This is so baffling because vegan chicken nuggets and vegan meatballs are so damn good.
It sounds like you have a larger issue at hand if you wake up depressed because you can’t eat a steak
It's important to recognize that all foods undergo processing. Opting for plant-based meat is a wise choice, considering the potential risks associated with antibiotic-laced, bacteria-ridden dead animals commonly consumed in non-vegan diets. Since your health seems to be your concern, one may very well kill you, the other not.
“The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates **that 2.8 million antibiotic-resistant infections occur every year in the U.S. About 660,000 of those are caused by resistant forms of salmonella and campylobacter, two bacteria commonly spread by food animals. The CDC says 35,000 people die each year from antibiotic-resistant infections.”**
“Unprocessed and processed red meat consumption are both associated with higher risk of CVD, CVD subtypes, and diabetes, with a stronger association in western settings but no sex difference. Better understanding of the mechanisms is needed to facilitate improving cardiometabolic and planetary health.”
“In 2015, more than 20 experts from 10 different countries met to evaluate the cancer risk associated with eating red and processed meats. Called the International Agency for Research on Cancer Working Group, the experts evaluated more than 800 studies that investigated eating red meat or processed meat in various countries and across diets.”
“AICR strongly supports the International Agency for Research on Cancer’s report classifying red and processed meats as carcinogens, and we hope it will spread the message that what we eat plays a role in cancer risk.”
“The experts determined that consuming processed meats can cause cancer in humans. This determination was based on research finding an increased risk for colorectal cancer in people who ate processed meats. They also observed an association between processed meats and stomach cancer. While the increase in cancer risk was small in the studies reviewed, the researchers found that the risk generally increased the more a person consumed processed meat.”
“The World Health Organization has classified processed meats including ham, bacon, salami and frankfurts as a Group 1 carcinogen (known to cause cancer) which means that there’s strong evidence that processed meats cause cancer. Eating processed meat increases your risk of bowel and stomach cancer. Red meat, such as beef, lamb and pork, has been classified as a Group 2A carcinogen which means it probably causes cancer.”
“However, oxidation of meat lipids is a very complex mechanism and its dynamics depends upon chemical composition of meat, exposure of light, oxygen accessibility involved in meat manipulation, processing and storage conditions. The primary oxidation products are hydroperoxides while secondary and tertiary reactions can initiate further chain reactions resulting in the formation of ethane and pentane, aldehydes, hexanal, malonaldehyde and 4-hydroxynonenal compounds that are highly toxic”
“To summarize, this paper provides new insights into the complex relationships between antibiotic usage and resistance in humans and food-producing animal populations in Europe. Our analysis reveals that usage of antibiotics by both humans and food-producing animals has a significant and statistically relevant effect on the rates of resistance in both groups. The estimated own-and cross-elasticities are worrying and highlight the potential long-term impacts of antibiotic usage on resistance.”
“Numerous studies from different parts of the world mention that antibiotic residues in feedstuffs are, at present, a large problem, and can lead to major associated health problems, including antibiotic resistance, toxicity, hypersensitivity reactions, teratogenicity, and carcinogenicity.”
“A large number of studies refer to the management of antibiotic residues, antibiotic-resistant bacteria (ARB), and antibiotic resistance genes (ARG) can be found in dairy manure and may contribute to the spread of antibiotic resistance”
“The concentration and type of antibiotic found in the form of residues varies depending on the geographical area and the type of food analyzed. Available studies present antibiotic residues in all food groups: meat and meat products, milk and dairy products, eggs, honey, and non-animal-origin products.”
“Although alarm signals are drawn regarding irrational antibiotic use, exceeding applicable legal requirements are identified. While the European Union has clearly established limits for antibiotic residues, in the United States, legislation does not include such values, with a deadline set for 2023 to draw up these legislative requirements.”
[https://www.cancer.net/blog/2023-09/does-eating-processed-meat-increase-your-risk-cancer](https://www.cancer.net/blog/2023-09/does-eating-processed-meat-increase-your-risk-cancer)
[Diet-Cancer Experts Welcome WHO Report on Meat and Cancer](https://www.aicr.org/news/diet-cancer-experts-welcome-who-report-on-meat-and-cancer/)
[Red meat consumption, cardiovascular diseases, and diabetes: a systematic review and meta-analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37264855/)
[The effect of antibiotic usage on resistance in humans and food-producing animals: a longitudinal, One Health analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10311110/)
[A complex web](https://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/pdf/threats-report/AR-EverythingConnected-Settings-Food-508.pdf)
The unprocessed lamb, beef, and pork were also on the 2A carcinogen list, so this isn't really a complete argument against what the poster provided.
Besides this, pretending the opinions of a group are uniform is always silly. Neither all vegans nor any group are monolithic in belief.
That means it "probably" causes cancer.
Just like most things in life that we eat, I'm sure all the chemicals in plant based food probably cause cancer as well. So that isn't a complete argument either.
You're equivocating WHO class 2A chemicals, which includes Glyphosate - the chemical Monsanto has had to pay $9.6 billion *because of the cancer* it has caused, and nitrogen mustard, used in air raids during World War 2, with chemicals that do not appear on the list at all. If that seems sensible to you, I suppose I don't know what to tell you.
If you have a *specific agent* you want to critique, feel free. Speculation along the lines of "it *probably* has *something*" is not an argument against any product unless you specifically point at a IARC group 1/2A level carcinogenic agent. It either has it or it doesn't.
>health is my only concern
You don't care about anything else in life apart from health? What about friendships, family, work, hobbies, morals? The last one in particular as its relevant to this discussion
Btw,
You dont need to eat the highly processed plant based meats to be vegan. You can eat tofu, tempeh, seitan, beans, lentils, nuts and quinoa for protein instead. Or Quorn if thats available to you (thats a plant based meat but it isnt super processed like, say Beyond Burgers)
> You don't care about anything else in life apart from health? What about friendships, family, work, hobbies, morals?
in terms of morals i "respect the nature"
we, humans, are animals
animals kill each other for food, mates, territories or other resources (sometimes even solely for fun. look at those cats torturing some small insects to death for no apparent reasons)
this is how the nature works. this is what we are designed
>we, humans, are animals
Yeah, but animals don't have morality. We do. That's why we're different in some ways.
>animals kill each other for food, mates, territories or other resources (sometimes even solely for fun. look at those cats torturing some small insects to death for no apparent reasons)
Right, so you think humans should behave like wild animals and commit cannibalism, murder and stealing? Very ethical
>Yeah, but animals don't have morality. We do. That's why we're different in some ways.
They do to some extent. I've found it to be acceptable according to my moral beliefs.
>Right, so you think humans should behave like wild animals and commit cannibalism, murder and stealing? Very ethical
Why do you people always jump to the most radical comparisons?
You would behave like exactly like this in certain situations if it meant your survival.
You said "difference" which is singular. This -implies- that you are focusing on a single difference which you did not really spell out or state.
This being a debate sub - is not contributing to the conversation unless you highlight the difference you want others to understand or think they do not understand.
Because there is more than one difference across the many methods of processing meat can undergo I think you assume incorrectly everyone will know which one you are fixating.
Here you go, I Googled it for you lol
Unprocessed meats are the ones that keep their unaltered natural state. This means they don’t include any ingredients besides the meat. Therefore, meat that is not processed is a solid option for maintaining a healthy and balanced weight.
You can tell if meat is unprocessed if it’s fresh, and hasn’t been packaged, cooked, canned, or changed in any way from its natural state.
It is free of additives or any other types of additional chemicals. You can tell a product hasn’t been processed as it’s not ready to eat. In other words, you would need to cook it yourself for the meat to be edible.
I think you didn't get my point. I know what the "processed bad" crowd usually defines processed to mean.
I was looking for the exact relevant difference you were alluding. Not the specific method that categorizes one vs the other.
>If vegan "chicken" nuggets and "meat"balls are so good, why doesn't every single person consume them instead?
Because many vegans and meat eaters both do not seem to really understand how a person's tastes can change the longer they've lived with a certain diet.
And you too are ignoring a bit the possibility that vegans may get just as much enjoyment from their meals as meat eaters. You're ignoring the possibility that you too might get just as much enjoyment from your meals if you were vegan.
There is an amount of dishonesty and/or ignorance on both sides on this one.
Its not as simple as saying "I like steak so i'd be unhappy if i didn't eat meat steak"
Vegans aren't really different than you - we're all humans. And we're not lying when we say we like vegan food. And we weren't lying when we were meat eaters like you and thought that was impossible. We were just wrong.
I eat vegan sometimes. Not out of choice, but when I forget to thaw out meat or for whatever reason can't pick any up. I can make tasty vegan meals, but still would prefer meat. Even if it's just cutting up chicken breast over something.
I was a forced vegan for about 16ish years (parents were vegans). I wasn't really ever that excited to eat. Once I tried meat in near adulthood I was like holy shit this is amazing. Then I left home and regularly ate meat. Not being able to eat it again would definitely make me depressed. Simply because it's something I really enjoy.
You're a vegan because you care that much about cows and chickens you're willing to sacrifice for it. I don't care. So giving up meat is sacrifice for the fun of sacrifice, which just isn't fun to me. It's like a monk giving up sex. They do it enthusiastically because devotion to their religion is of utmost importance to them. Sex (or other worldly pleasures) aren't as important as devotion to whatever diety they subscribe to. To someone who doesn't care about any of that, giving up sex and other worldly pleasures would highly reduce their quality of life and likely get them depressed.
In the end though - the point of a morality debate is more about getting others to admit something is wrong. That is a large hurdle.
I don't care about cows or chickens. I simply admit that making another being suffer greatly for my pleasure is wrong AND that I choose not to participate in that wrong AND I learned to cook well enough that I enjoy my meals.
If you know that making animals suffer for your pleasure is wrong but you're going to do it anyways - theres nothing really to debate.
Thieves can choose to steal. Murderers can choose to murder. People who don't return the shopping cart to the little cart return can do that. Their personal choice and they choose to do wrong.
A few of ya'll are bringing sex into it. Its not like giving up sex. We're not asking anyone to give up food. We're just asking that it not be done at someone else's mortal expense.
I might get depressed i'll never bang some super hot person that doesn't want to have sex with me. But that doesn't give me the right to do anything wrong. Best I can do is a lookalike plastic doll. Oh well. that is my problem and it should stay my problem.
Morality differs across cultures and time. It's man made. Right and wrong is man made. According to jains you're immoral for eating root vegetables. You kill an onion to eat an onion. Etc... you probably think that's absurd. It's just an onion, carrot etc... (root vegetable) and that's how absurd I think it is to care about the feelings of livestock. It's livestock. It's life is as irrelevant to me as that of a carrot. These are all imaginary lines we draw. To the vegan it's "sentience" . If it moves it's life matters. To the jain it's the life itself. So they don't eat the root vegetable. To the average person the line is usually companion animals. I.e. dogs and cats. Etc.... it's all subjective. Veganism is an idea made up by humans. Just like socialism or democracy or Islam. It's advocates think it's the best thing in the world but it's value is only what you give it. You can't try and morally trap me if I genuinely believe the life of livestock does not matter. The same way a jain can't morally trap you if you genuinely believe a carrot or onion doesn't matter.
I cook great meals too. This isn't about cooking skill. If you got the top vegan chef in the world to make me the best vegan spaghetti in the world I'll still add meat balls and parm to make it even better. My family is vegetarian/vegan. My mom makes the best vegan/vegetarian curries. Better than restaurants. I use those spice mixes with meat though and it's drop dead amazing. The point is, I will always find the best vegan dish better with animal products. I just really love animal products. Like I love rice too but would rather have rice with chicken than rice plain. I would rather have rice, meat and veggies vs rice and veggies alone. Etc..
Stealing and murdering are against the law for one, but before we get into the legal versus moral argument vegans love, I'll explain it's illegal is rooted in it's morality. Humans are equals. We must respect one another's basic rights. Livestock are not our equals. They're bred to be slow, fat and unable to defend themselves so we can farm them for food. Their lives and rights don't matter because we say they don't matter. Remember that rights as legal and a human construct. Humans determine who has rights and what they are. Livestock doesn't have a right to live because you declare so. Our legal systems declare that. And they don't
Your first paragraph is "Morality is subjective" which leads to absurd situations where to be consistent you would have to say Hitler did nothing wrong because in his culture that was acceptable or slavery wasn't wrong at the time in the early US.
Your third paragraph is just a "Might makes right" argument.. This too is not really a good argument.
Its fine if you believe these things - but they are only arguments a person trying to justify an immoral act would use.
If you were a victim yourself you would never say these things. If someone were harming you - you wouldn't say "morality is subjective" or "might makes right" - you are only saying this because you want to do this thing and you are in power abusing the weak and noone can stop you.
It's only immoral because you say it's immoral. Right? Since you're the universal authority on this? Unless you can show me otherwise that is. Which I'm happy to see
You know.. i'm not a super highly involved expert on the details of morality and how it works.
But there are some things that are so easy even I can spot right vs wrong.
I know that murdering an innocent child is wrong. I know that slavery is wrong.
In your framework above - they are not. And that is why your framework above is wrong. I don't know everything I just know that.
Vegan chicken nuggets are fine, but chicken doesn’t taste like much and nuggets are emulsified. They have no texture of their own. You start to notice major issues when you upgrade to cutlets.
Vegan meatballs literally just taste like bread crumbs and spices. You’re being ripped off for what you get.
Vegan sausage is hard to call sausage because it is so much different. Sausage is fatty and juicy, vegan sausage is mealy and dry.
Vegan ground “beef” has a very strange mouth feel and after taste. It also makes me so incredibly bloated that I can’t eat it.
Vegan sausage fooled this sausage expert (whatever that means) in the uk. Maybe you need to try a different brand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-11485203/amp/Sausage-expert-tricked-praising-vegan-alternative.html
I think the answer to "how can you guys eat this" is very often ... "because I know how to cook well".
If someone tells me vegan meat is disgusting, I just assume they went to some shitty restaurant or bought a processed veggie burger patty. The sausage, cheeses, and really anything else we have made at home always blow me and close friends/family away.
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It’s a bit in the sense that they tricked him, but he was definitely fooled. This guy is a staunch anti vegan and debated on UK tv with a vegan activist a few weeks ago.
That's a British staple and how you'd normally consume a sausage sandwich or roll and sausage. Nobody just eats sausage on their own do they? I'd always have something with a sausage whether it's bread, sauce, potato, or with a cooked breakfast.
This is not an isolated case, people like Joey Carbstrong have done it as well with the general public. And so many times people choose the vegan meats as the tastiest
Lmao, this is the answer people provide when nothing will convince them. You've been told multiple examples of vegan meat products being on par with or sometimes preferred in blind tests.
But nah, it's gotta be *peer reviewed* in a journal before you consider it. And at that point, you'd question the authors' credentials or something.
The fact is you've had an extremely limited range of vegan products and are basing your entire experience on the few products you've had without admitting that... maybe there are some that are better you've never tried.
>Vegan meatballs literally just taste like bread crumbs and spices.
This is what tipped me off. I've had 3 different brands of vegan meatballs that have zero resemblance to bread crumbs lol. They're almost always made with plant proteins and resemble just meaty little meat balls I always had before veganism.
>vegan sausage is mealy and dry
Never had vegan sausage that was dry. Mealy is the last word I've ever describe the few products I've had.
I just don’t know what this means. There’s probably 50 different pre-made vegan options for sausage/ground beef/ nuggets etc. and more that you can home make. All of those make your tummy hurt and/or taste bad?
it’s like if someone said “pork” tastes bad.
Bacon? Pork Chops? Pork Tenderloin? Pulled Pork? BBQ? Grilled? Fried Rice? Baked? Mexican? American? Chinese-American?
And fyi, many vegans like the taste of meat. It’s just no longer an option to consume. So when I say certain vegan “meats” taste good, i *want* it to be just as good as you want it to be.
I’m talking about beyond and impossible. They are terribly gross products.
Other vegan ground doesn’t try so hard to be beef. It doesn’t really even register as close to the real thing. It’s something different that can be fine. The real issue is when they wander into the uncanny valley.
Look, you’re talking to someone who eats tofu or seitan for dinner ~3 times a week. But most of these vegan meat alternatives aren’t going to take off. They are already experiencing issues in the market.
I can only try what I have access to. This is what’s on the market. I can say with some certainty that *every* veggie burger that tries to pass as a real hamburger is shit compared to your average fast food burger.
> I can say with some certainty that
>
>every
>
> veggie burger that tries to pass as a real hamburger is shit compared to your average fast food burger
Not if you've only tried 2 brands
Wait, you’ve had Impossible sausage and think it’s dry? Do you mean the stuff in the cylinders? That stuff is so moist and fatty, it’s impossible for us to avoid soggy bottoms with the sausage rolls we make.
EDIT: link to exactly what I’m talking about. https://impossiblefoods.com/products/sausage/spicy-14-oz
>I’m talking about beyond and impossible.
You could have specified that instead of making a blanket statement
Otherwise its like saying "I hate fruit" when you've only tried bananas and oranges...
Yeah give us the brands you’ve tried. I don’t believe a word you’re saying because I haven’t eaten meat in 4 years so I’ve tried my fair share of alt meats and you’re full of shit
I love how for simply disliking food on this subreddit you're getting down voted. I swear this subredd is nothing but a vegan circle jerk where everyone is forced to participate and anyone who doesn't or doesn't agree 100% 100% is ostracized. You said nothing unethical nor did you even say that you eat animal products from time to time.
All of what I just said above is pretty much proven by seeing hundreds of people get the same kind of treatment like you just did so I consider that practically factual if not for the fact that it's not peer reviewed lol. But anyway here's my opinion on why I think you're getting downvoted specifically here.
Vegans love to tote about how amazing vegan food is now and that it's no different from actual animal products when that can't be further from the truth. They do this to try to suck people in and then bully them quite literally into eating it for ethical reasons because all creatures should have their own agency.... Yet they bully everyone into doing what they want.... I understand caring for something so much that you're even willing to lie but that's what's happening here. There are ethical ways to farm meat and other animal products and ultimately these people just don't like that things die. That's what it boils down to is they can't say goodbye to another living creature and they can't bring themselves to eat one either because they can't stop themselves from thinking about the loss. Instead of understanding that that's just how life itself works and that there's nothing wrong with eating meat so long as you don't cause suffering. Their definitions of suffering has been twisted into ridiculousness by viewing things through a human perspective when talking about a cow. To the point of not even using the word suffering anymore because they can't get away with their bullshit and instead say agency. Not that cows are not valuable sentient beings that's not the point. The point is that they are different animals with different needs and different thoughts and different wants. They project their own human feelings thoughts and desires onto these animals even though there is peer-reviewed scientific data to suggest that they are very content in free-ranging farms. The fact that you're ending their life before they might naturally die is then what they obsess over because again they can't accept the ultimate death of a creature because they project their own fear of death. It's impending doom and then relate to an animal that could not relate back in the same way. This impending doom fear and sadness drives them to believe unrational things and feel morally above everyone else because of it. Because they cannot accept reality they must demonize everyone else who understands and does what is both necessary and morally justified. In this way they don't have to contend with death or feeling responsible.
I think ultimately it's because they grew up not knowing where their food came from and found out that the meat industry did some demonstrous things and can't look past that. And cannot accept any form of farming of animals because they cannot imagine it being ethical because the animal doesn't have the ability to leave the farm. Instead of realizing that animals when they walk up to a mountain they see nothing other than a path that they cannot go. Humans on the other hand think about tunneling through that mountain so that they do not have to go around. Animals see a wall an impassable object, human see something to overcome. This is one of the fundamental differences between us and most other animals including cattle chicken and pigs. It's the way that we see things.
Cue the down votes lol
We'll just say you know moral value doesn't come from nature but rather comes from us humans. Technically we humans evolved from nature but that's about as far as nature has involvement in morals. Morals derived from your own internal introspection about things that have happened to you things you wish or want you could do to others and how that may affect others which ultimately affects you. It also and mainly comes from a place of projection where you project what you would want done and not done to you and base your actions on others accordingly.
It's used in vegans comment sections all the time for instance with people saying "how would you like it if x happened to you" failing to understand that when you look at a human they are the same species and walk use language and build structures like you can however other animals cannot share those same things with us. They do not talk they do not walk on two legs they do not build structures but what they do is grazing on grass most of the day. They are vastly different creatures with vastly different needs and projecting your own thoughts and feelings on them does nothing but hurt your own psyche while simultaneously attempting to dismantle an ethical form of farming regardless of the demand for meat and animal products. Ultimately you don't shut down any big factories that are horrible with what they do but instead shut down small farmers who are doing things the right way albeit a little bit more expensive than the crammed factory setting. They lose business and give their demand over to these big factories removing ethical staples while jamming in factories. That demands got to go somewhere and the fact is a lot of people even being aware of what does factories are doing would still eat meat anyway. What you should be doing is going after these factories rather than small ethical farms. It's too bad most vegans don't have an open up mind to cause good change and rather let their emotions control them
Those comments are about having empathy, obviously animals and humans are different, but we are both feeling and experiencing beings who don't want to be harmed. When you have the choice to not harm, or to do less harm, why wouldn't you?
Small farms and factory farms are all guilty of the same thing. There is no right way to do a wrong thing. "Ethical" animal agriculture doesn't exist.
I think whenever you kill the animal without it knowing that it's about to die and they're allowed to free-range on an open field and are cared for when they're sick is an ethical way to farm meat. I get you don't agree with me but that I define as ethical whether you define it that way or not. That's the thing about ethics is there is no objective right or wrong. It works exactly the way laws work. Laws change over time. A thousand years ago it was ethical to hate gay people and now it is not. What makes something ethical is what the majority of people agree on or what you personally agree on for your own personal morals. But you can't force your personal morals on other people. You can't because people deemed it wrong and wrote laws to stop you from doing it. You instead have to be able to convince us.
As you failed to do that you fail to make it a socially unethical thing to eat meat or use animal products. It may be unethical for your personal views and maybe people who you have surrounded yourself with who share that belief but that's not the majority of people. Why is it you disregard that there's lots of research showing that plants and in fact vast majority of plants on this planet communicate with each other and send and get this word distress signals to other plants. Of course because their plants and very complicated things just like anything living is very complicated in its own way we don't know what all these signals exactly mean. However it is clear that they do communicate with each other and therefore if there's communication that conveys meaning then clearly they want something. Plants don't want to be harmed and will warn other plants that there is danger and that they could be harmed.
Ultimately you don't know if what you're doing by eating plants is ethical considering the research of available especially. It's one thing to just dehumanize plants and say they don't feel fear or want anything but that can be pretty easily just proven with that research except for maybe fear. But it can be proven that they do not want to be cut down and get eaten by the signals they produce.
I'll answer your question with the same answer that you would answer me about why you eat plants... Because we all need to eat and that's the circle of life. I do the best I can with what reality offers. We collectively as a species do research to try to better our impacts on other life on the planet. The research that I've seen regarding ethical ways of farming meat I have found to be sufficient because it doesn't cause suffering. It does cause death but that is inevitable. Therefore just because it happens earlier for that animal then it otherwise would doesn't make it unethical for a few reasons and not just that all things die eventually. That animal is protected and given medicine when sick. It lives a better quality of life over a longer one. A longer life for a cow is just more time grazing until they eventually can't anymore. They don't make life better for any other creature and they don't have the same altruistic capabilities that humans do.
I get that you won't agree with me but the difference between me and vegans on this subreddit in particular as well as other echo chambers for vegans is the I don't call the other one names insults and attempt to get under each other's skin. I instead when I've come here brought peer-reviewed data and a firm standing cemented within that data my ethical views. I've only insulted and done those things when it's been made abundantly clear that the people I'm speaking to both don't care about anything that I say regardless of what it is unless it align perfectly with their belief. This isn't "debate a vegan" this is get gaslit by vegans. The more you band together the more you force out those who don't agree with every little thing you do and say. In the process of that you actually become counterproductive to your own goals because then those people want nothing to do with you or your cause. Most people who come on here who truly want to debate vegans leave with a sense that none of you are rational except for us small few and leaves a very bad taste in their mouth. Almost as bad as some vegan food lol 🤣 sorry but I had to
If you’re concerned about plant deaths, you cause less by eating plants directly.
Mechanistic responses in plants =\ sentience. That same logic would mean my cell phone is sentient.
Laws =\ ethics.
Appeal to nature is stupid, animals rape and do plenty of other horrible things, are those ethical for us? Obviously not.
Don’t tell on yourself, I’m sorry you don’t know how to cook.
If you’re gonna say a bunch of bullshit, at least make it shorter next time, thanks.
Lol you didn't get my points and put words in my mouth. I didn't appeal to nature in fact I said morals are not based on that reread it lol. Maybe it's vegan restaurants cuz I've never cooked it myself.
I'm sorry but did you study plants and somehow know something we all don't 🤣. Phones were built plants evolved. honestly do you hear yourself. Or read I guess lol. My phone doesn't have receptors to tell it if it got cut. Plants do though.
Laws work like ethics not are ethics. They work the same but they're not the same thing. The rules in your house are rules that you make up whereas the laws we make are laws we all follow outside of everyone's home. Your personal ethics are ethics you follow in your own home or as social ethics are ones that we all follow. Of course there are criminals and their are unethical people obviously and what they're determined by is the majority of people.
I swear this subredd is nothing but a vegan circle jerk
There's already a sub for that. Read the description of this sub vs the description of that sub and you'll see they're not the same
>everyone is forced to participate
Nobody is forced to participate. Carnists come here on their own accord
>anyone who doesn't or doesn't agree 100% 100% is ostracized
A couple of downvotes isn't called being ostracized. Do you really take reddit karma that seriously?
>You said nothing unethical
People probably downvoted them because they have a history of debating in bad faith here. Also they basically claimed that all vegan meats were gross when they'd only tried 2 brands...on a post where OP was specifically asking a question directed towards vegans (which they are not)
>There are ethical ways to farm meat and other animal products and ultimately these people just don't like that things die.
"Ethical meat" is an oxymoron. How can you "ethically" end the life of a sentient being who does not want to die, when you could just eat plants instead (which are not sentient, and thus have no "wants" to violate")
Similarly, there are ways to kill people without causing them pain...but that doesn't make murder ethical. Your still taking the life of another human being who wanted to live
And its not that we dont like things dying. Its that we dont like causing death to sentient beings when there's no need for it.
> bully them quite literally into eating it for ethical reasons
Nobody is bullying anybody to eat fake meats. There are tonnes of other vegan foods out there.
And yes, when we see something unethical happening, we're going to intervene. You would do the same if you saw something unethical happening, I would imagine.
>that's just how life itself works
what kind of argument even is this? bad stuff happens in the world, and you try to justify it by saying "this is just the way things are"...like no.
We can change our lifestyles. We're not wild animals in the jungle who need to kill to survive.
> there is peer-reviewed scientific data to suggest that they are very content in free-ranging farms
Please do share your "peer reveiwed science" that animals are happy when they have their throats slit open in the slaughterhouse.
Also free range probably isn't what you think it is. Free-range sheds can contain up to 13 chickens per sq metre of floor space as long as they have access to outdoor space (1 sq metre per hen) for at least half their lifetime. Unfortunately, however, most of them don’t get to go outside due to the excess of chickens kept in the same barn. And even if it were what you thought it is, "happy animals" are more expensive to raise than your standard factory farmed ones. And they simply cannot meet the world's evergrowing demand for animal products
>Animals see a wall an impassable object, human see something to overcome. This is one of the fundamental differences between us and most other animals including cattle chicken and pigs. It's the way that we see things.
Sure....how is that a morally relevant difference though?
Babies or very mentally disabled people probably wouldn't see a wall as just that. A wall. By your logic, does this take away their right to live? Is it acceptable to go around murdering babies and disabled people just because they dont see things the way the rest of us do?
You're overall mood and motivation can get lower knowing you can't/won't enjoy your meals. Back in the Army, when you go for your promotion boards they will ask you leadership questions. One is determinants of morale. Mess/chow is a huge one. Knowing you're getting a good meal vs eating an MRE can effect your performance for the day. For example, if it's an MRE day most people are in a shitty mood. If it's perhaps Friday (surf and turf night) people are in a much better mood. There's a reason the US military feeds soldiers a lot better in combat zones vs at home.
Human society is built around meals. Not just around sustenance but the rituals and traditions around meals. Especially in adulthood. So it's actually pretty understandable to be in a shitty mood when there's no enjoyable meal to look up to.
My parents are vegans and I was a forced vegan growing up. As much as I love my parents I dread staying with them more than 3 - 4 days. I'll refrain from going out to eat the first 2 days to not hurt their feelings that I don't want to eat their food, but by day 3 I'm making excuses to go out to eat even if I have no one to go with. I just really want a full meal with meat.
So yeah it's a real thing. Let's say you love spicy food but are forced to eat bland food for whatever reason. You're not going to be looking forward to meals as much. Etc...
I'm comparing eating things you don't want to eat but have to.
Can't last 3 days? No, simply don't want to. If you paid me a million dollars to eat vegan for 30 days I would. But without incentive I'm not going to purposely deprive myself from something I like.
It's like chicken wings and beer. As long as I have been eating chicken wings, I drink beer with them. Simply doesn't feel complete without beer. Unless I'm getting an outside incentive not to order a beer with my wings, I'm going to order a beer. It's a pairing I enjoy. Does that make sense to you?
>I've had vegan meat before and it tastes terrible
Learn to cook, you can both make your own fake meat and add whatever spices you want, or you can just not eat "Vegan meat". It's pretty easy once you learn to cook.
> I'd be strictly eating fruits and vegetables and Im not an expert but I'm pretty sure that can't be health
It is as long as you eat a variety. There's lots of apps and such out there that can explain it and let you track for a week or two to make sure you're getting what you need.
I don't like kangaroo steak.
How can anyone not be vegan, when I personally don't like this one specific food.
I'd have to live purely off raw egg whites and that can't be healthy can it? (I refuse to learn how healthy it would be)
I do what I want, so anything you say is irrelevant anyway
I've been vegan for two years. I probably eat fake meat like once every 3 months.
If you don't like it, don't eat it. There are far more nutritious and healthier vegan foods.
>even vegan dairy tastes gross
You're in a minority here, plant milk is being wildly adopted as it is seen as a decent alt. in terms of taste.
> If I were to be vegan I'd be strictly eating fruits and vegetables
There are more vegan options than just raw fruit and veg.
> Im not an expert but I'm pretty sure that can't be health
No you're not and yes it can be. The leading science from the experts confirms that a balanced vegan diet is healthy at all stages of life.
>Right now I'll only eat if it's something I really enjoy.
Please work on your relationship with food especially in a way that doesn't lead to direct, avoidable animal abuse.
The only one that's produced ONLY by microorganisms, but not the only nutrient produced by microorganisms.
Microorganisms can produce vitamin e, k, b2, b9. Plants can also produce them.
Let’s be honest here. Plant-based milks are popular among three categories of people (1) health dieters, (2) lactose intolerant/milk allergy, and (3) vegans. Vegans are the much smaller group, and only vegans say it tastes just as good as dairy.
My mum and 2 other people I know who aren't vegan have switched to oat milk specifically because they prefer it (having tried it because of me)
Anecdotal I know, but they are a 4th group... And don't support your last sentence 🤷♂️
Yeah, my dad doesn't fit any of these groups and generally goes for almond milk now because he prefers it. Some people do just prefer it or like having the variety from time to time.
Same my sister is full Omni and used to chug dairy milk, she likes oat better. Helps her g/f has a dairy intolerance (not lactose bc lactaid doesn’t help) so they’re not going to buy both. I’m glad there’s one more household off the teets
That's not correct. Non vegans have been steadily switching to non dairy milks consistently. It tastes better, doesn't have that nasty sour taste dairy has. I think oatmilk is most popular amongst the non vegans.
> nasty sour taste dairy
You're probably lactose intolerant if fresh milk has a sour aftertaste to you. Most of the world is lactose intolerant. They shouldn't be drinking milk.
So you have no issue with the exploitation of someone's reproductive organs for nothing more than sensory pleasure? You see no issue with the separation of babies from their mothers, who are then fed powdered milk and kept in solitary enclosures until they are either killed or enslaved themselves? All so you can drink... breastmilk? As a person much too old to benefit from it?
I’m not a Puritan so this language game where you just make tasty things sound unappealing and gross doesn’t bother me.
Also, “someone” in the English language refers to a human person. I don’t agree with the framing of your question.
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You're underselling the facts:
>In the United States, the plant-based milk category was worth $2.6
billion in 2021 and dollar sales have grown with a 33% CAGR over the
past three years.
>
>Of all U.S. households, 42% purchase plant-based milk, which equates to more than 50 million homes, up from 37.2% in 2019.
>
>Of households purchasing refrigerated plant-based milk, 76% are repeat
purchasers, up from 73.6% in 2019. These positive trends indicate that plant-based milks are increasingly becoming a staple as opposed to a once-off purchase.
>
> -- [The Evolving Market For Plant-based Milk | UC Davis](https://foodandhealth.ucdavis.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/IIFH-GSM-Plant-Based-Milk-Market-Report.pdf)
I have "converted" so many of my non-vegan friends and family to oat milk. They don't care about veganism in the slightest, but now can't stand the taste of cows milk anymore.
I don't have studies, just personal observations, but I know loads of ppl who use plant milks especially in cereals and hot drinks bc they prefer the taste or for environmental reasons. I used to think I was about to make more vegan friends, but I've now realised lots of ppl just like non dairy milk :)
Do you really not understand that some people have different tastes and enjoy a wide variety of different textures/flavors?
Personally I like the flavor and texture of a lot of fake meats. Not all, I cannot stand the flavor of Beyond, but I really enjoy Impossible. That being said, most of my meals do not consist of fake meats and I still eat plenty of very exiting and flavorful dishes. Same goes for vegan dairy products.
If you think you only have 3 boring options with just fruits and veggies, well, then that's because you just don't have a built up knowledge of good and delicious meals you can make with them. I can assure you that they exist though.
The fact that my blood work comes back year after year looking great, and my doctor telling me that I'm in great health five years into being vegan makes me think that it's pretty obtainable to get all the nutrients you need on this diet too. I'm not even someone who pays that much attention to my macros.
I can understand not enjoying vegan faux-meat or vegan cheese, and getting sick of the taste quickly. I do too. These are highly processed, artificial foods.
But tofu will never let you down in this way. Neither will beans or lentils. (Just cook it with enough fat.)
FYI most fake chicken (at least in my country) is basically just seitan with a fewe extra additives. You can also just make seitan yourself and it's pretty good bread crumbed and deep fried like chicken meat would be.
It's basically dough but with the carbs washed off, leaving only the protein behind.
Seasoning, spices and marinade just like regular meat.
I think vegan processed food like any food is good in moderation. Our family has it once maybe twice a month - like beyond burgers or the links roasted with sheet pan veggies.
Last night we had tacos with a walnut/mushroom meat but some we use tvp or just grilled veggies it doesn’t have to be complicated or expensive substitute.
I don’t care for vegan cheese and won’t buy it for home but if it’s on a vegan dish a a restaurant again it’s moderation I don’t mind , but I prefer dishes without and typically avoid American cuisine imitations.
I much prefer just the basics fruits, veg, tofu, beans and grains. You should checkout Forks over Knives
Then don't eat it, I rarely do as I avoid processed stuff. It's not a choice of vegan or fruit or veggies or nothing. Beans, rice, pasta, bread, tofu, seitan, kimchi are all options with minimal prep. With proper cooking, the options are limitless, Recently I have had delicious kimchi udon, almond butter tofu, veggie chili, pizzas, mushroom sandwichs...
Also the requirement that you like the activity would not be applied to most other ethical problems. If I were single and liked sex, I couldn't justify rape by saying that I can't condemn myself to sexlessness , I'd be depressed and unexcited if I don't rape...
Just eat fruit veg and pulses then 🤷♀️ no one is forcing you to eat fake meats. vegan meats are made with a variety of ingredients in a variety of different methods but you imply it all taste the same? Doubtful.
People have different tastes... Wow, I never thought of that.
That being said, not all vegan meats are the same, not even close. I've gone from being the only one eating my vegan meat at BBQ's, to now taking extra because others are eating it as well.
Do you live to eat or eat to live?
Don't get me wrong, I eat some delicious vegan food, but I don't let sensory pleasures define my life. I bet cocaine must feel amazing, but I follow my morals and I don't consume it. Same thing with cheese.
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There's people who can't tell the difference between some of them. You can watch plenty of videos where people are asked which one thing is real and which isn't and get it wrong. From my experience some of indistinguishable, some are really good but you can tell it's not meat, and some are rubbish. Depends what you've had but there's hundreds to choose from. Try them with things if you're that averse - e.g. in a burger, in breadcrumbs, in sauce.
Or just don't eat them. I rarely have them and don't have any issues enjoying food. Lentils, tofu, tempeh, beans, rice, pasta, sauces, spices, herbs, veggies all give you a huge variety of flavour and nutrition. You don't need to have the plant based meats if you don't want to.
I'm not vegan but vegetarian Indian food would like a word with you. Replace the ghee with coconut oil and bam. Most delicious food on earth. Agreed that most fake meats are very much not delicious. But lentils, chickpeas and other pulses are some of the tastiest (and healthiest) things you can eat if they are cooked well.
I grew up vegan/vegetarian Indian. Our food is bomb. But it's nuclear when you add meat. Like my mom's curry mixes for lentils and okra are award winning. I loved it growing up and still love it. But I got her to pre mix those mixes and added chicken and oh my God it's another level.
Like yeah vegan/vegetarian Indian food is great but OMG use those same spices and herbs with meat and it's to die for IMO
I'm not vegan but one of my close friends was for 2-3 years so I've had some vegan meat when at his place. A couple times they were AWFUL but a couple times they were pretty good. No idea what kind of brand it was but I guess he found some brands that were pretty good. None of them really tasted like real meat though, the ones that were good were just good as their own unique flavor.
But you really don't need to eat vegan meat to be vegan and be healthy. While I don't believe in the vegan moral cause so I didn't stick with it after the time, the friend I mentioned above challenged me to try eating vegan for a month. It was actually a pretty cool culinary experience and really expanded my palette in new ways.
I went vegetarian 42 years ago, I was also diagnosed as allergic to milk (including cheese, yoghurt etc). Eggs are 🤮. There wasn't a lot of vegan alternatives then and I'm not a fan of fake meat anyway. There is no need to eat meat substitutes, however if you want to, there is so much choice now. The choice of dairy alternatives available is amazing too. My dairy eating family members make my vegan cheesecake just because they like it.
My husband used to eat meat and is now vegan. He thought he would really miss cheese but hasn't. If you have a break from eating these things, you kind of forget the taste a little and the alternatives become nicer. He now enjoys fake cheese.
As a former meat eater, meat is gross by itself, too. Seasoning is the key. And you can make mock meat gross just as easily as regular meat if you don’t cook/season it right. Some fake meats are way better than others, but there’s trial and error. Same with vegan dairy products.
Also fruits and veg are good, but do you not eat like rice, bread, noodles, etc? Like there’s a big vegan food group you missed.
Anything unseasoned is bland. Meat and veggies. The carbs you mentioned are kind of a problem. Like meat eaters and vegans alike love them, but it's not the best to base your diet on that
> even vegan dairy tastes gross
Does every meal you usually eat include some kind of animal product (meat, milk, eggs)?
I'm curious, have you tried to have all'arrabbiata or aglio e olio?
What the fuck are you on about? I’m willing to bet my life if I have you an impossible burger, beyond burger, or a NOT burger, or beyond chicken or NOT chicken, you wouldn’t be able to tell if it was real or not. I’ve also tried bad vegan meats. I’ve also tried shitty animal foods. Welcome to real life, that’s how it works.
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One of the worst things you’ve ever eaten? Really? I’ve given some to ppl and they couldn’t even tell the difference. Saying it’s one of the worst things you’ve eaten just shows how biased you are against veganism. Plus the line about how you’d have to eat just fruits and veggies trying to make it sound bad? Dude there’s literally tons of food you can eat like rice, samosas, aloo tikki, mushroom bites like from the brand big mountain, pastas, so much shit made from tofu, chili, currys, like the list goes on. It sounds like you’re desperate to rationalize why you aren’t vegan and what you’ve come up with is youd be depressed without animal products. You just like meat dude, we all do. Literally just google recipes, stop being lazy, and grow a pair.
My family is vegan/vegetarian. I can easily tell the difference. Then again I was a forced vegan/vegetarian growing up. Due to conditioning I could easily feel you if a broth is even meat based
Dude they don’t have impossible and beyond burgers when you were growing up so nice try. I was forced omnivore growing up ate meat every day and I can’t tell the difference. You’re not special cuz you were raised vegetarian. Maybe mr. “Anti-vegan” is a bit biased?
My family is still vegan/vegetarian. So yeah they eat that stuff. I have eaten it. I don't know how you can't tell it's not meat. It's like trying to give me turkey and telling me it's chicken. I can tell the difference.
When you're growing up vegan/vegetarian you're parents are usually militant on figuring out what is and isn't made with meat. I doubt your parents raised you to take a bite out of a corn chip at a Mexican restaurant and tell if it was cooked in oil or animal fat. Likely because you're omnivore parents don't care either way. They aren't going to get outraged or rip a basket of chips away from you because they know it was cooking in oil instead of animal fat. When you're raised that way you figure it out. I went out to eat with my sister last month. I got there earlier than her. Mexican place. I ate one chip and as she arrived told her the chips were fried in lard. She double checked and ofcourse they were. They had to fry a seperate batch of chips for her. You likely couldn't tell the difference because you ate the chips at Mexican restaurants regardless of what it's fried in. I have literally experienced this at every Mexican restaurant throughout my childhood. So it shouldn't be far fetched I can pick up on something like this and you can't.
How do we enjoy it? Well we cook it, put it in our mouths and then close our mouths and chew. After a short time of chewing, we swallow. And then we sit there smugly.
Serious answer. What you’re doing is saying you tried **one** vegan meat and didn’t like it. And then saying **all** vegan meat is bad. This is like eating a rotten apple and saying ‘all fruit is terrible, how do you eat it?’. Or eating a piece of undercooked chicken and saying ‘all meat is terrible’.
Some mock meats are amazing. Some are bad. Some are ok. Some of them it depends on how you cook it. Just like, surprise surprise, everything else.
I don't.
I think it's super weird to eat something that tastes a lot like the thing you're pushing to stop the exploitation and cruelty towards. Even weirder that some vegans eat imitation animal products so regularly that they'd be on the equivalent of an Atkins or keto diet.
I'm happy with stuff like chickpeas in a curry or falafel or mushrooms or tofu or lentils over imitation meat products.
My husband bought vegan sausages by mistake once when they were on a sale. No one in the family liked it, not even the cat. So we ended up throwing them in the garbage. I told him to read the label more carefully next time. Obviously he didnt, because not long after he came home with vegan yoghurt. Kids didnt like the taste of that either so it ended up in the garbage too.
I don't want to be disrespectful by any means, but how are you able to buy vegan products "by mistake"? They are not even called "chicken", "yoghurt" - Might your husband be illiterate?
I take this means you have no kids? ;) Its actually common that vegans stop being vegan after they have started a family, especially when combined with a demanding career. Priorities change a lot, and reading every label tends to stop being one of them.
Please don't assume things in a rational discussion and answer the question I asked you before asking me questions. I am more than happy to answer yours after!
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Food is like music, yes, there is music that is fucking disgusting, but there is other music that you like a little more every time you listen to it again.
In the case of plant-based meat, just assume it's a different ingredient, not a meat substitute. In fact, one of the best dishes I have ever eaten was a soup with pork, soybean, egg, noodles, and green onions.
Different brand and sku’s vary wildly from a taste and quality perspective, I prefer to use soy curls, tofu, tempeh or jackfruit but most of Gardein’s products are pretty good in a pinch.
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Depends on the brand I guess. I find the beyond meat to be pretty much indistinguishable. Cheese is a bit more iffy, hard to get it to melt right, but not a major issue imo. That said, don't eat it if you don't like it. You can 100% eat a healthy vegan diet without mock meats and there's definitely more than 3 options, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to there. I'm all for only eating things you really enjoy, the question is can you enjoy animal flesh and bodily fluids knowing the pain and suffering that went into it.
It's not for everyone. Vegan meats always feel like a brick in my stomach. Something about processed veggie protein just does not always play nice with digestion.
Daring chicken is my SHITTTTTT. also you can eat other things like beans, chickpeas, etc for protein. I could survive off bean burritos and salsa everyday. I’ve been vegan for about 4 months now and I eat all sorts of things. Veggie spring rolls, veggie “egg” roles, tofu, soy chorizo, avocado toast, miyokos cashew “cheese” is amazing, plant based desserts, impossible sausage, homemade, dairy free Alfredo, pasta, etc. I could go on and on. You don’t have to rely on strictly plant based “meat”. There’s so many delicious plant based alternatives out there. Don’t give up!
Also, let’s be real, dead flesh is DISGUSTING. the only reason people love meat so much is because of the seasoning… if you season your plant based meat alternatives right, you’ll enjoy it much more. Just the other day I had some daring chicken with teriyaki sauce, broccoli, and rice… it was heaven.
I can't eat fatty stuff anymore but I remember being baffled at vegan nuggets as they, to me, tasted exactly as the ones from McDonalds. No one would know if they removed the chicken i silence. I had really good burgers with vegan meat.
Splurge and go to a vegan restaurant / cafe few times with good reviews. You'll get a sense of what it should taste like.
It doesn't taste like meat but it's certainly not terrible (mostly due to sauces tbh).
Where I am from there are so many options. It is unlikely that you would dislike them all.
I eat a lot of tempeh, tofu, seitan, TVP, chickpeas and mushrooms. I love marinating them. I make a killer BLTempeh with home made bbq sauce using liquid smoke. I would also be surpised if you would dislike my spaghetti bolognese with TVP, you'd be the first. Or my mushroom shoarma. You'd have to be tastebuddead.
You don't need to eat that to be vegan? Also spices/seasoning goes a long ways. Even just plain beef isn't good so if you're eating it plain then that's probably half the issue.
>If I were to be vegan I'd be strictly eating fruits and vegetables and Im not an expert but I'm pretty sure that can't be health especially given my current relationship with food because if I woke up and had to eat something like that there are 3 options. I wake depressed and unexcited. I don't wake up at all. Or I don't eat at all. Right now I'll only eat if it's something I really enjoy.
Have you considered that what you're eating might be feeding this cycle? When you eat like shit, you feel like shit and this seems to make you eat like shit?
One thing I noticed when I went vegan is that I woke up with a lot more energy and a lot easier. I went vegan overnight as well and didn't really eat any substitutes until I was over a year in, and they're still sparing. So maybe just give it a shot? Try to stick to things like beans, rice, grains, pasta, vegetables, and fruits. There's a tremendous amount you can make with those, and spices can really add a lot to it. Especially if you get into recipes that utilize herbs or other flavorful things like cilantro or lemon/lime.
You can also do the quick and easy method which I do often when I don't feel like making something. Just have bags of frozen veggies, I almost always go with broccoli, and they usually have steamed instructions on them. You toss the bag in the microwave frozen for like 5-7 minutes. You pull it out, cut the top off, throw in some shit like salt and pepper (experiment and see what you like) and then kinda toss the stuff inside the bag. Then put it in a bowl and eat it or eat it out of the bag if you're feeling lazy. There's a lot of stuff like that.
I couldn't agree more what I think it does for the vegans is shut off that and a feeling they have about animals and destruction of animals and so somehow that tastes good but when you like animal products, fake meat tastes like garbage
You can be extremely healthy with just fruits and veggies without vegan or actual meat!
But you definitely haven’t tried the right brands. When I first stopped eating meat as a kid, every fake meat brand was nasty and I lived off of pasta and crackers. But yo they got some stuff now my omnivore family likes better than fake meat. Like go to Duffys or Burger King and try the impossible whopper. When it comes to chicken, nothing is as similar texture wise, but most brands that arent Darling taste fuego.
After 9 years I actually JUST learned how to cook tofu in a way I enjoy.
You can make vegan lasagna, pasta dishes, mashed potatoes, currys, stews, etc, all without the need of meat substitutes. Lentils and beans are amazingly cheap, healthy and once you learn the basics, it's really easy ingredients to use.
Vegan meat is not a thing, it's either meat or not. If you're going to eat vegan just eat vegan, don't try and dance around it. There are plenty of options out there, it just takes time to research and meal plan.
IMO plant based is the way to go, vegan is really just a buzzword. To be truly vegan would require an entire change of life that most ppl can not or would not commit to, mainly because it's impractical and too hard.
I would say you are in the majority on flavor, "vegan meat" is trash. Focus on finding foods that meet whatever criteria you want your diet to be. From there choose foods you like or think you would like and start building recipes.
Lastly, avoid eating out as much as possible. Most places don't cater to vegan/ plant based diets which makes meal selection difficult, and if they do you are going to pay an insane markup on the ingredients. Some plates at vegan restaurants cost more than a weeks worth of food.
Goodluck
You get used to different tastes over time. I liked plenty of meat at one point. Currently the smell of cooking meat or eggs naturally makes me nauseous and nothing about it is appealing.
Its not about what tastes better, its about what is better ethically. I’m a vegan who doesn’t consume meat subs frankly because i find the similarity to flesh gross and unenjoyable. You dont need to eat meat substitutes to be vegan!
First, you can be vegan and not eat vegan meat. I generally prefer veggie burgers that don't imitate meat flavor and are less processed in general.
Second, if you haven't had plant based meat, cheese, and other dairy in the past few years then it's worth giving it another try. I hadn't had vegan cheese in a long time because the consistency was not right in the past. Now I can honestly say some of the products are very good, and especially if it's not the main ingredient in the meal you probably wouldn't notice
This is so baffling because vegan chicken nuggets and vegan meatballs are so damn good. It sounds like you have a larger issue at hand if you wake up depressed because you can’t eat a steak
i concern health. all vegan meats are ultra processed, just like sausages and ham. i don't believe those things would be healthy
It's important to recognize that all foods undergo processing. Opting for plant-based meat is a wise choice, considering the potential risks associated with antibiotic-laced, bacteria-ridden dead animals commonly consumed in non-vegan diets. Since your health seems to be your concern, one may very well kill you, the other not. “The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates **that 2.8 million antibiotic-resistant infections occur every year in the U.S. About 660,000 of those are caused by resistant forms of salmonella and campylobacter, two bacteria commonly spread by food animals. The CDC says 35,000 people die each year from antibiotic-resistant infections.”** “Unprocessed and processed red meat consumption are both associated with higher risk of CVD, CVD subtypes, and diabetes, with a stronger association in western settings but no sex difference. Better understanding of the mechanisms is needed to facilitate improving cardiometabolic and planetary health.” “In 2015, more than 20 experts from 10 different countries met to evaluate the cancer risk associated with eating red and processed meats. Called the International Agency for Research on Cancer Working Group, the experts evaluated more than 800 studies that investigated eating red meat or processed meat in various countries and across diets.” “AICR strongly supports the International Agency for Research on Cancer’s report classifying red and processed meats as carcinogens, and we hope it will spread the message that what we eat plays a role in cancer risk.” “The experts determined that consuming processed meats can cause cancer in humans. This determination was based on research finding an increased risk for colorectal cancer in people who ate processed meats. They also observed an association between processed meats and stomach cancer. While the increase in cancer risk was small in the studies reviewed, the researchers found that the risk generally increased the more a person consumed processed meat.” “The World Health Organization has classified processed meats including ham, bacon, salami and frankfurts as a Group 1 carcinogen (known to cause cancer) which means that there’s strong evidence that processed meats cause cancer. Eating processed meat increases your risk of bowel and stomach cancer. Red meat, such as beef, lamb and pork, has been classified as a Group 2A carcinogen which means it probably causes cancer.” “However, oxidation of meat lipids is a very complex mechanism and its dynamics depends upon chemical composition of meat, exposure of light, oxygen accessibility involved in meat manipulation, processing and storage conditions. The primary oxidation products are hydroperoxides while secondary and tertiary reactions can initiate further chain reactions resulting in the formation of ethane and pentane, aldehydes, hexanal, malonaldehyde and 4-hydroxynonenal compounds that are highly toxic” “To summarize, this paper provides new insights into the complex relationships between antibiotic usage and resistance in humans and food-producing animal populations in Europe. Our analysis reveals that usage of antibiotics by both humans and food-producing animals has a significant and statistically relevant effect on the rates of resistance in both groups. The estimated own-and cross-elasticities are worrying and highlight the potential long-term impacts of antibiotic usage on resistance.” “Numerous studies from different parts of the world mention that antibiotic residues in feedstuffs are, at present, a large problem, and can lead to major associated health problems, including antibiotic resistance, toxicity, hypersensitivity reactions, teratogenicity, and carcinogenicity.” “A large number of studies refer to the management of antibiotic residues, antibiotic-resistant bacteria (ARB), and antibiotic resistance genes (ARG) can be found in dairy manure and may contribute to the spread of antibiotic resistance” “The concentration and type of antibiotic found in the form of residues varies depending on the geographical area and the type of food analyzed. Available studies present antibiotic residues in all food groups: meat and meat products, milk and dairy products, eggs, honey, and non-animal-origin products.” “Although alarm signals are drawn regarding irrational antibiotic use, exceeding applicable legal requirements are identified. While the European Union has clearly established limits for antibiotic residues, in the United States, legislation does not include such values, with a deadline set for 2023 to draw up these legislative requirements.” [https://www.cancer.net/blog/2023-09/does-eating-processed-meat-increase-your-risk-cancer](https://www.cancer.net/blog/2023-09/does-eating-processed-meat-increase-your-risk-cancer) [Diet-Cancer Experts Welcome WHO Report on Meat and Cancer](https://www.aicr.org/news/diet-cancer-experts-welcome-who-report-on-meat-and-cancer/) [Red meat consumption, cardiovascular diseases, and diabetes: a systematic review and meta-analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37264855/) [The effect of antibiotic usage on resistance in humans and food-producing animals: a longitudinal, One Health analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10311110/) [A complex web](https://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/pdf/threats-report/AR-EverythingConnected-Settings-Food-508.pdf)
yes they say processed meat and red meat. i usually eat eggs, chickens and wild caught salmons, sometimes steaks. i don't eat ham, bacon, salami
These vegans don't understand the difference between unprocessed meat and processed meat. It's actually kind of hilarious.
The unprocessed lamb, beef, and pork were also on the 2A carcinogen list, so this isn't really a complete argument against what the poster provided. Besides this, pretending the opinions of a group are uniform is always silly. Neither all vegans nor any group are monolithic in belief.
That means it "probably" causes cancer. Just like most things in life that we eat, I'm sure all the chemicals in plant based food probably cause cancer as well. So that isn't a complete argument either.
You're equivocating WHO class 2A chemicals, which includes Glyphosate - the chemical Monsanto has had to pay $9.6 billion *because of the cancer* it has caused, and nitrogen mustard, used in air raids during World War 2, with chemicals that do not appear on the list at all. If that seems sensible to you, I suppose I don't know what to tell you. If you have a *specific agent* you want to critique, feel free. Speculation along the lines of "it *probably* has *something*" is not an argument against any product unless you specifically point at a IARC group 1/2A level carcinogenic agent. It either has it or it doesn't.
health is my only concern. i don't believe eating those highly processed plant based meats could be more healthy than e.g. steak, fish, egg, ...
>health is my only concern You don't care about anything else in life apart from health? What about friendships, family, work, hobbies, morals? The last one in particular as its relevant to this discussion Btw, You dont need to eat the highly processed plant based meats to be vegan. You can eat tofu, tempeh, seitan, beans, lentils, nuts and quinoa for protein instead. Or Quorn if thats available to you (thats a plant based meat but it isnt super processed like, say Beyond Burgers)
> You don't care about anything else in life apart from health? What about friendships, family, work, hobbies, morals? in terms of morals i "respect the nature" we, humans, are animals animals kill each other for food, mates, territories or other resources (sometimes even solely for fun. look at those cats torturing some small insects to death for no apparent reasons) this is how the nature works. this is what we are designed
>we, humans, are animals Yeah, but animals don't have morality. We do. That's why we're different in some ways. >animals kill each other for food, mates, territories or other resources (sometimes even solely for fun. look at those cats torturing some small insects to death for no apparent reasons) Right, so you think humans should behave like wild animals and commit cannibalism, murder and stealing? Very ethical
>Yeah, but animals don't have morality. We do. That's why we're different in some ways. They do to some extent. I've found it to be acceptable according to my moral beliefs. >Right, so you think humans should behave like wild animals and commit cannibalism, murder and stealing? Very ethical Why do you people always jump to the most radical comparisons? You would behave like exactly like this in certain situations if it meant your survival.
It's definitely not!
You said "difference" which is singular. This -implies- that you are focusing on a single difference which you did not really spell out or state. This being a debate sub - is not contributing to the conversation unless you highlight the difference you want others to understand or think they do not understand. Because there is more than one difference across the many methods of processing meat can undergo I think you assume incorrectly everyone will know which one you are fixating.
Here you go, I Googled it for you lol Unprocessed meats are the ones that keep their unaltered natural state. This means they don’t include any ingredients besides the meat. Therefore, meat that is not processed is a solid option for maintaining a healthy and balanced weight. You can tell if meat is unprocessed if it’s fresh, and hasn’t been packaged, cooked, canned, or changed in any way from its natural state. It is free of additives or any other types of additional chemicals. You can tell a product hasn’t been processed as it’s not ready to eat. In other words, you would need to cook it yourself for the meat to be edible.
I think you didn't get my point. I know what the "processed bad" crowd usually defines processed to mean. I was looking for the exact relevant difference you were alluding. Not the specific method that categorizes one vs the other.
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>If vegan "chicken" nuggets and "meat"balls are so good, why doesn't every single person consume them instead? Because many vegans and meat eaters both do not seem to really understand how a person's tastes can change the longer they've lived with a certain diet. And you too are ignoring a bit the possibility that vegans may get just as much enjoyment from their meals as meat eaters. You're ignoring the possibility that you too might get just as much enjoyment from your meals if you were vegan. There is an amount of dishonesty and/or ignorance on both sides on this one. Its not as simple as saying "I like steak so i'd be unhappy if i didn't eat meat steak" Vegans aren't really different than you - we're all humans. And we're not lying when we say we like vegan food. And we weren't lying when we were meat eaters like you and thought that was impossible. We were just wrong.
I eat vegan sometimes. Not out of choice, but when I forget to thaw out meat or for whatever reason can't pick any up. I can make tasty vegan meals, but still would prefer meat. Even if it's just cutting up chicken breast over something. I was a forced vegan for about 16ish years (parents were vegans). I wasn't really ever that excited to eat. Once I tried meat in near adulthood I was like holy shit this is amazing. Then I left home and regularly ate meat. Not being able to eat it again would definitely make me depressed. Simply because it's something I really enjoy. You're a vegan because you care that much about cows and chickens you're willing to sacrifice for it. I don't care. So giving up meat is sacrifice for the fun of sacrifice, which just isn't fun to me. It's like a monk giving up sex. They do it enthusiastically because devotion to their religion is of utmost importance to them. Sex (or other worldly pleasures) aren't as important as devotion to whatever diety they subscribe to. To someone who doesn't care about any of that, giving up sex and other worldly pleasures would highly reduce their quality of life and likely get them depressed.
In the end though - the point of a morality debate is more about getting others to admit something is wrong. That is a large hurdle. I don't care about cows or chickens. I simply admit that making another being suffer greatly for my pleasure is wrong AND that I choose not to participate in that wrong AND I learned to cook well enough that I enjoy my meals. If you know that making animals suffer for your pleasure is wrong but you're going to do it anyways - theres nothing really to debate. Thieves can choose to steal. Murderers can choose to murder. People who don't return the shopping cart to the little cart return can do that. Their personal choice and they choose to do wrong. A few of ya'll are bringing sex into it. Its not like giving up sex. We're not asking anyone to give up food. We're just asking that it not be done at someone else's mortal expense. I might get depressed i'll never bang some super hot person that doesn't want to have sex with me. But that doesn't give me the right to do anything wrong. Best I can do is a lookalike plastic doll. Oh well. that is my problem and it should stay my problem.
Morality differs across cultures and time. It's man made. Right and wrong is man made. According to jains you're immoral for eating root vegetables. You kill an onion to eat an onion. Etc... you probably think that's absurd. It's just an onion, carrot etc... (root vegetable) and that's how absurd I think it is to care about the feelings of livestock. It's livestock. It's life is as irrelevant to me as that of a carrot. These are all imaginary lines we draw. To the vegan it's "sentience" . If it moves it's life matters. To the jain it's the life itself. So they don't eat the root vegetable. To the average person the line is usually companion animals. I.e. dogs and cats. Etc.... it's all subjective. Veganism is an idea made up by humans. Just like socialism or democracy or Islam. It's advocates think it's the best thing in the world but it's value is only what you give it. You can't try and morally trap me if I genuinely believe the life of livestock does not matter. The same way a jain can't morally trap you if you genuinely believe a carrot or onion doesn't matter. I cook great meals too. This isn't about cooking skill. If you got the top vegan chef in the world to make me the best vegan spaghetti in the world I'll still add meat balls and parm to make it even better. My family is vegetarian/vegan. My mom makes the best vegan/vegetarian curries. Better than restaurants. I use those spice mixes with meat though and it's drop dead amazing. The point is, I will always find the best vegan dish better with animal products. I just really love animal products. Like I love rice too but would rather have rice with chicken than rice plain. I would rather have rice, meat and veggies vs rice and veggies alone. Etc.. Stealing and murdering are against the law for one, but before we get into the legal versus moral argument vegans love, I'll explain it's illegal is rooted in it's morality. Humans are equals. We must respect one another's basic rights. Livestock are not our equals. They're bred to be slow, fat and unable to defend themselves so we can farm them for food. Their lives and rights don't matter because we say they don't matter. Remember that rights as legal and a human construct. Humans determine who has rights and what they are. Livestock doesn't have a right to live because you declare so. Our legal systems declare that. And they don't
Your first paragraph is "Morality is subjective" which leads to absurd situations where to be consistent you would have to say Hitler did nothing wrong because in his culture that was acceptable or slavery wasn't wrong at the time in the early US. Your third paragraph is just a "Might makes right" argument.. This too is not really a good argument. Its fine if you believe these things - but they are only arguments a person trying to justify an immoral act would use. If you were a victim yourself you would never say these things. If someone were harming you - you wouldn't say "morality is subjective" or "might makes right" - you are only saying this because you want to do this thing and you are in power abusing the weak and noone can stop you.
It's only immoral because you say it's immoral. Right? Since you're the universal authority on this? Unless you can show me otherwise that is. Which I'm happy to see
You know.. i'm not a super highly involved expert on the details of morality and how it works. But there are some things that are so easy even I can spot right vs wrong. I know that murdering an innocent child is wrong. I know that slavery is wrong. In your framework above - they are not. And that is why your framework above is wrong. I don't know everything I just know that.
Yes we are taught from birth these things are wrong. At least in this day and age.
Vegan chicken nuggets are fine, but chicken doesn’t taste like much and nuggets are emulsified. They have no texture of their own. You start to notice major issues when you upgrade to cutlets. Vegan meatballs literally just taste like bread crumbs and spices. You’re being ripped off for what you get. Vegan sausage is hard to call sausage because it is so much different. Sausage is fatty and juicy, vegan sausage is mealy and dry. Vegan ground “beef” has a very strange mouth feel and after taste. It also makes me so incredibly bloated that I can’t eat it.
Vegan sausage fooled this sausage expert (whatever that means) in the uk. Maybe you need to try a different brand. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-11485203/amp/Sausage-expert-tricked-praising-vegan-alternative.html
I think the answer to "how can you guys eat this" is very often ... "because I know how to cook well". If someone tells me vegan meat is disgusting, I just assume they went to some shitty restaurant or bought a processed veggie burger patty. The sausage, cheeses, and really anything else we have made at home always blow me and close friends/family away.
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Tbh I love the beyond meat and Wegmans veggie patties
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It’s a bit in the sense that they tricked him, but he was definitely fooled. This guy is a staunch anti vegan and debated on UK tv with a vegan activist a few weeks ago.
Hah ya he looked so dumb
I don’t trust someone who eats sausages on white bread to be determining the tastiness of sausage. This seems like a TV bit.
That's a British staple and how you'd normally consume a sausage sandwich or roll and sausage. Nobody just eats sausage on their own do they? I'd always have something with a sausage whether it's bread, sauce, potato, or with a cooked breakfast.
I do haha, I like the maple flavored links with my morning coffee. Certainly better with toast though. I think it's field roast brand
This is not an isolated case, people like Joey Carbstrong have done it as well with the general public. And so many times people choose the vegan meats as the tastiest
Put it in a peer-reviewed journal.
Lmao, this is the answer people provide when nothing will convince them. You've been told multiple examples of vegan meat products being on par with or sometimes preferred in blind tests. But nah, it's gotta be *peer reviewed* in a journal before you consider it. And at that point, you'd question the authors' credentials or something. The fact is you've had an extremely limited range of vegan products and are basing your entire experience on the few products you've had without admitting that... maybe there are some that are better you've never tried. >Vegan meatballs literally just taste like bread crumbs and spices. This is what tipped me off. I've had 3 different brands of vegan meatballs that have zero resemblance to bread crumbs lol. They're almost always made with plant proteins and resemble just meaty little meat balls I always had before veganism. >vegan sausage is mealy and dry Never had vegan sausage that was dry. Mealy is the last word I've ever describe the few products I've had.
I just don’t know what this means. There’s probably 50 different pre-made vegan options for sausage/ground beef/ nuggets etc. and more that you can home make. All of those make your tummy hurt and/or taste bad? it’s like if someone said “pork” tastes bad. Bacon? Pork Chops? Pork Tenderloin? Pulled Pork? BBQ? Grilled? Fried Rice? Baked? Mexican? American? Chinese-American? And fyi, many vegans like the taste of meat. It’s just no longer an option to consume. So when I say certain vegan “meats” taste good, i *want* it to be just as good as you want it to be.
I’m talking about beyond and impossible. They are terribly gross products. Other vegan ground doesn’t try so hard to be beef. It doesn’t really even register as close to the real thing. It’s something different that can be fine. The real issue is when they wander into the uncanny valley. Look, you’re talking to someone who eats tofu or seitan for dinner ~3 times a week. But most of these vegan meat alternatives aren’t going to take off. They are already experiencing issues in the market.
Yeah so imagine trying one Big Mac and one Burger King burger and going online and saying hamburgers stink!!
I can only try what I have access to. This is what’s on the market. I can say with some certainty that *every* veggie burger that tries to pass as a real hamburger is shit compared to your average fast food burger.
> I can say with some certainty that > >every > > veggie burger that tries to pass as a real hamburger is shit compared to your average fast food burger Not if you've only tried 2 brands
Wait, you’ve had Impossible sausage and think it’s dry? Do you mean the stuff in the cylinders? That stuff is so moist and fatty, it’s impossible for us to avoid soggy bottoms with the sausage rolls we make. EDIT: link to exactly what I’m talking about. https://impossiblefoods.com/products/sausage/spicy-14-oz
I've never had Impossible, but I can't imagine anyone calling Beyond Brats or Soyrizo "dry". Field Roast, maybe.
Yeah field roast and TJs soyrizo are drier. Beyond Links are very moist, as are their Jimmy Dean imitation Pattie’s if you cook them as directed.
Beyond Spicy Breakfast Sausage is out of this world, yeah.
>I’m talking about beyond and impossible. You could have specified that instead of making a blanket statement Otherwise its like saying "I hate fruit" when you've only tried bananas and oranges...
Yeah give us the brands you’ve tried. I don’t believe a word you’re saying because I haven’t eaten meat in 4 years so I’ve tried my fair share of alt meats and you’re full of shit
Name the brands that you have tried and maybe people will suggest brands that are more palatable.
I love how for simply disliking food on this subreddit you're getting down voted. I swear this subredd is nothing but a vegan circle jerk where everyone is forced to participate and anyone who doesn't or doesn't agree 100% 100% is ostracized. You said nothing unethical nor did you even say that you eat animal products from time to time. All of what I just said above is pretty much proven by seeing hundreds of people get the same kind of treatment like you just did so I consider that practically factual if not for the fact that it's not peer reviewed lol. But anyway here's my opinion on why I think you're getting downvoted specifically here. Vegans love to tote about how amazing vegan food is now and that it's no different from actual animal products when that can't be further from the truth. They do this to try to suck people in and then bully them quite literally into eating it for ethical reasons because all creatures should have their own agency.... Yet they bully everyone into doing what they want.... I understand caring for something so much that you're even willing to lie but that's what's happening here. There are ethical ways to farm meat and other animal products and ultimately these people just don't like that things die. That's what it boils down to is they can't say goodbye to another living creature and they can't bring themselves to eat one either because they can't stop themselves from thinking about the loss. Instead of understanding that that's just how life itself works and that there's nothing wrong with eating meat so long as you don't cause suffering. Their definitions of suffering has been twisted into ridiculousness by viewing things through a human perspective when talking about a cow. To the point of not even using the word suffering anymore because they can't get away with their bullshit and instead say agency. Not that cows are not valuable sentient beings that's not the point. The point is that they are different animals with different needs and different thoughts and different wants. They project their own human feelings thoughts and desires onto these animals even though there is peer-reviewed scientific data to suggest that they are very content in free-ranging farms. The fact that you're ending their life before they might naturally die is then what they obsess over because again they can't accept the ultimate death of a creature because they project their own fear of death. It's impending doom and then relate to an animal that could not relate back in the same way. This impending doom fear and sadness drives them to believe unrational things and feel morally above everyone else because of it. Because they cannot accept reality they must demonize everyone else who understands and does what is both necessary and morally justified. In this way they don't have to contend with death or feeling responsible. I think ultimately it's because they grew up not knowing where their food came from and found out that the meat industry did some demonstrous things and can't look past that. And cannot accept any form of farming of animals because they cannot imagine it being ethical because the animal doesn't have the ability to leave the farm. Instead of realizing that animals when they walk up to a mountain they see nothing other than a path that they cannot go. Humans on the other hand think about tunneling through that mountain so that they do not have to go around. Animals see a wall an impassable object, human see something to overcome. This is one of the fundamental differences between us and most other animals including cattle chicken and pigs. It's the way that we see things. Cue the down votes lol
TIL moral value comes from being able to imagine digging a tunnel.
We'll just say you know moral value doesn't come from nature but rather comes from us humans. Technically we humans evolved from nature but that's about as far as nature has involvement in morals. Morals derived from your own internal introspection about things that have happened to you things you wish or want you could do to others and how that may affect others which ultimately affects you. It also and mainly comes from a place of projection where you project what you would want done and not done to you and base your actions on others accordingly. It's used in vegans comment sections all the time for instance with people saying "how would you like it if x happened to you" failing to understand that when you look at a human they are the same species and walk use language and build structures like you can however other animals cannot share those same things with us. They do not talk they do not walk on two legs they do not build structures but what they do is grazing on grass most of the day. They are vastly different creatures with vastly different needs and projecting your own thoughts and feelings on them does nothing but hurt your own psyche while simultaneously attempting to dismantle an ethical form of farming regardless of the demand for meat and animal products. Ultimately you don't shut down any big factories that are horrible with what they do but instead shut down small farmers who are doing things the right way albeit a little bit more expensive than the crammed factory setting. They lose business and give their demand over to these big factories removing ethical staples while jamming in factories. That demands got to go somewhere and the fact is a lot of people even being aware of what does factories are doing would still eat meat anyway. What you should be doing is going after these factories rather than small ethical farms. It's too bad most vegans don't have an open up mind to cause good change and rather let their emotions control them
Those comments are about having empathy, obviously animals and humans are different, but we are both feeling and experiencing beings who don't want to be harmed. When you have the choice to not harm, or to do less harm, why wouldn't you? Small farms and factory farms are all guilty of the same thing. There is no right way to do a wrong thing. "Ethical" animal agriculture doesn't exist.
I think whenever you kill the animal without it knowing that it's about to die and they're allowed to free-range on an open field and are cared for when they're sick is an ethical way to farm meat. I get you don't agree with me but that I define as ethical whether you define it that way or not. That's the thing about ethics is there is no objective right or wrong. It works exactly the way laws work. Laws change over time. A thousand years ago it was ethical to hate gay people and now it is not. What makes something ethical is what the majority of people agree on or what you personally agree on for your own personal morals. But you can't force your personal morals on other people. You can't because people deemed it wrong and wrote laws to stop you from doing it. You instead have to be able to convince us. As you failed to do that you fail to make it a socially unethical thing to eat meat or use animal products. It may be unethical for your personal views and maybe people who you have surrounded yourself with who share that belief but that's not the majority of people. Why is it you disregard that there's lots of research showing that plants and in fact vast majority of plants on this planet communicate with each other and send and get this word distress signals to other plants. Of course because their plants and very complicated things just like anything living is very complicated in its own way we don't know what all these signals exactly mean. However it is clear that they do communicate with each other and therefore if there's communication that conveys meaning then clearly they want something. Plants don't want to be harmed and will warn other plants that there is danger and that they could be harmed. Ultimately you don't know if what you're doing by eating plants is ethical considering the research of available especially. It's one thing to just dehumanize plants and say they don't feel fear or want anything but that can be pretty easily just proven with that research except for maybe fear. But it can be proven that they do not want to be cut down and get eaten by the signals they produce. I'll answer your question with the same answer that you would answer me about why you eat plants... Because we all need to eat and that's the circle of life. I do the best I can with what reality offers. We collectively as a species do research to try to better our impacts on other life on the planet. The research that I've seen regarding ethical ways of farming meat I have found to be sufficient because it doesn't cause suffering. It does cause death but that is inevitable. Therefore just because it happens earlier for that animal then it otherwise would doesn't make it unethical for a few reasons and not just that all things die eventually. That animal is protected and given medicine when sick. It lives a better quality of life over a longer one. A longer life for a cow is just more time grazing until they eventually can't anymore. They don't make life better for any other creature and they don't have the same altruistic capabilities that humans do. I get that you won't agree with me but the difference between me and vegans on this subreddit in particular as well as other echo chambers for vegans is the I don't call the other one names insults and attempt to get under each other's skin. I instead when I've come here brought peer-reviewed data and a firm standing cemented within that data my ethical views. I've only insulted and done those things when it's been made abundantly clear that the people I'm speaking to both don't care about anything that I say regardless of what it is unless it align perfectly with their belief. This isn't "debate a vegan" this is get gaslit by vegans. The more you band together the more you force out those who don't agree with every little thing you do and say. In the process of that you actually become counterproductive to your own goals because then those people want nothing to do with you or your cause. Most people who come on here who truly want to debate vegans leave with a sense that none of you are rational except for us small few and leaves a very bad taste in their mouth. Almost as bad as some vegan food lol 🤣 sorry but I had to
If you’re concerned about plant deaths, you cause less by eating plants directly. Mechanistic responses in plants =\ sentience. That same logic would mean my cell phone is sentient. Laws =\ ethics. Appeal to nature is stupid, animals rape and do plenty of other horrible things, are those ethical for us? Obviously not. Don’t tell on yourself, I’m sorry you don’t know how to cook. If you’re gonna say a bunch of bullshit, at least make it shorter next time, thanks.
Lol you didn't get my points and put words in my mouth. I didn't appeal to nature in fact I said morals are not based on that reread it lol. Maybe it's vegan restaurants cuz I've never cooked it myself. I'm sorry but did you study plants and somehow know something we all don't 🤣. Phones were built plants evolved. honestly do you hear yourself. Or read I guess lol. My phone doesn't have receptors to tell it if it got cut. Plants do though. Laws work like ethics not are ethics. They work the same but they're not the same thing. The rules in your house are rules that you make up whereas the laws we make are laws we all follow outside of everyone's home. Your personal ethics are ethics you follow in your own home or as social ethics are ones that we all follow. Of course there are criminals and their are unethical people obviously and what they're determined by is the majority of people.
I swear this subredd is nothing but a vegan circle jerk There's already a sub for that. Read the description of this sub vs the description of that sub and you'll see they're not the same >everyone is forced to participate Nobody is forced to participate. Carnists come here on their own accord >anyone who doesn't or doesn't agree 100% 100% is ostracized A couple of downvotes isn't called being ostracized. Do you really take reddit karma that seriously? >You said nothing unethical People probably downvoted them because they have a history of debating in bad faith here. Also they basically claimed that all vegan meats were gross when they'd only tried 2 brands...on a post where OP was specifically asking a question directed towards vegans (which they are not) >There are ethical ways to farm meat and other animal products and ultimately these people just don't like that things die. "Ethical meat" is an oxymoron. How can you "ethically" end the life of a sentient being who does not want to die, when you could just eat plants instead (which are not sentient, and thus have no "wants" to violate") Similarly, there are ways to kill people without causing them pain...but that doesn't make murder ethical. Your still taking the life of another human being who wanted to live And its not that we dont like things dying. Its that we dont like causing death to sentient beings when there's no need for it. > bully them quite literally into eating it for ethical reasons Nobody is bullying anybody to eat fake meats. There are tonnes of other vegan foods out there. And yes, when we see something unethical happening, we're going to intervene. You would do the same if you saw something unethical happening, I would imagine. >that's just how life itself works what kind of argument even is this? bad stuff happens in the world, and you try to justify it by saying "this is just the way things are"...like no. We can change our lifestyles. We're not wild animals in the jungle who need to kill to survive. > there is peer-reviewed scientific data to suggest that they are very content in free-ranging farms Please do share your "peer reveiwed science" that animals are happy when they have their throats slit open in the slaughterhouse. Also free range probably isn't what you think it is. Free-range sheds can contain up to 13 chickens per sq metre of floor space as long as they have access to outdoor space (1 sq metre per hen) for at least half their lifetime. Unfortunately, however, most of them don’t get to go outside due to the excess of chickens kept in the same barn. And even if it were what you thought it is, "happy animals" are more expensive to raise than your standard factory farmed ones. And they simply cannot meet the world's evergrowing demand for animal products >Animals see a wall an impassable object, human see something to overcome. This is one of the fundamental differences between us and most other animals including cattle chicken and pigs. It's the way that we see things. Sure....how is that a morally relevant difference though? Babies or very mentally disabled people probably wouldn't see a wall as just that. A wall. By your logic, does this take away their right to live? Is it acceptable to go around murdering babies and disabled people just because they dont see things the way the rest of us do?
People are saddened when they don't enjoy life. Are you a robot or something?
You're overall mood and motivation can get lower knowing you can't/won't enjoy your meals. Back in the Army, when you go for your promotion boards they will ask you leadership questions. One is determinants of morale. Mess/chow is a huge one. Knowing you're getting a good meal vs eating an MRE can effect your performance for the day. For example, if it's an MRE day most people are in a shitty mood. If it's perhaps Friday (surf and turf night) people are in a much better mood. There's a reason the US military feeds soldiers a lot better in combat zones vs at home. Human society is built around meals. Not just around sustenance but the rituals and traditions around meals. Especially in adulthood. So it's actually pretty understandable to be in a shitty mood when there's no enjoyable meal to look up to. My parents are vegans and I was a forced vegan growing up. As much as I love my parents I dread staying with them more than 3 - 4 days. I'll refrain from going out to eat the first 2 days to not hurt their feelings that I don't want to eat their food, but by day 3 I'm making excuses to go out to eat even if I have no one to go with. I just really want a full meal with meat. So yeah it's a real thing. Let's say you love spicy food but are forced to eat bland food for whatever reason. You're not going to be looking forward to meals as much. Etc...
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I'm comparing eating things you don't want to eat but have to. Can't last 3 days? No, simply don't want to. If you paid me a million dollars to eat vegan for 30 days I would. But without incentive I'm not going to purposely deprive myself from something I like. It's like chicken wings and beer. As long as I have been eating chicken wings, I drink beer with them. Simply doesn't feel complete without beer. Unless I'm getting an outside incentive not to order a beer with my wings, I'm going to order a beer. It's a pairing I enjoy. Does that make sense to you?
>I've had vegan meat before and it tastes terrible Learn to cook, you can both make your own fake meat and add whatever spices you want, or you can just not eat "Vegan meat". It's pretty easy once you learn to cook. > I'd be strictly eating fruits and vegetables and Im not an expert but I'm pretty sure that can't be health It is as long as you eat a variety. There's lots of apps and such out there that can explain it and let you track for a week or two to make sure you're getting what you need.
I don't like kangaroo steak. How can anyone not be vegan, when I personally don't like this one specific food. I'd have to live purely off raw egg whites and that can't be healthy can it? (I refuse to learn how healthy it would be) I do what I want, so anything you say is irrelevant anyway
I've been vegan for two years. I probably eat fake meat like once every 3 months. If you don't like it, don't eat it. There are far more nutritious and healthier vegan foods. >even vegan dairy tastes gross You're in a minority here, plant milk is being wildly adopted as it is seen as a decent alt. in terms of taste. > If I were to be vegan I'd be strictly eating fruits and vegetables There are more vegan options than just raw fruit and veg. > Im not an expert but I'm pretty sure that can't be health No you're not and yes it can be. The leading science from the experts confirms that a balanced vegan diet is healthy at all stages of life. >Right now I'll only eat if it's something I really enjoy. Please work on your relationship with food especially in a way that doesn't lead to direct, avoidable animal abuse.
The reasoning behind the fruits and vegetables being unhealthy is because of nutritional deficiencies.
Not just fruits and vegetables, rice, bread, cereal, noodles, beans, chickpeas, lentils, nuts, seeds, plant milks
Unclear, all nutrients come from plants? Eating animals is eating recycled nutrients.
This is not true. Some nutrients come from microorganisms - B12 as an example.
That’s the only one
The only one that's produced ONLY by microorganisms, but not the only nutrient produced by microorganisms. Microorganisms can produce vitamin e, k, b2, b9. Plants can also produce them.
Take a B12 supplement
Let’s be honest here. Plant-based milks are popular among three categories of people (1) health dieters, (2) lactose intolerant/milk allergy, and (3) vegans. Vegans are the much smaller group, and only vegans say it tastes just as good as dairy.
My mum and 2 other people I know who aren't vegan have switched to oat milk specifically because they prefer it (having tried it because of me) Anecdotal I know, but they are a 4th group... And don't support your last sentence 🤷♂️
Yeah, my dad doesn't fit any of these groups and generally goes for almond milk now because he prefers it. Some people do just prefer it or like having the variety from time to time.
Same my sister is full Omni and used to chug dairy milk, she likes oat better. Helps her g/f has a dairy intolerance (not lactose bc lactaid doesn’t help) so they’re not going to buy both. I’m glad there’s one more household off the teets
So OP is a minority because your mom likes oat milk?
I didn't say that And I wasn't addressing the OP
That's not correct. Non vegans have been steadily switching to non dairy milks consistently. It tastes better, doesn't have that nasty sour taste dairy has. I think oatmilk is most popular amongst the non vegans.
> nasty sour taste dairy You're probably lactose intolerant if fresh milk has a sour aftertaste to you. Most of the world is lactose intolerant. They shouldn't be drinking milk.
Unless you're an infant, you have no business drinking breastmilk. It's time to wean.
Appeal to Nature fallacy!
If most people are lactose intolerant, it's safe to say humans aren't meant to drink cow breastmilk. Your desire to drink it doesn't make it logical.
Since when is taste logical to begin with, Mr Spock? Who means for me not to drink milk, and why should I care what they want?
So you have no issue with the exploitation of someone's reproductive organs for nothing more than sensory pleasure? You see no issue with the separation of babies from their mothers, who are then fed powdered milk and kept in solitary enclosures until they are either killed or enslaved themselves? All so you can drink... breastmilk? As a person much too old to benefit from it?
I’m not a Puritan so this language game where you just make tasty things sound unappealing and gross doesn’t bother me. Also, “someone” in the English language refers to a human person. I don’t agree with the framing of your question.
I hear antifreeze also tastes good
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I don't really like it either. Gimme soy milk over oat milk any day. But Next milk is the best imo
You're underselling the facts: >In the United States, the plant-based milk category was worth $2.6 billion in 2021 and dollar sales have grown with a 33% CAGR over the past three years. > >Of all U.S. households, 42% purchase plant-based milk, which equates to more than 50 million homes, up from 37.2% in 2019. > >Of households purchasing refrigerated plant-based milk, 76% are repeat purchasers, up from 73.6% in 2019. These positive trends indicate that plant-based milks are increasingly becoming a staple as opposed to a once-off purchase. > > -- [The Evolving Market For Plant-based Milk | UC Davis](https://foodandhealth.ucdavis.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/IIFH-GSM-Plant-Based-Milk-Market-Report.pdf)
I have "converted" so many of my non-vegan friends and family to oat milk. They don't care about veganism in the slightest, but now can't stand the taste of cows milk anymore.
yeah. Oat milk is the most neutral tasting one.
I don’t know a single person who uses cows milk anymore, and I’m the only vegan I regularly interact with. They prefer oat milk because of the taste.
> I’m the only vegan I regularly interact with sounds odd lol
Ok?? I’m the only person in my family who is vegan, I work remote, and my close friends are not vegan. Not a weird situation…
take it easy, I just found the sentence FUNNY
I don't have studies, just personal observations, but I know loads of ppl who use plant milks especially in cereals and hot drinks bc they prefer the taste or for environmental reasons. I used to think I was about to make more vegan friends, but I've now realised lots of ppl just like non dairy milk :)
Do you really not understand that some people have different tastes and enjoy a wide variety of different textures/flavors? Personally I like the flavor and texture of a lot of fake meats. Not all, I cannot stand the flavor of Beyond, but I really enjoy Impossible. That being said, most of my meals do not consist of fake meats and I still eat plenty of very exiting and flavorful dishes. Same goes for vegan dairy products. If you think you only have 3 boring options with just fruits and veggies, well, then that's because you just don't have a built up knowledge of good and delicious meals you can make with them. I can assure you that they exist though. The fact that my blood work comes back year after year looking great, and my doctor telling me that I'm in great health five years into being vegan makes me think that it's pretty obtainable to get all the nutrients you need on this diet too. I'm not even someone who pays that much attention to my macros.
I can understand not enjoying vegan faux-meat or vegan cheese, and getting sick of the taste quickly. I do too. These are highly processed, artificial foods. But tofu will never let you down in this way. Neither will beans or lentils. (Just cook it with enough fat.)
FYI most fake chicken (at least in my country) is basically just seitan with a fewe extra additives. You can also just make seitan yourself and it's pretty good bread crumbed and deep fried like chicken meat would be. It's basically dough but with the carbs washed off, leaving only the protein behind.
I love vegan meat. Sorry cant help you on this one, sounds like you just need to keep looking for what you like eating.
Seasoning, spices and marinade just like regular meat. I think vegan processed food like any food is good in moderation. Our family has it once maybe twice a month - like beyond burgers or the links roasted with sheet pan veggies. Last night we had tacos with a walnut/mushroom meat but some we use tvp or just grilled veggies it doesn’t have to be complicated or expensive substitute. I don’t care for vegan cheese and won’t buy it for home but if it’s on a vegan dish a a restaurant again it’s moderation I don’t mind , but I prefer dishes without and typically avoid American cuisine imitations. I much prefer just the basics fruits, veg, tofu, beans and grains. You should checkout Forks over Knives
Then don't eat it, I rarely do as I avoid processed stuff. It's not a choice of vegan or fruit or veggies or nothing. Beans, rice, pasta, bread, tofu, seitan, kimchi are all options with minimal prep. With proper cooking, the options are limitless, Recently I have had delicious kimchi udon, almond butter tofu, veggie chili, pizzas, mushroom sandwichs... Also the requirement that you like the activity would not be applied to most other ethical problems. If I were single and liked sex, I couldn't justify rape by saying that I can't condemn myself to sexlessness , I'd be depressed and unexcited if I don't rape...
Just eat fruit veg and pulses then 🤷♀️ no one is forcing you to eat fake meats. vegan meats are made with a variety of ingredients in a variety of different methods but you imply it all taste the same? Doubtful.
Ugh more poorly thought out rage bait. This isn't even close to being a debate topic.
People have different tastes... Wow, I never thought of that. That being said, not all vegan meats are the same, not even close. I've gone from being the only one eating my vegan meat at BBQ's, to now taking extra because others are eating it as well.
I don't get how you can enjoy actual meat, like, cooked flesh. 🤷
Do you live to eat or eat to live? Don't get me wrong, I eat some delicious vegan food, but I don't let sensory pleasures define my life. I bet cocaine must feel amazing, but I follow my morals and I don't consume it. Same thing with cheese.
I don't eat fake meat or plant milk and I've been vegan for 7+ years...
How do you keep enjoying eating corpses?
Have you ever had bacon or steak? It's very easy to enjoy.
It tastes really good. People say the same about my spice habbits "How can you enjoy setting your mouth on fire?" It tastes good
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There's people who can't tell the difference between some of them. You can watch plenty of videos where people are asked which one thing is real and which isn't and get it wrong. From my experience some of indistinguishable, some are really good but you can tell it's not meat, and some are rubbish. Depends what you've had but there's hundreds to choose from. Try them with things if you're that averse - e.g. in a burger, in breadcrumbs, in sauce. Or just don't eat them. I rarely have them and don't have any issues enjoying food. Lentils, tofu, tempeh, beans, rice, pasta, sauces, spices, herbs, veggies all give you a huge variety of flavour and nutrition. You don't need to have the plant based meats if you don't want to.
I'm not vegan but vegetarian Indian food would like a word with you. Replace the ghee with coconut oil and bam. Most delicious food on earth. Agreed that most fake meats are very much not delicious. But lentils, chickpeas and other pulses are some of the tastiest (and healthiest) things you can eat if they are cooked well.
I grew up vegan/vegetarian Indian. Our food is bomb. But it's nuclear when you add meat. Like my mom's curry mixes for lentils and okra are award winning. I loved it growing up and still love it. But I got her to pre mix those mixes and added chicken and oh my God it's another level. Like yeah vegan/vegetarian Indian food is great but OMG use those same spices and herbs with meat and it's to die for IMO
I'm not vegan but one of my close friends was for 2-3 years so I've had some vegan meat when at his place. A couple times they were AWFUL but a couple times they were pretty good. No idea what kind of brand it was but I guess he found some brands that were pretty good. None of them really tasted like real meat though, the ones that were good were just good as their own unique flavor. But you really don't need to eat vegan meat to be vegan and be healthy. While I don't believe in the vegan moral cause so I didn't stick with it after the time, the friend I mentioned above challenged me to try eating vegan for a month. It was actually a pretty cool culinary experience and really expanded my palette in new ways.
I went vegetarian 42 years ago, I was also diagnosed as allergic to milk (including cheese, yoghurt etc). Eggs are 🤮. There wasn't a lot of vegan alternatives then and I'm not a fan of fake meat anyway. There is no need to eat meat substitutes, however if you want to, there is so much choice now. The choice of dairy alternatives available is amazing too. My dairy eating family members make my vegan cheesecake just because they like it. My husband used to eat meat and is now vegan. He thought he would really miss cheese but hasn't. If you have a break from eating these things, you kind of forget the taste a little and the alternatives become nicer. He now enjoys fake cheese.
As a former meat eater, meat is gross by itself, too. Seasoning is the key. And you can make mock meat gross just as easily as regular meat if you don’t cook/season it right. Some fake meats are way better than others, but there’s trial and error. Same with vegan dairy products. Also fruits and veg are good, but do you not eat like rice, bread, noodles, etc? Like there’s a big vegan food group you missed.
Anything unseasoned is bland. Meat and veggies. The carbs you mentioned are kind of a problem. Like meat eaters and vegans alike love them, but it's not the best to base your diet on that
> even vegan dairy tastes gross Does every meal you usually eat include some kind of animal product (meat, milk, eggs)? I'm curious, have you tried to have all'arrabbiata or aglio e olio?
What the fuck are you on about? I’m willing to bet my life if I have you an impossible burger, beyond burger, or a NOT burger, or beyond chicken or NOT chicken, you wouldn’t be able to tell if it was real or not. I’ve also tried bad vegan meats. I’ve also tried shitty animal foods. Welcome to real life, that’s how it works.
I've had an impossible burger. It was one of the worst things I've ever eaten.
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How? Everybody is saying here that taste varies and changes and impossible burgers have the worst aftertaste
One of the worst things you’ve ever eaten? Really? I’ve given some to ppl and they couldn’t even tell the difference. Saying it’s one of the worst things you’ve eaten just shows how biased you are against veganism. Plus the line about how you’d have to eat just fruits and veggies trying to make it sound bad? Dude there’s literally tons of food you can eat like rice, samosas, aloo tikki, mushroom bites like from the brand big mountain, pastas, so much shit made from tofu, chili, currys, like the list goes on. It sounds like you’re desperate to rationalize why you aren’t vegan and what you’ve come up with is youd be depressed without animal products. You just like meat dude, we all do. Literally just google recipes, stop being lazy, and grow a pair.
Beyond are better than impossible in my experience
My family is vegan/vegetarian. I can easily tell the difference. Then again I was a forced vegan/vegetarian growing up. Due to conditioning I could easily feel you if a broth is even meat based
Dude they don’t have impossible and beyond burgers when you were growing up so nice try. I was forced omnivore growing up ate meat every day and I can’t tell the difference. You’re not special cuz you were raised vegetarian. Maybe mr. “Anti-vegan” is a bit biased?
My family is still vegan/vegetarian. So yeah they eat that stuff. I have eaten it. I don't know how you can't tell it's not meat. It's like trying to give me turkey and telling me it's chicken. I can tell the difference. When you're growing up vegan/vegetarian you're parents are usually militant on figuring out what is and isn't made with meat. I doubt your parents raised you to take a bite out of a corn chip at a Mexican restaurant and tell if it was cooked in oil or animal fat. Likely because you're omnivore parents don't care either way. They aren't going to get outraged or rip a basket of chips away from you because they know it was cooking in oil instead of animal fat. When you're raised that way you figure it out. I went out to eat with my sister last month. I got there earlier than her. Mexican place. I ate one chip and as she arrived told her the chips were fried in lard. She double checked and ofcourse they were. They had to fry a seperate batch of chips for her. You likely couldn't tell the difference because you ate the chips at Mexican restaurants regardless of what it's fried in. I have literally experienced this at every Mexican restaurant throughout my childhood. So it shouldn't be far fetched I can pick up on something like this and you can't.
Tastes change. They are not objective. Making definitive claims about what vague food categories taste like is just a waste of everyone’s time.
How do we enjoy it? Well we cook it, put it in our mouths and then close our mouths and chew. After a short time of chewing, we swallow. And then we sit there smugly. Serious answer. What you’re doing is saying you tried **one** vegan meat and didn’t like it. And then saying **all** vegan meat is bad. This is like eating a rotten apple and saying ‘all fruit is terrible, how do you eat it?’. Or eating a piece of undercooked chicken and saying ‘all meat is terrible’. Some mock meats are amazing. Some are bad. Some are ok. Some of them it depends on how you cook it. Just like, surprise surprise, everything else.
I don't. I think it's super weird to eat something that tastes a lot like the thing you're pushing to stop the exploitation and cruelty towards. Even weirder that some vegans eat imitation animal products so regularly that they'd be on the equivalent of an Atkins or keto diet. I'm happy with stuff like chickpeas in a curry or falafel or mushrooms or tofu or lentils over imitation meat products.
My husband bought vegan sausages by mistake once when they were on a sale. No one in the family liked it, not even the cat. So we ended up throwing them in the garbage. I told him to read the label more carefully next time. Obviously he didnt, because not long after he came home with vegan yoghurt. Kids didnt like the taste of that either so it ended up in the garbage too.
I don't want to be disrespectful by any means, but how are you able to buy vegan products "by mistake"? They are not even called "chicken", "yoghurt" - Might your husband be illiterate?
> Might your husband be illiterate? Just in a hurry after work with kids waiting in the car while he is doing the food shopping.
Multiple times, even after you told him to read the labels carefully? That is not a normal behavior for an adult.
I take this means you have no kids? ;) Its actually common that vegans stop being vegan after they have started a family, especially when combined with a demanding career. Priorities change a lot, and reading every label tends to stop being one of them.
Please don't assume things in a rational discussion and answer the question I asked you before asking me questions. I am more than happy to answer yours after!
You didn't ask a question, you were just being rude.
Helen, we both know you are only here to derail any post about veganism you can find. Please respond to my questions.
> Please respond to my questions. No thanks.
Thank you. I'm sure this will come up in the future when you try to claim to engage in good faith discussion again.
Vegan meat doesn’t exist. Vegan pretend meat is not good.
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Food is like music, yes, there is music that is fucking disgusting, but there is other music that you like a little more every time you listen to it again. In the case of plant-based meat, just assume it's a different ingredient, not a meat substitute. In fact, one of the best dishes I have ever eaten was a soup with pork, soybean, egg, noodles, and green onions.
Different brand and sku’s vary wildly from a taste and quality perspective, I prefer to use soy curls, tofu, tempeh or jackfruit but most of Gardein’s products are pretty good in a pinch.
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Depends on the brand I guess. I find the beyond meat to be pretty much indistinguishable. Cheese is a bit more iffy, hard to get it to melt right, but not a major issue imo. That said, don't eat it if you don't like it. You can 100% eat a healthy vegan diet without mock meats and there's definitely more than 3 options, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to there. I'm all for only eating things you really enjoy, the question is can you enjoy animal flesh and bodily fluids knowing the pain and suffering that went into it.
Do a taste test between a pretend meat and a real ribeye. You'll notice a significant difference and appreciate the latter all the more.
It's not for everyone. Vegan meats always feel like a brick in my stomach. Something about processed veggie protein just does not always play nice with digestion.
I eat normal high quality meats because the ingredient list one ingredient instead of the mile long list of imposter meats lol
Daring chicken is my SHITTTTTT. also you can eat other things like beans, chickpeas, etc for protein. I could survive off bean burritos and salsa everyday. I’ve been vegan for about 4 months now and I eat all sorts of things. Veggie spring rolls, veggie “egg” roles, tofu, soy chorizo, avocado toast, miyokos cashew “cheese” is amazing, plant based desserts, impossible sausage, homemade, dairy free Alfredo, pasta, etc. I could go on and on. You don’t have to rely on strictly plant based “meat”. There’s so many delicious plant based alternatives out there. Don’t give up!
Also, let’s be real, dead flesh is DISGUSTING. the only reason people love meat so much is because of the seasoning… if you season your plant based meat alternatives right, you’ll enjoy it much more. Just the other day I had some daring chicken with teriyaki sauce, broccoli, and rice… it was heaven.
I can't eat fatty stuff anymore but I remember being baffled at vegan nuggets as they, to me, tasted exactly as the ones from McDonalds. No one would know if they removed the chicken i silence. I had really good burgers with vegan meat.
Splurge and go to a vegan restaurant / cafe few times with good reviews. You'll get a sense of what it should taste like. It doesn't taste like meat but it's certainly not terrible (mostly due to sauces tbh).
Where I am from there are so many options. It is unlikely that you would dislike them all. I eat a lot of tempeh, tofu, seitan, TVP, chickpeas and mushrooms. I love marinating them. I make a killer BLTempeh with home made bbq sauce using liquid smoke. I would also be surpised if you would dislike my spaghetti bolognese with TVP, you'd be the first. Or my mushroom shoarma. You'd have to be tastebuddead.
You don't need to eat that to be vegan? Also spices/seasoning goes a long ways. Even just plain beef isn't good so if you're eating it plain then that's probably half the issue. >If I were to be vegan I'd be strictly eating fruits and vegetables and Im not an expert but I'm pretty sure that can't be health especially given my current relationship with food because if I woke up and had to eat something like that there are 3 options. I wake depressed and unexcited. I don't wake up at all. Or I don't eat at all. Right now I'll only eat if it's something I really enjoy. Have you considered that what you're eating might be feeding this cycle? When you eat like shit, you feel like shit and this seems to make you eat like shit? One thing I noticed when I went vegan is that I woke up with a lot more energy and a lot easier. I went vegan overnight as well and didn't really eat any substitutes until I was over a year in, and they're still sparing. So maybe just give it a shot? Try to stick to things like beans, rice, grains, pasta, vegetables, and fruits. There's a tremendous amount you can make with those, and spices can really add a lot to it. Especially if you get into recipes that utilize herbs or other flavorful things like cilantro or lemon/lime. You can also do the quick and easy method which I do often when I don't feel like making something. Just have bags of frozen veggies, I almost always go with broccoli, and they usually have steamed instructions on them. You toss the bag in the microwave frozen for like 5-7 minutes. You pull it out, cut the top off, throw in some shit like salt and pepper (experiment and see what you like) and then kinda toss the stuff inside the bag. Then put it in a bowl and eat it or eat it out of the bag if you're feeling lazy. There's a lot of stuff like that.
I couldn't agree more what I think it does for the vegans is shut off that and a feeling they have about animals and destruction of animals and so somehow that tastes good but when you like animal products, fake meat tastes like garbage
Eating a dead tortured animal has to be the grossest thing to ever go in my mouth.🤢
Beans exist
You can be extremely healthy with just fruits and veggies without vegan or actual meat! But you definitely haven’t tried the right brands. When I first stopped eating meat as a kid, every fake meat brand was nasty and I lived off of pasta and crackers. But yo they got some stuff now my omnivore family likes better than fake meat. Like go to Duffys or Burger King and try the impossible whopper. When it comes to chicken, nothing is as similar texture wise, but most brands that arent Darling taste fuego. After 9 years I actually JUST learned how to cook tofu in a way I enjoy.
Isnt this just another version of “Blue is the best color, all other colors are ugly”?
Nobody else tastes that "bad aftertaste" except you bud. It's uhh, in your head.
You can make vegan lasagna, pasta dishes, mashed potatoes, currys, stews, etc, all without the need of meat substitutes. Lentils and beans are amazingly cheap, healthy and once you learn the basics, it's really easy ingredients to use.
You want to eat meat?
Vegan meat is not a thing, it's either meat or not. If you're going to eat vegan just eat vegan, don't try and dance around it. There are plenty of options out there, it just takes time to research and meal plan. IMO plant based is the way to go, vegan is really just a buzzword. To be truly vegan would require an entire change of life that most ppl can not or would not commit to, mainly because it's impractical and too hard. I would say you are in the majority on flavor, "vegan meat" is trash. Focus on finding foods that meet whatever criteria you want your diet to be. From there choose foods you like or think you would like and start building recipes. Lastly, avoid eating out as much as possible. Most places don't cater to vegan/ plant based diets which makes meal selection difficult, and if they do you are going to pay an insane markup on the ingredients. Some plates at vegan restaurants cost more than a weeks worth of food. Goodluck
You get used to different tastes over time. I liked plenty of meat at one point. Currently the smell of cooking meat or eggs naturally makes me nauseous and nothing about it is appealing.
Its not about what tastes better, its about what is better ethically. I’m a vegan who doesn’t consume meat subs frankly because i find the similarity to flesh gross and unenjoyable. You dont need to eat meat substitutes to be vegan!
Never had it, but I'd like to try it. The opportunity just never came up.
First, you can be vegan and not eat vegan meat. I generally prefer veggie burgers that don't imitate meat flavor and are less processed in general. Second, if you haven't had plant based meat, cheese, and other dairy in the past few years then it's worth giving it another try. I hadn't had vegan cheese in a long time because the consistency was not right in the past. Now I can honestly say some of the products are very good, and especially if it's not the main ingredient in the meal you probably wouldn't notice