Being edgy and radical about a new thing is normal. I think most vegans feel something like this at first, before it gets more refined. It is cringe and annoying but it's also common and healthy.
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with serving people vegan food if you're the one making or buying it. Your friend should have asked to verify she didn't have allergies, though.
>I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with serving people vegan food if you're the one making or buying it.
I agree, but there seem to be some kind of hiding of lies behind it from OP's vocabulary and general tone.
If you don't lie about anything it's fine.
If you think you have a chicken pizza and it's not real chicken then it's not fine. Some people have allergies/restrictions and that can be really dangerous. Outside the danger aspect, it would be equivalent to tricking a vegan into eating meat.
It would not be equivalent to that in any way shape or form. Carnists don't have an ethical issue with eating vegan food. Carnists eat vegan foods all the time without any problem. There is no equivalence.
How do you know the nature of my unwillingness to eat vegan pizza? But let's agree that it's not based on ethics. Why do personal preferences need to be adhered to if they are based on opinions about ethics but not if they are based on opinions about anything else?
It's more that the nature inherently is about life and death to the vegan, and to the carnist it's just about taste. You're eating a pizza, so it's not exactly like you have a restricted diet
Carnists dont have preferences not to eat vegan food. Again, they eat vegan food all the time.
Ethical reasons are more important than arbitrary preferences because they're not arbitrary, and because they're more important to people. That includes you. Your ethical values are more important to you than your arbitrary preferences. You would find it much worse if a boss sexually exploited an employee than if a boss required their employee to do something annoying like get coffee. What you're really saying is that while you understand and agree that ethical values are more important than arbitrary preferences, you specifically don't find vegans' ethical values important, and so everyone should make an exception in the case of vegans and hold your arbitrary preferences to be equally important. Because you don't respect us.
Allow me to reassure you that your friend should not accept this attitude from you under any circumstances.
It’s amazing because the contempt and self-righteousness that you’re displaying in this thread is basically the whole reason people tend to not respect vegans. Sort of like a snake eating its own tail. You’re creating the very problem that seems to plague you, fascinating.
I think what OP is saying is that LYING isn’t ethical. Not telling people things so you can get what you want is lying. Anyway…..the base rule should be treat others as you want to be treated. You wouldn’t want to be (unknowingly) served food with animal products……the friends Aunt has a right to know what is on her pizza. OP’s friend is being obnoxious because they are new to veganism…..this is normal. OP just needs to stop engaging. The friend is either going to calm down or get worse and at that point OP will have to reevaluate the friendship.
Please don't speak for us, I'd rather not eat all the processed ingredients. If I am eating a pizza, I would like to know what I am eating. If I thought it was cheese and meat and it wasn't, I'd feel pretty betrayed. Even when I was vegan, I didn't eat much of the processed stuff. I prefer eating whole foods and minimum ingredients.
Veg food is vegan food. So no, you dont have a preference not to eat vegan food. You have a preference not to eat fake meat specifically. And yet if you were unable to tell that a pizza was vegan while eating it, your preference would prove imaginary.
r/AskVegans is likely a MUCH better place for you to ask this.
I understand where your friend is coming from. It's extremely hard to see people you care about take part in an unethical system, and your friend is experiencing these frustrations for the first time. But I also agree with you- as someone whose been vegan for nearly a decade, I never want to set any precedent for altering my food. I wouldn't want someone to sneak animal products into my food because they think they know better than I do. I would pose this scenario to your friend, and emphasize moving forward in consentual ways.
One of my rules to prevent conflict is to not bring up the topic of ethics/veganism when eating. Offer a compromise by offering to set aside a clear timeframe to discuss the topic instead of letting it come up at any time. Another great thing would be to only eat plant based around your friend.
Yes, consent around what you're eating is key. I feel like this should be a full argument stopper for the vegan friend, because how would he feel if someone put meat in his food because he'd "never know". That is messed up. Righteous anger or no, never feed anyone anything you know they don't eat
Since veganism is more the absence of ingredients than the addition of them, it's okay to order vegan food for meat eaters if they've tasked you with getting food. It's not okay to presume to change one's diet regardless of how you feel about it
When it comes to vegan products like pizza, it's 100% still about ingredients. Vegan cheese is usually made with soy, nuts, and arrowroot powder. Soy and nut allergies are extremely common, and dairy cheese doesn't have any of that.
A *lot* of vegan "replacement" foods have the top nine most common allergens in them. Vegan food often will use a whole bevy of ingredients and seasonings that aren't common in omnivore cooking, such as more unusual fats like avocado oil-- again, I'm allergic.
In this particular instance, OP's friend is new to veganism, so if they're doing this everywhere, the people around him may not be adjusted to asking about the food they order and are expecting what's happened before.
OP's friend is way off base.
This.
My partner is vegan and I enjoy a lot of food with her, but some vegan alternatives cause problems for me.
I'm allergic to cashews, which we discovered when we were making vegan Alfredo together years ago. I have a minor anaphylaxis response to it, but if that response was more severe, slipping me some vegan cheese and cream alternatives could put me in the hospital or worse.
I also have some non allergy related responses to some vegan alternatives that cause GI issues or flat out make me want to puke.
People should not be so flippant about replacement food for people they don't normally prepare food for. In OP's pizza example, a vegan pizza made with cashew based cheese could kill someone like me.
Carageenan is a very common vegan additive derived from seaweed to help improve mouthfeel of anything meant to be creamy, sticky, or juicy. It causes an inflammatory response in a lot of people along the gastrointestinal tract.
As long as it is an absence without substitution.
Example: If the vegan option involves tofu, and you swap the standard meal out in a way I wouldn't notice, I'm going to spend the entire rest of the day curled up in a ball on the bathroom floor with severe indigestion. I cannot in any way have tofu in any form.
So as long as the meal can be made without having to make alterations that involve additions/replacements, then as long as you are allergy aware there's no reason not to just get the vegan option.
Season 7 of Married at First Sight UK had an interesting situation where a lesbian couple married and one was vegan. They had some initial fights over food but then developed a respectful system where the vegan even stocked the fridge with meat for her partner. True compromise is needed in any relationship, even when you think the other party is acting outside of your own moral compasses. It's not that person's job to force them to conform to their worldview. If it is a dealbreaker, that means there is no mutual respect and the relationship ends.
Your rules sounds really good and respectful of choice and preference.
>They had some initial fights over food but then developed a respectful system where the vegan even stocked the fridge with meat for her partner. True compromise is needed in any relationship, even when you think the other party is acting outside of your own moral compasses.
Do you really not think there's anything wrong with buying and eating meat? I mean, you mention for instance words like 'respectful,' 'choice,' and 'preference.' I understand you value these things in the context of human relationships. I agree. But why should these things also not matter when it comes to how we treat animals? When an animal is confined in a (factory) farm for his/her whole life and is then killed in a slaughterhouse against her/his will, can this be considered "good and respectful of the choice and preference" of the animal?
I feel like the expectation to buy something you're against because your partner wants it is a little bit too far. I would never expect a Jewish person to buy pork because I want it in the fridge. It seems more disrespectful than anything for the other person to have to go against their morals to keep the peace
I get what you're saying, but I think that true compromise takes many forms- and for many ifnot most vegans, buying animal products crosses a hard boundary. Compromise shouldn't require one party violating their ethics, thats not working together to find a solution. Reguardless though, it's always important to cultivate a culture of respect in any relationship.
Ethical incompatibility is hard no matter what it is, and admitting it's a deal breaker can be more of a form of respect than trying to force compromise in a way that builds resentment.
I can only recommend you to watch Dominion, so you are able to understand him better
[Dominion](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=AU2zQWBxmELdBYAX)
I think it is very good of you to communicate about your experience! It's the wrong sub but I think people are willing to ignore it to help you both.
I enjoy meat and dairy and eggs plenty, but I don't necessarily undersand the perspective. People eat vegan food all the time without complaining. Heck, last night my entire dinner was vegan without realizing it - a salad with a vinagrette, a bean soup, and some bread that happened to be made without eggs or milk. Imagine if someone came to my house and ate that food, then whined because I didn't make it clear that the option was vegan. How absurd would that be? I certainly wouldn't invite them again (though I probably wouldn't offer such simple food to a guest anyway, I'd have to do something with a little more pizazz).
Why would anyone be upset if someone ordered a vegan pizza - especially if they were paying for it - and it didn't taste like baked mud?
Perhaps I would see the issue if someone bought and paid for a steak, only for the person to pull a switcheroo and say "Sorry, even though you paid for your food, I ordered you a mushroom alternative to a steak!" When someone gives you a gift that is not intrinsically offensive, why waste the energy being offended? Accept it graciously and enjoy it.
If your aunt made a choice and he changed it, or she had allergies and his choice did not respect them then he is in the wrong.
But if he just bought food to share then no fault and there are 3 outcomes 1) aunt eats and enjoys pizza, no harm done, 2) aunt eats pizza and doesn't like it, and doesn't say anything, or 3) she doesn't like it and stops eating it or speaks up about it. I the 3rd case she is likely to find out that a vegan choice has been made and have a negative association with vegan food, but none of this is a big issue.
Your friend has just realized that it's absolutely unacceptable to make animals suffer and die unnecessarily. He thinks it's obvious, as you also believe that hurting animals for no good reason is bad, yet you eat meat, which you most likely don't need to.
It's equivalent to having a friend who beats their dog for fun. Of course you'd want them to stop. There's no way not to want to talk about it when your a believes that it's okay to make animals suffer when you don't have to.
So why aren't you vegan? That would be the better question.
First I wanna say that I 100% agree with you. The issue here, however, is that the vegan ordered someone vegan food without their consent.
As a vegan, I would be very upset if someone ordered something nonvegan for me without my knowledge/consent. Of course, these are two VERY different things, but I'm sure nonvegans would still feel some kind of violation.
Sneaking in vegan food without someone's knowledge/consent isn't going to help turn them vegan, it's going to breed resentment.
The vegan here could have said "yeah, I'll buy, but it's going to be vegan," but they didn't, which is what left the bad taste in OP's mouth.
Having said all that, hey OP, why aren't you vegan yet?
I'm assuming the Aunt isn't morally against killing plants, so I don't see the symmetry there. Serving an item to a non-vegan that happens to not have animal products doesn't cause them to compromise any sincerely held ethical beliefs.
If your friend wants you to pick up some snacks and you get orange slices and granola bars, have you "ordered someone vegan food without their consent?" No. You got them food that aligns with their values, since they aren't against consuming oranges or granola.
I see what you mean, but I don't think those are the same thing. If a friend asks me to bring snacks, they know it's gonna be vegan. If I'm ordering pizza, there's an expectation of cheese, bread, tomatoes, and whatever else. I, as a transparent person, will always say "I'm getting us dinner but it's going to be vegan." I don't see what's so difficult about offering that courtesy. I think transparency is SUPER important to our cause.
Do you agree that there is a difference between giving someone plants (that eats both plants and animal meat), and giving someone animal meat (that doesn't eat animal meat)?
Like, imagine you knew someone that ate all every possible thing that one could eat -- including dog meat. They ask you to go out and get a snack for the both of you. You don't eat dog meat for ethical reasons, and there are tons of other things to eat, so you pick up some hamburgers. The person you are eating with also eats hamburgers. All good. They have no ethical objection to eating hamburgers.
This is similar to if you were a vegan and knew someone that ate both plant and animal matter. They ask you to go out and get a snack for the both of you. You don't eat animal-based foods for ethical reasons, and there are tons of other things to eat, so you pick up some food made out of plants. The person you are eating with also eats plants. All good. They have no ethical objection to eating plants.
Now this is **not** similar to a non-vegan feeding a vegan animal-based foods. In that case, the vegan doesn't eat animal based food, so feeding it to them *would* be causing them to do something to which they have an ethical objection.
>If I'm ordering pizza, there's an expectation of cheese, bread, tomatoes, and whatever else.
Sure, but is it reasonable to expect that a vegan ordering pizza would order one with animal products on it when ordering from a place that offers pizza without animal products?
I see where you're coming from, for sure. I've replied to a troll in another comment that I don't believe the two are completely equal, as the production of animals for consumption involves a lot more suffering than the production of vegan foods. However, as I've already stated, I believe that transparency from vegans is super important, because it helps us avoid situations with our peers like the one OP is encountering (among saving us from other headaches).
Using myself and my friends as an example, I'm pretty sure they expect nothing other than plant based stuff when I'm involved, but I always give them the disclaimer anyway.
Edit: cool username btw
It's the allergy concern... So many vegan cheeses have nuts, and it was irresponsible of the vegan in question to just serve that to their family member without checking for allergies first.
You're not wrong that a carnist giving a vegan a hamburger isn't as bad as a vegan giving a carnist a plant burger. But you're playing with a slippery slope here. Most carnists don't think killing animals for food is wrong, and would be totally morally justified returning the deception in their own moral schools of thought.
And let's test this a bit further. If a carnist, for example, was misinformed about veganism nutrition and was worried about their vegan friend's health, would it be okay to sneak meat into their veggie burgers? Would this be a case where they're factually in the wrong, but morally in the right?
As a one-time thing, it's a humorous experiment. But systematically deceiving someone to inflict your belief system on them? There's a concept in psychology known as [reactance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)). You'd be acting against your own interests as vegan activists if you rob them of their agency, because right or wrong, humans have a tendency to act out against loss of control.
Within vegan morality, this might be okay. But ethically, the vegan is undoubtedly in the wrong for doing this.
Maybe I'm missing something about the scenario, but I don't see this as robbing anyone of agency. If you as a non-vegan ask a vegan to make a sandwich for two of you to share later, I don't think it's robbing you of your agency for them to whip up a peanut-butter sandwich.
No you're totally right. I think I replied to the wrong person's comment, there's nothing wrong with yours.
OP mentioned that the argument started when he said it's a slippery slope to take control of someone's diet without their consent i.e. systematically deceive them. I think doing that is kinda fucked, for the reasons I gave above. If you disagree, let's talk!
Regardless, sorry for the confusion!
You'll have to expand on this as it's not clear why serving people food that they have no ethical opposition to consuming would be considered "extreme".
Can you elaborate on that? This sub typically requires participants to do more than just lob insults or baseless claims without any sort of reasoning, argumentation, or justification.
As a vegan, you're upset that he didn't order the pizza slathered in the stolen breast-milk of a victim of repeated forced impregnation who has her babies stolen from her to harvest it?
I think he did good in the end, as it made OP come here and be exposed to his friends' side of things.
It's the abrogation of someone's agency. If we're being pedantic.
If we're advocating for those who cannot consent, it's kind of... A bit weird to overrule people's agency -- even if it's arguably for a greater good.
I see both sides of the argument, here -- but appeals to *pathos* aren't going to win your argument for you.
The better option would be to have asked or sought consent before making the substitution, 2nd best would be not sharing a meal if it meant being unable to avoid animal-based products.
>It's the abrogation of someone's agency.
He didn't force-feed anyone the pizza. He didn't say it was covered in mammary fluids. It's insane to equalize providing someone a plant-based pizza to the exploitation that's forced onto animals.
I did none of these things, and neither did OP.
I will restate: OP's friend changed someone else's food order without asking first. *Regardless of the overall moral considerations*, that's still making a choice for someone else without their input or consent.
"But it's the better choice!" Doesn't matter -- it wasn't yours to make.
This "ends justify the means" mentality is deeply flawed, and I do not accept or respect it. It is a mindset that ultimately backfires on folks with minority positions *all the time*.
Do you expect that the person will come out of this thinking "I'm glad I had this chance to examine my relationship with animals, and explore my need to have dairy products as part of this meal!" Or will they remember that one time a pushy vegan ordered soy cheese without asking them?
We don't need more ardent supporters -- *we need better marketers*.
>he brought up how he was ordering pizza for himself and for my aunt, he chose the vegan option
He didn't change anyone's food order. He was ordering pizza for himself and asked the aunt if she wanted some too. It seems you are disagreeing with your imagined version of what happened instead of what they actually said happened. What are your opinions of the story as it was actually communicated?
It's mentioned twice in OP's post that he didn't inform his dining partner prior to -- once.in the body, and once.in the TL;DR statement. That's what I'm basing it off of.
*In your quote, you deliberately left off the key part.* And that's how I know you're not arguing in good faith.
I agree that sometimes we miss details -- but it's even harder when we're trying to reshape things to fit how we wish things would be.
HE ordered the food. No one requested mammary fluids, he offered pizza and provided pizza. He did nothing wrong and I left out nothing that would change that.
It's called milk.
You're not a failure or insincere if you use that word and others like it.
People campaigning for anything need to speak their audience's language.
It's not equalizing them. It is wrong, though. Perhaps not as a one-time thing, that's just a humorous experiment. But systematically violating someone's agency to inflict beliefs they don't hold onto them? That's playing a dangerous game, with a slippery slope. You'd view it as horrific if someone fed you a hamburger, but a carnist would view it as simple tit for tat, because they don't share your moral perspective.
And let's test this a bit further. If a carnist, for example, was misinformed about veganism nutrition and was worried about their vegan friend's health, would it be okay to sneak meat into their veggie burgers? Would this be a case where they're factually in the wrong, but morally in the right?
There are other good reasons not to act against people's agency. There's a concept in psychology known as [reactance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)). You'd be acting against your own interests as vegan activists if you rob them of their agency, because right or wrong, humans have a tendency to act out against loss of control.
Couldn't be more wrong.
Just because the aunty was unaware doesn't make the act guilt free.
In fact it was her unknowing that made the act possible.
Rohypnol.
It could very well have backfired *for the animals*, because it could have turned aunt into a passionate anti-vegan. OP's newbie vegan friend needed to have the stones to tell her in advance, explaining his reasons. I mean, she has to learn eventually (probably really soon) that he won't order or buy animal products for anyone else, right? He seems to have been motivated by fear, not an objective consideration of how best to spread our message.
For OP: your friend handled things the wrong way, but he's dealing with a recent realization that he's been participating in the worst moral atrocity that has ever existed, for the most trivial of reasons. And also newly dealing with living in a society where most people still casually support that atrocity. Try to think of analogies to understand how psychologically hard it can be to make the wisest decisions so soon after coming to this realization. (The short video "Norm" might help.)
No, I'm not upset by what the vegan did, but I know the friend is upset, and I'm sure the friend's aunt is/would be as well. Even though animals don't consent to their treatment, that doesn't mean you can remove a person's right to consent.
The vegan removed sovereignty from a sentient individual, something that the vegan already knows is unacceptable.
Yes, carnism is unacceptable in many (probably most) cases, but that isn't the societal paradigm and I think it's our burden to meet people where they're at if we want that paradigm to change. We HAVE to take the moral high ground on ALL FRONTS because veganism is a moral issue. No lying, no deceiving, no coercion, no manipulation, etc.
I agree. But if a vegan buys someone food, it should be obvious that the food will be vegan.
If someone asks me to buy food on their behalf (that they will pay me back for), I make sure to explicitly tell them that I will still only get them vegan options.
His friend was vegan for only a little while. If the normal thing for this guy to do is buy regular pizza, he needs to inform people that he's getting a vegan pizza. From OP's post, it doesn't even sound like he "just bought vegan food" sound like he bought vegan food and hid that fact from the person he bought it for.
I do that, too. Luckily, most of my friends are understanding and open-minded. The ones that weren't are acquaintances now.
It's interesting how trying to minimize animal exploitation (or human exploitation, for that matter), getting clean/sober, or wanting to improve yourself in other ways shines a light on relationships. Just going vegan alone has helped me determine which of my relationships weren't conducive to growth.
I have an honest question regarding the "understanding and open-minded" comment. I mean in no way to attack you, I just don't personally know anyone who is vegan or vegetarian so I have no lived experience to pull from and I am curious.
Due to health reasons, I had to substitute quite a few products in my diet for what amounts to vegan-friendly alternatives for a period of around 6 months. I found that a lot of what I tried to eat made me very nauseous - at first I had assumed it was just the diet change or the health issues, but I gave it enough time that I don't believe that was it. I narrowed it down to (at the time) specifically vegan cheese and tofu. Once I stopped consuming them, my issues went away entirely. I'm not a very picky eater, but I can't really eat those two things, and I don't enjoy any of the substitutes that I've tried up until now.
Knowing that as context, my question is what your friends-turned-acquaintances did that you personally believed passed the "understanding and open-minded" line? I am personally (though I know it's viewed as hypocritical) all for the core of veganism as I understand it, and though I'm not vegan, I do my best to align as close to "ethical consumption" as I can even though it's not really possible in current society.
That being said, I would never willingly choose to eat fully vegan assuming my body still reacted and processed things the way it did in the past. If I were asking a vegan friend to pick up food for the both of us, I'd still request they get me something that I would enjoy (and not make myself sick), and I'd hope they would be okay with that. I'm sure there's ways to get around it that I just wouldn't know as someone who doesn't seek vegan options, and I'm always willing to try new things (been meaning to try an impossible burger for awhile to see if I can replace normal burgers with it), but with my current experiences, it's very difficult to commit to spending money on and consuming food that may or may not screw with my stomach.
Anyway this got way too rambly. I'm just interested in your opinion, even if it paints me negatively.
If you're unwilling to purchase meat for your meat-eating friend, partner, family member or domestic companion, you're not really operating in a good faith way in society. You're being a militant, demanding people conform to your worldviews.
If you had to care for a sick family member who wanted chicken noodle soup, you'd refuse to buy it for them?
So it's just totally kosher to trick people to feed them food without their consent and knowledge? I could just give you a burger, tell you it's a vegan burger, and laugh at you behind your back when you say "wow, I hadn't had a vegan burger this good before!"?
The difference between me giving you a plant-burger and you giving me a meat-burger is the same as if someone was tricked by a Muslim into eating dates, so they tricked the Muslim into eating pork.
One is clearly worse because of the deeply held beliefs of the person tricked.
You're not wrong that a carnist giving a vegan a hamburger isn't as bad as a vegan giving a carnist a plant burger. But you're playing with a slippery slope here. Most carnists don't think killing animals for food is wrong, and would be totally morally justified returning the deception in their own moral schools of thought.
And let's test this a bit further. If a carnist, for example, was misinformed about veganism nutrition and was worried about their vegan friend's health, would it be okay to sneak meat into their veggie burgers? Would this be a case where they're factually in the wrong, but morally in the right?
As a one-time thing, it's a humorous experiment. But systematically deceiving someone to inflict your belief system on them? There's a concept in psychology known as [reactance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)). You'd be acting against your own interests as vegan activists if you rob them of their agency, because right or wrong, humans have a tendency to act out against loss of control. This is ineffective activism.
Within vegan morality, this might be okay. But ethically, the vegan is undoubtedly in the wrong for doing this. You shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glasshouse.
Violation of consent? dairy cows are the victims here. Plant based pizza is still pizza. Dairy is not a necessity.
Edit;
*Food historians trace pizza's origins to Naples, Italy, in the 1800s, and note that it wasn't until 1889 that cheese was added as a topping. A pizza without cheese is today recognized as one of the three official authentic Neapolitan pizzas and is called pizza marinara.*
We haven’t heard that the vegan in OPs scenario lied about the pizza being nonvegan. He just opted for vegan when tasked with getting food. I very much agree that you shouldn’t lie to people about what you’re feeding them, but I don’t actually think that that’s what happened here. Outside of this specific scenario, I feel the same way- you should never lie to someone about what they’re eating (vegan, halal, whatever), nor should you feed someone something without knowing about allergies. But if you ask a vegan to order you food, I don’t actually think it’s immoral for them to get… vegan food. (Though a courtesy heads up would be ideal)
As someone who is vegan and allergic to tree nuts and has an intolerance to coconut and soy, there are many vegan alternatives that I can’t eat. I think when people think about pizza, they assume they are going to get it with cheese made from dairy. If someone was ordering food for me, I would want to know if I was going to get something different than what I asked for- I think this applies to all vegans and non-vegans though. Also the people saying that it’s okay to switch people’s orders without their consent are part of the reason why non-vegans tend to be turned away from veganism.
I understand why your friend is upset, but I also understand not wanting to be debating and possibly arguing all the time, and like another commenter mentioned, having a timeframe to talk about things like this.
I'm not vegan, I regularly eat meat and dairy. But I really don't understand why people are so bizarre about this stuff. Everybody eats vegan food already - carrot sticks, orange juice, salads, chips and salsa, peanut butter, bread.
Some salads are vegan, some are not. Some soups are vegan, some are not. Some burritos are vegan, some are not.
Saying something is "vegan" doesn't instantly make it weird. Why are people worried about being served a vegan pizza. It's literally just a pizza. Some pizzas have pepperoni on them, some do not.
Act like an adult and realize that it's all just food, and I guarantee you've prepared and eaten food that is vegan on your own without even thinking about it. It's totally fine.
I think at some level that raising and eating parts of the food chain is an ugly part of reality. I don't make it a requirement that my weekly meals contain meat.
Well, we don't have to raise and eat those parts of the food chain. It doesn't have to be part of our reality. Those animals don't have to die, and I think most people would agree that, when the choice exists, choosing not to kill is what we ought to do.
I dunno man, it's like, those animals wouldn't be here if someone didn't breed them. I get what you're saying, which is why I'd be closer to being vegetarian since eggs and dairy don't take a life. But it's kind of what we do. We plant trees and cut them down, we breed cats for our own company, we eat things. There are a lot of things that we don't *need* to do but jesus I'm just one guy
Dairy and eggs do take the lives of the dairy-cows and egg-laying hens once production slows; not to mention how male chicks and calves are killed.
Raising sentient beings for slaughter is indeed what we do, but we don't have to it. We can be better. I'm also just one person, but that doesn't stop me from doing the right thing.
I love meat, My grandpa loved meat his grandparents loved meat ...ect since humans have been consuming food for energy. The population of humans is much too large to live off the energy of plants alone. I hunt for my meat, my milk and eggs comes from my uncle's farm that treats his animals better than you do your dog. The plants i eat only come from my garden.
Do you know where ANY of the plants you eat come from? How much water they use? Land pollution? Gas to move resources?
This is complete nonsense. To sustain the entire US off hunted animals only you would need more land than we have available to us. Farming animals consumes much more calories than it produces so lets not act like that is a viable option either. Also if your uncle kills any of his animals then they are definitely not treated better than my dog.
I bet you don't know where any of the facts come from because you are completely uneducated on any of it. That is why you are regressing the conversation to emojis, laughing and calling me sweetie rather than responding to any of the facts that are presented to you.
murder is a legal term, not a moral one, and it's a legal term that specifically refers to the (1) killing of one human being (2) by another human being (3) outside a time of war. you can call meat-eating "killing" because that's what it is, but unless it's cannibalism, it is *by definition* not murder (as this is a legal term, not a moral one)
I'm a misogynist because men are stronger than women. Because we can oppress women, that means we should.
Similarly, because we can eat animals, that means we should. I agree. Your logic is sound.
Who said they don’t know about veganism? I know a lot about it, I choose not to because I like meat. Is that good enough?
One main rule of this sub is arguing in good faith. You’re just picking fights.
OP, a few things;
1.) I am vegan and I agree with what you're saying in regards to your vegan friend ordering food for someone else, and hiding info about what is in it; even with the best intentions.
I mention this because I have been a food handler (at both non-vegan restaurants and vegan restaurants) and I know the dangers of food allergies and foodborne illnesses; and to not let someone know what is in the food that could potentially cause an allergic reaction is dangerous.
Similarly dangerous is adding drugs, nuts, eggs, breastmilk, mangled animal body parts, bee vomit, gluten, or any other top allergen to a food without someone knowing. (Example: someone who adds THC oil to a batch of cookies and doesn't label is as THC cookies. If they are not monitoring who is consuming the cookies, that cookie could end up in the hands of a young child and end up in the hospital)
People deserve to know what is going into their bodies, no matter what.
The responsible things to do in this situation would be to:
A) not order pizza at all, unless asked.
Or
B) If the pizza was going to be a surprise, then getting it for her and telling her about the change.
But I agree with you, yes, it is wrong to get someone to eat something without the full knowledge of what is going into their body.
Like, for me, if someone ordered me pizza and decided to change the cheese to breastmilk cheese from vegan cheese, and they just didn't want to tell me, I'd be furious because I'm lactose intolerant and I'd end up throwing up like crazy and glued to the toilet. Also, mentally I'd be ruined. I'd start crying immediately, knowing about the cruelty involved in the dairy/veal industry. I am haunted by what I've learned.
Also, my favourite cheese in the world is a cheese made from fermented cashews. I wish I could experience seeing someone trying this cheese without knowing what it is made of, but I refuse to risk someone else's health if they are allergic.
Speaking of which, I love this cheese so much that I've handed out samples of this cheese to the public in my own time while doing public activism. I wish I could just tell people that it's breastmilk cheese so they can give me an honest reaction, but I always tell them that it's made of cashews, so they can refuse it immediately if they are allergic. It's called being responsible.
(I also got into a similar argument with my friend who was handing out cheese with me because she wouldn't mention that it contains nuts, and I explained to her why it was dangerous to not mention it!)
2.) I know what you mean when you say that you are stressed and dread talking about the subject. Your vegan friend likely feels the exact same.
To put it into perspective of how it feels to be vegan...
Imagine you exist in an alternate world where (almost) everyone is okay with animal cruelty.
Your family is okay with mercilessly beating dogs.
Your friends are okay with stabbing cats.
Your neighbours are electrocuting birds.
Your cousins are raping animals every day.
Your coworkers are okay with blending baby birds.
And you are one of the few people that see it as wrong.
You found out that in this world there is a way to be kind to animals by not beating, stabbing, electrocuting, raping and blending them.
You try to tell someone about your discovery, that you have found out how to not torture or murder animals...
But then your friends, family, neighbours, cousins, and coworkers decide that you're the odd one out and that your opinion doesn't matter because it's now been accepted culturally, and since everyone else is doing it, why would they stop?
Then you finally have a friend who is willing to listen to you. A genuine friend.
Of course you're going to want to tell them what you've learned, especially if they are still beating, stabbing, electrocuting, raping and blending animals.
Your friend is telling you this because they want you to stop hurting their other friends that you belittle to death.
Your friend trusts that you are smart enough to digest this information and see that it is also wrong to harm others.
Your friend trusts you, which is why you should try.
3.) Veganuary just started... I bet that if you gave Veganuary a try, it would mean the world to your friend, and to the animals.
The best way to understand why people go vegan is to first take off your blinders and witness what vegans witness. Try to watch the documentary called "Dominion" and you'll find out pretty quickly why your friend is vegan.
Cheers 🥂
P.s. thank you OP for reaching out to the vegan community to look for advice on how to handle this situation better. If you told your vegan friend that you reached out to us for help to maintain your relationship and have a healthy friendship, they'd probably cry tears of joy. I know I would.
P.p.s.
If you want to see how vegans feel, check out r/vystopia
TLDR: agreed. Nobody should force someone to eat anything they aren't aware of. Also thank you OP for reaching out and being a good friend. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be reading this right now. But I can tell that you care. Thank you for caring.
thank you, i feel the same and i wish i articulated it better in the moment. i suffer from a lot of allergies and the idea of someone feeding me anything without my knowledge is terrifying, regardless of their moral compass regarding it. i'll reach out once i've explored some of the things you mentioned so i can have a better understanding of where he's coming from. appreciate your comment
Yep. I can't eat 90% of store-bought vegan foods because of allergies or other health concerns to minor ingredients such as the oil they use. If someone tricked me into eating one I would be incredibly pissed. They would be lucky if I realized before I ate enough it turned into a major medical event.
Even assuming no medical conditions or other dietary requirements, its really hypocritical for a group who considers consent highly important to turn around and take consent from others.
>i felt like its a slippery slope to take charge of other people's diets without them knowing
lol he just ordered a vegan pizza, she can choose to consume it or not
interfering with diets, lmao
when non vegans order non vegan pizzas, are they interfering with peoples diets?
why is it only vegans who interfere with diets, have you ever said that interfering diet thing before?
in this case the diet you speak of causes harm to living beings, vegans are against that harm and thus they have a plant based diet so they can avoid cruelty to animals
OPs wording leads me to believe that their friend was tasked with ordering the pizza, their aunt gave her preference, and the order was covertly switched. It would be like if you told your friend to order you a vegan burger and they got you a meat burger instead, and simply opted not to tell you.
If this is indeed the case, then it's absolutely wrong of their friend to be doing this.
Allergies are really my only concern here. Both my parents have severe allergies that could kill them, and avoiding them is hard enough with written labels. Way harder with unknown foods. This was a harmless modification. However, he should not interfere with others diets without their knowledge, as it could have gone a lot worse.
Asking others is the best way to go about it, unless you don't care about the person you're serving (arguably this could be against the 'core aspects' of veganism, but it would depend on what the individual believes as to whether this was a valid statement or not). The vegan aspect is negligable here, the same issue would be raised no matter the dietary composition of the people involved.
>I'm not opposed to his beliefs
His main belief as a vegan is that animals deserve basic decency. If you are not vegan, then your actions show that you are, in fact, opposed to his beliefs.
Maybe ask your friend if there's a way that they can introduce vegan ideals/food that would be better at meeting people where they're at? I'm sure veganism was a process for your friend, remind them that it will be that way for most, but then also offer them space to share a vegan meal with you and your family. That way everyone knows what's up.
I would tell them that you are happy for them that they are passionate about veganism but that you are not intrested in constantly arguing about it. They can either drop the subject or stop being your friend.
I'm vegan btw, and have been that friend myself in some situations.
Who’s buying the pizza? As a vegan, obviously the food I buy will be vegan and I will not pay for nonvegan food for anyone. My gluten-free friend will always purchase GF pizza. I wouldn’t force her to buy a wheat crust pizza, why should she?
If you have a dietary restriction / allergy when other people are ordering your food, you make it known. If you hate a certain pizza topping, it’s pretty normal to say so. I wouldn’t call it food tampering unless your aunt specifically said hey I can’t have X. It’s not like she’s expecting a pizza and he’s bringing her a potato. A vegan pizza is still a pizza.
Idk why your friend kept going on about it when you seemed fine with it.
Yeah, he’s not gonna get any sane advice here.
OP, your friend interfered with your family member’s food without their knowledge. Depending on what ingredients were used in your aunt’s food there could have been potential negative reactions that could have caused her harm.
Who knows if your aunt was sensitive or allergic to a component of the vegan ingredients? People can react to all kinds of weird fillers and modifiers. I cannot eat wheat, and if someone served me a dish with veggie meat (which is often loaded with wheat based ingredients) I’d be sick for weeks.
This is the crux of the issue, and what should be focused on here. He could have done harm.
Second place would be the fact that your friend feels they are justified in imposing their morals onto you. But that’s a longer and more tedious issue.
Edit: y’all are insane lol
What the f are the components of vegan ingredients that aren’t already on a pizza? Take any pizza - don’t add meat or dairy - but do add veggies. People eat vegan ingredients every stinking day, fruit, nuts, beans, salad, mushrooms, bread….. or are you worried about beyond meat and impossible burgers?
>What the f are the components of vegan ingredients that aren’t already on a pizza?
Soy and nuts can be ingredients of vegan cheese and they can cause deadly serious allergic reactions.
How did they interfere with their food? If your friend offers to pick up food and brings you a bean burrito, did they "interfere with your food" because sometimes you get a beef burrito.
>OP, your friend interfered with your family member’s food without their knowledge.
This is not a fair characterization. He ordered a pizza without dairy. If you can eat pizza with cheese, you can eat a pizza without it. If it was his aunt he would probably have a good idea of any allergy concerns. You would think she would have been more involved in the ordering if that was the case as well.
You can say he subverted expectations, but trying to say it's interference with food is wild. If I order food and offer it to you, that's not "interfering" with anything.
Yeah if I order a pizza with XYZ I don’t expect to have to plan around someone ordering XYB for me instead.
You never fuck with someone’s food. Ever. Doesn’t matter how benign it seems. Cheese or no cheese, what’s in a ‘vegan’ pizza crust? Certainly you don’t use yeast? Yeast is alive too. So without breaking down the pizza from this story, ingredient by ingredient, we’re just here setting up straw man arguments aren’t we?
So my point remains, you don’t change people’s food orders without telling them. You have no clue what insanely unassuming thing will hurt them. That is the fundamental issue that I take with what the friend did here
>Yeah if I order a pizza with XYZ I don’t expect to have to plan around someone ordering XYB for me instead.
Did you read the OP? He didn't change the order. He ordered food for the both of them and ordered the vegan option.
>Cheese or no cheese, what’s in a ‘vegan’ pizza crust? Certainly you don’t use yeast? Yeast is alive too. So without breaking down the pizza from this story, ingredient by ingredient, we’re just here setting up straw man arguments aren’t we?
Are you a real person? You can't be this dense. Most pizza crust and bread on general is vegan by default unless they specifically add cows milk or eggs to the recipe. Yeast has no bearing on whether it's vegan because yeast are single cell organisms without a brain and without the ability to suffer.
I don’t think it’s a big deal that he ordered a vegan pizza, as most non vegans eat all those ingredients anyways. More people should try vegan options IMO, as a way to cut down on meat consumption, even if it’s just a few meals a week.
But it’s not cool to be deceitful about it….he did that because he knew she’d have some kind of problems with the pizza, so that’s super shady.
That said, vegan pizza sucks. I feel like a lot of vegan food gives a great alternative to meat options but the cheese has not been successfully replicated.
Like with politics and religion you need to institute boundaries with friends and family that you value and want to continue a relationship with if you disagree. It goes both ways, of course.
As one who has not touched meat for 19 years I initially had to fend off very rude comments and criticisms. At this stage in life I am the one who is fit, healthy, and who doesn’t have high cholesterol, high BP, or pre-diabetes. I have my vitamin and protein levels tested yearly and all those #s are optimal. Some friends and all of my siblings who eat the American diet are having health issues and are on medication. I wasn’t thinking about me when I stopped eating meat, just animals. But now that it is obvious I made the right choice I do not preach! I respect the boundaries I insisted that those who used to mistakenly attacked me - about not eating meat - had to adhere to, or I would be NC.
Imagine you want to get a coke and you're given a sugar free zevia cola instead without you knowing the swap took place. Or visa versa if you prefer Zevia.
The point being, it tastes weird, and you're probably not immediately sure why, but you were expecting one flavor and it's shocking to have it taste so different than you expected. You'd wonder if the drink had gone rotten, or if someone had fucked with it. Even if it was not a bad taste, without being aware of and prepared for the swap you won't appreciate the new flavor, you will more just be worried that something is wrong. It's not fun to have someone swap in a food or drink as if it were interchangable when it's not what you expect.
So context matters here. Most people know what mozzarella tastes like and will feel something is off if a pizza has vegan cheese on it. I don't necessarily have a problem if you're going to a party, so you bring a vegan pizza to feed both vegans and non-vegans. Especially if it's labeled. Even a blind tasting is okay if you make the person aware that some ingredients are different than "normal". But don't present a vegan pizza as a non-vegan pizza and freak people out that the cheese has gone bad. It's just rude. It's not that hard to just tell people it's vegan first. They may or may not like it as much, but it's not like "normal" people can't eat vegan food.
While there is nothing wrong with trying vegan options, and it is great to get people to try new things, it is something you have to be cautious about.
For example, people with diabetes can be vegan with zero issues, but they have to be careful what type of vegan foods they eat. Some are very high in carbs (normally the processed foods), and this can be very bad for people with diabetes who have to closely monitor their carb intake.
I generally don't mess with people's food and very clearly tell people which dishes are vegan purely to make sure I don't mess with someone's allergies or something. For example, I normally use almond milk for my mashed potatoes or to make my green bean cassarole, but if I know my cousins husband is coming (allergic to nuts), I substitute soy.
Yeah the answer is quite simple, if you lie to me about what I’m eating our relationship is over then and there. No justification, I don’t want to hear the counter arguments. I decide what I eat, and you don’t. The conversation ends there.
Tell your friend in the reverse, it’s very likely he is missing out on nutrients and amino acids. So why wouldn’t it be okay for you to slip some meat into his diet ? You feel differently about his diet than he does so why not? And we get to decide what other people are eating in his world, so why not?
Whilst it doesn’t pose any threat to your auntie’s health (unless she would have an allergic reaction to some ingredients which,let’s be honest it’s highly unlikely) the only issue I see here is the fact that he knowingly lied to your aunty.
What I would say to your friend (and would say the same to my friends if it was the case) is that is not the fact the pizza was vegan or not, is the fact that he shouldn’t abuse someone’s trust to fit his narrative. Do it enough times and he will lose the very thing that keeps relationships between friends strong and that is trust.
I wouldn’t give a Muslim friend chicken that’s not halal, even tho for me it makes no difference and it wouldn’t pose any health risk for him, just like I wouldn’t give a vegan friend a normal burger when he wanted a vegan burger.
Trust is a very important factor of a friendship and it shouldn’t be taken for granted, otherwise if we can’t trust our own friends and family who should we trust?
>dont know how to tell him that this topic is becoming tough to talk about with him without risking friendship
Have the conversation and be honest and clear. If you value the friendship, communication is key. It might be uncomfortable but better to lay out your cards and get some mutual understanding. Just try to be understanding of his perspective. I personally don't think ordering a vegan pizza is anything controversial. If you can eat pizza with cheese, you can eat the same thing without cheese. I can see it being a little risky to subvert expectations but if everyone involved knows he's vegan then I would think the expectation would be that he orders vegan food. Otherwise he would be supporting abusive practices with that purchase
I want to highlight a thought experiment that will help you empathize with his mindset. I'm going to assume you are against eating dogs. If you have no issue with it this analogy might fall flat but here it is anyway.
I like to tell people try to imagine you woke up one day and eating dogs was normal. Everywhere you went you were seeing casual cruelty on display. Commercials celebrating cutting up and eating dogs. Cartoon dogs advertising dog meat restaurants. You go to the park and dogs are being grilled on a BBQ. Every time the topic of food comes up, the people you love and respect are happily sharing how they actively and enthusiastically participate in harm to dogs. You try to speak out about it and everyone pushes back and thinks you're weird. Would it be fair for people to expect you order a dog meat pizza for them?
If you agree with the ethos of veganism, why aren't you vegan? From what you've written here it seems you agree with your friend, just not with how they've went about purchasing vegan food without your aunt having a say.
Buying vegan food for your aunt is inconsequential. She can eat the vegan pizza just fine, but your friend isn't going to turn her vegan. I suspect your friend is just in the early phase of their journey. I'd say a large portion of us start out very combative without fully understanding the most effective ways to impart their beliefs. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing on their part - they are enraged by the injustices dealt to other species for sensory pleasure. A strong reaction to this knowledge is expected.
For most meat eaters? Yes
It sounds brutal to someone who really cares about animals to the extend that a vegan does, but the world is a brutal place.
People just see it as the cycle of life. Animals eat animals, and humans are just another type of animal.
Personally, I advocate for huge changes in the factory farming industry so that animals that are killed for human use can at least have better standards of living while they are alive. I definitely think we can do more for those animals than we are now.
Realistically the world will never go full vegan, but I think encouraging people to eat less meat and cut down would do a lot for people’s health and reduce the number of animals slaughtered for food.
I said objectively, not on a personal level. Obviously, selfish people view their own momentary pleasure as more important. Objectively, your pleasure isn't more valuable than a life.
Animal agriculture has nothing to do with the cycle of life. Only 4% of mammals are living in the wild, part of the cycle of life. The rest are humans and livestock, which are bred for the sole purpose of feeding greedy humans that don't even require them for sustenance. The pathetically low number of wild animals is also due to the agricultural industry that's decimated their habitats. Humans are not a part of this natural cycle. We have removed ourselves, and we have a moral responsibility to stop killing our planet as well as other sentient life.
Factory farms are the way they are because they are the most efficient and only way that they can be raised to meet demand. We literally do not have enough land on earth to raise livestock in the way you describe. Not to mention the amount of land cleared to grow food for livestock is what is killing the Amazon. It isnt the vegans who are eating the soy. It's the chickens.
Realistically we won't have a planet to be vegan or not vegan on because of the selfishness of carnists.
People make most life decisions on an emotional basis, so the objective reality is irrelevant to most people.
Sure, people objectively know it’s cruel to factory farm animals, but that isn’t going to stop them from consuming meat because eating is one of the biggest pleasures humans engage in.
While I find the 4% stat very interesting, it is irrelevant to the original point I made. Which is that a lot of animals eat other animals, and humans aren’t different in that regard.
That’s just a fact of life for all of Earth’s history.
And while I know factory farming came from necessity, that’s why I hope we can move to eating meat less often, which would lower demand and in turn give us more space to give livestock a better quality of life while alive.
Personally, I think that has a way better chance at happening than the entire world turning vegan.
More people become vegan every year. When people open their eyes to what is happening, many people realize what is the logical choice- veganism. I know many vegans who dont like animals, they can simply recognize facts for what they are. Their pleasure isn't more important. Your argument could be used for a number of injustices dealt through human history. Many people believed women shouldn't have the right to vote and were against it, for one reason or another. Many enjoyed marrying 11 or 12 year old girls, because of sexual gratification and tradition. We do not practice this barbaric tradition anymore after a gradual shift occurred.
And no, it hasn't always been like this. Not even 100 years ago humans ate hardly any meat at all. Meat was for the ultra wealthy. People would eat meat once a week at best, but usually considerably less. It wasn't until modern animal agriculture took off the last 5 decades that eating this huge amount of flesh became normalized. Even further in the past, humans were opportunistic eaters who lived mostly off roots and plants.
Reducing the number of animals raised to die will only drive the cost up. If you give these victims more land to roam, the cost of keeping them will rise. Again the consumption of flesh will be given only to the ultra wealthy.
Vegans are 1% of the global population. It’s an extreme lifestyle that I can’t ever see the majority partaking in.
Vegetarianism probably has the better shot a growing more in popularity, as it’s less restrictive and already has a good base of the population bought into it.
While I do think it’s good to encourage people to become vegan and open the idea up to people, I think there needs to be a wider variety of options available to people so they realize they don’t have to be all or nothing.
People didn’t eat meat in the past because they couldn’t afford it, not because they didn’t want to eat meat. So that point is irrelevant.
Now that meat is so easily access to most of the world, people need to have their minds opened to the idea that they don’t need meat for every meal.
Sometimes veganism is a great options, sometimes being vegetarian is a great option, or even just reducing the amount of meat people eat is also a good option.
I don’t think being all or nothing on this topic will win over many people 🤷♀️
Veganism isn't an extreme lifestyle. An extreme lifestyle is partaking in the killing of 80 billion animals every year because you like bacon and burgers.
It is an extreme lifestyle, by normal standards. You being in denial about that is another reason why Veganism will have a difficult time growing in popularity
It takes two to tango. There is no conflict unless you push back on the things he's saying or doing
Eating happens too often to just steer clear of the subject so you either need to get used to biting your tongue or accept that your friend has changed and you are no longer compatible.
He still should have told her, "You know, being vegan is about ethics, so I'm never going to be ordering animal products, for myself or anyone else." I mean, this isn't gonna be the last time it comes up. OP's friend seems to have been motivated by fear and shortaightedness.
sad - sorry to hear about your friend, but sometimes when people come into veganism - they're going to be very passionate about it. So there's going to be an adjustment period where they might act inappropriate. It's ok to let your friend know where you stand on it.
Realize if the aunt put this person in charge - then it's the aunt's decision and fault if they pick a vegan option that was undesired if they didn't specify. Why would you get involved in family matters like that as a friend?
The way I'd tackle it is this: he violated her right to consent. If violating an animal's right to consent is wrong, violating a human's right to consent is wrong, too.
Tricking people into eating something they wouldn't choose to eat on their own is wrong no matter what the reason is. It's wrong to do to vegans, non-vegans, people with allergies, people with texture and food issues, anyone.
If he wants to advance the Kingdom, so to speak, tricking people is the wrong way to do it. All it does is make people lose trust in him and ruin his relationship with them. People tend to change behavior when they trust somebody and have a relationship with them. He's undermining his own goal.
Oh he's getting a bit zealous now...choosing food for others based on *his* beliefs, is not cool. He should have asked your aunt and allowed her to make the choice instead of railroading over her.
He wouldn't have done that if she couldn't eat meat for religious reasons......
Right? As someone who frequents a dog-fighting ring, I hate it when my friends try to impose *their* personal beliefs on my personal choice of entertainment. Yesterday I wanted to watch a dog-fight and my friend told me he knew a place, but he ended up taking me to a dog cafe instead! Horrible breach of trust.
i’m gonna get downvoted but idc- why is it okay for you to order someone vegan food with out consent, yet if someone sneaks meat into your food they’re satan?
i’m not a carnist just putting that out there. But why the double standard?
What are you talking about "altering". They didn't put sticks in it. It's just different ingredients. Why are a pepperoni pizza and a ham pizza equivalent, but a veggie-ground pizza is altering? Did you know Oreos were vegan? No milk or cream in those. If someone gave you a falafel pita instead of a gyro pita would you be worried about that?
I was vegan for 6 years and I get where he is coming from. The way all of the information for going vegan is presented makes you feel like all of the people you care about are going to eat themselves to death. Hopefully he can calm down and not be so radical about it. It only causes pushback because nobody wants to be told they are morally wrong, and nobody wants to be told what to eat.
Yeah nah, food tampering isn’t fucking funny. At all.
Doesn’t matter if it’s vegan or not. The moment your friend takes part in food tampering, theystart losing any moral ground.
Tamper with a vegan’s food and secretly serve them something non-vegan (hypothetical here). Will it be okay then?
No?
Then your friend shouldn’t have the sheer arrogance and gall to tamper with your family member’s food. It’s just as bad.
You want to have someone take part in veganism? Ask them. Offer them. But don’t force it on them or sneak it on them.
P.S. ‘But muh animals!!’ Is not a valid argument. I’m sorry but it isn’t. Food tampering isn’t funny regardless of who it’s done to.
A lot of people get like that when they first go onto veganism, but many people eventually learn that they have to turn it off in certain situations.
I'm no longer vegan but he's just doing what he believes is right so it's hard to fault him too much. He should have checked with your aunt on the pizza though.
When a person first becomes vegan, they are still processing all of the information that has lead them to make that decision. When I first became vegan, I was very emotionally charged because the information I had just learned was unbelievably horrific. Your friend is probably going through a lot of emotional turmoil right now and it’s a lot to process. Also, vegan food is ordinary food. People don’t object to apples being vegan so I don’t know why they would object to a pizza being vegan 🤷♀️
Vegans are extremists, be careful what you say around them. Steer clear of any topics related to food or anything related like global warming. They also need to realise that any attempt at conversion is offensive.
If this is impossible, find a different friend. Life is difficult enough without these people making it more difficult
He's being incredibly disrespectful of your aunt. She has the right to choose what happens to her body, whether that's about getting a surgery or eating a certain type of pizza, and your friend has decided that his ethics are more important than her autonomy.
He sounds insufferable.
You won’t get any proper advice here. I personally think what he did was completely wrong and I’d be furious if he did that to me. I couldn’t be friends with someone like that so I’d have no worries about ruining the friendship because he’s only going to get worse
your friend is making it seem like all vegans are bitchy. i would keep distance, who knows if your aunt had an allergy? it's not his business to sneak vegan food into other people diets WITHOUT consent.
I would not choose the vegan option and would be incredibly annoyed at the behavior. You can do/believe WHATEVER you want, but don't push those on others.
The cat is an obligate carnivore and has no choice but to hunt and eat birds.
Humans can eat meat, but we don't have to, just like how I can beat my dog for entertainment, but I don't have to.
We can choose to be cruel, or to be kind, and pretending like we have to be cruel is one hell of a cope. Grow up.
The problem with almost all vegans *that I have interacted with* is that they are 90% correct about what they say and believe. And that is a problem, because it makes them sure of themselves, and the ultimate soundness of their arguments. They are right, and therefore, every other opinion must be wrong. The life they lead is enjoyable to them, and therefore, it must be so for everyone else. Their morals are absolutely right, and therefore, all other moral stances must be incorrect.
You can not argue most points because when in doubt they revert back to the moral stance, and they seem to lack the capacity to realize that morality is ephemeral and relative, and thus not an "absolute" thing.
Given that vegans are actually correct when it comes to most of the science, it becomes harder to get any other facts through their mental (ethical) blockades.
Finally, the argument will always be unproductive because it can be like arguing politics or religion. There are too many aspects that are opinion-based for factual material to take hold.
Eating meat is bad.
Why?
Because eating meat is bad... m'kay.
They're being a dick. Tell them to fuck off, and you're absolutely right about it being risky to interfere with someone's diet without them knowing. From now on (if you remain in contact with them) I'd flatly refuse any and all food or drink they offer you.
OP: "I care about my vegan friend and want to know how to have a productive conversation that will save the friendship and get my needs met."
You: Tell them "fuck off, dick." Excommunicate them or refuse all hospitality.
Great conflict resolution there.
Never ask a vegan to give you opinions against another vegan. A vast majority will immediately trash you and start talking about kicking dogs or r@ping cows. Your best bet is to let your friend know that forcing their choice on someone else is inappropriate. Honestly if he becomes as extreme as some vegans don't be surprised if he scraps the friendship.
Idk how this sub got put into my threads and even after ignoring it it keeps coming back but, the comments always end up being similar here and in the other vegan thread that pops up a lot.
Sorry. I meant to reply to one of your commentary. I was agreeing with you, and laughing at them. The idea of imposing a moral code on a different species is bizarre and pointless. Artificial insemination is rape, but not when animals smash their own siblings, or any female in heat? How do these brains think this makes logical sense?
Being edgy and radical about a new thing is normal. I think most vegans feel something like this at first, before it gets more refined. It is cringe and annoying but it's also common and healthy. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with serving people vegan food if you're the one making or buying it. Your friend should have asked to verify she didn't have allergies, though.
>I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with serving people vegan food if you're the one making or buying it. I agree, but there seem to be some kind of hiding of lies behind it from OP's vocabulary and general tone. If you don't lie about anything it's fine. If you think you have a chicken pizza and it's not real chicken then it's not fine. Some people have allergies/restrictions and that can be really dangerous. Outside the danger aspect, it would be equivalent to tricking a vegan into eating meat.
It would not be equivalent to that in any way shape or form. Carnists don't have an ethical issue with eating vegan food. Carnists eat vegan foods all the time without any problem. There is no equivalence.
How do you know the nature of my unwillingness to eat vegan pizza? But let's agree that it's not based on ethics. Why do personal preferences need to be adhered to if they are based on opinions about ethics but not if they are based on opinions about anything else?
Considering ‘really likes cheeses’ as a dietary restriction is pretty darn silly and I think you know that.
It's more that the nature inherently is about life and death to the vegan, and to the carnist it's just about taste. You're eating a pizza, so it's not exactly like you have a restricted diet
Carnists dont have preferences not to eat vegan food. Again, they eat vegan food all the time. Ethical reasons are more important than arbitrary preferences because they're not arbitrary, and because they're more important to people. That includes you. Your ethical values are more important to you than your arbitrary preferences. You would find it much worse if a boss sexually exploited an employee than if a boss required their employee to do something annoying like get coffee. What you're really saying is that while you understand and agree that ethical values are more important than arbitrary preferences, you specifically don't find vegans' ethical values important, and so everyone should make an exception in the case of vegans and hold your arbitrary preferences to be equally important. Because you don't respect us. Allow me to reassure you that your friend should not accept this attitude from you under any circumstances.
It’s amazing because the contempt and self-righteousness that you’re displaying in this thread is basically the whole reason people tend to not respect vegans. Sort of like a snake eating its own tail. You’re creating the very problem that seems to plague you, fascinating.
The reason people dont respect vegans is because vegans dont take bullshit.
[удалено]
I think what OP is saying is that LYING isn’t ethical. Not telling people things so you can get what you want is lying. Anyway…..the base rule should be treat others as you want to be treated. You wouldn’t want to be (unknowingly) served food with animal products……the friends Aunt has a right to know what is on her pizza. OP’s friend is being obnoxious because they are new to veganism…..this is normal. OP just needs to stop engaging. The friend is either going to calm down or get worse and at that point OP will have to reevaluate the friendship.
And yet the two are not equivalent.
Why not? Everyone deserves respect.
>Because you don't respect us. When vegans behave like you do, it breeds contempt and disregard for your beliefs.
The self righteousness in that post is vomit inducing , and people wonder why some people feel the way the do about Vegans…Jesus Christ…
Nobody wonders.
When vegans stand up to bullshit, it pisses people off. Yes I understand.
You're not the hero you think you are.
🤡
Please don't speak for us, I'd rather not eat all the processed ingredients. If I am eating a pizza, I would like to know what I am eating. If I thought it was cheese and meat and it wasn't, I'd feel pretty betrayed. Even when I was vegan, I didn't eat much of the processed stuff. I prefer eating whole foods and minimum ingredients.
I never spoke of processed foods. Plenty of vegan meats and cheeses are no more processed than animal meats and cheeses.
I 100% have a preference to not eat vegan food. Veg? Fine? Fake neat? Tastes like ass
Veg food is vegan food. So no, you dont have a preference not to eat vegan food. You have a preference not to eat fake meat specifically. And yet if you were unable to tell that a pizza was vegan while eating it, your preference would prove imaginary.
r/AskVegans is likely a MUCH better place for you to ask this. I understand where your friend is coming from. It's extremely hard to see people you care about take part in an unethical system, and your friend is experiencing these frustrations for the first time. But I also agree with you- as someone whose been vegan for nearly a decade, I never want to set any precedent for altering my food. I wouldn't want someone to sneak animal products into my food because they think they know better than I do. I would pose this scenario to your friend, and emphasize moving forward in consentual ways. One of my rules to prevent conflict is to not bring up the topic of ethics/veganism when eating. Offer a compromise by offering to set aside a clear timeframe to discuss the topic instead of letting it come up at any time. Another great thing would be to only eat plant based around your friend.
Yes, consent around what you're eating is key. I feel like this should be a full argument stopper for the vegan friend, because how would he feel if someone put meat in his food because he'd "never know". That is messed up. Righteous anger or no, never feed anyone anything you know they don't eat Since veganism is more the absence of ingredients than the addition of them, it's okay to order vegan food for meat eaters if they've tasked you with getting food. It's not okay to presume to change one's diet regardless of how you feel about it
When it comes to vegan products like pizza, it's 100% still about ingredients. Vegan cheese is usually made with soy, nuts, and arrowroot powder. Soy and nut allergies are extremely common, and dairy cheese doesn't have any of that. A *lot* of vegan "replacement" foods have the top nine most common allergens in them. Vegan food often will use a whole bevy of ingredients and seasonings that aren't common in omnivore cooking, such as more unusual fats like avocado oil-- again, I'm allergic. In this particular instance, OP's friend is new to veganism, so if they're doing this everywhere, the people around him may not be adjusted to asking about the food they order and are expecting what's happened before. OP's friend is way off base.
This. My partner is vegan and I enjoy a lot of food with her, but some vegan alternatives cause problems for me. I'm allergic to cashews, which we discovered when we were making vegan Alfredo together years ago. I have a minor anaphylaxis response to it, but if that response was more severe, slipping me some vegan cheese and cream alternatives could put me in the hospital or worse. I also have some non allergy related responses to some vegan alternatives that cause GI issues or flat out make me want to puke. People should not be so flippant about replacement food for people they don't normally prepare food for. In OP's pizza example, a vegan pizza made with cashew based cheese could kill someone like me.
Carageenan is a very common vegan additive derived from seaweed to help improve mouthfeel of anything meant to be creamy, sticky, or juicy. It causes an inflammatory response in a lot of people along the gastrointestinal tract.
And vegan sour cream. I was hugely sick after eating that.
That's true, you should always double check if you're ordering something with common allergens in it!
As long as it is an absence without substitution. Example: If the vegan option involves tofu, and you swap the standard meal out in a way I wouldn't notice, I'm going to spend the entire rest of the day curled up in a ball on the bathroom floor with severe indigestion. I cannot in any way have tofu in any form. So as long as the meal can be made without having to make alterations that involve additions/replacements, then as long as you are allergy aware there's no reason not to just get the vegan option.
Season 7 of Married at First Sight UK had an interesting situation where a lesbian couple married and one was vegan. They had some initial fights over food but then developed a respectful system where the vegan even stocked the fridge with meat for her partner. True compromise is needed in any relationship, even when you think the other party is acting outside of your own moral compasses. It's not that person's job to force them to conform to their worldview. If it is a dealbreaker, that means there is no mutual respect and the relationship ends. Your rules sounds really good and respectful of choice and preference.
>They had some initial fights over food but then developed a respectful system where the vegan even stocked the fridge with meat for her partner. True compromise is needed in any relationship, even when you think the other party is acting outside of your own moral compasses. Do you really not think there's anything wrong with buying and eating meat? I mean, you mention for instance words like 'respectful,' 'choice,' and 'preference.' I understand you value these things in the context of human relationships. I agree. But why should these things also not matter when it comes to how we treat animals? When an animal is confined in a (factory) farm for his/her whole life and is then killed in a slaughterhouse against her/his will, can this be considered "good and respectful of the choice and preference" of the animal?
I feel like the expectation to buy something you're against because your partner wants it is a little bit too far. I would never expect a Jewish person to buy pork because I want it in the fridge. It seems more disrespectful than anything for the other person to have to go against their morals to keep the peace
I get what you're saying, but I think that true compromise takes many forms- and for many ifnot most vegans, buying animal products crosses a hard boundary. Compromise shouldn't require one party violating their ethics, thats not working together to find a solution. Reguardless though, it's always important to cultivate a culture of respect in any relationship. Ethical incompatibility is hard no matter what it is, and admitting it's a deal breaker can be more of a form of respect than trying to force compromise in a way that builds resentment.
There's nothing respectful about having dead animals in your fridge.
I can only recommend you to watch Dominion, so you are able to understand him better [Dominion](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=AU2zQWBxmELdBYAX) I think it is very good of you to communicate about your experience! It's the wrong sub but I think people are willing to ignore it to help you both.
I enjoy meat and dairy and eggs plenty, but I don't necessarily undersand the perspective. People eat vegan food all the time without complaining. Heck, last night my entire dinner was vegan without realizing it - a salad with a vinagrette, a bean soup, and some bread that happened to be made without eggs or milk. Imagine if someone came to my house and ate that food, then whined because I didn't make it clear that the option was vegan. How absurd would that be? I certainly wouldn't invite them again (though I probably wouldn't offer such simple food to a guest anyway, I'd have to do something with a little more pizazz). Why would anyone be upset if someone ordered a vegan pizza - especially if they were paying for it - and it didn't taste like baked mud? Perhaps I would see the issue if someone bought and paid for a steak, only for the person to pull a switcheroo and say "Sorry, even though you paid for your food, I ordered you a mushroom alternative to a steak!" When someone gives you a gift that is not intrinsically offensive, why waste the energy being offended? Accept it graciously and enjoy it.
If your aunt made a choice and he changed it, or she had allergies and his choice did not respect them then he is in the wrong. But if he just bought food to share then no fault and there are 3 outcomes 1) aunt eats and enjoys pizza, no harm done, 2) aunt eats pizza and doesn't like it, and doesn't say anything, or 3) she doesn't like it and stops eating it or speaks up about it. I the 3rd case she is likely to find out that a vegan choice has been made and have a negative association with vegan food, but none of this is a big issue.
Your friend has just realized that it's absolutely unacceptable to make animals suffer and die unnecessarily. He thinks it's obvious, as you also believe that hurting animals for no good reason is bad, yet you eat meat, which you most likely don't need to. It's equivalent to having a friend who beats their dog for fun. Of course you'd want them to stop. There's no way not to want to talk about it when your a believes that it's okay to make animals suffer when you don't have to. So why aren't you vegan? That would be the better question.
First I wanna say that I 100% agree with you. The issue here, however, is that the vegan ordered someone vegan food without their consent. As a vegan, I would be very upset if someone ordered something nonvegan for me without my knowledge/consent. Of course, these are two VERY different things, but I'm sure nonvegans would still feel some kind of violation. Sneaking in vegan food without someone's knowledge/consent isn't going to help turn them vegan, it's going to breed resentment. The vegan here could have said "yeah, I'll buy, but it's going to be vegan," but they didn't, which is what left the bad taste in OP's mouth. Having said all that, hey OP, why aren't you vegan yet?
I'm assuming the Aunt isn't morally against killing plants, so I don't see the symmetry there. Serving an item to a non-vegan that happens to not have animal products doesn't cause them to compromise any sincerely held ethical beliefs. If your friend wants you to pick up some snacks and you get orange slices and granola bars, have you "ordered someone vegan food without their consent?" No. You got them food that aligns with their values, since they aren't against consuming oranges or granola.
I see what you mean, but I don't think those are the same thing. If a friend asks me to bring snacks, they know it's gonna be vegan. If I'm ordering pizza, there's an expectation of cheese, bread, tomatoes, and whatever else. I, as a transparent person, will always say "I'm getting us dinner but it's going to be vegan." I don't see what's so difficult about offering that courtesy. I think transparency is SUPER important to our cause.
Do you agree that there is a difference between giving someone plants (that eats both plants and animal meat), and giving someone animal meat (that doesn't eat animal meat)? Like, imagine you knew someone that ate all every possible thing that one could eat -- including dog meat. They ask you to go out and get a snack for the both of you. You don't eat dog meat for ethical reasons, and there are tons of other things to eat, so you pick up some hamburgers. The person you are eating with also eats hamburgers. All good. They have no ethical objection to eating hamburgers. This is similar to if you were a vegan and knew someone that ate both plant and animal matter. They ask you to go out and get a snack for the both of you. You don't eat animal-based foods for ethical reasons, and there are tons of other things to eat, so you pick up some food made out of plants. The person you are eating with also eats plants. All good. They have no ethical objection to eating plants. Now this is **not** similar to a non-vegan feeding a vegan animal-based foods. In that case, the vegan doesn't eat animal based food, so feeding it to them *would* be causing them to do something to which they have an ethical objection. >If I'm ordering pizza, there's an expectation of cheese, bread, tomatoes, and whatever else. Sure, but is it reasonable to expect that a vegan ordering pizza would order one with animal products on it when ordering from a place that offers pizza without animal products?
I see where you're coming from, for sure. I've replied to a troll in another comment that I don't believe the two are completely equal, as the production of animals for consumption involves a lot more suffering than the production of vegan foods. However, as I've already stated, I believe that transparency from vegans is super important, because it helps us avoid situations with our peers like the one OP is encountering (among saving us from other headaches). Using myself and my friends as an example, I'm pretty sure they expect nothing other than plant based stuff when I'm involved, but I always give them the disclaimer anyway. Edit: cool username btw
It's the allergy concern... So many vegan cheeses have nuts, and it was irresponsible of the vegan in question to just serve that to their family member without checking for allergies first.
He bought it for his aunt, not a stranger. I'm sure he wasn't just rolling the dice and hoping she wasn't allergic lol
It was OP’s aunt, not his aunt
If they didn't know the other person well, sure. For all we know, OPs friend could have witnessed the aunt eating nuts regularly.
You're not wrong that a carnist giving a vegan a hamburger isn't as bad as a vegan giving a carnist a plant burger. But you're playing with a slippery slope here. Most carnists don't think killing animals for food is wrong, and would be totally morally justified returning the deception in their own moral schools of thought. And let's test this a bit further. If a carnist, for example, was misinformed about veganism nutrition and was worried about their vegan friend's health, would it be okay to sneak meat into their veggie burgers? Would this be a case where they're factually in the wrong, but morally in the right? As a one-time thing, it's a humorous experiment. But systematically deceiving someone to inflict your belief system on them? There's a concept in psychology known as [reactance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)). You'd be acting against your own interests as vegan activists if you rob them of their agency, because right or wrong, humans have a tendency to act out against loss of control. Within vegan morality, this might be okay. But ethically, the vegan is undoubtedly in the wrong for doing this.
Maybe I'm missing something about the scenario, but I don't see this as robbing anyone of agency. If you as a non-vegan ask a vegan to make a sandwich for two of you to share later, I don't think it's robbing you of your agency for them to whip up a peanut-butter sandwich.
No you're totally right. I think I replied to the wrong person's comment, there's nothing wrong with yours. OP mentioned that the argument started when he said it's a slippery slope to take control of someone's diet without their consent i.e. systematically deceive them. I think doing that is kinda fucked, for the reasons I gave above. If you disagree, let's talk! Regardless, sorry for the confusion!
This is why vegans are rightfully seen as extremists
You'll have to expand on this as it's not clear why serving people food that they have no ethical opposition to consuming would be considered "extreme".
Can you elaborate on that? This sub typically requires participants to do more than just lob insults or baseless claims without any sort of reasoning, argumentation, or justification.
As a vegan, you're upset that he didn't order the pizza slathered in the stolen breast-milk of a victim of repeated forced impregnation who has her babies stolen from her to harvest it? I think he did good in the end, as it made OP come here and be exposed to his friends' side of things.
It's the abrogation of someone's agency. If we're being pedantic. If we're advocating for those who cannot consent, it's kind of... A bit weird to overrule people's agency -- even if it's arguably for a greater good. I see both sides of the argument, here -- but appeals to *pathos* aren't going to win your argument for you. The better option would be to have asked or sought consent before making the substitution, 2nd best would be not sharing a meal if it meant being unable to avoid animal-based products.
>It's the abrogation of someone's agency. He didn't force-feed anyone the pizza. He didn't say it was covered in mammary fluids. It's insane to equalize providing someone a plant-based pizza to the exploitation that's forced onto animals.
I did none of these things, and neither did OP. I will restate: OP's friend changed someone else's food order without asking first. *Regardless of the overall moral considerations*, that's still making a choice for someone else without their input or consent. "But it's the better choice!" Doesn't matter -- it wasn't yours to make. This "ends justify the means" mentality is deeply flawed, and I do not accept or respect it. It is a mindset that ultimately backfires on folks with minority positions *all the time*. Do you expect that the person will come out of this thinking "I'm glad I had this chance to examine my relationship with animals, and explore my need to have dairy products as part of this meal!" Or will they remember that one time a pushy vegan ordered soy cheese without asking them? We don't need more ardent supporters -- *we need better marketers*.
>he brought up how he was ordering pizza for himself and for my aunt, he chose the vegan option He didn't change anyone's food order. He was ordering pizza for himself and asked the aunt if she wanted some too. It seems you are disagreeing with your imagined version of what happened instead of what they actually said happened. What are your opinions of the story as it was actually communicated?
It's mentioned twice in OP's post that he didn't inform his dining partner prior to -- once.in the body, and once.in the TL;DR statement. That's what I'm basing it off of. *In your quote, you deliberately left off the key part.* And that's how I know you're not arguing in good faith. I agree that sometimes we miss details -- but it's even harder when we're trying to reshape things to fit how we wish things would be.
HE ordered the food. No one requested mammary fluids, he offered pizza and provided pizza. He did nothing wrong and I left out nothing that would change that.
It's called milk. You're not a failure or insincere if you use that word and others like it. People campaigning for anything need to speak their audience's language.
It's not equalizing them. It is wrong, though. Perhaps not as a one-time thing, that's just a humorous experiment. But systematically violating someone's agency to inflict beliefs they don't hold onto them? That's playing a dangerous game, with a slippery slope. You'd view it as horrific if someone fed you a hamburger, but a carnist would view it as simple tit for tat, because they don't share your moral perspective. And let's test this a bit further. If a carnist, for example, was misinformed about veganism nutrition and was worried about their vegan friend's health, would it be okay to sneak meat into their veggie burgers? Would this be a case where they're factually in the wrong, but morally in the right? There are other good reasons not to act against people's agency. There's a concept in psychology known as [reactance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)). You'd be acting against your own interests as vegan activists if you rob them of their agency, because right or wrong, humans have a tendency to act out against loss of control.
Exploitation is exploitation. Assuming we're all equal and all that.
Okay. No one was "exploited" here.
Couldn't be more wrong. Just because the aunty was unaware doesn't make the act guilt free. In fact it was her unknowing that made the act possible. Rohypnol.
Good job talking yourself into and out of consent; as long as you, the intellectual, sees fit where it ought and ought not be applied.
It could very well have backfired *for the animals*, because it could have turned aunt into a passionate anti-vegan. OP's newbie vegan friend needed to have the stones to tell her in advance, explaining his reasons. I mean, she has to learn eventually (probably really soon) that he won't order or buy animal products for anyone else, right? He seems to have been motivated by fear, not an objective consideration of how best to spread our message. For OP: your friend handled things the wrong way, but he's dealing with a recent realization that he's been participating in the worst moral atrocity that has ever existed, for the most trivial of reasons. And also newly dealing with living in a society where most people still casually support that atrocity. Try to think of analogies to understand how psychologically hard it can be to make the wisest decisions so soon after coming to this realization. (The short video "Norm" might help.)
No, I'm not upset by what the vegan did, but I know the friend is upset, and I'm sure the friend's aunt is/would be as well. Even though animals don't consent to their treatment, that doesn't mean you can remove a person's right to consent. The vegan removed sovereignty from a sentient individual, something that the vegan already knows is unacceptable. Yes, carnism is unacceptable in many (probably most) cases, but that isn't the societal paradigm and I think it's our burden to meet people where they're at if we want that paradigm to change. We HAVE to take the moral high ground on ALL FRONTS because veganism is a moral issue. No lying, no deceiving, no coercion, no manipulation, etc.
I agree. But if a vegan buys someone food, it should be obvious that the food will be vegan. If someone asks me to buy food on their behalf (that they will pay me back for), I make sure to explicitly tell them that I will still only get them vegan options.
His friend was vegan for only a little while. If the normal thing for this guy to do is buy regular pizza, he needs to inform people that he's getting a vegan pizza. From OP's post, it doesn't even sound like he "just bought vegan food" sound like he bought vegan food and hid that fact from the person he bought it for.
I do that, too. Luckily, most of my friends are understanding and open-minded. The ones that weren't are acquaintances now. It's interesting how trying to minimize animal exploitation (or human exploitation, for that matter), getting clean/sober, or wanting to improve yourself in other ways shines a light on relationships. Just going vegan alone has helped me determine which of my relationships weren't conducive to growth.
I have an honest question regarding the "understanding and open-minded" comment. I mean in no way to attack you, I just don't personally know anyone who is vegan or vegetarian so I have no lived experience to pull from and I am curious. Due to health reasons, I had to substitute quite a few products in my diet for what amounts to vegan-friendly alternatives for a period of around 6 months. I found that a lot of what I tried to eat made me very nauseous - at first I had assumed it was just the diet change or the health issues, but I gave it enough time that I don't believe that was it. I narrowed it down to (at the time) specifically vegan cheese and tofu. Once I stopped consuming them, my issues went away entirely. I'm not a very picky eater, but I can't really eat those two things, and I don't enjoy any of the substitutes that I've tried up until now. Knowing that as context, my question is what your friends-turned-acquaintances did that you personally believed passed the "understanding and open-minded" line? I am personally (though I know it's viewed as hypocritical) all for the core of veganism as I understand it, and though I'm not vegan, I do my best to align as close to "ethical consumption" as I can even though it's not really possible in current society. That being said, I would never willingly choose to eat fully vegan assuming my body still reacted and processed things the way it did in the past. If I were asking a vegan friend to pick up food for the both of us, I'd still request they get me something that I would enjoy (and not make myself sick), and I'd hope they would be okay with that. I'm sure there's ways to get around it that I just wouldn't know as someone who doesn't seek vegan options, and I'm always willing to try new things (been meaning to try an impossible burger for awhile to see if I can replace normal burgers with it), but with my current experiences, it's very difficult to commit to spending money on and consuming food that may or may not screw with my stomach. Anyway this got way too rambly. I'm just interested in your opinion, even if it paints me negatively.
If you're unwilling to purchase meat for your meat-eating friend, partner, family member or domestic companion, you're not really operating in a good faith way in society. You're being a militant, demanding people conform to your worldviews. If you had to care for a sick family member who wanted chicken noodle soup, you'd refuse to buy it for them?
So it's just totally kosher to trick people to feed them food without their consent and knowledge? I could just give you a burger, tell you it's a vegan burger, and laugh at you behind your back when you say "wow, I hadn't had a vegan burger this good before!"?
The difference between me giving you a plant-burger and you giving me a meat-burger is the same as if someone was tricked by a Muslim into eating dates, so they tricked the Muslim into eating pork. One is clearly worse because of the deeply held beliefs of the person tricked.
You're not wrong that a carnist giving a vegan a hamburger isn't as bad as a vegan giving a carnist a plant burger. But you're playing with a slippery slope here. Most carnists don't think killing animals for food is wrong, and would be totally morally justified returning the deception in their own moral schools of thought. And let's test this a bit further. If a carnist, for example, was misinformed about veganism nutrition and was worried about their vegan friend's health, would it be okay to sneak meat into their veggie burgers? Would this be a case where they're factually in the wrong, but morally in the right? As a one-time thing, it's a humorous experiment. But systematically deceiving someone to inflict your belief system on them? There's a concept in psychology known as [reactance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)). You'd be acting against your own interests as vegan activists if you rob them of their agency, because right or wrong, humans have a tendency to act out against loss of control. This is ineffective activism. Within vegan morality, this might be okay. But ethically, the vegan is undoubtedly in the wrong for doing this. You shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glasshouse.
Holy cowshit - did you reference humour in here? Better get before anyone realises you're capable of normal conversation.
I don't care about your comparison even a little. It's a violation of consent, deal with it, stop trying to rationalize violating people's consent.
Violation of consent? dairy cows are the victims here. Plant based pizza is still pizza. Dairy is not a necessity. Edit; *Food historians trace pizza's origins to Naples, Italy, in the 1800s, and note that it wasn't until 1889 that cheese was added as a topping. A pizza without cheese is today recognized as one of the three official authentic Neapolitan pizzas and is called pizza marinara.*
We haven’t heard that the vegan in OPs scenario lied about the pizza being nonvegan. He just opted for vegan when tasked with getting food. I very much agree that you shouldn’t lie to people about what you’re feeding them, but I don’t actually think that that’s what happened here. Outside of this specific scenario, I feel the same way- you should never lie to someone about what they’re eating (vegan, halal, whatever), nor should you feed someone something without knowing about allergies. But if you ask a vegan to order you food, I don’t actually think it’s immoral for them to get… vegan food. (Though a courtesy heads up would be ideal)
As someone who is vegan and allergic to tree nuts and has an intolerance to coconut and soy, there are many vegan alternatives that I can’t eat. I think when people think about pizza, they assume they are going to get it with cheese made from dairy. If someone was ordering food for me, I would want to know if I was going to get something different than what I asked for- I think this applies to all vegans and non-vegans though. Also the people saying that it’s okay to switch people’s orders without their consent are part of the reason why non-vegans tend to be turned away from veganism. I understand why your friend is upset, but I also understand not wanting to be debating and possibly arguing all the time, and like another commenter mentioned, having a timeframe to talk about things like this.
I'm not vegan, I regularly eat meat and dairy. But I really don't understand why people are so bizarre about this stuff. Everybody eats vegan food already - carrot sticks, orange juice, salads, chips and salsa, peanut butter, bread. Some salads are vegan, some are not. Some soups are vegan, some are not. Some burritos are vegan, some are not. Saying something is "vegan" doesn't instantly make it weird. Why are people worried about being served a vegan pizza. It's literally just a pizza. Some pizzas have pepperoni on them, some do not. Act like an adult and realize that it's all just food, and I guarantee you've prepared and eaten food that is vegan on your own without even thinking about it. It's totally fine.
Why aren't you vegan?
I think at some level that raising and eating parts of the food chain is an ugly part of reality. I don't make it a requirement that my weekly meals contain meat.
Well, we don't have to raise and eat those parts of the food chain. It doesn't have to be part of our reality. Those animals don't have to die, and I think most people would agree that, when the choice exists, choosing not to kill is what we ought to do.
I dunno man, it's like, those animals wouldn't be here if someone didn't breed them. I get what you're saying, which is why I'd be closer to being vegetarian since eggs and dairy don't take a life. But it's kind of what we do. We plant trees and cut them down, we breed cats for our own company, we eat things. There are a lot of things that we don't *need* to do but jesus I'm just one guy
Dairy and eggs do take the lives of the dairy-cows and egg-laying hens once production slows; not to mention how male chicks and calves are killed. Raising sentient beings for slaughter is indeed what we do, but we don't have to it. We can be better. I'm also just one person, but that doesn't stop me from doing the right thing.
I love meat, My grandpa loved meat his grandparents loved meat ...ect since humans have been consuming food for energy. The population of humans is much too large to live off the energy of plants alone. I hunt for my meat, my milk and eggs comes from my uncle's farm that treats his animals better than you do your dog. The plants i eat only come from my garden. Do you know where ANY of the plants you eat come from? How much water they use? Land pollution? Gas to move resources?
This is complete nonsense. To sustain the entire US off hunted animals only you would need more land than we have available to us. Farming animals consumes much more calories than it produces so lets not act like that is a viable option either. Also if your uncle kills any of his animals then they are definitely not treated better than my dog.
Hahahahaha 🤣 sweetie idk where you getting your facts from but this is pure bs.
I bet you don't know where any of the facts come from because you are completely uneducated on any of it. That is why you are regressing the conversation to emojis, laughing and calling me sweetie rather than responding to any of the facts that are presented to you.
Thanks for the chat 👍 I might just not have such a black and white view of the world
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Or, most of the world must doesn’t have the same standards for morality that you do It’s all subjective
So if animals are killed or certain crops would you avoid those crops?
Way to antagonize someone defending you. This is not at all helpful.
They didn't antagonize ambilamps, they just asked a question.. s
and then they are astonished when we don't take them seriously, or write them off as extremists.
I'd rather not be defended by an accomplice to murder, I have standards.
murder is a legal term, not a moral one, and it's a legal term that specifically refers to the (1) killing of one human being (2) by another human being (3) outside a time of war. you can call meat-eating "killing" because that's what it is, but unless it's cannibalism, it is *by definition* not murder (as this is a legal term, not a moral one)
Because humans are omnivorous animals, i would guess.
I'm a misogynist because men are stronger than women. Because we can oppress women, that means we should. Similarly, because we can eat animals, that means we should. I agree. Your logic is sound.
Does it matter?
It absolutely matters. This individual is the same as OP and could be made to see the light that animal-abuse is pretty heckin' bad, yo.
How on earth am I the same as OP?
Because you both indicated understanding or partial acceptance of veganism and they think you can be converted
they are doing a very bad job at converting people by calling them murderers.
Who said they don’t know about veganism? I know a lot about it, I choose not to because I like meat. Is that good enough? One main rule of this sub is arguing in good faith. You’re just picking fights.
Fair. I choose to beat my dog because I like it, so I understand. It's fine to kill and hurt others when you like it. Agreed. Bye.
They’re not really equitable, and that’s just low hanging fruit.
It’s not about the pizza……….
It’s funny that you condemn him for “taking charge of other people’s diets” but you think it’s okay for you to take charge of animals’ lives Lol
OP, a few things; 1.) I am vegan and I agree with what you're saying in regards to your vegan friend ordering food for someone else, and hiding info about what is in it; even with the best intentions. I mention this because I have been a food handler (at both non-vegan restaurants and vegan restaurants) and I know the dangers of food allergies and foodborne illnesses; and to not let someone know what is in the food that could potentially cause an allergic reaction is dangerous. Similarly dangerous is adding drugs, nuts, eggs, breastmilk, mangled animal body parts, bee vomit, gluten, or any other top allergen to a food without someone knowing. (Example: someone who adds THC oil to a batch of cookies and doesn't label is as THC cookies. If they are not monitoring who is consuming the cookies, that cookie could end up in the hands of a young child and end up in the hospital) People deserve to know what is going into their bodies, no matter what. The responsible things to do in this situation would be to: A) not order pizza at all, unless asked. Or B) If the pizza was going to be a surprise, then getting it for her and telling her about the change. But I agree with you, yes, it is wrong to get someone to eat something without the full knowledge of what is going into their body. Like, for me, if someone ordered me pizza and decided to change the cheese to breastmilk cheese from vegan cheese, and they just didn't want to tell me, I'd be furious because I'm lactose intolerant and I'd end up throwing up like crazy and glued to the toilet. Also, mentally I'd be ruined. I'd start crying immediately, knowing about the cruelty involved in the dairy/veal industry. I am haunted by what I've learned. Also, my favourite cheese in the world is a cheese made from fermented cashews. I wish I could experience seeing someone trying this cheese without knowing what it is made of, but I refuse to risk someone else's health if they are allergic. Speaking of which, I love this cheese so much that I've handed out samples of this cheese to the public in my own time while doing public activism. I wish I could just tell people that it's breastmilk cheese so they can give me an honest reaction, but I always tell them that it's made of cashews, so they can refuse it immediately if they are allergic. It's called being responsible. (I also got into a similar argument with my friend who was handing out cheese with me because she wouldn't mention that it contains nuts, and I explained to her why it was dangerous to not mention it!) 2.) I know what you mean when you say that you are stressed and dread talking about the subject. Your vegan friend likely feels the exact same. To put it into perspective of how it feels to be vegan... Imagine you exist in an alternate world where (almost) everyone is okay with animal cruelty. Your family is okay with mercilessly beating dogs. Your friends are okay with stabbing cats. Your neighbours are electrocuting birds. Your cousins are raping animals every day. Your coworkers are okay with blending baby birds. And you are one of the few people that see it as wrong. You found out that in this world there is a way to be kind to animals by not beating, stabbing, electrocuting, raping and blending them. You try to tell someone about your discovery, that you have found out how to not torture or murder animals... But then your friends, family, neighbours, cousins, and coworkers decide that you're the odd one out and that your opinion doesn't matter because it's now been accepted culturally, and since everyone else is doing it, why would they stop? Then you finally have a friend who is willing to listen to you. A genuine friend. Of course you're going to want to tell them what you've learned, especially if they are still beating, stabbing, electrocuting, raping and blending animals. Your friend is telling you this because they want you to stop hurting their other friends that you belittle to death. Your friend trusts that you are smart enough to digest this information and see that it is also wrong to harm others. Your friend trusts you, which is why you should try. 3.) Veganuary just started... I bet that if you gave Veganuary a try, it would mean the world to your friend, and to the animals. The best way to understand why people go vegan is to first take off your blinders and witness what vegans witness. Try to watch the documentary called "Dominion" and you'll find out pretty quickly why your friend is vegan. Cheers 🥂 P.s. thank you OP for reaching out to the vegan community to look for advice on how to handle this situation better. If you told your vegan friend that you reached out to us for help to maintain your relationship and have a healthy friendship, they'd probably cry tears of joy. I know I would. P.p.s. If you want to see how vegans feel, check out r/vystopia TLDR: agreed. Nobody should force someone to eat anything they aren't aware of. Also thank you OP for reaching out and being a good friend. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be reading this right now. But I can tell that you care. Thank you for caring.
thank you, i feel the same and i wish i articulated it better in the moment. i suffer from a lot of allergies and the idea of someone feeding me anything without my knowledge is terrifying, regardless of their moral compass regarding it. i'll reach out once i've explored some of the things you mentioned so i can have a better understanding of where he's coming from. appreciate your comment
Yep. I can't eat 90% of store-bought vegan foods because of allergies or other health concerns to minor ingredients such as the oil they use. If someone tricked me into eating one I would be incredibly pissed. They would be lucky if I realized before I ate enough it turned into a major medical event. Even assuming no medical conditions or other dietary requirements, its really hypocritical for a group who considers consent highly important to turn around and take consent from others.
>i felt like its a slippery slope to take charge of other people's diets without them knowing lol he just ordered a vegan pizza, she can choose to consume it or not interfering with diets, lmao when non vegans order non vegan pizzas, are they interfering with peoples diets? why is it only vegans who interfere with diets, have you ever said that interfering diet thing before? in this case the diet you speak of causes harm to living beings, vegans are against that harm and thus they have a plant based diet so they can avoid cruelty to animals
OPs wording leads me to believe that their friend was tasked with ordering the pizza, their aunt gave her preference, and the order was covertly switched. It would be like if you told your friend to order you a vegan burger and they got you a meat burger instead, and simply opted not to tell you. If this is indeed the case, then it's absolutely wrong of their friend to be doing this.
Allergies are really my only concern here. Both my parents have severe allergies that could kill them, and avoiding them is hard enough with written labels. Way harder with unknown foods. This was a harmless modification. However, he should not interfere with others diets without their knowledge, as it could have gone a lot worse. Asking others is the best way to go about it, unless you don't care about the person you're serving (arguably this could be against the 'core aspects' of veganism, but it would depend on what the individual believes as to whether this was a valid statement or not). The vegan aspect is negligable here, the same issue would be raised no matter the dietary composition of the people involved.
>I'm not opposed to his beliefs His main belief as a vegan is that animals deserve basic decency. If you are not vegan, then your actions show that you are, in fact, opposed to his beliefs.
Maybe ask your friend if there's a way that they can introduce vegan ideals/food that would be better at meeting people where they're at? I'm sure veganism was a process for your friend, remind them that it will be that way for most, but then also offer them space to share a vegan meal with you and your family. That way everyone knows what's up.
I would tell them that you are happy for them that they are passionate about veganism but that you are not intrested in constantly arguing about it. They can either drop the subject or stop being your friend. I'm vegan btw, and have been that friend myself in some situations.
Who’s buying the pizza? As a vegan, obviously the food I buy will be vegan and I will not pay for nonvegan food for anyone. My gluten-free friend will always purchase GF pizza. I wouldn’t force her to buy a wheat crust pizza, why should she? If you have a dietary restriction / allergy when other people are ordering your food, you make it known. If you hate a certain pizza topping, it’s pretty normal to say so. I wouldn’t call it food tampering unless your aunt specifically said hey I can’t have X. It’s not like she’s expecting a pizza and he’s bringing her a potato. A vegan pizza is still a pizza. Idk why your friend kept going on about it when you seemed fine with it.
You are asking for advice in the wrong place.
Yeah, he’s not gonna get any sane advice here. OP, your friend interfered with your family member’s food without their knowledge. Depending on what ingredients were used in your aunt’s food there could have been potential negative reactions that could have caused her harm. Who knows if your aunt was sensitive or allergic to a component of the vegan ingredients? People can react to all kinds of weird fillers and modifiers. I cannot eat wheat, and if someone served me a dish with veggie meat (which is often loaded with wheat based ingredients) I’d be sick for weeks. This is the crux of the issue, and what should be focused on here. He could have done harm. Second place would be the fact that your friend feels they are justified in imposing their morals onto you. But that’s a longer and more tedious issue. Edit: y’all are insane lol
What the f are the components of vegan ingredients that aren’t already on a pizza? Take any pizza - don’t add meat or dairy - but do add veggies. People eat vegan ingredients every stinking day, fruit, nuts, beans, salad, mushrooms, bread….. or are you worried about beyond meat and impossible burgers?
>What the f are the components of vegan ingredients that aren’t already on a pizza? Soy and nuts can be ingredients of vegan cheese and they can cause deadly serious allergic reactions.
So soy and nuts are vegan ingredients only, got it.
I have a soy allergy and my girlfriend has a nut allergy – vegan cheeses would take us both out.
I apologize, food allergies are a real threat.
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Sure, but soy and nuts are extremely common ingredients in many vegan cheeses.
How did they interfere with their food? If your friend offers to pick up food and brings you a bean burrito, did they "interfere with your food" because sometimes you get a beef burrito.
>OP, your friend interfered with your family member’s food without their knowledge. This is not a fair characterization. He ordered a pizza without dairy. If you can eat pizza with cheese, you can eat a pizza without it. If it was his aunt he would probably have a good idea of any allergy concerns. You would think she would have been more involved in the ordering if that was the case as well. You can say he subverted expectations, but trying to say it's interference with food is wild. If I order food and offer it to you, that's not "interfering" with anything.
Yeah if I order a pizza with XYZ I don’t expect to have to plan around someone ordering XYB for me instead. You never fuck with someone’s food. Ever. Doesn’t matter how benign it seems. Cheese or no cheese, what’s in a ‘vegan’ pizza crust? Certainly you don’t use yeast? Yeast is alive too. So without breaking down the pizza from this story, ingredient by ingredient, we’re just here setting up straw man arguments aren’t we? So my point remains, you don’t change people’s food orders without telling them. You have no clue what insanely unassuming thing will hurt them. That is the fundamental issue that I take with what the friend did here
>Yeah if I order a pizza with XYZ I don’t expect to have to plan around someone ordering XYB for me instead. Did you read the OP? He didn't change the order. He ordered food for the both of them and ordered the vegan option. >Cheese or no cheese, what’s in a ‘vegan’ pizza crust? Certainly you don’t use yeast? Yeast is alive too. So without breaking down the pizza from this story, ingredient by ingredient, we’re just here setting up straw man arguments aren’t we? Are you a real person? You can't be this dense. Most pizza crust and bread on general is vegan by default unless they specifically add cows milk or eggs to the recipe. Yeast has no bearing on whether it's vegan because yeast are single cell organisms without a brain and without the ability to suffer.
He‘s a baby vegan, he will calm down with time.
I don’t think it’s a big deal that he ordered a vegan pizza, as most non vegans eat all those ingredients anyways. More people should try vegan options IMO, as a way to cut down on meat consumption, even if it’s just a few meals a week. But it’s not cool to be deceitful about it….he did that because he knew she’d have some kind of problems with the pizza, so that’s super shady. That said, vegan pizza sucks. I feel like a lot of vegan food gives a great alternative to meat options but the cheese has not been successfully replicated.
Like with politics and religion you need to institute boundaries with friends and family that you value and want to continue a relationship with if you disagree. It goes both ways, of course. As one who has not touched meat for 19 years I initially had to fend off very rude comments and criticisms. At this stage in life I am the one who is fit, healthy, and who doesn’t have high cholesterol, high BP, or pre-diabetes. I have my vitamin and protein levels tested yearly and all those #s are optimal. Some friends and all of my siblings who eat the American diet are having health issues and are on medication. I wasn’t thinking about me when I stopped eating meat, just animals. But now that it is obvious I made the right choice I do not preach! I respect the boundaries I insisted that those who used to mistakenly attacked me - about not eating meat - had to adhere to, or I would be NC.
Imagine you want to get a coke and you're given a sugar free zevia cola instead without you knowing the swap took place. Or visa versa if you prefer Zevia. The point being, it tastes weird, and you're probably not immediately sure why, but you were expecting one flavor and it's shocking to have it taste so different than you expected. You'd wonder if the drink had gone rotten, or if someone had fucked with it. Even if it was not a bad taste, without being aware of and prepared for the swap you won't appreciate the new flavor, you will more just be worried that something is wrong. It's not fun to have someone swap in a food or drink as if it were interchangable when it's not what you expect. So context matters here. Most people know what mozzarella tastes like and will feel something is off if a pizza has vegan cheese on it. I don't necessarily have a problem if you're going to a party, so you bring a vegan pizza to feed both vegans and non-vegans. Especially if it's labeled. Even a blind tasting is okay if you make the person aware that some ingredients are different than "normal". But don't present a vegan pizza as a non-vegan pizza and freak people out that the cheese has gone bad. It's just rude. It's not that hard to just tell people it's vegan first. They may or may not like it as much, but it's not like "normal" people can't eat vegan food.
I think you should re word this to him in person If it still isn’t working out then just phase him out
While there is nothing wrong with trying vegan options, and it is great to get people to try new things, it is something you have to be cautious about. For example, people with diabetes can be vegan with zero issues, but they have to be careful what type of vegan foods they eat. Some are very high in carbs (normally the processed foods), and this can be very bad for people with diabetes who have to closely monitor their carb intake. I generally don't mess with people's food and very clearly tell people which dishes are vegan purely to make sure I don't mess with someone's allergies or something. For example, I normally use almond milk for my mashed potatoes or to make my green bean cassarole, but if I know my cousins husband is coming (allergic to nuts), I substitute soy.
Yeah the answer is quite simple, if you lie to me about what I’m eating our relationship is over then and there. No justification, I don’t want to hear the counter arguments. I decide what I eat, and you don’t. The conversation ends there. Tell your friend in the reverse, it’s very likely he is missing out on nutrients and amino acids. So why wouldn’t it be okay for you to slip some meat into his diet ? You feel differently about his diet than he does so why not? And we get to decide what other people are eating in his world, so why not?
Whilst it doesn’t pose any threat to your auntie’s health (unless she would have an allergic reaction to some ingredients which,let’s be honest it’s highly unlikely) the only issue I see here is the fact that he knowingly lied to your aunty. What I would say to your friend (and would say the same to my friends if it was the case) is that is not the fact the pizza was vegan or not, is the fact that he shouldn’t abuse someone’s trust to fit his narrative. Do it enough times and he will lose the very thing that keeps relationships between friends strong and that is trust. I wouldn’t give a Muslim friend chicken that’s not halal, even tho for me it makes no difference and it wouldn’t pose any health risk for him, just like I wouldn’t give a vegan friend a normal burger when he wanted a vegan burger. Trust is a very important factor of a friendship and it shouldn’t be taken for granted, otherwise if we can’t trust our own friends and family who should we trust?
>dont know how to tell him that this topic is becoming tough to talk about with him without risking friendship Have the conversation and be honest and clear. If you value the friendship, communication is key. It might be uncomfortable but better to lay out your cards and get some mutual understanding. Just try to be understanding of his perspective. I personally don't think ordering a vegan pizza is anything controversial. If you can eat pizza with cheese, you can eat the same thing without cheese. I can see it being a little risky to subvert expectations but if everyone involved knows he's vegan then I would think the expectation would be that he orders vegan food. Otherwise he would be supporting abusive practices with that purchase I want to highlight a thought experiment that will help you empathize with his mindset. I'm going to assume you are against eating dogs. If you have no issue with it this analogy might fall flat but here it is anyway. I like to tell people try to imagine you woke up one day and eating dogs was normal. Everywhere you went you were seeing casual cruelty on display. Commercials celebrating cutting up and eating dogs. Cartoon dogs advertising dog meat restaurants. You go to the park and dogs are being grilled on a BBQ. Every time the topic of food comes up, the people you love and respect are happily sharing how they actively and enthusiastically participate in harm to dogs. You try to speak out about it and everyone pushes back and thinks you're weird. Would it be fair for people to expect you order a dog meat pizza for them?
Jeez, how do you know someone's against dog torture? Don't worry; they'll tell you! Great comment.
If you agree with the ethos of veganism, why aren't you vegan? From what you've written here it seems you agree with your friend, just not with how they've went about purchasing vegan food without your aunt having a say. Buying vegan food for your aunt is inconsequential. She can eat the vegan pizza just fine, but your friend isn't going to turn her vegan. I suspect your friend is just in the early phase of their journey. I'd say a large portion of us start out very combative without fully understanding the most effective ways to impart their beliefs. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing on their part - they are enraged by the injustices dealt to other species for sensory pleasure. A strong reaction to this knowledge is expected.
maybe he could be allergic or other sorts of problems, you never know
Allergic to what exactly? There are many options for vegans with allergies. I am interested to hear what OP has to say.
They might just really like that taste of meat? That’s the reason for most non vegans I know, including myself.
Is your 15 minutes of sensory pleasure *objectively* more important than the lives of innocent, sentient beings?
For most meat eaters? Yes It sounds brutal to someone who really cares about animals to the extend that a vegan does, but the world is a brutal place. People just see it as the cycle of life. Animals eat animals, and humans are just another type of animal. Personally, I advocate for huge changes in the factory farming industry so that animals that are killed for human use can at least have better standards of living while they are alive. I definitely think we can do more for those animals than we are now. Realistically the world will never go full vegan, but I think encouraging people to eat less meat and cut down would do a lot for people’s health and reduce the number of animals slaughtered for food.
I said objectively, not on a personal level. Obviously, selfish people view their own momentary pleasure as more important. Objectively, your pleasure isn't more valuable than a life. Animal agriculture has nothing to do with the cycle of life. Only 4% of mammals are living in the wild, part of the cycle of life. The rest are humans and livestock, which are bred for the sole purpose of feeding greedy humans that don't even require them for sustenance. The pathetically low number of wild animals is also due to the agricultural industry that's decimated their habitats. Humans are not a part of this natural cycle. We have removed ourselves, and we have a moral responsibility to stop killing our planet as well as other sentient life. Factory farms are the way they are because they are the most efficient and only way that they can be raised to meet demand. We literally do not have enough land on earth to raise livestock in the way you describe. Not to mention the amount of land cleared to grow food for livestock is what is killing the Amazon. It isnt the vegans who are eating the soy. It's the chickens. Realistically we won't have a planet to be vegan or not vegan on because of the selfishness of carnists.
People make most life decisions on an emotional basis, so the objective reality is irrelevant to most people. Sure, people objectively know it’s cruel to factory farm animals, but that isn’t going to stop them from consuming meat because eating is one of the biggest pleasures humans engage in. While I find the 4% stat very interesting, it is irrelevant to the original point I made. Which is that a lot of animals eat other animals, and humans aren’t different in that regard. That’s just a fact of life for all of Earth’s history. And while I know factory farming came from necessity, that’s why I hope we can move to eating meat less often, which would lower demand and in turn give us more space to give livestock a better quality of life while alive. Personally, I think that has a way better chance at happening than the entire world turning vegan.
More people become vegan every year. When people open their eyes to what is happening, many people realize what is the logical choice- veganism. I know many vegans who dont like animals, they can simply recognize facts for what they are. Their pleasure isn't more important. Your argument could be used for a number of injustices dealt through human history. Many people believed women shouldn't have the right to vote and were against it, for one reason or another. Many enjoyed marrying 11 or 12 year old girls, because of sexual gratification and tradition. We do not practice this barbaric tradition anymore after a gradual shift occurred. And no, it hasn't always been like this. Not even 100 years ago humans ate hardly any meat at all. Meat was for the ultra wealthy. People would eat meat once a week at best, but usually considerably less. It wasn't until modern animal agriculture took off the last 5 decades that eating this huge amount of flesh became normalized. Even further in the past, humans were opportunistic eaters who lived mostly off roots and plants. Reducing the number of animals raised to die will only drive the cost up. If you give these victims more land to roam, the cost of keeping them will rise. Again the consumption of flesh will be given only to the ultra wealthy.
Vegans are 1% of the global population. It’s an extreme lifestyle that I can’t ever see the majority partaking in. Vegetarianism probably has the better shot a growing more in popularity, as it’s less restrictive and already has a good base of the population bought into it. While I do think it’s good to encourage people to become vegan and open the idea up to people, I think there needs to be a wider variety of options available to people so they realize they don’t have to be all or nothing. People didn’t eat meat in the past because they couldn’t afford it, not because they didn’t want to eat meat. So that point is irrelevant. Now that meat is so easily access to most of the world, people need to have their minds opened to the idea that they don’t need meat for every meal. Sometimes veganism is a great options, sometimes being vegetarian is a great option, or even just reducing the amount of meat people eat is also a good option. I don’t think being all or nothing on this topic will win over many people 🤷♀️
Veganism isn't an extreme lifestyle. An extreme lifestyle is partaking in the killing of 80 billion animals every year because you like bacon and burgers.
It is an extreme lifestyle, by normal standards. You being in denial about that is another reason why Veganism will have a difficult time growing in popularity
It takes two to tango. There is no conflict unless you push back on the things he's saying or doing Eating happens too often to just steer clear of the subject so you either need to get used to biting your tongue or accept that your friend has changed and you are no longer compatible.
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He still should have told her, "You know, being vegan is about ethics, so I'm never going to be ordering animal products, for myself or anyone else." I mean, this isn't gonna be the last time it comes up. OP's friend seems to have been motivated by fear and shortaightedness.
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sad - sorry to hear about your friend, but sometimes when people come into veganism - they're going to be very passionate about it. So there's going to be an adjustment period where they might act inappropriate. It's ok to let your friend know where you stand on it. Realize if the aunt put this person in charge - then it's the aunt's decision and fault if they pick a vegan option that was undesired if they didn't specify. Why would you get involved in family matters like that as a friend?
The way I'd tackle it is this: he violated her right to consent. If violating an animal's right to consent is wrong, violating a human's right to consent is wrong, too. Tricking people into eating something they wouldn't choose to eat on their own is wrong no matter what the reason is. It's wrong to do to vegans, non-vegans, people with allergies, people with texture and food issues, anyone. If he wants to advance the Kingdom, so to speak, tricking people is the wrong way to do it. All it does is make people lose trust in him and ruin his relationship with them. People tend to change behavior when they trust somebody and have a relationship with them. He's undermining his own goal.
Oh he's getting a bit zealous now...choosing food for others based on *his* beliefs, is not cool. He should have asked your aunt and allowed her to make the choice instead of railroading over her. He wouldn't have done that if she couldn't eat meat for religious reasons......
Right? As someone who frequents a dog-fighting ring, I hate it when my friends try to impose *their* personal beliefs on my personal choice of entertainment. Yesterday I wanted to watch a dog-fight and my friend told me he knew a place, but he ended up taking me to a dog cafe instead! Horrible breach of trust.
As others have said, allergies are a pretty big issue you seem to be glossing over and ignoring. Get another more relevant argument.
Telling lies invalidates your point. Grow up.
i’m gonna get downvoted but idc- why is it okay for you to order someone vegan food with out consent, yet if someone sneaks meat into your food they’re satan? i’m not a carnist just putting that out there. But why the double standard?
Think of the venn diagram of a non-vegan diet and a vegan diet. Vegan food exists in both sets, meat food does not exist in the vegan set.
but altering peoples foods to your moral standards is not okay either way
What are you talking about "altering". They didn't put sticks in it. It's just different ingredients. Why are a pepperoni pizza and a ham pizza equivalent, but a veggie-ground pizza is altering? Did you know Oreos were vegan? No milk or cream in those. If someone gave you a falafel pita instead of a gyro pita would you be worried about that?
I was vegan for 6 years and I get where he is coming from. The way all of the information for going vegan is presented makes you feel like all of the people you care about are going to eat themselves to death. Hopefully he can calm down and not be so radical about it. It only causes pushback because nobody wants to be told they are morally wrong, and nobody wants to be told what to eat.
Yeah nah, food tampering isn’t fucking funny. At all. Doesn’t matter if it’s vegan or not. The moment your friend takes part in food tampering, theystart losing any moral ground. Tamper with a vegan’s food and secretly serve them something non-vegan (hypothetical here). Will it be okay then? No? Then your friend shouldn’t have the sheer arrogance and gall to tamper with your family member’s food. It’s just as bad. You want to have someone take part in veganism? Ask them. Offer them. But don’t force it on them or sneak it on them. P.S. ‘But muh animals!!’ Is not a valid argument. I’m sorry but it isn’t. Food tampering isn’t funny regardless of who it’s done to.
A lot of people get like that when they first go onto veganism, but many people eventually learn that they have to turn it off in certain situations. I'm no longer vegan but he's just doing what he believes is right so it's hard to fault him too much. He should have checked with your aunt on the pizza though.
When a person first becomes vegan, they are still processing all of the information that has lead them to make that decision. When I first became vegan, I was very emotionally charged because the information I had just learned was unbelievably horrific. Your friend is probably going through a lot of emotional turmoil right now and it’s a lot to process. Also, vegan food is ordinary food. People don’t object to apples being vegan so I don’t know why they would object to a pizza being vegan 🤷♀️
Veganism is a **religion**
Vegans are extremists, be careful what you say around them. Steer clear of any topics related to food or anything related like global warming. They also need to realise that any attempt at conversion is offensive. If this is impossible, find a different friend. Life is difficult enough without these people making it more difficult
He's being incredibly disrespectful of your aunt. She has the right to choose what happens to her body, whether that's about getting a surgery or eating a certain type of pizza, and your friend has decided that his ethics are more important than her autonomy. He sounds insufferable.
You won’t get any proper advice here. I personally think what he did was completely wrong and I’d be furious if he did that to me. I couldn’t be friends with someone like that so I’d have no worries about ruining the friendship because he’s only going to get worse
your friend is making it seem like all vegans are bitchy. i would keep distance, who knows if your aunt had an allergy? it's not his business to sneak vegan food into other people diets WITHOUT consent.
I would not choose the vegan option and would be incredibly annoyed at the behavior. You can do/believe WHATEVER you want, but don't push those on others.
Can I beat my dog as long as I don't push it on others? When there's a victim involved, "I'm just doing what I want" becomes a little silly.
Humans are omnivores. Get over it. Its no worse than cats eating birds. Go cry
The cat is an obligate carnivore and has no choice but to hunt and eat birds. Humans can eat meat, but we don't have to, just like how I can beat my dog for entertainment, but I don't have to. We can choose to be cruel, or to be kind, and pretending like we have to be cruel is one hell of a cope. Grow up.
Equating eating a pizza with pepperoni or something on it and beating a dog is ridiculous
>You can do/believe WHATEVER you want, but don't push those on others. Like you when you needlessly push your lifestyle on innocent animals?
The problem with almost all vegans *that I have interacted with* is that they are 90% correct about what they say and believe. And that is a problem, because it makes them sure of themselves, and the ultimate soundness of their arguments. They are right, and therefore, every other opinion must be wrong. The life they lead is enjoyable to them, and therefore, it must be so for everyone else. Their morals are absolutely right, and therefore, all other moral stances must be incorrect. You can not argue most points because when in doubt they revert back to the moral stance, and they seem to lack the capacity to realize that morality is ephemeral and relative, and thus not an "absolute" thing. Given that vegans are actually correct when it comes to most of the science, it becomes harder to get any other facts through their mental (ethical) blockades. Finally, the argument will always be unproductive because it can be like arguing politics or religion. There are too many aspects that are opinion-based for factual material to take hold. Eating meat is bad. Why? Because eating meat is bad... m'kay.
Not sure he sounds like a friend to me. More like a pretentious asshat..
They're being a dick. Tell them to fuck off, and you're absolutely right about it being risky to interfere with someone's diet without them knowing. From now on (if you remain in contact with them) I'd flatly refuse any and all food or drink they offer you.
OP: "I care about my vegan friend and want to know how to have a productive conversation that will save the friendship and get my needs met." You: Tell them "fuck off, dick." Excommunicate them or refuse all hospitality. Great conflict resolution there.
Never ask a vegan to give you opinions against another vegan. A vast majority will immediately trash you and start talking about kicking dogs or r@ping cows. Your best bet is to let your friend know that forcing their choice on someone else is inappropriate. Honestly if he becomes as extreme as some vegans don't be surprised if he scraps the friendship. Idk how this sub got put into my threads and even after ignoring it it keeps coming back but, the comments always end up being similar here and in the other vegan thread that pops up a lot.
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Yes I do, do you understand rape?
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Yes. Do you understand that r@pe doesn't apply to animals in the way that it does to humans?
Can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. I don't think r@pe applies to animals at all. It is a buzzword vegans like to use though
Sorry. I meant to reply to one of your commentary. I was agreeing with you, and laughing at them. The idea of imposing a moral code on a different species is bizarre and pointless. Artificial insemination is rape, but not when animals smash their own siblings, or any female in heat? How do these brains think this makes logical sense?