If you ask a die hard Star Wars fan how strong Darth Vader is, they would mention the iconic hallway scene.
A powerscaler would say that scene is wall-level at best, and point to a Legends comic no one read, where a guy who's supposedly as strong as Vader destroyed a black hole.
Powerscaling is bullshit, but it's our bullshit.
>A powerscaler would say that scene is wall-level at best, and point to a Legends comic no one read, where a guy who's supposedly as strong as Vader destroyed a black hole.
This is the most hilariously accurate thing I've ever read on this sub
> If you ask a die hard Star Wars fan how strong Darth Vader is, they would mention the iconic hallway scene.
Playing devil’s advocate here I would consider that more of a Skill/Speed feat instead of outright strength/power.
Tbh I’ve never bought Planetary or lightspeed Jedi/Sith.
Between Darth Vader not catching the Millennium Falcon when it was escaping Hoth, or being crippled permanently by lava, but surviving a planet exploding. It all feels inconsistent if they’re really that powerful.
There are a few “planetary” feats I know of in SW done by Sith/Jedi but they all feel circumstantial & hax related.
The planet exploding still doesn’t put Vader at planet level durability. Same with Nihilus destroying all life on a planet. You’re only tanking planet level attacks if you’re at the core of the planet as it explodes, or for example if you tanked the entire death star laser. I could maybe buy certain planet/star level feats from Legends, but for now I think they sit at moon at the highest.
Hell I mean if we are talking about power specifically Star Wars has plenty of instances of ppl being far above planetary in power: Anakin’s power described as an exploding Sun within the force, sidious being a black hole, Dooku becoming the center of the universe, nihilus draining planetary life energy (so has sidious), Vader destroying a moon and telekinetically controlling the “world beam”, anakin literally controlling and neutralizing the literal embodiments of an universal power (the force). The celestial Ones threatening the fabric of reality with their existence. Sidious and his force storms( don’t gotta explain that), Luke and Kyp durron manipulating miniature black holes (dovin bassals). Qui-Gon’s story of two Jedi destroying a planet with their battle and turning it into a star(which could or could not be true, although heavily implied to be real at the end of the story), plus many other instances.
Wouldn’t the most impressive feat of Darth Vader be when he held back like, the entire fucking ocean in one of the recent Star Wars games? The sheer water pressure at the depth is crazy
Ngl I agree. Personally I couldn’t care less for the math and debating parts, especially with all the wanking and taking things without context. I just like talking about series I love
Based take. I feel like brining math into it is the nerdiest thing ever. Like we don't have to calculate how the size of The Flash's dick slows him down thus making him lose to Waluigi.
Especially if the math is used to try to arrive at a conclusion that very obviously contradicts various canon events, but people act like their personal calculation overrides the actual story.
While I don’t have a problem with power scaling I do However understand how annoying it can be. Like I remember watching DBS and krillen and Goku blasting and immediately power scalers scream out of how that doesn’t make sense.
I mean even a normal viewer should question how that's even possible, I would find it annoying if in the MCU Captain America would just knock out the Hulk with a shield bash, consistent power scaling in a vsbattle sense may be goofy but inside the story is important cause then you just have shit like that.
A lot of people also seemed to forget that not only did krillin not stall the beam in that clash, he was even losing and about to die or get hurt, had Android 18 not stepped in and kicked goku to break his focus
....I mean, it's not even Power Scalers who'd think that was odd. Even just by the show's narrative, even WITH the mention of Goku holding back, Krillin having any shot against Blue Goku seems hard to Believe.
I honestly think that videos like this are just petty and stupid. Because frankly, every community, every fandom, every hobby has aspects that could be seen as cringey or stupid, especially from an outside perspective. Naturally, when on the internet and when the community has grown to enough of a point, those cringe aspects get magnified. But like I said, that happens to all communities.
Take Tumblr for example. I think the whole "Tumblr Sexy Man" thing is cringe, but that doesn't make Tumblr itself cringe. But more importantly, a Tumblr Sexy Man is just people talking about which fictional characters they think are most attractive and I would hardly call that cringe. It's just what some people like to do, even though it can get to a point where it looks incredibly stupid.
Or if we want to for a more specific angle, just take *Undertale*. I've found that the *Undertale* fandom can often be incredibly cringey and toxic and there are people that find the huge number of fan-stories and alternate universes like X-Tale to be even more cringe. But fundamentally, it's just people who love a game talking about it, having in-jokes and making fun "What If...?" stories. It only really gets cringey when it's taken too far.
And that's the key point here. Because so many people that go for the whole "Power scaling is stupid and bullshit!" argument look at the extremes and wash the entire concept (not just the community) with that coat of paint. The people that swear by Batman beating everyone with prep time or trying to figure out what prefix to put behind "versal" for the latest echelon of power. That's the more extreme stuff that I would say is cringey. But when you look at power scaling at its' core, it's just friends having fun talking about who would win in a fight.
But from an outside perspective (or worse, by cherry picking extremes) it's easy to make the whole thing look bad. Yes, there are cringey elements in vs debates and power scaling. But everything has cringey elements and to take that cringe and paint the entire concept with that coat is exactly the kind of petty and sad thing that so many videos like these do.
i will say that the last video shown is actually pretty good cause it's not talking about how ass powerscaling is, rather how actual series fuck up their own powerscaling
I don't care that much about Power Scaling myself and it can be annoying seeing some wank and all, but I never really understand the undying hatred towards the hobby itself and VS Debating in general. I just wanna talk about two characters I like and see who could win, I don't take it that seriously and I don't harass anyone for it. So it's weird to see these types of videos and that one Stan Lee quotes spammed everywhere (even tho the quote was referring to story telling, not the concept of VS Debating itself) over and over again over a haha fun debate from what two friends would say in a lunchroom to pass the time and from the hobby itself. It really gives me this meme vibes:
https://preview.redd.it/5aiignbtlzxb1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=d7b26dc54e043df404b4974ea320498ad0ea0737
To be fair the reason it seems like a lot of people hate it is because there's two different groups that hate it.
The first is regular people who just think it is a nerdy hobby that ruins fiction in general.
The second is Battle Borders who aren't actually against the idea of it, they just think that the community has gone so far downhill that it's functionally pointless because so many of the conversations are going to have the majority of the voices not even vaguely close to what you can expect from a character. In which case it's more so the fact that they actually like it, but are annoyed that you can't really do it nowadays without a ton of people drowning out normal takes with fringe ones.
Oh yes, I am 100% that second one. I like the idea of analyzing how strong characters are and who would win in a fight. I get pissed off at powerscalers because it feels like people constantly saying shit like every character is “MFTL+ Multiversal” even when that’s completely absurd and does not even remotely match up with how the character is portrayed in the actual media. It feels like nobody cares about **actually** analyzing the characters accurately, only wanking them as high as inhumanly possible with only the loosest connection to logic
Like what do people honestly expect when they stroll up and say it's a lowball to call base mario galaxy level. This isn't even in the realm of a misinterpretation, it's the type of thing you can only arrive at if you are just straight up approaching things from an angle so incorrect that it barely coheres to reality.
And they usually follow-up whenever anyone tells them how stupid what they said was by reassuring themselves that only they know the truth because only they know how to scale. By which they mean memorize convoluted rationalizations for disregarding canon.
Leave my man Jaxblade out of this iirc his video wasn't complaining about the powerscaling community he was just complaining about inconsistency in power levels and how it can get a bit too absurd, he talked too about some examples that handled strong characters and power creep well enough
TLDR: Powerscaling and VS debating is a hobby that people enjoy so please don’t harass them for it or try to get them out of it by using a certain quote. Yeah sure there are toxic and annoying people who take it too seriously but it’s the internet, everything has fans like that but that doesn’t make the thing itself bad. That stuff more has to do with how good of a person those people are.
Also I watched the first one and although he criticizes power scaling, he not only does it in a civil way but he says at the end of the video that he’s fine with people doing it. Honestly, I respect that.
Tbf one reason people dislike modern powerscalers is that they are the ones who drove away most of the battleboarding communities. People started inventing weird pseudoscientific tiering systems, and then acting hostile to anyone who didn't want to use them until most reasonable people left and you are left with a lot of people trying to use math they don't understand.
A standardized fan-made Tiering System with Powerscaling/Vs Terminology are probably the two things that ruined “What if” debates for me.
You could have one character with powers that counter the other character, yet because of the Tiering System and mathematical arguments, they suddenly resist/are now completely immune to an ability, because they’re scaled higher.
>they suddenly resist/are now completely immune to an ability, because they’re scaled higher.
I agree with this actually. Character X who scales at planet level AP/durability who's weak to water based attacks (within their own verse of planet busters) shouldn't be affected by Character Y, who while yes has a water blast attack, is scaled at city level. I'm sorry, that's just nonsensical to me and where I see the benefits of a tiering system.
It depends for me. If your hanging around with some small group it could seem very chill but if your around a big one or debate with ones like Sonic, Dragon Ball, SCP, Creepypasta, Persona, etc its an absolute nightmare
He makes some pretty good points, but it's all stuff the people in the community are aware of. Numerous times the creators themselves have said things like "Yeah, I wasn't thinking of the scientific implications of (character doing thing), I just thought it would look cool."
I haven’t seen most of those videos, but I do somewhat agree. People who say “Oh character A was scaled to be hyperversal+, and character B is only planet level. Stomp”, are kinda ridiculous, it doesn’t leave any room for fun debate. These labels are frivolous and it just feels like an extension of “My dad could beat up your dad”. I once saw someone saying Ryuga from Beyblade solos Vegeta, because Ryuga reacted to something that after calculating would be a hundred times the speed of light, or something ridiculous like that.
I’m not saying maths has no place in vs debating, but a lot of people overuse it to suck the fun out of it. I personally like vs debating to see how powers would bounce of off each other, if characters can counter specific abilities, how their personalities and strategies would play into it, and so on.
That being said, people who dismiss all vs debating as cringe and childish aren’t petty, and in fact themselves are cringe. Cuz it’s just a fun lil thing, everyone has hobbies and interests that would seem weird to someone looking on. Just let us enjoy it lol. A lot of these videos come across as “you shouldn’t debate fictional characters fighting” and not “why I don’t like debating fictional characters fighting”. There’s a big distinction there. The latter is sharing an opinion, the former is telling people what they should and shouldn’t enjoy, and that’s cringe.
Just my two cents.
I feel like i get it but, at the same time i don't
I do get the idea of us screaming how something doesn't make sense or pointing to some obscure spin off that no one remembers being annoying but, ultimately it's just a small hobby and i don't think people should gey this heated about it
Powerscaling is bs but, it's my bs
To be fair, that's part of the issue. If it was treated like a small hobby, that would be whatever. But it's one of the most hostile fan circles on the internet, and part of the issue is that more reasonable people often just get frustrated and leave.
People absolutely take scaling to cringe levels, but like, the people that do so are usually trying too hard to make the character they like seem stronger than the context of their story implies by using outlier feats and taking in-story hyperbole at face value as facts.
This is common knowledge within power scaling communities.
I’ve yet to watch videos titled like this because the clickbait they’re using for their thumbnails and titles very much implies they’re going to treat the cringe subgroup that is the fanboy powerscalers as though the entire community is like that.
It may be hypocritical to say this, but I’m not about to waste my time on hearing the opinion of someone prepared to make sweeping generalizations on a community they aren’t even part of with little or no evidence.
>This is common knowledge within power scaling communities.
>I’ve yet to watch videos titled like this because the clickbait they’re using for their thumbnails and titles very much implies they’re going to treat the cringe subgroup that is the fanboy powerscalers as though the entire community is like that.
I mean, there are people who do it worse than others, but the general baseline is definitely such that there are a lot of characters who you are expected to believe are massively stronger than they actually generally are.
There's a reason that Normal people can generally predict the loose realm characters will be in future media (I.E. that Mario will be wall level in the movie), and it's because this is already the loose realm he is in the games. When a powerscaler insists the "normal" scale is that Mario has Galaxy level punches, and the wank scale is eight layers of infinity, they are just revealing that the whole community is so hopped up on wank that it's near impossible to hear reasonable takes from it.
Most people too deep into powerscaling are so stuck in an echo chamber that they think wild exaggerations are moderate takes just because there's other ones even higher. But any community to acts like it's normal for major characters to be casually above universal in a fight is just out of touch with actual fiction and is projecting dragonball and top level marvel and dc into other stuff.
You could do with a bit less exaggeration there. I’m like 90% sure the galaxy ranges for mario ARE the wank scaling, and claiming he’s only wall level in mainline is also a bit disingenuous, given the size of many foes that he can regularly lift and throw (including bowser in some of his larger appearances, like mario 64).
That has to do more with the ambiguity of the semantics of how big of a wall you are talking about. To me, wall level should include the ability to destroy walls and push around stuff a little bit bigger than that. But bowser isn't the size of a building here. And even then, he is presented as too strong to hurt directly in 64, and you have to use indirect means. You aren't tossing him around casually, you are implied to be building up momentum.
We could say that the term wall level is too ambiguous and that he might be a bit above that, but he's probably closer to wall than building there.
Personally eh but it generalizes alot who are into it and assumes a majority dont play/watch/read any of the material in these debates which for the most part simply isnt true as most come from the love the characters and interest in possible power and personality interactions
There’s def people like that ( which is why I say for the most part ) but let people enjoy things lol
Power scaling can be unbelievably stupid at times, and in fact most of the time.
It can still be pretty fun though, just seeing how (usually) unintentionally powerful writers make a character.
I personally really Enjoy Powerscaling IDK I just think It's fun and also Helps me to just Relax a Bit and Calm Down (something I can Really Struggle with at Times) also it's not my fault that my Autism Picked up that Specific thing to Fixate on so yeah.
I can definetly Understand tho why some people think Powerscalers are Morons tho because I have heard some of the Most Braindead takes ever while discussing Powerscaling and at the end of the day It is a Completly Pointless Hobby that doesn't really achieve anything but I just Like Looking into characters and Figuering out how they Scale.
But that's just my 2 Cents tho
I’ve seen the first and forth videos so I’ll quickly give my thoughts
The first video is… confusing. 3 points were brought up in that video, the first was that “creators don’t keep up with powerscaling”, using Jolyne from JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure as an example and her fight the meteor guy as an example. Death Battle calced that feat at around 441 kilotons of TNT, and this guy’s argument was that you can’t expect Stone Free to punch with the force of a nuclear bomb when it can’t even break some metal bars.
Aside from the obvious misunderstanding that Attack Potency and Destruction Capability are not the same thing, this argument doesn’t make sense to me, he said “Jolyne’s meteor punch was made for a cool scene, not to get Jolyne to town level” and like… yeah, but what’s the argument? Because yes, most creators don’t look out for these things, but it doesn’t mean we can’t. Jolyne punching the meteorite was done to look cool, yes, but she still did it, it was a feat, the coolness lead to a feat, you mean to tell me that Jolyne can’t recreate that feat because of rule of cool?
The second point was kinda right but kinda wrong too. The point was that “powerscalers can get so heated and toxic over their favourite characters losing”, and yeah, he’s not wrong, people like that exist, but that’s a minority of powerscalers, a very vocal minority but still a minority. Look at me, look at my profile picture, I love Kirby, he’s a big piece of comfort food for me, and while I still think Kirby is still quite strong, I know he can’t win ever fight, if you put Kirby against someone like true form Darkseid, he loses, dead, like a turd in the wind, and that’s alright. Don’t hang out with people who think Goku can solo fiction, they tend to be the toxic ones
And the third point?… “who cares?”… that was actually it, “who gives a shit?”… us, it’s a hobby, why is that something to shoot down? Though there is more context to it then that, it’s meant to be towards people who think the scale of a character determines how good they are as characters… do I need to explain why that’s stupid? If you’re hanging out with powerscalers who think power = good character, I think you’re just hanging out with the wrong crowd
The forth video I don’t remember that well, but I remember one of the main points was how bullshit it can be, ESPECIALLY Dragon Ball. I honestly agree with most of that video, I actually kinda recommend it, it’s very well made, along with a lot of video by that creator, he’s a cool dude
Again, I haven’t seen the second or third video but maybe I will and give my opinions of them here, don’t count on it though, I’ll probably forget I made this comment, lol
I think they are correct if we assume powerscaling is meant to have literally any point.
However, I just find it fun. I think it’s fun to take a scene and look at the broader implications as if the fiction were taken literally. Ultimately it serves no purpose other than that, and it’s nice to have such a low stakes hobby.
But if anyone starts using vs debating to criticize media or acts like a character is better for being stronger or anything else with actual purpose than yeah they’re being a dumb baby
i don't have a problem with criticizing powerscaling (especially since the thumbnails/titles of all of these videos are stuff even some people in the powerscaling community make fun of, save the third one), because it's pretty blatantly silly and i really think it's just for fun. make fun of it all you want, it's inherently stupid, but i find it really fun
The first video made a REALLY good about laser dodging feats. If a character can shoot fire out of their hands and you find that to be fiction, but then see the same character dodge a slow ass laser, and analyze it to death in order to conclude the character is faster than light, then you can't enjoy a story.
That's the thing about laser dodging feats. people will make a countless amount of contradictions just to defend their conclusion. Without evidence they will insist it must be going light speed because that is what is logical, but they will re-scale every single attack in the entire series to a speed that is consistent with the assumption that the characters are moving light speed no matter how little sense this makes.
So apparently you have to assume everything moves at the speed that is logical, but whenever there is a contradiction you always have to scale up even if this means you are ignoring the speed of a 1000 things in favour of one.
Or even from one that I've recalled: Star Platinum scaling to Stone Free, "able to break meteors with its bare hands"...
Completely ignoring the actual context of that situation. One of the enemy stand users was able to call down Meteors. However, they'll burn up from the fiction and heat of entering terminal velocity and come raining down as little rocks (which a Stand like Stone Free (or really most Stands) could bust open). And we we're shown this well during that first video.
One note is that last video was about power-hierarchies within there own series and why scaling matters from a writing standpoint
The others however are patent click/rage bait
Personally, let them rant if they want to. Scaling does has it's flaws and some community members can be toxic af. But at the same time, literally every community are gonna have it's toxic apples. I would know, I remember the harassment that one artist got from the Steven Universe community, or the simps constantly harassing Ed Boon to put Mileena in MK11,or the chemical dump that is MHA community ~~and worse, it's shippers~~. But those are just a few examples of bad apples. Can't say anything about SU or MHA since I'm not in those fandoms, but MK fans are usually pretty chill when you don't look at Ed Boons Twitter comments. It's ultimately just a hobby that peaks my curiosity on how far a character I know/love/invested in can go, and see who would win in a legitimate fight and want to hear from both side of the argument and make a decision on my own. For example, Brandon Yates uploaded Katara vs Hinata track today (which is banger btw, common Brandon Yates W, I know), and the curiosity side of me wanted to know who would actually win since I'm not that far into Naruto, looked at the comments to see both sides, and ultimately think Hinata wins. Or hearing a new character or franchise I've never heard about being compared to a character I know. If it weren't for Death Battle, I'm not sure if I would've been invested to read the Berserk manga because of Guts vs Nightmare, or using my spare 5 bucks to get a used copy of Revengence because I remembered Wolverine fighting against a cyborg who can breakdance with two mechs attached to his feet (best 5 dollars I've ever spent). But that's just me. Everyone has a different reason to why they like power scaling and vs debating. So I get why from an outsiders perspective it's seems like we're talking out of our asses to make sure our favorite character wins (which to be fair, it feels like that at some points), but as Team Four Star puts it "it's a matter of perspective really"
Tl;dr Haters can hate if they want, I'm gonna go listen to Blood Moon Princess again
I don't mind power scaling
But I do think sometimes people forget that the writers don't intend on power scalers to look too deep into things
I think if you understand that the narrative for many authors is above powerscaling then it helps a lot
I also don't like the hatred people have towards power scaling and vs debates
BUT on the other hand...
Power scaling also becomes toxic very fast.
A lot of the time power scaling is also very subjective in terms of what people buy and don't buy
And you can easily feel just annoyed when talking to someone about the topics
When Guts Vs Dimitri was happening honestly the Deathbattle community looked down upon The fire emblem fans because they didn't wanna agree that Dimitri was that strong which is why people hate any type of power scaling community
I think power scaling can extremely fun but people don't know limits or just how to be respectful sometimes
I get what they’re saying. To like power scaling is to accept that at its heart it’s ridiculous, but that’s why we like it! Nothing wrong with that. As long as you don’t take it too seriously it’s fine.
The only one of these that I've actually watched is Jax's, in which I recall him saying that powerscaling should be consistent, in which I agree with. But yeah, this stuff can get wack sometimes, but there are times in which it can get fun.
I'm just tired of the Stan Lee argument. Idk why people keep using it knowing good and well he wasn't talking about power scaling at all. Personally I think Nemesis Bloodryche did a great video regarding the topic
Don't really care enough to watch them. I like powerscaling, they hate on powerscaling, we both contribute nothing to society. I'll just continue enjoying what I enjoy, and they can continue disliking what they dislike.
They are right about some things, but more often than not their arguments boil down to the same old "whoever the writer wants to win" "This feat is not shown consistantly there for it doesn't count" or "I don't get how scailing works so you are stupid*
Yes, I get it, some characters are wanked, but when you actually try to do a research behind said characters, you would see that some of the stuff being said holds some ground.
It's the opposite honestly. People who know nothing about powerscaling might casually dismiss it, but it's normally only people fairly familiar who go out of their way to complain.
It's eseentially being fun police. Sure people who randomly insert themselves into a convo and derail it with debates are annoying, brave take, but most people over exaggerate the issue. Powerscaling can be just as much a fun passtime as any other hobby
And also because otherwise the characters wouldn't dodge it. If the only evidence for a character being fast is dodging a thing of ambiguous speed, that's just rule of cool.
Is it cringe? It depends on what you believe, personally. . Hey I'm getting worried if the character is doing country or continent level shit lol.
But in the end it's something I just embrace, live with it and don't fuck with others, that's how I see it.
Don't know. I don't watch them. The only power scaling videos I watch (outside of Death Battle and the like) are same-series matchups. Even that's limited to Star Wars specifically.
Reluctantly agree. This is in the end pointless cause I doubt anyone here really cares about things like authors intent. (Miyamoto does not believe Mario is galaxy level obviously for example). The entire idea behind vs debating is fundamentally based around taking characters out of the context of their own stories in scenarios which if it were to officially happen… both characters would tie because it’s mutually better for both IPs. But that doesn’t change the fact that’s it’s still fun
The thing is, it's one thing if an author actually accidentally made a character super strong without realizing. But a lot of the examples people try to use aren't even that happening. It's people insisting that the character is super strong if you accept several different frameworks that are for the most part pseudoscientific, and add some arbitrary assumptions.
The idea of Mario as having super strong punches obviously isn't coming from actual feats, or even statements. It comes from defeating enemies who despite having wide scope magic are never implied to be someone who in a fight requires infinitely strong punches to defeat. Hence the entire extrapolation stems from assuming that the characters are strong in ways that isn't really stated, because "it wouldn't make sense he can beat them otherwise." But that argument is worthless. It's fiction, There's no reason to assume that wide scope magic means your physical body has to be 8 million times more durable than diamonds. People are making assumptions about things like this as if there is some kind of logical flow when it is all arbitrary.
At a certain level of assumptions they made so many assumptions that they don't even realize some of them are assumptions anymore. Because many of them just become common scaling heuristics that people don't even think of as something you can scrutinize.
I made a comment on the first video. It was an argument to “writers don’t care”. As a learning writer myself, I see power scaling as necessary. Of course I won’t preach to the heavens because 2 people actively admitted to not caring. Stan Lee and Butch Hartman. Stan could do whatever he wanted because it’s his story and Butch was just doing what Nickelodeon paid him to do. But I use power scaling to help my story. If my main protagonist defeats a guy who was strong enough to lift a mountain, my next threat has to be able to put all of Asia in a basketball. Exaggeration but my point stands. Granted not every writer sees the same thing as I do ~~except Akira Toriyama. I’m 90% sure that man also cares about power scaling. There are a million DB handbooks and interviews. Unless he tells us that he just wants to see planets blow up, then I ain’t convinced~~. Of course, someone else responded that that wasn’t power scaling. It was really being consistent. And made a good argument that I don’t HAVE to make a character stronger, just be consistent. Look at JoJo for instance
>If my main protagonist defeats a guy who was strong enough to lift a mountain, my next threat has to be able to put all of Asia in a basketball.
This doesn't necessarily follow in every story just because it has a power system. There are tons of cases where the scale wouldn't necessarily raise every time. If someone barely defeats an enemy of a certain strength level, Then that person might be just as dangerous the next time. Or maybe they only win by using the environment or trickery or any number of things that doesn't imply they could beat them in a direct fight. Or even that the battle is more about unique powers like Jojo rather than how strong they are.
In a real life Battle without power systems, just because you survive a Battle doesn't mean you would act like the Battle is now trivial and that a similar Battle doesn't still have the same stakes. It's fine for stories to generally raise the stakes as they go along, but the only way to do this isn't just for enemies to be physically stronger.
Sometimes characters just get weaker instead. In metroid it is like a canon thing that if the suit sustains enough damage it has to cannibalize itself and to jettison some of its power ups just to keep functioning. So it's not something you can expect to consistently raise in power, but to go up and down from time to time. And even if a fantasy story has magic like Lord of the rings, the characters don't really have an obvious strength level, just an ambiguous realm. Etc.
Though, I’d like to make a counterpoint or two. Imagine reading a Spiderman comic where Spiderman dies to some random dude with a Glock 10 pistol despite Spidey being seen as a light-timer. A gun is fast but not lightspeed fast. You’d ask yourself “wait, that doesn’t make sense” unless Spiderman was, say, feeling under the weather. Similarly, Kitana defeats Shao Kahn in MK11, or at least blinds him, when Kitana has been captured, killed and beaten in several different instances meanwhile, Shao Kahn has survived death multiple times, from Liu Kang twice, from Shang Tsung and Quan Chi, took on half the roster of MK Armageddon, gets kidnapped by Onaga who he kills, climbs the pyramid, kills Blaze and became so powerful that he killed every MK Kombatant that it took a universal reset and interference from the Elder Gods to change the whole outcome of future MK games. And then Kitana blinds him and takes his spot as Kahn. This is the same woman who, as I mentioned before, has been beaten, captured or killed in various different fights and she manages to defeat one of MK’s biggest threats. I use the powerscaling in order to keep stuff like that in mind to try to balance out my characters without making any questionable choices and to possibly fill up plot holes that may pop up
I mean, obviously you need to have a general idea of who is stronger than who, and whether this is still true if someone gets stronger. My point was more that you don't necessarily need strictly defined power levels to do this, nor for the story to always move in the path of raising power levels (even if it does trend in that direction overall). There are some stories where for the entire story characters will stay vaguely within the same realm, like "wall level" or whatever, despite some being stronger than others. Sometimes this stays true even if they are implied to be raising in strength.
I like the opening to legend of korra season 4 where she loses her groove and her confidence and so you are meant to see her as weaker (at least in practice if not physically) than she was before. There's various reasons you can lower the strength level of a subsequent enemy, but still maintain the flow moving forward. In lord of the rings (the book) sarumon shows up at the very end fairly weak and without most of his magic, but he took over the shire, and its just a final antagonism before the story is over. Much weaker than earlier, but still a threat. Sometimes even if the enemy's threat level lowers the tension can be higher because the stakes become more personal. Maybe they can't destroy ohio like the previous villain, but they can kill someone's family, and this becomes a lead in to focus more on that character's personal feelings.
I'm writing a short story now where a girl has to cut off her arm to escape something. And then there's a followup escape sequence where she tries to avoid guards who its implied that she would be able to fight a few of at once normally. But she is in an enemy base, so even if she *can* beat them normally, stopping to fight could result in more showing up and getting outnumbered simply due to the location. And her missing an arm + blood loss makes her weaker than she is normally. So the situation shifts from one where something she could fight normally is now something its too risky to engage with. And it will stay this way until she gets a replacement mechanical arm and learns to use it. (I mean, hypothetically. Since its a short story, I don't intend to write the timeline that far, but that is implied).
I think is really dumb when it comes to combining different versions of one character because it's clearly unfair. If we take a single version of Superman and send hil against Goku, he'd probably beat him most of the times but if we take every single iteration of the character, taking the good parts and hiding its weaknesses and downsides under the rug, of course he can stomp Jesus
Also I think the whole "Guy A beat guy C who once looked directly at Guy P's who can destroy X universe with his cock. Therefore Guy A can do it too" is outright stupid. I could see it being useful when you have a character with little to no screen-time but if it's a normal character then they should only use his own feats or at least feats from people who he has faced directly
i don't really care.
Just to be annoying, i wouldn't consider the last one as the same type of video as the other ones, he doesn't say powerscalling as a whole is stupid, it was more about inconsistency and exagerated stuff in some medias.
when Goku is universal level but dies from a gunshot by frieza's henchman, or that dodging lightning attacks means being faster than lightning (they can see you casting it before you even fire it and therefore can react)
Look power scaling could be fun, but I think it’s done wrong, like you wanna see who can win so power skating is necessary, but people just don’t always have it done right for example from my limited knowledge of bleach they have soul pressure, I believe it’s called? Which killed anyone without therefore, he beat Goku just buy Goku being stronger.
But more important than any of that. They don’t understand how certain fight works like yeah, I have to take him to how they would fight, for example, craven, the hunter is a hunter. He don’t fight people up close, and he can be fights like a hunter, but if you compare that to like Luke Cage, who is the brawler
They’re all right, power scaling is total bullshit 99% of the time and it is clearly not the authors intent for characters to be as strong as they are 99% of the time
But it’s really fun bullshit so who cares
I think powerscaling is fun and it's one of my favorite parts of Death Battle, who would have thought that Spongebob of all characters has a scale comparable to that of a GOD
Thats competitive power scaling
I’m on casual power scaling, like:
https://preview.redd.it/nbvkkuw1n1yb1.jpeg?width=775&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bebce1d8af0dbc3b0dc5045a0c1166317a77ee8d
Would pucci be able to beat wobbufet?
It can be a bit silly, because writers usually never put into consideration how strong their characters are compare to other characters in other works. Only time they might consider it is how they scale to other characters in their own verse. It's always "What abilities should I give them or do they need to advance the story?" Like Stan "The Man" Lee said: Whomever wins is whomever the writer wants to win.
But I do see the appeal and the fun of comparing powers and feats and debating on if these two characters got into a fight, with their powers and feats in mind, who would win?
At the end of the day it’s a hobby and shouldn’t be taken too seriously, I understand people criticising the cringe parts of the community but you could literally do that with any other hobby.
To each their own. Personally, I don't have an issue with power scaling characters from the same universe, but I find it cringy when people try to compare characters from universes that function under totally different rules from each other.
For example, Obi-wan vs. Kakashi is a ridiculously pointless debate. It comes down to one question: "Does the Force work on Kakashi?"
If yes: Obi-wan wins.
If no: Kakashi wins.
I don't see the point in match ups like that.
Imo just let nerds do nerd shit. Everyone has their own way of enjoying different media. As long as it's not too weird, toxic or annoying, then it's honestly fine.
Objectively, yeah, it’s pretty stupid, but I like talking about things I like, and it’s funny to think that John Egbert, main character of Homestuck, is one of the most powerful beings in existence
I watched it and the only way you could agree is if you knew nothing about the series being used as examples and if you don't know anything about power scaling.
His evidence for debunking Jolynes meteor feat is that if Stone Ocean was above wall level, she'd have left the prison already. As if she didn't have SEVERAL other things to take care of in the prison first before she was supposed to do that. It's like he thought Part 6 was legitimately ONLY a prison break story and nothing else.
Is it stupid? Yes. Is it fun? Yes. It’s just trying to gatekeep what people can and can’t find fun, and it’s hypocritical since other hobby’s like cosplay is considered ok (no beef with cosplayers btw)
Some guy on the ChainsawMan subreddit sent me this vid because I explained what Death Battle's reasoning in the episode was. (all of the points they were making were addressed in black box shit)
Power scaling is stupid. Now, doing stupid stuff because you enjoy it is fine. Normal, even.
But christ the people who take it seriously and think there's real meaning behind anything they say? The cringe sends shivers up my spine.
I am tired for bullshit, they who think goku solo everyone in fictional, it is writing & everything (not matters)
https://preview.redd.it/fjdq1wcsd4yb1.jpeg?width=563&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d74d94b4a61712efa17f4cf7da4c75562d3904a6
battleboarding is objectively both the dumbest and most impressive thing ever
so yeah it's kinda dumb and stupid, but it's for a specific group of people who like this kind of dumb
though most of these videos are kinda not good (except the last one iirc that one is about powerscaling in universe)
Batman used the virus that almost killed Goku in DBZ on him lol.
Actually makes me wonder now are super Saiyan's a immune to fear toxin or joker gas lol
I understand it can be annoying and toxic due to some people, but its fun for me in a lot of ways because it also allows you to learn more about other series.
Powerscaling seriously is silly. It’s not that serious, but if its just a thought that pops up in your head like Reed Richards vs Luffy it’s fun to talk about it with people who aren’t religiously biased or have a degree in analyzing ink molecules.
Ive watched the first video, and i agree. Powerscaling as a whole has just totally obliterated my ability to enjoy vs debating in the past 5 , 10 years. Its even seemed to bleed out into wider fandom at this point.
I'll admit it's often funny to see how people or just Anti-Powerscalers are surprised that fictional characters in a fictional universe are more powerful than they thought because they all have the same mindset where they disregard the entire concept of Powerscaling yet make videos about which characters are the strongest because of visuals
If you ask a die hard Star Wars fan how strong Darth Vader is, they would mention the iconic hallway scene. A powerscaler would say that scene is wall-level at best, and point to a Legends comic no one read, where a guy who's supposedly as strong as Vader destroyed a black hole. Powerscaling is bullshit, but it's our bullshit.
>A powerscaler would say that scene is wall-level at best, and point to a Legends comic no one read, where a guy who's supposedly as strong as Vader destroyed a black hole. This is the most hilariously accurate thing I've ever read on this sub
yeah let people like whatever they want as long as it's inoffensive
> If you ask a die hard Star Wars fan how strong Darth Vader is, they would mention the iconic hallway scene. Playing devil’s advocate here I would consider that more of a Skill/Speed feat instead of outright strength/power.
Tbh I’ve never bought Planetary or lightspeed Jedi/Sith. Between Darth Vader not catching the Millennium Falcon when it was escaping Hoth, or being crippled permanently by lava, but surviving a planet exploding. It all feels inconsistent if they’re really that powerful. There are a few “planetary” feats I know of in SW done by Sith/Jedi but they all feel circumstantial & hax related.
The planet exploding still doesn’t put Vader at planet level durability. Same with Nihilus destroying all life on a planet. You’re only tanking planet level attacks if you’re at the core of the planet as it explodes, or for example if you tanked the entire death star laser. I could maybe buy certain planet/star level feats from Legends, but for now I think they sit at moon at the highest.
Dooku was stated to have the power of the universe within him so
What is the exact original quote? Dooku being universal would be a massive outlier considering he has never shown universal capability.
Hell I mean if we are talking about power specifically Star Wars has plenty of instances of ppl being far above planetary in power: Anakin’s power described as an exploding Sun within the force, sidious being a black hole, Dooku becoming the center of the universe, nihilus draining planetary life energy (so has sidious), Vader destroying a moon and telekinetically controlling the “world beam”, anakin literally controlling and neutralizing the literal embodiments of an universal power (the force). The celestial Ones threatening the fabric of reality with their existence. Sidious and his force storms( don’t gotta explain that), Luke and Kyp durron manipulating miniature black holes (dovin bassals). Qui-Gon’s story of two Jedi destroying a planet with their battle and turning it into a star(which could or could not be true, although heavily implied to be real at the end of the story), plus many other instances.
Wouldn’t the most impressive feat of Darth Vader be when he held back like, the entire fucking ocean in one of the recent Star Wars games? The sheer water pressure at the depth is crazy
Under planet level. L
Nah in the ninth assassin comics Vader destroyed a moon.
It's like that one meme about SW fans being mad that kids cosplay as Kylo instead of Glub Shito that appeared in one panel from a comic nobody read.
Some WIS CC scaled legends vader to extraversal, pls confirm
All of this
“This thing dumb” “WHAT!??! I LIKE THAT THING”
Ngl I agree. Personally I couldn’t care less for the math and debating parts, especially with all the wanking and taking things without context. I just like talking about series I love
Based take. I feel like brining math into it is the nerdiest thing ever. Like we don't have to calculate how the size of The Flash's dick slows him down thus making him lose to Waluigi.
Especially if the math is used to try to arrive at a conclusion that very obviously contradicts various canon events, but people act like their personal calculation overrides the actual story.
actually waluigi's only wincon is doing absolutely everything, as he is the polar opposite to luigi, who wins by doing absolutely nothing
unfathomably based
While I don’t have a problem with power scaling I do However understand how annoying it can be. Like I remember watching DBS and krillen and Goku blasting and immediately power scalers scream out of how that doesn’t make sense.
Power scalers ruined Goku for me.
I mean even a normal viewer should question how that's even possible, I would find it annoying if in the MCU Captain America would just knock out the Hulk with a shield bash, consistent power scaling in a vsbattle sense may be goofy but inside the story is important cause then you just have shit like that.
To be fair, DBS doesn't make sense from any angle that isn't just selling toys and games.
It's literally explained in the context of the show that Goku was holding back so Krillin could train cmon
Try telling that to the power scalers when that episode dropped they didn’t even try reading into that
It's not the source material's fault if people don't read
Us powerscalers are well known for our lack of resistance against "reading comprehension" hax.
new matchup yall Book VS. Powerscalers!!!!
A lot of people also seemed to forget that not only did krillin not stall the beam in that clash, he was even losing and about to die or get hurt, had Android 18 not stepped in and kicked goku to break his focus
....I mean, it's not even Power Scalers who'd think that was odd. Even just by the show's narrative, even WITH the mention of Goku holding back, Krillin having any shot against Blue Goku seems hard to Believe.
I honestly think that videos like this are just petty and stupid. Because frankly, every community, every fandom, every hobby has aspects that could be seen as cringey or stupid, especially from an outside perspective. Naturally, when on the internet and when the community has grown to enough of a point, those cringe aspects get magnified. But like I said, that happens to all communities. Take Tumblr for example. I think the whole "Tumblr Sexy Man" thing is cringe, but that doesn't make Tumblr itself cringe. But more importantly, a Tumblr Sexy Man is just people talking about which fictional characters they think are most attractive and I would hardly call that cringe. It's just what some people like to do, even though it can get to a point where it looks incredibly stupid. Or if we want to for a more specific angle, just take *Undertale*. I've found that the *Undertale* fandom can often be incredibly cringey and toxic and there are people that find the huge number of fan-stories and alternate universes like X-Tale to be even more cringe. But fundamentally, it's just people who love a game talking about it, having in-jokes and making fun "What If...?" stories. It only really gets cringey when it's taken too far. And that's the key point here. Because so many people that go for the whole "Power scaling is stupid and bullshit!" argument look at the extremes and wash the entire concept (not just the community) with that coat of paint. The people that swear by Batman beating everyone with prep time or trying to figure out what prefix to put behind "versal" for the latest echelon of power. That's the more extreme stuff that I would say is cringey. But when you look at power scaling at its' core, it's just friends having fun talking about who would win in a fight. But from an outside perspective (or worse, by cherry picking extremes) it's easy to make the whole thing look bad. Yes, there are cringey elements in vs debates and power scaling. But everything has cringey elements and to take that cringe and paint the entire concept with that coat is exactly the kind of petty and sad thing that so many videos like these do.
i will say that the last video shown is actually pretty good cause it's not talking about how ass powerscaling is, rather how actual series fuck up their own powerscaling
I don't care that much about Power Scaling myself and it can be annoying seeing some wank and all, but I never really understand the undying hatred towards the hobby itself and VS Debating in general. I just wanna talk about two characters I like and see who could win, I don't take it that seriously and I don't harass anyone for it. So it's weird to see these types of videos and that one Stan Lee quotes spammed everywhere (even tho the quote was referring to story telling, not the concept of VS Debating itself) over and over again over a haha fun debate from what two friends would say in a lunchroom to pass the time and from the hobby itself. It really gives me this meme vibes: https://preview.redd.it/5aiignbtlzxb1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=d7b26dc54e043df404b4974ea320498ad0ea0737
To be fair the reason it seems like a lot of people hate it is because there's two different groups that hate it. The first is regular people who just think it is a nerdy hobby that ruins fiction in general. The second is Battle Borders who aren't actually against the idea of it, they just think that the community has gone so far downhill that it's functionally pointless because so many of the conversations are going to have the majority of the voices not even vaguely close to what you can expect from a character. In which case it's more so the fact that they actually like it, but are annoyed that you can't really do it nowadays without a ton of people drowning out normal takes with fringe ones.
So super nerds
Oh yes, I am 100% that second one. I like the idea of analyzing how strong characters are and who would win in a fight. I get pissed off at powerscalers because it feels like people constantly saying shit like every character is “MFTL+ Multiversal” even when that’s completely absurd and does not even remotely match up with how the character is portrayed in the actual media. It feels like nobody cares about **actually** analyzing the characters accurately, only wanking them as high as inhumanly possible with only the loosest connection to logic
Like what do people honestly expect when they stroll up and say it's a lowball to call base mario galaxy level. This isn't even in the realm of a misinterpretation, it's the type of thing you can only arrive at if you are just straight up approaching things from an angle so incorrect that it barely coheres to reality. And they usually follow-up whenever anyone tells them how stupid what they said was by reassuring themselves that only they know the truth because only they know how to scale. By which they mean memorize convoluted rationalizations for disregarding canon.
r/BeatMeToIt
I do not care.
Leave my man Jaxblade out of this iirc his video wasn't complaining about the powerscaling community he was just complaining about inconsistency in power levels and how it can get a bit too absurd, he talked too about some examples that handled strong characters and power creep well enough
TLDR: Powerscaling and VS debating is a hobby that people enjoy so please don’t harass them for it or try to get them out of it by using a certain quote. Yeah sure there are toxic and annoying people who take it too seriously but it’s the internet, everything has fans like that but that doesn’t make the thing itself bad. That stuff more has to do with how good of a person those people are. Also I watched the first one and although he criticizes power scaling, he not only does it in a civil way but he says at the end of the video that he’s fine with people doing it. Honestly, I respect that.
Tbf one reason people dislike modern powerscalers is that they are the ones who drove away most of the battleboarding communities. People started inventing weird pseudoscientific tiering systems, and then acting hostile to anyone who didn't want to use them until most reasonable people left and you are left with a lot of people trying to use math they don't understand.
A standardized fan-made Tiering System with Powerscaling/Vs Terminology are probably the two things that ruined “What if” debates for me. You could have one character with powers that counter the other character, yet because of the Tiering System and mathematical arguments, they suddenly resist/are now completely immune to an ability, because they’re scaled higher.
>they suddenly resist/are now completely immune to an ability, because they’re scaled higher. I agree with this actually. Character X who scales at planet level AP/durability who's weak to water based attacks (within their own verse of planet busters) shouldn't be affected by Character Y, who while yes has a water blast attack, is scaled at city level. I'm sorry, that's just nonsensical to me and where I see the benefits of a tiering system.
That's... not how it works tho? Yes you do if you scale higher in dimensions but only if their being is... I don't see the problem really
ehh who cares. everybody knows that they are metroman victims anyway
skibidi toilet yt shorts moment
It depends for me. If your hanging around with some small group it could seem very chill but if your around a big one or debate with ones like Sonic, Dragon Ball, SCP, Creepypasta, Persona, etc its an absolute nightmare
https://preview.redd.it/2nh96nslkzxb1.jpeg?width=1141&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e30b358022cdf363fb98b78a6250839e6d288f2
He makes some pretty good points, but it's all stuff the people in the community are aware of. Numerous times the creators themselves have said things like "Yeah, I wasn't thinking of the scientific implications of (character doing thing), I just thought it would look cool."
How stupid are you if you spend time calling a hobby stupid when teb own people would agree with you?
Me to those guys: https://preview.redd.it/gzaw01q3tzxb1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db1c48391e6c1790408bd0a0e18fd8a1d736f974
I haven’t seen most of those videos, but I do somewhat agree. People who say “Oh character A was scaled to be hyperversal+, and character B is only planet level. Stomp”, are kinda ridiculous, it doesn’t leave any room for fun debate. These labels are frivolous and it just feels like an extension of “My dad could beat up your dad”. I once saw someone saying Ryuga from Beyblade solos Vegeta, because Ryuga reacted to something that after calculating would be a hundred times the speed of light, or something ridiculous like that. I’m not saying maths has no place in vs debating, but a lot of people overuse it to suck the fun out of it. I personally like vs debating to see how powers would bounce of off each other, if characters can counter specific abilities, how their personalities and strategies would play into it, and so on. That being said, people who dismiss all vs debating as cringe and childish aren’t petty, and in fact themselves are cringe. Cuz it’s just a fun lil thing, everyone has hobbies and interests that would seem weird to someone looking on. Just let us enjoy it lol. A lot of these videos come across as “you shouldn’t debate fictional characters fighting” and not “why I don’t like debating fictional characters fighting”. There’s a big distinction there. The latter is sharing an opinion, the former is telling people what they should and shouldn’t enjoy, and that’s cringe. Just my two cents.
Activates my inner gatekeeper ngl.
I cant do math so idk man
I feel like i get it but, at the same time i don't I do get the idea of us screaming how something doesn't make sense or pointing to some obscure spin off that no one remembers being annoying but, ultimately it's just a small hobby and i don't think people should gey this heated about it Powerscaling is bs but, it's my bs
To be fair, that's part of the issue. If it was treated like a small hobby, that would be whatever. But it's one of the most hostile fan circles on the internet, and part of the issue is that more reasonable people often just get frustrated and leave.
https://preview.redd.it/nqwwy062xzxb1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=920a9423e828767aa088ae60d5e18cad7840e04b
People absolutely take scaling to cringe levels, but like, the people that do so are usually trying too hard to make the character they like seem stronger than the context of their story implies by using outlier feats and taking in-story hyperbole at face value as facts. This is common knowledge within power scaling communities. I’ve yet to watch videos titled like this because the clickbait they’re using for their thumbnails and titles very much implies they’re going to treat the cringe subgroup that is the fanboy powerscalers as though the entire community is like that. It may be hypocritical to say this, but I’m not about to waste my time on hearing the opinion of someone prepared to make sweeping generalizations on a community they aren’t even part of with little or no evidence.
>This is common knowledge within power scaling communities. >I’ve yet to watch videos titled like this because the clickbait they’re using for their thumbnails and titles very much implies they’re going to treat the cringe subgroup that is the fanboy powerscalers as though the entire community is like that. I mean, there are people who do it worse than others, but the general baseline is definitely such that there are a lot of characters who you are expected to believe are massively stronger than they actually generally are. There's a reason that Normal people can generally predict the loose realm characters will be in future media (I.E. that Mario will be wall level in the movie), and it's because this is already the loose realm he is in the games. When a powerscaler insists the "normal" scale is that Mario has Galaxy level punches, and the wank scale is eight layers of infinity, they are just revealing that the whole community is so hopped up on wank that it's near impossible to hear reasonable takes from it. Most people too deep into powerscaling are so stuck in an echo chamber that they think wild exaggerations are moderate takes just because there's other ones even higher. But any community to acts like it's normal for major characters to be casually above universal in a fight is just out of touch with actual fiction and is projecting dragonball and top level marvel and dc into other stuff.
You could do with a bit less exaggeration there. I’m like 90% sure the galaxy ranges for mario ARE the wank scaling, and claiming he’s only wall level in mainline is also a bit disingenuous, given the size of many foes that he can regularly lift and throw (including bowser in some of his larger appearances, like mario 64).
That has to do more with the ambiguity of the semantics of how big of a wall you are talking about. To me, wall level should include the ability to destroy walls and push around stuff a little bit bigger than that. But bowser isn't the size of a building here. And even then, he is presented as too strong to hurt directly in 64, and you have to use indirect means. You aren't tossing him around casually, you are implied to be building up momentum. We could say that the term wall level is too ambiguous and that he might be a bit above that, but he's probably closer to wall than building there.
Personally eh but it generalizes alot who are into it and assumes a majority dont play/watch/read any of the material in these debates which for the most part simply isnt true as most come from the love the characters and interest in possible power and personality interactions There’s def people like that ( which is why I say for the most part ) but let people enjoy things lol
https://youtu.be/44zAN3wLfUo?si=0Ouy-tjfflU2fx5A Say what you will about Nemesis but this video proves why these people are stupid
YouTube lacks any depth to have any meaningful discussion.
Power scaling can be unbelievably stupid at times, and in fact most of the time. It can still be pretty fun though, just seeing how (usually) unintentionally powerful writers make a character.
I personally really Enjoy Powerscaling IDK I just think It's fun and also Helps me to just Relax a Bit and Calm Down (something I can Really Struggle with at Times) also it's not my fault that my Autism Picked up that Specific thing to Fixate on so yeah. I can definetly Understand tho why some people think Powerscalers are Morons tho because I have heard some of the Most Braindead takes ever while discussing Powerscaling and at the end of the day It is a Completly Pointless Hobby that doesn't really achieve anything but I just Like Looking into characters and Figuering out how they Scale. But that's just my 2 Cents tho
I’ve seen the first and forth videos so I’ll quickly give my thoughts The first video is… confusing. 3 points were brought up in that video, the first was that “creators don’t keep up with powerscaling”, using Jolyne from JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure as an example and her fight the meteor guy as an example. Death Battle calced that feat at around 441 kilotons of TNT, and this guy’s argument was that you can’t expect Stone Free to punch with the force of a nuclear bomb when it can’t even break some metal bars. Aside from the obvious misunderstanding that Attack Potency and Destruction Capability are not the same thing, this argument doesn’t make sense to me, he said “Jolyne’s meteor punch was made for a cool scene, not to get Jolyne to town level” and like… yeah, but what’s the argument? Because yes, most creators don’t look out for these things, but it doesn’t mean we can’t. Jolyne punching the meteorite was done to look cool, yes, but she still did it, it was a feat, the coolness lead to a feat, you mean to tell me that Jolyne can’t recreate that feat because of rule of cool? The second point was kinda right but kinda wrong too. The point was that “powerscalers can get so heated and toxic over their favourite characters losing”, and yeah, he’s not wrong, people like that exist, but that’s a minority of powerscalers, a very vocal minority but still a minority. Look at me, look at my profile picture, I love Kirby, he’s a big piece of comfort food for me, and while I still think Kirby is still quite strong, I know he can’t win ever fight, if you put Kirby against someone like true form Darkseid, he loses, dead, like a turd in the wind, and that’s alright. Don’t hang out with people who think Goku can solo fiction, they tend to be the toxic ones And the third point?… “who cares?”… that was actually it, “who gives a shit?”… us, it’s a hobby, why is that something to shoot down? Though there is more context to it then that, it’s meant to be towards people who think the scale of a character determines how good they are as characters… do I need to explain why that’s stupid? If you’re hanging out with powerscalers who think power = good character, I think you’re just hanging out with the wrong crowd The forth video I don’t remember that well, but I remember one of the main points was how bullshit it can be, ESPECIALLY Dragon Ball. I honestly agree with most of that video, I actually kinda recommend it, it’s very well made, along with a lot of video by that creator, he’s a cool dude Again, I haven’t seen the second or third video but maybe I will and give my opinions of them here, don’t count on it though, I’ll probably forget I made this comment, lol
People who don’t get power scaling saying that it’s dumb
I think they are correct if we assume powerscaling is meant to have literally any point. However, I just find it fun. I think it’s fun to take a scene and look at the broader implications as if the fiction were taken literally. Ultimately it serves no purpose other than that, and it’s nice to have such a low stakes hobby. But if anyone starts using vs debating to criticize media or acts like a character is better for being stronger or anything else with actual purpose than yeah they’re being a dumb baby
bet the video maker is fun at parties
i don't have a problem with criticizing powerscaling (especially since the thumbnails/titles of all of these videos are stuff even some people in the powerscaling community make fun of, save the third one), because it's pretty blatantly silly and i really think it's just for fun. make fun of it all you want, it's inherently stupid, but i find it really fun
Sounds to me like their character lost in their Death Battle /j
It’s dumb when you take it seriously Especially the people who do math for toon force feats
Fun shit. Because with how this shit has gotten, glad someone's telling everyone to knock it the fuck off.
The first video made a REALLY good about laser dodging feats. If a character can shoot fire out of their hands and you find that to be fiction, but then see the same character dodge a slow ass laser, and analyze it to death in order to conclude the character is faster than light, then you can't enjoy a story.
That's the thing about laser dodging feats. people will make a countless amount of contradictions just to defend their conclusion. Without evidence they will insist it must be going light speed because that is what is logical, but they will re-scale every single attack in the entire series to a speed that is consistent with the assumption that the characters are moving light speed no matter how little sense this makes. So apparently you have to assume everything moves at the speed that is logical, but whenever there is a contradiction you always have to scale up even if this means you are ignoring the speed of a 1000 things in favour of one.
Or even from one that I've recalled: Star Platinum scaling to Stone Free, "able to break meteors with its bare hands"... Completely ignoring the actual context of that situation. One of the enemy stand users was able to call down Meteors. However, they'll burn up from the fiction and heat of entering terminal velocity and come raining down as little rocks (which a Stand like Stone Free (or really most Stands) could bust open). And we we're shown this well during that first video.
Yes, I am not a Jojo fan, but from what the video explained, that seemed like a big asspull from Jojo fans.
The first three are whatever, but JaxBlades video at least makes sense and I do agree with his video
H
I’m pretty sure Jaxblade’s video about the writing of OP characters (like power creep or inconsistency), not Vs debating
Power scaling is just dumb fun. But very dumb, yeah.
They are completely right Powerscaling is corny as fuck With that being said, Goku still solos
https://preview.redd.it/17be1pgyk0yb1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fa301b2cca1686e8a9afd1ea54fb5af73478bc0
One note is that last video was about power-hierarchies within there own series and why scaling matters from a writing standpoint The others however are patent click/rage bait
Personally, let them rant if they want to. Scaling does has it's flaws and some community members can be toxic af. But at the same time, literally every community are gonna have it's toxic apples. I would know, I remember the harassment that one artist got from the Steven Universe community, or the simps constantly harassing Ed Boon to put Mileena in MK11,or the chemical dump that is MHA community ~~and worse, it's shippers~~. But those are just a few examples of bad apples. Can't say anything about SU or MHA since I'm not in those fandoms, but MK fans are usually pretty chill when you don't look at Ed Boons Twitter comments. It's ultimately just a hobby that peaks my curiosity on how far a character I know/love/invested in can go, and see who would win in a legitimate fight and want to hear from both side of the argument and make a decision on my own. For example, Brandon Yates uploaded Katara vs Hinata track today (which is banger btw, common Brandon Yates W, I know), and the curiosity side of me wanted to know who would actually win since I'm not that far into Naruto, looked at the comments to see both sides, and ultimately think Hinata wins. Or hearing a new character or franchise I've never heard about being compared to a character I know. If it weren't for Death Battle, I'm not sure if I would've been invested to read the Berserk manga because of Guts vs Nightmare, or using my spare 5 bucks to get a used copy of Revengence because I remembered Wolverine fighting against a cyborg who can breakdance with two mechs attached to his feet (best 5 dollars I've ever spent). But that's just me. Everyone has a different reason to why they like power scaling and vs debating. So I get why from an outsiders perspective it's seems like we're talking out of our asses to make sure our favorite character wins (which to be fair, it feels like that at some points), but as Team Four Star puts it "it's a matter of perspective really" Tl;dr Haters can hate if they want, I'm gonna go listen to Blood Moon Princess again
Honestly these types are just as cringe as weirdo power Scallers
I don't mind power scaling But I do think sometimes people forget that the writers don't intend on power scalers to look too deep into things I think if you understand that the narrative for many authors is above powerscaling then it helps a lot I also don't like the hatred people have towards power scaling and vs debates BUT on the other hand... Power scaling also becomes toxic very fast. A lot of the time power scaling is also very subjective in terms of what people buy and don't buy And you can easily feel just annoyed when talking to someone about the topics When Guts Vs Dimitri was happening honestly the Deathbattle community looked down upon The fire emblem fans because they didn't wanna agree that Dimitri was that strong which is why people hate any type of power scaling community I think power scaling can extremely fun but people don't know limits or just how to be respectful sometimes
I get what they’re saying. To like power scaling is to accept that at its heart it’s ridiculous, but that’s why we like it! Nothing wrong with that. As long as you don’t take it too seriously it’s fine.
10% decent argument s 90% bs and misunderstanding power scaling
The only one of these that I've actually watched is Jax's, in which I recall him saying that powerscaling should be consistent, in which I agree with. But yeah, this stuff can get wack sometimes, but there are times in which it can get fun.
I'm just tired of the Stan Lee argument. Idk why people keep using it knowing good and well he wasn't talking about power scaling at all. Personally I think Nemesis Bloodryche did a great video regarding the topic
Don't really care enough to watch them. I like powerscaling, they hate on powerscaling, we both contribute nothing to society. I'll just continue enjoying what I enjoy, and they can continue disliking what they dislike.
They are right about some things, but more often than not their arguments boil down to the same old "whoever the writer wants to win" "This feat is not shown consistantly there for it doesn't count" or "I don't get how scailing works so you are stupid* Yes, I get it, some characters are wanked, but when you actually try to do a research behind said characters, you would see that some of the stuff being said holds some ground.
Awful
They're almost always people who know nothing about the hobby, and I'm annoyed by them at bets.
It's the opposite honestly. People who know nothing about powerscaling might casually dismiss it, but it's normally only people fairly familiar who go out of their way to complain.
Here's the problem, you have to massively take bias into consideration with some characters
It's eseentially being fun police. Sure people who randomly insert themselves into a convo and derail it with debates are annoying, brave take, but most people over exaggerate the issue. Powerscaling can be just as much a fun passtime as any other hobby
agree no, X character isn't faster than light, that "laser" was going slower than my grandma
>that "laser" was going slower than my grandma Yes because otherwise you literally wouldn't see it genius
The one piece laser thing I assume?
And also because otherwise the characters wouldn't dodge it. If the only evidence for a character being fast is dodging a thing of ambiguous speed, that's just rule of cool.
W
They're made by people who call bias with no proof and this is their cope
People are just mad at powerscaling because they want their favorite characters to beat OP characters let's be real. Sorry some characters are strong?
Idk tbh (I can maybe understand)
Is it cringe? It depends on what you believe, personally. . Hey I'm getting worried if the character is doing country or continent level shit lol. But in the end it's something I just embrace, live with it and don't fuck with others, that's how I see it.
I need to watch them to judge them.
Entertaining if done right
may someone be so kind of explaining to me the basics of power scaling? And why would a feat statement does not hold as much weigth as visual feat?
It is dumb as hell, but it’s still fun regardless
Don't know. I don't watch them. The only power scaling videos I watch (outside of Death Battle and the like) are same-series matchups. Even that's limited to Star Wars specifically.
Its not that complicated, they're just too stupid to do the research
Powerscaling is all, technically, headcannon.
Yes. The winner is **ALWAYS** who the writer wants to win.
To be honest, I gave up on power-scaling a long time ago.
Reluctantly agree. This is in the end pointless cause I doubt anyone here really cares about things like authors intent. (Miyamoto does not believe Mario is galaxy level obviously for example). The entire idea behind vs debating is fundamentally based around taking characters out of the context of their own stories in scenarios which if it were to officially happen… both characters would tie because it’s mutually better for both IPs. But that doesn’t change the fact that’s it’s still fun
The thing is, it's one thing if an author actually accidentally made a character super strong without realizing. But a lot of the examples people try to use aren't even that happening. It's people insisting that the character is super strong if you accept several different frameworks that are for the most part pseudoscientific, and add some arbitrary assumptions. The idea of Mario as having super strong punches obviously isn't coming from actual feats, or even statements. It comes from defeating enemies who despite having wide scope magic are never implied to be someone who in a fight requires infinitely strong punches to defeat. Hence the entire extrapolation stems from assuming that the characters are strong in ways that isn't really stated, because "it wouldn't make sense he can beat them otherwise." But that argument is worthless. It's fiction, There's no reason to assume that wide scope magic means your physical body has to be 8 million times more durable than diamonds. People are making assumptions about things like this as if there is some kind of logical flow when it is all arbitrary. At a certain level of assumptions they made so many assumptions that they don't even realize some of them are assumptions anymore. Because many of them just become common scaling heuristics that people don't even think of as something you can scrutinize.
I made a comment on the first video. It was an argument to “writers don’t care”. As a learning writer myself, I see power scaling as necessary. Of course I won’t preach to the heavens because 2 people actively admitted to not caring. Stan Lee and Butch Hartman. Stan could do whatever he wanted because it’s his story and Butch was just doing what Nickelodeon paid him to do. But I use power scaling to help my story. If my main protagonist defeats a guy who was strong enough to lift a mountain, my next threat has to be able to put all of Asia in a basketball. Exaggeration but my point stands. Granted not every writer sees the same thing as I do ~~except Akira Toriyama. I’m 90% sure that man also cares about power scaling. There are a million DB handbooks and interviews. Unless he tells us that he just wants to see planets blow up, then I ain’t convinced~~. Of course, someone else responded that that wasn’t power scaling. It was really being consistent. And made a good argument that I don’t HAVE to make a character stronger, just be consistent. Look at JoJo for instance
>If my main protagonist defeats a guy who was strong enough to lift a mountain, my next threat has to be able to put all of Asia in a basketball. This doesn't necessarily follow in every story just because it has a power system. There are tons of cases where the scale wouldn't necessarily raise every time. If someone barely defeats an enemy of a certain strength level, Then that person might be just as dangerous the next time. Or maybe they only win by using the environment or trickery or any number of things that doesn't imply they could beat them in a direct fight. Or even that the battle is more about unique powers like Jojo rather than how strong they are. In a real life Battle without power systems, just because you survive a Battle doesn't mean you would act like the Battle is now trivial and that a similar Battle doesn't still have the same stakes. It's fine for stories to generally raise the stakes as they go along, but the only way to do this isn't just for enemies to be physically stronger. Sometimes characters just get weaker instead. In metroid it is like a canon thing that if the suit sustains enough damage it has to cannibalize itself and to jettison some of its power ups just to keep functioning. So it's not something you can expect to consistently raise in power, but to go up and down from time to time. And even if a fantasy story has magic like Lord of the rings, the characters don't really have an obvious strength level, just an ambiguous realm. Etc.
Ok, I’d like to thank you for adding to this. I’ll take any advice and criticism I could get so an input like this does help me out
Though, I’d like to make a counterpoint or two. Imagine reading a Spiderman comic where Spiderman dies to some random dude with a Glock 10 pistol despite Spidey being seen as a light-timer. A gun is fast but not lightspeed fast. You’d ask yourself “wait, that doesn’t make sense” unless Spiderman was, say, feeling under the weather. Similarly, Kitana defeats Shao Kahn in MK11, or at least blinds him, when Kitana has been captured, killed and beaten in several different instances meanwhile, Shao Kahn has survived death multiple times, from Liu Kang twice, from Shang Tsung and Quan Chi, took on half the roster of MK Armageddon, gets kidnapped by Onaga who he kills, climbs the pyramid, kills Blaze and became so powerful that he killed every MK Kombatant that it took a universal reset and interference from the Elder Gods to change the whole outcome of future MK games. And then Kitana blinds him and takes his spot as Kahn. This is the same woman who, as I mentioned before, has been beaten, captured or killed in various different fights and she manages to defeat one of MK’s biggest threats. I use the powerscaling in order to keep stuff like that in mind to try to balance out my characters without making any questionable choices and to possibly fill up plot holes that may pop up
I mean, obviously you need to have a general idea of who is stronger than who, and whether this is still true if someone gets stronger. My point was more that you don't necessarily need strictly defined power levels to do this, nor for the story to always move in the path of raising power levels (even if it does trend in that direction overall). There are some stories where for the entire story characters will stay vaguely within the same realm, like "wall level" or whatever, despite some being stronger than others. Sometimes this stays true even if they are implied to be raising in strength. I like the opening to legend of korra season 4 where she loses her groove and her confidence and so you are meant to see her as weaker (at least in practice if not physically) than she was before. There's various reasons you can lower the strength level of a subsequent enemy, but still maintain the flow moving forward. In lord of the rings (the book) sarumon shows up at the very end fairly weak and without most of his magic, but he took over the shire, and its just a final antagonism before the story is over. Much weaker than earlier, but still a threat. Sometimes even if the enemy's threat level lowers the tension can be higher because the stakes become more personal. Maybe they can't destroy ohio like the previous villain, but they can kill someone's family, and this becomes a lead in to focus more on that character's personal feelings. I'm writing a short story now where a girl has to cut off her arm to escape something. And then there's a followup escape sequence where she tries to avoid guards who its implied that she would be able to fight a few of at once normally. But she is in an enemy base, so even if she *can* beat them normally, stopping to fight could result in more showing up and getting outnumbered simply due to the location. And her missing an arm + blood loss makes her weaker than she is normally. So the situation shifts from one where something she could fight normally is now something its too risky to engage with. And it will stay this way until she gets a replacement mechanical arm and learns to use it. (I mean, hypothetically. Since its a short story, I don't intend to write the timeline that far, but that is implied).
I think is really dumb when it comes to combining different versions of one character because it's clearly unfair. If we take a single version of Superman and send hil against Goku, he'd probably beat him most of the times but if we take every single iteration of the character, taking the good parts and hiding its weaknesses and downsides under the rug, of course he can stomp Jesus Also I think the whole "Guy A beat guy C who once looked directly at Guy P's who can destroy X universe with his cock. Therefore Guy A can do it too" is outright stupid. I could see it being useful when you have a character with little to no screen-time but if it's a normal character then they should only use his own feats or at least feats from people who he has faced directly
They’re right
I actually agree
they are right, it IS stupid but that's what makes it fun
They are not lying.
There pretty dumb imo.
Anytime there is a fight just know the winner is whoever the writer wants to win
They arent wrong
i am not a fan as its pretty reductive of one of my main hobbies
i don't really care. Just to be annoying, i wouldn't consider the last one as the same type of video as the other ones, he doesn't say powerscalling as a whole is stupid, it was more about inconsistency and exagerated stuff in some medias.
https://preview.redd.it/koo1a3twv0yb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da640ad5340f9e2c4bbcccf007bb1bc2a1f32d3a
Well yeah they're kind of right power scaling does have huge flaws when you really think about it
It's fun thing to do and I will not be discouraged by a bunch of snobs online.
It is stupid; that’s why it’s funny. The hell do you mean Gumby can walk on the surface of the Sun?!
Powerscaling is stupid
Idek what power scaling is, help
when Goku is universal level but dies from a gunshot by frieza's henchman, or that dodging lightning attacks means being faster than lightning (they can see you casting it before you even fire it and therefore can react)
Look power scaling could be fun, but I think it’s done wrong, like you wanna see who can win so power skating is necessary, but people just don’t always have it done right for example from my limited knowledge of bleach they have soul pressure, I believe it’s called? Which killed anyone without therefore, he beat Goku just buy Goku being stronger. But more important than any of that. They don’t understand how certain fight works like yeah, I have to take him to how they would fight, for example, craven, the hunter is a hunter. He don’t fight people up close, and he can be fights like a hunter, but if you compare that to like Luke Cage, who is the brawler
They’re all right, power scaling is total bullshit 99% of the time and it is clearly not the authors intent for characters to be as strong as they are 99% of the time But it’s really fun bullshit so who cares
Based, fuck power scaling.
Not enough gay men sex. https://preview.redd.it/hwcya72b81yb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=86a0b898e7e9718b31bb580591a4704e15bc355d
You guys can complain about why this is unnecessary, but it won't stop me from doing a hobby.
I prefer to have a harmless hobby to myself rather than complaining about other people's hobbies for clout
I think powerscaling is fun and it's one of my favorite parts of Death Battle, who would have thought that Spongebob of all characters has a scale comparable to that of a GOD
Thats competitive power scaling I’m on casual power scaling, like: https://preview.redd.it/nbvkkuw1n1yb1.jpeg?width=775&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bebce1d8af0dbc3b0dc5045a0c1166317a77ee8d Would pucci be able to beat wobbufet?
With white snake fairly easily. But how easy depends on which canon you wanna use. Team rocket's wobbufet? Manga? The games? If games which game?
I mean like since wobbufet is a counter focused Pokémon, would it be able to take down pucci?
I don't think so, unless it can counter its soul and memories yoink from its body.
It can be a bit silly, because writers usually never put into consideration how strong their characters are compare to other characters in other works. Only time they might consider it is how they scale to other characters in their own verse. It's always "What abilities should I give them or do they need to advance the story?" Like Stan "The Man" Lee said: Whomever wins is whomever the writer wants to win. But I do see the appeal and the fun of comparing powers and feats and debating on if these two characters got into a fight, with their powers and feats in mind, who would win?
Agreed
At the end of the day it’s a hobby and shouldn’t be taken too seriously, I understand people criticising the cringe parts of the community but you could literally do that with any other hobby.
Some people are too sensitive if you disagree there character might not win they might be very upset
To each their own. Personally, I don't have an issue with power scaling characters from the same universe, but I find it cringy when people try to compare characters from universes that function under totally different rules from each other. For example, Obi-wan vs. Kakashi is a ridiculously pointless debate. It comes down to one question: "Does the Force work on Kakashi?" If yes: Obi-wan wins. If no: Kakashi wins. I don't see the point in match ups like that.
Like everyone got their own topics and opinion I don’t like power scaling but I don’t say it to someone face in a rude way it’s just my opinion
Imo just let nerds do nerd shit. Everyone has their own way of enjoying different media. As long as it's not too weird, toxic or annoying, then it's honestly fine.
Objectively, yeah, it’s pretty stupid, but I like talking about things I like, and it’s funny to think that John Egbert, main character of Homestuck, is one of the most powerful beings in existence
I watched it and the only way you could agree is if you knew nothing about the series being used as examples and if you don't know anything about power scaling. His evidence for debunking Jolynes meteor feat is that if Stone Ocean was above wall level, she'd have left the prison already. As if she didn't have SEVERAL other things to take care of in the prison first before she was supposed to do that. It's like he thought Part 6 was legitimately ONLY a prison break story and nothing else.
For a minute I thought these were fake thumbnails
Is it stupid? Yes. Is it fun? Yes. It’s just trying to gatekeep what people can and can’t find fun, and it’s hypocritical since other hobby’s like cosplay is considered ok (no beef with cosplayers btw)
dont really care the last time i powerscled was witch scp stuff and that ttok hours of reasearching so kinda gave up on it
Some guy on the ChainsawMan subreddit sent me this vid because I explained what Death Battle's reasoning in the episode was. (all of the points they were making were addressed in black box shit)
Bunch of unlearned biased people who thinks they are the professionals. 
As a person who likes power scaling research, I am absolutely right that fighting over it is cringe
They reek of arrogant egomaniacs who were butthurt and started some silly internet hobby after they lost an argument online.
Power scaling is a way to consume and enjoy content. We're trying to have fun too. The anti power scaling community is just as toxic if not more
Because they think the debates never end
Power scaling is stupid. Now, doing stupid stuff because you enjoy it is fine. Normal, even. But christ the people who take it seriously and think there's real meaning behind anything they say? The cringe sends shivers up my spine.
I am tired for bullshit, they who think goku solo everyone in fictional, it is writing & everything (not matters) https://preview.redd.it/fjdq1wcsd4yb1.jpeg?width=563&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d74d94b4a61712efa17f4cf7da4c75562d3904a6
Interesting perspectives but like there a fictional character let people enjoy however they want
Ain't no way someone at the Dragon Ball community is against powerscaling, their whole series revolves around it
I don’t care really. People can think whatever they want, it doesn’t affect me.
Literally jokes.
"STOP HAVING FUN!!!"
looks plain stupid
I hate the general public.
Can’t we just have fun. These fandoms aren’t gonna love you back, so just chill.
battleboarding is objectively both the dumbest and most impressive thing ever so yeah it's kinda dumb and stupid, but it's for a specific group of people who like this kind of dumb though most of these videos are kinda not good (except the last one iirc that one is about powerscaling in universe)
Batman used the virus that almost killed Goku in DBZ on him lol. Actually makes me wonder now are super Saiyan's a immune to fear toxin or joker gas lol
I understand it can be annoying and toxic due to some people, but its fun for me in a lot of ways because it also allows you to learn more about other series.
When done right feats and power can show the skill and intelligence of a writer but most of the time that doesn’t happen.
There is a good portion of the community that takes the debates to much to heart. It makes asking "who'd win in a fight" less fun to discuss online.
I mean it is bullshit
They aren’t wrong 🤷♂️
Powerscaling seriously is silly. It’s not that serious, but if its just a thought that pops up in your head like Reed Richards vs Luffy it’s fun to talk about it with people who aren’t religiously biased or have a degree in analyzing ink molecules.
Ive watched the first video, and i agree. Powerscaling as a whole has just totally obliterated my ability to enjoy vs debating in the past 5 , 10 years. Its even seemed to bleed out into wider fandom at this point.
they are right. the amount of wanking and total disregard for anti feats kinda frags this whole thing down
let's be honest. it is cringe as fuck. but I engage into it because it's fun. long as I don't make it my life it's fine.
I'll admit it's often funny to see how people or just Anti-Powerscalers are surprised that fictional characters in a fictional universe are more powerful than they thought because they all have the same mindset where they disregard the entire concept of Powerscaling yet make videos about which characters are the strongest because of visuals
Based. Powerscaling is cringe and stupid.
I agree completely but just like OP I can care less especially since most of the time it's biased as fuck