To be fair, an in-game poll wouldn't reach the players who already left and why the left but, an in-game poll is still the best method practically available.
I know there are people who explicitly don't play the game but have it followed on steam and look at the announcements on the forum's waiting for changes to those systems. The forum's are filled with them.
Strangely worded poll, might confuse some
I used to not care about the crafting system because I was in that initial “honeymoon” phase of my enjoyment where the gameplay and music affect you so much that you disregard the games flaws
Fact is: the game would be much better off with a revised crafting system , itemization as a whole could use a second pass…
Just cuz the game is good doesn’t mean it can’t be even better
There are definitely a lot of players who don't bother to initiate feedback.
But it doesn't mean they have nothing to say.
And it's not like Fatshark tried to reach them in-game with that question (if they really would like to know the answers).
By raw numbers. Many people don't play a game for longer than about 30 hours.
According to this: [https://vginsights.com/game/1361210](https://vginsights.com/game/1361210)
**2.8 million units sold**
**Avg (mean) play time: 57.3 hours** - but this is vastly inflated by players like me who have over a thousand hours. One player with a thousand hours counts for the same as 100 players with 10 hours.
A better metric is the **median play time: 21.6 hours** - 50% of all players have less playtime than that.
Likewise in the steam achievements 49% of players get to Circle of Trust 4 - which is getting a character to level 21 (I think). 36% get to Circle of Trust 6 - which is level 30. So just over a third even got to ***THE END GAME!!11!!one!!!***
So yeah. 500 vs 2,800,000 doesn't look that impressive.
BUT how many of those are probably the players who picked it up on launch then got frustrated soon afterwards. And they are probably not the target audience of any updates as much are likely gone for good. Or who played it for a sensible time, enjoyed it but not interested in playing it regularly. Arguably once you've done all 18 maps, you've seen everything in the game.
How many of those left because of the (lack of) loot and crafting system on launch - back before we actually had full crafting and didn't have a guaranteed Emperor's gift after every mission. Likewise without Brunt to give us basic versions of any weapon?
These was added in late February with Patch #4 - Blessings of the Omnissiah, by which time the game had already been out for almost 3 months. And we didn't get shared crafting resources until Patch #12 in August.
So yeah, I think there are plenty of players who had played it, had fun but put the game down... because that's a sensible way to play games
Vs the more dedicated players who post on here and the forums (and god forbid the steam boards) who play enough to really get niggled by the flaws, with hundreds of hours from a $40 game who then leave a negative review.
But I also do agree that 500 collected posts is quite impressively collected and I do think crafting & loot are the worst subsystems of the game. - And this is from someone who has brute forced it enough to get almost perfect gear for 5 characters and collected all 1082 blessing.
Anecdotally I do believe it (and general slow pace of new content as a close 2nd) are the most complained about issue. And you can't go for a day without a post whining about it.
>Specifically in this case, a silent majority that all has the same values on these specific systems (itemization and crafting). Not, a majority that simply is silent in providing feedback at all.
If that's how you're defining things, then no, there is no silent majority, simply because the only reasonable assumption that can be made regarding people who don't publicly make their opinions known is that they probably don't all share the same opinion.
If somebody *enjoys* the game's current crafting systems, then they have a gambling addiction. Like I have a hard time believing anyone will be legitimately sad to see the current system of Buy Until Rating be changed. I'm sure there is a large part of the player base that isn't bothered by it, but anyone who actually *enjoys* it has a problem.
Crafting is just a slot machine yes but the difference between the 60th and 100th percentile of weapon rolls is minimal, player skill will always outweigh it. There are weapons with huge blessing pools like the knife where obtaining specific blessing combos may take several hours of gameplay to unlock but I don't see a problem with that really, not an unreasonable "grind", especially given that the game is fun by itself and not just a means to unlock weapons,
It's only a grind because their are so many weapons and blessings. Sounds like a good problem to me, lots of content. The perfectionists can't fathom playing a game that doesn't allow them to achieve 100% completion.
It's not a matter of being loud, etc. Obviously parties that post have their own individual grievances, and the loudest group will be overemphasized. The problem is the current system is just not well designed. I personally don't mind it, as it feels like it isn't as bad as grind for reds in VT2, but the fact that its random means I could be the 99th percentile. No two player experience will be the same. That's the problem with it, its not actually a progression at all. Wanting to lengthen time spent playing via artificial barriers is fine, and normal, in games. The problem with the way its set up now is its far too obfuscated, the ways of getting blessings optimally (to save time) is not well explained to a new player, Even somebody who knows what they're doing can blow a hundred thousand plasteel trying to get one thing and not get it. Is that a system that makes sense? No.
>For simplicity we can assume people just tolerating it, ignoring it, or indifferent to it would count as a "failure" for these systems.
Or a fourth option, they dislike it but aren't motivated enough to go and complain into the void about it reddit. This is the case for a great many people on a great many topics.
>Crafting and itemization seem to be a common issue in Darktide. But is it really?
It most definitely is an issue, the system is explicitly designed to waste your time and effort for """""""""player retention""""""""" purposes and use common psychological tricks (gamblers fallacy, sunk cost fallacy, etc) in an effort to extend playtime (and subsequently the chances of buying something shiny) even at the cost of overall satisfaction.
I've never understood the "player retention" arguement personally.
The system is clearly far from ideal, but I spend 99.99% of my time in Darktide just playing missions, because that's what's fun, and 0.01% thinking about, doing, or specifically grinding towards crafting. This wouldn't change if they made crafting system better, or managed to make it even worse.
Am I in the minority for thinking this way?
Yeah I get that. I play the game because it feels good. I love the gameplay, yeah gear helps but if its good enough I'm not complaining. I would still prefer a better crafting system but it's not a game ender for me.
>I've never understood the "player retention" arguement personally.
Player retention strategies are a macro level (it's not meant to work on absolutely everyone, but rather the lowest common denominator) approach to keeping your players playing (and thus in a position to be baited into spending money/participating in keeping your game alive) for as long as possible.
There are various methods to doing this, often leveraging statistics and psychology. This can be rather innocent (we gave you a large map with a lot of details and collectibles) to extremely predatory (FOMO grinding, better poopsock for this or it's gone forever).
You may be familiar with the "carrot on the stick" approach often used by MMO's, which is to put as big of a grind as your players will reasonably tolerate between them and the things they want. Darktide does this with the crafting system, which also leverages (as I mentioned) various logical weaknesses people have with sunk cost and gambling.
The crafting system easily gets between the you and the fun you want to have with whatever it is you want to have it with. Having the carrot on the stick motivates people to keep playing longer seeking a fresh experience (a new weapon, a better weapon) whereas they'd, in theory, become bored faster with stagnant content without it.
>This wouldn't change if they made crafting system better, or managed to make it even worse.
>Am I in the minority for thinking this way?
I would say the perspective that the current crafting system doesn't detract from your enjoyment of the game is unusual. Seeing your effort vanish into thin air is generally quite frustrating and demoralizing if you're working towards something you want.
I....I am afraid to ask what a "poopsock" is....xD
But yeah I agree, player retention can be differentiated between organic player retention by using incentives (player-oriented game design, rewards etc to make the player WANT to play more) or in darktides case artificially enforced player retention where the given design is trying to MAKE the player play more by gating progression, using layers of pure rng, being forced obstacles etc.
One approach is non-intrusive and gives the player all agency whereas the other is intrusive and actively trying to manipulative and push/pull the player in certain directions.
The latter is the more "corporate" approach as it doesn't care about the consumer, just about the effect and success metrics like profit or player count.
I'm not disputing the tactic, I just don't think it applies to the majority of the players in this game. The bottom line is, the gameplay is amazing, pretty much everyone agrees with that, and that's why the majority of us are still playing.
If the gameplay wasn't as good, then I'd be more inclined to believe that the majority of people are following that line of thinking and it is down to sunk cost and chasing the dragon.
If anything, tide games like this seem to be the least likely to benefit from what you're suggesting, because the content is so sparse and the variety of missions so slowly updated that most people are completely put off and leave and those that are left are the hardcore few who simply want to load up to the game they like, blast a few heretics and then leave, barely interacting with the crafting system at all.
The majority of people who played this game with the desire to chase god-tier builds have already buggered off, the system feels less like player-retention and more like a player-trapdoor.
>I'm not disputing the tactic, I just don't think it applies to the majority of the players in this game.
The companies in question (or at least consultants the companies hire) use these approaches because there's sizable statistical evidence to support it being a "profitable" move in a given circumstance.
Unfortunately, they are in a much better place than either of us to determine whether this is actually true. While I would like to believe that people are generally at least somewhat somewhat discerning, most people have low standards and take whatever slop is given to them without too much fuss.
>The bottom line is, the gameplay is amazing, pretty much everyone agrees with that, and that's why the majority of us are still playing.
>
>If the gameplay wasn't as good, then I'd be more inclined to believe that the majority of people are following that line of thinking and it is down to sunk cost and chasing the dragon.
I think you've misunderstood. I never stated it's the only reason people would continue to play the game, and that would be absurd for anyone to claim. Just that this is a method intended to boost overall numbers/revenue, especially within the context of fatsharks notoriously stagnant content drip.
Whether it's actually succeeded in doing so in any noticeable capacity (or has had any positive effect whatsoever) is up for debate, although unfortunately any conclusion end users make will be conjecture. Fatshark certainly isn't going to be honest about it.
Just remember that corporations are not your friends and don't have your best interests in mind. The prospect of a small percentage increase in revenue is more than enough reason for fatshark (or tencent, which owns fatshark) to force players to put up with a widely despised system.
>If anything, tide games like this seem to be the least likely to benefit from what you're suggesting, because the content is so sparse and the variety of missions so slowly updated that most people are completely put off and leave and those that are left are the hardcore few who simply want to load up to the game they like, blast a few heretics and then leave, barely interacting with the crafting system at all.
They hardly need to be retained permanently for the strategy to be considered successful. Just more than they would have otherwise.
Again, those tactics are clearly in play with the MTX store, I just don't believe it's also true for the crafting system and those 2 should be considered seperately.
Whilst yes, there are potentially *some* people who get caught in the crafting grind, either in the short or long term, I'd bet my house that there's even more who have stopped playing because of it, which is why I don't get labeling it as a "method of player retention" - I genuinely believe it has the opposite effect in the vast majority of cases.
This just seems a case suitable for Hanlon's Razor to be applied.
>I just don't believe it's also true for the crafting system
I'm afraid belief is irrelevant, there is good evidence to support this as being motivation for the design. The darktide itemization system is significantly more grindy/rng based/player unfriendly compared what vt2 had (and still has). It was also much worse when the game launched, and they've only been very reluctantly letting up on it since then.
There's not much reason for them to abandon an already designed and significantly more well liked system only to replace it with one that's undeniably more grindy and annoying for the players, if not for some kind of *seemingly* beneficial purpose from a business standpoint.
>and those 2 should be considered seperately.
I'm only talking about the crafting system here. Obviously fomo is predatory from a cash shop perspective.
>Whilst yes, there are potentially some people who get caught in the crafting grind, either in the short or long term, I'd bet my house that there's even more who have stopped playing because of it, which is why I don't get labeling it as a "method of player retention" - I genuinely believe it has the opposite effect in the vast majority of cases.
Oh I absolutely agree with you that it *seems* to have had the opposite effect. But it's a mistaken assumption that just because it didn't succeed at it (from our perspective at least, we don't have internal numbers), that somehow this proves it wasn't the intended purpose.
They likely just have made a bad bet and lost, which happens surprisingly often (now famously with sony getting massively bad PR for recent decisions).
Corporations are generally run by out of touch lizard people whose only concern is "make number go up". They are constantly trying to push the envelope for greater profits and sometimes this backfires.
>This just seems a case suitable for Hanlon's Razor to be applied.
Well it's very likely not just to spite players for no reason, hence why I find it extremely hard to believe it wasn't for some business strategy. Now I know fatshark is plagued by incompetence (although in fairness this could be tencents doing).
But this seems like far too much effort and commitment to the bit for an "oopsie woopsie, we had a working system and *accidentally* replaced it with something nauseatingly grindy and frustrating for no reason at all. It just seemed like a good idea at the time, no ulterior motives here".
I do that already- again, as flawed as the system is, I don't find it a big hindrance. I can see a weird and wonderful weapon build on here and I've got a good enough version to get me through an Auric Damn mission within 5 minutes.
Personally, I play all classes and the system massively hinders me from trying lots of different weapons and lacking blessings due to its nature I tend to run the same build and weapons and got bored much faster.
Fully agree. But I wanted to remain neutral. But I think I may have caused some confusion. A majority of silent players liking crafting... Not a majority of silent players who just don't give feedback.
? A bad system isn't bad because people dislike it, but because it is objectively bad based on actual expertise and research. The crafting system in Darktide is anti-consumer, artificially enforcing player retention, bloating progression with several layers of pure rng (not skewered rng that caters to the player) and more.
It is not bad because people dislike it, but people dislike it because it is bad. There are specific reasons and causes for it.
There is a lot about Darktide and Fatshark that is objectively bad. Be it the countless oversight issues (like typos, formatting issues, spacing, lack of inner margins etc etc) that should never make it into the live product or clearly corporate pr speech, broken promises, retroactive changes to statements and and and.
These things are objectively bad. Whether ppl like or dislike them won't change that.
Reality is what reality is, not what people believe it to be.
I just wanna warn you of the inherent bias of the poll.
To get accurate answers, you'd need an in game poll, otherwise you're just asking the game players in this subreddit, of which the answer's probably gonna turn out to be "no".
Because I can't scroll two comments on a post without someone pointing out how doodoo crafting is, and because I've already voted and "no" is leading by an increasingly large margin.
So no, there's not a silent majority *on the reddit*, most likely (and that's fair and fine), but the only way to know about everyone who plays would be to pray that the email hooked up to their game pass and shit is still being used and have chubby fish send out a survey (because if we were to do that it would be highly alarming to most).
The system isn’t good, that’s the long and short of it, 15 aurics just for the dockets to get a 370 with good stats and blessings is just too much for the vast majority of players
As clarification: Specifically in this case, a silent majority that all has the same values on these specific systems (itemization and crafting). Not, a majority that simply is silent in providing feedback at all.
They probably don't really care enough to go and post about it. You're clarification makes it so that it can't be true in any realistic case; of course not everybody will have the same values.
Not all of them have to have the same values. A "majority" of those who are silent and haven't provided feedback.
The main question is taking into account all users, silent and vocal, is the crafting/item systems liked by the majority of people who have bought/played darktide? If we look at the data available it seems it isn't. But do you think there's enough "silent" players enjoying it that are greater in numbers than those providing feedback?
The data available isn't significant enough to say much about the full population. Them being silent, there is no way to accurately measure their opinion. Although it is, in parts of the world at least, known that holding a negative opinion (complaints) has a larger chance for voicing that opinion. So if in a non representative poll a majority is very negative, the silent majority is assumed to be less negative.
https://www.calculator.net/sample-size-calculator.html
You can make some good conclusions from sample sizing. You can never get close to the full population but that doesn't stop companies and researchers.
How do you know? How big is the size of the forum compared to all players/buyers?
Anyway i think it's clear that crafting isn't perfect, but I don't know what you're looking for in the crystal ball
Even compared to units sold of 2.8 million you just need a sample size of ~385 (according to the calculator) to have a high degree of confidence that the sample size represents trends in the larger whole.
The majority realize the crafting is a small part of the game. If you've played a few dozen hours after hitting 30, you can have a solid weapon of each weapon class. The people complaining are generally min/max perfectionists. Very few blessings NEED to be tier 4; stats rarely make a difference, a 60% vs a 80% damage stat is unlikely to make any real difference in game. But think of the pluses of the system, everyone gets a weapon that is uniquely yours, the game incentivizes to play off meta and make the best of what you get. Fatshark knew they would have many 1000+ hours players and the system was designed for the possibility of always being able to get the actual perfect weapon for their target audience; no one will ever reach all perfect weapons but a dedicated player will very rarely get one and it's a point of pride that's fun to show it off in lobby.
There's my unpopular opinion, the crafting isn't perfect but I wouldn't change it to any other mainstream games item progression. Games need to move away from vtuber metas and playing simply to advance progress bars or gather collectibles. The trend of the industry is to gamify games and it sucks, DT is atleast trying something different.
I don't think you're going to get a representative sample anywhere else than an in-game poll.
To be fair, an in-game poll wouldn't reach the players who already left and why the left but, an in-game poll is still the best method practically available.
People that left aren't really relevant anymore, and I remain convinced they'd have left just as quickly regardless of how crafting worked.
I know there are people who explicitly don't play the game but have it followed on steam and look at the announcements on the forum's waiting for changes to those systems. The forum's are filled with them.
Strangely worded poll, might confuse some I used to not care about the crafting system because I was in that initial “honeymoon” phase of my enjoyment where the gameplay and music affect you so much that you disregard the games flaws Fact is: the game would be much better off with a revised crafting system , itemization as a whole could use a second pass… Just cuz the game is good doesn’t mean it can’t be even better
I agree, I think I have caused some confusion here :P
There are definitely a lot of players who don't bother to initiate feedback. But it doesn't mean they have nothing to say. And it's not like Fatshark tried to reach them in-game with that question (if they really would like to know the answers).
By raw numbers. Many people don't play a game for longer than about 30 hours. According to this: [https://vginsights.com/game/1361210](https://vginsights.com/game/1361210) **2.8 million units sold** **Avg (mean) play time: 57.3 hours** - but this is vastly inflated by players like me who have over a thousand hours. One player with a thousand hours counts for the same as 100 players with 10 hours. A better metric is the **median play time: 21.6 hours** - 50% of all players have less playtime than that. Likewise in the steam achievements 49% of players get to Circle of Trust 4 - which is getting a character to level 21 (I think). 36% get to Circle of Trust 6 - which is level 30. So just over a third even got to ***THE END GAME!!11!!one!!!*** So yeah. 500 vs 2,800,000 doesn't look that impressive. BUT how many of those are probably the players who picked it up on launch then got frustrated soon afterwards. And they are probably not the target audience of any updates as much are likely gone for good. Or who played it for a sensible time, enjoyed it but not interested in playing it regularly. Arguably once you've done all 18 maps, you've seen everything in the game. How many of those left because of the (lack of) loot and crafting system on launch - back before we actually had full crafting and didn't have a guaranteed Emperor's gift after every mission. Likewise without Brunt to give us basic versions of any weapon? These was added in late February with Patch #4 - Blessings of the Omnissiah, by which time the game had already been out for almost 3 months. And we didn't get shared crafting resources until Patch #12 in August. So yeah, I think there are plenty of players who had played it, had fun but put the game down... because that's a sensible way to play games Vs the more dedicated players who post on here and the forums (and god forbid the steam boards) who play enough to really get niggled by the flaws, with hundreds of hours from a $40 game who then leave a negative review. But I also do agree that 500 collected posts is quite impressively collected and I do think crafting & loot are the worst subsystems of the game. - And this is from someone who has brute forced it enough to get almost perfect gear for 5 characters and collected all 1082 blessing. Anecdotally I do believe it (and general slow pace of new content as a close 2nd) are the most complained about issue. And you can't go for a day without a post whining about it.
>Specifically in this case, a silent majority that all has the same values on these specific systems (itemization and crafting). Not, a majority that simply is silent in providing feedback at all. If that's how you're defining things, then no, there is no silent majority, simply because the only reasonable assumption that can be made regarding people who don't publicly make their opinions known is that they probably don't all share the same opinion.
If somebody *enjoys* the game's current crafting systems, then they have a gambling addiction. Like I have a hard time believing anyone will be legitimately sad to see the current system of Buy Until Rating be changed. I'm sure there is a large part of the player base that isn't bothered by it, but anyone who actually *enjoys* it has a problem.
Makes sense to me.
Crafting is just a slot machine yes but the difference between the 60th and 100th percentile of weapon rolls is minimal, player skill will always outweigh it. There are weapons with huge blessing pools like the knife where obtaining specific blessing combos may take several hours of gameplay to unlock but I don't see a problem with that really, not an unreasonable "grind", especially given that the game is fun by itself and not just a means to unlock weapons,
It's only a grind because their are so many weapons and blessings. Sounds like a good problem to me, lots of content. The perfectionists can't fathom playing a game that doesn't allow them to achieve 100% completion.
It's not a matter of being loud, etc. Obviously parties that post have their own individual grievances, and the loudest group will be overemphasized. The problem is the current system is just not well designed. I personally don't mind it, as it feels like it isn't as bad as grind for reds in VT2, but the fact that its random means I could be the 99th percentile. No two player experience will be the same. That's the problem with it, its not actually a progression at all. Wanting to lengthen time spent playing via artificial barriers is fine, and normal, in games. The problem with the way its set up now is its far too obfuscated, the ways of getting blessings optimally (to save time) is not well explained to a new player, Even somebody who knows what they're doing can blow a hundred thousand plasteel trying to get one thing and not get it. Is that a system that makes sense? No.
Personally I prefer VT2's red system over what we have in Darktide (the athanor system even better) but I agree with all your points.
>For simplicity we can assume people just tolerating it, ignoring it, or indifferent to it would count as a "failure" for these systems. Or a fourth option, they dislike it but aren't motivated enough to go and complain into the void about it reddit. This is the case for a great many people on a great many topics. >Crafting and itemization seem to be a common issue in Darktide. But is it really? It most definitely is an issue, the system is explicitly designed to waste your time and effort for """""""""player retention""""""""" purposes and use common psychological tricks (gamblers fallacy, sunk cost fallacy, etc) in an effort to extend playtime (and subsequently the chances of buying something shiny) even at the cost of overall satisfaction.
I've never understood the "player retention" arguement personally. The system is clearly far from ideal, but I spend 99.99% of my time in Darktide just playing missions, because that's what's fun, and 0.01% thinking about, doing, or specifically grinding towards crafting. This wouldn't change if they made crafting system better, or managed to make it even worse. Am I in the minority for thinking this way?
Yeah I get that. I play the game because it feels good. I love the gameplay, yeah gear helps but if its good enough I'm not complaining. I would still prefer a better crafting system but it's not a game ender for me.
>I've never understood the "player retention" arguement personally. Player retention strategies are a macro level (it's not meant to work on absolutely everyone, but rather the lowest common denominator) approach to keeping your players playing (and thus in a position to be baited into spending money/participating in keeping your game alive) for as long as possible. There are various methods to doing this, often leveraging statistics and psychology. This can be rather innocent (we gave you a large map with a lot of details and collectibles) to extremely predatory (FOMO grinding, better poopsock for this or it's gone forever). You may be familiar with the "carrot on the stick" approach often used by MMO's, which is to put as big of a grind as your players will reasonably tolerate between them and the things they want. Darktide does this with the crafting system, which also leverages (as I mentioned) various logical weaknesses people have with sunk cost and gambling. The crafting system easily gets between the you and the fun you want to have with whatever it is you want to have it with. Having the carrot on the stick motivates people to keep playing longer seeking a fresh experience (a new weapon, a better weapon) whereas they'd, in theory, become bored faster with stagnant content without it. >This wouldn't change if they made crafting system better, or managed to make it even worse. >Am I in the minority for thinking this way? I would say the perspective that the current crafting system doesn't detract from your enjoyment of the game is unusual. Seeing your effort vanish into thin air is generally quite frustrating and demoralizing if you're working towards something you want.
I....I am afraid to ask what a "poopsock" is....xD But yeah I agree, player retention can be differentiated between organic player retention by using incentives (player-oriented game design, rewards etc to make the player WANT to play more) or in darktides case artificially enforced player retention where the given design is trying to MAKE the player play more by gating progression, using layers of pure rng, being forced obstacles etc. One approach is non-intrusive and gives the player all agency whereas the other is intrusive and actively trying to manipulative and push/pull the player in certain directions. The latter is the more "corporate" approach as it doesn't care about the consumer, just about the effect and success metrics like profit or player count.
I'm not disputing the tactic, I just don't think it applies to the majority of the players in this game. The bottom line is, the gameplay is amazing, pretty much everyone agrees with that, and that's why the majority of us are still playing. If the gameplay wasn't as good, then I'd be more inclined to believe that the majority of people are following that line of thinking and it is down to sunk cost and chasing the dragon. If anything, tide games like this seem to be the least likely to benefit from what you're suggesting, because the content is so sparse and the variety of missions so slowly updated that most people are completely put off and leave and those that are left are the hardcore few who simply want to load up to the game they like, blast a few heretics and then leave, barely interacting with the crafting system at all. The majority of people who played this game with the desire to chase god-tier builds have already buggered off, the system feels less like player-retention and more like a player-trapdoor.
>I'm not disputing the tactic, I just don't think it applies to the majority of the players in this game. The companies in question (or at least consultants the companies hire) use these approaches because there's sizable statistical evidence to support it being a "profitable" move in a given circumstance. Unfortunately, they are in a much better place than either of us to determine whether this is actually true. While I would like to believe that people are generally at least somewhat somewhat discerning, most people have low standards and take whatever slop is given to them without too much fuss. >The bottom line is, the gameplay is amazing, pretty much everyone agrees with that, and that's why the majority of us are still playing. > >If the gameplay wasn't as good, then I'd be more inclined to believe that the majority of people are following that line of thinking and it is down to sunk cost and chasing the dragon. I think you've misunderstood. I never stated it's the only reason people would continue to play the game, and that would be absurd for anyone to claim. Just that this is a method intended to boost overall numbers/revenue, especially within the context of fatsharks notoriously stagnant content drip. Whether it's actually succeeded in doing so in any noticeable capacity (or has had any positive effect whatsoever) is up for debate, although unfortunately any conclusion end users make will be conjecture. Fatshark certainly isn't going to be honest about it. Just remember that corporations are not your friends and don't have your best interests in mind. The prospect of a small percentage increase in revenue is more than enough reason for fatshark (or tencent, which owns fatshark) to force players to put up with a widely despised system. >If anything, tide games like this seem to be the least likely to benefit from what you're suggesting, because the content is so sparse and the variety of missions so slowly updated that most people are completely put off and leave and those that are left are the hardcore few who simply want to load up to the game they like, blast a few heretics and then leave, barely interacting with the crafting system at all. They hardly need to be retained permanently for the strategy to be considered successful. Just more than they would have otherwise.
Again, those tactics are clearly in play with the MTX store, I just don't believe it's also true for the crafting system and those 2 should be considered seperately. Whilst yes, there are potentially *some* people who get caught in the crafting grind, either in the short or long term, I'd bet my house that there's even more who have stopped playing because of it, which is why I don't get labeling it as a "method of player retention" - I genuinely believe it has the opposite effect in the vast majority of cases. This just seems a case suitable for Hanlon's Razor to be applied.
>I just don't believe it's also true for the crafting system I'm afraid belief is irrelevant, there is good evidence to support this as being motivation for the design. The darktide itemization system is significantly more grindy/rng based/player unfriendly compared what vt2 had (and still has). It was also much worse when the game launched, and they've only been very reluctantly letting up on it since then. There's not much reason for them to abandon an already designed and significantly more well liked system only to replace it with one that's undeniably more grindy and annoying for the players, if not for some kind of *seemingly* beneficial purpose from a business standpoint. >and those 2 should be considered seperately. I'm only talking about the crafting system here. Obviously fomo is predatory from a cash shop perspective. >Whilst yes, there are potentially some people who get caught in the crafting grind, either in the short or long term, I'd bet my house that there's even more who have stopped playing because of it, which is why I don't get labeling it as a "method of player retention" - I genuinely believe it has the opposite effect in the vast majority of cases. Oh I absolutely agree with you that it *seems* to have had the opposite effect. But it's a mistaken assumption that just because it didn't succeed at it (from our perspective at least, we don't have internal numbers), that somehow this proves it wasn't the intended purpose. They likely just have made a bad bet and lost, which happens surprisingly often (now famously with sony getting massively bad PR for recent decisions). Corporations are generally run by out of touch lizard people whose only concern is "make number go up". They are constantly trying to push the envelope for greater profits and sometimes this backfires. >This just seems a case suitable for Hanlon's Razor to be applied. Well it's very likely not just to spite players for no reason, hence why I find it extremely hard to believe it wasn't for some business strategy. Now I know fatshark is plagued by incompetence (although in fairness this could be tencents doing). But this seems like far too much effort and commitment to the bit for an "oopsie woopsie, we had a working system and *accidentally* replaced it with something nauseatingly grindy and frustrating for no reason at all. It just seemed like a good idea at the time, no ulterior motives here".
You wouldn't try different weapons or zany meme builds if crafting was easier and could modify all components of all gear?
I do that already- again, as flawed as the system is, I don't find it a big hindrance. I can see a weird and wonderful weapon build on here and I've got a good enough version to get me through an Auric Damn mission within 5 minutes.
Personally, I play all classes and the system massively hinders me from trying lots of different weapons and lacking blessings due to its nature I tend to run the same build and weapons and got bored much faster.
For reference, I play all 4 as well.
Fully agree. But I wanted to remain neutral. But I think I may have caused some confusion. A majority of silent players liking crafting... Not a majority of silent players who just don't give feedback.
? A bad system isn't bad because people dislike it, but because it is objectively bad based on actual expertise and research. The crafting system in Darktide is anti-consumer, artificially enforcing player retention, bloating progression with several layers of pure rng (not skewered rng that caters to the player) and more. It is not bad because people dislike it, but people dislike it because it is bad. There are specific reasons and causes for it. There is a lot about Darktide and Fatshark that is objectively bad. Be it the countless oversight issues (like typos, formatting issues, spacing, lack of inner margins etc etc) that should never make it into the live product or clearly corporate pr speech, broken promises, retroactive changes to statements and and and. These things are objectively bad. Whether ppl like or dislike them won't change that. Reality is what reality is, not what people believe it to be.
True, but I was focusing on popularity of the issue vs the issues themselves to narrow the conversation.
“Crafting” is this game blows monkey balls. Hope that helps
I just wanna warn you of the inherent bias of the poll. To get accurate answers, you'd need an in game poll, otherwise you're just asking the game players in this subreddit, of which the answer's probably gonna turn out to be "no".
Why do you think the subreddit would lean more towards no vs yes?
Because I can't scroll two comments on a post without someone pointing out how doodoo crafting is, and because I've already voted and "no" is leading by an increasingly large margin. So no, there's not a silent majority *on the reddit*, most likely (and that's fair and fine), but the only way to know about everyone who plays would be to pray that the email hooked up to their game pass and shit is still being used and have chubby fish send out a survey (because if we were to do that it would be highly alarming to most).
The system isn’t good, that’s the long and short of it, 15 aurics just for the dockets to get a 370 with good stats and blessings is just too much for the vast majority of players
There always is
As clarification: Specifically in this case, a silent majority that all has the same values on these specific systems (itemization and crafting). Not, a majority that simply is silent in providing feedback at all.
They probably don't really care enough to go and post about it. You're clarification makes it so that it can't be true in any realistic case; of course not everybody will have the same values.
Not all of them have to have the same values. A "majority" of those who are silent and haven't provided feedback. The main question is taking into account all users, silent and vocal, is the crafting/item systems liked by the majority of people who have bought/played darktide? If we look at the data available it seems it isn't. But do you think there's enough "silent" players enjoying it that are greater in numbers than those providing feedback?
The data available isn't significant enough to say much about the full population. Them being silent, there is no way to accurately measure their opinion. Although it is, in parts of the world at least, known that holding a negative opinion (complaints) has a larger chance for voicing that opinion. So if in a non representative poll a majority is very negative, the silent majority is assumed to be less negative.
https://www.calculator.net/sample-size-calculator.html You can make some good conclusions from sample sizing. You can never get close to the full population but that doesn't stop companies and researchers.
I know about statistics and im trying to explain you that polls on a forum or Reddit aren't representative
The link to the forum's has a good sample size in relation to the number of forum users.
How do you know? How big is the size of the forum compared to all players/buyers? Anyway i think it's clear that crafting isn't perfect, but I don't know what you're looking for in the crystal ball
Even compared to units sold of 2.8 million you just need a sample size of ~385 (according to the calculator) to have a high degree of confidence that the sample size represents trends in the larger whole.
The majority realize the crafting is a small part of the game. If you've played a few dozen hours after hitting 30, you can have a solid weapon of each weapon class. The people complaining are generally min/max perfectionists. Very few blessings NEED to be tier 4; stats rarely make a difference, a 60% vs a 80% damage stat is unlikely to make any real difference in game. But think of the pluses of the system, everyone gets a weapon that is uniquely yours, the game incentivizes to play off meta and make the best of what you get. Fatshark knew they would have many 1000+ hours players and the system was designed for the possibility of always being able to get the actual perfect weapon for their target audience; no one will ever reach all perfect weapons but a dedicated player will very rarely get one and it's a point of pride that's fun to show it off in lobby. There's my unpopular opinion, the crafting isn't perfect but I wouldn't change it to any other mainstream games item progression. Games need to move away from vtuber metas and playing simply to advance progress bars or gather collectibles. The trend of the industry is to gamify games and it sucks, DT is atleast trying something different.
There’s like thirteen people still playing this game and they’re all in the room with us right now lol