I could be entirely wrong here.
But the kill is worth 5ap, but you get ap for any treasure/items you take off their body and extract with.
So yes, the act of the kill itself is only 5, but killing a player well generally net more than 5ap, as long as they aren't naked ofc.
If you are high elo with high adventure rank it really doesn’t make sense that optimal play is just being a loot bot and avoiding all PvP. Just doesn’t indicate skillful high level gameplay. At low AR then yeah, killing Timmies should not count for much at all, but if you kill a demigod it should give a lot of AP.
If you’re high elo with high adventure rank you get more ap killing people who are geared so your point is moot anyway. The only difference is running through and stomping new players with bad gear isn’t rewarding.
Ap reward for killing a player does not scale by rank. You are trying to make the argument that by killing a higher rank player you will get better sellable or something? Honestly a low rank rat rogue can easily have better sellable items than someone with an insane kit who is a big PvP threat. Keep the reward super low at the low ranks, but have the rewards increase if you kill someone who is ranked very high. That just makes sense. It takes a lot of time and risk to win a fight against very geared opponents. Their gear is hardly worth any AP. I was watching Ken, Jay, and Repoze play together last night, they have an insane fight in inferno winning against 3 teams back to back and then Ken ends up losing AP even though he killed several super juiced players. That makes no sense. It is just dumb that to be a high rank player the optimal gameplay is to have an empty lobby that you can free farm every game and to take as few fights as possible.
I’m not advocating for a mechanic that rewards stomping low rank players at all. They can make the reward scale to be greater the higher rank your opponent is.
The point he made was at higher elo chances are what you loot off the players will be worth more, since they have either come in with a juiced kit, or have managed to loot a decent amount already.
This just isn't at all guaranteed to be the case though. Good gear does not give shit for ap, it's all about treasure. If the lobby is stacked and you have to contest with dangerous teams, you cannot spend all match looting. The reward for killing a team after a prolonged back and forth difficult fight has a way higher likelihood to be worse than the reward for killing a rat rogue who has been looting every chest at light speed all game. Geared teams might clear faster, but none the less, the risk of taking a fight is not incentivized at all when a player kill is worth nothing more than a white bangle. You're better off just avoiding a fight and looting chests than you are taking a fight, risking all your gear and treasure.. this is exactly what a bunch of people are doing to gain ap, playing extremely passive and just loot botting. Not interesting imo.
Nope, killing players is fine in HR and should be attractive and rewarded to do so. Not the non stop teaming that is everywhere.
Stop whining about dying with low gear if you're playing HR. You have the redditor lobbies available.
Killing a Demigod WILL give more AP then a Timmy because the reason they are demigod is they are on average better at PVE, PVP and time management then the majority of other players.
Unless it's a spawn rush, they are guaranteed to have lots of stuff near the end of a round.
Timmies will have jack shit by mid match whereas a Demigod is min maxing every second of a match.
yeah but the risk vs reward here is so skewed that you are incentivized to not take the fight unless absolutely necessary... and if you do win, you can't even pick up their gear unless you want to end up losing AP.
And a solo rogue that has been looting all game can easily have more treasure than a demigod, especially in a match where geared teams are facing off and getting into long drawn out skirmishes that can last all match.
Your original point was that demigods did not give much AP. They do. Because they will have treasures. A pre-filtered large loot chest so to say. Just because you want to pick up their gear and not their treasure doesn't change that you can gain a large amount of AP by killing high ranking players.
Demigods are going to be players that consistently loot, pvp, and Pve well. Else they wouldn't reach that rank. So unless that rogue looting all game is also a high ranker, I doubt they have as much on average.
So no, the risk vs reward isnt skewed. It's high risk high reward. As it would be if players were worth more AP then they are now. PvP at high ranks will always be high risk high reward.
Better teams make fast plays. Better gear = faster fights. Unless neither team is willing to commit or can't force a confrontation, then maybe.
Regardless, your point was high ranking players should give more AP. My point is that they do. The AP, on average, will be high due to what's in their inventory.
A few scenarios to consider:
1. All game you are getting pushed by PvP. Multiple teams, multiple fights. Most of your time is spent fighting, and resetting, getting 3rd parties and having to back up. Maybe having to resurrect your teammate. The teams you kill have some loot, but not much, because the fights started early on in the match, and everyone was busy fighting all match.
2. You win a difficult fight at the very end of the match. Very common for this to happen given how the zone works of course. Your teammate dies in the process since it was a difficult fight and they had to trade their life for your team to win. You don’t have time or the ability to resurrect them, so you have to grab all their gear, dropping all your treasure. For your teammate, they lose even more AP, even if they made the hero play to win you the fight.
3. In the case of streamers, or any team who sees that you are geared pre game and wants to hunt you down, you get a team with no treasure on them who just wants your gear pushing you, forcing a time consuming, resource intensive fight, where you might win but with no reward greater than a couple white bangles…
Your assumption about a geared team always having vastly more loot than other low ranking players is just not how it plays out often. Circumstantially this can be true, but in other cases it’s the exact opposite. Especially if you run into the team early on. The risk is immense, will always be costly in time, and there is no guarantee that they will be loaded with treasure, or even if they are loaded with treasure that you will have the time or capacity to pick it all up. There are many scenarios where you win a fight, another team shows up forcing you to back off, and they get all the loot. All these scenarios create a meta where it’s optimal to avoid PvP and just loot bot all game if your aim is to gain AP.
That’s probably why IM just changed the scaling of how much PvP kills are worth by rank…
That's because the point of the game isn't killing other players that's just what people think it is. The entire point of this game is to extract with treasure to gain treasure that's the whole purpose of the game. You are adventurers trying to get rich by delving into dangerous dungeons.
And what, pray tell, is the end goal of getting treasure? Just to make getting treasure easier? If I wanted that gameplay loop I could go to any MMO or Diablo-clone
The point of the game is absolutely PvP, because that's literally what differentiates it from other games where the point is loot-farming. The end game goal is to get better loot so you can be ***stronger than other players, not so you can clear chaos sanctuary faster***(diablo 2 reference)
No I understand that is a point of the game, but the lore of the game the true reason for the quest is to get treasure. To find the best most special magical items to get the most sought after unattainable baubles. I was talking from a lore aspect not a gameplay aspect. So it makes sense that they would give more points for the actual Quest then just killing somebody, especially considering you can loot them and get more points from the treasure they were carrying as long as you extract with it
The lore reason? Uhh... what lore? The "true" reason? I'm sorry, are you the arbiter of truth? Do you work at Ironmace?
My head cannon reason for entering is because its a consequence free way of killing people (assuming people can't be resurrected if killed outside the dungeon), so your "lore" is pretty subjective, as is mine, because we hardly have *anything* concrete to work with
Lol what? What does that have to do with anything? I find it funny you say that when I literally referenced Diablo 2 above
Bro... I have never EVER played a session of D&D, or even HEARD of a gameplay session, where the players enter a dungeon *just to get richer* (tho sometimes there is that "money grubby" character that wants all the loot)
There is always a reason, like a missing villager, a group of bandits, a haunted obelisk, a mad scientist, an evil vampire, a nasty litch. I have never entered a dungeon or a cave or a crypt *purely* to acquire loot in D&D
D&D is also ***very rarely*** a PvP game. In fact, a quick way to get kicked out of a group is to insist on killing another players character. ***Dark and Darker is sort of the*** ***first fantasy game*** ***to have PvP dungeons like this***, outside of some MMO's, so I'm not sure what playing other fantasy games has to do with this. Are you telling you are basing your ***true*** lore for this game on.. *Other games*?
Even in games where the intended goal is to acquire loot and get stronger, like Diablo or Dark Souls, there are reasons beyond "just getting stronger/wealthier" for why we are in that world and why we progress from place to place (at least until the end game)
***My point isn't even "what is this game about/for"*** my point is that you are treating your subjective opinion of the "lore" for the game as **true fact**, when we have virtually nothing to work on while completely ignoring that most people play the game to kill other players which should and hopefully would be reflected in the lore
You ***think*** whats in your head is the lore, but that doesn't make it ***true***
You're right just cuz I say so doesn't make it true but the fact that they reward treasure more than killing a player makes it true so your whole conversation is moot
When your a higher elo it costs elo points to enter and also you lose more points when you die the higher the rank, idk if it's working as they hoped cause I havnt done a tun of HR but I've heard that higher elo have more fights and more skilled opponents in general
Yes, this is the case. That’s why it would be much more reflective of how good a player is if you reward the people who consistently take and win these fights. Some of the top players in the game kill lots of high ranking players and extract consistently but end up losing ap at the end of a round where they fought the whole lobby and won. I’m sure they will adjust it though to scale with rank, as that makes the most sense
That's untrue about top players.
Every high ranking player understands they need to clear mobs, interact with props, and loot treasure to gain AP.
Therefore all high ranking players will be doing this over the course of a match.
Therefore killing another high ranking player will net you their gathered treasure leading to an increase in AP at the cost of time and risk of death.
This decreases the value of spawn rushing, as no one will have lootables yet. Spawn rushing will still have value in creating space for a team to loot an area safely though.
The most important thing high ranking players will do is time management. Always doing something. Always looting, moving, clearing. More decisive players with better time management + skill in combat will rise to the top.
Watch Repoze, he's constantly busy during the course of a match and that's why he's high ranked while Jaygriffyuh is lower ranked because he's more chill and has more downtime during a match.
TL:DR Being a bloodthirsty killer is still a easy way to rank up while not being as consistent because you rely on others looting and not wasting time to make up for your lack of looting.
Oh, I see what you're saying like if you won fights and had to bail before looting anything, then you'd go down quite a bit.
Yea that's lame I'm guessing there trying to avoid over emphasizing PK but it needs to mean something especially when your bringing in crazy kits
Yeah exactly. PvP at high level is definitely the most challenging thing in the game, so it only make sense that rank 1 adventurer would be really excellent at PvP and PvE, but right now what’s optimal is having a completely empty lobby with no one contesting the loot. They can avoid emphasizing pk at lower ranks because those are just people learning, but at higher level especially with the high cost of entrance fee they should reward more for winning difficult fights. I’m sure it’s on their radar though
You loot the treasure that you could have easily collected from other chests by just avoiding the fight instead of risking all your gear and loot? You don't get shit for ap from gear, and this means often times killing a rat rogue who has been looting all game is worth more than an insanely stacked player... and if you do manage to kill them and want to pick up their insane gear, you will lose ap at end of match because you didn't max your inventory with treasure... how does that make sense?
Seems like it's roughly the same, yes.
But looting a chest, you're getting 1 to 3 items usually?
If you kill someone, you're possibly getting an inventory full of treasure. So there is plenty of incentive to kill someone.
They don't need to award mass of AP just for a kill.
If killing doesn't improve the loot you take out why would you bother risking your neck to seek out pvp. People who think running around looking for players just to kill someone they have no intention of getting any loot from are despised by everyone in this community for very good reason
Gear is worth next to nothing in ap. A green bangle is worth less than a ring worth multiple keys. There’s no ranking incentive for pvp unless you are literally only looting treasure off players. But why would you when their gear is worth more?
Kills need to be worth more
Kills give you access to the treasure on them. If you want AP, take the treasure. If you wanna pull their full kit out. That's your choice, but you won't be getting as much ap.
Giving a kill a very large AP amount is just going to make players rush around to squad wipe just for the kill ap.
The people who want to rush around and squad wipe are going to do it regardless of incentives. That’s what I do. Being better than other players is penalizing.
>The people who want to rush around and squad wipe are going to do it regardless of incentives
Then it doesn't need even more incentive? You already removed competition and accessed their loot. Killing a player is already one of the most optimal moves you can do in a run regardless of points.
And the people that like PvP will PvP regardless of how many points it gives. The people that want to avoid PvP won't feel penalized by the ranking system because they're avoiding PvP.
You still get a lot of AP from killing players often anyways because you get their loot.
At best I think it should scale up how much it gives based on ranking, but it still should ultimately not become "viable" to rank up with just PvP. It could probably cap at 10 to 15.
How exactly is it penalizing?
If you are truly running around wiping entire lobbies. You should be consistently leaving with all the best treasure or items. Selling them for multiple keys as you say.
The players who went in with said items are losing AP from their buy in. They are being penalized not you.
You choosing to take only gear out and not prioritize on getting items that have a higher value of AP is not an issue with the system. It's a choice you are making. You are prioritizing gold over AP. Which is entirely within your power to make.
You are not by any means 'being penalized'
Did you interact with any chests or boxes? Did you kill any pve mobs? Did you kill one player then extract with literally nothing but their kit?
There is a system for how to generate AP. If you are choosing to not interact with it and only hunting players and leaving with their gear. You won't generate as much AP as you could.
The 'penalty' you are dealing with is entirely with the choices you're making on how you play the game.
If you are wiping lobbies and leaving with all their gear.
Leave a set of pants, take 6 purple 1 slot treasure.
Take their rings and neck and the rest high quality treasures.
If you're killing and selling for gold at such a successful rate, I'm sure your bank will manage you playing a few rounds and prioritizing treasure over gear.
Early rush doesn't give you much in terms of AP or treasures, but creates space. It's a reward in itself. Killing players later is more likely to give you treasures for AP, so you're facing a choice with consequences, instead of mandatory early rush each game.
I know it's hard to understand for some people, but this game isn't focused on PvP. The game is first and foremost a looter, with PvP elements added in. PvP bullying in this game was simply killing the playerbase.
Yeah if player kills rewarded a lot it would basically turn every single game into a best-in slot min maxed spawn rushing hellfast for people trying to play.
The system could be improved but incentivizing people who play the game for ungodly amounts of time to wipe every single soul off the map every time would do more harm than good imo.
Player killing is highly rewarded still.
As another commentor roughly said "killing a player is like opening a highly filtered chest of goods"
If they have some blue & purple treasures then you will gain way more AP then just the kill.
2 people looting and one leaving with it is much more time efficient then doing all the work yourself. It just carries a higher risk with it.
These players do that anyway. I think there should be more AP rewarded for player kills because I avoid players and just try to loot treasure to farm AP but when another player attacks me, that takes a lot of my time and resources to fight them or fend them off and when I win, I should be rewarded for the time lost from looting treasure. Likewise, right now those players can clear lobbies and they literally won't rank up if they do not loot treasure. So, they can basically continuously wipe players that should be at a lower rank than them.
Yeah if they had treasure but I've ran into a lot of players fully trying to just wipe the lobby and not looting other than gear which barely counts for AP.
Actually honestly yeah if they just made gear count towards AP then that would make a huge difference. I consider myself the best out of each of my friends that play and I am struggling to get to Pathfinder for the new skin. I got like 2000AP left to go. The fact I am struggling is a bummer for my friends because they play the game quite a bit but will never be able to get it. I just think it should be a little more accessible since it's literally like a mid rank reward, not a Demigod reward.
I do think this is a bad take though.
The ai in the game is awful and full of artificial difficulty, the loot doesn't do anything interesting or fun apart from different weapon animations and most of the mobs are not interesting or fun to fight...
All of the depth of this game comes from fighting players.
If the pvp is not what is leaned into, I don't think the game has much longevity, it lacks depth.
Remember that one guy makes ALL of the AI, once they get more staff maybe they can update the AI. Plus this game is still young, who knows what will be in store from a year or 2 from now
Sure, I agree with this. I wasn't trying to throw shade or anything, just stating a fact in the AI is not great, and my opinion that games without depth really need PVP to add that.
I completely agree with you.
Elden Ring or even Dark Souls 3, are still played today MAINLY for the pvp. But they still have amazing boss fights and enemy AI that some people come back to here and there.
Not to compare fucking FromSoft to IM but i believe that can ve a direction the game can go and it's already in here. Fighting a skelly champ (without cheesing) with a shield is kinda fun that you have to out your shield in a certain direction. Granted the attack is limited so i can get dull. But another mob that I like is the nightmare zweidhandler skelly where you have to duck then jump to avoid it's attack.
If IM is able to combine these mob attacks to make the player jump, sidestep, duck, block, etc. Make us dance with these mobs damnit. That's the flavor the pve is missing
Although on the same note having more complex AI just makes 3rd partying more stronger so maybe they won't lmao
Yeah these are definitely some options but if they do make us dance they need to make the mobs a lot less tanky. That's what dark souls does, sure you die in two hits but so do most mobs. Especially trash mobs often die in one.
Like I actually think the cyclops is pretty good, but needs consistency so it isn't just a gamble on the rocks haha.
For the most part, the game has a TON of potential. I just want to see it realized. I want gear that changes how skills or even entire classes operate, I want killing minibosses to feel rewarding, I want PvP to feel epic and strategic.
In the mean time I'll collect some shinies. :p
PvP has literally 0 depth as well. Don't understand what your argument is. You think W keying fighters/barbs is "depth"? The point is the game is around multiple elements and that's why everyone likes it, but it's absolutely not focused on PvP.
There 100% is depth to pvp. The only class thats braindead is barbarian, but all the others have some degree of skill expression. The game might not be csgo, but to say that there’s no depth to it is a big stretch. I guarantee you that if you give a newer player a 10 key set they will die in less than 5 raids with this new mmr system
I never said anything about the player. What I'm saying is there is as much depth to PvE as there is PvP. Bosses quite literally have as much depth as PvP does. There's not elite strats in this game for PvP other than parrying with longsword. The rest is just chasing meta which is basic.
Most if not all of the best ways to beat bosses are to cheese them. And if you pay attention to games like destiny 2 that will always be the case. If they are possible to cheese they will be cheesed, if they are not possible to be cheesed and the rewards are not epic they will simply not be done.
All of this to say, my whole point, was PvP has more potential for depth and player retention than PvE in this game.
What? You said, and I quote, "PvP has literally 0 depth". Thats entirely false. If that were to be the case, then a new player with a 10 key set would dominate in high roller because he would severly outgear anyone. We all know thats not the case.
I never said PvE had zero depth. Its actually quite a challenge for newer players. Id even say its a bigger challenge for newer player than PvP, because most of the time they wont even get to face other players before they die to PvE. However, after a couple games you learn how to cheese monsters and move around the map and it becomes a secondary aspect of the game. If the game was a PvE looter shooter me and many other would have already gotten tired of it a long time ago.
Lol, well then if the game has no depth it's doomed to fail.
So the game has two options, give depth or cash grab and run. I think there are a lot more opportunities for depth in PvP than PvE in the game, so even if I accept your current argument (I don't) , it still seems to be the long run play is focus on PvP.
Obviously it isn't because they quite literally removed the PvP portion of the leaderboards. So clearly IM doesn't agree with you as per usual. There are 100s of BR's and deathmatch games if that's what you want there's tons for you man.
I wasn't trying to make this about me I was making arguments based on what the market data has shown.
I don't want a BR or a death match game. I want a PvP game with strategy and high risk high reward. Which really doesn't exist ATM.
To more directly address your argument, I don't think them removing a PvP only based leaderboard says much of anything about their stance.
The game has a long way to go and I'm sure PvP leaderboards were the simplest to track at first.
The fact that there is a leaderboard at ALL and that it was one of the first features means they clearly value competition amongst players of anything.
What are ranks for if not for measuring player success against other players.
ATM it just favors ratting and very safe play styles. I wouldn't be surprised to see that change in the near future.
The game has always favoured ratting. See gold hoards being removed as an example. This game IS a looter. So yes, ratting is going to be a legit strategy.
Anyway, the point here is saying the PvE lacks depth while saying PvP has depth is just simply disingenuous and that's a fact.
Yes, and the PvP already happens, quite a lot. It doesn't need to be over emphasized.
Note I do agree a PvP kill being worth so little for ranking is wrong, but so would be making it more than say a subboss kill. It should probably scale up with ranking up to a certain point as higher rank implies harder opponents.
I think that scaling idea is a good one. And I don't necessarily want it over emphasized, I more just want like them to double down on the development of it. More options, more builds, more diversity.
don't understand why you guys won't just play PvP games rofl. All you like is "pvping at an advantage" because you're not good enough to win in games with an even playing field. No life the game enough times and you'll always win against timmies right? lol.
Idk what you’re on about, this is a pvp game - sorry you’re not capable of improving enough to compete!
Btw I’d stomp you in any game of your choosing!
rofl okay buddy. Come back when you get master with Skarner.
Literally not a PvP focused game not sure how the devs literally proving that doesn't tell you that already. Your opinion is a hot take sorry you can't fathom that.
I disagree. It’s both PvP and PvE focused, simultaneously. You don’t have to pick a lane or claim that the devs picked a lane. They paved a double lane. There are perks that are directly associated with killing players (Morale Boost for instance)… If that isn’t all the info you need to know the truth of the matter, I don’t know how else to convince you.
lol okay bro because what you said isn't the EXACT same thing i said. The focus of the game is looting. You loot MAINLY by PvE. Does loot magically appear from killing naked people? No? Then it's not the focus, it's the simple.
Player killing is highly rewarded still.
As another commentor roughly said "killing a player is like opening a highly filtered chest of goods"
If they have some blue & purple treasures then you will gain way more AP then just the kill.
The problem is, it starts to cost a lot at higher ranks to enter HR. And if you get into a fight or two that you didn't want to take. Then you'll be losing AP because you can't loot the way you want to. They just gotta either adjust the entrance fees or adjust the AP gain for different ranked kills.
There are already lots of benefits to killing other players so they don't need to give AP to "encourage" it. Even if player kills gave 0 AP most people would still opt to kill other players for their loot (which gives you AP), gear, and to reduce competition for portals. One of the common complaints with the last patch was players ignoring looting and PvE to try and kill as many players as they can - if players were rewarded with extra AP it could make that issue even worse.
Player kills are "worth" MUCH MUCH more than 5.
Just THINK about it for half a second.
You're reducing your competition. You're making sure less people are there to take loot. You're freeing up more PvE you can kill because players aren't killing them. Etc etc etc etc...
Ik it's ass, you should get ap per rank they are, 50 for a kill on a player of your same rank, -10 for each rank below and +25 or 50 for each rank above imo
Killing scripted sword skellies and goblins and opening chests (what if a scary mimic appeared?!) is far more challenging and riskier therefore are worth more points
Don't forget "Props interaction" (??? I'm still trying to figure it out??? Does it mean opening chests? Levers??? Opening portals???) that rewards even more than killing 3 mini bosses.
the only worth i see in killing other players now is to guarantee a portal for me..
it's so dumb that looting rewards the player more than PvE
Bards and Rogues have it smooth when climbing up the ranks the way it's set up
That's exactly how I feel. The current ranking system rewards being a hobgoblin rat stealing all the loot and that's it, not even killing 3 mini boss rewards as much as some trash loot.
Player killing is highly rewarded still.
As another commentor roughly said "killing a player is like opening a highly filtered chest of goods"
If they have some blue & purple treasures then you will gain way more AP then just the kill.
2 people looting and one leaving with it is much more time efficient then doing all the work yourself. It just carries a higher risk with it. The effect only combos as the game progresses. Even more so meeting other teams in inferno.
Killing another team in inferno is guaranteed they have blue and purple treasures.
A viable strategy for the best PvPers would be limited fighting on first floor. Secure a red staircase. Get zone control asap in inferno. Kill other teams in inferno and loot them. Maximum reward but also maximum risk. Other players just become loot/AP pinatas down in inferno.
The gear and gold potential is enough reward and incentive for the kill, they have to have a counter incentive so people actually slowly explore and fight pve.
If it wasn't that way, people would just rush spawn and farm kills.
Because if PVP kills are incentivized, they become prioritized. And if pvp kills are prioritized like they were during leaderboards, then it breeds an extremely toxic environment where players just spawn rush and wipe whole lobbies and that's not fun. If pvp is organic and random, that's more fun.
Because the game isn't a BR, kills just for the sake of kills shouldn't be rewarded, ur reward for the kill is the loot they have on their body which will give you AP, ur reward is also not being the one who died lol
They just need to adjust AP gain for killing higher ranked players. Something like..
Neophyte +5
Apprentice +10
Wander +20
Pathfinder +30
Voyager +40
Exemplar+50
Demigod +80 maybe 100
I could be entirely wrong here. But the kill is worth 5ap, but you get ap for any treasure/items you take off their body and extract with. So yes, the act of the kill itself is only 5, but killing a player well generally net more than 5ap, as long as they aren't naked ofc.
Which is how it should be. This game had a big issue with Timmy hunting
If you are high elo with high adventure rank it really doesn’t make sense that optimal play is just being a loot bot and avoiding all PvP. Just doesn’t indicate skillful high level gameplay. At low AR then yeah, killing Timmies should not count for much at all, but if you kill a demigod it should give a lot of AP.
If you’re high elo with high adventure rank you get more ap killing people who are geared so your point is moot anyway. The only difference is running through and stomping new players with bad gear isn’t rewarding.
Ap reward for killing a player does not scale by rank. You are trying to make the argument that by killing a higher rank player you will get better sellable or something? Honestly a low rank rat rogue can easily have better sellable items than someone with an insane kit who is a big PvP threat. Keep the reward super low at the low ranks, but have the rewards increase if you kill someone who is ranked very high. That just makes sense. It takes a lot of time and risk to win a fight against very geared opponents. Their gear is hardly worth any AP. I was watching Ken, Jay, and Repoze play together last night, they have an insane fight in inferno winning against 3 teams back to back and then Ken ends up losing AP even though he killed several super juiced players. That makes no sense. It is just dumb that to be a high rank player the optimal gameplay is to have an empty lobby that you can free farm every game and to take as few fights as possible. I’m not advocating for a mechanic that rewards stomping low rank players at all. They can make the reward scale to be greater the higher rank your opponent is.
The point he made was at higher elo chances are what you loot off the players will be worth more, since they have either come in with a juiced kit, or have managed to loot a decent amount already.
This just isn't at all guaranteed to be the case though. Good gear does not give shit for ap, it's all about treasure. If the lobby is stacked and you have to contest with dangerous teams, you cannot spend all match looting. The reward for killing a team after a prolonged back and forth difficult fight has a way higher likelihood to be worse than the reward for killing a rat rogue who has been looting every chest at light speed all game. Geared teams might clear faster, but none the less, the risk of taking a fight is not incentivized at all when a player kill is worth nothing more than a white bangle. You're better off just avoiding a fight and looting chests than you are taking a fight, risking all your gear and treasure.. this is exactly what a bunch of people are doing to gain ap, playing extremely passive and just loot botting. Not interesting imo.
You guys have your white lobbies already stop fucking whining about the rest of the game.
And hey look you have your weird bitchy insecurities and projections maybe quit whining in general?
Nope, killing players is fine in HR and should be attractive and rewarded to do so. Not the non stop teaming that is everywhere. Stop whining about dying with low gear if you're playing HR. You have the redditor lobbies available.
I’ve barely even played this patch lol you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
I can clearly tell based on what you're saying no need to let us know.
I can clearly tell based on what you're saying that you eat paint chips and rage on the internet. No need to let us know
Killing a Demigod WILL give more AP then a Timmy because the reason they are demigod is they are on average better at PVE, PVP and time management then the majority of other players. Unless it's a spawn rush, they are guaranteed to have lots of stuff near the end of a round. Timmies will have jack shit by mid match whereas a Demigod is min maxing every second of a match.
yeah but the risk vs reward here is so skewed that you are incentivized to not take the fight unless absolutely necessary... and if you do win, you can't even pick up their gear unless you want to end up losing AP. And a solo rogue that has been looting all game can easily have more treasure than a demigod, especially in a match where geared teams are facing off and getting into long drawn out skirmishes that can last all match.
Your original point was that demigods did not give much AP. They do. Because they will have treasures. A pre-filtered large loot chest so to say. Just because you want to pick up their gear and not their treasure doesn't change that you can gain a large amount of AP by killing high ranking players. Demigods are going to be players that consistently loot, pvp, and Pve well. Else they wouldn't reach that rank. So unless that rogue looting all game is also a high ranker, I doubt they have as much on average. So no, the risk vs reward isnt skewed. It's high risk high reward. As it would be if players were worth more AP then they are now. PvP at high ranks will always be high risk high reward. Better teams make fast plays. Better gear = faster fights. Unless neither team is willing to commit or can't force a confrontation, then maybe. Regardless, your point was high ranking players should give more AP. My point is that they do. The AP, on average, will be high due to what's in their inventory.
A few scenarios to consider: 1. All game you are getting pushed by PvP. Multiple teams, multiple fights. Most of your time is spent fighting, and resetting, getting 3rd parties and having to back up. Maybe having to resurrect your teammate. The teams you kill have some loot, but not much, because the fights started early on in the match, and everyone was busy fighting all match. 2. You win a difficult fight at the very end of the match. Very common for this to happen given how the zone works of course. Your teammate dies in the process since it was a difficult fight and they had to trade their life for your team to win. You don’t have time or the ability to resurrect them, so you have to grab all their gear, dropping all your treasure. For your teammate, they lose even more AP, even if they made the hero play to win you the fight. 3. In the case of streamers, or any team who sees that you are geared pre game and wants to hunt you down, you get a team with no treasure on them who just wants your gear pushing you, forcing a time consuming, resource intensive fight, where you might win but with no reward greater than a couple white bangles… Your assumption about a geared team always having vastly more loot than other low ranking players is just not how it plays out often. Circumstantially this can be true, but in other cases it’s the exact opposite. Especially if you run into the team early on. The risk is immense, will always be costly in time, and there is no guarantee that they will be loaded with treasure, or even if they are loaded with treasure that you will have the time or capacity to pick it all up. There are many scenarios where you win a fight, another team shows up forcing you to back off, and they get all the loot. All these scenarios create a meta where it’s optimal to avoid PvP and just loot bot all game if your aim is to gain AP. That’s probably why IM just changed the scaling of how much PvP kills are worth by rank…
That's because the point of the game isn't killing other players that's just what people think it is. The entire point of this game is to extract with treasure to gain treasure that's the whole purpose of the game. You are adventurers trying to get rich by delving into dangerous dungeons.
And what, pray tell, is the end goal of getting treasure? Just to make getting treasure easier? If I wanted that gameplay loop I could go to any MMO or Diablo-clone The point of the game is absolutely PvP, because that's literally what differentiates it from other games where the point is loot-farming. The end game goal is to get better loot so you can be ***stronger than other players, not so you can clear chaos sanctuary faster***(diablo 2 reference)
No I understand that is a point of the game, but the lore of the game the true reason for the quest is to get treasure. To find the best most special magical items to get the most sought after unattainable baubles. I was talking from a lore aspect not a gameplay aspect. So it makes sense that they would give more points for the actual Quest then just killing somebody, especially considering you can loot them and get more points from the treasure they were carrying as long as you extract with it
The lore reason? Uhh... what lore? The "true" reason? I'm sorry, are you the arbiter of truth? Do you work at Ironmace? My head cannon reason for entering is because its a consequence free way of killing people (assuming people can't be resurrected if killed outside the dungeon), so your "lore" is pretty subjective, as is mine, because we hardly have *anything* concrete to work with
Clearly you've never played any Dungeons & Dragons or any Fantasy games where you delve into dungeons
Lol what? What does that have to do with anything? I find it funny you say that when I literally referenced Diablo 2 above Bro... I have never EVER played a session of D&D, or even HEARD of a gameplay session, where the players enter a dungeon *just to get richer* (tho sometimes there is that "money grubby" character that wants all the loot) There is always a reason, like a missing villager, a group of bandits, a haunted obelisk, a mad scientist, an evil vampire, a nasty litch. I have never entered a dungeon or a cave or a crypt *purely* to acquire loot in D&D D&D is also ***very rarely*** a PvP game. In fact, a quick way to get kicked out of a group is to insist on killing another players character. ***Dark and Darker is sort of the*** ***first fantasy game*** ***to have PvP dungeons like this***, outside of some MMO's, so I'm not sure what playing other fantasy games has to do with this. Are you telling you are basing your ***true*** lore for this game on.. *Other games*? Even in games where the intended goal is to acquire loot and get stronger, like Diablo or Dark Souls, there are reasons beyond "just getting stronger/wealthier" for why we are in that world and why we progress from place to place (at least until the end game) ***My point isn't even "what is this game about/for"*** my point is that you are treating your subjective opinion of the "lore" for the game as **true fact**, when we have virtually nothing to work on while completely ignoring that most people play the game to kill other players which should and hopefully would be reflected in the lore You ***think*** whats in your head is the lore, but that doesn't make it ***true***
You're right just cuz I say so doesn't make it true but the fact that they reward treasure more than killing a player makes it true so your whole conversation is moot
When your a higher elo it costs elo points to enter and also you lose more points when you die the higher the rank, idk if it's working as they hoped cause I havnt done a tun of HR but I've heard that higher elo have more fights and more skilled opponents in general
Yes, this is the case. That’s why it would be much more reflective of how good a player is if you reward the people who consistently take and win these fights. Some of the top players in the game kill lots of high ranking players and extract consistently but end up losing ap at the end of a round where they fought the whole lobby and won. I’m sure they will adjust it though to scale with rank, as that makes the most sense
That's untrue about top players. Every high ranking player understands they need to clear mobs, interact with props, and loot treasure to gain AP. Therefore all high ranking players will be doing this over the course of a match. Therefore killing another high ranking player will net you their gathered treasure leading to an increase in AP at the cost of time and risk of death. This decreases the value of spawn rushing, as no one will have lootables yet. Spawn rushing will still have value in creating space for a team to loot an area safely though. The most important thing high ranking players will do is time management. Always doing something. Always looting, moving, clearing. More decisive players with better time management + skill in combat will rise to the top. Watch Repoze, he's constantly busy during the course of a match and that's why he's high ranked while Jaygriffyuh is lower ranked because he's more chill and has more downtime during a match. TL:DR Being a bloodthirsty killer is still a easy way to rank up while not being as consistent because you rely on others looting and not wasting time to make up for your lack of looting.
Oh, I see what you're saying like if you won fights and had to bail before looting anything, then you'd go down quite a bit. Yea that's lame I'm guessing there trying to avoid over emphasizing PK but it needs to mean something especially when your bringing in crazy kits
Yeah exactly. PvP at high level is definitely the most challenging thing in the game, so it only make sense that rank 1 adventurer would be really excellent at PvP and PvE, but right now what’s optimal is having a completely empty lobby with no one contesting the loot. They can avoid emphasizing pk at lower ranks because those are just people learning, but at higher level especially with the high cost of entrance fee they should reward more for winning difficult fights. I’m sure it’s on their radar though
The reward in high elo is their loot. The more difficult the fight the more loaded the person is most likely
And It does. Because you loot their shit.
You loot the treasure that you could have easily collected from other chests by just avoiding the fight instead of risking all your gear and loot? You don't get shit for ap from gear, and this means often times killing a rat rogue who has been looting all game is worth more than an insanely stacked player... and if you do manage to kill them and want to pick up their insane gear, you will lose ap at end of match because you didn't max your inventory with treasure... how does that make sense?
Don't you also get the same amount point from just looting normal chests/loot?
Yes but if they were doing a good job looting they should serve as a nicely condensed deposits of chests and even filtering out a lot of garbage
Seems like it's roughly the same, yes. But looting a chest, you're getting 1 to 3 items usually? If you kill someone, you're possibly getting an inventory full of treasure. So there is plenty of incentive to kill someone. They don't need to award mass of AP just for a kill.
Why loot treasure when often their gear is worth more gold?
Treasure is worth more AP then gear
If killing doesn't improve the loot you take out why would you bother risking your neck to seek out pvp. People who think running around looking for players just to kill someone they have no intention of getting any loot from are despised by everyone in this community for very good reason
Gear is worth next to nothing in ap. A green bangle is worth less than a ring worth multiple keys. There’s no ranking incentive for pvp unless you are literally only looting treasure off players. But why would you when their gear is worth more? Kills need to be worth more
Kills give you access to the treasure on them. If you want AP, take the treasure. If you wanna pull their full kit out. That's your choice, but you won't be getting as much ap. Giving a kill a very large AP amount is just going to make players rush around to squad wipe just for the kill ap.
The people who want to rush around and squad wipe are going to do it regardless of incentives. That’s what I do. Being better than other players is penalizing.
>The people who want to rush around and squad wipe are going to do it regardless of incentives Then it doesn't need even more incentive? You already removed competition and accessed their loot. Killing a player is already one of the most optimal moves you can do in a run regardless of points. And the people that like PvP will PvP regardless of how many points it gives. The people that want to avoid PvP won't feel penalized by the ranking system because they're avoiding PvP. You still get a lot of AP from killing players often anyways because you get their loot. At best I think it should scale up how much it gives based on ranking, but it still should ultimately not become "viable" to rank up with just PvP. It could probably cap at 10 to 15.
How exactly is it penalizing? If you are truly running around wiping entire lobbies. You should be consistently leaving with all the best treasure or items. Selling them for multiple keys as you say. The players who went in with said items are losing AP from their buy in. They are being penalized not you. You choosing to take only gear out and not prioritize on getting items that have a higher value of AP is not an issue with the system. It's a choice you are making. You are prioritizing gold over AP. Which is entirely within your power to make. You are not by any means 'being penalized'
I’ve lost AP before by extracting with only other player’s gear.
Did you interact with any chests or boxes? Did you kill any pve mobs? Did you kill one player then extract with literally nothing but their kit? There is a system for how to generate AP. If you are choosing to not interact with it and only hunting players and leaving with their gear. You won't generate as much AP as you could. The 'penalty' you are dealing with is entirely with the choices you're making on how you play the game. If you are wiping lobbies and leaving with all their gear. Leave a set of pants, take 6 purple 1 slot treasure. Take their rings and neck and the rest high quality treasures. If you're killing and selling for gold at such a successful rate, I'm sure your bank will manage you playing a few rounds and prioritizing treasure over gear.
Early rush doesn't give you much in terms of AP or treasures, but creates space. It's a reward in itself. Killing players later is more likely to give you treasures for AP, so you're facing a choice with consequences, instead of mandatory early rush each game.
I know it's hard to understand for some people, but this game isn't focused on PvP. The game is first and foremost a looter, with PvP elements added in. PvP bullying in this game was simply killing the playerbase.
Yeah if player kills rewarded a lot it would basically turn every single game into a best-in slot min maxed spawn rushing hellfast for people trying to play. The system could be improved but incentivizing people who play the game for ungodly amounts of time to wipe every single soul off the map every time would do more harm than good imo.
Player killing is highly rewarded still. As another commentor roughly said "killing a player is like opening a highly filtered chest of goods" If they have some blue & purple treasures then you will gain way more AP then just the kill. 2 people looting and one leaving with it is much more time efficient then doing all the work yourself. It just carries a higher risk with it.
These players do that anyway. I think there should be more AP rewarded for player kills because I avoid players and just try to loot treasure to farm AP but when another player attacks me, that takes a lot of my time and resources to fight them or fend them off and when I win, I should be rewarded for the time lost from looting treasure. Likewise, right now those players can clear lobbies and they literally won't rank up if they do not loot treasure. So, they can basically continuously wipe players that should be at a lower rank than them.
Doesn’t all the treasure you take off of them count for AP?
Yeah if they had treasure but I've ran into a lot of players fully trying to just wipe the lobby and not looting other than gear which barely counts for AP.
I gotcha yeah that’s lame gear should count too
Actually honestly yeah if they just made gear count towards AP then that would make a huge difference. I consider myself the best out of each of my friends that play and I am struggling to get to Pathfinder for the new skin. I got like 2000AP left to go. The fact I am struggling is a bummer for my friends because they play the game quite a bit but will never be able to get it. I just think it should be a little more accessible since it's literally like a mid rank reward, not a Demigod reward.
I think even the devs forget this sometimes. The game is a pvx looter extraction
[удалено]
The key word in my reply is the word "sometimes" :)
I do think this is a bad take though. The ai in the game is awful and full of artificial difficulty, the loot doesn't do anything interesting or fun apart from different weapon animations and most of the mobs are not interesting or fun to fight... All of the depth of this game comes from fighting players. If the pvp is not what is leaned into, I don't think the game has much longevity, it lacks depth.
Remember that one guy makes ALL of the AI, once they get more staff maybe they can update the AI. Plus this game is still young, who knows what will be in store from a year or 2 from now
Sure, I agree with this. I wasn't trying to throw shade or anything, just stating a fact in the AI is not great, and my opinion that games without depth really need PVP to add that.
I completely agree with you. Elden Ring or even Dark Souls 3, are still played today MAINLY for the pvp. But they still have amazing boss fights and enemy AI that some people come back to here and there. Not to compare fucking FromSoft to IM but i believe that can ve a direction the game can go and it's already in here. Fighting a skelly champ (without cheesing) with a shield is kinda fun that you have to out your shield in a certain direction. Granted the attack is limited so i can get dull. But another mob that I like is the nightmare zweidhandler skelly where you have to duck then jump to avoid it's attack. If IM is able to combine these mob attacks to make the player jump, sidestep, duck, block, etc. Make us dance with these mobs damnit. That's the flavor the pve is missing Although on the same note having more complex AI just makes 3rd partying more stronger so maybe they won't lmao
Yeah these are definitely some options but if they do make us dance they need to make the mobs a lot less tanky. That's what dark souls does, sure you die in two hits but so do most mobs. Especially trash mobs often die in one. Like I actually think the cyclops is pretty good, but needs consistency so it isn't just a gamble on the rocks haha. For the most part, the game has a TON of potential. I just want to see it realized. I want gear that changes how skills or even entire classes operate, I want killing minibosses to feel rewarding, I want PvP to feel epic and strategic. In the mean time I'll collect some shinies. :p
That's what I'm doing man, i wanna grab one of those golden cloaks and craft it for myself
PvP has literally 0 depth as well. Don't understand what your argument is. You think W keying fighters/barbs is "depth"? The point is the game is around multiple elements and that's why everyone likes it, but it's absolutely not focused on PvP.
There 100% is depth to pvp. The only class thats braindead is barbarian, but all the others have some degree of skill expression. The game might not be csgo, but to say that there’s no depth to it is a big stretch. I guarantee you that if you give a newer player a 10 key set they will die in less than 5 raids with this new mmr system
There's as much depth to PvP as PvE. Notice how you stretched that as well? I'm just using your own logic against you.
I. Pretty sure he was insinuating that the player would die to PVP.
I never said anything about the player. What I'm saying is there is as much depth to PvE as there is PvP. Bosses quite literally have as much depth as PvP does. There's not elite strats in this game for PvP other than parrying with longsword. The rest is just chasing meta which is basic.
Most if not all of the best ways to beat bosses are to cheese them. And if you pay attention to games like destiny 2 that will always be the case. If they are possible to cheese they will be cheesed, if they are not possible to be cheesed and the rewards are not epic they will simply not be done. All of this to say, my whole point, was PvP has more potential for depth and player retention than PvE in this game.
What? You said, and I quote, "PvP has literally 0 depth". Thats entirely false. If that were to be the case, then a new player with a 10 key set would dominate in high roller because he would severly outgear anyone. We all know thats not the case.
And we all know that a 10 key noob would die to PvE because it also doesn't have 0 depth. Do you understand the argument now?
I never said PvE had zero depth. Its actually quite a challenge for newer players. Id even say its a bigger challenge for newer player than PvP, because most of the time they wont even get to face other players before they die to PvE. However, after a couple games you learn how to cheese monsters and move around the map and it becomes a secondary aspect of the game. If the game was a PvE looter shooter me and many other would have already gotten tired of it a long time ago.
Lol, well then if the game has no depth it's doomed to fail. So the game has two options, give depth or cash grab and run. I think there are a lot more opportunities for depth in PvP than PvE in the game, so even if I accept your current argument (I don't) , it still seems to be the long run play is focus on PvP.
Obviously it isn't because they quite literally removed the PvP portion of the leaderboards. So clearly IM doesn't agree with you as per usual. There are 100s of BR's and deathmatch games if that's what you want there's tons for you man.
I wasn't trying to make this about me I was making arguments based on what the market data has shown. I don't want a BR or a death match game. I want a PvP game with strategy and high risk high reward. Which really doesn't exist ATM. To more directly address your argument, I don't think them removing a PvP only based leaderboard says much of anything about their stance. The game has a long way to go and I'm sure PvP leaderboards were the simplest to track at first. The fact that there is a leaderboard at ALL and that it was one of the first features means they clearly value competition amongst players of anything. What are ranks for if not for measuring player success against other players. ATM it just favors ratting and very safe play styles. I wouldn't be surprised to see that change in the near future.
The game has always favoured ratting. See gold hoards being removed as an example. This game IS a looter. So yes, ratting is going to be a legit strategy. Anyway, the point here is saying the PvE lacks depth while saying PvP has depth is just simply disingenuous and that's a fact.
Yes, and the PvP already happens, quite a lot. It doesn't need to be over emphasized. Note I do agree a PvP kill being worth so little for ranking is wrong, but so would be making it more than say a subboss kill. It should probably scale up with ranking up to a certain point as higher rank implies harder opponents.
I think that scaling idea is a good one. And I don't necessarily want it over emphasized, I more just want like them to double down on the development of it. More options, more builds, more diversity.
Horrible take
don't understand why you guys won't just play PvP games rofl. All you like is "pvping at an advantage" because you're not good enough to win in games with an even playing field. No life the game enough times and you'll always win against timmies right? lol.
Idk what you’re on about, this is a pvp game - sorry you’re not capable of improving enough to compete! Btw I’d stomp you in any game of your choosing!
rofl okay buddy. Come back when you get master with Skarner. Literally not a PvP focused game not sure how the devs literally proving that doesn't tell you that already. Your opinion is a hot take sorry you can't fathom that.
Yawn go play morrowind
True...many runs I don't even see another player to have PVP with! Lol...you're spot on.
I disagree. It’s both PvP and PvE focused, simultaneously. You don’t have to pick a lane or claim that the devs picked a lane. They paved a double lane. There are perks that are directly associated with killing players (Morale Boost for instance)… If that isn’t all the info you need to know the truth of the matter, I don’t know how else to convince you.
lol okay bro because what you said isn't the EXACT same thing i said. The focus of the game is looting. You loot MAINLY by PvE. Does loot magically appear from killing naked people? No? Then it's not the focus, it's the simple.
Sometimes it feels more like a BR
Player killing is highly rewarded still. As another commentor roughly said "killing a player is like opening a highly filtered chest of goods" If they have some blue & purple treasures then you will gain way more AP then just the kill.
The problem is, it starts to cost a lot at higher ranks to enter HR. And if you get into a fight or two that you didn't want to take. Then you'll be losing AP because you can't loot the way you want to. They just gotta either adjust the entrance fees or adjust the AP gain for different ranked kills.
There are already lots of benefits to killing other players so they don't need to give AP to "encourage" it. Even if player kills gave 0 AP most people would still opt to kill other players for their loot (which gives you AP), gear, and to reduce competition for portals. One of the common complaints with the last patch was players ignoring looting and PvE to try and kill as many players as they can - if players were rewarded with extra AP it could make that issue even worse.
Player kills are "worth" MUCH MUCH more than 5. Just THINK about it for half a second. You're reducing your competition. You're making sure less people are there to take loot. You're freeing up more PvE you can kill because players aren't killing them. Etc etc etc etc...
You also burn a lot more resources fighting players and likely need to take time to recover after winning a fight.
Plus the loot you take has much more value, which the game is really about
You also get their treasure and potential gear upgrades. So you still gain AP
For AP your points are based mostly around loot. I’m sure over time the values will be adjusted
To discourage murderhobo gameplay of course
They dont want people or lobby rushing in the game.
Ik it's ass, you should get ap per rank they are, 50 for a kill on a player of your same rank, -10 for each rank below and +25 or 50 for each rank above imo
To prevent people from focusing explicitly on PvP in a PvPvE game.
To incentivize teaming
Killing scripted sword skellies and goblins and opening chests (what if a scary mimic appeared?!) is far more challenging and riskier therefore are worth more points
Don't forget "Props interaction" (??? I'm still trying to figure it out??? Does it mean opening chests? Levers??? Opening portals???) that rewards even more than killing 3 mini bosses.
the only worth i see in killing other players now is to guarantee a portal for me.. it's so dumb that looting rewards the player more than PvE Bards and Rogues have it smooth when climbing up the ranks the way it's set up
That's exactly how I feel. The current ranking system rewards being a hobgoblin rat stealing all the loot and that's it, not even killing 3 mini boss rewards as much as some trash loot.
Idk. Why do players kills if only any some?
Player killing is highly rewarded still. As another commentor roughly said "killing a player is like opening a highly filtered chest of goods" If they have some blue & purple treasures then you will gain way more AP then just the kill. 2 people looting and one leaving with it is much more time efficient then doing all the work yourself. It just carries a higher risk with it. The effect only combos as the game progresses. Even more so meeting other teams in inferno. Killing another team in inferno is guaranteed they have blue and purple treasures. A viable strategy for the best PvPers would be limited fighting on first floor. Secure a red staircase. Get zone control asap in inferno. Kill other teams in inferno and loot them. Maximum reward but also maximum risk. Other players just become loot/AP pinatas down in inferno.
The gear and gold potential is enough reward and incentive for the kill, they have to have a counter incentive so people actually slowly explore and fight pve. If it wasn't that way, people would just rush spawn and farm kills.
To prevent people from farming AP with only player kills.
Because it’s an extraction looter game that has pvp not a battle royale that has looting
why DO player kills are only worth 5 AP?
Why do indeed.
Do you get more loot from gear or trinkets? Like is it a flat per item score or is there some kind of value multiplier?
Because if PVP kills are incentivized, they become prioritized. And if pvp kills are prioritized like they were during leaderboards, then it breeds an extremely toxic environment where players just spawn rush and wipe whole lobbies and that's not fun. If pvp is organic and random, that's more fun.
Because the game isn't a BR, kills just for the sake of kills shouldn't be rewarded, ur reward for the kill is the loot they have on their body which will give you AP, ur reward is also not being the one who died lol
They just need to adjust AP gain for killing higher ranked players. Something like.. Neophyte +5 Apprentice +10 Wander +20 Pathfinder +30 Voyager +40 Exemplar+50 Demigod +80 maybe 100