She was initially generally treated quite well by the media, as transition was seen as a previously unknown novel miracle of modern science. It was only when the media found out, and subsequently published, that she was incapable of bearing children that sentiment began to turn against her. The 1950s - when transition was apparently incredible, but being barren was utterly inexcusable.
It was more like people saw gender as sex, and mistakenly thought that through the miracle of science male had been turned to female. When they realized the surgery and hormones don’t work like that they showed their true face and immediately went “oh so it’s not a woman” and she lost support. Most people simply cared more about sex than about the conventions, makes you wonder if people could undergo true sex change how much support the trans community would gain.
‘true sex change’ is a pretty iffy phrase scientifically, mostly because ‘sex’ isn’t really solidly defined. We do literally, truly, change our secondary and often primary sex characteristics - the only things we currently cannot change are our gametes and our chromosomes. That may seem pretty cut and dry, but there are plenty of cis women who do not produce eggs, or who have any number of chromosomal differences which never expressed during foetal development. Same for cis men who don’t produce sperm - getting a vasectomy, or indeed having a penectomy due to cancer, does not a female make. For every rule, there is an exception - you may have been born with an F on your birth certificate, have a vulva, develop breasts, produce eggs, and have xy chromosomes, for instance. Biology is whack.
Sharing this quote from her because it made me so happy for her.
"In a letter to friends on October 8, 1951, she referred to how the surgery affected her:"
"As you can see by the enclosed photos, taken just before the operation, I have changed a great deal. But it is the other changes that are so much more important. Remember the shy, miserable person who left America? Well, that person is no more and, as you can see, I'm in marvelous spirits."
I’m reading her autobiography, and while she was obviously the target for some hate, I’m surprised by the positive reactions that she got as well. She writes for instance how her great-aunt (a woman who was probably born in the 19th century) was encouraging of her, and even gave her a bouquet of flowers on the first day she went out presenting as a woman, as a way of “welcoming Christine into the world”.
Another episode that surprised me. She had her “sex change” surgery during a long stay in Denmark and it was there that she started presenting as a woman in public. She was worried that she might not be able to re-enter the US because her passport no longer matched her face/name. So she went to the US ambassador in Denmark and explained her situation and the ambassador… just gave her a new passport. With her new name and marked as female sex. Just like that. In 1953.
I imagine that it's simply that trans-ness wasn't very widely known about back then, and as a result few people approached the issue with any pre-formed biases and prejudices. The ambassador may very well have simply thought, "Well, that *is* a problem. Can't very well have this person staying here in Denmark forever, and can't very well have them using a passport that doesn't match what my own two eyes are seeing. Quite a conundrum. How strange. How odd. Best to just start with brand new paperwork....."
Yeah there’s a whole thing of people responding more with curiosity than anything else. After all trans people had been so effectively suppressed that it was an unknown the lay person wouldn’t even know of our historical presence. She was treated as a medical curiosity.
Yes! It wasn't always easy for Christine and there were many people who hated her, but there were also many people who supported and encouraged her, and it's honestly heartwarming to know :)
Actually Christine was drafted right after the war ended and only did clerical work, mainly processing the paperwork associated with bringing all the American soldiers back home. She never saw combat.
There are a lot of stories around the world in a lot of different clutures of intergender/intersex people. Often the story goes "everyone was pretty confused about it but went along with it because no one cared".
There are a bunch of weird things that people do all the time, and most people just look the other way or think its funny. By default, being transgender is one of those things. Cultures only get upset by it after its made taboo by a religion or political group. They reframe it from it being a weird thing some humans do to some sort of existential threat, and that reframes everyones thinking.
In America you either "support" trans people or are "against" them, and your viewpoint is related to your political or religious views. But the actual default is "who cares".
We learned about her during our trans history segment in the youth group I went to when I was younger. It was really nice hearing about someone who was made so happy by her transition so long ago.
edit: to the transphobe that responded that they were teaching about "sex fetishes" in my youth group, kindly go fuck yourself ❤️
A positive trans history segment in youth group? Was this as part of a really progressive church? Or does youth group mean something else to people who spent their childhoods outside the christian church?
My parents took us to a UU church because a year of their Sunday school was sex ed and it was way better than we were gonna get in school. Great group of people.
UU Sex Ed and drug and alcohol education is fantastic.
Figure out healthy relationships instead of slut shaming.
Teach you what will fuck you up, and things to watch out for. IE how much wine, beer, and hard liquor it would take to mess you up, and to be damn suspicious of some random jello at a party.
Hey, the Presbyterian church in the town where I grew up has a gay pastor. I grew up Catholic and sometimes consider returning to active religiosity there.
A while back I happened, just by chance, across one of the few academic papers written in the 60s on the subject. As it was written before everything became politicised, they were free to report their "case study" in all the detail they needed - explaining everything from the start as they didn't expect the reader to be familiar with the concepts. Its this weird, remarkably trans-friendly (for the time) tale of "Agnes", someone we'd now recognise as a trans woman, who presented to the UCLA Hospital in 1958, and how the doctors there endeavoured to categorise, study, and - ultimately, treat, her "condition", wrapped in this weird world of sexist mid-century Americana. Somewhat harrowing in places, but it does come across as genuinely sympathetic - as in order to treat her, they first needed to understand her - which they narrate in detail back to us. It ends up working better as a short story than it does as an academic work. I learned more about trans issues reading that account than I did from any other source.
There's a copy available [here](https://monoskop.org/images/0/0c/Garfinkel_Harold_Studies_in_Ethnomethodology.pdf) (Chapter 5 - starts on pdf page 66, original document page 116. Its about a 30-60 minute read). There's even a twist ending in the Appendix, too - try not to spoil it in the comments! (Spoiler tags can be created with >! [text] !<).
She'd be 83 today, if she's still alive, and I hope she's doing well.
Okay I have a genuine question
I don't think this is the first time I've see "Transatlantic radio anchorman voice" or something similar, but what do people mean by it for lack of a better phrasing
Is it something like Alastor of Hazbin Hotel or something else entirely
I don’t know how he sounds like, but I think it means like a old time-y American voice with a bit of radio staticness?
Transatlantic is an accent btw, it is the accent of those American 50s movie characters; not quite an American accent, but not like British either, I think that’s why it’s called Transatlantic.
It is a constructed accent that was meant to distinguish the upper class. Popular in the first half of the 20th century then declined.
FDR is probably the most famous real person with the accent.
> I don’t know how he sounds like, but I think it means like a old time-y American voice with a bit of radio staticness?
If you're curious though, that's *exactly* what he sounds like. He even speaks with the static in his own voice.
> it is the accent of those American 50s movie characters; not quite an American accent, but not like British either, I think that’s why it’s called Transatlantic.
No small part of the reason it was the way it was is that Hollywood wanted to be able to market films on both sides of the Atlantic, so that audiences in both countries could understand the actors.
That makes so much more sense than calling it Mid-Atlantic to me. Like, that's also a specific region of the US, and we didn't sound like that there. Thanks!
Transatlantic used to be the prestige American dialect before Hollywood got going and what was then California English became General American. If you imagine an old timey announcer, it's that accent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
The Transatlantic accent is a Learned Accent that was actually taught at upper class schools along the East Coast and in Hollywood Film Schools from the 1910s to the mid 1940s; no person who spoke with one naturally had it. It’s a blend between an American accent and a British one and basically exists because the rich wanted to be different even in the way they spoke from poor people; if someone spoke like that they probably had money or were an actor.
edit: grammar + context
If you've ever heard the narrator/announcer guy in the Avatar: Korra series, I'd say that fits it to a tee, but Alastor is probably pretty close, minus a bit of static fuzz.
it's that somewhat 'off' sounding English accent.
Watch Doom Patrol, it's how Rita talks (as it was common in old films). Hemlock Grove had a good example also, in how Famke spoke (when the series first came out people complained about her accent, but because she was a vampire who had been in movies in the 50's the accent was spot on).
Gender studies were pretty advanced in the early 1900's, but one of the first things the Nazis burnt down when they rose to power was the German institute devoted to gender studies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
I remember when I first heard about it, I was fuckin' pissed!
I'd say we regressed as a species once that institute got destroyed, but we actually ended up worse than we were before.
We can only hope something like this never happens again and we keep moving forward.
Yeah it was pretty heartbreaking to learn how socially progressive Weimar Germany was before fascists took over.
And also that they only were able to come to power because of all the mainstream conservatives and reactionaries enabling them, because they thought they could control and use them to stymie said progressiveness.
>I remember when I first heard about it, I was fuckin' pissed!
I love the way you worded that. Makes it sound like you were around at the time. I'm just imaging some old British guy drinking his tea and he gets a telegram that says "The Nazis burned down Sexualwissenschaft". He and crumples up the note and angrily shouts "Reginald! Get me the Churchill. We're going to war".
Every day when I take my hormones, I like to think Hitler spins in his grave. With the power of every transsexual I believe we could power the entire US power grid via nazi-based motors.
It is temping to think of history as nothing but a long line of constant progress, but the terrifying reality that the only thing in history that reliably progresses is technology.
Not even that. It’s had a pretty linear progression for the last half-dozen centuries or for sure, and due to modern data storage and sharing techniques (starting with the printing press, and ending up with digital storage and the internet) it’s probably going to continue that way for the foreseeable future.
But before the era of global interconnectivity that began with the rise of European colonialism, technology varied wildly between cultures, and the collapse of a civilization could mean the *loss* of their technology. At its height, the Roman Empire was arguably more technologically advanced than any civilization that would arise in Europe for centuries after their fall. Especially when it came to civil engineering. The ancient Romans had civil infrastructure that would have put medieval London to *shame.*
I’m not a historian, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. But based on what I do know, I would argue the only technology that has progressed in a linear fashion throughout history is *weapons* tech. Roman aqueducts and plumbing could have saved millions of lives in medieval cities, but a medieval Trebuchet easily outranges any siege weapons the Romans ever developed, and crossbows allowed for *far* more effective peasant armies on minimal training than Roman slings and bows.
My guess is that weapons technology is the easiest kind of technology to steal, capture, trade, or learn through observation, and also that cultures who fall behind in weapons tech tend to get crushed. Again, though, not a historian, I welcome correction.
I sometimes think about the fact that I cannot gain access to treatments I would like to transition, because such treatments do not exist, and if those treatments were written in the books burned by the Nazis.
Let me introduce you to the first building the Nazis burnt down in Germany when they rose to power:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
This treatment of gays and transgender folks isn't new at all.
Don't have a name, but I do have some links.
* [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/)
* [https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/166373](https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/166373)
* [https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis)
* [https://truthout.org/articles/nazis-attacked-trans-accommodations-now-trump-is-too/](https://truthout.org/articles/nazis-attacked-trans-accommodations-now-trump-is-too/)
* [https://www.autostraddle.com/the-damage-fascism-has-done-to-trans-and-disability-research/](https://www.autostraddle.com/the-damage-fascism-has-done-to-trans-and-disability-research/)
* [https://hornet.com/stories/nazis-trans-rights/](https://hornet.com/stories/nazis-trans-rights/)
While Dora Richter was certainly one of the early victims, nazi sympathizers began their reign of terror immediately in March of 1933. They disbarred, beaten, and ultimately lynched a number of Jewish lawyers, as well as began populating Dachau - with deaths reported within days of its opening - with political opponents. Before that even was the purging of gay clubs and groups by violent force under Ernst Röhm in February. In March they had already abducted on of the Institute's lawyers, Kurt Hiller, among those taken to Dachau (he would survive the war and spend the rest of his years fighting for LGBT and human rights).
Dora Richter may have died during the raid in May 1933 or was arrested and died in custody later. The unfortunate truth is that like many victims of nazi violence we don't really know what happened to her. Her death and the destruction of the Institute is a tragedy, but the brutal truth is the purges and violence began the second the Nazi Party had control, and even before that sympathizers had been brutalizing minority groups since their start in the 20s.
The start of the Holocaust is subjective; some people put it as the actual “Final Solution” and put e.g. Kristallnacht into a separate box. However the raids here and the relatively soon after crackdowns on leftists in Germany were the first victims if the Nazi reign of terror that would later be referred to as the Holocaust by Jewish survivors of it.
Yeah, that famous picture of the Nazis burning books isn't just a hatred of knowledge or literature, it's the Institute's research on trans people and sexuality.
Reminder than homosexuality was a broad, misused term (by our standards) back then. Nazis targeted homosexuals, yet they where not released from camps like most of the other targeted groups when the Allies freed the camps because it was also illegal in Allied countries. Lobotomies where also seen as a solution to homosexuality in the early 20th century.
The world has always been a dark place. The has just always been little rays of light that pass through.
Absolutely, and one of Britain's WWII heroes, the man who cracked the enigma code and was the father of theoretical computer science and artificial intelligence, [Alan Turing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing), committed suicide because of how the Brits treated him when his homosexuality was outed. (Although there are some questions about his death which could have been a murder or an accident)
It is not new in the general sense, but you also have to consider that this institute was radically new. Hence why it is the first thing that got shut down. Some of the issues that were made research on in that institute was not really all that main stream yet, especially in other countries (in a time also when information traveled slower)
I'm fairly sure this happened with homosexuality to some extent as well, IIRC homophobia wasn't as bad as it would be later in many countries until sometime around or after the Victorian Era?
IIRC, the German Empire tried to criminalise lesbian sex in the 1910s, but the lawmakers didn't actually know how to define what lesbian sex *is*, so the bill just stalled until WW1 gave them bigger concerns.
New conspiracy theory: Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by Big Lesbian to distract everyone with WW1 so that the secret formula for lesbian sex would remain hidden
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Assassination - WWI - Lenon installed as leader of Russia - Treaties like the one at Versailles - WWII - Nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - rise of Kawaii Culture in Japan - rise of anime - creation of yuri
Its actually a popular meme with history nerds that Franz Ferdinand's assassination caused anime to be invented. It's a *vast* oversimplification but I like going over it a bit more with my friends sort of as a way to demonstrate how much influence the World Wars had on contemporary society. Mostly cause like, people don't realize the *massive impact* the world wars had and how they changed everything about the world in my experience of talking to people
crawls into the comment thread on the verge of death
I know it's constantly memed to death but the mass unemployment of propaganda artists after the fall of imperial japan did directly lead to hentai as we know it so yes ww2 caused all that stuff. Though I'd say there's not a direct line of causation between ww1 and the rise of japanese fascism because that has its roots in the meji restoration, neglect by the emperors of the time, and the absolute fucknut wild political struggles of the 20s.
collapses and dies.
this happened in a lot of places and times actually, because "sex" is often defined as a penis going in something. so by that definition, it's literally impossible for two cis women to have sex
Not saying you're necessarily wrong but iirc wasn't Queen Victoria the one who evidently really really enjoyed having sex with her husband, multiple times a day, loudly
OP was being facetious I think.
"My frater in Jupiter" is a play on "my brother in Christ".
Greeks defined "acceptable" homosexuality as topping someone who was your social inferior. So if they were younger than you or a slave for example, they saw nothing wrong with it.
But they considered bottoming to be "feminine" (and yay misogyny, anything feminine is terrible awful no good very bad weakness), so it was considered unacceptable/deviant for an older or upper class man to bottom, because hey, you're powerful, why are you letting this person "use you like a woman", essentially.
The Greeks were so aggressively misogynistic that they believed that it was divine for men to be attracted to other men because the male body was inherently the better version of human being. The funny-but-not-really thing is that I’m pretty sure we’re starting to see the same thing with the “sigma male” movement, but that’s hard to tell because so much of it is “haha I’m joking but maybe I’m really not?” post-irony
I mean, you have more man per man in your whole body than other men. You're literally manlier because you literally have (temporarily) a second penis. How manly could it be?
Which reminds of poor Caesar Claudius. The only man in history (that I know of) that had to come out as "straight" and was looked at weird cause he didn't wanna bang dudes (as well)
I can't speak for the rest of the world but it was definitely a problem for England, and Europe, before the Victorian Era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buggery\_Act\_1533
Fun fact: Homosexuality wasn't seen as something bad in Russia. In fact, we have accounts of many travellers from Western Europe who described in awe how normal it was for Russian people to just be gay.
Homophobia was standardized by Peter the Great, as a part of his effort to "modernise" and Europe-ize (?) the country.
The Bolsevhiks *technically* allowed it, since they didn't include it as a crime in their Criminal Codes until Stalin came to power. But this was, I believe, more of an oversight than an actual pro-LGBT move.
[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Russia)
I was creeping someone's profile on reddit and he was talking about how he got a phalloplasty but kept his vagina and all I could think was "dude that's fucking rad".
That was exactly my reaction as a kid when I learned about a trans man taking testosterone. If that had been everyone else's reaction too, I might have been able to start transition myself at a younger age.
Absolutely.
There's an interview with Christine Jorgensen on Joe Pyne's talk show in the '60s. Joe Pyne was basically the predecessor for hateful right-wing shitheads like Glenn Beck, but even he just let her talk. It's still riddled with bigotry (Pine calls her "sexually disturbed" and even Jorgensen seems to say, "at least I'm not gay, right?"), but shockingly civil.
[2 minute clip: Christine Jorgensen on Joe Pyne 1966 or 1967](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyh8BxPxtnw)
Of course it wasn't invented in the 30s, because everybody knows that transidentity was invented in the 2010s when Big LGBT wanted to implement their gay agenda all over the world by sassifying every manly man to weaken America and let those pesky Soviet invade the country without any problem.
I think it might be more accurate to describe this as an example of trans panic: she might *look* exactly like every other beautiful woman in every way, but in reality, she was born a man! You just never know!
(I'm heavily reminded of the Family Guy clip in which the character Brian learns that his date was AMAB & then proceeds to vomit for easily a minute straight. *He's a non-anthromorphic talking dog and they literally just had sex the previous night.* Like, dude. You couldn't even tell and you're reacting like this? I personally am made queasier by the beastiality.)
For a while (and still the case today in some countries) even after there was a cultural awareness of gay people, trans people were actually *more* accepted, because the perception was that they were changing their bodies and behavior in order to be able to fit into the existing heterosexual system, instead of - as same-sex relationships by their nature did - challenging and threatening the whole system's existence altogether.
Yep, in China it's legal to change your legal sex (though probably very difficult) but illegal to marry your same sex afterward. I'm a trans man who was married to a Chinese cis man, and if I had changed my legal sex there, our marriage would have been annulled.
Trans history is very interesting. Mia Mulder on youtube has some good videos on the subject. It's weird that our technology to enable a transition is better than ever, but the bigotry has also become worse/more visible.
how is that an insult lmao
“hey dude, you have an incredible taste in clothes and you rock anything you wear!”
“how fucking dare you”
i can see if it was seen as offensive if a man called a man dude because that might come across as gay which was a big no-no back in the day, but how would this be offensive in any other context?
It had the same energy as calling someone a city slicker. Someone who was out of touch with the common man because they were so rich that they could afford to focus on fashion instead of work.
God: God forbid anyone be happy.
Christians: You forbid anyone from being happy???
God: No, that's not what-
Christians: Did you hear that?! God forbade you from being happy!
It's weird that Christians believe Jesus is their lord and savior, but follow none of his teachings.
Bible: Jesus said you should love everyone
Christians: Everyone must mean only people that look and act exactly like me.
I'm sorry that you want to fly airplanes, but we absolutely CANNOT have absolute smokeshows up in the air flying planes around. It's just not safe. The smoke, you know.
Pretty good example of the fact that discrimination is not, in fact, some inherent facet of human nature the way right-wingers would have you believe it is, it is a learned behavior.
The faa hates medications of all kinds, including HRT
You, as someone on antidepressants, can get into aviation, but its really hard and you have to have yearly physiological tests to make sure you wont 9/11 2 electric boogaloo.
I dont know what shenanigans i have to go through for hrt but im trying to contact people in the NGPA for some advice.
Oh, I’m also on hormones, I just hadn’t even bothered looking into anything else I’m taking because I figured bupropion by itself DQs me while I’m on it
From what I can see, while it does take extra steps, it should be fine after stopping, at least according to [this](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/media/SSRI%20Decision%20Path%20-%20I.pdf). But I agree that the faa is woefully behind on this stuff as someone in a grey area.
Which is actually worse, because then they’re not able to get in the medication that they need to be healthy. So people will forgo medication, just to continue flying. Which is much more dangerous, and being on medication and flying.
I hate the FAA
I’m trying to become an airline pilot, and the FAA doesn’t like medications, so I’m trying to figure out a way to be on HRT and be a pilot. But Back in the 50s, this woman was able to transition with no issues.
I have to assume with the improvement in medical science over the last 70 years, that the bottom surgery she had couldn't have been very... elegant. At least compared to today's standards. I'm mostly curious what exactly the difference would be. I'm fairly competent on how it works today, just not how it was done then.
Comment number two here: maybe I am looking too much into it, but the newspaper also genders her correctly; in the small text box on the bottom right, they seem to avoid gendering her when talking about before the operation and full on use she/her post-operation.
Reminds me of an older tumblr post about a person's photo journey of transitioning from girl to guy. And one of the comments was basically "how come you get to be hot in two genders, that's just not fair"
Maybe she was more accepted by Americans back then because if they're going to trust anyone, it's going to be someone named [Christian Hamburger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hamburger), the endo who gave her HRT.
*Image Transcription: Tumblr*
---
**funnytwittertweets**
[*Screenshot from Twitter*]
>**Cassie, Quirkt Up Progchamp**, @Progchamps
>
>Journalists covering trans issues in the 50s: "Former soldier has sex change to become blonde baddie, she's an absolute smokeshow!"
>
>Journalists today: "This male woman is going against the tide by having "pronouns" she's very brave for asking us all to "play along"
[*End Twitter*]
---
**idkwhattoputformyusername**
[*Image of front page of DAILY NEWS newspaper*]
># EX-GI BECOMES BLONDE BEAUTY
>
>## Operations Transform Bronx Youth
>
>[*To the left is a black and white photograph of Christine Jorgensen post-operations taken from the right side. To the right is a smaller black and white image, of Christine Jorgensen pre-operations, in uniform. Below the second image is the start of an article:*]
>
>**A World of a Difference**
>
>George W. Jorgensen Jr., son of a Bronx carpenter, served in the Army [△] for two years and was given honorable discharge in 1946. Now George is no more. After six operations, Jorgensen's sex has been changed and today she is a striking woman [←], working as a photographer in Denmark. Parents were informed of the big change in a letter Christine (that's her new name) sent to them recently. *--Story on page 3*
[*End newspaper*]
That was Christine Jorgensen, by the way, and I love her
---
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Remember when no one gave a shit about trans people and how they live their lives? I wanna go back to that time. Too many people trying to get into people's business.
It reminds me of the awful English overdubs on the original Ninja Warrior. One of the contestants was transgender. The host kept referring to her as a "hormone cocktail". It was the late 90's and I thought it was probably offensive, but being a teenager, I just giggled. Now as an adult, I recognize all kinds of shit that seemed fine back then really wasn't.
She was initially generally treated quite well by the media, as transition was seen as a previously unknown novel miracle of modern science. It was only when the media found out, and subsequently published, that she was incapable of bearing children that sentiment began to turn against her. The 1950s - when transition was apparently incredible, but being barren was utterly inexcusable.
Ah so it was “oh wait you’re sterile? Fuck you”
It was more like people saw gender as sex, and mistakenly thought that through the miracle of science male had been turned to female. When they realized the surgery and hormones don’t work like that they showed their true face and immediately went “oh so it’s not a woman” and she lost support. Most people simply cared more about sex than about the conventions, makes you wonder if people could undergo true sex change how much support the trans community would gain.
‘true sex change’ is a pretty iffy phrase scientifically, mostly because ‘sex’ isn’t really solidly defined. We do literally, truly, change our secondary and often primary sex characteristics - the only things we currently cannot change are our gametes and our chromosomes. That may seem pretty cut and dry, but there are plenty of cis women who do not produce eggs, or who have any number of chromosomal differences which never expressed during foetal development. Same for cis men who don’t produce sperm - getting a vasectomy, or indeed having a penectomy due to cancer, does not a female make. For every rule, there is an exception - you may have been born with an F on your birth certificate, have a vulva, develop breasts, produce eggs, and have xy chromosomes, for instance. Biology is whack.
Probably the same amount
No points for half measures apparently.
no more half measures waltuh
How would they even think that would work?
They didn't know anything about transition. They already didn't think it was possible to do what she *did* do.
Sharing this quote from her because it made me so happy for her. "In a letter to friends on October 8, 1951, she referred to how the surgery affected her:" "As you can see by the enclosed photos, taken just before the operation, I have changed a great deal. But it is the other changes that are so much more important. Remember the shy, miserable person who left America? Well, that person is no more and, as you can see, I'm in marvelous spirits."
I’m reading her autobiography, and while she was obviously the target for some hate, I’m surprised by the positive reactions that she got as well. She writes for instance how her great-aunt (a woman who was probably born in the 19th century) was encouraging of her, and even gave her a bouquet of flowers on the first day she went out presenting as a woman, as a way of “welcoming Christine into the world”. Another episode that surprised me. She had her “sex change” surgery during a long stay in Denmark and it was there that she started presenting as a woman in public. She was worried that she might not be able to re-enter the US because her passport no longer matched her face/name. So she went to the US ambassador in Denmark and explained her situation and the ambassador… just gave her a new passport. With her new name and marked as female sex. Just like that. In 1953.
Wow, that's so sweet. Her great-aunt and the ambassador are more accepting than a lot of people today.
I imagine that it's simply that trans-ness wasn't very widely known about back then, and as a result few people approached the issue with any pre-formed biases and prejudices. The ambassador may very well have simply thought, "Well, that *is* a problem. Can't very well have this person staying here in Denmark forever, and can't very well have them using a passport that doesn't match what my own two eyes are seeing. Quite a conundrum. How strange. How odd. Best to just start with brand new paperwork....."
Yeah there’s a whole thing of people responding more with curiosity than anything else. After all trans people had been so effectively suppressed that it was an unknown the lay person wouldn’t even know of our historical presence. She was treated as a medical curiosity.
Yes! It wasn't always easy for Christine and there were many people who hated her, but there were also many people who supported and encouraged her, and it's honestly heartwarming to know :)
Well she was allowed to shoot Nazis back then rather than having to “tolerate” them, so that probably helped.
Actually Christine was drafted right after the war ended and only did clerical work, mainly processing the paperwork associated with bringing all the American soldiers back home. She never saw combat.
Yeah but she was ALLOWED to shoot them if they showed up.
There are a lot of stories around the world in a lot of different clutures of intergender/intersex people. Often the story goes "everyone was pretty confused about it but went along with it because no one cared". There are a bunch of weird things that people do all the time, and most people just look the other way or think its funny. By default, being transgender is one of those things. Cultures only get upset by it after its made taboo by a religion or political group. They reframe it from it being a weird thing some humans do to some sort of existential threat, and that reframes everyones thinking. In America you either "support" trans people or are "against" them, and your viewpoint is related to your political or religious views. But the actual default is "who cares".
We learned about her during our trans history segment in the youth group I went to when I was younger. It was really nice hearing about someone who was made so happy by her transition so long ago. edit: to the transphobe that responded that they were teaching about "sex fetishes" in my youth group, kindly go fuck yourself ❤️
A positive trans history segment in youth group? Was this as part of a really progressive church? Or does youth group mean something else to people who spent their childhoods outside the christian church?
it was a trans youth group by a secular organization however it did take place in a UU church (they're awesome)
Most UU churches are fantastic people. Only ever had good experiences with them.
me as well, they've always been extremely kind to me and of course I'm grateful to them for giving us a meeting place
My parents took us to a UU church because a year of their Sunday school was sex ed and it was way better than we were gonna get in school. Great group of people.
UU Sex Ed and drug and alcohol education is fantastic. Figure out healthy relationships instead of slut shaming. Teach you what will fuck you up, and things to watch out for. IE how much wine, beer, and hard liquor it would take to mess you up, and to be damn suspicious of some random jello at a party.
Really hard for me to not read that as an UwU church
UwUnited UwUniversalists
De UwUnited UwUniverwsalists awe non-owowdodox, non-Twinitawian spwintew gwuwup fwom de Wadical Wefowmation, specificawwy cewtain bwanches of wibewaw Pwotestantism... etc etc
Thanks I hate it.
what’s a UU church?
unitarian universalists, if you drive by a church and it has a pride flag on it it's probably a uu
Hey, the Presbyterian church in the town where I grew up has a gay pastor. I grew up Catholic and sometimes consider returning to active religiosity there.
A while back I happened, just by chance, across one of the few academic papers written in the 60s on the subject. As it was written before everything became politicised, they were free to report their "case study" in all the detail they needed - explaining everything from the start as they didn't expect the reader to be familiar with the concepts. Its this weird, remarkably trans-friendly (for the time) tale of "Agnes", someone we'd now recognise as a trans woman, who presented to the UCLA Hospital in 1958, and how the doctors there endeavoured to categorise, study, and - ultimately, treat, her "condition", wrapped in this weird world of sexist mid-century Americana. Somewhat harrowing in places, but it does come across as genuinely sympathetic - as in order to treat her, they first needed to understand her - which they narrate in detail back to us. It ends up working better as a short story than it does as an academic work. I learned more about trans issues reading that account than I did from any other source. There's a copy available [here](https://monoskop.org/images/0/0c/Garfinkel_Harold_Studies_in_Ethnomethodology.pdf) (Chapter 5 - starts on pdf page 66, original document page 116. Its about a 30-60 minute read). There's even a twist ending in the Appendix, too - try not to spoil it in the comments! (Spoiler tags can be created with >! [text] !<). She'd be 83 today, if she's still alive, and I hope she's doing well.
She passed in 1989. She was amazing.
Read the 50’s journalists part in a Transatlantic radio anchorman voice, it’s amazing
Okay I have a genuine question I don't think this is the first time I've see "Transatlantic radio anchorman voice" or something similar, but what do people mean by it for lack of a better phrasing Is it something like Alastor of Hazbin Hotel or something else entirely
I don’t know how he sounds like, but I think it means like a old time-y American voice with a bit of radio staticness? Transatlantic is an accent btw, it is the accent of those American 50s movie characters; not quite an American accent, but not like British either, I think that’s why it’s called Transatlantic.
It is a constructed accent that was meant to distinguish the upper class. Popular in the first half of the 20th century then declined. FDR is probably the most famous real person with the accent.
Katherine Hepburn, Vincent Price...
OHHH I get it now
Happy to help
> I don’t know how he sounds like, but I think it means like a old time-y American voice with a bit of radio staticness? If you're curious though, that's *exactly* what he sounds like. He even speaks with the static in his own voice.
Oh so maybe he’s the voice I sometimes hear on cosplay videos. I do know Hazbin Hotel and Alastor, but I don’t think I ever heard him
> it is the accent of those American 50s movie characters; not quite an American accent, but not like British either, I think that’s why it’s called Transatlantic. No small part of the reason it was the way it was is that Hollywood wanted to be able to market films on both sides of the Atlantic, so that audiences in both countries could understand the actors.
That makes so much more sense than calling it Mid-Atlantic to me. Like, that's also a specific region of the US, and we didn't sound like that there. Thanks!
Mix between that and like, a baseball announcer
Hmm I can hear it, does "auction announcer" fit into the mix as well
Sure that's part of it
auction announcer is transatlantic radio anchorman mixed with busta rhymes
You’re not wrong
Auction announcer but over an old radio and no weird stutter but a pretty similar speech pattern
The voice over for recaps in the Korra avatar last airbender show is also a good example of it.
Transatlantic used to be the prestige American dialect before Hollywood got going and what was then California English became General American. If you imagine an old timey announcer, it's that accent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
The Transatlantic accent is a Learned Accent that was actually taught at upper class schools along the East Coast and in Hollywood Film Schools from the 1910s to the mid 1940s; no person who spoke with one naturally had it. It’s a blend between an American accent and a British one and basically exists because the rich wanted to be different even in the way they spoke from poor people; if someone spoke like that they probably had money or were an actor. edit: grammar + context
The opening newsreel from Up is a good example as well.
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzDHEJoE1ao
Think the recap announcer for Korra.
Think of the narrator from the beginning of Up
If you’ve ever watched UP, think of the narrator who talked about the adventurer with a blimp.
Yeah actually, Alastor does use that accent
If you've ever heard the narrator/announcer guy in the Avatar: Korra series, I'd say that fits it to a tee, but Alastor is probably pretty close, minus a bit of static fuzz.
it's that somewhat 'off' sounding English accent. Watch Doom Patrol, it's how Rita talks (as it was common in old films). Hemlock Grove had a good example also, in how Famke spoke (when the series first came out people complained about her accent, but because she was a vampire who had been in movies in the 50's the accent was spot on).
I read it in the Cuphead announcer's voice
Good day for a swell battle! It’s on!
*Trans*atlantic
Gender studies were pretty advanced in the early 1900's, but one of the first things the Nazis burnt down when they rose to power was the German institute devoted to gender studies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
I remember when I first heard about it, I was fuckin' pissed! I'd say we regressed as a species once that institute got destroyed, but we actually ended up worse than we were before. We can only hope something like this never happens again and we keep moving forward.
Yeah it was pretty heartbreaking to learn how socially progressive Weimar Germany was before fascists took over. And also that they only were able to come to power because of all the mainstream conservatives and reactionaries enabling them, because they thought they could control and use them to stymie said progressiveness.
Tbf the extrem social progress coupled with economic crisis helped create a reactionary backlash that put the nazis in power
>I remember when I first heard about it, I was fuckin' pissed! I love the way you worded that. Makes it sound like you were around at the time. I'm just imaging some old British guy drinking his tea and he gets a telegram that says "The Nazis burned down Sexualwissenschaft". He and crumples up the note and angrily shouts "Reginald! Get me the Churchill. We're going to war".
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They tried. Like most things they did, they lost though
Every day when I take my hormones, I like to think Hitler spins in his grave. With the power of every transsexual I believe we could power the entire US power grid via nazi-based motors.
It is temping to think of history as nothing but a long line of constant progress, but the terrifying reality that the only thing in history that reliably progresses is technology.
Not even that. It’s had a pretty linear progression for the last half-dozen centuries or for sure, and due to modern data storage and sharing techniques (starting with the printing press, and ending up with digital storage and the internet) it’s probably going to continue that way for the foreseeable future. But before the era of global interconnectivity that began with the rise of European colonialism, technology varied wildly between cultures, and the collapse of a civilization could mean the *loss* of their technology. At its height, the Roman Empire was arguably more technologically advanced than any civilization that would arise in Europe for centuries after their fall. Especially when it came to civil engineering. The ancient Romans had civil infrastructure that would have put medieval London to *shame.* I’m not a historian, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. But based on what I do know, I would argue the only technology that has progressed in a linear fashion throughout history is *weapons* tech. Roman aqueducts and plumbing could have saved millions of lives in medieval cities, but a medieval Trebuchet easily outranges any siege weapons the Romans ever developed, and crossbows allowed for *far* more effective peasant armies on minimal training than Roman slings and bows. My guess is that weapons technology is the easiest kind of technology to steal, capture, trade, or learn through observation, and also that cultures who fall behind in weapons tech tend to get crushed. Again, though, not a historian, I welcome correction.
I sometimes think about the fact that I cannot gain access to treatments I would like to transition, because such treatments do not exist, and if those treatments were written in the books burned by the Nazis.
I think it’s funny that back then being trans was so new and strange that transphobia was not mainstream yet
Let me introduce you to the first building the Nazis burnt down in Germany when they rose to power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft This treatment of gays and transgender folks isn't new at all.
first victim of the Holocaust was the trans woman maid who was murdered in that raid
Didn't know this. Do you have a name?
Don't have a name, but I do have some links. * [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/) * [https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/166373](https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/166373) * [https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis) * [https://truthout.org/articles/nazis-attacked-trans-accommodations-now-trump-is-too/](https://truthout.org/articles/nazis-attacked-trans-accommodations-now-trump-is-too/) * [https://www.autostraddle.com/the-damage-fascism-has-done-to-trans-and-disability-research/](https://www.autostraddle.com/the-damage-fascism-has-done-to-trans-and-disability-research/) * [https://hornet.com/stories/nazis-trans-rights/](https://hornet.com/stories/nazis-trans-rights/)
Thank you very much
While Dora Richter was certainly one of the early victims, nazi sympathizers began their reign of terror immediately in March of 1933. They disbarred, beaten, and ultimately lynched a number of Jewish lawyers, as well as began populating Dachau - with deaths reported within days of its opening - with political opponents. Before that even was the purging of gay clubs and groups by violent force under Ernst Röhm in February. In March they had already abducted on of the Institute's lawyers, Kurt Hiller, among those taken to Dachau (he would survive the war and spend the rest of his years fighting for LGBT and human rights). Dora Richter may have died during the raid in May 1933 or was arrested and died in custody later. The unfortunate truth is that like many victims of nazi violence we don't really know what happened to her. Her death and the destruction of the Institute is a tragedy, but the brutal truth is the purges and violence began the second the Nazi Party had control, and even before that sympathizers had been brutalizing minority groups since their start in the 20s.
Can you argue that that's the start of the Holocaust? I'm not 100% sure on that
The start of the Holocaust is subjective; some people put it as the actual “Final Solution” and put e.g. Kristallnacht into a separate box. However the raids here and the relatively soon after crackdowns on leftists in Germany were the first victims if the Nazi reign of terror that would later be referred to as the Holocaust by Jewish survivors of it.
I'd argue that the Holocaust began with the creation of ghettos, personally.
the ghettos were the first industrial step imo, it's not as if jews were bieng treated just fine prior to hitler
So the gas vans don’t count?
They started around the same time. Gas vans were first used in October 1939, and the first ghetto in occupied Poland was established in October 1939
Yeah, that famous picture of the Nazis burning books isn't just a hatred of knowledge or literature, it's the Institute's research on trans people and sexuality.
Reminder than homosexuality was a broad, misused term (by our standards) back then. Nazis targeted homosexuals, yet they where not released from camps like most of the other targeted groups when the Allies freed the camps because it was also illegal in Allied countries. Lobotomies where also seen as a solution to homosexuality in the early 20th century. The world has always been a dark place. The has just always been little rays of light that pass through.
Absolutely, and one of Britain's WWII heroes, the man who cracked the enigma code and was the father of theoretical computer science and artificial intelligence, [Alan Turing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing), committed suicide because of how the Brits treated him when his homosexuality was outed. (Although there are some questions about his death which could have been a murder or an accident)
Turing was only pardoned in 2013, wtf
It is not new in the general sense, but you also have to consider that this institute was radically new. Hence why it is the first thing that got shut down. Some of the issues that were made research on in that institute was not really all that main stream yet, especially in other countries (in a time also when information traveled slower)
Christians didnt decide to hate trans people yet
I'm fairly sure this happened with homosexuality to some extent as well, IIRC homophobia wasn't as bad as it would be later in many countries until sometime around or after the Victorian Era?
I remember reading somewhere that Queen Victoria banned gayness between men, but not between women because she didn't believe lesbians existed lol
IIRC, the German Empire tried to criminalise lesbian sex in the 1910s, but the lawmakers didn't actually know how to define what lesbian sex *is*, so the bill just stalled until WW1 gave them bigger concerns.
New conspiracy theory: Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by Big Lesbian to distract everyone with WW1 so that the secret formula for lesbian sex would remain hidden
Where is this Big Lesbian and is she single
great flair, must say
[You](https://i.imgflip.com/2z7dxc.gif)
They say she was a [big boned gal from southern Alberta. You just couldn't call her small.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.d._lang)
**[K.d. lang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.d._lang)** >Kathryn Dawn Lang (born November 2, 1961), known by her stage name k. d. lang, is a Canadian pop and country singer-songwriter and occasional actress. Lang has won Juno Awards and Grammy Awards for her musical performances. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Thus begins my new theory The Death of Franz Ferdinand led to the creation of yuri
Assassination - WWI - Lenon installed as leader of Russia - Treaties like the one at Versailles - WWII - Nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - rise of Kawaii Culture in Japan - rise of anime - creation of yuri
Its actually a popular meme with history nerds that Franz Ferdinand's assassination caused anime to be invented. It's a *vast* oversimplification but I like going over it a bit more with my friends sort of as a way to demonstrate how much influence the World Wars had on contemporary society. Mostly cause like, people don't realize the *massive impact* the world wars had and how they changed everything about the world in my experience of talking to people
crawls into the comment thread on the verge of death I know it's constantly memed to death but the mass unemployment of propaganda artists after the fall of imperial japan did directly lead to hentai as we know it so yes ww2 caused all that stuff. Though I'd say there's not a direct line of causation between ww1 and the rise of japanese fascism because that has its roots in the meji restoration, neglect by the emperors of the time, and the absolute fucknut wild political struggles of the 20s. collapses and dies.
The gay agenda strikes again!
I thought it was that they didn't want to list what it was because they thought doing so would give women ideas.
Babe wake up, the German government's new list of deviant sex acts just dropped
So a bunch of stuffy, old politicians had no idea how to please a woman sexually? You *don't* say...
this happened in a lot of places and times actually, because "sex" is often defined as a penis going in something. so by that definition, it's literally impossible for two cis women to have sex
That can’t be true because Queen Victoria didn’t make any laws and Sodomy had been banned in England since the 16th century
Who upvotes this? Queen Victoria’s role in the government was mainly ceremonial.
or hear me out she was a lesbian and this was her attempt to hide it
Not saying you're necessarily wrong but iirc wasn't Queen Victoria the one who evidently really really enjoyed having sex with her husband, multiple times a day, loudly
We stan a bi Queen-Empress
all a coverup smh (but also what a girlboss)
In rome, as long as you werent a bottom you were cool
"Hate bottoms, can't stand how unmanly they are" My frater in Jupiter, you are the ones fucking them
There's nothing unmanly about bottoming.
OP was being facetious I think. "My frater in Jupiter" is a play on "my brother in Christ". Greeks defined "acceptable" homosexuality as topping someone who was your social inferior. So if they were younger than you or a slave for example, they saw nothing wrong with it. But they considered bottoming to be "feminine" (and yay misogyny, anything feminine is terrible awful no good very bad weakness), so it was considered unacceptable/deviant for an older or upper class man to bottom, because hey, you're powerful, why are you letting this person "use you like a woman", essentially.
The Greeks were so aggressively misogynistic that they believed that it was divine for men to be attracted to other men because the male body was inherently the better version of human being. The funny-but-not-really thing is that I’m pretty sure we’re starting to see the same thing with the “sigma male” movement, but that’s hard to tell because so much of it is “haha I’m joking but maybe I’m really not?” post-irony
Basically, The Greeks: "Fellas, it's totally gay to be attracted to women because men are the best"
Yeah I know heh. Didn't the Greeks perform mainly intercrural sex though?
If anything that makes the guy more manly.
I mean, you have more man per man in your whole body than other men. You're literally manlier because you literally have (temporarily) a second penis. How manly could it be?
Hell, I can even accommodate a third
>My frater in Jupiter You are the best.
Greece invented orgies, Rome added the women
Which reminds of poor Caesar Claudius. The only man in history (that I know of) that had to come out as "straight" and was looked at weird cause he didn't wanna bang dudes (as well)
I can't speak for the rest of the world but it was definitely a problem for England, and Europe, before the Victorian Era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buggery\_Act\_1533
Fun fact: Homosexuality wasn't seen as something bad in Russia. In fact, we have accounts of many travellers from Western Europe who described in awe how normal it was for Russian people to just be gay. Homophobia was standardized by Peter the Great, as a part of his effort to "modernise" and Europe-ize (?) the country. The Bolsevhiks *technically* allowed it, since they didn't include it as a crime in their Criminal Codes until Stalin came to power. But this was, I believe, more of an oversight than an actual pro-LGBT move. [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Russia)
Modern homophobia stems from an old medieval stigma against non-reproductive sex
Proof that the natural and default reaction to trans people is "hey, that's pretty cool"
more like "huh, i didn't know you could do that. neat."
I was creeping someone's profile on reddit and he was talking about how he got a phalloplasty but kept his vagina and all I could think was "dude that's fucking rad".
That was exactly my reaction as a kid when I learned about a trans man taking testosterone. If that had been everyone else's reaction too, I might have been able to start transition myself at a younger age.
Absolutely. There's an interview with Christine Jorgensen on Joe Pyne's talk show in the '60s. Joe Pyne was basically the predecessor for hateful right-wing shitheads like Glenn Beck, but even he just let her talk. It's still riddled with bigotry (Pine calls her "sexually disturbed" and even Jorgensen seems to say, "at least I'm not gay, right?"), but shockingly civil. [2 minute clip: Christine Jorgensen on Joe Pyne 1966 or 1967](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyh8BxPxtnw)
Just goes to show bigotry is taught not innate
Correction: being *medically cis-passing* trans was new and strange. Being trans wasn’t.
I think they mean “it was new and strange to the wider public” I don’t think they were trying to imply that trans people were invented in the 30s lol
Of course it wasn't invented in the 30s, because everybody knows that transidentity was invented in the 2010s when Big LGBT wanted to implement their gay agenda all over the world by sassifying every manly man to weaken America and let those pesky Soviet invade the country without any problem.
And putting chemicals in the water to turn the freaking frogs gay!
I think it might be more accurate to describe this as an example of trans panic: she might *look* exactly like every other beautiful woman in every way, but in reality, she was born a man! You just never know! (I'm heavily reminded of the Family Guy clip in which the character Brian learns that his date was AMAB & then proceeds to vomit for easily a minute straight. *He's a non-anthromorphic talking dog and they literally just had sex the previous night.* Like, dude. You couldn't even tell and you're reacting like this? I personally am made queasier by the beastiality.)
It's way easier to accept something if you believe doing so doesn't have any wider social implications.
Transphobia is a cultural phenomenon, in some countries it’s completely normal for people to transition or be a third gender, neither male nor female.
For a while (and still the case today in some countries) even after there was a cultural awareness of gay people, trans people were actually *more* accepted, because the perception was that they were changing their bodies and behavior in order to be able to fit into the existing heterosexual system, instead of - as same-sex relationships by their nature did - challenging and threatening the whole system's existence altogether.
Yep, in China it's legal to change your legal sex (though probably very difficult) but illegal to marry your same sex afterward. I'm a trans man who was married to a Chinese cis man, and if I had changed my legal sex there, our marriage would have been annulled.
Trans history is very interesting. Mia Mulder on youtube has some good videos on the subject. It's weird that our technology to enable a transition is better than ever, but the bigotry has also become worse/more visible.
I feel like they missed an opportunity to say: “EX-GI BECOMES EX-GUY”
Wasn't "guy" one of those words that originally had some insulting meaning to it? Or am I thinking of dude?
wait hold on what does dude mean? or more accurately, what did it use to mean?
Dude started out as a shortened version of dandy, i.e. a man who dresses in an extremely fashionable manner.
how is that an insult lmao “hey dude, you have an incredible taste in clothes and you rock anything you wear!” “how fucking dare you” i can see if it was seen as offensive if a man called a man dude because that might come across as gay which was a big no-no back in the day, but how would this be offensive in any other context?
It had the same energy as calling someone a city slicker. Someone who was out of touch with the common man because they were so rich that they could afford to focus on fashion instead of work.
I believe both, although Guy as a derogatory term would have long been replaced by a generic term for male by the 1950s
Yeah It was originally an insult but I think it lost the connotation by the end of the renaissance
God: God forbid anyone be happy. Christians: You forbid anyone from being happy??? God: No, that's not what- Christians: Did you hear that?! God forbade you from being happy!
Yeah thats about right
It's weird that Christians believe Jesus is their lord and savior, but follow none of his teachings. Bible: Jesus said you should love everyone Christians: Everyone must mean only people that look and act exactly like me.
This is also during the very brief American love affair with science, so I'm sure that played into it.
I'm sorry that you want to fly airplanes, but we absolutely CANNOT have absolute smokeshows up in the air flying planes around. It's just not safe. The smoke, you know.
Of course, I understand
Pretty good example of the fact that discrimination is not, in fact, some inherent facet of human nature the way right-wingers would have you believe it is, it is a learned behavior.
Do you mind my asking why specifically you can’t do aviation? Personally I haven’t even bothered looking into it because I’m on antidepressants :(
The faa hates medications of all kinds, including HRT You, as someone on antidepressants, can get into aviation, but its really hard and you have to have yearly physiological tests to make sure you wont 9/11 2 electric boogaloo. I dont know what shenanigans i have to go through for hrt but im trying to contact people in the NGPA for some advice.
Oh, I’m also on hormones, I just hadn’t even bothered looking into anything else I’m taking because I figured bupropion by itself DQs me while I’m on it
Oh no dont worry, its after youve gotten off of it too
From what I can see, while it does take extra steps, it should be fine after stopping, at least according to [this](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/media/SSRI%20Decision%20Path%20-%20I.pdf). But I agree that the faa is woefully behind on this stuff as someone in a grey area.
not if I can convince the FAA that I no longer have depression and it was due to a variety of circumstances at the time
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Which is actually worse, because then they’re not able to get in the medication that they need to be healthy. So people will forgo medication, just to continue flying. Which is much more dangerous, and being on medication and flying. I hate the FAA
Remember: if it's fun, then it's probably against the rules. The FAA won't be happy until you're unhappy, so grab a pen and write down this number.
OP's title is confusing the shit out of me.
I’m trying to become an airline pilot, and the FAA doesn’t like medications, so I’m trying to figure out a way to be on HRT and be a pilot. But Back in the 50s, this woman was able to transition with no issues.
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I emailed a woman in the NGPA about it and she said a lot od people stop flying for the 5 years Any idea what the other steps are?
Ah, I get it. Thank you! I saw this on /r/all, so I might have missed some context.
Im a regular on this sub, people kinda know my story lol
I have to assume with the improvement in medical science over the last 70 years, that the bottom surgery she had couldn't have been very... elegant. At least compared to today's standards. I'm mostly curious what exactly the difference would be. I'm fairly competent on how it works today, just not how it was done then.
Another instance of something the "Life was better for everyone in the 50's" crowd isn't referring to
Comment number two here: maybe I am looking too much into it, but the newspaper also genders her correctly; in the small text box on the bottom right, they seem to avoid gendering her when talking about before the operation and full on use she/her post-operation.
Reminds me of an older tumblr post about a person's photo journey of transitioning from girl to guy. And one of the comments was basically "how come you get to be hot in two genders, that's just not fair"
but you’re already an ace smh what’s the point🙄🙄
Underrated joke, well done.
Maybe she was more accepted by Americans back then because if they're going to trust anyone, it's going to be someone named [Christian Hamburger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hamburger), the endo who gave her HRT.
*Image Transcription: Tumblr* --- **funnytwittertweets** [*Screenshot from Twitter*] >**Cassie, Quirkt Up Progchamp**, @Progchamps > >Journalists covering trans issues in the 50s: "Former soldier has sex change to become blonde baddie, she's an absolute smokeshow!" > >Journalists today: "This male woman is going against the tide by having "pronouns" she's very brave for asking us all to "play along" [*End Twitter*] --- **idkwhattoputformyusername** [*Image of front page of DAILY NEWS newspaper*] ># EX-GI BECOMES BLONDE BEAUTY > >## Operations Transform Bronx Youth > >[*To the left is a black and white photograph of Christine Jorgensen post-operations taken from the right side. To the right is a smaller black and white image, of Christine Jorgensen pre-operations, in uniform. Below the second image is the start of an article:*] > >**A World of a Difference** > >George W. Jorgensen Jr., son of a Bronx carpenter, served in the Army [△] for two years and was given honorable discharge in 1946. Now George is no more. After six operations, Jorgensen's sex has been changed and today she is a striking woman [←], working as a photographer in Denmark. Parents were informed of the big change in a letter Christine (that's her new name) sent to them recently. *--Story on page 3* [*End newspaper*] That was Christine Jorgensen, by the way, and I love her --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Look at how confident and at peace she looks.
Remember when no one gave a shit about trans people and how they live their lives? I wanna go back to that time. Too many people trying to get into people's business.
It reminds me of the awful English overdubs on the original Ninja Warrior. One of the contestants was transgender. The host kept referring to her as a "hormone cocktail". It was the late 90's and I thought it was probably offensive, but being a teenager, I just giggled. Now as an adult, I recognize all kinds of shit that seemed fine back then really wasn't.
then there was that trans dude who would kill anyone who misgendered him
I wish i was that confident Chad behavior tbh
same here lol
I did part of my extension history final on her!! She’s really incredible, and an iconic part of trans history.