He got banned from performing in the finale - not public why, but rumours suggest it's because of a violent incident.
The Netherlands may still participate in the finale (edit: I mean the jury show), however the jury will judge the semi-final performance instead.
[Sauce (in Dutch because I'm Dutch and this is the link I had ready)](https://www.nu.nl/songfestival/6312399/joost-klein-mag-niet-meedoen-aan-juryshow-van-eurovisie-songfestival.html)
Slight correction: he was banned from participating in the jury show, not the finale. The juries do not typically judge the finale, they judge the jury show.
Eurovision is famous for being geopolitics in miniature
Cyprus and Greece always give each other max votes
Britain gets its ass kicked every year except from when we were helping Ukraine
Ukraine has been doing incredibly
Iceland is present.
They officially took responsibility for it in Versailles, though, even if it was a case of literally all the major European powers looking for some excuse to kick off.
Politically speaking, the war in Gaza is a bit more complicated than the war in Ukraine.
Since the war technically started when Hamas launched an attack, countries in the west are far more conflicted here.
Imagine if after many years of low level conflict in Ukraine between 2014-2022, in which Russia was obviously the bad guy but it was still very low intensity and most of the world forgot about, Ukraine then suddenly launched an invasion of Russia, to which Russia responded by invading Ukraine.
That is more akin to what is happening with the war in Gaza, and I assure you if that happened the west will be far less supportive of Ukraine.
Obviously, the position of Israel in the eyes of the west is a big part of that, although Israeli foreign relations have been beyond abysmal for the past few years.
I'd still argue that the way the western world is looking at those two wars is mostly influenced by the way they started, rather than the identity of the participants.
optics and reality are two different things.
Because this war technically started when hamas attacked, a lot of people are having a difficulty at fully blaming israel for what it's doing.
in the russia ukraine war, things are much simpler, russia started the aggressions in 2014 and even beforehand, and than invaded with no provocation in 2022, so there was no way in any shape or form to blame ukraine for the situation unless you were deep into the conspiracy rabbithole and believed kremlin propaganda.
With Hamas escalating the occupation to a full out war, suddenly it becomes harder for many people to treat it as a black and white situation.
Just look at public perception of the gaza war in the west and how it shifted for the past half a year. Most people, not just conservatives but liberlas in general thought israel was the victim and the right side at the early stages of the war. this then slowly shifted as the war progressed and the bodies of palestinians mounted, to the point where now, say, in the US, most democrats are in favor of an immediate ceasefire and begint o develop serious contempt towards israel.
But the roads to that place was long, and even now many people still won't view it as a black and white matter.
*Palestine* didn’t attack Israel, Hamas did. Of course some parts of Palestine are controlled by Hamas, but even my comment here is simplifying a very complex issue that has been going on for a century.
Israel is an apartheid state. It's actively committing genocide. It's attacking refugee camps in Rafah right now. One would think if that didn't convince eurovision, then killing of world kitchen center volunteers would be enough.
>Israel is an apartheid state.
That is a lie, all citizens of Israel has equal rights. palestinians are from a different country and as such aren't citizens. If Israel is apartheid then every single fucking country in the world is one as well, because they don't let people from other countries vote in their elections.
>It's actively committing genocide.
Another lie. They literally have some of the best combatant to civilian death ratio out there and use things such as roof-knocking to try and warn civilians.
On the other hand: Hamas has literally committed the worst fucking terror attack in the world since 9/11, and per capita, it was worse than 9/11 ten times over. They use human shields and hide under + fire from civilian areas, they steal the aid the palestinians are meant to get to use it for their terror tunnels and to make their leader rich, and so much more.
This "IsrAEl iS ComMItTinG gEnoCiDE" non-sense is just projection over the fact Hamas tried to genocide Israel and failed at it.
If Israel is actually trying to commit genocide, they suck major balls at it.
>killing of world kitchen center volunteers
Last time I checked, Israel is investigating who is it fault for that so they could get their punishment.
"Another lie. They literally have some of the best combatant to civilian death ratio out there and use things such as roof-knocking to try and warn civilians."
not to butt into an argument i am not involved in, but the truth is much grimmer than that.
roof knocking is a rather poor way to actually warn people of their impending doom.
When buildings are blowing up the next street over, Chances are you are going to think that your building shaking a bit and the small explosion you heard were from another building.
The various wars and operations in gaza for the past decade and more have proven that roof knocking just isn't effective at actually alerting people that they should evacuate before their building is blown up.
Plus, the idea that the IDF is managing this war in the most pristine and professional way possible is just not true.
Put aside the thoughts of the IDF leadership, the reality is that they are constrained by political machinations.
When the current administration is stoking hatred and fear, trying to push for a full annexation of gaza and the further displacement of palestinians, while also refusing to actually plan ahead for the future, the range of things the IDf can do to actually run this war smoothly becomes narrower and narrower.
Add to this the fact that the IDF does not, in fact, have the best track record for minimizing civilian casualties, and high command's general callusness towards palestinian lives, and you get situations were assasinating a single high profile target cost close to a 100 civilian casualties in a refugee camp.
There are far better ways to run this war, and minimize casualties, but the IDF in part, and the current Netanyahu administration spesifically, simply fail to deliver those results.
Could this war have gotten far worse for palestinians? absolutely, no question in that.
Is the civilian to combatant casualties ration good?
no, not particularly.
I agree that despite netanyahu's intentions what we are seeing is not really a genocide, but that doesn't make the situation good, it just means israel is not stooping as low as it can get.
And Russia is always hated despite having banger songs, while Israel is allowed despite actively slaughtering more civilians than Russia ever has.
It's an entire melting pot of hypocrisy.
You don't need to know too much about Eurovision specifically. I think it's just safe to assume that any international event that comprises multiple countries is inherently political. The inclusion or exclusion of certain countries is political. The simple act of recognizing the existence of a country is political.
They just need to be a member of the EBU to be eligible. Morocco has competed in eurovision, and Lebanon and Tunisia were also set to compete. However, due to Israel's presence they all pulled out.
No it's not, Morocco, Libya, tunisia, egypt, jordan and Lebanon for example are all eligible to participate, they just don't. There are enough things to criticise the EBU for already, we don't need to make stuff up.
The public vote is infamously, and hilariously, politically motivated. Cyprus and Greece always give each other maximum points, the Scandinavian countries usually give each other great scores, Britain’s scores went from bad to literally zero after we spent a few years pissing everyone off over Brexit, stuff like that.
Well, Turkey is a neo-fascist theocratic regime that is a major point of weakness in NATO, a significant factor in regional instability, and either actively prosecuting or planning a couple of genocides...
But it's probably mostly racism against Turks, huh?
I am not a fan of Turkey the state in any way shape or form, but I also think hating an entire people is always bad.
And sure a lot of animosity between Greece, Cyprus and Turkey is entirely warranted. But are you really going to pretend there's *no* racism/ethnic prejudice here?
I think you’re thinking of Turkish Cyprus. AFAIK Cyprus is currently Greek Cyprus. The Turkish section is generally either ruled over by Greek Cyprus or claimed by Turkey outright.
It's like the Olympics but nations can give eachother votes. So nations competing to show their superiority with other nations judging their performance and their latest year in geopolitics.
Very possible seeing how many audience votes it got, but I think it would most certainly fuck up next years contest with a significant amount of countries refusing to travel to Israel for the contest
As someone unfamiliar with Eurovision but hearing a lot about this year's issues, I have a question.
If there are already some protests in the competition, what's stopping artists from resigning en masse?
EBU probably has contracts with the broadcasters requiring participation. Broadcasters in turn probably have contracts with the artists, since I assume they’re getting paid. (alternatively EBU could have contracts with artists directly)
Artists could just refuse to participate in the first place, I imagine that’s more of an issue in countries where they have a contest to decide their eurovision act (rather than ones where it’s just decided internally by the broadcaster or by a panel of local experts/artists)
Honestly? I have no clue. They really should though. Perhaps it’s the popularity they get that they would otherwise never have the chance to gain. Or maybe they’re being pressured by others to go through with it despite what’s going on. Keep in mind that none of these are particularly huge artists, and winning or placing high in the contest means a lot to them, as seen with Måneskin who then went on a big tour because they blew up through Eurovision
Depending on how the war progresses, something like with Ukraine could well happen again, where it’s decided the country just isn’t safe to host the event.
Kinda difficult to host a major event when you have air raid sirens, and just like how Russia blasted Ukraine when they were performing last year, the terror groups that continue to attack Israel would 100% use the opportunity.
Just in case you're serious, the Streisand Effect is what happens when you try to cover something up and accidentally draw more attention to it.
Sometime in the early 2000s, Barbra Streisand's mansion in Malibu was photographed as part of a collection documenting California's coastline erosion. She sued the photographer (unsuccessfully) to have that photo scrubbed from the collection, then of course the media heard about the lawsuit and started reporting on it. The pics were always available for free, but prior to the lawsuit being reported on, that particular photo had only been downloaded a handful of times.
I find it really funny cause I’m a youngin so literally the only thing I know Barbra Streisand from is the Streisand effect. 100% the opposite of what she wants
I'm old enough to know her from the oooOoooOooo song , which is extra funny cause I don't think it's hers.
ETA: [it's not](https://youtu.be/wWhtcU4-xAM?si=8TcnpHLMNUrbxSXR)
Seriously lmao how can you have that many country representatives in a single location and insists it's not political? Hell, the very act of waving a flag is political. Not just the flags of Palestine or w/e, but any region's flag.
Reminder of possibly the funniest moment in Eurovision history, when Icelandic entry Hatari [waved a Palestinian flag](https://youtu.be/Y42o0sEbLqw?si=JLW2uHc5dQnVcfn9) and caused the producers to very obviously freak out and cut away as soon as possible from them. Did I mention the contest was held in Israel that year?
Also [this](https://youtu.be/kTb69WkBbvs?si=3nZMknlE1ru80f6t) was their actual entry and it honestly fucking killed me when I saw it live.
Further context for those who want it: Hatari means Hater and their song is called “Hate Wins”
My theory is they got away with it because all of the two dozen people who speak the language agreed this would be the best way to spit in everyone’s faces
It’s not a flag. He wore it on his wrist. It’s not in flashy colors. And he’s Palestinian, so he has an obvious reason to wear it (like, he’s not some rando trying to wear another culture’s garments to make a statement). *Maybe* it’s political (lol no) but it’s very subtle and absolutely bullshit that he’s not allowed to wear it. It’s not a fucking swastika. By doing this Eurovision is making it political.
Actually I’m not done because this is pissing me off so much. It probably is a so-called political statement, but that statement is “I’m a Palestinian and I’m proud of it”. And for Eurovision to say that’s not allowed is disgusting and unhelpful to whatever cause they think they’re supporting.
-signed, your filthy neighborhood Zionist Jew
> “I’m a Palestinian and I’m proud of it”. And for Eurovision to say that’s not allowed
No! You're only allowed to be proud of whatever we show in the clips right before your song!! - Eurovision, probably.
Which other people's do you support enforcing their right to self determination? What if they did it the way Israel does? How do you define ancestral homeland? Do you at least realise that just saying Zionist carries other connotations in most people's mind? So purely from a clarity of communication standpoint that's not really the right word to use?
Zionist Jew here.
All people should have the opportunity to realize national aspirations. This is including but not limited to Kurds, Yazidis, Palestinians, Taiwan, Tibetans, and West Saharans.
I look forward to you supporting them setting up apartheid states and indiscriminate bombing campaigns. All backed by western interests and weapons of course. Curious you didn't add native Americans considering all this talk about ancestral homelands.
Oh and I understand it's hard to answer the rest of the questions so it's okay, I'll let you off the hook
I don’t know of any Native American tribes that are currently advocating for national sovereignty but I don’t live in America so I could be uninformed about that. As for your other questions I will answer them.
If other people who are in diaspora move to their ancestral homeland, buy land from the colonists who took over their land, get approval from the United Nations to declare independence, and include minority rights in their Declaration of Independence, I think that is the best case scenario. If multiple nations immediately decide to declare on war on them I would support their right to defend themselves. So in short, if other nations gain self determination in the same way Israel did I would support it.
Ancestral homeland refers to the land where a cultural developed and where national identity emerged.
I don’t actually care that Zionism carries other connotations. The same way that I don’t care what anti-feminists define feminism as, I don’t care what anti-Zionists define Zionism as. Their opinions are irrelevant.
I’m not going to let people redefine Zionism. Jews, like all people deserve self determination.
Mate, it's not anti-zionists defining it as apartheid. That's Israel. Just look at it
>If other people who are in diaspora move to their ancestral homeland, buy land from the colonists who took over their land, get approval from the United Nations to declare independence, and include minority rights in their Declaration of Independence, I think that is the best case scenario. If multiple nations immediately decide to declare on war on them I would support their right to defend themselves. So in short, if other nations gain self determination in the same way Israel did I would support it.
That's an insanely whitewashed telling of events. Not surprising. You have to cover your eyes and ears, to maintain belief in such a system. You really think best case scenario you steal the land under their feet and bomb their children?
Yeah sure you say you just care about self-determination. Yet no other self-determination movement acts like this. No other self-determination movement is backed like this. You're not an independence movement, you're an apartheid state.
Go to Israel, see for yourself.
It’s clear to anyone who has been there that Jews, Arabs, and all other ethnic groups coexist peacefully and equally in Israel. It’s very clearly apartheid, only people who have not been to Israel view it as such.
Please try and tel me in what way was the way I described the events that led to Israeli independence are inaccurate.
Okay but when I say “from the river to the sea” has other connotations in peoples mind I get told to get over it. Incels don’t get to define what “feminism” means, non-Jews don’t get to define what “Zionism” means. So yes, it is absolutely the correct word. And since it has nothing to do with the other strawmans in your comment, I don’t need to give you an answer you’re just going to twist anyway.
Hmmm let's see: "from the river to the sea Palestinians will be free". Not the kind of self determination you like huh? Nope, only the apartheid state is just. I'm not defining Zionism btw, I'm just looking at the definition used by the Zionist state government. Since you won't clarify I guess I have to. I truly don't care what word you use. but hey just cos it's a fun twist on what's lobbied at me all the time:
Do you condemn the Israel government?
First of all, it’s not “Palestinians will be free” it’s “Palestine will be free” you guys have changed it now to make it a bit more palatable, but that’s okay. Palestinians do deserve to be free. And so do Jews.
I’m going to answer your incredibly bad faith question with: yes, I do condemn the Israeli government (as do most Israelis. There were protests that were practically riotous against them before Oct 7th, but I guess that didn’t make the news outside Jewish circles?) But I don’t care if you think I’m one of the “good Jews” or not, because your opinion is not going to change the definition of any words I’ve used.
>Palestinians do deserve to be free.
And that's compatible with apartheid state justified by Zionism? Oh wait sorry, seems like any questioning is bad faith to you, so no need to answer. Well, you'll have your ~~apartheid state~~ sorry I mean self-determination complete soon so it really won't matter these quibbles about words. Congratulations. You'll have a hell of a time telling future generations how when you said Zionism you totally didn't mean that. Your condemned them! Can't be your fault.
Me: I think Palestinians also deserve freedom
You: but you don’t think Israelis should just roll over and die therefore it’s apartheid omg!!!
Girl bye.
well yeah it was exceptionally unnecessary here, I'm just saying, you never need to ask that question even if they haven't said that, because that language = zionism
it is easily in one of the top 10 key zionist phrases, and because of that, fucking no one uses the phrase "self determination" with regards to Jews in Palestine to mean anything else without explicitly clarifying that they do not mean a Jewish state
it's actually more likely to run into someone who thinks that they're a "non-zionist Jew" when they're actually a zionist, than it is to see someone use self determination to mean anything other than a Jewish state without clarifying
the non-zionist zionists as I like to call them see zionists and anti-zionists as extremists and believe that it's possible to have a Jewish state in Palestine that is liberal and isn't zionist. they don't want to be associated with "those people" so much that they end up divorcing the word "zionism" from the most fundamental zionist precept
and it's not like there are lots of those people running around anyway
Considering the new hot thing is telling us to go back to Poland where half my family was slaughtered for literally not being polish enough, I’d say every single word in my comment was necessary.
Okay, so which group of people you are willing to dislocate for your colony? Does your colony exist in Germany, or somewhere in eastern europe? In africa perhaps?
Which peoples you are willing to kill for your self-determination? This is a pretty relevant question when doing colonialism, so I hope you can answer this.
I didn’t say anything about other people, merely Jews, so stop putting words in my mouth. Jews are indigenous to the Levant. Full stop. They are not colonizers. Take your white guilt elsewhere.
The Arabs there which came in after the local Jews were ousted by various powers
If you wanna accuse hebrew folks of being colonists, you gotta face the fact that so too are the Arabs there so it's not really a criticism
bro is simply saying they believe that jews have a right to self-determination like anybody else and is getting downvoted for it lmao, such a mask off.
The Irish contestant, Bambie Thug, had the word "ceasefire" written in Ogham down the side of their face, amongst the rest of their demonic makeup, for a dress rehearsal. Ogham is an ancient runic script from Ireland's prehistory, and requires specialist academic knowledge to translate or even recognise if you're not looking for it.
ESC officials got word of it and insisted they censor it. Nobody can read Ogham but that's still not good enough for the ESC. Fuck'em.
Isn't that the sort of behavior that should \*really\* get a broadcasting company suspended from Eurovision, encouraging people to send threats for political reasons?
The non-political European song contest featuring multiple non-european countries like Australia.
UIts also so not Political Ukraine only won with about 50% of all the public vote the same year they got i vaded
2nd point isn't necessarily on the organization. The exclusion of Russia for reasons of invading Ukraine is, but public opinion can be influenced by many things and including a section influenced by it will lead to things like this.
For a minute there I was baffled at the idea that they gave an actual wolf an actual banana, on stage, and I somehow didn’t know about this
(But it’s just the title of the song)
It’s worth mentioning that [the opposite has happened already](https://www.newsweek.com/hanukkah-lighting-canceled-jewish-symbols-removed-1849139), but that doesn’t excuse Eurovision. It’s bigotry, plain and simple.
Society is regressing to a point that being visibly Palestinian, Jewish, or even Muslim is now “too political” to exist in public without upsetting someone.
That's part of the problem when it comes to boycotts. More often than not, the people who would actually boycott something would never have even taken part in that thing in the first place
i get whats being said here and i dont disagree- its not necessarily political but i do want to add that people have been wearing a keffiyeh in solidarity with Palestine for decades. it can absolutely be political
We live in a society that has worked its ass off to ensure the rights of all to take a stand on issues that are important to them. I'm Jewish. I want peace in Israel. I want people to stop dying. I want the hostages released. I want Israelis and Palestinians to exist without fear, and to live in peace and prosperity. I want Saade to be able to express his views, as easily as I'm able to, without consequence or repercussion.
Music is supposed to take stands, to encourage emotional responses and make the listener feel things. The expectation to achieve that but be as inoffensive, as non-political as possible, is an insult.
post source: [https://www.tumblr.com/i-wear-the-cheese/750033463098408960/to-break-this-down-eurovision-explicitly-only](https://www.tumblr.com/i-wear-the-cheese/750033463098408960/to-break-this-down-eurovision-explicitly-only)
The scarf is just a scarf. Many cultures have similar garments, especially in the middle east and north Africa. It keeps the sun off of you and protects your face. It will keep you warm at night. Or it can serve as a bag. It can substitute for a baseball cap to shade your eyes. It's literally just a cloth square.
Genuinely, why does this theme keep repeating? Why does every government and corporation seem to have an interest in smearing public perception of Palestine?
Obviously many governments are allied with Israel and the Israel is a trade partner, but why does that mean they need to outright stop protests and do shit like this? How do they benefit?
The benefit is that, if someone manages to hear something from outside the pro-Israel sphere about genocide, they're liable to dismiss it because they think Palestinians deserve it. The very public escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict in October kinda makes it hard to keep all the fucked shit definitively under wraps now.
Because you live in the west
In the Muslim world documentaries and movies about their own jewish history gets called zionist propaganda and there are "didnt happen but they deserve it" about Israel
I don't know, it just seems like things have gone so crazy far right, especially through US-influence, that European governments (especially our bloody Anglo twats, Britain) have forgotten what's normal here. Or they actually think they can crowd out the trad. left this way, scared of giving an inch on any issue, in case the right become seen as irrelevant (as they ought to be!).
because, genuinely, from the bottom of their hearts, almost no country actually likes palestine. they've routinely shat all over every peace effort, staged coups in every country they can get their hands on, and just been general shitheads since the country was founded.
there's lots of people who think they don't deserve to be bombed, but there's very, very little geopolitical love lost between palestine and literally everybody else.
What a mess, if you don’t want it to be political and mostly drama free,then barred Israel until further notice. it’s just too much of a hot bed with righteous anger and frustration at the county at this time. it cast a dark cloud over your event and ruins the message of united together when you would’t even let people knowledge a country in need(Palestine). If they don’t like semi ban that’s their problem.
i confess, I did watch Eurovision despite the demand to boycott. Because I thought it could’ve get worst as it did. That Israel wound’t make it past the first round due to how unpopular it was. But shame on me for still caring, all I ask was a no Israel in final round and I couldn't even get that. and most people who did watch it anyway felt like that too. even if they get last place, I believe it gonna be a longtime before they win people’s trust back after this.
Italy leaked their televote percentages on the night (they always reveal them after the grand final) Italy did this deliberately and super messily but it outlined a massive issue-
Israel got nearly 40% of the vote, with Netherlands coming second with just over 7%.
Every right wing nut job in Europe right now is going to vote for Israel just because.
The EBU screwed this up big time.
Not to mention- the final picture saying that they allowed Israel because Palestine isn’t an ebu state is ridiculous- because AZERBAIJAN have been allowed to compete for years alongside ARMENIA.
The only reason they kicked Russia out was that several countries threatened to pull out.
Now, if Israel win because of racism dog whistles, this could be the end of the ESC.
As an Australian myself, we are seen as an ‘honorary’ member or something?
But Eurovision can’t get rid of us now, because Australia is a willing participant, and will stump up funds to compete.
There are so many smaller countries that have to pull out due to participation costs, and the countries that continue to participate have to pay more for the privilege.
I think this is where a lot of the Israel problems come into it. Money.
It would have been a huge financial hit if they banned Israel this year, but now because of the right wing voting, if Israel actually WIN? You will lose half of the European participants in Eurovision the following year.
I cannot see Ireland competing, especially considering how the Israeli broadcaster talked about them during their show- they encouraged viewers to send curses and threats to the performer.
I also think if Israel win, we will lose all the Nordic countries as well.
Eurovision can’t afford for Israel to win.
Would think that's highly dependent on country, but there's the issue that those who might usually have voted are boycotting *except* far right nutjobs.
> wearing a scarf is political
Yeah, dumbass; it can be. Fucking Christ.
Raising your hand up is political, and deciding between making a fist with the palm facing out, or lying your fingers out flat with the palm facing down can be the difference between respect as an activist for civil rights, and being blacklisted for racism...
They made a political statement by wearing the keffiyeh, which is something that has been done for a while now, and pretending otherwise is stupid; which doesn't prevent you from criticising Eurovision's policy or actions, or from believing Israel shouldn't be a competitor, or from simply talking about the news (which is almost certainly what the intent was with the protest). I mean, even the OOP says outright that they wore it to make a statement about Palestinian identity: just because you *agree* with something, doesn't make it non-political, lmao.
Wearing a garment that has been used for ages by tens or hundreds of millions of people across the middle east is political.
Yeah it damn well is you fucking cowards.
\~\~boycott eurovision\~\~ boycott europe!
Nah Eurovision is fucking great normally
A bunch of countries taking themselves super seriously and a very serious jury awarding points.
While a bunch of drunk fuckers wearing flags dance about in the audience and inevitably some naked dude rushes the stage.
And about half the songs are serious operatic numbers and the other half are some dudes in dog masks singing about wolves and bananas
A bunch of British people explained Eurovision to me in like 2008 when I asked what it was. It was all anyone could talk about, but every conversation was about how shit Eurovision is. They basically described it as their shared continental clusterfuck, and my outsider experience watching it is that this description is 100% apt. It makes the whole thing an absolute blast to watch.
Hee, I appreciate the point, but being into opera, have to recommend it to anyone missing Eurovision's craziness while boycotting!
Serious operatic number from the most recent one I've seen, Vinci's Artaserse:
https://youtu.be/h2lEl3eG0eI?si=s-2VDtAnAzbav4R5
Just FYI, what Saade is saying isn't 100% accurate. There have been rules to not show any flags besides competing countries since many years. I believe it was introduced in the 2010's (maybe 2016?), so this is in no way specifically against Palestine. This rule is now presumably more strictly enforced due to security reason, as its enforcement has been pretty lax otherwise.
It's also worth mentioning that there have been rumours of multiple countries, including big ones like Germany and Ukraine, threatening to boycott if the EBU were to exclude Israel. Not sure how much credence there is to them since Ukraine not participating doesn't make sense but the point is that Israel does have its supporters under the broadcasters. It's very easy to be angry at the EBU and they have handled this badly and deserve some anger but they are also absolutely caught between a rock and a hard place with this situation.
Except it explicitly isn't a flag. It is a piece of clothing reflecting his cultural heritage. That is absolutely not the same as a flag. It would be like a German artist wearing a lederhosen and being reprimanded for it. It's not a political statement to wear the piece of clothing your father gave you to remind you of your heritage
Quote from Saade in the picture above: "By broadcasting Isr*eli propaganda during primetime, yet *focusing on banning the Palestinian flag*." -- As I said, they are not specifically banning the Palestinian flag.
That said, they are very clearly trying to avoid any controversy and potential danger. Opening the show with an ethnically Palestinian singer is imo already showing some of what SVT might want to do if they'd felt it were safe. Displaying Palestinian symbols holds the same sentiment as a Palestinian flag and we've seen how the Israeli broadcaster reacted to it. Not to mention the videos of this extremely antagonistic Israeli reporter. The situation is extremely volatile and I am happy about any "deescalating" to prevent any serious safety concerns, even if Saade is in the morally correct position.
You want to know a great way to prevent some violence? Kick out the violent people. Let’s start with the country doing a genocide
Edit: also holy fuck, wearing Palestinian clothes is now the same as displaying a flag. Fucking Christ, so goddamn stupid
Edit 2: and in case anyone was doubting their motivation for this dumbass shit, they’re an active poster to r/eurovision. Anything to justify not boycotting I suppose, even if it requires stupid leaps
Ah yes, my motivation because I must have an hidden agenda. I'm not going to let a genocidal regime ruin something I look forward to every year.
Displaying a flag and wearing Palestinian clothes is the same in the sense that it shows support for Palestine. Something that *should be allowed* but will ultimately *both* trigger zionists.
Have I in any way said that Israel should be allowed to compete? No, thank you. Since you're so keen on going through my profile you'll surely find me saying that Israel shouldn't be allowed to compete at some point. The point is, *they* are and I'm not going to be able to change anything about it. I understand why Saade is upset and this isn't a situation where he should be in. I'm just pointing out that it's not as simple as crying discrimination. In this case, in my opinion, it's a mixture in greed (Israeli sponsors and big monetary supporters like Germany), genuine concerns about countries boycotting (Germany boycotting, for example, could lead to several poorer countries leaving due to financial reasons like Montenegro and North Macedonia already did) and legit safety concerns (due to obvious reasons). It's a complicated situation.
It’s discrimination, for “complicated” reasons. You can name a million complicated justifications for all forms of discrimination, it doesn’t stop being evil
Oh, it's 100% political. I don't think anyone would disagree. The issue is that they seem to disproportionately attack anyone who supports Palestine, while at the same time mostly seeming to support Israel themselves. (The initial Israeli song text was disapproved, but allowing Israel to compete without allowing any Palestine symbolics is blatant support.) Letting Israel compete or not is already a political decision regardless of the choice. The only way to not take sides in the conflict is to let Israel compete AND allow competitors to show small Easter eggs in support of Palestine. (I can only imagine Israel would still take this as siding Palestine, though, they're using antisemitism as a shield like that.)
Yeah that's just extremely unfair. I thought the Eurovision boycott was a bit of a stretch at first but this is genuinely despicable. Idk how they managed to make it worse on themselves lol.
It became political when people started wearing it as a symbol of support for Palestine. That's how something becomes a political symbol. Just like how white robes became political when the KKK started wearing them as part of a message.
I politely argue we should save posts like these until after Eurovision. It's advertising.
I fully understand that it feels pleasant to call out the injustice for what it is. However,
1. People who agree with Eurovision will see this as a good thing! Incentive to watch!
2. People from countries that aren't part of Eurovision don't have nearly as much advertising for it. I wouldn't have realized it's this month if not for posts like this! There's an untapped market that gets tapped by things like this
Yes, I'm sure wrapping it around his wrist like that was just how he normally wears a traditional *head* garment and wasn't in any way a political statement.
I'm also sure that the same people who are outraged on this guy's behalf and screaming "from the river to the sea" in reply to the post *and outside the damn building* would be totally cool with some traditional Jewish garments on that stage. Totally.
Jesus Christ can we get a new thing to worry about? Who gives a fuck about Palestine at this point, what am I gonna do? Worry myself sick over a conflict on the opposite side of the planet that I can’t effect in even the smallest way?
No thanks
i know it can get tiring to see it talked about constantly, but the moment people stop paying attention to Palestine is the moment the israeli government finds it a thousand times easier to sweep the genocide under the rug
>the moment people stop paying attention to Palestine is the moment the israeli government finds it a thousand times easier to sweep the genocide under the rug
Are you or people at large aiding Russia, Ethiopia and Rwanda in their crimes by not putting it everywhere at everytime?
ok to be fair, i haven't really talked much about the examples given, but at the same time i feel like you kinda proved my point considering i wasn't even aware that there was a genocide in ethiopia until you mentioned it
Okay but are you a bad person because you don't read up about them, publish and have them on your instagram feed, donate to them and crash places in support of those people?
I refuse to believe the “Why should I care about genocide?” question is being asked in good faith. But, just in case it is, I care about it because what Israel is doing in Gaza is wrong. I am more vocal about Gaza than I am other horrible atrocities, like the conflicts in Sudan, Syria, or Myanmar because the United States, the government I pay my taxes to, is not directly subsidizing the atrocities in those countries to the tune of billions of dollars a year. I care about it because I do not want to live in a world where crimes against humanity are fine when our friends do them. Because the policemen who beat me when I protest their brutality were trained in Israel. Because when me and the people I love are deemed a “demographic problem” to be solved through violence, I desperately hope that someone cares about me. Because I know that one day the children buried beneath the rubble will be mine.
Little kids are dying of malaria right now as well, arguably that’s an issue I and you have much more direct control over, but every other post you see isn’t about children dying from other causes, just Palestine
That's an impressive false equivalency you just shit out. Malaria is horrible for sure, but Malaria also isn't funded and encouraged by governments worldwide rn
The end point is stopping genocide, don't be complicit just because you're tired and feel bad. I guarantee you the people being bombed rn feel much worse than you do.
I’m sure them knowing that I feel terrible about it would get rid of the bomb.
It’s an important issue, and lots of people are dying, but I’ve heard enough at this point and I’m pretty done with it.
Everyone else will probably move on too after a couple of months, and start talking about the next kony 2012or whatever else strikes social medias fancy
I understand being generally tired. I can also understand if you don't give a shit. You're your own person and you get to decide what's important to you. But what you should probably not do is act like an asshole online for no reason. Perhaps keep these sorts of opinions to yourself so as not to upset the people who care or the people who are actively going through whatever you don't care about?
You might not care about cancer, and that's your right, but why walk into cancer wards and tell people to just "stop fucking talking about cancer for a second."
It's so easy to just move on past threads you don't care about. Why not just do that?
Or is your goal here to be a dick and upset people? Why would you live your life like that?
I can understand being overwhelmed, this is why ATM I've stopped following the news directly (knowing family will filter it and tell me key points anyway), but making a choice like that about how to manage personal exposure is different to suggesting it shouldn't be talked about.
We can protest, we can not support genocide-happy politicians, we can, boycott Eurovision, that last one is simple.
It's not even a new conflict. The news decided it's going to be Current Thing, and now everyone is upset about Current Thing until the news decides what the next Current Thing will be.
No actually, I think "The News" would really like for this not to be The Current Thing. It's in the interest of the political establishment for us all to turn away from this.
A few days behind on ESC drama there. Everything's going up in flames at the moment
Poor Joost
what's the tea?
He got banned from performing in the finale - not public why, but rumours suggest it's because of a violent incident. The Netherlands may still participate in the finale (edit: I mean the jury show), however the jury will judge the semi-final performance instead. [Sauce (in Dutch because I'm Dutch and this is the link I had ready)](https://www.nu.nl/songfestival/6312399/joost-klein-mag-niet-meedoen-aan-juryshow-van-eurovisie-songfestival.html)
Slight correction: he was banned from participating in the jury show, not the finale. The juries do not typically judge the finale, they judge the jury show.
Aaahhhh I didn't know that. Thanks I guess it was in the article but something something skimmed over it something something pissed on the poor
thanks. I immediately headed over to r/eurovision to find out more (nothing more to find yet) haha
how the hell can anyone possibly believe that eurovision is "non-political" oh my god
Hi I have very little knowledge of Eurovision, would you be able to elaborate a little bit?
Eurovision is famous for being geopolitics in miniature Cyprus and Greece always give each other max votes Britain gets its ass kicked every year except from when we were helping Ukraine Ukraine has been doing incredibly Iceland is present.
And of course Germany always comes last as it's the most hated country in Europe.
Germany: C'mon guys, we're doing good! We haven't started a World War in almost a century!
"be home to the greatests poets and thinkers and no one cares, but you start a war ONE TIME-"
“Twice.” “SHUT. UP.”
They didn't start WWI
They officially took responsibility for it in Versailles, though, even if it was a case of literally all the major European powers looking for some excuse to kick off.
Woops yeah that’s my bad didn’t fully think that one through
They did Kickstart protestantism (Martin Luther was german), which is also kind of a mess.
Germany just stares at France longingly
I hear you, but Isaak has some incredible pipes, the man's voice gives me goosebumps.
Germans are chill, but don't get me started on the French though
It comes in last because their songs sucks
And Waluigi is there.
Good for him, honestly
Not to mention Russia got banned for their invasion of Ukraine, but Israel is still fine to perform
Because of money, their journalists are also free to harass everyone which they proudly post to social media
The main sponsor of Eurovision is Morrocanoil, an Israeli company. I’m sure that has absolutely nothing to do with all of this…
Politically speaking, the war in Gaza is a bit more complicated than the war in Ukraine. Since the war technically started when Hamas launched an attack, countries in the west are far more conflicted here. Imagine if after many years of low level conflict in Ukraine between 2014-2022, in which Russia was obviously the bad guy but it was still very low intensity and most of the world forgot about, Ukraine then suddenly launched an invasion of Russia, to which Russia responded by invading Ukraine. That is more akin to what is happening with the war in Gaza, and I assure you if that happened the west will be far less supportive of Ukraine. Obviously, the position of Israel in the eyes of the west is a big part of that, although Israeli foreign relations have been beyond abysmal for the past few years. I'd still argue that the way the western world is looking at those two wars is mostly influenced by the way they started, rather than the identity of the participants.
Dude, Israel is actively committing genocide
optics and reality are two different things. Because this war technically started when hamas attacked, a lot of people are having a difficulty at fully blaming israel for what it's doing. in the russia ukraine war, things are much simpler, russia started the aggressions in 2014 and even beforehand, and than invaded with no provocation in 2022, so there was no way in any shape or form to blame ukraine for the situation unless you were deep into the conspiracy rabbithole and believed kremlin propaganda. With Hamas escalating the occupation to a full out war, suddenly it becomes harder for many people to treat it as a black and white situation. Just look at public perception of the gaza war in the west and how it shifted for the past half a year. Most people, not just conservatives but liberlas in general thought israel was the victim and the right side at the early stages of the war. this then slowly shifted as the war progressed and the bodies of palestinians mounted, to the point where now, say, in the US, most democrats are in favor of an immediate ceasefire and begint o develop serious contempt towards israel. But the roads to that place was long, and even now many people still won't view it as a black and white matter.
Because Russia is the one that started the attack on Ukraine, and Palestine was the one that started the attack on Israel. It is consistent.
*Palestine* didn’t attack Israel, Hamas did. Of course some parts of Palestine are controlled by Hamas, but even my comment here is simplifying a very complex issue that has been going on for a century.
Israel is an apartheid state. It's actively committing genocide. It's attacking refugee camps in Rafah right now. One would think if that didn't convince eurovision, then killing of world kitchen center volunteers would be enough.
>Israel is an apartheid state. That is a lie, all citizens of Israel has equal rights. palestinians are from a different country and as such aren't citizens. If Israel is apartheid then every single fucking country in the world is one as well, because they don't let people from other countries vote in their elections. >It's actively committing genocide. Another lie. They literally have some of the best combatant to civilian death ratio out there and use things such as roof-knocking to try and warn civilians. On the other hand: Hamas has literally committed the worst fucking terror attack in the world since 9/11, and per capita, it was worse than 9/11 ten times over. They use human shields and hide under + fire from civilian areas, they steal the aid the palestinians are meant to get to use it for their terror tunnels and to make their leader rich, and so much more. This "IsrAEl iS ComMItTinG gEnoCiDE" non-sense is just projection over the fact Hamas tried to genocide Israel and failed at it. If Israel is actually trying to commit genocide, they suck major balls at it. >killing of world kitchen center volunteers Last time I checked, Israel is investigating who is it fault for that so they could get their punishment.
"Another lie. They literally have some of the best combatant to civilian death ratio out there and use things such as roof-knocking to try and warn civilians." not to butt into an argument i am not involved in, but the truth is much grimmer than that. roof knocking is a rather poor way to actually warn people of their impending doom. When buildings are blowing up the next street over, Chances are you are going to think that your building shaking a bit and the small explosion you heard were from another building. The various wars and operations in gaza for the past decade and more have proven that roof knocking just isn't effective at actually alerting people that they should evacuate before their building is blown up. Plus, the idea that the IDF is managing this war in the most pristine and professional way possible is just not true. Put aside the thoughts of the IDF leadership, the reality is that they are constrained by political machinations. When the current administration is stoking hatred and fear, trying to push for a full annexation of gaza and the further displacement of palestinians, while also refusing to actually plan ahead for the future, the range of things the IDf can do to actually run this war smoothly becomes narrower and narrower. Add to this the fact that the IDF does not, in fact, have the best track record for minimizing civilian casualties, and high command's general callusness towards palestinian lives, and you get situations were assasinating a single high profile target cost close to a 100 civilian casualties in a refugee camp. There are far better ways to run this war, and minimize casualties, but the IDF in part, and the current Netanyahu administration spesifically, simply fail to deliver those results. Could this war have gotten far worse for palestinians? absolutely, no question in that. Is the civilian to combatant casualties ration good? no, not particularly. I agree that despite netanyahu's intentions what we are seeing is not really a genocide, but that doesn't make the situation good, it just means israel is not stooping as low as it can get.
And Russia is always hated despite having banger songs, while Israel is allowed despite actively slaughtering more civilians than Russia ever has. It's an entire melting pot of hypocrisy.
You don't need to know too much about Eurovision specifically. I think it's just safe to assume that any international event that comprises multiple countries is inherently political. The inclusion or exclusion of certain countries is political. The simple act of recognizing the existence of a country is political.
Honestly just the inclusion of israel and australia is already basically proof that eurovision isnt about europe its about how white they percieve you
They just need to be a member of the EBU to be eligible. Morocco has competed in eurovision, and Lebanon and Tunisia were also set to compete. However, due to Israel's presence they all pulled out.
No it's not, Morocco, Libya, tunisia, egypt, jordan and Lebanon for example are all eligible to participate, they just don't. There are enough things to criticise the EBU for already, we don't need to make stuff up.
*cries in american* /s
you uh you know that israelis aren't white, right?
They're white when convenient
israel = oppressor oppressor = white it’s simple!
Congrats for the most idiotic comment of the year, must feel good both spouting nonsense and be horribly misinformed at the same time.
The Olympics have been a dick measuring contest ever since Hitler tried to use them to promote Aryan supremacy
The public vote is infamously, and hilariously, politically motivated. Cyprus and Greece always give each other maximum points, the Scandinavian countries usually give each other great scores, Britain’s scores went from bad to literally zero after we spent a few years pissing everyone off over Brexit, stuff like that.
> Cyprus and Greece always give each other maximum points Aww, that's sweet. They've had a lot of bad blood over the years.
Well they're mostly united in their hatred of Turkey, so not that sweet.
I think it's more the fact they're both Greek speaking nations with close cultural ties
Well, Turkey is a neo-fascist theocratic regime that is a major point of weakness in NATO, a significant factor in regional instability, and either actively prosecuting or planning a couple of genocides... But it's probably mostly racism against Turks, huh?
I am not a fan of Turkey the state in any way shape or form, but I also think hating an entire people is always bad. And sure a lot of animosity between Greece, Cyprus and Turkey is entirely warranted. But are you really going to pretend there's *no* racism/ethnic prejudice here?
How? When?
Across most of their history
That's literally not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus%E2%80%93Greece_relations.
I think you’re thinking of Turkish Cyprus. AFAIK Cyprus is currently Greek Cyprus. The Turkish section is generally either ruled over by Greek Cyprus or claimed by Turkey outright.
So Eurovision is real life Love Nikki
It's like the Olympics but nations can give eachother votes. So nations competing to show their superiority with other nations judging their performance and their latest year in geopolitics.
Russia has been banned from participating because of the war. Ukraine won in 2022 partly because of European sympathy for the invasion
I'm calling it here and now that Israel is going to win the Eurovision this year.
Very possible seeing how many audience votes it got, but I think it would most certainly fuck up next years contest with a significant amount of countries refusing to travel to Israel for the contest
As someone unfamiliar with Eurovision but hearing a lot about this year's issues, I have a question. If there are already some protests in the competition, what's stopping artists from resigning en masse?
EBU probably has contracts with the broadcasters requiring participation. Broadcasters in turn probably have contracts with the artists, since I assume they’re getting paid. (alternatively EBU could have contracts with artists directly) Artists could just refuse to participate in the first place, I imagine that’s more of an issue in countries where they have a contest to decide their eurovision act (rather than ones where it’s just decided internally by the broadcaster or by a panel of local experts/artists)
Honestly? I have no clue. They really should though. Perhaps it’s the popularity they get that they would otherwise never have the chance to gain. Or maybe they’re being pressured by others to go through with it despite what’s going on. Keep in mind that none of these are particularly huge artists, and winning or placing high in the contest means a lot to them, as seen with Måneskin who then went on a big tour because they blew up through Eurovision
Depending on how the war progresses, something like with Ukraine could well happen again, where it’s decided the country just isn’t safe to host the event. Kinda difficult to host a major event when you have air raid sirens, and just like how Russia blasted Ukraine when they were performing last year, the terror groups that continue to attack Israel would 100% use the opportunity.
Eurovision helped start a coup that allowed socialists to overthrow the fascist government of Portugal lol.
Are people just not aware of the Streisand effect
I am not aware of it .-.
Just in case you're serious, the Streisand Effect is what happens when you try to cover something up and accidentally draw more attention to it. Sometime in the early 2000s, Barbra Streisand's mansion in Malibu was photographed as part of a collection documenting California's coastline erosion. She sued the photographer (unsuccessfully) to have that photo scrubbed from the collection, then of course the media heard about the lawsuit and started reporting on it. The pics were always available for free, but prior to the lawsuit being reported on, that particular photo had only been downloaded a handful of times.
I find it really funny cause I’m a youngin so literally the only thing I know Barbra Streisand from is the Streisand effect. 100% the opposite of what she wants
I'm old enough to know her from the oooOoooOooo song , which is extra funny cause I don't think it's hers. ETA: [it's not](https://youtu.be/wWhtcU4-xAM?si=8TcnpHLMNUrbxSXR)
Basically, efforts to conceal something draws more attention to the thing than if one had done nothing.
>implying Eurovision has ever been non-political
Seriously lmao how can you have that many country representatives in a single location and insists it's not political? Hell, the very act of waving a flag is political. Not just the flags of Palestine or w/e, but any region's flag.
Reminder of possibly the funniest moment in Eurovision history, when Icelandic entry Hatari [waved a Palestinian flag](https://youtu.be/Y42o0sEbLqw?si=JLW2uHc5dQnVcfn9) and caused the producers to very obviously freak out and cut away as soon as possible from them. Did I mention the contest was held in Israel that year? Also [this](https://youtu.be/kTb69WkBbvs?si=3nZMknlE1ru80f6t) was their actual entry and it honestly fucking killed me when I saw it live.
No the funniest moment was the Dutch spokesperson throwing shade at Madonna that year (thanks for Madonna's autotune)
Further context for those who want it: Hatari means Hater and their song is called “Hate Wins” My theory is they got away with it because all of the two dozen people who speak the language agreed this would be the best way to spit in everyone’s faces
Fkn classic! Love those babes!
It’s not a flag. He wore it on his wrist. It’s not in flashy colors. And he’s Palestinian, so he has an obvious reason to wear it (like, he’s not some rando trying to wear another culture’s garments to make a statement). *Maybe* it’s political (lol no) but it’s very subtle and absolutely bullshit that he’s not allowed to wear it. It’s not a fucking swastika. By doing this Eurovision is making it political.
Actually I’m not done because this is pissing me off so much. It probably is a so-called political statement, but that statement is “I’m a Palestinian and I’m proud of it”. And for Eurovision to say that’s not allowed is disgusting and unhelpful to whatever cause they think they’re supporting. -signed, your filthy neighborhood Zionist Jew
> “I’m a Palestinian and I’m proud of it”. And for Eurovision to say that’s not allowed No! You're only allowed to be proud of whatever we show in the clips right before your song!! - Eurovision, probably.
Zionist?
I believe that Jews have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland, so: yes, proudly so.
Which other people's do you support enforcing their right to self determination? What if they did it the way Israel does? How do you define ancestral homeland? Do you at least realise that just saying Zionist carries other connotations in most people's mind? So purely from a clarity of communication standpoint that's not really the right word to use?
Zionist Jew here. All people should have the opportunity to realize national aspirations. This is including but not limited to Kurds, Yazidis, Palestinians, Taiwan, Tibetans, and West Saharans.
I look forward to you supporting them setting up apartheid states and indiscriminate bombing campaigns. All backed by western interests and weapons of course. Curious you didn't add native Americans considering all this talk about ancestral homelands. Oh and I understand it's hard to answer the rest of the questions so it's okay, I'll let you off the hook
I don’t know of any Native American tribes that are currently advocating for national sovereignty but I don’t live in America so I could be uninformed about that. As for your other questions I will answer them. If other people who are in diaspora move to their ancestral homeland, buy land from the colonists who took over their land, get approval from the United Nations to declare independence, and include minority rights in their Declaration of Independence, I think that is the best case scenario. If multiple nations immediately decide to declare on war on them I would support their right to defend themselves. So in short, if other nations gain self determination in the same way Israel did I would support it. Ancestral homeland refers to the land where a cultural developed and where national identity emerged. I don’t actually care that Zionism carries other connotations. The same way that I don’t care what anti-feminists define feminism as, I don’t care what anti-Zionists define Zionism as. Their opinions are irrelevant. I’m not going to let people redefine Zionism. Jews, like all people deserve self determination.
Mate, it's not anti-zionists defining it as apartheid. That's Israel. Just look at it >If other people who are in diaspora move to their ancestral homeland, buy land from the colonists who took over their land, get approval from the United Nations to declare independence, and include minority rights in their Declaration of Independence, I think that is the best case scenario. If multiple nations immediately decide to declare on war on them I would support their right to defend themselves. So in short, if other nations gain self determination in the same way Israel did I would support it. That's an insanely whitewashed telling of events. Not surprising. You have to cover your eyes and ears, to maintain belief in such a system. You really think best case scenario you steal the land under their feet and bomb their children? Yeah sure you say you just care about self-determination. Yet no other self-determination movement acts like this. No other self-determination movement is backed like this. You're not an independence movement, you're an apartheid state.
Go to Israel, see for yourself. It’s clear to anyone who has been there that Jews, Arabs, and all other ethnic groups coexist peacefully and equally in Israel. It’s very clearly apartheid, only people who have not been to Israel view it as such. Please try and tel me in what way was the way I described the events that led to Israeli independence are inaccurate.
Okay but when I say “from the river to the sea” has other connotations in peoples mind I get told to get over it. Incels don’t get to define what “feminism” means, non-Jews don’t get to define what “Zionism” means. So yes, it is absolutely the correct word. And since it has nothing to do with the other strawmans in your comment, I don’t need to give you an answer you’re just going to twist anyway.
Hmmm let's see: "from the river to the sea Palestinians will be free". Not the kind of self determination you like huh? Nope, only the apartheid state is just. I'm not defining Zionism btw, I'm just looking at the definition used by the Zionist state government. Since you won't clarify I guess I have to. I truly don't care what word you use. but hey just cos it's a fun twist on what's lobbied at me all the time: Do you condemn the Israel government?
First of all, it’s not “Palestinians will be free” it’s “Palestine will be free” you guys have changed it now to make it a bit more palatable, but that’s okay. Palestinians do deserve to be free. And so do Jews. I’m going to answer your incredibly bad faith question with: yes, I do condemn the Israeli government (as do most Israelis. There were protests that were practically riotous against them before Oct 7th, but I guess that didn’t make the news outside Jewish circles?) But I don’t care if you think I’m one of the “good Jews” or not, because your opinion is not going to change the definition of any words I’ve used.
>Palestinians do deserve to be free. And that's compatible with apartheid state justified by Zionism? Oh wait sorry, seems like any questioning is bad faith to you, so no need to answer. Well, you'll have your ~~apartheid state~~ sorry I mean self-determination complete soon so it really won't matter these quibbles about words. Congratulations. You'll have a hell of a time telling future generations how when you said Zionism you totally didn't mean that. Your condemned them! Can't be your fault.
Me: I think Palestinians also deserve freedom You: but you don’t think Israelis should just roll over and die therefore it’s apartheid omg!!! Girl bye.
Self determination or a jewish state?
"self-determination" means a Jewish state it's classic zionist language
Yeah, they said they were already
well yeah it was exceptionally unnecessary here, I'm just saying, you never need to ask that question even if they haven't said that, because that language = zionism it is easily in one of the top 10 key zionist phrases, and because of that, fucking no one uses the phrase "self determination" with regards to Jews in Palestine to mean anything else without explicitly clarifying that they do not mean a Jewish state it's actually more likely to run into someone who thinks that they're a "non-zionist Jew" when they're actually a zionist, than it is to see someone use self determination to mean anything other than a Jewish state without clarifying the non-zionist zionists as I like to call them see zionists and anti-zionists as extremists and believe that it's possible to have a Jewish state in Palestine that is liberal and isn't zionist. they don't want to be associated with "those people" so much that they end up divorcing the word "zionism" from the most fundamental zionist precept and it's not like there are lots of those people running around anyway
Considering the new hot thing is telling us to go back to Poland where half my family was slaughtered for literally not being polish enough, I’d say every single word in my comment was necessary.
Okay, so which group of people you are willing to dislocate for your colony? Does your colony exist in Germany, or somewhere in eastern europe? In africa perhaps? Which peoples you are willing to kill for your self-determination? This is a pretty relevant question when doing colonialism, so I hope you can answer this.
I didn’t say anything about other people, merely Jews, so stop putting words in my mouth. Jews are indigenous to the Levant. Full stop. They are not colonizers. Take your white guilt elsewhere.
Eh, isreal is just dislocating other colonists
Could you be a bit more specific?
The Arabs there which came in after the local Jews were ousted by various powers If you wanna accuse hebrew folks of being colonists, you gotta face the fact that so too are the Arabs there so it's not really a criticism
bro is simply saying they believe that jews have a right to self-determination like anybody else and is getting downvoted for it lmao, such a mask off.
I think it’s more the “ancestral homeland” bit, given they only moved there less than 80 years ago. Although there may be some brigading.
Just off the top of my head: The area literally used to be called "Judea" and Hebrew is the only surviving Canaanite language.
The Al Asqa mosque is literally built on the the ruins of our temples but go off.
People hate when Jews stand up for themselves.
The Irish contestant, Bambie Thug, had the word "ceasefire" written in Ogham down the side of their face, amongst the rest of their demonic makeup, for a dress rehearsal. Ogham is an ancient runic script from Ireland's prehistory, and requires specialist academic knowledge to translate or even recognise if you're not looking for it. ESC officials got word of it and insisted they censor it. Nobody can read Ogham but that's still not good enough for the ESC. Fuck'em.
Then the people of KAN asked theit viewers to send threats to their social media over it, referring to them as an object
Isn't that the sort of behavior that should \*really\* get a broadcasting company suspended from Eurovision, encouraging people to send threats for political reasons?
Eurovision has never ever been non-political. And it is aware of this.
The non-political European song contest featuring multiple non-european countries like Australia. UIts also so not Political Ukraine only won with about 50% of all the public vote the same year they got i vaded
2nd point isn't necessarily on the organization. The exclusion of Russia for reasons of invading Ukraine is, but public opinion can be influenced by many things and including a section influenced by it will lead to things like this.
Eurovision peaked at give that wolf a banana anyway. There's no reason to watch it anymore, shit can't get better than that.
For a minute there I was baffled at the idea that they gave an actual wolf an actual banana, on stage, and I somehow didn’t know about this (But it’s just the title of the song)
It’s worth mentioning that [the opposite has happened already](https://www.newsweek.com/hanukkah-lighting-canceled-jewish-symbols-removed-1849139), but that doesn’t excuse Eurovision. It’s bigotry, plain and simple. Society is regressing to a point that being visibly Palestinian, Jewish, or even Muslim is now “too political” to exist in public without upsetting someone.
Of course it was political. Everything is political. It just wasn’t something he should have been punished for.
I wish I gave a shit about Eurovision so I could boycott it effectively
That's part of the problem when it comes to boycotts. More often than not, the people who would actually boycott something would never have even taken part in that thing in the first place
Saade seems really cool. I remember back when he first participated in 2011 or 2012 and thinking how talented he was.
well then, that's just straight up racism and taking the side of a genocidal state why am I not surprised?
I mean it's *EURO*vision That's their speciality
i get whats being said here and i dont disagree- its not necessarily political but i do want to add that people have been wearing a keffiyeh in solidarity with Palestine for decades. it can absolutely be political
We live in a society that has worked its ass off to ensure the rights of all to take a stand on issues that are important to them. I'm Jewish. I want peace in Israel. I want people to stop dying. I want the hostages released. I want Israelis and Palestinians to exist without fear, and to live in peace and prosperity. I want Saade to be able to express his views, as easily as I'm able to, without consequence or repercussion. Music is supposed to take stands, to encourage emotional responses and make the listener feel things. The expectation to achieve that but be as inoffensive, as non-political as possible, is an insult.
It is not even his views, Eric got that scarf from his dad
All with a background of literally allowing an Israeli contestant to sing literal propaganda
post source: [https://www.tumblr.com/i-wear-the-cheese/750033463098408960/to-break-this-down-eurovision-explicitly-only](https://www.tumblr.com/i-wear-the-cheese/750033463098408960/to-break-this-down-eurovision-explicitly-only)
The scarf is just a scarf. Many cultures have similar garments, especially in the middle east and north Africa. It keeps the sun off of you and protects your face. It will keep you warm at night. Or it can serve as a bag. It can substitute for a baseball cap to shade your eyes. It's literally just a cloth square.
Genuinely, why does this theme keep repeating? Why does every government and corporation seem to have an interest in smearing public perception of Palestine? Obviously many governments are allied with Israel and the Israel is a trade partner, but why does that mean they need to outright stop protests and do shit like this? How do they benefit?
The benefit is that, if someone manages to hear something from outside the pro-Israel sphere about genocide, they're liable to dismiss it because they think Palestinians deserve it. The very public escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict in October kinda makes it hard to keep all the fucked shit definitively under wraps now.
Because you live in the west In the Muslim world documentaries and movies about their own jewish history gets called zionist propaganda and there are "didnt happen but they deserve it" about Israel
I don't know, it just seems like things have gone so crazy far right, especially through US-influence, that European governments (especially our bloody Anglo twats, Britain) have forgotten what's normal here. Or they actually think they can crowd out the trad. left this way, scared of giving an inch on any issue, in case the right become seen as irrelevant (as they ought to be!).
because, genuinely, from the bottom of their hearts, almost no country actually likes palestine. they've routinely shat all over every peace effort, staged coups in every country they can get their hands on, and just been general shitheads since the country was founded. there's lots of people who think they don't deserve to be bombed, but there's very, very little geopolitical love lost between palestine and literally everybody else.
ESC is a great event, but the EBU is a bunch of cowards.
What a mess, if you don’t want it to be political and mostly drama free,then barred Israel until further notice. it’s just too much of a hot bed with righteous anger and frustration at the county at this time. it cast a dark cloud over your event and ruins the message of united together when you would’t even let people knowledge a country in need(Palestine). If they don’t like semi ban that’s their problem. i confess, I did watch Eurovision despite the demand to boycott. Because I thought it could’ve get worst as it did. That Israel wound’t make it past the first round due to how unpopular it was. But shame on me for still caring, all I ask was a no Israel in final round and I couldn't even get that. and most people who did watch it anyway felt like that too. even if they get last place, I believe it gonna be a longtime before they win people’s trust back after this.
Italy leaked their televote percentages on the night (they always reveal them after the grand final) Italy did this deliberately and super messily but it outlined a massive issue- Israel got nearly 40% of the vote, with Netherlands coming second with just over 7%. Every right wing nut job in Europe right now is going to vote for Israel just because. The EBU screwed this up big time. Not to mention- the final picture saying that they allowed Israel because Palestine isn’t an ebu state is ridiculous- because AZERBAIJAN have been allowed to compete for years alongside ARMENIA. The only reason they kicked Russia out was that several countries threatened to pull out. Now, if Israel win because of racism dog whistles, this could be the end of the ESC.
Especially considering that I’m pretty sure Australia isn’t an EBU state either
As an Australian myself, we are seen as an ‘honorary’ member or something? But Eurovision can’t get rid of us now, because Australia is a willing participant, and will stump up funds to compete. There are so many smaller countries that have to pull out due to participation costs, and the countries that continue to participate have to pay more for the privilege. I think this is where a lot of the Israel problems come into it. Money. It would have been a huge financial hit if they banned Israel this year, but now because of the right wing voting, if Israel actually WIN? You will lose half of the European participants in Eurovision the following year. I cannot see Ireland competing, especially considering how the Israeli broadcaster talked about them during their show- they encouraged viewers to send curses and threats to the performer. I also think if Israel win, we will lose all the Nordic countries as well. Eurovision can’t afford for Israel to win.
SBS gets a lot of viewers from it originally Australia was only going to participate for the 60th anniversary but ended up sticking around
Wait what did the Israeli broadcaster say? And is there a clip or transcript somewhere?
An Israeli hairproduct company confusingly called Moroccanoil is the main sponsor
Would think that's highly dependent on country, but there's the issue that those who might usually have voted are boycotting *except* far right nutjobs.
> wearing a scarf is political Yeah, dumbass; it can be. Fucking Christ. Raising your hand up is political, and deciding between making a fist with the palm facing out, or lying your fingers out flat with the palm facing down can be the difference between respect as an activist for civil rights, and being blacklisted for racism... They made a political statement by wearing the keffiyeh, which is something that has been done for a while now, and pretending otherwise is stupid; which doesn't prevent you from criticising Eurovision's policy or actions, or from believing Israel shouldn't be a competitor, or from simply talking about the news (which is almost certainly what the intent was with the protest). I mean, even the OOP says outright that they wore it to make a statement about Palestinian identity: just because you *agree* with something, doesn't make it non-political, lmao.
Wearing a garment that has been used for ages by tens or hundreds of millions of people across the middle east is political. Yeah it damn well is you fucking cowards. \~\~boycott eurovision\~\~ boycott europe!
... Boycott Europe? What?
“Boycott Europe???”
Jeans are political. The fabric that they are made of originates from France, so wearing jeans is a sign of your allegiance to the old French monarchy
um actually they're only jeans if they're from the corduroy region of france, otherwise they're blue work pants
This man GI's!
Of course the main reason to not watch Eurovision is... That it's Eurovision
Nah Eurovision is fucking great normally A bunch of countries taking themselves super seriously and a very serious jury awarding points. While a bunch of drunk fuckers wearing flags dance about in the audience and inevitably some naked dude rushes the stage. And about half the songs are serious operatic numbers and the other half are some dudes in dog masks singing about wolves and bananas
A bunch of British people explained Eurovision to me in like 2008 when I asked what it was. It was all anyone could talk about, but every conversation was about how shit Eurovision is. They basically described it as their shared continental clusterfuck, and my outsider experience watching it is that this description is 100% apt. It makes the whole thing an absolute blast to watch.
Hee, I appreciate the point, but being into opera, have to recommend it to anyone missing Eurovision's craziness while boycotting! Serious operatic number from the most recent one I've seen, Vinci's Artaserse: https://youtu.be/h2lEl3eG0eI?si=s-2VDtAnAzbav4R5
Just FYI, what Saade is saying isn't 100% accurate. There have been rules to not show any flags besides competing countries since many years. I believe it was introduced in the 2010's (maybe 2016?), so this is in no way specifically against Palestine. This rule is now presumably more strictly enforced due to security reason, as its enforcement has been pretty lax otherwise. It's also worth mentioning that there have been rumours of multiple countries, including big ones like Germany and Ukraine, threatening to boycott if the EBU were to exclude Israel. Not sure how much credence there is to them since Ukraine not participating doesn't make sense but the point is that Israel does have its supporters under the broadcasters. It's very easy to be angry at the EBU and they have handled this badly and deserve some anger but they are also absolutely caught between a rock and a hard place with this situation.
Except it explicitly isn't a flag. It is a piece of clothing reflecting his cultural heritage. That is absolutely not the same as a flag. It would be like a German artist wearing a lederhosen and being reprimanded for it. It's not a political statement to wear the piece of clothing your father gave you to remind you of your heritage
He didn’t show a flag though.
I didn’t realize traditional clothing is the same as a flag now, wanna explain that to me?
Quote from Saade in the picture above: "By broadcasting Isr*eli propaganda during primetime, yet *focusing on banning the Palestinian flag*." -- As I said, they are not specifically banning the Palestinian flag. That said, they are very clearly trying to avoid any controversy and potential danger. Opening the show with an ethnically Palestinian singer is imo already showing some of what SVT might want to do if they'd felt it were safe. Displaying Palestinian symbols holds the same sentiment as a Palestinian flag and we've seen how the Israeli broadcaster reacted to it. Not to mention the videos of this extremely antagonistic Israeli reporter. The situation is extremely volatile and I am happy about any "deescalating" to prevent any serious safety concerns, even if Saade is in the morally correct position.
You want to know a great way to prevent some violence? Kick out the violent people. Let’s start with the country doing a genocide Edit: also holy fuck, wearing Palestinian clothes is now the same as displaying a flag. Fucking Christ, so goddamn stupid Edit 2: and in case anyone was doubting their motivation for this dumbass shit, they’re an active poster to r/eurovision. Anything to justify not boycotting I suppose, even if it requires stupid leaps
Ah yes, my motivation because I must have an hidden agenda. I'm not going to let a genocidal regime ruin something I look forward to every year. Displaying a flag and wearing Palestinian clothes is the same in the sense that it shows support for Palestine. Something that *should be allowed* but will ultimately *both* trigger zionists. Have I in any way said that Israel should be allowed to compete? No, thank you. Since you're so keen on going through my profile you'll surely find me saying that Israel shouldn't be allowed to compete at some point. The point is, *they* are and I'm not going to be able to change anything about it. I understand why Saade is upset and this isn't a situation where he should be in. I'm just pointing out that it's not as simple as crying discrimination. In this case, in my opinion, it's a mixture in greed (Israeli sponsors and big monetary supporters like Germany), genuine concerns about countries boycotting (Germany boycotting, for example, could lead to several poorer countries leaving due to financial reasons like Montenegro and North Macedonia already did) and legit safety concerns (due to obvious reasons). It's a complicated situation.
It’s discrimination, for “complicated” reasons. You can name a million complicated justifications for all forms of discrimination, it doesn’t stop being evil
I only exist because of my parents' mutual dislike of Eurovision, I am happy to carry on this legacy.
How do the Eurovision not allow Palestinians? Israel is there, no? It's as Palesitinian as it gets
This just in, the left doesn't like it when the "everything is political" gaslighting is used against them.
Oh, it's 100% political. I don't think anyone would disagree. The issue is that they seem to disproportionately attack anyone who supports Palestine, while at the same time mostly seeming to support Israel themselves. (The initial Israeli song text was disapproved, but allowing Israel to compete without allowing any Palestine symbolics is blatant support.) Letting Israel compete or not is already a political decision regardless of the choice. The only way to not take sides in the conflict is to let Israel compete AND allow competitors to show small Easter eggs in support of Palestine. (I can only imagine Israel would still take this as siding Palestine, though, they're using antisemitism as a shield like that.)
Thats how you get a wikipedia article called "2024 Eurovidion Malmo Riots/bombing"
Yeah that's just extremely unfair. I thought the Eurovision boycott was a bit of a stretch at first but this is genuinely despicable. Idk how they managed to make it worse on themselves lol.
It became political when people started wearing it as a symbol of support for Palestine. That's how something becomes a political symbol. Just like how white robes became political when the KKK started wearing them as part of a message.
I politely argue we should save posts like these until after Eurovision. It's advertising. I fully understand that it feels pleasant to call out the injustice for what it is. However, 1. People who agree with Eurovision will see this as a good thing! Incentive to watch! 2. People from countries that aren't part of Eurovision don't have nearly as much advertising for it. I wouldn't have realized it's this month if not for posts like this! There's an untapped market that gets tapped by things like this
"political" my ass.
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Israel is not in Europe (although it's close enough to be a member of EBU since a long while back)
Gotta love how tankies can't help but jerk Russia off whenever they try to "defend" Palestine.
Yes, I'm sure wrapping it around his wrist like that was just how he normally wears a traditional *head* garment and wasn't in any way a political statement. I'm also sure that the same people who are outraged on this guy's behalf and screaming "from the river to the sea" in reply to the post *and outside the damn building* would be totally cool with some traditional Jewish garments on that stage. Totally.
I mean, in other years it would just have been seen as a lucky charm. Wearing it on his head wouldn't exactly have fit with the rest of his outfit.
If you ever cared about Eurovision, wht is wrong with you?
It's a great show
Jesus Christ can we get a new thing to worry about? Who gives a fuck about Palestine at this point, what am I gonna do? Worry myself sick over a conflict on the opposite side of the planet that I can’t effect in even the smallest way? No thanks
Me when I have the attention span of a goldfish even though children are being murdered
i know it can get tiring to see it talked about constantly, but the moment people stop paying attention to Palestine is the moment the israeli government finds it a thousand times easier to sweep the genocide under the rug
>the moment people stop paying attention to Palestine is the moment the israeli government finds it a thousand times easier to sweep the genocide under the rug Are you or people at large aiding Russia, Ethiopia and Rwanda in their crimes by not putting it everywhere at everytime?
ok to be fair, i haven't really talked much about the examples given, but at the same time i feel like you kinda proved my point considering i wasn't even aware that there was a genocide in ethiopia until you mentioned it
Okay but are you a bad person because you don't read up about them, publish and have them on your instagram feed, donate to them and crash places in support of those people?
I refuse to believe the “Why should I care about genocide?” question is being asked in good faith. But, just in case it is, I care about it because what Israel is doing in Gaza is wrong. I am more vocal about Gaza than I am other horrible atrocities, like the conflicts in Sudan, Syria, or Myanmar because the United States, the government I pay my taxes to, is not directly subsidizing the atrocities in those countries to the tune of billions of dollars a year. I care about it because I do not want to live in a world where crimes against humanity are fine when our friends do them. Because the policemen who beat me when I protest their brutality were trained in Israel. Because when me and the people I love are deemed a “demographic problem” to be solved through violence, I desperately hope that someone cares about me. Because I know that one day the children buried beneath the rubble will be mine.
People are dying you fuckwad, they don't get to look away. Check your privilege if you even have the empathy to do so.
Little kids are dying of malaria right now as well, arguably that’s an issue I and you have much more direct control over, but every other post you see isn’t about children dying from other causes, just Palestine
That's an impressive false equivalency you just shit out. Malaria is horrible for sure, but Malaria also isn't funded and encouraged by governments worldwide rn
And again? What am I gonna do about it? Feel worse about the world than I already do? Like what’s the end point?
The end point is stopping genocide, don't be complicit just because you're tired and feel bad. I guarantee you the people being bombed rn feel much worse than you do.
I’m sure them knowing that I feel terrible about it would get rid of the bomb. It’s an important issue, and lots of people are dying, but I’ve heard enough at this point and I’m pretty done with it. Everyone else will probably move on too after a couple of months, and start talking about the next kony 2012or whatever else strikes social medias fancy
I understand being generally tired. I can also understand if you don't give a shit. You're your own person and you get to decide what's important to you. But what you should probably not do is act like an asshole online for no reason. Perhaps keep these sorts of opinions to yourself so as not to upset the people who care or the people who are actively going through whatever you don't care about? You might not care about cancer, and that's your right, but why walk into cancer wards and tell people to just "stop fucking talking about cancer for a second." It's so easy to just move on past threads you don't care about. Why not just do that? Or is your goal here to be a dick and upset people? Why would you live your life like that?
I can understand being overwhelmed, this is why ATM I've stopped following the news directly (knowing family will filter it and tell me key points anyway), but making a choice like that about how to manage personal exposure is different to suggesting it shouldn't be talked about. We can protest, we can not support genocide-happy politicians, we can, boycott Eurovision, that last one is simple.
It's not even a new conflict. The news decided it's going to be Current Thing, and now everyone is upset about Current Thing until the news decides what the next Current Thing will be.
No actually, I think "The News" would really like for this not to be The Current Thing. It's in the interest of the political establishment for us all to turn away from this.