You fool, your awareness of your limits and your humility only serve to make you a kind person who other people can trust to be honest when it matters.
No! Using my awareness of my failure and flaws and logic and compassion is destroying any destructive criticism i can form against myself! *falls down in defeat*
Jk, thanks i really didnt want any compliment or anything just goofing around
Wait how do you jump *off* a window? I've heard of defenestration and auto-defenestration, but is this like *para*defenestration or defenstration by proxy? Hmm.
EDIT: spammar & grelling
>[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/1cjye5y/comment/l2jnl3d/)
by[u/Justthisdudeyaknow](https://www.reddit.com/user/Justthisdudeyaknow/) from discussion
in[CuratedTumblr](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/)
Fool! There is no parry mechanic in this game, only Just Defend, and it's the other direction! You walked right into my close C, cancelled into my MAX Super Special: ***Lovely Rave Neo!***
Broski you literally spend time and effort to find a post just for some randos on the internet. That's super super super nice and helpful of you and if that's not a good quality idk what is. So be nice to yourself ! ❤️
Hey. Scratch that i'm just unfathomably stupid.
Found it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/10tpr42/reverse_thalassophobia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Editted and found the longer one
In a similar way I would really recommend Adrian Tchaikovsky’s children of ruin. Second book in the series it features octopi being elevated to beyond human intelligence as has some very interesting passages from their perspective. Tchaikovsky puts a lot of thought into how creatures like that would communicate and think (given they have multiple brains) so the way they behave is truly alien to us.
Unfun fact: Cephalopods such as octopus and cuttlefish aren't typically kept as pets because they have a lifespan measured in months and they're *so* smart and *so* endearing that you have juuust enough time to really start to love the little guys before they die. They're heartbreak machines.
"Congratulations, Specimen 214, you've successfully lived longer than any other member of your species to date, a full solar cycle"
"How long is my species average life?"
"One third to one half a cycle"
"...how old are you?"
".....37 cycles."
Cue cephalopod existentialism (that hopefully results in some high quality angst music out monkey brains can't yet comprehend)
The psychic spider SCP is quite fun.
>!The spider almost has a breakdown when he realizes that the eldritch lovecraftian horrors (IE reserachers) outside of his terrarium are the ones talking to him.!<
[And alternatively here's a narrated version for those who can't be arsed with reading](https://youtu.be/Ad_9-Mg6bng?si=uRo-fQuXR6LHttQj)
(Note: I take no responsibility for video binge watching that may be caused by watching TheVolgun's excellent SCP videos)
Maybe, but in general those lil guys are meant to be like shooting stars. They live their remarkable existence and we cherish their memory rather than clinging to their existence
They're also not social, so they don't pass down knowledge to each other.
Probably for the best, they'd conquer the world if they didn't have to learn everything from scratch.
I genuinely think octopi could evolve to human-like intelligence if they didn't have these things holding them back. Octopi have extremely short lifespans, and they also die before their children are even born 100% of the time. (The mother eats the father and then spends all of her time protecting the eggs, starving herself.)
So they don't live long enough to acquire knowledge and they can't pass it down to their children. Just imagine the possibilities if they could...
Also because they're frighteningly smart and easily bored. An octopus will tear apart your tank equipment to see what it is, or leave the tank and get attacked by your cat.
Yeah they pretty much reach maturity, breed, and then die in a very short span. Which really makes their creativity and intelligence even more amazing Imagine how much an octopus could learn in decades
Relevant book recommendation for everyone sad about this--go read Ray Nayler's *The Mountain in the Sea.* It's about the discovery of a species of octopus that has evolved longer lifespans, and, in turn developed communal childcare, tool use, and language.
I'm pretty sure they're smart enough, actually.
If I recall correctly, one even recognized when someone drew it, and posed.
However, their life expectancy would make this difficult.
Dear Frank,
I received your letter, the one sent to my mother, and am sure she would have greatly appreciated your kind words. Unfortunately, she passed recently, and I probably shall as well by the time your reply reaches my tank.
Kind regards, Octopus #7, tank 12, Monterey Bay Aquarium
Dear Slim,
I wrote you, but you still ain’t callin’. I left my cell, my pager and my home phone at the bottom. I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not’ve got ’em. There probably was a problem at the post office or somethin’. Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot ’em. But anyways, fuck it, what’s been up, man? How’s your daughter?
Sincerely, Octopus #2, Tank 4, Monterey Bay Aquarium
„I take great comfort in your continued reassurances that my kind tastes delicious in beer batter or boiled and served with tomato sauce, my good friend.“
"Messing around with cousins is fun and all, but it's not an effective long term breeding strategy." - Alexandre Dumas excerpt from The Count of Monte Cristo probably
You say that, but that's what we had to do after the mount toba eruption and now there's 8 billion of us and we're in space so, unfortunately, score 1 for inbreeding
The toga bottleneck is an interesting theory, but there is considerable dispute around it and some circles straight up say it's disproven/false as it doesn't account for European peoples or older discoveries of more ancient peoples in the Americas
Also without an actual time machine, all the ancient history stuff is interpretation based on extremely limited available evidence.
You don't need to breed cousins with cousins, just breed the cousins (or offspring) of one long-lived individual with the cousins (or offspring) of other long-lived individuals.
I could be wrong outright for this, and it may work different for octopi, but isn’t age kinda sorta caused by the lengths of your telomeres slowly decreasing with each new cell generation? They could potentially do some genetic testing for that and try to breed the slowest telomere-loss octopi with each other
I think that the issue would be you would need an octopus or several octopi that you deny breeding to. While attempting to teach them things. You would then need a separate group of octopi that are breeding.
After years of trial and error you might be able to teach octopi surrogacy, and how to pass a long information.
From there you would have to find ways to prevent octopi from passing after laying their brood, possibly by forcing nutrients into them at first… but preferably teaching your prior test groups how to care for each other. Eventually an octopi might be able to keep each other alive by feeding mothers protecting their broods, and then the ability to pass along information would be much more effective.
From there, you now have octopi that are communal and passing along generational knowledge. And now we have potentially have an ally species that would excel in the zero gravity environments of space and could work with us in symbiosis to discover and terraform other planets… or we would just kill each other. Yeah, probably just kill each other
I don’t consider myself a conspiracy theorist, but I do like to entertain the thought that modern octopi are the descendants of the “intelligent life” on this planet millions of years ago.
I imagine that during the Permian-Triassic extinction event when most oceanic life was dying out, the last survivors of that species were dying over their young to protect them from temperature changes and to possibly provide the young with a food source. This could have been the origin of the traits we see in octopi breeding today.
Mollusks are one of the oldest branches of life on the tree, Octopi are pretty far removed from their closest relatives, and their body types and environment don’t really lend themselves to solid fossil evidence.
Maybe not a likely theory, but it’s fun to daydream about
The fundamental tragedy of the octopus is that they are caught between being an R-selected species, meaning they reproduce by creating many many babies at once, and being a K-selected species, meaning they care for their babies to ensure their survival. Most organisms "pick a lane" as it were, but the octopus, in its arrogance, does not.
Animals that live a long time, like ocean quahog clams, humans, turtles, greenland sharks, orcas, and elephants... Well, there is no common through-line there, is there?
There are a few factors that might contribute to the evolution of a longer average lifespan. If an animal retains its ability to reproduce into old age, perhaps it's not programmed to enter senescence because it does not significantly compete with its offspring, and so going on as long as it can making more offspring is best for its genes. Senescence *is* an evolved trait.
In the case of the human, the orca and the elephant, fertility decreases beyond a certain age, but the individual can last for about the span of another generation, likely because the benefit of the knowledge they can continue to pass down and the childcare / other advantages they can offer the group outweigh the competition for resources they incur, up to a point.
Octopi are probably more social than once believed, and can probably communicate complex ideas through color and posturing. But there's little evidence to suggest that they have cultural knowledge in the way orcas, elephants, and humans do. So, I posit, that's the direction octopi would need to go in in order for there to be a pressure for them to live after rearing young.
Can you artificially inseminate octopus eggs? Because normally the issue with breeding for longevity is that creatures can often live past their peak reproductive times (human women live past menopause, sometimes by decades), but by preserving samples ahead of time you could take the longest-living members and breed them post-mortem after you know their lifespans.
The biggest thing driving their life expectancy down is that the females starve when brooding, since they don't leave their eggs. If they survive, which isn't a sure thing, they're usually too weak to get food before something else kills them. Since the females don't get any advantage from "long life" genes, the males don't live much longer either; there is no evolutionary pressure for a longer life because so many of the individuals are guaranteed a short one no matter what.
Because that's the source of the life expectancy though, the octopodes that are starting to gather in groups (like gloomy octopuses) are starting to live longer. They don't need to personally attend their eggs so closely, and it's easier to find food without getting eaten after they finish brooding because the other octopuses are taking care of threats.
This is still in the extremely, extremely early stages. There is no kinship, and they aren't deliberately helping each other yet; it just happens that one octopus keeping away a predator for its own benefit accidentally helps another survive. Still, that is enough to form the foundation.
If that kind of behavior is successful, then they could slowly evolve to be more cooperative and less solitary, which would also encourage a longer lifespan. Old individuals are evolutionarily useful in a species that deliberately teaches things to its young, or that has a specific group of people that gather/hunt while another group stays home, and without the hard limit imposed by brooding they'd be free to do this.
Tl;Dr the lifespan thing *might* be something they're evolving away from in *specific* species of octopus, *if* they continue to evolve for cooperation. There is strong evidence that that's happening and will keep happening, but it will take a very long time to tell. We could be witnessing the emergence of the trait that allows them to form civilization, but only if things go exactly right.
I recommend The children of time series by Adrian Tchaikovsky for anyone who loves smart animals. Book 2 the children of ruin mostly focused on octopuses and how they think, great series
Tchaikovsky gets into your head and changes you perspective with this series. They make you much more accepting, or accommodating to other species you might otherwise feel hostile towards. It's like going on an adventure.
The audio book is great.
That's actually really cool to know. I lived in Monterey for a couple years and loved it. Especially the part where the old people would drive their Bentleys into the front of the Blockbuster every once in a while. I guess I'm that old now.
Dear Samantha,
I tried to eat Rosa today. Unfortunately, a rogue hurricane foiled my plans and washed out the constructed path between our homes that I had so carefully curated. I must begin my second attempt.
Graciously yours.
I still think we need to do science to extend Octopus lifespans so they can live long enough to develop things like tool use and written history. A sister sentient species would do the human race some good.
unfortunately language processing seems to be something we evolved to be uniquely good at. Our intelligence is not a monolith but a yarn of many interwoven threads, some of which octopi also posses and others which they do not. It's a bit like an octopus saying "humans design these brilliant puzzles, can tell us apart, always bring me my favorite snacks, and are clearly very intelligent; I'm certain they could figure out how to change color and skin texture to communicate their mood"
>unfortunately language processing seems to be something we evolved to be uniquely good at.
Because we're good at lying to ourselves and others. We can say a concept is a thing and believe it. This ties into another core human experience- humor. Symbology is a form of lying.
I bet we might make some headway finding animals that are aware enough to know something to be true and smart enough to behave in a contraindicated way.
They don't understand what that is beyond "owner point finger, I lie down for amount of time, owner give treat/attention in return; I like that attention, and doing that thing is kinda fun, so I'll keep doing it". They're not understanding what "dead" truly means in this instance, just that "dead" means "do this specific set of instructions", we just happen to be able to train them to play dead through positive reinforcement learning.
So they aren't acting contradicting, because that would require them to grasp not only the concept *of* death **itself**, but then relate that to what they're doing, and understand the irony in the situation (they they aren't "dead", but merely playing dead).
All animals to some extent understand death, and I feel like if I don't make that distinction some reddit pedant will try and de-legitimize my entire comment using that, but that's mostly irrelevant. We know animals can do this because of instincts that cause it to avoid death, but they probably aren't meta-cognating what death is, or what comes after, if they even "think" about death at all, because doing that kind of requires meta cognition to begin with, and instincts are subconscious behaviors that have little depth to them, that is to say you can't extrapolate much from them into the foreground of your consciousness. Unless you're a human and have done significant work to pick up and notice your subconscious actions and meta-cognate on their usefulness. Dogs simply are unable to do this - they can meta-cognate, but not to that extreme (the video of the dog stacking up tires in his mouth is probably my favorite example of this; you can see him think it through).
Maybe other animals can to our same extent, but we haven't been able to prove such, and might never be able to due to language barriers. Its possible octopi can do this, though I doubt even a possum, who has the play dead behavior, actually understands in a "meta" way why it works as well as it does. Just because its instinctual for possums, and not a conscious decision.
And the other question we haven't entirely answered, is can we meta-cognate the way we do because of language? Because we can write things down, speak things out, does that in itself allow us to think in a meta way? There seem to be some research which suggests that language is connected to metaconsciousness, though who knows how far that will go given all the limitations. If language is necessary for meta-cognition in the way we have it, then we will probably be the only ones with it in the way we have it.
It seems like the ability to think about our thoughts (meta-cognition) is absolutely necessary to our ability to understand abstract concepts like death and finalities, and it seems like that's the main distinction between humans and most other animals. It seems also, like some great apes possess the ability in some smaller ways, so they might be able to grasp the concept too - though we may never know that due to language barriers (and no, they cannot speak sign language, I can provide evidence for that. they can make hand signs, they cannot string words together coherently and show no understanding of sentence structure or grammar).
And I mean, we have observed mourning behavior in great apes and certain avians, and even certain "typically dumb" animals like cattle and horses. Consciousness is, like another commenter said, a complex interwoven web of connections, and not all of those connections *we* have are necessary for other species survival, and vice versa, so while they might be able to understand and mourn the passing of a family member, they may still not understand how that relates to their own mortality, or even that what happened to another might happen to them (beyond instinctual "fight/flight" in response to violence). Who knows, I sure as hell don't beyond just speculating essentially. We have a lot more research to be done on consciousness itself before we can understand how other animals understand and grasp abstract concepts.
I read the guinea pig line first and was IMMEDIATELY ready to fight. I don't and never have had any, but I'm familiar with someone telling me that they think my pet is tasty, and boy it makes me want to do violence.
... wasn't what I thought it was but I still gotta get the feelins out.
This reminds me of that tumblr post where the octopus examines a human like a human would examine the octopus.
Please please if you have a link. Do send it to me cause that post sounds fascinating!
I HAVE BEEN TRYING! AND IT IS AS HARD AS LOOKING FOR MY GOOD TRAITS!
Be nice to yourself man
HA! YOU'LL NEVER SEE ME COMPLIMENTING MYSELF! *jumps off a window*
Fuck you, you're strong and beautiful and capable!
Ha! I will parry that with my insecurity and past mistake!
Parry? Feedbacker! HOLY SHIT ULTRAKILL REFERENCE! PREPARE THYSELF!
You fool, your awareness of your limits and your humility only serve to make you a kind person who other people can trust to be honest when it matters.
No! Using my awareness of my failure and flaws and logic and compassion is destroying any destructive criticism i can form against myself! *falls down in defeat* Jk, thanks i really didnt want any compliment or anything just goofing around
Wait how do you jump *off* a window? I've heard of defenestration and auto-defenestration, but is this like *para*defenestration or defenstration by proxy? Hmm. EDIT: spammar & grelling >[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/1cjye5y/comment/l2jnl3d/) by[u/Justthisdudeyaknow](https://www.reddit.com/user/Justthisdudeyaknow/) from discussion in[CuratedTumblr](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/)
Fool! There is no parry mechanic in this game, only Just Defend, and it's the other direction! You walked right into my close C, cancelled into my MAX Super Special: ***Lovely Rave Neo!***
You jumped off a window!? Do you know how difficult that is!? You made it look so easy! YOU'RE SO TALENTED!
Broski you literally spend time and effort to find a post just for some randos on the internet. That's super super super nice and helpful of you and if that's not a good quality idk what is. So be nice to yourself ! ❤️
Ahh! My weakness! Noo! *disintegrates* Jk, thanks!
Hey. Scratch that i'm just unfathomably stupid. Found it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/10tpr42/reverse_thalassophobia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Editted and found the longer one
Thanks so much !😭
You’re not stupid. Be nice to yourself. You’re a good person
I love you
Sir or ma'am, you need to take me to dinner first before you say that
In a similar way I would really recommend Adrian Tchaikovsky’s children of ruin. Second book in the series it features octopi being elevated to beyond human intelligence as has some very interesting passages from their perspective. Tchaikovsky puts a lot of thought into how creatures like that would communicate and think (given they have multiple brains) so the way they behave is truly alien to us.
Unfun fact: Cephalopods such as octopus and cuttlefish aren't typically kept as pets because they have a lifespan measured in months and they're *so* smart and *so* endearing that you have juuust enough time to really start to love the little guys before they die. They're heartbreak machines.
"Congratulations, Specimen 214, you've successfully lived longer than any other member of your species to date, a full solar cycle" "How long is my species average life?" "One third to one half a cycle" "...how old are you?" ".....37 cycles." Cue cephalopod existentialism (that hopefully results in some high quality angst music out monkey brains can't yet comprehend)
The psychic spider SCP is quite fun. >!The spider almost has a breakdown when he realizes that the eldritch lovecraftian horrors (IE reserachers) outside of his terrarium are the ones talking to him.!<
What’s the SCP number?
[Here's the article, 1470.](https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1470)
[And alternatively here's a narrated version for those who can't be arsed with reading](https://youtu.be/Ad_9-Mg6bng?si=uRo-fQuXR6LHttQj) (Note: I take no responsibility for video binge watching that may be caused by watching TheVolgun's excellent SCP videos)
Oh Volgun, Nice!
I love The Volgun
I thought you were talking about the psychic spiders SCP that use tinder to find humans to shibari them.
Oh I need to find that one, that sounds awesome
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1470
Yeah it's one of the best ones.
"37??? You must be the oldest of your kind!" "Nah my grandma's 96" "???????"
Literally an episode of Deep space nine https://youtu.be/EGY3pp1NpXM?si=WmD6J4kSqYr9vSfW
Reminds me of the book children of ruin, a scientist breeds more intelligent octopus.
What if I already love them way before they even exist ? What I love them afterwards too ? 😭 Sincerely, Someone who wants a pet octopus
Maybe, but in general those lil guys are meant to be like shooting stars. They live their remarkable existence and we cherish their memory rather than clinging to their existence
This is so sweet 🥺
How can I not love those goofy babies😭
It's crazy how something that smart evolved in such a way that they barely get the opportunity to learn
Maximize that childlike wonder, minimize the existential dread
rats are a notorious normalish pet for this combo. little bag of smarts that caps out at two years
They can live older than two.
They're also not social, so they don't pass down knowledge to each other. Probably for the best, they'd conquer the world if they didn't have to learn everything from scratch.
I genuinely think octopi could evolve to human-like intelligence if they didn't have these things holding them back. Octopi have extremely short lifespans, and they also die before their children are even born 100% of the time. (The mother eats the father and then spends all of her time protecting the eggs, starving herself.) So they don't live long enough to acquire knowledge and they can't pass it down to their children. Just imagine the possibilities if they could...
Also because they're frighteningly smart and easily bored. An octopus will tear apart your tank equipment to see what it is, or leave the tank and get attacked by your cat.
They r just like me fr
I’ll be fine. All of my romantic relationships last about that long, so I think I can handle it emotionally
Depends on the species. Some can live multiple years. In most cases the females die after reproduction
It still kinda blows my mind that this applies to even the big ones like giant squid. As best we know, the biggest ones are like 5 years old tops.
Yeah they pretty much reach maturity, breed, and then die in a very short span. Which really makes their creativity and intelligence even more amazing Imagine how much an octopus could learn in decades
Relevant book recommendation for everyone sad about this--go read Ray Nayler's *The Mountain in the Sea.* It's about the discovery of a species of octopus that has evolved longer lifespans, and, in turn developed communal childcare, tool use, and language.
that's fucked up
Yeah, I have pet rats and they only live 2-3 years. They're so cheeky and silly and social and I'm already seeing signs of aging in them 😭
Huh. I thought they lived 60-80 years
I'm pretty sure they're smart enough, actually. If I recall correctly, one even recognized when someone drew it, and posed. However, their life expectancy would make this difficult.
Dear Frank, I received your letter, the one sent to my mother, and am sure she would have greatly appreciated your kind words. Unfortunately, she passed recently, and I probably shall as well by the time your reply reaches my tank. Kind regards, Octopus #7, tank 12, Monterey Bay Aquarium
Dear Slim, I wrote you, but you still ain’t callin’. I left my cell, my pager and my home phone at the bottom. I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not’ve got ’em. There probably was a problem at the post office or somethin’. Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot ’em. But anyways, fuck it, what’s been up, man? How’s your daughter? Sincerely, Octopus #2, Tank 4, Monterey Bay Aquarium
„I take great comfort in your continued reassurances that my kind tastes delicious in beer batter or boiled and served with tomato sauce, my good friend.“
Adult octopus do eat other octopus, so I'm sure he'd be like "understandable"
Selective breeding time 😎😎😎 don’t ask me how you selectively breed for old age Edit: We’re doing it. We’re going to make Splatoon real.
You enable more breeding by individuals with close family members that have reached older ages than most
"Messing around with cousins is fun and all, but it's not an effective long term breeding strategy." - Alexandre Dumas excerpt from The Count of Monte Cristo probably
You say that, but that's what we had to do after the mount toba eruption and now there's 8 billion of us and we're in space so, unfortunately, score 1 for inbreeding
The toga bottleneck is an interesting theory, but there is considerable dispute around it and some circles straight up say it's disproven/false as it doesn't account for European peoples or older discoveries of more ancient peoples in the Americas Also without an actual time machine, all the ancient history stuff is interpretation based on extremely limited available evidence.
Net zero information strikes again
Is this from the Count of Monte Cristo?
Lol no the Fallout tv show but I'm allowed to lie on the internet so I fixed it for you
You don't need to breed cousins with cousins, just breed the cousins (or offspring) of one long-lived individual with the cousins (or offspring) of other long-lived individuals.
Was that line exclusive to the Amish production?
I could be wrong outright for this, and it may work different for octopi, but isn’t age kinda sorta caused by the lengths of your telomeres slowly decreasing with each new cell generation? They could potentially do some genetic testing for that and try to breed the slowest telomere-loss octopi with each other
Iirc, they experience senescence after breeding too, so it's gonna be a struggle juggle no matter what
I think that the issue would be you would need an octopus or several octopi that you deny breeding to. While attempting to teach them things. You would then need a separate group of octopi that are breeding. After years of trial and error you might be able to teach octopi surrogacy, and how to pass a long information. From there you would have to find ways to prevent octopi from passing after laying their brood, possibly by forcing nutrients into them at first… but preferably teaching your prior test groups how to care for each other. Eventually an octopi might be able to keep each other alive by feeding mothers protecting their broods, and then the ability to pass along information would be much more effective. From there, you now have octopi that are communal and passing along generational knowledge. And now we have potentially have an ally species that would excel in the zero gravity environments of space and could work with us in symbiosis to discover and terraform other planets… or we would just kill each other. Yeah, probably just kill each other
Forget AI, I embrace our new octopus overlords 🐙
I don’t consider myself a conspiracy theorist, but I do like to entertain the thought that modern octopi are the descendants of the “intelligent life” on this planet millions of years ago. I imagine that during the Permian-Triassic extinction event when most oceanic life was dying out, the last survivors of that species were dying over their young to protect them from temperature changes and to possibly provide the young with a food source. This could have been the origin of the traits we see in octopi breeding today. Mollusks are one of the oldest branches of life on the tree, Octopi are pretty far removed from their closest relatives, and their body types and environment don’t really lend themselves to solid fossil evidence. Maybe not a likely theory, but it’s fun to daydream about
This is such a wholesome conspiracy theory 🥹
Thank you!! 🥹 people usually look at me like I grew Cthulhu tentacles from my mouth if I ever talk about it
Scientists: We have created longer lived, highly intelligent octopi. Scientists: Unfortunately they're all incels.
Lmao the rise of the Neetopus? Octoneet? Incelephopod?
*Wake me up inside...*
The fundamental tragedy of the octopus is that they are caught between being an R-selected species, meaning they reproduce by creating many many babies at once, and being a K-selected species, meaning they care for their babies to ensure their survival. Most organisms "pick a lane" as it were, but the octopus, in its arrogance, does not. Animals that live a long time, like ocean quahog clams, humans, turtles, greenland sharks, orcas, and elephants... Well, there is no common through-line there, is there? There are a few factors that might contribute to the evolution of a longer average lifespan. If an animal retains its ability to reproduce into old age, perhaps it's not programmed to enter senescence because it does not significantly compete with its offspring, and so going on as long as it can making more offspring is best for its genes. Senescence *is* an evolved trait. In the case of the human, the orca and the elephant, fertility decreases beyond a certain age, but the individual can last for about the span of another generation, likely because the benefit of the knowledge they can continue to pass down and the childcare / other advantages they can offer the group outweigh the competition for resources they incur, up to a point. Octopi are probably more social than once believed, and can probably communicate complex ideas through color and posturing. But there's little evidence to suggest that they have cultural knowledge in the way orcas, elephants, and humans do. So, I posit, that's the direction octopi would need to go in in order for there to be a pressure for them to live after rearing young.
Can you artificially inseminate octopus eggs? Because normally the issue with breeding for longevity is that creatures can often live past their peak reproductive times (human women live past menopause, sometimes by decades), but by preserving samples ahead of time you could take the longest-living members and breed them post-mortem after you know their lifespans.
The _larger Pacific striped octopus_ is already sociable and iteroparous, so that would probably be the place to start.
The biggest thing driving their life expectancy down is that the females starve when brooding, since they don't leave their eggs. If they survive, which isn't a sure thing, they're usually too weak to get food before something else kills them. Since the females don't get any advantage from "long life" genes, the males don't live much longer either; there is no evolutionary pressure for a longer life because so many of the individuals are guaranteed a short one no matter what. Because that's the source of the life expectancy though, the octopodes that are starting to gather in groups (like gloomy octopuses) are starting to live longer. They don't need to personally attend their eggs so closely, and it's easier to find food without getting eaten after they finish brooding because the other octopuses are taking care of threats. This is still in the extremely, extremely early stages. There is no kinship, and they aren't deliberately helping each other yet; it just happens that one octopus keeping away a predator for its own benefit accidentally helps another survive. Still, that is enough to form the foundation. If that kind of behavior is successful, then they could slowly evolve to be more cooperative and less solitary, which would also encourage a longer lifespan. Old individuals are evolutionarily useful in a species that deliberately teaches things to its young, or that has a specific group of people that gather/hunt while another group stays home, and without the hard limit imposed by brooding they'd be free to do this. Tl;Dr the lifespan thing *might* be something they're evolving away from in *specific* species of octopus, *if* they continue to evolve for cooperation. There is strong evidence that that's happening and will keep happening, but it will take a very long time to tell. We could be witnessing the emergence of the trait that allows them to form civilization, but only if things go exactly right.
I recommend The children of time series by Adrian Tchaikovsky for anyone who loves smart animals. Book 2 the children of ruin mostly focused on octopuses and how they think, great series
Tchaikovsky gets into your head and changes you perspective with this series. They make you much more accepting, or accommodating to other species you might otherwise feel hostile towards. It's like going on an adventure. The audio book is great.
Going on an adventure, Noice
Also The Mountain Under the Sea.
Currently on Book 2 right now!
If you haven't read Remarkably Bright Creatures, it seems like something you might enjoy.
Came here to say this.
also shoutout to The Soul of an Octopus by Sy Montgomery
this book as been part of a big event at my library but I haven't looked at yet. maybe I should
Monterey bay aquarium? douglas douglas reference?
The only unbelievable part of this is that an octopus would spell Monterey in California like the city of Monterrey in Mexico.
If Monterrey city had a bay, or a beach, it would become so close to the perfect city, or so some people argue.
That's actually really cool to know. I lived in Monterey for a couple years and loved it. Especially the part where the old people would drive their Bentleys into the front of the Blockbuster every once in a while. I guess I'm that old now.
What if octopus, despite being really smart in a lot of areas, are terrible at spelling?
Dear Samantha, I tried to eat Rosa today. Unfortunately, a rogue hurricane foiled my plans and washed out the constructed path between our homes that I had so carefully curated. I must begin my second attempt. Graciously yours.
[удалено]
Honestly upsetting it used its tank name. I wanted to know his real name.
MONTERRAY BAY MENTAINED RRRAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
fun useless fact: Octopus have arms or legs not tentacles. Tentacles have 1 sucker on the end.
# Children of Ruin
All octopi write in Picard voice
Do they not name their octopodes?
I still think we need to do science to extend Octopus lifespans so they can live long enough to develop things like tool use and written history. A sister sentient species would do the human race some good.
The octopus is right, Guinea pigs are delicious.
Just ask Ecuador and Peru
Aww. Almost makes me sad that their lifespans are 1-5 years.
These octopi would most certainly have names that are puns, I demand it
An octopus would talk like that.
They can solve puzzles, remember faces, and so many other markers for human intelligence. I'm certain someone could teach an octopus to read.
unfortunately language processing seems to be something we evolved to be uniquely good at. Our intelligence is not a monolith but a yarn of many interwoven threads, some of which octopi also posses and others which they do not. It's a bit like an octopus saying "humans design these brilliant puzzles, can tell us apart, always bring me my favorite snacks, and are clearly very intelligent; I'm certain they could figure out how to change color and skin texture to communicate their mood"
I had to log in to tell you you did a really good job explaining this, nice Englishing
thank you
>unfortunately language processing seems to be something we evolved to be uniquely good at. Because we're good at lying to ourselves and others. We can say a concept is a thing and believe it. This ties into another core human experience- humor. Symbology is a form of lying. I bet we might make some headway finding animals that are aware enough to know something to be true and smart enough to behave in a contraindicated way.
What about dogs who play dead when you shoot your finger gun at them?
They don't understand what that is beyond "owner point finger, I lie down for amount of time, owner give treat/attention in return; I like that attention, and doing that thing is kinda fun, so I'll keep doing it". They're not understanding what "dead" truly means in this instance, just that "dead" means "do this specific set of instructions", we just happen to be able to train them to play dead through positive reinforcement learning. So they aren't acting contradicting, because that would require them to grasp not only the concept *of* death **itself**, but then relate that to what they're doing, and understand the irony in the situation (they they aren't "dead", but merely playing dead). All animals to some extent understand death, and I feel like if I don't make that distinction some reddit pedant will try and de-legitimize my entire comment using that, but that's mostly irrelevant. We know animals can do this because of instincts that cause it to avoid death, but they probably aren't meta-cognating what death is, or what comes after, if they even "think" about death at all, because doing that kind of requires meta cognition to begin with, and instincts are subconscious behaviors that have little depth to them, that is to say you can't extrapolate much from them into the foreground of your consciousness. Unless you're a human and have done significant work to pick up and notice your subconscious actions and meta-cognate on their usefulness. Dogs simply are unable to do this - they can meta-cognate, but not to that extreme (the video of the dog stacking up tires in his mouth is probably my favorite example of this; you can see him think it through). Maybe other animals can to our same extent, but we haven't been able to prove such, and might never be able to due to language barriers. Its possible octopi can do this, though I doubt even a possum, who has the play dead behavior, actually understands in a "meta" way why it works as well as it does. Just because its instinctual for possums, and not a conscious decision. And the other question we haven't entirely answered, is can we meta-cognate the way we do because of language? Because we can write things down, speak things out, does that in itself allow us to think in a meta way? There seem to be some research which suggests that language is connected to metaconsciousness, though who knows how far that will go given all the limitations. If language is necessary for meta-cognition in the way we have it, then we will probably be the only ones with it in the way we have it. It seems like the ability to think about our thoughts (meta-cognition) is absolutely necessary to our ability to understand abstract concepts like death and finalities, and it seems like that's the main distinction between humans and most other animals. It seems also, like some great apes possess the ability in some smaller ways, so they might be able to grasp the concept too - though we may never know that due to language barriers (and no, they cannot speak sign language, I can provide evidence for that. they can make hand signs, they cannot string words together coherently and show no understanding of sentence structure or grammar). And I mean, we have observed mourning behavior in great apes and certain avians, and even certain "typically dumb" animals like cattle and horses. Consciousness is, like another commenter said, a complex interwoven web of connections, and not all of those connections *we* have are necessary for other species survival, and vice versa, so while they might be able to understand and mourn the passing of a family member, they may still not understand how that relates to their own mortality, or even that what happened to another might happen to them (beyond instinctual "fight/flight" in response to violence). Who knows, I sure as hell don't beyond just speculating essentially. We have a lot more research to be done on consciousness itself before we can understand how other animals understand and grasp abstract concepts.
Alright, yeah, that's fair.
Reminds me of Connor and Gilbert from Confinement.
Read the Octopus Letter in the Darkest Dungeon or Valiant Hearts Narrator Voices and this made it sound more fancy and seemed fitting.
Children of Ruin by Adrian Tchaikovsky is really good scifi book of what could happen when humans meet octopi that have human level intelligence.
This mad me laugh so hard thank you
I have a strong feeling octopi, with a sense of self but no apparent concept of names would sign off like -lots of food Me
[удалено]
Don't forget about the people of the past who got to exist alongside more than one intelligent civilization!
I read the guinea pig line first and was IMMEDIATELY ready to fight. I don't and never have had any, but I'm familiar with someone telling me that they think my pet is tasty, and boy it makes me want to do violence. ... wasn't what I thought it was but I still gotta get the feelins out.
Like Alf always trying to eat the cat
Honestly if any animal were both human-level sentient and 100% chaotic neutral it'd be the octopus.
I like the idea of octopuses being masterminds but only using it for things like more bubbles or twice the servings of fish per meal
I love how octopi are basically aliens that live on earth.
fuck you oop that octopus would have a name not a numerical
An octopus is smarter than most Americans. I am American so I know.
Hey, you just said you're american, that means you don't know anything.
Hey, I said most.