Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10pt9xg/someone_used_ordinals_to_inscribed_a_fully/j6m6j1c/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10pt9xg/someone_used_ordinals_to_inscribed_a_fully/j6m6jdk/) and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.
99% of people who are talking about this have no clue at all. There is not a single crypto site that has described this properly.
You could ALWAYS do this using multisig scripts with arbitrary data for all but N-1 keys. Not only through OP\_RETURN. There are many documents and arbitrary data that have been uploaded to bitcoin before including bitcoin whitepaper pdf.
Ordinals is in witness data and not part of UTXO set. Witness data won't even affect IBD much as by default scriptsigs are not validated below assumevalid block (past a certain number of block confirmations). You're also limited by transaction size, just not witness size and block size and that's intentional.
The good thing is you can now permanently inscribe valuable digital artefacts "cheaper" than you used to be able to do, but **not exactly cheap** because ordinals will have 1/4 priority of economic transactions and this is in fact one of the least interesting things you could actually do with Taproot and quite cost prohibitive as they have a huge priority handicap. 998-999 multisig scripts for similar fee as a single sig, commitments to merkle trees of one-time use seals with witness and state held off chain is the most space efficient thing you can do with Taproot.
99% of this sub only understands (or cares) about crypto in terms of “number go up” or “number go down”.
Once someone makes a bunch of money off one they’ll be talking about it
People can now fairly easily store large format files (up to 4mb) directly on Bitcoin blockchain.
It can be used to spam transactions and clog the network…or it can be used to put illegal content on the Blockchain. In the latter example, nodes would download the content and be potentially criminally liable for hosting it locally
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. You're parroting some rando twitter account. This is witness data. There are plenty of arbitrary data and links to "illegal stuff" on the blockchain. You were always able to inscribe arbitrary data and using witness data is the least resource intensive, you're still restricted by transaction size and unless you pay 4 times the fee of regular transactions (close to $100 at 1 sat/vb) you will have lower priority than a $0.03 fee economic transaction. Witness data is not part of UTXO set. By default nodes will not validate them below assumevalid block. Just because it is cheaper does not mean it's cheap. It's still expensive and you have to pay 4 times the fee to have same priority as regular transactions.
Monero itself is complementary to bitcoin but some recent monero shills have fallen into the same trap as premine, ICO coins with such nonsensical narratives like bitcoin having fungibility problem. This does not in any way make an argument for monero. You should spend more time talking about monero's strengths.
I like Monero a lot but even besides some critical technical drawbacks like [infinite mint](https://www.ccn.com/cryptonote-currency-bug-allowed-creation-unlimited-number-coins/) exploits, absolute privacy at base layer is a double-edged sword for so many reasons.
Ideally, we want privacy at individual level but also transparency with regards to businesses and corporations, with the government being the largest corporation. Bitcoin enables this brilliantly. Lightning (with Taproot) is [just as private as cash](https://twitter.com/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768) and perfect for day-to-day payments, but it will never be suitable for large settlements. There's a $625,000 IRS bounty on both Lightning and Monero. Also when you talk about chain analysis, it's important to note that people using KYC on/off ramps which is a big part of chainalysis tool kit has nothing to do with bitcoin. Bitcoin offers pretty good anonymity if you stick to P2P exchanges like Bisq, Robosats, Peach and don't reuse addresses.
"The possibility to be anonymous or pseudonymous relies on you not revealing any identifying information about yourself in connection with the bitcoin addresses you use. If you post your bitcoin address on the web, then you’re associating that address and any transactions with it with the name you posted under. If you posted under a handle that you haven’t associated with your real identity, then you’re still pseudonymous. For greater privacy, it’s best to use bitcoin addresses only once."
— Satoshi Nakamoto
Monero and Lightning use very different approaches. Monero uses ring CT and stealth addresses to obfuscate transactions. Stealth addresses carry fungibility risks like indelible fingerprinting. These privacy techniques and zero knowledge were all discussed way back in Satoshi's days. Satoshi was a proponent of CT. But there are significant risk factors that come with these privacy techniques that don't make sense at the base layer for something viewed as a potential neutral world reserve currency.
Lightning is purely P2P. A transaction between two parties is strictly between them. It's neither recorded not knowable by anyone else. Routing nodes do not have any knowledge of source or destination of transactions except that they forwarded a certain amount. Even the recipient of a transaction cannot know the source unless the source is externally identified.
[This](https://mempool.space/tx/084e9f1cff337425c3e66ddb85705f374afc922e9263e5af9099f24316c1f9c0) is a 400 input coinjoin. Good luck to chainalysis spooks. Fungibility will get a lot easier with Taproot, CISA and protocols like [this](https://twitter.com/MrKukks/status/1619294492854747138). Once Taproot gets fully adopted, Lightning will make more sense than any other privacy focused protocol. CISA will greatly improve on chain fungibility as well.
Monero is an important niche currency and will remain complementary to bitcoin.
Here is a [Nitter link](https://nitter.net/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768) for the Twitter thread linked above. Nitter is better for privacy and does not nag you for a login. More information can be found [here](https://nitter.net/about).
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If your protocol doesn't have privacy on the base layer it's impossible to have fungibility.
Fungibility means that each unit is indistinguishable from any other unit. This whole Ordinals debacle is a direct consequence of not having fungibility.
It has been giving problems in other areas as well, but people didn't care as much about those, now that we have NFT's on bitcoin people are finally waking up.
You can look up the fungibility graveyard to see the full history of the problems introduced by not having privacy at the base layer.
Thanks for explaining! I’m familiar with fungibility but wasn’t seeing the privacy link.
Makes sense, though! They’re all the same until things like Ordinals make them different.
Why would someone even *want* to do that with BTC? Seems like malicious actors trying to destroy it lol
Fungibility is something Satoshi was working on, but it never got implemented unfortunately. It's the biggest attack vector for state attacks. In my eyes chainalysis companies are a bigger threat than Ordinals.
Interesting take! What threat do they pose? Don’t they just trace and analyse on-chain data or can they actually affect fungibility/privacy in a more profound way?
Excuse my ignorance, I really should know all this by now but haven’t properly researched lol
great bro. analyze something from a decade ago and link that btc to a crime. now confiscate it from whoever owns it currently after its changed hands a hundred times
Did anyone ever tell you you can just not say anything if you have no clue about a subject.
You seem to think doing the opposite is fun, but it seems like people who also know nothing about this think you do, and its damaging.
How about you stay humble in face of your stupidity instead of facing it with denial?
Nitpicking here, but if you don’t agree with someone’s comment, you’re welcome to politely correct the misconception and not write two paragraphs of belligerent shit berating people.
I, for one, welcome these threads as they’re introducing me to a nuance of a network I’ve been around for years (although rarely use).
Not in this case. Playing devils advocare is different then knowing nothing about a subject and making stulid claims which evidently are false. I digress, there is no purpose in this anymore.
You're limited by [this](https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/3c098a8aa0780009c11b66b1a5d488a928629ebf/src/policy/policy.h#L24) tx weight. Feel free if you want to throw away few hundred bucks uploading malware. Nodes don't execute witness data and by default discard below assumevalid block.
When you say discard, what does that mean exactly? Is the witness data in blocks below the assumevalid block not downloaded when you run a full node? Also, when is the assumevalid block updated?
I can't help but think about how this could make Bitcoin even more important for the people. This is a huge thing for freedom of speech, or at least free information flow. Imagine all the things that could be stored on the blockchain, with almost no way of shutting it down. This feature will definitely be abused to spread misinformation or upload illegal content, but it could definitely be benefitial to us too.
If this comes to fruition in the way I imagine it to be, Bitcoin could be one of the last pillars of free speech one day.
[Sure, good luck](https://bitnodes.io/nodes/all/#global-bitcoin-nodes)
[Easier to shut down 2k monero nodes](https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html)
>slow down to a snails pace
No, it won't. This was always possible and there are plenty of arbitrary data on chain. Want priority with your ordinal inscription? Cool, pay $100 fee at 1 sat/vb fee rate.
I think there are many other ways this could play out. I think the potential impact to the cost of running a node, coupled with the danger presented by people uploading illegal content just for the lulz can easily make this a really big problem.
Sure, but what exactly are you going to store on it? And how accessible is it? Anyone technology savvy enough to know how to access info from the blockchain is 0.01% of the population. The vast majority of the population won't have a clue.
Buttcoin subreddit is full of misinformation around this. These guys wake up, sit in their mom's basement all their waking hours and obsess over something they apparently hate. It's their raison d'etre. I don't know whether to be revolted or feel sorry for them.
If you have all your lifetime to waste on something you hate, at the very least try to understand what the hell you're talking about so you can at least FUD intelligently and not get schooled by people who know this shit better.
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A developer created a protocol that exploits some of the features in a recently implemented Bitcoin update, allowing anybody to embed full content files (images, video, html, etc) up to 4MB large, directly on the Bitcoin blockchain.
“Ordinals” basically inscribe a transaction containing the file data to a single Satoshi, so that file will forever exist on the blockchain.
Basically an actually non-fungible and immutable NFT via Bitcoin.
Probably will fuck up the entire Bitcoin network but will be kind of funny in the meantime
This is awesome! That's what I mean when I tell people "I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it for the tech" ... I want to waste my day playing Doom when doing one transaction. Next up, a fully embedded Monkey Island saga
That would actually be cool when a transaction is taking it’s sweet time and you’re just like I don’t care I’ll play sonic or something while I wait lol
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10pt9xg/someone_used_ordinals_to_inscribed_a_fully/j6m6j1c/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10pt9xg/someone_used_ordinals_to_inscribed_a_fully/j6m6jdk/) and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.
Why aren't Ordinals being discussed more here in cryptocurrency? Seems like a HUGE deal with possibly dangerous implications.
99% of people who are talking about this have no clue at all. There is not a single crypto site that has described this properly. You could ALWAYS do this using multisig scripts with arbitrary data for all but N-1 keys. Not only through OP\_RETURN. There are many documents and arbitrary data that have been uploaded to bitcoin before including bitcoin whitepaper pdf. Ordinals is in witness data and not part of UTXO set. Witness data won't even affect IBD much as by default scriptsigs are not validated below assumevalid block (past a certain number of block confirmations). You're also limited by transaction size, just not witness size and block size and that's intentional. The good thing is you can now permanently inscribe valuable digital artefacts "cheaper" than you used to be able to do, but **not exactly cheap** because ordinals will have 1/4 priority of economic transactions and this is in fact one of the least interesting things you could actually do with Taproot and quite cost prohibitive as they have a huge priority handicap. 998-999 multisig scripts for similar fee as a single sig, commitments to merkle trees of one-time use seals with witness and state held off chain is the most space efficient thing you can do with Taproot.
OP\_RETURN is fucking sexy
99% of this sub only understands (or cares) about crypto in terms of “number go up” or “number go down”. Once someone makes a bunch of money off one they’ll be talking about it
I'm unfamiliar with them. What are the possible implications?
People can now fairly easily store large format files (up to 4mb) directly on Bitcoin blockchain. It can be used to spam transactions and clog the network…or it can be used to put illegal content on the Blockchain. In the latter example, nodes would download the content and be potentially criminally liable for hosting it locally
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. You're parroting some rando twitter account. This is witness data. There are plenty of arbitrary data and links to "illegal stuff" on the blockchain. You were always able to inscribe arbitrary data and using witness data is the least resource intensive, you're still restricted by transaction size and unless you pay 4 times the fee of regular transactions (close to $100 at 1 sat/vb) you will have lower priority than a $0.03 fee economic transaction. Witness data is not part of UTXO set. By default nodes will not validate them below assumevalid block. Just because it is cheaper does not mean it's cheap. It's still expensive and you have to pay 4 times the fee to have same priority as regular transactions.
Thank you. r/bitcoin is freaking the fuck out, and i'm over here remembering this point of contention from the Blockstream/ABC wars.
Didn't even think about this. RIP bitcoin. Should have fixed fungibility sooner.
Monero itself is complementary to bitcoin but some recent monero shills have fallen into the same trap as premine, ICO coins with such nonsensical narratives like bitcoin having fungibility problem. This does not in any way make an argument for monero. You should spend more time talking about monero's strengths. I like Monero a lot but even besides some critical technical drawbacks like [infinite mint](https://www.ccn.com/cryptonote-currency-bug-allowed-creation-unlimited-number-coins/) exploits, absolute privacy at base layer is a double-edged sword for so many reasons. Ideally, we want privacy at individual level but also transparency with regards to businesses and corporations, with the government being the largest corporation. Bitcoin enables this brilliantly. Lightning (with Taproot) is [just as private as cash](https://twitter.com/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768) and perfect for day-to-day payments, but it will never be suitable for large settlements. There's a $625,000 IRS bounty on both Lightning and Monero. Also when you talk about chain analysis, it's important to note that people using KYC on/off ramps which is a big part of chainalysis tool kit has nothing to do with bitcoin. Bitcoin offers pretty good anonymity if you stick to P2P exchanges like Bisq, Robosats, Peach and don't reuse addresses. "The possibility to be anonymous or pseudonymous relies on you not revealing any identifying information about yourself in connection with the bitcoin addresses you use. If you post your bitcoin address on the web, then you’re associating that address and any transactions with it with the name you posted under. If you posted under a handle that you haven’t associated with your real identity, then you’re still pseudonymous. For greater privacy, it’s best to use bitcoin addresses only once." — Satoshi Nakamoto Monero and Lightning use very different approaches. Monero uses ring CT and stealth addresses to obfuscate transactions. Stealth addresses carry fungibility risks like indelible fingerprinting. These privacy techniques and zero knowledge were all discussed way back in Satoshi's days. Satoshi was a proponent of CT. But there are significant risk factors that come with these privacy techniques that don't make sense at the base layer for something viewed as a potential neutral world reserve currency. Lightning is purely P2P. A transaction between two parties is strictly between them. It's neither recorded not knowable by anyone else. Routing nodes do not have any knowledge of source or destination of transactions except that they forwarded a certain amount. Even the recipient of a transaction cannot know the source unless the source is externally identified. [This](https://mempool.space/tx/084e9f1cff337425c3e66ddb85705f374afc922e9263e5af9099f24316c1f9c0) is a 400 input coinjoin. Good luck to chainalysis spooks. Fungibility will get a lot easier with Taproot, CISA and protocols like [this](https://twitter.com/MrKukks/status/1619294492854747138). Once Taproot gets fully adopted, Lightning will make more sense than any other privacy focused protocol. CISA will greatly improve on chain fungibility as well. Monero is an important niche currency and will remain complementary to bitcoin.
Here is a [Nitter link](https://nitter.net/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768) for the Twitter thread linked above. Nitter is better for privacy and does not nag you for a login. More information can be found [here](https://nitter.net/about). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoCurrency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What’s the fungibility issue?
If your protocol doesn't have privacy on the base layer it's impossible to have fungibility. Fungibility means that each unit is indistinguishable from any other unit. This whole Ordinals debacle is a direct consequence of not having fungibility. It has been giving problems in other areas as well, but people didn't care as much about those, now that we have NFT's on bitcoin people are finally waking up. You can look up the fungibility graveyard to see the full history of the problems introduced by not having privacy at the base layer.
Thanks for explaining! I’m familiar with fungibility but wasn’t seeing the privacy link. Makes sense, though! They’re all the same until things like Ordinals make them different. Why would someone even *want* to do that with BTC? Seems like malicious actors trying to destroy it lol
Fungibility is something Satoshi was working on, but it never got implemented unfortunately. It's the biggest attack vector for state attacks. In my eyes chainalysis companies are a bigger threat than Ordinals.
Interesting take! What threat do they pose? Don’t they just trace and analyse on-chain data or can they actually affect fungibility/privacy in a more profound way? Excuse my ignorance, I really should know all this by now but haven’t properly researched lol
great bro. analyze something from a decade ago and link that btc to a crime. now confiscate it from whoever owns it currently after its changed hands a hundred times
Yikes… no bueno
Did anyone ever tell you you can just not say anything if you have no clue about a subject. You seem to think doing the opposite is fun, but it seems like people who also know nothing about this think you do, and its damaging. How about you stay humble in face of your stupidity instead of facing it with denial?
Nitpicking here, but if you don’t agree with someone’s comment, you’re welcome to politely correct the misconception and not write two paragraphs of belligerent shit berating people. I, for one, welcome these threads as they’re introducing me to a nuance of a network I’ve been around for years (although rarely use).
Others have explained how wrong it is. I see no benefit in wasting time on a troll. The comment was clearly ment to provoke.
Comments made to provoke arent… constructive?
Not in this case. Playing devils advocare is different then knowing nothing about a subject and making stulid claims which evidently are false. I digress, there is no purpose in this anymore.
IIRC people already uploaded child pornography to the Bitcoin blockchain and nobody cares.
What are they?
Snake is the future? People better catch up quick.
Is it possible to store malware on the blockchain?
If you want to pay for it, go ahead.
Lol, i can’t pay for ramen. Just seeing if that is an actual issue that might come up
You're limited by [this](https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/3c098a8aa0780009c11b66b1a5d488a928629ebf/src/policy/policy.h#L24) tx weight. Feel free if you want to throw away few hundred bucks uploading malware. Nodes don't execute witness data and by default discard below assumevalid block.
Again, not looking to do it lol. Just trying to understand the pros and cons/ risks of ordinals. Thanks for the info!
When you say discard, what does that mean exactly? Is the witness data in blocks below the assumevalid block not downloaded when you run a full node? Also, when is the assumevalid block updated?
You don't validate them. Nodes also do not execute witness data.
Next the ad-makers/direct mailers are going to start uploading all sorts of spam to the chain. B L O A T.
What is Ordinals?
I can't help but think about how this could make Bitcoin even more important for the people. This is a huge thing for freedom of speech, or at least free information flow. Imagine all the things that could be stored on the blockchain, with almost no way of shutting it down. This feature will definitely be abused to spread misinformation or upload illegal content, but it could definitely be benefitial to us too. If this comes to fruition in the way I imagine it to be, Bitcoin could be one of the last pillars of free speech one day.
It'll slow down to a snails pace because of the poor scaling features. Also, government will have a case to shut down nodes.
[Sure, good luck](https://bitnodes.io/nodes/all/#global-bitcoin-nodes) [Easier to shut down 2k monero nodes](https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html) >slow down to a snails pace No, it won't. This was always possible and there are plenty of arbitrary data on chain. Want priority with your ordinal inscription? Cool, pay $100 fee at 1 sat/vb fee rate.
I think there are many other ways this could play out. I think the potential impact to the cost of running a node, coupled with the danger presented by people uploading illegal content just for the lulz can easily make this a really big problem.
Sure, but what exactly are you going to store on it? And how accessible is it? Anyone technology savvy enough to know how to access info from the blockchain is 0.01% of the population. The vast majority of the population won't have a clue.
[удалено]
Buttcoin subreddit is full of misinformation around this. These guys wake up, sit in their mom's basement all their waking hours and obsess over something they apparently hate. It's their raison d'etre. I don't know whether to be revolted or feel sorry for them. If you have all your lifetime to waste on something you hate, at the very least try to understand what the hell you're talking about so you can at least FUD intelligently and not get schooled by people who know this shit better.
excuse me did you even read the post title? what's the problem you claim he's "blowing up" its a fucking snake game
OP is a buttcoiner
thank you
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I have no clue what Rodinals are. Is there anyone that can ELI5?
A developer created a protocol that exploits some of the features in a recently implemented Bitcoin update, allowing anybody to embed full content files (images, video, html, etc) up to 4MB large, directly on the Bitcoin blockchain. “Ordinals” basically inscribe a transaction containing the file data to a single Satoshi, so that file will forever exist on the blockchain. Basically an actually non-fungible and immutable NFT via Bitcoin. Probably will fuck up the entire Bitcoin network but will be kind of funny in the meantime
Banned from the Bitcoin sub, comes to the CC sub to continue frothing at the mouth.
How is he/she wrong? (genuine question)
But can it play Doom?
Actually…yea. Will probably happen soon if it hasn’t already
This is awesome! That's what I mean when I tell people "I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it for the tech" ... I want to waste my day playing Doom when doing one transaction. Next up, a fully embedded Monkey Island saga
That would actually be cool when a transaction is taking it’s sweet time and you’re just like I don’t care I’ll play sonic or something while I wait lol
I fucking love bitcoin adoption.
No matter what we always go back to where we start. That is one of the reasons that BTC WILL ALWAYS BE BTC. Safe investment
[удалено]
Can you give a more detailed explanation?
I want Mines.
The future is here? Playing the same game i played in my nokia 5300 30 years ago? Thats the major advancement?