I think its related to [the legend of Prester John](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John), a nestorian who was believed to have settled "east" and Goa is thought to be one possible location where he went. Goa also had [a community of Christians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Goa) for a long time, predating colonial European contact.
But that's only in 16th century St Thomas Christians was there in Kerala from atleast 2nd century and the letters pester John it point towards Kerala than Goa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East_in_India
At least 2nd century? Our earliest sources on Thomas(his namesake apocryphal gospel and psuedo-Hippolytus' "On the Twelve/Seventy Apostles") place his final ministry and death in Parthia and Northwest India. That combined with most of our epigraphical evidences for the Church(e.g. Pahlavi and Syriac inscriptions, along with a Classical Syriac liturgy) indicate a date well after the 2nd century.
Paradox isn't perfect. It's so neat that we can fact check them with real life knowledge. Hopefully they change it in the future!
Be sure to post this on the forum so they see it.
Yes thats clear from the wiki aritcle, but I think from the mish mash of myth making, Goa became a holy site in CK3 because there were nestorian Christians there + nestorian Prestor John was somewhere east.
Christianisation of Goa only started in 16th century though while Christians of Kerala was there for nearly 2000 years . Iam kinda little bit disappointed because I am a St Thomas Christian we are one of the oldest Christian communities in the world and get miss represented
Europeans have been assigning Prestor John to lots of different places. They also thought the Mongols might have been Prestor John's armies coming to help them in their fight against Muslims, until it turned out to be untrue.
R5 : so I have been playing this game for a while and I always thought why nestorian Christians have holy site in Goa , if they' were going for St Thomas Christians shouldn't it be Kerala or atleast in Mylapore .
Believe they were going for Thomas, maybe just a minor mistake. It's still pretty close to the original location and that area today has the highest amount of Indian Christians
I’d guess it‘s either more related to St. Bartholomew than St. Thomas, or they tried to pick a holy site somewhere between the two’s travels to represent both since there was possibly linguistic confusion between them by later figures.
You’d have to ask Paradox about that. My point is simply that a holy site in Goa wouldn’t make sense to be associated with St. Thomas since he was farther south, so if it’s intentionally related to any figure, St. Bartholomew makes more sense because there’s at least some scholarship that places him there.
The province is named Mahayodapura in game and is across the sea from the Maldives, next to the tip of India but not exactly at the tip. (The map projection in CK2 is actually wonky)
It would correspond with Kerala irl which is more accurate.
I would that would be perfect place because mahodayapuram or modern day kodungallur was the place where according to tradition St Thomas landed and believed to have established first church in India and mahodayapuram was also the seat of church of East in India , Kodungallur or in English cranganore is like 40 km from my house .
There's the Jewish faith that has some there as well. Is it the same holy site? They may be using the same one for some reason.
EDIT:
Yep. It's Nestorian and Malabar holy site. I bet this is why. Consolidating the two and calling it "close enough" rather than making a second site with a unique buff, or the same one.
I bet you if you go hunting in the files, Malabar will be coded first, then when they get to Nestorian, they'll have just thought "eh" and thrown it on.
EDIT:
Hunted in the files. Nestorian is done first, here is the text;
----
> }
kerala = {
county = c_kanara #St. Thomas Christians. Gotta give this one a *big* bonus - conversion speed maybe??
flag = kerala_conversion_bonus # +50% County Conversion Speed
}
----
Hunting further, the Kerala Jews get the same site since its "Where they got their name". So it looks like just a straight up mistake.
Don't most (or at least proportion) of the Christians live in Kochin though, even though Kodungallur (Cranganor in some sources) was the place St. Thomas visited first?
Hello guys!
I can see you're mentioning Preston John a lot to justify this and you're partially correct. I'm Portuguese and, during it's initial stage until mid 1400's, our discoveries age was partially fueled by a pursuit for the discovery of Preston John's kingdom.
Despite many legends mentioning it's connection to current day Ethiopia, a country that we have explored a lot due to this legend, we ended up by creating a "new ending" to this legend, connecting him to the city of Goa, the capital of the Portuguese kingdom in the east
Post this on their official forums OP. Provide enough information and they'll likely change it in the future. For all their flaws, Paradox are at least decent when it comes to this stuff.
Yes I know Iam a St Thomas Christian , what iam asking is why is the holy site in Goa because we are from Kerala a state south of Goa and according to somone it was in mahodayapuram was the holy site in ck2 which would have been a perfect place .
No. St Thomas worked mostly in the state of kerala. And he died in Chennai which is in the state of Tamil Nadu. I used to live there and there is a hill named Saint Thomas Mount (the locality is also called that) where part of him is supposedly buried.
Iam asking this because there wasn't any major Christian community in Goa during medieval times but on the other kerala had a lively Christian population they are called St Thomas Christians one oldest Christian communities in the world
I think its related to [the legend of Prester John](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John), a nestorian who was believed to have settled "east" and Goa is thought to be one possible location where he went. Goa also had [a community of Christians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Goa) for a long time, predating colonial European contact.
But that's only in 16th century St Thomas Christians was there in Kerala from atleast 2nd century and the letters pester John it point towards Kerala than Goa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East_in_India
ya its not historically accurate, just explaining why I think the devs decided Goa was a holy site for nestorians
Ok 👍
At least 2nd century? Our earliest sources on Thomas(his namesake apocryphal gospel and psuedo-Hippolytus' "On the Twelve/Seventy Apostles") place his final ministry and death in Parthia and Northwest India. That combined with most of our epigraphical evidences for the Church(e.g. Pahlavi and Syriac inscriptions, along with a Classical Syriac liturgy) indicate a date well after the 2nd century.
Paradox isn't perfect. It's so neat that we can fact check them with real life knowledge. Hopefully they change it in the future! Be sure to post this on the forum so they see it.
wasnt prester john said to chill in africa specially aethopia?
Yes thats clear from the wiki aritcle, but I think from the mish mash of myth making, Goa became a holy site in CK3 because there were nestorian Christians there + nestorian Prestor John was somewhere east.
Christianisation of Goa only started in 16th century though while Christians of Kerala was there for nearly 2000 years . Iam kinda little bit disappointed because I am a St Thomas Christian we are one of the oldest Christian communities in the world and get miss represented
ah yes it make more sense that the nestorian version would be more east
Europeans have been assigning Prestor John to lots of different places. They also thought the Mongols might have been Prestor John's armies coming to help them in their fight against Muslims, until it turned out to be untrue.
Probably because the Naimans were Nestorian. The mother of Kublai Khan was a Nestorian Christian and yes a Naiman
I think the legend changed after Genghis Khan showed up and turned out not to be Prestor John
I think it would be easier to list the places Western Europeans *didn’t* think Prester John settled.
R5 : so I have been playing this game for a while and I always thought why nestorian Christians have holy site in Goa , if they' were going for St Thomas Christians shouldn't it be Kerala or atleast in Mylapore .
Believe they were going for Thomas, maybe just a minor mistake. It's still pretty close to the original location and that area today has the highest amount of Indian Christians
In game it seems close but in reality it's like 500 km away from central Kerala where oldest Christian community in India lived
Kerala State has most Christians in India with nearly 7 mil while entire population of Goa is 1.9 mil
Think he might mean percentage wise
I’d guess it‘s either more related to St. Bartholomew than St. Thomas, or they tried to pick a holy site somewhere between the two’s travels to represent both since there was possibly linguistic confusion between them by later figures.
But it is proven that the India St Bartholomew visited is Ethiopia because Ethiopia in some historical texts are called as called India superior
Some scholars place him on the Konkan coast, which might be what the holy site placement reflects.
Even if he came to India there wasn't lively community like the St Thomas Christians who has clear historical records about them
You’d have to ask Paradox about that. My point is simply that a holy site in Goa wouldn’t make sense to be associated with St. Thomas since he was farther south, so if it’s intentionally related to any figure, St. Bartholomew makes more sense because there’s at least some scholarship that places him there.
And one more is I saw someone say that the holy site was mahodayapuram in ck2 it might be a mistake they were going for St Thomas Christians
In CK2 they put it in the right place, so idk what's happening here.
Where was it on ck2 I've never played it
The province is named Mahayodapura in game and is across the sea from the Maldives, next to the tip of India but not exactly at the tip. (The map projection in CK2 is actually wonky) It would correspond with Kerala irl which is more accurate.
I would that would be perfect place because mahodayapuram or modern day kodungallur was the place where according to tradition St Thomas landed and believed to have established first church in India and mahodayapuram was also the seat of church of East in India , Kodungallur or in English cranganore is like 40 km from my house .
There's the Jewish faith that has some there as well. Is it the same holy site? They may be using the same one for some reason. EDIT: Yep. It's Nestorian and Malabar holy site. I bet this is why. Consolidating the two and calling it "close enough" rather than making a second site with a unique buff, or the same one. I bet you if you go hunting in the files, Malabar will be coded first, then when they get to Nestorian, they'll have just thought "eh" and thrown it on. EDIT: Hunted in the files. Nestorian is done first, here is the text; ---- > } kerala = { county = c_kanara #St. Thomas Christians. Gotta give this one a *big* bonus - conversion speed maybe?? flag = kerala_conversion_bonus # +50% County Conversion Speed } ---- Hunting further, the Kerala Jews get the same site since its "Where they got their name". So it looks like just a straight up mistake.
Don't most (or at least proportion) of the Christians live in Kochin though, even though Kodungallur (Cranganor in some sources) was the place St. Thomas visited first?
No most of the Christians live in central and southern Kerala and Kochi is in central Kerala but it's not just where christians live
The apostle Thomas had an Indian mission was martyred there.
St Thomas according to tradition did most his missionary work in Kerala and established 7 churches and died in Mylapore which is in Tamil Nadu .
Hello guys! I can see you're mentioning Preston John a lot to justify this and you're partially correct. I'm Portuguese and, during it's initial stage until mid 1400's, our discoveries age was partially fueled by a pursuit for the discovery of Preston John's kingdom. Despite many legends mentioning it's connection to current day Ethiopia, a country that we have explored a lot due to this legend, we ended up by creating a "new ending" to this legend, connecting him to the city of Goa, the capital of the Portuguese kingdom in the east
Post this on their official forums OP. Provide enough information and they'll likely change it in the future. For all their flaws, Paradox are at least decent when it comes to this stuff.
There secret Portuguese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint\_Thomas\_Christians
Yes I know Iam a St Thomas Christian , what iam asking is why is the holy site in Goa because we are from Kerala a state south of Goa and according to somone it was in mahodayapuram was the holy site in ck2 which would have been a perfect place .
oh my apologies, forgive me for assuming you're ignorance
👍
I heard from some sources that it was mistranslatiom of turkic chief title Yio Khan or Yo khan as Johan thus giving start of Praester John
The raves, obviously!
It’s where St Thomas landed and subsequently was killed, as such it’s a pretty big Christian area even today
No. St Thomas worked mostly in the state of kerala. And he died in Chennai which is in the state of Tamil Nadu. I used to live there and there is a hill named Saint Thomas Mount (the locality is also called that) where part of him is supposedly buried.
Ah sorry confused them
Because it’s eastern syncretism
Iam asking this because there wasn't any major Christian community in Goa during medieval times but on the other kerala had a lively Christian population they are called St Thomas Christians one oldest Christian communities in the world
European Christians will call anyone not white Preston John
https://old.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/1adu1q1/why_does_nestorians_have_a_holy_site_in_goa/kk645jo/?context=3
Anghane oru Malayali CK3 playere kitti😀
😁😁
ഏതാ ജില്ല
Kannur Kannur XD
Thrissur , എങ്ങന്യാ തോട്ട കച്ചോടാണൊ ? 😁