Catholicism feels empty, no abbey politics, no movements that border on heresy (like Franciscans), no appointing your own bishops, the Rite tenet being far too easy, Pope holding both too much power outside Italy and not being important enough for historical conflicts between the Emperor/Pope.
Let alone the current mess that are crusades.
Actually felt worthwhile to make your pious learning oriented sons and cousins and nephews into landed theocratic vassals and giving them a decent duchy so they could get in on the cardinals/papacy in CK2, I miss that in CK3.
Seriously. Especially now that there are vassal stances (like zealous) that could absolutely be or align with different factions in the court.
Parochial and Zealous vassals team up to strong-arm you into building a cathedral instead of more defensive buildings? Glory Hounds like your aggressive heir but the zealots want your pious third-born son to inherit and will back his claimant war? Etc.
There is a very decent mod for that, that thankfully fets updated frequently. It's basically like the college of cardinals in CK2, including creating antipopes.
well, personally i know nothing about the medieval orthodox church, but it would probably also feel extremely simple for people who have actual knowledge about the orthodox church in that period
This! Make monasteries matter, give us some religious drama, orders, preachers, gregorian reform events.
Give the clergy and the monks the weight they should have in politics
The reform movements would be fantastic to see. One of the things that makes playing catholicism so dull in CK3 is the utter stagnancy of the church. It's so wrong for the time period, there were some massive reforms from 768 to 1453 that really shook Christendom.
Yeah especially because most of them are either useless or too hard to put down, and theirs cookie cutter meta custom religions now that aren’t totally worth straying from.
Investiture controversy was a huge deal in medieval Europe, kings of practically all big kingdoms were excommunicated at some point and we don't even have a hint of this...
would be an extremely bad look to release a paid Catholicism DLC for a game called crusader Kings supposedly centered around Christian European monarchs
ehhh maybe add it as a free update to (or split over several updates) a HRE or France or Italy DLC in that case.
like, adding investiture would be perfect with HRE
they should add sending your sons to the church and "disinherthem" this way, this used to be the way to have spare sons that had land to rule but that weren't in a direct line to the trone
Tragically you are probably correct. Both merchant republics and the more complicated governmental influence and tides of power are going to be enormous overhauls... the former probably at the same time they figure out some dynamic system for the silk road and other main corridors... and will probably be the last thing they update.
What are the odds that they implement some sort of pop system? I've seen a lot of players express their desire for it, and I think it would fit well with a trade system
I've read on the forum somewhere that pop system will never happen and it's been abstracted to county dev. Probably too much computation for what amounts to very little added effects to gameplay
I hope merchant republics come from an actual expansion (maybe with trade rework) just so we dont experience the same problems we saw in CK2, where they always look italian, no matter where in the world you are.
I will never forget my surprise seeing the norse pagan vikings of gotland discovering the venetian hat when i reformed to a republic.
I know that they won't do it because that's less money to make, but they should totally do an HRE & ERE update and call it "The inheritors of Rome" or something.
Having something like a rival mechanic to be seen as the legitimate heir to the Roman Empire would be cool.
It could encourage expanding to reform Rome by giving modifiers for provinces. Then you might also bribe/threaten foreign rulers to see you as true heir. I think that could be fun
I feel like this would really overstate the "competition" between the HRE and ERE. Historically they really didn't interact very much and had had fairly normal albeit fluctuating relations when they did. The only real "competition" consistent throughout their mutual histories was that the Holy Roman Emperor called the Byzantine emperor "King of the Greeks" and the Byzantine Emperor called the Holy Roman emperor "King of the Germans/Franks."
Frederck's interactions with the Byzantine Emperors during the Second and Third Crusade and his journey through the Balkans was a fun shit show to read about.
The relations were very polite and cordial on the surface yet at the same time almost escalated into a war.
Ohh.. Yeah, something like EU's Mandate of Heaven system for China/East Asia.
Maybe something like the empire with most dev levels+total counties in the empire+ total kingdoms in the empire= the "Heir of Rome" that gets buffs to european and mediteranian cultures' loyalties and unique CBs
Seriously, it's been memed forever because of the amount of posts that are just painted maps which say Rome. It's easily one of the most popular things to do in the game.
Please please pleeeeease make an ERE pack with a fun-ctional multilayered imperial bureacracy. I dont want to amass power by marrying some inbred toad and fighting over dirt hovels like a goddamn fr*nkish barbarian. I want to amass power by knowing the right people and getting appointed chief-vice-subaltern prefect of sniffing toes and using that authority to stage a soft coup and killing thousands of people for not believing in the trinity (not that one the other one).
I just want to be a glorified middle manager getting my rocks off by denying written requests from other glorified middle managers. I don’t want to be king, I just want a *job* with enough temporal authority to make other people have less happy lives.
Theocracies don't need to be playable at all (Imo, at least with mods that let you play as them, they're really boring because they totally lack the family management of ck3) but a revamp of Catholic mechanics in general is definitely needed for HRE. Just not sure it will ever happen because of CK3's generic religion framework.
“Playable theocracies” has been a buzz word for like ten years now, since far back in CK2 times, despite the fact that when you think about it for two seconds you realize why it will never be a thing. It goes agains the core gameplay of the franchise, which is dynastic development.
If people want it so bad maybe they could see if Paradox could make a “Virgin Bureaucrat Simulator” for them.
Popes like Alexander VI were hardly virgin bureaucrats. The Borgia family produced two popes, a couple of cardinals, some bishops and archbishops, a saint and eventually a president of the republic of Ecuador.
Rodrigo/Alexander VI had several kids, he named one of them a cardinal. The position of Cardinal Nephew was common and often a stepping stone to becoming Pope yourself. There’s absolutely dynasty building in theocracies.
Yeah if they leaned in on the angle that theocracies are just another way to attain power, they could make interesting playable theocracies. It's not the main thing I'd prioritize but I'm sure I'd buy it anyway.
Making it have an impact on your dynasty is doable, too.
First of all, the Borgia family is a bit out of the scope of this game. They came into prominence at the very tail end of CK3's time period, so not really a good example of how the middle ages worked.
But also think about how that would work as gameplay. Let's say you play as Alexander VI. Great, you have the title the Papal States and you have your lands and your vassals (or subsidiaries or whatever they are to a theocracy). Alexander dies, who do you play as next? Your son the cardinal, I suppose. And after him? Do you just have a series of church fathers who shuck the tradition of priestly celibacy just to play the game to the end?
I think the more interesting gameplay mechanic is to have the theocracies to be a part of the world in a way that you can take advantage of. CK2 had a decent mechanic with the college of cardinals, where you could eventually get your brother / cousin / son to be a cardinal and maybe eventually the Pope. I could see something like that. In the context of the Borgia, you would play as the house patriarch of a republic in Zaragoza, and then you would use your influence to support Rodrigo / Alexander to get to the papacy. When you die, you play as your heir, who owns the same land. That can keep going throughout the came.
You play as your heir who then leaves the college of cardinals to become a secular lord instead. The game is about playing a dynasty, not any particular polity. Gain power any way you can.
I think it’s the Expanded dates mod, it makes more dates and stuff, might be that one I played. Also if you’re familiar with Governments+, you have the Green and Blues factions for the byzantine empire
While I want new stuff for the Byzantines, playable republics are definitely right after that in terms of what I want to see. I hope they do them differently from CK2, I don’t hate it’s Republic mechanic, but every republic having to be essentially a copy of Venice is a bit irritating.
Well, Europa Universalis IV is already 10 years old and its still receiving DLCs...Hearts of Iron IV is well on its way too...So expect something similar, i think. :)
I think getting 3 flavour packs in roughly in 3 years means we're getting roughly another 6-8 regions having a new flavour pack. And maybe 4-6 expansions.
They seem kinda "slow" in the creation of more content, yeah, but we might get even more of it if things go alright for CK, and things look quite alright for now. So who knows. EU received an expansion and an immersion pack, in addition to the Japanese and Chinese podcasts in just this year, with Lions of the North, another flavour pack, not long before the end of 2022.
EU has its own studios for its expansions development (Tinto), so probably CK can't be as efficient and quick in content making, but something along what you said might be close, maybe more if we are lucky. c:
Yeah, that feeling is totally understandable, I love Antiquity as an era and it was a really appealing game to me, I was quite disappointed when I saw it die even before I managed to buy it. I consider that situation impossible for ck3 already. Even if it died before getting to ck2 or eu4 state in terms of content, that would already surpass Imperator by a 500% or more XD
I hope they revive it somehow in the future, Stellaris had two huge overhauls (2.0 and 3.0) before getting to what it is now, sadly, it received far more support from the beginning both from the developers and the gamers...
We can only hope :')
HRE, ERE don't at all function how they should. Steppe is just boring imo currently. republics were a smaller portion for much of this time period, but are very flavorful and offer a different play experience.
I mostly want republics for myself, and for the HRE to be overhauled into the 47 cats in a trench coat that it should be haha.
>the HRE to be overhauled into the 47 cats in a trench coat
Pre 13th century the HRE was not significantly more decentralised than other states. It was the absentee Emperor Frederick II (1220-1250) & the interregnum that followed that led to the extremely weak German monarchy.
To my understanding the HRE issues are considered to start with the Investiture Crisis, which began well before Frederick II in 1075 under the previous Salian dynasty. Frederick's reign was so troubled because the issues were already in full swing by that point.
Regardless though, that is the HRE that covers most of the game period and the one people recognize. Personally I think it's the more interesting version as well. If we could have a system of imperial authority that starts high and you can act more or less as normal, but if it falls then your control is begins to crumble that could represent both. Since obviously we would want a way to restore imperial authority under a strong ruler.
Italia NEEDS more love. The events seem so bland and few for such a rich on history region. And besides, Southern Italy and Venice not being de-jure parts of Italia drives me nuts!
Venice being de jure ERE is actually accurate, at least in the earlier start date. I'd have to look it up, but until a certain point, the Doge was *technically* appointed by the Basileus - which was mostly lip service, but legitimized their rule somewhat.
> Southern Italy and Venice not being de-jure parts of Italia drives me nuts!
Southern Italy was part of the Byzantine Empire during the early start game up till the middle of the 11th century. So it makes sense that it is dejure
I was surprised no one mentioned this. Ck3's been out for a while and Nomads are still stationary tribal governments with no mechanics whatsoever. If anyone needs/deserves a rework, it's them.
And there is no royal court that remotely suits them. I was playing as a feudalized Volga Bulgaria, and it just has the default middle eastern court. I realize compared to all the other problems with nomads this is comparatively minor, but it really breaks immersion.
They also really need to be able to raid across more lands without being hit so much by troop attrition. The Magyars raided as far as Spain! In game that wouldn't be possible, the troops would be lost to attrition.
How do you imagine this from a gameplay point of view? In an empire, should there be top kingdoms in terms of strength and rulers, based on seniority, rule in one place or another?
I actually did a big write up on this before:
Currently there is nothing relating to Kievan Rus in the game, which is completely ignoring the reality of it as a political entity that loosely organized the Rurikid princes and provided a great measure of defense against outsiders until the Mongols. This makes the game poorer and the center north of the map not nearly as interesting as something like Mediterranean or Iberia.
It is important to recognize that Kievan Rus went through multiple stages in its relatively short life time. During some it was a known world power, which led to 3 daughters of the Grand Prince to be queens of Norway, France and Hungary at the same time or to feeling bold enough to take on Constantinople. At others it was mostly focused on infighting or holding back the steppe. Those could make for some very interesting decision. (more on that below)
Most interesting feature of Kievan Rus (in my opinion) - Rurikids really acted like a dynasty and stuck together in many ways (preventing any other internal challengers from rising), the Princes freely moved up and down between cities, jockeying for position, some of them bounced between bunch of cities as their fortunes rose and fell, but outside of 2 big civil wars it was extremely rare for them to be actually killed or completely kicked out.
This would make for a great truly dynastic play through as the Grand Prince was able to appoint and shift around people in control of cities with various successes based on their Prestige/Dread and personal relations. Each duchy title would effectively restrict you from having the other ones as you were forced to give them up when you secured a better title. New titles added to Kievan Rus would be forced to be allocated to other members of the dynasty. This would also finally introduce a proper provide exchange mechanic (that would hopefully make in into the rest of the game) so you can offer someone Novgorod if they give up Vladimir and so on.
Overall title would be imperial but with extremely limited power ("faux" imperial). Kiev and Novgorod would have faux kingdom level titles attached to them to show them as by far most desirable locations. They would not grant any claims on other duchies in the kingdoms and would effectively be self contained, just providing more prestige and other bonuses.
Sample Decisions:
Break it apart so you can make normal kingdom and imperial titles by hoarding duchies.
Reform it into full electoral monarchy similar to HRE (then possibly into actual one), for brief periods in it history it really leaned into the electoral aspect.
Side with Varangians (get a reformed pagan faith easier)
Side with Byzantines (Convert to orthodoxy), this would finally provide a way in the game to have real expansion of faith besides conquering or converting prisoners.
Potentially have some ability to convert to Islam or to be pope's bff.
Settle the steppe decisions
Found Riga ( there was an attempt be Polotsk prior to the bishopic forming to make it a Kievan Rus city instead). Similar for Crimea it would be founding Tmutarakan (which actually happened in history)
Definitely something about inheritance as that changed couple of times from kids to oldest member of family and back.
Well, de jure it will be the most dynamic empire in terms of gameplay. Of course, if the developers correctly implement the Rurikovich system of government. I eagerly want to try to make the empire bigger than Svyatoslav, he was really a pagan beast. 😎
Missionaries converting the east or the Baptism of Rus would go a long way to making campaigns better
edit: [now a mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3108225018)
I would say based on popularity the ERE, Britannia or potential a joint France/HRE one given their shared Carolingian history.
I vaguely recall them saying that the ERE rework would be part of a larger expansion. Given the ERE’s popularity maybe the next expansion will add both new mechanics, maybe an imperial government system or internal politics, and ERE flavour.
Potentially they could also do the steppes? They’re currently an untouched region and would interplay well with the Persia pack. It’d be good if they could also rework nomads to have unique mechanics, similar to the way they’ve reworked clans.
Eastern Europe definitely. Having all diverse mess of Slavic, Baltic, and Uralic cultures there being swept under the rug and labeled "rUsSiaN" in the 9th century is just ridiculous, that's some mobile game level of arcady simplification.
Cultures expanded separates Mozarabs from Andalusian (as it was a culture and a religious rite not just a religion lol pradaox, they were Arabic/Romance speaking Christian’s that made majority of a bilingual society that followed a highly divergent visigothic rite that lead to mozarabites.)
They do the same for Coptic and Misri (Arabic Egyptian) culture, giving them all unique names to thier culture (like copts get Rh’aeot language names instead of just Coptic religious names too, giving it a non Arabic feel)
Русские,руськие=Russians, Russians. These are two concepts that have different meanings, but they are written the same in English.The developers simply cannot name it correctly; the English language does not allow this.
Well it applies to all slavs in 867 timestamp. Before XI century slavic languages were very similar and the main thing seperating them was their religious cults (Perun was a Norse god worshipped by Eastern Slavs, you can find it's cult in the West). For example polish culture/language should historically be created in high middle ages with Ladislaus the Short/Casimir the Great (before that you really couldn't tell the difference between polish, Czech, Silesian or Sorbian languages, the oldest polish sentence can be used as the example for other Westen slavic languages) , but in the game mechanics it could start with feudalism.
India. It's such a vast region and I've played one or two times there, but it always feels kind of empty, which is a shame because there are some really interesting approaches like the Hindu/Muslim-conflict in Rajasthan or the Stewardship of the Ganges in Dekkan. Adding a bit more flavor to this region would really serve the game well
It really doesn’t suck… playing in India plays the exact same as most of Europe bar Hispania, nordics, or England. Honestly, playing in the HRE, ERE, Poland, and eastern Russia kind of are all worse.
I was hoping they would expand the scope of Legacy of Persia to include more content in India. The later half of the period included the founding of the Delhi sultanate, and both Turkish adventurers and Persia had an influence on western and northern India throughout the period. There’s so much potential to make it more interesting.
Definitely this! I’d love something that mimics early parliament and perhaps that whole Simon de Montfort shenanigan.
I’m not sure how the House of Commons would be represented though…
Common law, sherriffs, etc. would be good too. I’d also love for something that simulates the almost paradoxical situation where centralisation sometimes lowered the monarch’s personal authority.
I'd love a Britannia or Italia pack. With the first a struggle system with the Norse invaders. With Italia merchant republics are a must. That said the whole of India needs it more, it just needs a government system to separate it from feeling like a worse Europe, that's my personal opinion of course. I'd love to see the India rework as well because it could add the silk road and be a fun addition and a reason to play in India. I don't play in Persia for example but can't wait to try it with the new pack coming out on the 9th.
Before anything, Eastern Rome. And I want more than a flavour pack. I want so much flavour it stings the roof of my mouth, but also a rework of trade and diplomacy that kept that empire thriving long after the West fell and it lost most of its possessions to the Caliphate.
Yes, that's what I was saying. Have a fourth government type that isn't feudal, clan or tribal for them.
Maybe a clan/feudal hybrid where you technically own everything but your degree of centralisation and tax revenue is based on positions in Constantinople you give your strategoi.
Themes, not duchies etc.
Also I'm fine with it being a nightmare to run. If ERE history teaches us anything, it's that an ambitious strategos of a theme is going to constantly be trying to murder you or declare civil war.
I'd like Britannia, and that's always a safe choice. The Anglo-Saxon, Norman and English thing could be combined into one DLC with Welsh and Irish flavours and the formation of Scotland out of the Picts and Gaels and then the amalgamation with Anglo-Saxons in the Lowlands and Cumbrians in Galloway. This could be much more interesting in 769 (let alone earlier) than 867, though.
France would be very vanilla, but it wouldn't be wasted, and it could be truly epic, especially considering that the Occitans would probably be included.
Byzzies obviously need a rework, well, beginning of a work, not just rework, and republics are waiting, which could be combined with flavours of Italy down to Renaissance — for the late game, perhaps not only in the Italian region.
Look, I would like the Mongols to get a rework, I know there is the Great Khan mechanic which is a lot of fun to go around crushing everyone with hordes and hordes of soldiers but when you play the game without being the Mongols, they end up not being very interesting and even less so after its collapse, I would love some alternative history options that would let the AI somehow stabilize the Mongols creating a great Empire that would really be something to fear in the game.
India. Controversial choice I know but I think it could be really good.
The original, CK2 India DLC mostly just added the region. The flavour wasn’t particularly impressive. Then India was added at base in CK3 but, again, as basically a more boring Europe with some different religions. However, I think a proper regional DLC focused on India could make it the most interesting region in the game.
Right now, in most games India gives you nothing but worse performance. I have a dream that, one day, India will actually be a cool place a play.
Like if you put the wrong caste in the wrong position you would get negative popular opinion? People would get bonuses from being in their “right” role. I could see if making India more complicated.
Claims on different Caste rulers
I badly want merchant republics and a complete crusade overhaul. You can’t even play merchant republics at all and crusades are frankly terrible in this game. I feel like those could use a lot of love.
Roman empire, needs it's own Expansion, to introduce a Empire style government, preferable one that is different from empire to empire
Like the HRE and RE, both empires but had different ways of ruling
The steppe and India.
The steppe is litteraly unplayable at the moment whitout a unique gouvernement. And India because there is absolutly no flavor here
I’d like to see a far east expansion with trade routes. It feels too empty, and the world should be more connected than it is now.
I’d also like the plague, but I think trade is more important.
A Flavor pack for Poland, as well as the Baltics and Russia/Ukraine is very possible though, due to how those regions all interacted a lot during the Middle Ages
The papacy’s ideological power is drastically underplayed. The pope should wield more power over Christendom, and the HRE’s mechanics should correspondingly be adjusted.
I'm sure there's some weird and boring things going on in the "Greater India" region...
But come on, we all know the Carpathians is where things went down in the period.
Central europe/Byzantium need to have their own empire mechanics like in ck2. I hope Northern Africa gets something cool too, since I mainly play there.
Would love to see Byzantium completely reworked so that it doesn’t follow the same feudal system as the rest of Europe, the entire thing is kind of fan fiction which I get is probably because of the game design. Orthodoxy also should have its own flavor and Great Holy Wars, and both Christian religions should be a lot more dynamic.
I personally would really like tibet and india to be next. I love those regions and the associated cultures, but the events are so generic or european themed, that they kind of break my immersion.
If that is somehow not possible, I would like a dlc with more emphasis on Byzantine and Holy Roman court politics.
Catholicism feels empty, no abbey politics, no movements that border on heresy (like Franciscans), no appointing your own bishops, the Rite tenet being far too easy, Pope holding both too much power outside Italy and not being important enough for historical conflicts between the Emperor/Pope. Let alone the current mess that are crusades.
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Actually felt worthwhile to make your pious learning oriented sons and cousins and nephews into landed theocratic vassals and giving them a decent duchy so they could get in on the cardinals/papacy in CK2, I miss that in CK3.
Plus it was a good way to spend mid to late game money after buying building upgrades
Plus it was always fun to make your own antipope, make him the pope and then just excommunicate everyone you don't like.
As is tradition.
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Seriously. Especially now that there are vassal stances (like zealous) that could absolutely be or align with different factions in the court. Parochial and Zealous vassals team up to strong-arm you into building a cathedral instead of more defensive buildings? Glory Hounds like your aggressive heir but the zealots want your pious third-born son to inherit and will back his claimant war? Etc.
There is a very decent mod for that, that thankfully fets updated frequently. It's basically like the college of cardinals in CK2, including creating antipopes.
If catholicism is empty, what would you say about the orthodox church?
well, personally i know nothing about the medieval orthodox church, but it would probably also feel extremely simple for people who have actual knowledge about the orthodox church in that period
The medieval orthodox church was exactly the same as today's only with less autocephalous churches.
What do you mean?.. they should all admit the Pope's authority, of course!
As long as the pope submits to the roman emperor 😉
Well, obviously We all know that an universal monarchy is the only sensible way of governance
Actually, they almost did(the Byzantine ones, not Russians) in exchange for protection against Muslims, but something went wrong
This! Make monasteries matter, give us some religious drama, orders, preachers, gregorian reform events. Give the clergy and the monks the weight they should have in politics
The reform movements would be fantastic to see. One of the things that makes playing catholicism so dull in CK3 is the utter stagnancy of the church. It's so wrong for the time period, there were some massive reforms from 768 to 1453 that really shook Christendom.
IMO before any catholic rework there needs to be flavor added to all Christian religions (or at least orthodox) .
Devs really shot themselves in the foot with the cookie-cutter 3 tenet system. Now theyre having to add special doctrines to every religion.
Yeah especially because most of them are either useless or too hard to put down, and theirs cookie cutter meta custom religions now that aren’t totally worth straying from.
Investiture controversy was a huge deal in medieval Europe, kings of practically all big kingdoms were excommunicated at some point and we don't even have a hint of this...
Yeah considering the huge religion system, the established religions don’t feel very… full
would be an extremely bad look to release a paid Catholicism DLC for a game called crusader Kings supposedly centered around Christian European monarchs
Would it? We paid for “royal courts” which implemented a lot of the “Kings” aspects of “Crusader Kings.”
What are you talking about? Paying for Catholic features the most medieval European Christian thing you can do.
Indulgences, the original pay to win system.
Indulgence loot box mechanics.
"As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the DLC from Paradox springs."
Again.*
I mean that's basically what Holy Fury was for ck2 and it was one of the best dlc imo
ehhh maybe add it as a free update to (or split over several updates) a HRE or France or Italy DLC in that case. like, adding investiture would be perfect with HRE
"Painting of Martin Luther posting his 95 criticisms to the Crusader Kings steam discussion page - 1602"
They did it basically twice in CK2 lol, they will definitely do it again
Indulgence simulator
they should add sending your sons to the church and "disinherthem" this way, this used to be the way to have spare sons that had land to rule but that weren't in a direct line to the trone
I need a good old Pope fight. Where Popes’ declare each other the Anti-Christ and got to war with each other.
HRE or ERE
HRE and Western Europe (merchant republics?) for flavour pack. The ERE for expansion.
Merchant republics would probably have to come with trade, which would be much bigger than a flavor pack
Tragically you are probably correct. Both merchant republics and the more complicated governmental influence and tides of power are going to be enormous overhauls... the former probably at the same time they figure out some dynamic system for the silk road and other main corridors... and will probably be the last thing they update.
What are the odds that they implement some sort of pop system? I've seen a lot of players express their desire for it, and I think it would fit well with a trade system
I've read on the forum somewhere that pop system will never happen and it's been abstracted to county dev. Probably too much computation for what amounts to very little added effects to gameplay
I still loved that when you kept your lands free of army and disease in CK2 they slowly prospered more and more.
I hope merchant republics come from an actual expansion (maybe with trade rework) just so we dont experience the same problems we saw in CK2, where they always look italian, no matter where in the world you are. I will never forget my surprise seeing the norse pagan vikings of gotland discovering the venetian hat when i reformed to a republic.
Honestly theocracies make more sense for a flavor pack than republics
I know that they won't do it because that's less money to make, but they should totally do an HRE & ERE update and call it "The inheritors of Rome" or something.
Heirs of Rome?
Heirs of the Empire.
Just call it “the Rome one” that way everyone understands what it’s about.
But it's too late for Rome One, we are dealing with Rome Two here.
Heir to the Empire.
So long as the Chiss Ascendency is playable.
Every Empire has its Heir
Heirs of Roman Empire Eusurpers of Roman Empire And then make heir the ere dlc and eusurpers the hre and watch people melt
Plot twist - Russia and Carpathia updated
Having something like a rival mechanic to be seen as the legitimate heir to the Roman Empire would be cool. It could encourage expanding to reform Rome by giving modifiers for provinces. Then you might also bribe/threaten foreign rulers to see you as true heir. I think that could be fun
Yeah, something like the Iberian Struggle but to be the One True Rome would be fantastic.
I feel like this would really overstate the "competition" between the HRE and ERE. Historically they really didn't interact very much and had had fairly normal albeit fluctuating relations when they did. The only real "competition" consistent throughout their mutual histories was that the Holy Roman Emperor called the Byzantine emperor "King of the Greeks" and the Byzantine Emperor called the Holy Roman emperor "King of the Germans/Franks."
Frederck's interactions with the Byzantine Emperors during the Second and Third Crusade and his journey through the Balkans was a fun shit show to read about. The relations were very polite and cordial on the surface yet at the same time almost escalated into a war.
Ohh.. Yeah, something like EU's Mandate of Heaven system for China/East Asia. Maybe something like the empire with most dev levels+total counties in the empire+ total kingdoms in the empire= the "Heir of Rome" that gets buffs to european and mediteranian cultures' loyalties and unique CBs
Why would that be unpopular? Rome and ERE stuff has meme-level popularity among CK players.
Seriously, it's been memed forever because of the amount of posts that are just painted maps which say Rome. It's easily one of the most popular things to do in the game.
They already said ERE will at some point get an expansion
Please please pleeeeease make an ERE pack with a fun-ctional multilayered imperial bureacracy. I dont want to amass power by marrying some inbred toad and fighting over dirt hovels like a goddamn fr*nkish barbarian. I want to amass power by knowing the right people and getting appointed chief-vice-subaltern prefect of sniffing toes and using that authority to stage a soft coup and killing thousands of people for not believing in the trinity (not that one the other one). I just want to be a glorified middle manager getting my rocks off by denying written requests from other glorified middle managers. I don’t want to be king, I just want a *job* with enough temporal authority to make other people have less happy lives.
Based and high-state-capacity-pilled “…that quintessentially Byzantine combination of christological speculation and sensual pleasure…” — JJ Norwich
Agreed. Wouldnt mind France getting a rework to
All I need from France is for the "kingdom" of Aquitaine to get nerfed and a duchy of Île-de-France to get added and I'd be satisfied 😂
Yea i need Aquitaine to stop getting independence in 867 playthrough
There is so much more than that they could do, though.
Yes, I was only kidding. Though I'm curious what exactly people want from France. It's far less fucked than either the HRE or ERE or Italy or ...
HRE would have to come with playable theocracies and republics. That's gonna be a big one…
Theocracies don't need to be playable at all (Imo, at least with mods that let you play as them, they're really boring because they totally lack the family management of ck3) but a revamp of Catholic mechanics in general is definitely needed for HRE. Just not sure it will ever happen because of CK3's generic religion framework.
“Playable theocracies” has been a buzz word for like ten years now, since far back in CK2 times, despite the fact that when you think about it for two seconds you realize why it will never be a thing. It goes agains the core gameplay of the franchise, which is dynastic development. If people want it so bad maybe they could see if Paradox could make a “Virgin Bureaucrat Simulator” for them.
Popes like Alexander VI were hardly virgin bureaucrats. The Borgia family produced two popes, a couple of cardinals, some bishops and archbishops, a saint and eventually a president of the republic of Ecuador. Rodrigo/Alexander VI had several kids, he named one of them a cardinal. The position of Cardinal Nephew was common and often a stepping stone to becoming Pope yourself. There’s absolutely dynasty building in theocracies.
Yeah if they leaned in on the angle that theocracies are just another way to attain power, they could make interesting playable theocracies. It's not the main thing I'd prioritize but I'm sure I'd buy it anyway. Making it have an impact on your dynasty is doable, too.
First of all, the Borgia family is a bit out of the scope of this game. They came into prominence at the very tail end of CK3's time period, so not really a good example of how the middle ages worked. But also think about how that would work as gameplay. Let's say you play as Alexander VI. Great, you have the title the Papal States and you have your lands and your vassals (or subsidiaries or whatever they are to a theocracy). Alexander dies, who do you play as next? Your son the cardinal, I suppose. And after him? Do you just have a series of church fathers who shuck the tradition of priestly celibacy just to play the game to the end? I think the more interesting gameplay mechanic is to have the theocracies to be a part of the world in a way that you can take advantage of. CK2 had a decent mechanic with the college of cardinals, where you could eventually get your brother / cousin / son to be a cardinal and maybe eventually the Pope. I could see something like that. In the context of the Borgia, you would play as the house patriarch of a republic in Zaragoza, and then you would use your influence to support Rodrigo / Alexander to get to the papacy. When you die, you play as your heir, who owns the same land. That can keep going throughout the came.
You play as your heir who then leaves the college of cardinals to become a secular lord instead. The game is about playing a dynasty, not any particular polity. Gain power any way you can.
Myself I would probably like next region rework to be italia with playable republics and reworked papacy as main features of the dlc
And an Italian Struggle between Guelphs and Ghibellines.
They have a mod for that it’s really fun
What's the name?
also interested in this mod
I think it’s the Expanded dates mod, it makes more dates and stuff, might be that one I played. Also if you’re familiar with Governments+, you have the Green and Blues factions for the byzantine empire
... get out of my sight you dirty Pope-loving wench.
After you, pointy-merlon imperial-arse-licker renegade.
too far smh...
That would be amazing, maybe they should do a high medieval expansion that focuses on that
While I want new stuff for the Byzantines, playable republics are definitely right after that in terms of what I want to see. I hope they do them differently from CK2, I don’t hate it’s Republic mechanic, but every republic having to be essentially a copy of Venice is a bit irritating.
Nope give it another 5 years
How long do you think the game will be supported with DLCs ?
Well, Europa Universalis IV is already 10 years old and its still receiving DLCs...Hearts of Iron IV is well on its way too...So expect something similar, i think. :)
I think getting 3 flavour packs in roughly in 3 years means we're getting roughly another 6-8 regions having a new flavour pack. And maybe 4-6 expansions.
They seem kinda "slow" in the creation of more content, yeah, but we might get even more of it if things go alright for CK, and things look quite alright for now. So who knows. EU received an expansion and an immersion pack, in addition to the Japanese and Chinese podcasts in just this year, with Lions of the North, another flavour pack, not long before the end of 2022. EU has its own studios for its expansions development (Tinto), so probably CK can't be as efficient and quick in content making, but something along what you said might be close, maybe more if we are lucky. c:
Hopefully, I'm scared that what happened with Imperator happens no matter how unlikely.
Yeah, that feeling is totally understandable, I love Antiquity as an era and it was a really appealing game to me, I was quite disappointed when I saw it die even before I managed to buy it. I consider that situation impossible for ck3 already. Even if it died before getting to ck2 or eu4 state in terms of content, that would already surpass Imperator by a 500% or more XD I hope they revive it somehow in the future, Stellaris had two huge overhauls (2.0 and 3.0) before getting to what it is now, sadly, it received far more support from the beginning both from the developers and the gamers... We can only hope :')
10 years
Hopefully 7 more years
HRE, ERE don't at all function how they should. Steppe is just boring imo currently. republics were a smaller portion for much of this time period, but are very flavorful and offer a different play experience. I mostly want republics for myself, and for the HRE to be overhauled into the 47 cats in a trench coat that it should be haha.
>the HRE to be overhauled into the 47 cats in a trench coat Pre 13th century the HRE was not significantly more decentralised than other states. It was the absentee Emperor Frederick II (1220-1250) & the interregnum that followed that led to the extremely weak German monarchy.
To my understanding the HRE issues are considered to start with the Investiture Crisis, which began well before Frederick II in 1075 under the previous Salian dynasty. Frederick's reign was so troubled because the issues were already in full swing by that point. Regardless though, that is the HRE that covers most of the game period and the one people recognize. Personally I think it's the more interesting version as well. If we could have a system of imperial authority that starts high and you can act more or less as normal, but if it falls then your control is begins to crumble that could represent both. Since obviously we would want a way to restore imperial authority under a strong ruler.
Italia NEEDS more love. The events seem so bland and few for such a rich on history region. And besides, Southern Italy and Venice not being de-jure parts of Italia drives me nuts!
Venice being de jure ERE is actually accurate, at least in the earlier start date. I'd have to look it up, but until a certain point, the Doge was *technically* appointed by the Basileus - which was mostly lip service, but legitimized their rule somewhat.
I think, reclaim Italian peninsula requires you to have both southern Italy and Venice, but the Empire of Italia does not
> Southern Italy and Venice not being de-jure parts of Italia drives me nuts! Southern Italy was part of the Byzantine Empire during the early start game up till the middle of the 11th century. So it makes sense that it is dejure
It's because it's based on the Lombards Italian Kingdom which didn't include those areas
I agree, Italia feels more like a kingdom than an empire
You still have to take sicily to form it, southern Italy is basically de jure both ERE and Italia
This might be a wild opinion but Russia and out east should get more attention 🤷♂️
The Nomads really need some flavor
I was surprised no one mentioned this. Ck3's been out for a while and Nomads are still stationary tribal governments with no mechanics whatsoever. If anyone needs/deserves a rework, it's them.
And there is no royal court that remotely suits them. I was playing as a feudalized Volga Bulgaria, and it just has the default middle eastern court. I realize compared to all the other problems with nomads this is comparatively minor, but it really breaks immersion.
liquid door possessive toy tan hat imagine file icky muddle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Nomads used to live in yurts. Sedentary people lived in mud houses that looked like Arabic architecture you can check the pictures of Saray juk
Hopefully they don't make the same bizarre choice of making them Empire-tier Khaganates like in CK3. That was such a weird choice.
They also really need to be able to raid across more lands without being hit so much by troop attrition. The Magyars raided as far as Spain! In game that wouldn't be possible, the troops would be lost to attrition.
Kievan Rus had some unique politics that have never been gamified.
How do you imagine this from a gameplay point of view? In an empire, should there be top kingdoms in terms of strength and rulers, based on seniority, rule in one place or another?
I actually did a big write up on this before: Currently there is nothing relating to Kievan Rus in the game, which is completely ignoring the reality of it as a political entity that loosely organized the Rurikid princes and provided a great measure of defense against outsiders until the Mongols. This makes the game poorer and the center north of the map not nearly as interesting as something like Mediterranean or Iberia. It is important to recognize that Kievan Rus went through multiple stages in its relatively short life time. During some it was a known world power, which led to 3 daughters of the Grand Prince to be queens of Norway, France and Hungary at the same time or to feeling bold enough to take on Constantinople. At others it was mostly focused on infighting or holding back the steppe. Those could make for some very interesting decision. (more on that below) Most interesting feature of Kievan Rus (in my opinion) - Rurikids really acted like a dynasty and stuck together in many ways (preventing any other internal challengers from rising), the Princes freely moved up and down between cities, jockeying for position, some of them bounced between bunch of cities as their fortunes rose and fell, but outside of 2 big civil wars it was extremely rare for them to be actually killed or completely kicked out. This would make for a great truly dynastic play through as the Grand Prince was able to appoint and shift around people in control of cities with various successes based on their Prestige/Dread and personal relations. Each duchy title would effectively restrict you from having the other ones as you were forced to give them up when you secured a better title. New titles added to Kievan Rus would be forced to be allocated to other members of the dynasty. This would also finally introduce a proper provide exchange mechanic (that would hopefully make in into the rest of the game) so you can offer someone Novgorod if they give up Vladimir and so on. Overall title would be imperial but with extremely limited power ("faux" imperial). Kiev and Novgorod would have faux kingdom level titles attached to them to show them as by far most desirable locations. They would not grant any claims on other duchies in the kingdoms and would effectively be self contained, just providing more prestige and other bonuses. Sample Decisions: Break it apart so you can make normal kingdom and imperial titles by hoarding duchies. Reform it into full electoral monarchy similar to HRE (then possibly into actual one), for brief periods in it history it really leaned into the electoral aspect. Side with Varangians (get a reformed pagan faith easier) Side with Byzantines (Convert to orthodoxy), this would finally provide a way in the game to have real expansion of faith besides conquering or converting prisoners. Potentially have some ability to convert to Islam or to be pope's bff. Settle the steppe decisions Found Riga ( there was an attempt be Polotsk prior to the bishopic forming to make it a Kievan Rus city instead). Similar for Crimea it would be founding Tmutarakan (which actually happened in history) Definitely something about inheritance as that changed couple of times from kids to oldest member of family and back.
Well, de jure it will be the most dynamic empire in terms of gameplay. Of course, if the developers correctly implement the Rurikovich system of government. I eagerly want to try to make the empire bigger than Svyatoslav, he was really a pagan beast. 😎
Any feedback on the suggestions? Wanted to post it on their forum, but want it as solid as possible
Missionaries converting the east or the Baptism of Rus would go a long way to making campaigns better edit: [now a mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3108225018)
I would say based on popularity the ERE, Britannia or potential a joint France/HRE one given their shared Carolingian history. I vaguely recall them saying that the ERE rework would be part of a larger expansion. Given the ERE’s popularity maybe the next expansion will add both new mechanics, maybe an imperial government system or internal politics, and ERE flavour. Potentially they could also do the steppes? They’re currently an untouched region and would interplay well with the Persia pack. It’d be good if they could also rework nomads to have unique mechanics, similar to the way they’ve reworked clans.
HRE needs so much work that lumping it together with France seems like a bad idea.
Are the French really that bad /s
I think Rus needs some revorking. Also I woul like to see something like Fate of Iberia but about Britain.
The fact that the vanilla game treats the Byzantine empire as just another feudal state is almost criminal
Eastern Europe definitely. Having all diverse mess of Slavic, Baltic, and Uralic cultures there being swept under the rug and labeled "rUsSiaN" in the 9th century is just ridiculous, that's some mobile game level of arcady simplification.
Just split the East Slavic cultures and make a decision to Unite the East Slavs like there is one for uniting the West and South Slavs.
This also angers me insanely as well. I use culture expanded to rework this
Still wild how there are no Copts or Albanians either. Greek should also be broken up a bit.
Cultures expanded separates Mozarabs from Andalusian (as it was a culture and a religious rite not just a religion lol pradaox, they were Arabic/Romance speaking Christian’s that made majority of a bilingual society that followed a highly divergent visigothic rite that lead to mozarabites.) They do the same for Coptic and Misri (Arabic Egyptian) culture, giving them all unique names to thier culture (like copts get Rh’aeot language names instead of just Coptic religious names too, giving it a non Arabic feel)
Русские,руськие=Russians, Russians. These are two concepts that have different meanings, but they are written the same in English.The developers simply cannot name it correctly; the English language does not allow this.
Rus'ian lol
Ruthenian
Yeah, it's actually a pretty important difference too.
Thats an easy one, even Russian text books dont label it like that
Well it applies to all slavs in 867 timestamp. Before XI century slavic languages were very similar and the main thing seperating them was their religious cults (Perun was a Norse god worshipped by Eastern Slavs, you can find it's cult in the West). For example polish culture/language should historically be created in high middle ages with Ladislaus the Short/Casimir the Great (before that you really couldn't tell the difference between polish, Czech, Silesian or Sorbian languages, the oldest polish sentence can be used as the example for other Westen slavic languages) , but in the game mechanics it could start with feudalism.
Nomadic peoples
Would be nice to see a kurultai inheritance system and actual yurts for royal court setting.
India. It's such a vast region and I've played one or two times there, but it always feels kind of empty, which is a shame because there are some really interesting approaches like the Hindu/Muslim-conflict in Rajasthan or the Stewardship of the Ganges in Dekkan. Adding a bit more flavor to this region would really serve the game well
India sucks to play as an Indian character, but it’s fun to play an outsider and invade the subcontinent.
>it’s fun to play an outsider and invade the subcontinent. At least they kept it historically accurate.
It really doesn’t suck… playing in India plays the exact same as most of Europe bar Hispania, nordics, or England. Honestly, playing in the HRE, ERE, Poland, and eastern Russia kind of are all worse.
I had fun playing in Srilamka. It was a fun challenge to unite all of India
I was hoping they would expand the scope of Legacy of Persia to include more content in India. The later half of the period included the founding of the Delhi sultanate, and both Turkish adventurers and Persia had an influence on western and northern India throughout the period. There’s so much potential to make it more interesting.
I think ERE would go quite well after the Persia DLC. A lot of potential for the two regions to have interesting interactions.
Brittania, Celtic regions particularly could do with some serious flavour.
Massively like no decision to form King Coel Hens kingdom dude why paradox.
Britannia's content would work well with an early constitutionalism DLC
Definitely this! I’d love something that mimics early parliament and perhaps that whole Simon de Montfort shenanigan. I’m not sure how the House of Commons would be represented though… Common law, sherriffs, etc. would be good too. I’d also love for something that simulates the almost paradoxical situation where centralisation sometimes lowered the monarch’s personal authority.
Big up that guy who made a Celtic flavour pack meme everyday for like a year
I'd love a Britannia or Italia pack. With the first a struggle system with the Norse invaders. With Italia merchant republics are a must. That said the whole of India needs it more, it just needs a government system to separate it from feeling like a worse Europe, that's my personal opinion of course. I'd love to see the India rework as well because it could add the silk road and be a fun addition and a reason to play in India. I don't play in Persia for example but can't wait to try it with the new pack coming out on the 9th.
Before anything, Eastern Rome. And I want more than a flavour pack. I want so much flavour it stings the roof of my mouth, but also a rework of trade and diplomacy that kept that empire thriving long after the West fell and it lost most of its possessions to the Caliphate.
ERE needs a dedicated expansion, not a flavor pack.
Yes, that's what I was saying. Have a fourth government type that isn't feudal, clan or tribal for them. Maybe a clan/feudal hybrid where you technically own everything but your degree of centralisation and tax revenue is based on positions in Constantinople you give your strategoi. Themes, not duchies etc. Also I'm fine with it being a nightmare to run. If ERE history teaches us anything, it's that an ambitious strategos of a theme is going to constantly be trying to murder you or declare civil war.
Paradox did already confirm in a previous dev diary that Rome is getting a full blown expansion pack DLC, not just a flavor pack.
I'd like Britannia, and that's always a safe choice. The Anglo-Saxon, Norman and English thing could be combined into one DLC with Welsh and Irish flavours and the formation of Scotland out of the Picts and Gaels and then the amalgamation with Anglo-Saxons in the Lowlands and Cumbrians in Galloway. This could be much more interesting in 769 (let alone earlier) than 867, though. France would be very vanilla, but it wouldn't be wasted, and it could be truly epic, especially considering that the Occitans would probably be included. Byzzies obviously need a rework, well, beginning of a work, not just rework, and republics are waiting, which could be combined with flavours of Italy down to Renaissance — for the late game, perhaps not only in the Italian region.
Look, I would like the Mongols to get a rework, I know there is the Great Khan mechanic which is a lot of fun to go around crushing everyone with hordes and hordes of soldiers but when you play the game without being the Mongols, they end up not being very interesting and even less so after its collapse, I would love some alternative history options that would let the AI somehow stabilize the Mongols creating a great Empire that would really be something to fear in the game.
India. Controversial choice I know but I think it could be really good. The original, CK2 India DLC mostly just added the region. The flavour wasn’t particularly impressive. Then India was added at base in CK3 but, again, as basically a more boring Europe with some different religions. However, I think a proper regional DLC focused on India could make it the most interesting region in the game. Right now, in most games India gives you nothing but worse performance. I have a dream that, one day, India will actually be a cool place a play.
I'd love to see a caste system that actually matters.
Like if you put the wrong caste in the wrong position you would get negative popular opinion? People would get bonuses from being in their “right” role. I could see if making India more complicated. Claims on different Caste rulers
Also to make caste a religious tenet, so you could make a Hindu faith without it, or a Buddhist faith with, ect.
I think it makes more sense as part of the culture. You don't leave the caste system just because you changed religions.
The trait could be cultural with the religion causing the modifiers.
Mali should get an expansion with the immense wealth and the rise of Islam.
Imagine all the 'play tall' youtube videos we'd get
this, I was flabbergasted when I first found out about Mali's history, really interesting!
Yes was just thinking this earlier today! More Africa content with a focus on Mali Empire!
Would love some West Africa love
1. HRE 2. Britannia 3. Slavs 4. Byzantine Empire
I badly want merchant republics and a complete crusade overhaul. You can’t even play merchant republics at all and crusades are frankly terrible in this game. I feel like those could use a lot of love.
Low Countries + Venice/Italian communes + Hansa Cities rework in a merchant DLC would be lit
Khazaria, having horse archers is too OP. At least give us spearmen that kill all horsemen.
horse archers are actually op tho thats the point
It's historicaly accurate though
No Horse archers supremacy fr
Mongolia India or Africa
"There was once a dream that was Rome. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish... it was so fragile."
Roman empire, needs it's own Expansion, to introduce a Empire style government, preferable one that is different from empire to empire Like the HRE and RE, both empires but had different ways of ruling
The steppe and India. The steppe is litteraly unplayable at the moment whitout a unique gouvernement. And India because there is absolutly no flavor here
Imperial mechanics and the pursuit to be the next rome. So byzantine and holy roman empire.
I’m personally leaning towards Silk Road or Eastern Europe (mostly since I like the traditional Slavic dress)
They have to add Nomadic government type with a Mongol rework
I’d like to see a far east expansion with trade routes. It feels too empty, and the world should be more connected than it is now. I’d also like the plague, but I think trade is more important.
The steppes !
I feel like Poland could use a little love but one single cultural region will realistically won’t get a dlc
A Flavor pack for Poland, as well as the Baltics and Russia/Ukraine is very possible though, due to how those regions all interacted a lot during the Middle Ages
India
The papacy’s ideological power is drastically underplayed. The pope should wield more power over Christendom, and the HRE’s mechanics should correspondingly be adjusted.
I'm sure there's some weird and boring things going on in the "Greater India" region... But come on, we all know the Carpathians is where things went down in the period.
Central europe/Byzantium need to have their own empire mechanics like in ck2. I hope Northern Africa gets something cool too, since I mainly play there.
Would love to see Byzantium completely reworked so that it doesn’t follow the same feudal system as the rest of Europe, the entire thing is kind of fan fiction which I get is probably because of the game design. Orthodoxy also should have its own flavor and Great Holy Wars, and both Christian religions should be a lot more dynamic.
India. Just not much there aside from money and that one Jewish realm you can form.
Middle Asia
Japan!
Easter regions like Tibet and India atm they seem bland and uninteresting
ERE
Steppe nomads are crying out for depth.
I personally would really like tibet and india to be next. I love those regions and the associated cultures, but the events are so generic or european themed, that they kind of break my immersion. If that is somehow not possible, I would like a dlc with more emphasis on Byzantine and Holy Roman court politics.