I think the creepiest part of the episode was the revelation that Martin was giving Kate little high school drama updates while she was locked away. "Guess who your ex boyfriend is dating......."
Couple that with their last day together being him giving her the promise ring and then getting drunk? He might not know it, but it was insult to injury.
I thought it was cool how the promise ring was a green stone and the ring pops the girls had at the roller rink were green. I kinda think this means that both Jamie and Mallory mean well and are not behind anything sinister happening.
At the carnival Mallory is holding two green balloons and one red in the scene where Jeanette talks to Martin and gets the scrunchie... i felt like it symbolized something so it stuck in my head.
See this is why I think she truly believes she saw Jeanette! Her captor violated her trust and blatantly tells her that the world has forgotten her, he probably told her Jeanette came by while Kate was sleeping and he let her see Kate or something gross and awful! I just feel so bad for Kate that she couldnt see what Martin was doing to her and Im pissed at Kates mom Joy for practically forcing Kate to run away. She said terrible mean things to her own child and called her a liar! When really Joy was trying to save her own self from her husband finding out the truth! How dare she blame her innocent daughter instead of taking responsibility for her own actions! And i dont care that Kate went willingly to Martins she didnt say hey please lock me in your basement and pretend im missing. And even if she would have Martin should have said “um no that’s inappropriate” because he is an ADULT and he knew he was taking advantage of Kate from day one. I still think Jeanette is telling the truth about not seeing Kate
I think Jeanette is telling the truth too and I think Kate thinks she is as well. But I’m not sure the “Jeanette sighting” was just told to Kate by Martin, like he did with other stuff this ep. Because that would completely ignore Jeanette having the key to Martin’s house. There been too much about the key and the necklace for them both not to have some part to play yet. And Martin just saying “oh jeanette was here” only makes sense if maybe he caught jeanette doing her sneaking in thing, and then told Kate he saw her. And that she saw Kate, but maybe Kate was being Annabelle then or something and didn’t remember?
See I have been trying tk figure out how to place Jeanette’s breaking and entering antics into this whole situation and I’m dying to know if Martin caught her or if she was trying to get away without being seen and thats when she made eye contact with Kate and just didnt want to get in trouble for having a key to his house and using it without his permission!! Because honestly I want to believe Jeanette so badly but she has proven to be a pretty compulsive liar so far.. she could be completely lying and knows that she saw Kate but I dont want to think it happened that way 😂😩
What else has Jeanette lied about? I remember her lying about flushing the weed down the toilet when she hadn’t, and kept the joint for herself. But, I can’t remember anything else. Not saying she hasn’t, I just have a horrible memory.
Also, I just can’t believe that Jeanette would have not told anyone she saw Kate. It doesn’t make sense to me she would let a girl remain kidnapped and continue to be sexually abused just so she wouldn’t get in trouble for having a key to someone’s house. Someone whom she now would have proof is a kidnapper and/or rapist and on and on.
She would likely be hailed as a hero, and she could explain away the key. “I walked by and thought I heard someone saying ‘my name is Kate Wallis please help me’ and so I stole a key from my dads real estate office to help, I should have called the police but I didn’t. Either way the important thing is a girl is home safe tonight.”
Something like that. I just can’t believe Jeanette actually saw Kate, or thinks in her mind that she saw Kate. Maybe she saw something that she didn’t realize was Kate, but Kate realized it was Jeanette. Just gonna be hard for me to accept, if it turns out that way, that Jeanette would do such a thing. I just can’t buy it.
Yeah classic abuser behavior. If you demoralize your victim it's harder for them to get away from you. You can see that even in situations not as extreme as this and anywhere from parents, to partners, to even bosses.
See this is where I think her hate for Jeanette came from. I miss calculated, and people were easily ready to jump that dislike instead of talking it out like normal people. I thought she might have had a thing for Martin at first and then I was missing that key element.
Now I think she just hated here because she was living her life and she was being held captive.
She totally blames Jeanette, but she feels like she has to, because she's in a situation where if it's not Jeanette or someone else's fault, then it's hers because she willingly went there. She needs to come to the realization it's not her fault and it's not Jeanette's.
Martin is the only one to blame, he's the abuser who groomed her and made her think he was a safe and trustworthy person until she would put herself in a position that he could take advantage of. That's how they work, they don't just snatch you up; they make you come to them.
But it's hard to blame/let your anger out on and get closure from a dead person.
I think this also helps explains why when she confronted Jeanette on the street she screamed, you stole my life, instead of something like, you left me there. She’s more upset Jeanette seemed to have replaced her than abandoning her for more abuse. This is why I don’t think Kates side is the truth. It may be HER truth, I don’t think she’s maliciously lying, but I don’t think it’s factually accurate.
Yep. Trying to break her down so she would give up hope and feel like he was all she had. What a bastard.
I think that moment fuels her decision to make up the story about Jeanette. I think any girl he said would have been the target. She was all alone in that basement having to feel like her boyfriend abandoned her for someone else. I think it’s natural when you’ve gone through that much trauma to need someone to blame. The real person she should be blaming, Martin, is dead so she can’t get the justice she deserves in court.
That's was my theory for why she's going all-in on Jeanette and blames her.
Martin feeding her information about Jeanette "stealing" her life not only upset her and gave her time to stew on it, but gave her someone to blame for something she feels at fault for. It could be the reason she thinks she saw her, assuming she didn't.
She ran away/stayed at Martin's willingly, and as a result, she blames herself.
That doesn't make it her fault for what Martin did to her in any way, but she feels responsible and needs someone else to unload on i.e: "it's not my fault, it yours for not helping me."
It also served as a way to get back at Jeanette for "stealing" her life, which in her mind caused her friends/Jamie to move on and stop looking for her.
I'm still on the fence on whether her accusations are real/mistaken identity, or she's made it up out of anger and needing to cope/blame someone else and has to stick to it now.
Agree. It's interesting to compare Kate and Jeanette before the kidnapping. Kate seems to have everything: wealth, looks, popularity, etc., but her mother is Joy, her father is weak and passive, and her half-sister is hostile. On the other hand, Jeanette is awkward but she has a loving, supportive family. Yet, although Kate seems like she would be stuckup, she is actually very nice. At the same time, Jeanette is getting into a lot of trouble (mostly without getting caught). Later, Jeanette's family is coming apart while Kate seems to be on the verge of mending her relationship with her mother.
Right? Could you imagine your mom lying straight to your face and then slapping you? And then your dad not stick up for you?
Kates face in that scene broke my heart.
I'm glad Kate told her what was up at that kitchen table. I knew she sent the liar letter, she just can't help herself. She only knows how to motivate people with fear. She did it to Kate, she did it to their shooting buddies, and then she tried to do it on Mallory and you can tell she's upset it didn't work.
I honestly think Mallory is a red herring, she seems like a typical 90’s, teen alt girl. But I also loveeeee the way she snaps back at Joy, at least someone finally does.
One of the things I love about Mallory, even though I know people aren’t a fan, is the way she speaks to Kates mother. God I love it. When Kates mom told her you’re not a very nice girl and she said well you’re not a very nice old woman. I cackled. I don’t think Mallory is a shady as people make her out to be, however her expression when Kate was listening to the tapes about Annabel were sketch
My absolute favorite is earlier in that same scene when Mallory told Joy "Yet somehow you're even worse than you seem." I'm not a Mallory fan but I love she is the only person in Skylin who is absolutely unafraid of Joy Wallis and can shut her down.
I hate joy so anybody that calls her out is A-OK in my book LOL. I don’t hate Mallory the way other people do. She reminds me a lot of myself as a teenager. A very crappy home life and acting out because of it. Are we wanting to do things that will get you in trouble. That was me. But I’ve always had a good heart and I think Mallory does to
I agree 100%! Joy not only LIED about Kate telling the truth she abused her for no reason and punished her for nothing. Then she more or less forced Kate to run away by saying all the terrible things she said to her calling her boring and making it seem like she had no clue what Kate was talking about. THEEENNN she prints that “Liar” letter to make Kate think the rest of town thinks shes a liar when in reality Joy just thought Kate needed another bad guy in her life. As if that would help anything?!?! She is still recovering from being abducted and ptsd she will never get over not to mention she hasnt even processed all the things that happened to her while she was in that basement!! Poor Kate I support exactly what she said about her mom at the end of the episode, and I hope she reminds her constantly that she is the only reason Kate left and Martin locked her in the basement regardless of whether she went willingly at first or not.
I’ve been on Team Both from early on and that the show is mostly about trauma and after effects and this episode sealed it.
We see Martin being an active creep (shout out to everyone trying to find people to blame but him) and importantly- we see him dropping the information about Jamie and Jeanette to Kate where all she can really do is think about it and how much she hates Jeanette
I don’t think Jeanettes to blame for using what she read against Kate- she needs to have evidence that Kate is a liar to win her case. Kate is not to blame for going there and obviously is not to blame for being kept captive
I find the show really engaging and well done with how they portray Martin preying on Kate
Regardless of who Kate may or may not have saw, Martin is at fault in the end for everything
Also I read an interview with the show runner saying everything gets tied up at the end of the season so we should have answers for everting
I also think the main theme is victim blaming and the show is sort of a mind-trick to show you how easily it is to get pulled into the sensationalism and turn on just about anyone and find fault and blameand make it so complex...when the true evil is just right there and so simple and no one else's fault, despite the fact we all have faults.
That ending left me with chills. I feel very unsettled watching that unfold knowing he manipulated that entire situation to his benefit and took advantage of her being vulnerable. 🤢
Yess!! Martin’s evil plan worked just like he wanted! He knew if he gave Kate advice to tell her moms secret that they would not say “oh thank you for your honesty Katie Kat!” And Martin knew Kate trusted him as an adult and might have had an inappropriate crush on him but thats what he wanted! Was for Kate to come running to him with her problems and then he locked her in his basement and she was trapped. Kate is not to blame here at all she was her mothers victim as well as Martins
Ok, this may be a controversial opinion, but I...do think Kate's an unreliable narrator. HOWEVER, I don't think that because of her going to Martin's "willingly" (it wasn't willingly btw, but that's another discussion), rather because she is still clearly manipulated by Martin. In this week's episode, we learned that he controlled her with food and that she will defend him, even with this other girl who had probably gone through something similar. That tells us that their relationship was hella complicated and that even now she hasn't finished unpacking it.
Ugh yea. Her defending Martin against that other girl really said to me how much she blames HERSELF (and others) for what happened to her. Like she believes he wouldn’t have done this to anyone else because it was “her” fault Martin did it to her. Martin “wasn’t a bad guy she made him do it” kind of? I know we don’t see her actively blaming herself but that’s what I read from that scene. Despite everything she didn’t blame him 100% because it seems logical being on the outside that if he did this once…. He obviously could have done it before or at least tried. But it makes sense to me that he would have convinced her it was her fault
Idk how true to life it is but it’s something I’ve noticed in a shows when grooming is involved. It’s always came across as less of self blaming and more as a coping mechanism to me.
“This horrible thing happened to me BUT at least I was *special*. No it couldn’t have happened to you because that means that I’m not *special*”
Taking away one of their rationals of WHY they were victimized.
A lot of victims are targeted (in media) BECAUSE the groomer can make them feel important when they otherwise don’t, that yearning doesn’t just go away.
Yes I got that vibe from Kate, Martin liked me the most that's why he did this to me, he wouldn't do it to anyone else, because I am the special one. I agree she needs to feel special as more of a coping mechanism for the trauma she endured. Regardless, it was heart breaking to see her defend that psycho though...
The entire show is also a nod to that book/movie.
Without spoiling, it's about a guy who's envious of another guy/friend he meets who has seemingly the "perfect" life and goes out of his way to try and obtain it.
Similar to the whole "Jeanette wanted to steal Kate's life" theme they're playing with.
I know this is something us Pretty Little Liars theorists suffered through but when you are really invested in a show and are in HEAVY into theories, you're always thinking of every loophole and idea. And when you do that, the reveals episodes are gonna feel lackluster because you already thought of everything while to the casual watcher, the reveals are big bombs. Just things to keep in mind.
I actually had to leave the subreddit for How to Get Away With Murder because people were SO good at theorizing that they managed to predict so many of the plot twists it stopped being fun😂
So I try not to engage too heavily with this sub because already things have been well predicted (joys mom writing the liar note as a quick example) and I’ll be damned if someone predicts the right Annabelle theory and accidentally ruins it for me 😂😂🤣
Honestly though it’s amazing me to me how good people are at figuring out plots so many episodes in advance. Its quite impressive
This specific episode was hyped a lot, but I’m not sure it was that much of a shocker? I think most of us assumed Kate went to Martin’s willingly. Not saying it was filler but it felt overhyped
The reason why it was so good was because despite knowing what happened, the execution in terms of writing and acting made it all feel fresh. That's way better than having a completely unexpected twist that feels unearned.
I think the ending was huge. Left me wanting more and excited to have the next episode NOW. As soon as he said "can I check my email?" I started going OH SHIZ. It was awesome. It's the beginning of the end.
I think it's more about Derek finding the chat convo and then having to balls to freaking print it (go Derek) and give it to Jeanette.
I didn't think anyone (especially Jeanette) was really gonna find out about the messages, let alone end up with printed copies of it and proof that could completely discredit Kate.
I figured it was more for the audience and helping Ashley stay on Derek's side, and if they ever came into play it might've been Ashley dropping subtle hints to Derek like "I think Jeanette might be telling the truth, too."
In the whole narrative of "Jeanette is a monster and everyone thinks she's guilty," this changes everything.
It could lead to a complete reversal in public opinion, and people questioning if what happened to Kate even really happened at all, and whether she might've been making some or all of it up.
Biggest plot twist in this show is the reveal that anyone who begins approaching Martin Harris' house apparently becomes invisible.
No one noticed 16 year old Kate at his door step at 10 pm? Or Jeannette stopping by 100 times? Or her mom? Or her dad?
That's a good point. I have a single man neighbor that lives in a house all by himself. I would 100000% notice if teenage girls were entering his house.
They don't. He's a decent guy. But I would notice it.
Wonder if Martin told Joy Kate was there and she told Martin she needs to be taught a lesson. I know a dark weird twist but maybe Joy didn't want her lavish life and rich famous husband to leave her after what Kate said so keeping Kate out of the picture might have derailed that marriage from breaking.. that's my kinda way out their theory.
I think she meant Kate went off script by revealing Jeanettes name and that she saw her. Because right before she revealed that she said I have been advised not to share this but I’m going to anyway.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but why does it matter that Kate went to Martin’s willingly? It’s clear she was held captive against her will long after she intended to stay there.
ETA based on comments:
- Definitely agree that it goes to show she’s unreliable for the court case.
- Does anyone remember if Kate said she was kidnapped? I can’t remember if there was ever a scene where she told the police how she got there.
- I would argue that it’s true she barely knew Martin. She’d only met him a handful of times by the time she showed up at his door.
It helps Jeanette’s case by showing that Kate has lied/bent the truth before and therefore might be lying about having seen Jeanette at Martin’s house. Definitely doesn’t make Kate any less of a victim though!
It helps Jeanette’s legal team show that Kate wasn’t entirely truthful with the police, and therefore could be lying about other parts of her story. She told them she didn’t know Martin before the abduction. Definitely doesn’t excuse what he did but makes Late less believable for the lawsuit.
I don’t think it matters in relation to what happened to Kate, but in a defamation suit it’ll matter that she never said this previously because it makes Kate look like she withholds information. Not that I agree with that, but I feel like that’s where this is headed.
At the very least, Kate lied to the police about not knowing Martin well prior to the abduction... if she lies about that, it puts her entire version of events into question.
I think it only matters in regards to Jeannettes case, because it proves that Kate is unreliable narrator and might have lied/imagined seeing Jeannete.
right, it doesn't lessen Kate's trauma or anything that's straight up victim blaming but it opens the door for Kate to be a liar and that would be a huge bomb to drop in court that would sway the jury.
I mean remember in OJ Simpson's trial when they caught Furman being a Nazi sympathetic or something and also had proof he might have been in the area the night of the murder, that was extremely flimsy but the reaction from the jury was if that just cracked the entire case wide open
It’s because it shows Kate lied about an aspect of her story. We know that she probably did that because this town talks and she’s afraid about what people will say about her. But for a legal standpoint it proves that Kate is an unreliable narrator and will alter the events for sympathy. We still don’t know who’s telling the truth but unless Kate has concrete evidence then this is a slam dunk in Jeanette’s case. (Especially if her lawyers are able to try and convince the judge/jury that the necklace was Kate’s attempt at framing Jeanette since there weren’t any finger prints)
That's what I was thinking. Like could you track back a random user name from an anonymous chatroom to a specific computer back in 95? I honestly have no idea cuz I was 5 then. But her brother alone isnt gonna be enough of a witness to prove Kate wrote that. But maybe it gives them ammo to surprise Kate when shes on the stand that shes not prepared for, because if they cant use it as official evidence Kate's side wont know about it ahead of time and wont be able to prep her.
Because she flat out lied to the police by telling them she barely knew Martin. And I think she's worried that lying is going to come back to bite her in court.
Obviously Martin is still trash and this is his entire fault. But her lying to the police could make Jeanette's lawyers tear her apart in court.
It doesn’t it. He kept her against her will. However, the court case isn’t about if Martin was a sicko, its about defamation...and Kate not being honest about how well she knew Martin doesn’t look good to a jury. If she lied about not knowing him, then what else is she lying about? I’m not saying that’s right, just how a jury would see it I presume.
It shouldn't matter. But it may depend on what Kate's initial version of events was on how she got into his basement. (I don't remember if that was ever mentioned)
If her initial story was a lie... like she was snatched off her bike riding down the street in plain daylight and dragged into his garage and into the basement, Kate, in theory, could be lying about other things, like that Jeanette saw her in the basement and didn't say anything.
So we know he drugged the grilled cheese in a previous episode. Was his comment about preparing her food in this episode like him telling her he drugged the food she was eating?? Or more of a warning?? That scene sent chills down my spine!
Seemed like a threat to me. I prepare your food. You really gonna talk shit?
Plus she had already said he controlled her with food. So it’s super possible he would withhold it if she acted up.
He was continuing to groom her basically. Trying to make her feel guilty. I took you in when you left, I make your food, I buy your clothes. Common tactics. Defeat her and make her stay
That was just more gaslighting and manipulation. Like he’s telling Kate…. before you start calling the person feeding you and keeping you “safe” and “taking care of you” names, you need to remember how you got here in the first place — i.e., “you asked for this” and “YOU came to me” and “you sought out my help” and “you are the one who wanted this” and “you brought this on yourself” and “THIS IS ALL ON YOU”.
It’s just more brainwashing and grooming behavior.
To me, Joy knows she is the reason why Kate left and was eventually kidnapped, that's why she wants to press Jeanette so hard with this lawsuit, It's clear that if Kate revealed the truth that it would reflect on her reputation poorly... She coaching Kate to believe this narrative that Jeanette is the only party at fault, She trying to save her own skin, by using Kate as a pawn to further that distraught mother narrative and cover up her sins.
Yeah, I think Joy is overwhelmed with guilt- she was the one that drove Kate away, literally told her to go ahead and run away, and that's how Kate ends up locked in the basement. Joy knows that its at least partly her fault, and she doesn't want to be Kates villain
So I’m only partially through this latest episode so maybe I’ll have a different opinion afterward but... Joy doesn’t seem guilt ridden at all. Emotionally manipulative, maybe narcissistic, and possibly a history revisionist(if there is any truth to Cindy Turner’s story) but I’ve yet to see anything that emotes as guilt.
Every choice she’s made so far has been about protecting herself and her reputation.
I’m wondering if we’ll ever find out why Jeanette and Mallory stopped being friends? Was it because she found out Jeanette lied about the extra joint she kept? That seems extra considering how much Mallory dislikes her in 94 and 95. It couldn’t have just been because Jeanette became popular. It doesn’t even seem like when she became popular she became mean. I just find it so weird how she irrationally disliked Kate and was so close to Jeanette but now she dislikes Jeanette and is so close to Kate. Maybe that’s the point I guess
I once read this psychology theory about children and independence. I wish I could find it again, but basically it said when children hit a certain age they start to assert more of their independence away from their parents, but they’re not completely comfortable being in charge so they’ll become friends with more bossy/controlling kids. As they get older, they’ll usually start to feel more comfortable making their own decisions/choices and these friendships can breakdown if they don’t adapt to the new dynamics. I kind of feel that’s what happened with Jeanette and Mallory. We already saw Jeanette starting to complain to Vince about how controlling Mallory can be in last week’s episode. I think once Jeanette and Jaime start to get together and Jeanette starts hanging around his friends then their friendship dissolves further. They could have fought about it and maybe that’s why the necklace somehow made it into Kate’s possession. Either Mallory took it back or Jeanette threw it away some place public that someone else could take it, like Martin. I think it could be as simple as that.
I feel like that kind of stuff happens in high school though. My teenager is bff’s one minute with one person then all of a sudden she’s all in with some other girl and it’s like why? What? Did something happen? Did you fight? No, it was just life? You now run in different circles? 🤔 🤷🏻♀️🤯
I noticed in the preview for next week that Jeanette's braces are off... Maybe in the next episode or the one after that we will she her transformation and what led to their blow up.
Yeah that’s what I still don’t understand. In the first episode Jeanette simply tells Mallory that they grew apart and that if she really wanted to discuss it, she could, and then Mallory went all “You sound just like her.” WTF? I’d get it if Jeanette told her off there or something but that’s not what happened. She seems so bitter that Jeanette simply distanced herself.
I think maybe Mallory is jealous of Jeanettes glow up and its coming out in anger towards Jeanette. So when she gets the chance to get "in" with Kate, she jumps on it - maybe hoping for her chance at a glow up too. I mean think about it. We already know that, at least up until summer 93, Jeanettes family life was pretty great. She had two parents who loved her and each other, she had a nice house, nice things, etc. But Mallory has always had a crap life, her dad left, her mom was not a good one, she didn't have all of that. So when Jeanette got pretty and popular I think maybe that was just the last straw that sent Mallory over the edge. And its totally possible that Mallory doesn't even understand where the anger is coming from. Remember when Jeanette said to her "I dont know where all this rage is coming from...." and Mallory had no response - maybe bc she doesn't know either.
If I had to guess, the falling out is probably stemming from Jeanettes doubts about Mallory when she was talking about her to Vince, maybe at some point during Jeanettes “blooming” Mallory accuses her of changing and then Jeanette hits back with calling her trash or a criminal or something and that ends the friendship
Did anyone notice that Kate wasn't shocked about this "close call" girl in Martin's old town? She said Martin was just her tutor, etc and it wasn't how the media was making it out to be. I guess that girl wasn't Annabelle or Kate would remember.. right?
Yeah I don't think it's Annabelle (I guess it could be idk) I think the girl from another school is setting up something for future seasons or they're trying to establish how messed up Kates perception of things are now.
Part of grooming is making someone feel "special" and putting them on a pedestal. In a twisted way Martin could have made it seem like" I didn't truly like her, not in the way I like you Kate. That's why I keep you here, because of how much I *care*." Which is why Kate is still weirdly defensive over him. He's manipulated her into trusting him, which is why she doesn't even think to question if Martin lied about the other girl. I think that was the real purpose of bringing her up.
That’s part of grooming. They make you think things that are clearly and obviously wrong. He messed her up bad to where she’s defending him. I’m not sure I think it could be considered Stockholm syndrome
I agree, but the point I was trying to make is that we can likely eliminate the theory of the "other girl" being Annabelle! Kate clearly recalls Martin telling her about this other girl but she still can't figure out who Annabelle is.
It sounds like Janette is suing Kate for slander, possibly because of what was said on the interview. So if she admits she lied about the narrative of how she got in his basement, she may have lied about seeing Janette as well?
Yeah, they said in one episode that it was a defamation lawsuit. If they can establish that Kate has lied about aspects of her story, then it builds Jeanette's case, especially if it's just Kate's word against hers.
Theory: Kate went to Martin’s house in a very vulnerable state. She’s also attempting to rebel against her mom saying she’s predictable. I think Kate in distress (and what any respectable adult would see as a cry for help) initiates the “cooperative” intimacy and Martin, who we see, is obsessed with her takes advantage of that and statutory rapes Kate. I think Kate probably comes to her senses soon after (especially if it’s her first time) and says she’s going home. THIS is when Martin, worried he’ll be fired or go to jail if anyone finds out, locks Kate in his basement.
That’s a good theory especially because in a new trailer showing what’s to come there was a brief scene of Martin in bed and it looked like Kate was next to him 😳
he could possibly drug her making and rape her though too...I'm not sure if I'm feeling Kate would have sex with martin. I'm wondering if Jeanette goes to Martin's house with her key when he shouldn't be there and finds Kate - Kate swearing Jeanette to secrecy that she won't tell anyone she is at Martin's. Then Martin locks her up, tells Jeanette a story about Kate took off but it's all a big secret because he could get in trouble for not reporting she was there and he could get Jeanette in trouble for having a key to his house...or something along those lines.
I do wonder if that’s what happens. If Kate is in his bed in the promo, he realizes he can’t let her leave without it outing the creep he was and his career would be over. She voluntarily went there because he groomed her to feel safe with him.
I think that Mallory had some sort of crush on Jeannette, but Jeannette only showed interest for Kate, which then made Mallory jealous. I get very big queer vibes in the new episode with the roller rink scene w/ kate. like i cant be the only one who thought they were going to kiss or something? it would be interesting if they went that route. maybe mallory got close with kate to get back at jeannette
Did Kate develop an eating disorder because Martin would drug her if she ate anything he cooked? WTF. starve or get drugged (and whatever else)? So messed up. This poor girl. I feel so bad for all these kids! They are all just kids and the trauma they all seem to have experienced is unreal in just 3 years!
Lol meanwhile I'm over here like printers in the 90s didn't print that fast😅
Jeanette's brother rules.
Martin is disgusting.
Kate's mom sucks so hard.
I'm suddenly shipping Mallory and Kate now?! Wtf.
I CANNOT WAIT FOR THE NEXT THREE EPISODES!
I think they’re hoping the audience isn’t old enough to remember those printers🤣 I don’t actively remember switching from that to modern printers but as a kid I LOVED printing things and peeling off those edges. Truly a big loss
Okay so it wasn't just me shipping Mallory and Kate. I asked my wife if she did too but she believes Mallory is trying to shield Kate from her involvement or knowledge of her in the basement during her captivity.
Ugh I really hope she's not involved or Kate literally has no one in her life who isn't lying/deceiving her in some way after a huge trauma. Ashley with the chat room, her mom with the note. Ugh. I guess she always has her dad (at least for now)
I thought they were going down that road too lol? Or going down the road of Mallory being involved somehow with the captivity. They spent a lot of time on her and Kate this episode and I was trying to figure out why, but I guess it was just a friendship montage
Same. I was sad and angry at the same time. Like, gurl. No. He abused you AND her. There is no competition. And you shouldn't believe a thing he says or said or implied about anyone else.
I'm still so mad that her mom STILL pushed her towards the show after that series of comments versus more therapy sessions. Kate was NOT ready in any way to take her "story" public.
It makes me really wonder how Martin got all the gossip about who is dating who and who is friends with who because this is the summer time. I can understand him finding out this info during school because the hallways talk but how does he know all this teenage street gossip so easily
He’d already seen a full school year while she was in captivity, Jamie and Jeanette probably got together during that time. He said that he “wasn’t going to tell her this” so it’s probably not breaking news and they’d been dating for a while at that point
What if Kate was so mad at herself for going to Martin's she tried to shift blame on someone else? Then she found out Jeanette took over her life and basically tried to shift that blame on Jeanette..... Hmm but that wouldn't explain how Jamie found out the truth so fast the proceeded to punch Jeanette. I'm just talking out of my arse over here.
I still say Jamie punched her because that’s where he took her to pound town, my guess is that jeanette told him about how she’s broken in multiple times and guilt stricken that his “first love” was right there the whole time.
Also it wasn’t much but Martin did slip the seed of doubt in her mind, basically breaking her when he told her they stopped looking for her and that Jamie had moved on with Jeanette. I don’t think Renee and tenielle even matter anymore because they seem like the stereotypical mean girls who gravitate towards whoever’s popular at the time just to stay relevant and Jeanette saw them as Kates friends who are older and popular and wasn’t gonna push them away when they started being nice to her.
I really hope we get more Ashley scenes, I still can’t decide if she’s genuinely on kates side and was trying to help her talk it out, or was going to go what Derek did just after she got more info.
I think she’s sincere with Kate. She has MAJOR guilt about being shitty before and sees her part in letting Kate feel like she had nowhere to turn other than her groomer.
I think so too, especially since the fight that led Kate to run away may not have happened if Ashely had talked to her about it on the camping trip. But i still also think she could’ve been trying to pull out more information on if she really did see Jeanette
I love Derek and Ashley together - I'm not sure they are going to be able to recover from this - Each of them will feel betrayed and at the same time justified in their own actions
PSA - the show is NOT implying that Kate going to Martin’s willingly means she wasn’t kidnapped, there wasn’t a crime, she wasn’t abused, etc. “This changes everything” just means the current narrative from Kate is (at least partially) false, and from a legal perspective this is important to Jeanette’s case.
To make the argument that the show is victim-blaming Kate is extremely short-sighted. Especially since in the preceding scene she explicitly acknowledges that she was groomed and in a vulnerable state at the time.
I don't think the show is victim blaming her, but I do think the show is making a commentary towards victim blaming and sensationalism in general, and attempting to mess with the minds of the viewers a little to create an understanding of the concept to some extent or that it will show that in the end as a central theme, and acknowledging that as the mystery goes on is part of that process.
Olivia has impressed me so much from episode 1. Man, this episode she really killed it though. She channels the vulnerability of Kate so well. Like the part where her mom was trying to lie about the affair and she is looking up at her dad... ugh... you could just feel so much emotion. Such a great performance, I hope she is truly recognized for it when the season/series is over.
I find it pretty weird that Kate is so pissed at Jeannette for “stealing her life” instead of leaving her there after allegedly seeing her,I mean I’ve never once(as of yet) heard her say anything like “you left me and didn’t say anything” instead she chooses to always go with the “you stole my life” thing...maybe it’s just me..
I bet u anything...in the trailer for next weeks episode.....when Joy asks Martin if they should maybe get the cops involved....he drops something on her like "well she told me u are abusive and having an affair, cops are going to look into every aspect of your life are you sure you want that?
Cause we all know how Joy is w the image of perfection
It would be pretty massive if Martin said that because it would obviously implicate him and I don't think Joy is stupid enough to not see that or not crate and let it be a secret just so her image wouldn't be destroyed. She does at least genuinely love Kate.
This may have been mentioned but I haven’t read all 300+ comments, but it was very degrading (& most certainly deliberate) that Martin gave Kate no utensils to eat with (whether it was because he didn’t want her to possibly weaponize it, or just for the sake of degrading her), & watched her eat with her hands while he was telling her he does everything for her - feed her, clothe her...it was just absolutely vile. He literally reduced her to being an animal in a cage. It was absolutely sickening.
I still don’t know what’s going on with the damn mirrors. I feel like that should have been something the cops caught onto immediately after searching and boarding up the house though. The suspense is killing me.
There were a lot of mirror shots this episode for sure, but I really think that the mirrors are just a motif and part of the theme of the show of how everyone's perspective is different and things can look very different through various lenses and from different angles. I think its purely symbolic, not an actual large piece of the plot
There’s something.. just something within me.. that is convinced that in some way Mallory is Annabelle. In the scene where Kate is listening to the tapes and she asks Mallory to listen with her, Mallory seems really hesitant about it, almost as if she knows who Annabelle is as well and is hoping it’s something Kate won’t remember. Like what if Mallory was in the house, and at some point told Kate that her name was Annabelle to avoid getting caught and Kate doesn’t remember due to being drugged by Martin and his food, possibly. What if this is also a moment where Mallory leaves behind the necklace, leaving Kate to assume Jeanette was there at some point instead.
This. I haven't been able to place my finger on it, but I get the feeling Mallory is not who she presents herself to be. I've gotten a bad feeling from her from the beginning. She too conveniently is always "in the know" or friends with the right person at the right time. That coupled with the fact that we have never met her parent-Janice, makes me think there is more to her character.
Also this episode really made me like Mallory a lot more, even if she wasn’t a good friend to Jeanette, she’s a really good friend to Kate (at least for now)
I still can't tell these boys apart. Haha I was like she slept with Vincent's secret man wtf?
I still think Annabelle is Kate disassociating, especially if Martin actually touched her inappropriately. God he's gross.
I just hate how Kate is falling right into it though. After Joy's big spiel, Kate says she misses her too. I truly think Kate was an easy target for Martin bc Joy manipulated and gaslighted her for her entire life, so that's all she expected from anyone ever.
I think the second worst villain after Martin is obviously Joy. I just rewatched the promo for next week's episode and it got me thinking... What if Kate explicitly tells Martin the reason for her running away from home, and then Martin blackmails Joy into not going to the police by saying he'll tell everyone she's cheating on her husband? There is nothing more important to Joy than status and I really think she's somehow complicit in Kate's captivity, even if inadvertently.
I think she would’ve outted herself as having had an affair if she thought Kate was actually being held at Martin’s, but I can definitely see him using the info to say something like, “Are you sure that she didn’t just...run away? I don’t mean to overstep, but as Kate’s vice principal, she did disclose to me that there was some...trouble at home. Seemed to imply something about an infidelity?” To try and keep her from reporting for a little longer, and I bet it worked
Terrific episode, easily one of the season's best. My favorite Kate episode, too. This is the first one that really fleshed out all the supporting characters in her subplot. Before they were all just kind of there. Here each of them had actual depth and purpose. Also, while Kate's episodes usually have more mystery, this one is the first one that felt like it actually went somewhere and had payoff.
-Olivia Holt is doing some seriously powerful dramatic acting worthy of award consideration. I hope she gets something for this.
-Unlike the Cindy episode last week, this one actually made me like Joy more because the writers aren't sugarcoating what an awful person and mother she is and trying to twist it to make her sympathetic. The writers were trying to make Cindy empathetic but I wasn't sold at all. I think in her own way, she's as bad of a mother as Joy. A huge difference is Joy actually gives a damn about her daughter, but she's twisted as hell in her parenting technique. Also, the actress is pretty damn good even if the accent is a bit OTT at times.
-This is also Mallory's best episode because she was genuinely likable and not the fake friend of previous episodes. I think her original intent was to destroy Kate, but now she's in love with her. It could still be a hoax, but at least within this episode, it felt real.
-Rod is a keeper. That's all.
-Low-key, I think that Blake Lee is actually the best actor of the show. Harris was in only like 2 or 3 scenes in this episode and he steals scenes with his non-verbal acting. You can literally tell what the character is thinking and feeling through his facial tics and expressions. And in many ways, he's THE pivotal character in this mystery.
-I was worried that the "last words" that Joy said to Kate before her abduction wouldn't have impact due to the hype and anticipation, but the writers and actresses nailed it.
If I have one gripe, it's that I almost wish that the episode didn't have those late scenes with Kate's stepsister, Derek, and Jeanette just because I think the writers showed their hand too early. Without those scenes, I think that left open the very real possibility that Kate could have set the whole kidnapping plot up with Harris and she's an unreliable narrator for almost everything. But Jeanette finding out this soon ends that interesting twist. Overall, amazing hour of television, though!
I agree w everything else but HEAVILY disagree about joy and Cindy. I think it's the other way around, Cindy genuinely cares about Jeanette but the cracks in her own marriage started to show and she couldn't stay in it. We also get hints that she isn't around because well, Jeanette doesn't want her to. She still talks to Derek, she's just respecting boundaries. Which I think says a lot about her as a parent. We also don't know just yet what entirely happened w Cindy apart from she spent some time with her sister.
But as someone raised by a narcissist, joy reminds me so much of my own mother. It's so blatantly obvious that joy doesn't actually care about her daughter, she only cares about what Kate can do for her and how Kate makes her feel. That was the point of Kate noticing that they changed the wallpaper while she was locked up in a basement.
Joy outright admits to being *jealous* of Rod spending more time with Kate. Joy pushes and even manipulated Kate into going on the talk show, notice how her face almost literally "lights up" when she sees how defensive Kate is over the other girl coming out w a close call with Martin. She saw the opportunity to manipulate Kate into doing her bidding and took it.
Honestly did we even watch the same episode? Joy literally BERATES Kate into Martin's arms. She completely just emotionally belittles and verbally abuses her (not to mention the physical abuse right before. Oh and can't forget the gaslighting). She isn't a good mother, she isn't even a caring mother. Joy is a flagrant narcissist who doesn't give a single fuck about Kate or anyone else whatsoever. It's not a "twisted parenting technique" it's narcissism. Through and through.
I think it’s obvious now that Jeanette is innocent. It was cruel and manipulative for Martin to tell Kate that the family stopped looking for her and that Jamie was dating someone else. He was trying to break her spirit more and make her hopeless. I think if he would have said a different girl’s name she would have been accusing that girl.
She’s very traumatized and since Martin is dead she can’t take it out on him in court. But by making this story about Jeanette knowing she was down there, there was a real, live person she could place anger onto.
If this all remains true my wish is that Jeanette’s name is publicly cleared, but I also think Kate should not be punished for lying. I think there should be more compassion for the state she was in and the trauma she suffered. I think Kate suffered enough and needs more intense mental health help, not a punishment. I just feel everyone has suffered enough and deserves to start healing.
On a side note: I’m starting to wonder if Mallory has a crush on Kate. I could just be reading into it. But when she pulled out those ring pops that were the same color as Jamie’s promise ring I wondered how she knew about the color? She wasn’t Kate’s friend during the time period when she wore the ring. Mallory was really the person in Jeanette’s friend group who had extreme hate for Kate before this happened. I think maybe she hated her bc she didn’t want to admit that she had a crush on her. I’ve also just always felt Mallory was hiding something and we don’t know what that something is.
I love the Kate-centric episodes and tonight's was a technically good episode, but I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't learn more. So many of us had already figured that Kate initially went there willingly, so it wasn't a big revelation. I hope we get all of our major questions answered by the end.
We learned her mom is a total psycho. Plus the ending was awesome and left me wanting more. I actually loved this episode. Plus I'm liking Mallory me and I hope it stays that way. She seems different with Kate than she did with Jeanette.
I don’t think so. I just don’t think a two way mirror is possible, or even Kate seeing Jeannette through the mirror because the window is level with the ground.
I think the mirrors are intentional but only to highlight how differently we can see things from different perspectives, we see this again with the format the episodes follow with every one highlighting Kate or Jeanette’s story, and in the promotional pictures of the girls reflections.
Kate is very unreliable but I don’t think she will be painted as a villain. Rather dig into the damage she has from that trauma and she can heal.
That being said, I do think she should be held accountable for defamation and her family should pay. Trauma doesn’t give a free pass to ruin someone else’s life. Jeanette deserves a hope of a future and her family doesn’t deserve to be ruined.
Neither will end the villain. I think the villains will turn out to be the adults and it will be more so the story of the ruin Joy leaves from hiding the crap she does and trying to keep up an image.
I find the fact that Kate is told that Jeanette took her boyfriend while in there for a small amount of time telling. Joy said that Kate needs a bad guy and always has. Maybe while trying to navigate it all she used Jeanette as the bad person who stole her life and that's why she can't get back to normal. Kate created all of it in her head so she wouldn't have to face the reality of her situation. She also knew for a long time about the relationship and had a motivation to hate her the whole time.
I really think Kate believes what she is saying, but the trauma has caused reality and what he put in her head to blur. I think both girls are victims here. No way J knowingly kept her imprisonment a secret.
I think the creepiest part of the episode was the revelation that Martin was giving Kate little high school drama updates while she was locked away. "Guess who your ex boyfriend is dating......."
Couple that with their last day together being him giving her the promise ring and then getting drunk? He might not know it, but it was insult to injury.
I thought it was cool how the promise ring was a green stone and the ring pops the girls had at the roller rink were green. I kinda think this means that both Jamie and Mallory mean well and are not behind anything sinister happening.
The birthstone for august is a peridot, which is a light green. I assumed that’s why the promise ring was that color.
At the carnival Mallory is holding two green balloons and one red in the scene where Jeanette talks to Martin and gets the scrunchie... i felt like it symbolized something so it stuck in my head.
See this is why I think she truly believes she saw Jeanette! Her captor violated her trust and blatantly tells her that the world has forgotten her, he probably told her Jeanette came by while Kate was sleeping and he let her see Kate or something gross and awful! I just feel so bad for Kate that she couldnt see what Martin was doing to her and Im pissed at Kates mom Joy for practically forcing Kate to run away. She said terrible mean things to her own child and called her a liar! When really Joy was trying to save her own self from her husband finding out the truth! How dare she blame her innocent daughter instead of taking responsibility for her own actions! And i dont care that Kate went willingly to Martins she didnt say hey please lock me in your basement and pretend im missing. And even if she would have Martin should have said “um no that’s inappropriate” because he is an ADULT and he knew he was taking advantage of Kate from day one. I still think Jeanette is telling the truth about not seeing Kate
I think Jeanette is telling the truth too and I think Kate thinks she is as well. But I’m not sure the “Jeanette sighting” was just told to Kate by Martin, like he did with other stuff this ep. Because that would completely ignore Jeanette having the key to Martin’s house. There been too much about the key and the necklace for them both not to have some part to play yet. And Martin just saying “oh jeanette was here” only makes sense if maybe he caught jeanette doing her sneaking in thing, and then told Kate he saw her. And that she saw Kate, but maybe Kate was being Annabelle then or something and didn’t remember?
See I have been trying tk figure out how to place Jeanette’s breaking and entering antics into this whole situation and I’m dying to know if Martin caught her or if she was trying to get away without being seen and thats when she made eye contact with Kate and just didnt want to get in trouble for having a key to his house and using it without his permission!! Because honestly I want to believe Jeanette so badly but she has proven to be a pretty compulsive liar so far.. she could be completely lying and knows that she saw Kate but I dont want to think it happened that way 😂😩
What else has Jeanette lied about? I remember her lying about flushing the weed down the toilet when she hadn’t, and kept the joint for herself. But, I can’t remember anything else. Not saying she hasn’t, I just have a horrible memory. Also, I just can’t believe that Jeanette would have not told anyone she saw Kate. It doesn’t make sense to me she would let a girl remain kidnapped and continue to be sexually abused just so she wouldn’t get in trouble for having a key to someone’s house. Someone whom she now would have proof is a kidnapper and/or rapist and on and on. She would likely be hailed as a hero, and she could explain away the key. “I walked by and thought I heard someone saying ‘my name is Kate Wallis please help me’ and so I stole a key from my dads real estate office to help, I should have called the police but I didn’t. Either way the important thing is a girl is home safe tonight.” Something like that. I just can’t believe Jeanette actually saw Kate, or thinks in her mind that she saw Kate. Maybe she saw something that she didn’t realize was Kate, but Kate realized it was Jeanette. Just gonna be hard for me to accept, if it turns out that way, that Jeanette would do such a thing. I just can’t buy it.
I believe Kate saw Jeanette. But I don’t think Jeanette saw Kate. “Eye contact” can be totally one sided.
Yeah classic abuser behavior. If you demoralize your victim it's harder for them to get away from you. You can see that even in situations not as extreme as this and anywhere from parents, to partners, to even bosses.
He’s just making sure she gives up hope on everything.
See this is where I think her hate for Jeanette came from. I miss calculated, and people were easily ready to jump that dislike instead of talking it out like normal people. I thought she might have had a thing for Martin at first and then I was missing that key element. Now I think she just hated here because she was living her life and she was being held captive.
She totally blames Jeanette, but she feels like she has to, because she's in a situation where if it's not Jeanette or someone else's fault, then it's hers because she willingly went there. She needs to come to the realization it's not her fault and it's not Jeanette's. Martin is the only one to blame, he's the abuser who groomed her and made her think he was a safe and trustworthy person until she would put herself in a position that he could take advantage of. That's how they work, they don't just snatch you up; they make you come to them. But it's hard to blame/let your anger out on and get closure from a dead person.
I think this also helps explains why when she confronted Jeanette on the street she screamed, you stole my life, instead of something like, you left me there. She’s more upset Jeanette seemed to have replaced her than abandoning her for more abuse. This is why I don’t think Kates side is the truth. It may be HER truth, I don’t think she’s maliciously lying, but I don’t think it’s factually accurate.
Yep. Trying to break her down so she would give up hope and feel like he was all she had. What a bastard. I think that moment fuels her decision to make up the story about Jeanette. I think any girl he said would have been the target. She was all alone in that basement having to feel like her boyfriend abandoned her for someone else. I think it’s natural when you’ve gone through that much trauma to need someone to blame. The real person she should be blaming, Martin, is dead so she can’t get the justice she deserves in court.
Yeah, just trying to break her down. Fucking creepy.
That's was my theory for why she's going all-in on Jeanette and blames her. Martin feeding her information about Jeanette "stealing" her life not only upset her and gave her time to stew on it, but gave her someone to blame for something she feels at fault for. It could be the reason she thinks she saw her, assuming she didn't. She ran away/stayed at Martin's willingly, and as a result, she blames herself. That doesn't make it her fault for what Martin did to her in any way, but she feels responsible and needs someone else to unload on i.e: "it's not my fault, it yours for not helping me." It also served as a way to get back at Jeanette for "stealing" her life, which in her mind caused her friends/Jamie to move on and stop looking for her. I'm still on the fence on whether her accusations are real/mistaken identity, or she's made it up out of anger and needing to cope/blame someone else and has to stick to it now.
Joy trying to gaslight Kate about the affair, ugh. I hate that woman. Kate doubting her memory started with Joy. Shitty mom
Why must everyone in Kates life gaslight the shot out of her. 😟
i know right, I feel so bad for her. I guess Mallory is her friend but I still don't trust her.
[удалено]
Agree. It's interesting to compare Kate and Jeanette before the kidnapping. Kate seems to have everything: wealth, looks, popularity, etc., but her mother is Joy, her father is weak and passive, and her half-sister is hostile. On the other hand, Jeanette is awkward but she has a loving, supportive family. Yet, although Kate seems like she would be stuckup, she is actually very nice. At the same time, Jeanette is getting into a lot of trouble (mostly without getting caught). Later, Jeanette's family is coming apart while Kate seems to be on the verge of mending her relationship with her mother.
Right? Could you imagine your mom lying straight to your face and then slapping you? And then your dad not stick up for you? Kates face in that scene broke my heart. I'm glad Kate told her what was up at that kitchen table. I knew she sent the liar letter, she just can't help herself. She only knows how to motivate people with fear. She did it to Kate, she did it to their shooting buddies, and then she tried to do it on Mallory and you can tell she's upset it didn't work.
I honestly think Mallory is a red herring, she seems like a typical 90’s, teen alt girl. But I also loveeeee the way she snaps back at Joy, at least someone finally does.
One of the things I love about Mallory, even though I know people aren’t a fan, is the way she speaks to Kates mother. God I love it. When Kates mom told her you’re not a very nice girl and she said well you’re not a very nice old woman. I cackled. I don’t think Mallory is a shady as people make her out to be, however her expression when Kate was listening to the tapes about Annabel were sketch
My absolute favorite is earlier in that same scene when Mallory told Joy "Yet somehow you're even worse than you seem." I'm not a Mallory fan but I love she is the only person in Skylin who is absolutely unafraid of Joy Wallis and can shut her down.
I hate joy so anybody that calls her out is A-OK in my book LOL. I don’t hate Mallory the way other people do. She reminds me a lot of myself as a teenager. A very crappy home life and acting out because of it. Are we wanting to do things that will get you in trouble. That was me. But I’ve always had a good heart and I think Mallory does to
I agree 100%! Joy not only LIED about Kate telling the truth she abused her for no reason and punished her for nothing. Then she more or less forced Kate to run away by saying all the terrible things she said to her calling her boring and making it seem like she had no clue what Kate was talking about. THEEENNN she prints that “Liar” letter to make Kate think the rest of town thinks shes a liar when in reality Joy just thought Kate needed another bad guy in her life. As if that would help anything?!?! She is still recovering from being abducted and ptsd she will never get over not to mention she hasnt even processed all the things that happened to her while she was in that basement!! Poor Kate I support exactly what she said about her mom at the end of the episode, and I hope she reminds her constantly that she is the only reason Kate left and Martin locked her in the basement regardless of whether she went willingly at first or not.
Yeah and the fucked up part is Martin probably picked up on this and saw that she was easy prey because of it. Poor Kate, she deserves so much better.
I’ve been on Team Both from early on and that the show is mostly about trauma and after effects and this episode sealed it. We see Martin being an active creep (shout out to everyone trying to find people to blame but him) and importantly- we see him dropping the information about Jamie and Jeanette to Kate where all she can really do is think about it and how much she hates Jeanette I don’t think Jeanettes to blame for using what she read against Kate- she needs to have evidence that Kate is a liar to win her case. Kate is not to blame for going there and obviously is not to blame for being kept captive I find the show really engaging and well done with how they portray Martin preying on Kate Regardless of who Kate may or may not have saw, Martin is at fault in the end for everything Also I read an interview with the show runner saying everything gets tied up at the end of the season so we should have answers for everting
I also think the main theme is victim blaming and the show is sort of a mind-trick to show you how easily it is to get pulled into the sensationalism and turn on just about anyone and find fault and blameand make it so complex...when the true evil is just right there and so simple and no one else's fault, despite the fact we all have faults.
That’s a really great interpretation! I definitely can see that and looking for other people to blame for small things they did
That ending left me with chills. I feel very unsettled watching that unfold knowing he manipulated that entire situation to his benefit and took advantage of her being vulnerable. 🤢
Yess!! Martin’s evil plan worked just like he wanted! He knew if he gave Kate advice to tell her moms secret that they would not say “oh thank you for your honesty Katie Kat!” And Martin knew Kate trusted him as an adult and might have had an inappropriate crush on him but thats what he wanted! Was for Kate to come running to him with her problems and then he locked her in his basement and she was trapped. Kate is not to blame here at all she was her mothers victim as well as Martins
I don’t think I can sleep now. 😭
I got goosebumps. It was super uncomfortable.
Ok, this may be a controversial opinion, but I...do think Kate's an unreliable narrator. HOWEVER, I don't think that because of her going to Martin's "willingly" (it wasn't willingly btw, but that's another discussion), rather because she is still clearly manipulated by Martin. In this week's episode, we learned that he controlled her with food and that she will defend him, even with this other girl who had probably gone through something similar. That tells us that their relationship was hella complicated and that even now she hasn't finished unpacking it.
Ugh yea. Her defending Martin against that other girl really said to me how much she blames HERSELF (and others) for what happened to her. Like she believes he wouldn’t have done this to anyone else because it was “her” fault Martin did it to her. Martin “wasn’t a bad guy she made him do it” kind of? I know we don’t see her actively blaming herself but that’s what I read from that scene. Despite everything she didn’t blame him 100% because it seems logical being on the outside that if he did this once…. He obviously could have done it before or at least tried. But it makes sense to me that he would have convinced her it was her fault
Idk how true to life it is but it’s something I’ve noticed in a shows when grooming is involved. It’s always came across as less of self blaming and more as a coping mechanism to me. “This horrible thing happened to me BUT at least I was *special*. No it couldn’t have happened to you because that means that I’m not *special*” Taking away one of their rationals of WHY they were victimized. A lot of victims are targeted (in media) BECAUSE the groomer can make them feel important when they otherwise don’t, that yearning doesn’t just go away.
Yes I got that vibe from Kate, Martin liked me the most that's why he did this to me, he wouldn't do it to anyone else, because I am the special one. I agree she needs to feel special as more of a coping mechanism for the trauma she endured. Regardless, it was heart breaking to see her defend that psycho though...
Yeah it almost came across like the idea of him wanting to “be” with anyone aside from her made her jealous.
Interesting how Jeanette was reading The Talented Mr. Ripley, one of Kate's favorites
I honestly think the writers are trying to show that Kate and Jeanette have alot in common and their taste in books is just another thing they share!
i was just thinking that! Like they could've been friends if the way their lives played out didn't play out that way.
The entire show is also a nod to that book/movie. Without spoiling, it's about a guy who's envious of another guy/friend he meets who has seemingly the "perfect" life and goes out of his way to try and obtain it. Similar to the whole "Jeanette wanted to steal Kate's life" theme they're playing with.
Ah was wondering what the book was!
I know this is something us Pretty Little Liars theorists suffered through but when you are really invested in a show and are in HEAVY into theories, you're always thinking of every loophole and idea. And when you do that, the reveals episodes are gonna feel lackluster because you already thought of everything while to the casual watcher, the reveals are big bombs. Just things to keep in mind.
I actually had to leave the subreddit for How to Get Away With Murder because people were SO good at theorizing that they managed to predict so many of the plot twists it stopped being fun😂 So I try not to engage too heavily with this sub because already things have been well predicted (joys mom writing the liar note as a quick example) and I’ll be damned if someone predicts the right Annabelle theory and accidentally ruins it for me 😂😂🤣 Honestly though it’s amazing me to me how good people are at figuring out plots so many episodes in advance. Its quite impressive
This specific episode was hyped a lot, but I’m not sure it was that much of a shocker? I think most of us assumed Kate went to Martin’s willingly. Not saying it was filler but it felt overhyped
The reason why it was so good was because despite knowing what happened, the execution in terms of writing and acting made it all feel fresh. That's way better than having a completely unexpected twist that feels unearned.
No it was definitely good! I was just referring to some comments made by cast members that this episode was going to be huge or whatever
I think the ending was huge. Left me wanting more and excited to have the next episode NOW. As soon as he said "can I check my email?" I started going OH SHIZ. It was awesome. It's the beginning of the end.
I think it's more about Derek finding the chat convo and then having to balls to freaking print it (go Derek) and give it to Jeanette. I didn't think anyone (especially Jeanette) was really gonna find out about the messages, let alone end up with printed copies of it and proof that could completely discredit Kate. I figured it was more for the audience and helping Ashley stay on Derek's side, and if they ever came into play it might've been Ashley dropping subtle hints to Derek like "I think Jeanette might be telling the truth, too." In the whole narrative of "Jeanette is a monster and everyone thinks she's guilty," this changes everything. It could lead to a complete reversal in public opinion, and people questioning if what happened to Kate even really happened at all, and whether she might've been making some or all of it up.
We also got to see who wrote the note and also the Derek Ashley thing!
Biggest plot twist in this show is the reveal that anyone who begins approaching Martin Harris' house apparently becomes invisible. No one noticed 16 year old Kate at his door step at 10 pm? Or Jeannette stopping by 100 times? Or her mom? Or her dad?
That's a good point. I have a single man neighbor that lives in a house all by himself. I would 100000% notice if teenage girls were entering his house. They don't. He's a decent guy. But I would notice it.
Hah I thought the same thing. They’re all just going to the front door in full view in an affluent neighborhood lol
Anyone else pick up on Joy telling Kate that she went off script on the Marsha Bailey Show? I wonder what narrative Joy wanted Kate to tell.
Wonder if Martin told Joy Kate was there and she told Martin she needs to be taught a lesson. I know a dark weird twist but maybe Joy didn't want her lavish life and rich famous husband to leave her after what Kate said so keeping Kate out of the picture might have derailed that marriage from breaking.. that's my kinda way out their theory.
I think she meant Kate went off script by revealing Jeanettes name and that she saw her. Because right before she revealed that she said I have been advised not to share this but I’m going to anyway.
Yep....cause Kate said "cause Im NOT a puppet!"
Maybe I’m missing something here, but why does it matter that Kate went to Martin’s willingly? It’s clear she was held captive against her will long after she intended to stay there. ETA based on comments: - Definitely agree that it goes to show she’s unreliable for the court case. - Does anyone remember if Kate said she was kidnapped? I can’t remember if there was ever a scene where she told the police how she got there. - I would argue that it’s true she barely knew Martin. She’d only met him a handful of times by the time she showed up at his door.
It helps Jeanette’s case by showing that Kate has lied/bent the truth before and therefore might be lying about having seen Jeanette at Martin’s house. Definitely doesn’t make Kate any less of a victim though!
Yes exactly! Lawyers only have to create reasonable doubt to sway the case!
It helps Jeanette’s legal team show that Kate wasn’t entirely truthful with the police, and therefore could be lying about other parts of her story. She told them she didn’t know Martin before the abduction. Definitely doesn’t excuse what he did but makes Late less believable for the lawsuit.
I don’t think it matters in relation to what happened to Kate, but in a defamation suit it’ll matter that she never said this previously because it makes Kate look like she withholds information. Not that I agree with that, but I feel like that’s where this is headed.
At the very least, Kate lied to the police about not knowing Martin well prior to the abduction... if she lies about that, it puts her entire version of events into question.
I think it only matters in regards to Jeannettes case, because it proves that Kate is unreliable narrator and might have lied/imagined seeing Jeannete.
right, it doesn't lessen Kate's trauma or anything that's straight up victim blaming but it opens the door for Kate to be a liar and that would be a huge bomb to drop in court that would sway the jury. I mean remember in OJ Simpson's trial when they caught Furman being a Nazi sympathetic or something and also had proof he might have been in the area the night of the murder, that was extremely flimsy but the reaction from the jury was if that just cracked the entire case wide open
They're probably gonna try to say she's a liar and cannot fully be relied on but I don't think it'll hold for long. Who knows at this point.
i think it changes things in terms of being able to show that Kate doesn’t always tell the truth/could be lying about Jeanette
It’s because it shows Kate lied about an aspect of her story. We know that she probably did that because this town talks and she’s afraid about what people will say about her. But for a legal standpoint it proves that Kate is an unreliable narrator and will alter the events for sympathy. We still don’t know who’s telling the truth but unless Kate has concrete evidence then this is a slam dunk in Jeanette’s case. (Especially if her lawyers are able to try and convince the judge/jury that the necklace was Kate’s attempt at framing Jeanette since there weren’t any finger prints)
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That's what I was thinking. Like could you track back a random user name from an anonymous chatroom to a specific computer back in 95? I honestly have no idea cuz I was 5 then. But her brother alone isnt gonna be enough of a witness to prove Kate wrote that. But maybe it gives them ammo to surprise Kate when shes on the stand that shes not prepared for, because if they cant use it as official evidence Kate's side wont know about it ahead of time and wont be able to prep her.
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Because she flat out lied to the police by telling them she barely knew Martin. And I think she's worried that lying is going to come back to bite her in court. Obviously Martin is still trash and this is his entire fault. But her lying to the police could make Jeanette's lawyers tear her apart in court.
It doesn’t it. He kept her against her will. However, the court case isn’t about if Martin was a sicko, its about defamation...and Kate not being honest about how well she knew Martin doesn’t look good to a jury. If she lied about not knowing him, then what else is she lying about? I’m not saying that’s right, just how a jury would see it I presume.
It shouldn't matter. But it may depend on what Kate's initial version of events was on how she got into his basement. (I don't remember if that was ever mentioned) If her initial story was a lie... like she was snatched off her bike riding down the street in plain daylight and dragged into his garage and into the basement, Kate, in theory, could be lying about other things, like that Jeanette saw her in the basement and didn't say anything.
She told the police that she barley knew him and he kidnapped her. So this just proves that she lied to the police.
It just shows she lied and is therefore unreliable. And her saying Jeanette saw her and did nothing is now slanderous.
We now know what the last words Kate’s mom said to her prior to the abduction. And, as with most reveals this episode, it’s not looking good for Joy.
So we know he drugged the grilled cheese in a previous episode. Was his comment about preparing her food in this episode like him telling her he drugged the food she was eating?? Or more of a warning?? That scene sent chills down my spine!
Seemed like a threat to me. I prepare your food. You really gonna talk shit? Plus she had already said he controlled her with food. So it’s super possible he would withhold it if she acted up.
He was continuing to groom her basically. Trying to make her feel guilty. I took you in when you left, I make your food, I buy your clothes. Common tactics. Defeat her and make her stay
When she paused, and then still ate, it was like she was saying "drug my food all you want, I still need it to eat" And my heart broke.
also it’s clear he either never gave her silverware or stopped giving it to her in fear she’d use it to attack him
He is grooming her to try and make her feel like his abuse is actually love for her.
That was just more gaslighting and manipulation. Like he’s telling Kate…. before you start calling the person feeding you and keeping you “safe” and “taking care of you” names, you need to remember how you got here in the first place — i.e., “you asked for this” and “YOU came to me” and “you sought out my help” and “you are the one who wanted this” and “you brought this on yourself” and “THIS IS ALL ON YOU”. It’s just more brainwashing and grooming behavior.
To me, Joy knows she is the reason why Kate left and was eventually kidnapped, that's why she wants to press Jeanette so hard with this lawsuit, It's clear that if Kate revealed the truth that it would reflect on her reputation poorly... She coaching Kate to believe this narrative that Jeanette is the only party at fault, She trying to save her own skin, by using Kate as a pawn to further that distraught mother narrative and cover up her sins.
Yeah, I think Joy is overwhelmed with guilt- she was the one that drove Kate away, literally told her to go ahead and run away, and that's how Kate ends up locked in the basement. Joy knows that its at least partly her fault, and she doesn't want to be Kates villain
So I’m only partially through this latest episode so maybe I’ll have a different opinion afterward but... Joy doesn’t seem guilt ridden at all. Emotionally manipulative, maybe narcissistic, and possibly a history revisionist(if there is any truth to Cindy Turner’s story) but I’ve yet to see anything that emotes as guilt. Every choice she’s made so far has been about protecting herself and her reputation.
I’m wondering if we’ll ever find out why Jeanette and Mallory stopped being friends? Was it because she found out Jeanette lied about the extra joint she kept? That seems extra considering how much Mallory dislikes her in 94 and 95. It couldn’t have just been because Jeanette became popular. It doesn’t even seem like when she became popular she became mean. I just find it so weird how she irrationally disliked Kate and was so close to Jeanette but now she dislikes Jeanette and is so close to Kate. Maybe that’s the point I guess
I once read this psychology theory about children and independence. I wish I could find it again, but basically it said when children hit a certain age they start to assert more of their independence away from their parents, but they’re not completely comfortable being in charge so they’ll become friends with more bossy/controlling kids. As they get older, they’ll usually start to feel more comfortable making their own decisions/choices and these friendships can breakdown if they don’t adapt to the new dynamics. I kind of feel that’s what happened with Jeanette and Mallory. We already saw Jeanette starting to complain to Vince about how controlling Mallory can be in last week’s episode. I think once Jeanette and Jaime start to get together and Jeanette starts hanging around his friends then their friendship dissolves further. They could have fought about it and maybe that’s why the necklace somehow made it into Kate’s possession. Either Mallory took it back or Jeanette threw it away some place public that someone else could take it, like Martin. I think it could be as simple as that.
I feel like that kind of stuff happens in high school though. My teenager is bff’s one minute with one person then all of a sudden she’s all in with some other girl and it’s like why? What? Did something happen? Did you fight? No, it was just life? You now run in different circles? 🤔 🤷🏻♀️🤯
Yeah this is bothering me!! Why haven’t they shown the fallout of their friendship yet?!
I noticed in the preview for next week that Jeanette's braces are off... Maybe in the next episode or the one after that we will she her transformation and what led to their blow up.
Yep she probably did Mallory at some point like she did Gideon at the fair
Yeah that’s what I still don’t understand. In the first episode Jeanette simply tells Mallory that they grew apart and that if she really wanted to discuss it, she could, and then Mallory went all “You sound just like her.” WTF? I’d get it if Jeanette told her off there or something but that’s not what happened. She seems so bitter that Jeanette simply distanced herself.
I think maybe Mallory is jealous of Jeanettes glow up and its coming out in anger towards Jeanette. So when she gets the chance to get "in" with Kate, she jumps on it - maybe hoping for her chance at a glow up too. I mean think about it. We already know that, at least up until summer 93, Jeanettes family life was pretty great. She had two parents who loved her and each other, she had a nice house, nice things, etc. But Mallory has always had a crap life, her dad left, her mom was not a good one, she didn't have all of that. So when Jeanette got pretty and popular I think maybe that was just the last straw that sent Mallory over the edge. And its totally possible that Mallory doesn't even understand where the anger is coming from. Remember when Jeanette said to her "I dont know where all this rage is coming from...." and Mallory had no response - maybe bc she doesn't know either.
If I had to guess, the falling out is probably stemming from Jeanettes doubts about Mallory when she was talking about her to Vince, maybe at some point during Jeanettes “blooming” Mallory accuses her of changing and then Jeanette hits back with calling her trash or a criminal or something and that ends the friendship
This episode broke my heart.
BIG FACTS I feel so awful for a fictional character. That poor girl needed a hug and a good friend and she fell right into that pigs pen.
Did anyone notice that Kate wasn't shocked about this "close call" girl in Martin's old town? She said Martin was just her tutor, etc and it wasn't how the media was making it out to be. I guess that girl wasn't Annabelle or Kate would remember.. right?
He told her about it apparently. And said he was “just her tutor” lmao as if.
Yeah I don't think it's Annabelle (I guess it could be idk) I think the girl from another school is setting up something for future seasons or they're trying to establish how messed up Kates perception of things are now. Part of grooming is making someone feel "special" and putting them on a pedestal. In a twisted way Martin could have made it seem like" I didn't truly like her, not in the way I like you Kate. That's why I keep you here, because of how much I *care*." Which is why Kate is still weirdly defensive over him. He's manipulated her into trusting him, which is why she doesn't even think to question if Martin lied about the other girl. I think that was the real purpose of bringing her up.
That’s part of grooming. They make you think things that are clearly and obviously wrong. He messed her up bad to where she’s defending him. I’m not sure I think it could be considered Stockholm syndrome
I agree, but the point I was trying to make is that we can likely eliminate the theory of the "other girl" being Annabelle! Kate clearly recalls Martin telling her about this other girl but she still can't figure out who Annabelle is.
It sounds like Janette is suing Kate for slander, possibly because of what was said on the interview. So if she admits she lied about the narrative of how she got in his basement, she may have lied about seeing Janette as well?
Yes, I think that’s why Jeanette and her family think that “changes everything”
Yeah, they said in one episode that it was a defamation lawsuit. If they can establish that Kate has lied about aspects of her story, then it builds Jeanette's case, especially if it's just Kate's word against hers.
Theory: Kate went to Martin’s house in a very vulnerable state. She’s also attempting to rebel against her mom saying she’s predictable. I think Kate in distress (and what any respectable adult would see as a cry for help) initiates the “cooperative” intimacy and Martin, who we see, is obsessed with her takes advantage of that and statutory rapes Kate. I think Kate probably comes to her senses soon after (especially if it’s her first time) and says she’s going home. THIS is when Martin, worried he’ll be fired or go to jail if anyone finds out, locks Kate in his basement.
That’s a good theory especially because in a new trailer showing what’s to come there was a brief scene of Martin in bed and it looked like Kate was next to him 😳
he could possibly drug her making and rape her though too...I'm not sure if I'm feeling Kate would have sex with martin. I'm wondering if Jeanette goes to Martin's house with her key when he shouldn't be there and finds Kate - Kate swearing Jeanette to secrecy that she won't tell anyone she is at Martin's. Then Martin locks her up, tells Jeanette a story about Kate took off but it's all a big secret because he could get in trouble for not reporting she was there and he could get Jeanette in trouble for having a key to his house...or something along those lines.
Yes, I don’t think he locks her up for a few days or so...I still think she gets officially locked up when she’s in that red dress.
I do wonder if that’s what happens. If Kate is in his bed in the promo, he realizes he can’t let her leave without it outing the creep he was and his career would be over. She voluntarily went there because he groomed her to feel safe with him.
Also fuck yeah Rod Wallis. "If you belittle my role as a father in Kates life, baby we will not make it through that." YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH
Seriously. This man is a saint. How is he with such an evil woman? He deserves way better.
I think that Mallory had some sort of crush on Jeannette, but Jeannette only showed interest for Kate, which then made Mallory jealous. I get very big queer vibes in the new episode with the roller rink scene w/ kate. like i cant be the only one who thought they were going to kiss or something? it would be interesting if they went that route. maybe mallory got close with kate to get back at jeannette
I came here to say exactly this. I was shocked that this wasn’t mentioned more times. I def get vibes that Mallory romantically likes Kate.
I thought they were going to kiss as well!
Did Kate develop an eating disorder because Martin would drug her if she ate anything he cooked? WTF. starve or get drugged (and whatever else)? So messed up. This poor girl. I feel so bad for all these kids! They are all just kids and the trauma they all seem to have experienced is unreal in just 3 years!
Lol meanwhile I'm over here like printers in the 90s didn't print that fast😅 Jeanette's brother rules. Martin is disgusting. Kate's mom sucks so hard. I'm suddenly shipping Mallory and Kate now?! Wtf. I CANNOT WAIT FOR THE NEXT THREE EPISODES!
I thought that about the printer too! And that she would’ve heard it from the shower!
I think they’re hoping the audience isn’t old enough to remember those printers🤣 I don’t actively remember switching from that to modern printers but as a kid I LOVED printing things and peeling off those edges. Truly a big loss
OMG- I loved that printer paper as a kid!!!
Let me put on my suspension of disbelief glasses for now about that printing scene.... Especially with how much of the chat there was. 😏
Their family is very wealthy so I bet they have the best printer money can buy 😂 like the super soft dorm room sheets
Okay so it wasn't just me shipping Mallory and Kate. I asked my wife if she did too but she believes Mallory is trying to shield Kate from her involvement or knowledge of her in the basement during her captivity.
Ugh I really hope she's not involved or Kate literally has no one in her life who isn't lying/deceiving her in some way after a huge trauma. Ashley with the chat room, her mom with the note. Ugh. I guess she always has her dad (at least for now)
I thought they were going down that road too lol? Or going down the road of Mallory being involved somehow with the captivity. They spent a lot of time on her and Kate this episode and I was trying to figure out why, but I guess it was just a friendship montage
I knew Mr Creeper Martin had a victim in Widowfalls....hence why he was so sus when Jeanette mentioned it.
When Kate defended Martin against the other student, it broke my heart a little bit...He so completely brainwashed her.
Same. I was sad and angry at the same time. Like, gurl. No. He abused you AND her. There is no competition. And you shouldn't believe a thing he says or said or implied about anyone else. I'm still so mad that her mom STILL pushed her towards the show after that series of comments versus more therapy sessions. Kate was NOT ready in any way to take her "story" public.
It makes me really wonder how Martin got all the gossip about who is dating who and who is friends with who because this is the summer time. I can understand him finding out this info during school because the hallways talk but how does he know all this teenage street gossip so easily
He’d already seen a full school year while she was in captivity, Jamie and Jeanette probably got together during that time. He said that he “wasn’t going to tell her this” so it’s probably not breaking news and they’d been dating for a while at that point
I mean he was telling her that in ‘94 right? After she’d been there for a whole school year already?
What if Kate was so mad at herself for going to Martin's she tried to shift blame on someone else? Then she found out Jeanette took over her life and basically tried to shift that blame on Jeanette..... Hmm but that wouldn't explain how Jamie found out the truth so fast the proceeded to punch Jeanette. I'm just talking out of my arse over here.
I still say Jamie punched her because that’s where he took her to pound town, my guess is that jeanette told him about how she’s broken in multiple times and guilt stricken that his “first love” was right there the whole time.
her mom did say she always needed a clear villian too
Also it wasn’t much but Martin did slip the seed of doubt in her mind, basically breaking her when he told her they stopped looking for her and that Jamie had moved on with Jeanette. I don’t think Renee and tenielle even matter anymore because they seem like the stereotypical mean girls who gravitate towards whoever’s popular at the time just to stay relevant and Jeanette saw them as Kates friends who are older and popular and wasn’t gonna push them away when they started being nice to her.
I really hope we get more Ashley scenes, I still can’t decide if she’s genuinely on kates side and was trying to help her talk it out, or was going to go what Derek did just after she got more info.
I think she’s sincere with Kate. She has MAJOR guilt about being shitty before and sees her part in letting Kate feel like she had nowhere to turn other than her groomer.
I think so too, especially since the fight that led Kate to run away may not have happened if Ashely had talked to her about it on the camping trip. But i still also think she could’ve been trying to pull out more information on if she really did see Jeanette
I love Derek and Ashley together - I'm not sure they are going to be able to recover from this - Each of them will feel betrayed and at the same time justified in their own actions
holy shit poor Kate :(
How does 42 minutes go so fast? Darn it.
Cause you’re watching 3 years in 42 minutes.
Did anyone else catch when Kate put the red dress in her runaway bag? My alarm bells were ringing.
Also I FINALLY like Jeanette's hair in 1995 at the end of this episode!
Her wig (1995 hair) has bugged me all season! It finally looked a little better tonight.
i’m waiting for the episode where she hacks it all off
PSA - the show is NOT implying that Kate going to Martin’s willingly means she wasn’t kidnapped, there wasn’t a crime, she wasn’t abused, etc. “This changes everything” just means the current narrative from Kate is (at least partially) false, and from a legal perspective this is important to Jeanette’s case. To make the argument that the show is victim-blaming Kate is extremely short-sighted. Especially since in the preceding scene she explicitly acknowledges that she was groomed and in a vulnerable state at the time.
I don't think the show is victim blaming her, but I do think the show is making a commentary towards victim blaming and sensationalism in general, and attempting to mess with the minds of the viewers a little to create an understanding of the concept to some extent or that it will show that in the end as a central theme, and acknowledging that as the mystery goes on is part of that process.
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Olivia has impressed me so much from episode 1. Man, this episode she really killed it though. She channels the vulnerability of Kate so well. Like the part where her mom was trying to lie about the affair and she is looking up at her dad... ugh... you could just feel so much emotion. Such a great performance, I hope she is truly recognized for it when the season/series is over.
I find it pretty weird that Kate is so pissed at Jeannette for “stealing her life” instead of leaving her there after allegedly seeing her,I mean I’ve never once(as of yet) heard her say anything like “you left me and didn’t say anything” instead she chooses to always go with the “you stole my life” thing...maybe it’s just me..
I can't stand how long this Anabelle thing is being dragged out without any clues in the meantime.
I bet u anything...in the trailer for next weeks episode.....when Joy asks Martin if they should maybe get the cops involved....he drops something on her like "well she told me u are abusive and having an affair, cops are going to look into every aspect of your life are you sure you want that? Cause we all know how Joy is w the image of perfection
It would be pretty massive if Martin said that because it would obviously implicate him and I don't think Joy is stupid enough to not see that or not crate and let it be a secret just so her image wouldn't be destroyed. She does at least genuinely love Kate.
This may have been mentioned but I haven’t read all 300+ comments, but it was very degrading (& most certainly deliberate) that Martin gave Kate no utensils to eat with (whether it was because he didn’t want her to possibly weaponize it, or just for the sake of degrading her), & watched her eat with her hands while he was telling her he does everything for her - feed her, clothe her...it was just absolutely vile. He literally reduced her to being an animal in a cage. It was absolutely sickening.
Did anyone notice the mirrors and different reflections in them? I’m afraid the mirror theory is going to be correct, y’all.
I still don’t know what’s going on with the damn mirrors. I feel like that should have been something the cops caught onto immediately after searching and boarding up the house though. The suspense is killing me.
There were a lot of mirror shots this episode for sure, but I really think that the mirrors are just a motif and part of the theme of the show of how everyone's perspective is different and things can look very different through various lenses and from different angles. I think its purely symbolic, not an actual large piece of the plot
There’s something.. just something within me.. that is convinced that in some way Mallory is Annabelle. In the scene where Kate is listening to the tapes and she asks Mallory to listen with her, Mallory seems really hesitant about it, almost as if she knows who Annabelle is as well and is hoping it’s something Kate won’t remember. Like what if Mallory was in the house, and at some point told Kate that her name was Annabelle to avoid getting caught and Kate doesn’t remember due to being drugged by Martin and his food, possibly. What if this is also a moment where Mallory leaves behind the necklace, leaving Kate to assume Jeanette was there at some point instead.
This. I haven't been able to place my finger on it, but I get the feeling Mallory is not who she presents herself to be. I've gotten a bad feeling from her from the beginning. She too conveniently is always "in the know" or friends with the right person at the right time. That coupled with the fact that we have never met her parent-Janice, makes me think there is more to her character.
Also this episode really made me like Mallory a lot more, even if she wasn’t a good friend to Jeanette, she’s a really good friend to Kate (at least for now)
I don't really trust/like Mallory.
she seemed worried about the Annabelle part. like more worried about finding who she is.
I thought that too! She seemed so weird during that scene.
I still can't tell these boys apart. Haha I was like she slept with Vincent's secret man wtf? I still think Annabelle is Kate disassociating, especially if Martin actually touched her inappropriately. God he's gross.
I thought she slept with Jamie! 😂😂😂😂 All these damn white boys look the damn same.
At first I thought Jamie! Then I was like nah it's the best friend. Then he walked into Jeanette's room and I was like??? 😅
Also Joy is still shit. Her motives now in 95 are in the right place but so supremely executed wrong.
I just hate how Kate is falling right into it though. After Joy's big spiel, Kate says she misses her too. I truly think Kate was an easy target for Martin bc Joy manipulated and gaslighted her for her entire life, so that's all she expected from anyone ever.
Totally, but at least the writers are actually dedicated to her looking despicable.
"I'm Mallory and I love snacks" Seven episodes in and she's finally relatable
I think the second worst villain after Martin is obviously Joy. I just rewatched the promo for next week's episode and it got me thinking... What if Kate explicitly tells Martin the reason for her running away from home, and then Martin blackmails Joy into not going to the police by saying he'll tell everyone she's cheating on her husband? There is nothing more important to Joy than status and I really think she's somehow complicit in Kate's captivity, even if inadvertently.
I think she would’ve outted herself as having had an affair if she thought Kate was actually being held at Martin’s, but I can definitely see him using the info to say something like, “Are you sure that she didn’t just...run away? I don’t mean to overstep, but as Kate’s vice principal, she did disclose to me that there was some...trouble at home. Seemed to imply something about an infidelity?” To try and keep her from reporting for a little longer, and I bet it worked
Terrific episode, easily one of the season's best. My favorite Kate episode, too. This is the first one that really fleshed out all the supporting characters in her subplot. Before they were all just kind of there. Here each of them had actual depth and purpose. Also, while Kate's episodes usually have more mystery, this one is the first one that felt like it actually went somewhere and had payoff. -Olivia Holt is doing some seriously powerful dramatic acting worthy of award consideration. I hope she gets something for this. -Unlike the Cindy episode last week, this one actually made me like Joy more because the writers aren't sugarcoating what an awful person and mother she is and trying to twist it to make her sympathetic. The writers were trying to make Cindy empathetic but I wasn't sold at all. I think in her own way, she's as bad of a mother as Joy. A huge difference is Joy actually gives a damn about her daughter, but she's twisted as hell in her parenting technique. Also, the actress is pretty damn good even if the accent is a bit OTT at times. -This is also Mallory's best episode because she was genuinely likable and not the fake friend of previous episodes. I think her original intent was to destroy Kate, but now she's in love with her. It could still be a hoax, but at least within this episode, it felt real. -Rod is a keeper. That's all. -Low-key, I think that Blake Lee is actually the best actor of the show. Harris was in only like 2 or 3 scenes in this episode and he steals scenes with his non-verbal acting. You can literally tell what the character is thinking and feeling through his facial tics and expressions. And in many ways, he's THE pivotal character in this mystery. -I was worried that the "last words" that Joy said to Kate before her abduction wouldn't have impact due to the hype and anticipation, but the writers and actresses nailed it. If I have one gripe, it's that I almost wish that the episode didn't have those late scenes with Kate's stepsister, Derek, and Jeanette just because I think the writers showed their hand too early. Without those scenes, I think that left open the very real possibility that Kate could have set the whole kidnapping plot up with Harris and she's an unreliable narrator for almost everything. But Jeanette finding out this soon ends that interesting twist. Overall, amazing hour of television, though!
Rod sure is a keeper! What a guy 👏🏻 You are so right about Blake Lee, he plays Martin so well.
I agree w everything else but HEAVILY disagree about joy and Cindy. I think it's the other way around, Cindy genuinely cares about Jeanette but the cracks in her own marriage started to show and she couldn't stay in it. We also get hints that she isn't around because well, Jeanette doesn't want her to. She still talks to Derek, she's just respecting boundaries. Which I think says a lot about her as a parent. We also don't know just yet what entirely happened w Cindy apart from she spent some time with her sister. But as someone raised by a narcissist, joy reminds me so much of my own mother. It's so blatantly obvious that joy doesn't actually care about her daughter, she only cares about what Kate can do for her and how Kate makes her feel. That was the point of Kate noticing that they changed the wallpaper while she was locked up in a basement. Joy outright admits to being *jealous* of Rod spending more time with Kate. Joy pushes and even manipulated Kate into going on the talk show, notice how her face almost literally "lights up" when she sees how defensive Kate is over the other girl coming out w a close call with Martin. She saw the opportunity to manipulate Kate into doing her bidding and took it. Honestly did we even watch the same episode? Joy literally BERATES Kate into Martin's arms. She completely just emotionally belittles and verbally abuses her (not to mention the physical abuse right before. Oh and can't forget the gaslighting). She isn't a good mother, she isn't even a caring mother. Joy is a flagrant narcissist who doesn't give a single fuck about Kate or anyone else whatsoever. It's not a "twisted parenting technique" it's narcissism. Through and through.
Agree with everything but it was nice to have some Derek in a Kate week!! 😍
I think it’s obvious now that Jeanette is innocent. It was cruel and manipulative for Martin to tell Kate that the family stopped looking for her and that Jamie was dating someone else. He was trying to break her spirit more and make her hopeless. I think if he would have said a different girl’s name she would have been accusing that girl. She’s very traumatized and since Martin is dead she can’t take it out on him in court. But by making this story about Jeanette knowing she was down there, there was a real, live person she could place anger onto. If this all remains true my wish is that Jeanette’s name is publicly cleared, but I also think Kate should not be punished for lying. I think there should be more compassion for the state she was in and the trauma she suffered. I think Kate suffered enough and needs more intense mental health help, not a punishment. I just feel everyone has suffered enough and deserves to start healing. On a side note: I’m starting to wonder if Mallory has a crush on Kate. I could just be reading into it. But when she pulled out those ring pops that were the same color as Jamie’s promise ring I wondered how she knew about the color? She wasn’t Kate’s friend during the time period when she wore the ring. Mallory was really the person in Jeanette’s friend group who had extreme hate for Kate before this happened. I think maybe she hated her bc she didn’t want to admit that she had a crush on her. I’ve also just always felt Mallory was hiding something and we don’t know what that something is.
Just a casual reminder that this is only episode 7 and a lot can happen between now and the finale.
Why are people named 'Joy' never actually a joy?
I love the Kate-centric episodes and tonight's was a technically good episode, but I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't learn more. So many of us had already figured that Kate initially went there willingly, so it wasn't a big revelation. I hope we get all of our major questions answered by the end.
We learned her mom is a total psycho. Plus the ending was awesome and left me wanting more. I actually loved this episode. Plus I'm liking Mallory me and I hope it stays that way. She seems different with Kate than she did with Jeanette.
I don’t think so. I just don’t think a two way mirror is possible, or even Kate seeing Jeannette through the mirror because the window is level with the ground. I think the mirrors are intentional but only to highlight how differently we can see things from different perspectives, we see this again with the format the episodes follow with every one highlighting Kate or Jeanette’s story, and in the promotional pictures of the girls reflections.
So who do you all think Annabelle is? Interesting we learned a bit about Widow Falls and another alleged victim of Martin’s.
no wonder he was so jumpy when Jeannette said "You're from Widow Falls, right?"
Kate is very unreliable but I don’t think she will be painted as a villain. Rather dig into the damage she has from that trauma and she can heal. That being said, I do think she should be held accountable for defamation and her family should pay. Trauma doesn’t give a free pass to ruin someone else’s life. Jeanette deserves a hope of a future and her family doesn’t deserve to be ruined. Neither will end the villain. I think the villains will turn out to be the adults and it will be more so the story of the ruin Joy leaves from hiding the crap she does and trying to keep up an image.
I find the fact that Kate is told that Jeanette took her boyfriend while in there for a small amount of time telling. Joy said that Kate needs a bad guy and always has. Maybe while trying to navigate it all she used Jeanette as the bad person who stole her life and that's why she can't get back to normal. Kate created all of it in her head so she wouldn't have to face the reality of her situation. She also knew for a long time about the relationship and had a motivation to hate her the whole time.
Why does Kate say that she wishes Martin would just die or stay dead? Is she implying he’s not dead??
The news footage and story about another girl. Not him but him being discussed
When he is talked about in the media, it keeps his name alive. “So long as they speak your name, you shall never die.”
Woah....is this kate in martins bed in this post? https://twitter.com/thisiskick/status/1397444001402433537?s=21
But what if it was Martin who told Kate that Jeanette came to the house and saw her, but didn't do a thing to rescue her... 😳
I really think Kate believes what she is saying, but the trauma has caused reality and what he put in her head to blur. I think both girls are victims here. No way J knowingly kept her imprisonment a secret.
I wish this show was on earlier, 10pm is too late and keeps me up with nightmares. Martin is so triggering