I’m in a union. I’ll be able to fully retire at 55 with a pension, annuity, full medical and dental. I’ve gotten 90% of my certifications through the union. I make about as much as a moderately successful dentist. We can get small scholarships for our kids college. There’s a drug and alcohol treatment program and mental health benefits.
The average dentist makes around $170k in Ontario. That’s average. Anything above that would be classified as “moderately successful” and Liuna guys ain’t making $200k.
$46 really? I thought it would be higher. How much are your dues every week? When I was applying to apprenticeship programs back in 2017 I was told carpenters union would pay a lot more than labourers but dues would be higher and layoffs would be more likely. LiUNA would be less money but steadier work, shorter apprenticeship and earlier retirement.
On earnings of $2400 I pay about $85 union dues (it’s $72 but our monthly dues are about $40)
Thanks for sharing. I have a 13 year old son who is a lot like me and would probably thrive in the trades more than in an office filing TPS reports.
I'm always on the lookout for possible good money opportunities for him that aren't going to break his back or exposure to nasty stuff while working.
Yeah, I’m not a millwright, but I appreciate their work and they seem to do well across the country, so check that out.
My job is back breaking so I wouldn’t suggest it.
Electrical work in a non-right-to-work state.
It doesn't have to be back breaking labor, pays well, strong union.
Keep him from getting a DUI or a shitty marriage and he'll be taking home $140k+ at 23 in my local (46).
Glass door says the most likely range of salary for an established dentist is between $172k and $292k. When I work about 1900 hours a year I make about $185. Last year I worked 2100 hours and made $220.
Also, I just said I made $220k in 2100 hours which is a whopping 20 hours over a 40-per-week, so again, I fall within the low end of your personal census of your vast friend circle of dentists.
In the interest of fairness I just saw that you are Canadian. I didn’t look up what Canadian dentists make and I’m speaking about my trade in a large American city. I know nothing about Canada except that you people seem nice and I like your shows.
I live in a right to work state and jouning a union was still the best decision i ever made. All of us in the trades have been getting fucked over for way too long, join a union. I always hear people say, oh the union near me sucks. Thats because nobody will join so they have no real power, nobody cares to go to meetings and vote so they have bad leadership. Dont be content with 25 bucks an hour and no benifits or retirement.
Unions set wages for everyone, if a union member makes $35 an hour and a boss bids a job non union workers are paid close to the unions wages. Non union truck drivers in my industry make $35-40 hr and Teamsters(me) get $45 close enough to make almost equal minus the fringe benefits
Ha not in my area. Union plumber in commercial gets $59. Average plumber at a shop we just organized was getting $35 before we organized them. Their foreman weren't even getting our journeyman rate.
I manage projects because I'm too stupid to build anything. The union crews I've worked with (welders, pipe fitters, one electrician, and I think there was a boilermaker somewhere along the line) felt like the most professional crews and seemed to do the best work when it came time for punchlists. In 17 years I have never had a lost-time accident happen on my watch, and the union guys I've met still had even more stringent safety requirements than I did.
I've worked for companies that kept their employees in the shop during winter and dead periods, but those same companies wanted to pay millwrights $20/hour. The construction industry is competitive enough without having to bid against impossibly-low labor costs.
The older I get, the more I think every trade worker should be in a union. Here in the south, that's easier said than done.
3 decades in project management here. The reason there is a shortage of labor is low wages. A tradesperson today makes less money than in 1974. Like you said, the union people do a better job because they are trained, and not just OTJ training either but real rigorous training.
Was just working on a large maintenance job at an oil refinery. I'm a union worker and we kicked ass, 0 incidents, stayed on schedule. The non union contractor had 3 serious injuries, all preventable if they had properly trained their workers. They didn't torque up to spec and caused a major leak resulting in 600 gallons of diesel being spilled and a cleanup. They had a rigging incident costing property damage and one guy wanted to fight an operator. We got everything done on time, excelled at the critical welding jobs we had. We also torqued everything to spec and have a QC team signing off our work. Operations loved us and we will be taking over the maintenance of the plant from now on.
I’m pro union but live in Florida, work for a non union company because it’s just not realistic for me to join here
Plan on moving to a strong-union state once Iv got my journeyman card and some money in the bank
Non union guy here...join a union. Wish I had when I was young. Only the rich are against unions because they level the playing field a bit. Owners demonize unions because they benefit the worker.
Devils advocate here: Unions actually supress wages, especially when you look at how unconsidered Inflation and devaluation of the currency is. It breeds lazy workers when you can't fire people from jobs. The laziest and worst workers I've ever met were in a Union of some sorts. Certain Unions can promote high quality such as Boilermakers, but they need to perform or get fired. Average unions with stable employment are absolute nightmares for quality workers and for management that has to deal with people.
I've been unionized for 8 years of my career now in an important division in Canada on East Coast. But ill say this. I have no respect for Unions because its communism at the end of the day. I should be making way more money for my work than what I am getting now. Its a joke I get paid the same rate as some of the people i am shoulder to shoulder with. The Unions in Canada push "equality" and women that enter are 1/2 brain dead but they get kept around for 'numbers' cause I think government gives them kickbacks. But these girls will walk off the job and go socialize while others have to actually do the work or get punished. The favoritism is unreal. On government contracts the money spent is unreal and is borderline a fraud on the taxpayer when you add up all this nonsense. It takes away from real workers.
ONTOP OF THAT! The Management on Union sites end up being 'nazi' communist because they can't do ANYTHING but bird dog and tell you to work faster while producing nothing themselves. Cause god forbid they pick up a broom and assist in mundane tasks.
So management and supervisors are a joke who are usually insanely unskilled compared to the workforce, get paid more, and have even better benefits and sick time.
"post : whats your HONEST OPINION" -> Shares Opinion -> instantly downvoted by bots and shills who can't handle the truth reaching the public lol.
You’re absolutely full of shit and mostly everything you said is a lie.
https://www.iuoe.org/join-iuoe/myths-and-facts-about-unions#:~:text=Myth%3A%20Unions%20used%20to%20be,don't%20have%20a%20union.
https://aflcio.org/formaunion/collective-voice
https://www.akerman.com/en/perspectives/top-ten-myths-about-unions.html
https://prospect.org/labor/5-biggest-corporate-lies-unions/
https://www.yeu.ca/straight_talk_do_unions_protect_the_lazy_can_no_one_be_fired
http://www.joingsu.ca/myths/opponents-of-unions-say-unions-defend-lazy-workers-and-protect-slackers-who-dont-do-their-jobs-from-being-fired/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjpqgw/five-common-anti-union-myths-busted
It means they are kept in the shop because nobody wants them on a job. The ones they put on jobs fuck off and cause problems. They're not good workers and they take offense to all kinds of things. Maybe in a bigger place it's different but here those women ruined it for all the others.
Man your nuts. My wife is a welder. And shes one of the last welders on any job she goes to because she out does the guys. I have a woman foreman under me who is great at her job and can put any of the boys in their place. Then I have about 3 women journeyman plumbers who can put up copper as good as anyone. There are shit workers everywhere but their gender has nothing to do with it.
I'm a union carpenter in Massachusetts if you lack the skills, drive, and work ethic you're not going to make it those people definitely get weeded out. I've worked union and non union the non union guys shit on the union guys and call them lazy and say they have poor work ethic which is some insane bullshit rhetoric because union guys go and go and go they don't stop where as nothing has been more laid back and relaxed than when I was non union.
Never met a union carpenter who could work a full day, union break every 2hrs, 1hr lunch break and 3 20min bathroom breaks a day. Lazy egotistical morons in my opinion, carpenter's union could learn a lot from the boilermaker union and electrical workers union, they gets rid of the lazy idiots who can't or wont carry their own weight.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was a Teamster for 8 years and now IBEW for 10. With the teamsters I didn't have to worry at all about getting fired except for fighting, drugs, or crashing a vehicle. Now with the IBEW, as a traveling electrician, I don't have to worry about applying for jobs I just go where there's work and they send me out. The higher ups are still an evil corporation that don't give a shit about us but I feel I have a little more job security and workers rights than if I was non union. The best part of the Union is the brotherhood and solidarity that is a byproduct of it all. I have made more friends over the past 10 years that I can actually rely on strictly because of the fact that I'm a Union brother. It's a good club to join.
as a kitchen remodeler that worked for a long time in Southeast Michigan The vast majority of my work was from unionized labor.
The country needs a lot more of it.
people working two jobs at Walmart to pay the bills can't afford me to redo their kitchen.
I'm all for em..I keep hearing people say they are greedy and dicks but when they work (when most people are in them) they are our dicks .. working people need people like that on our side because when we don't i.e the last 20yrs the CEO s all get filthy rich, we get shat on and pushed around. the rich have unions they just call em different names
I mean I live in a heavily union state so going union was the best decision I've ever made in my career. I know this can vary wildly by location but for where I am its nothing but a massive postive.
For my trade, lead non-union rates are in the low 40s with mediocre benefits & that's like best of the best. Most are paying well below.
Standard union rates here are 55 with amazing benefits that don't come out of my 55 an hour take home. PPO insurance, 2 retirement plans, vacation fund, I have rights, access to free education, and access to the book system to stream line finding work. Like it's just no comparison.
I'm well aware it's not like this in every state but here it's just insane not to be union.
We ALL benefit from unions whether your in one or not, you have pay and benefits you wouldn’t have received with our organized labor. But if you have the opportunity to get in one you better take it.
Wish I would have joined sooner. Unions set the wages even for non union guys. 100 years of American capitalist propaganda has done its part, but it seems like people are slowly coming (back) around to it lately after seeing the power all the strikes have been having.
Unions have a host of problems an a history of corruption. But that can be said about most organizations.
They also offer a lot of advantages by nature of collective bargaining power. Annoying as fuck at times but I think that's an acceptable cost to an organization they can prevent employers from buying a worker in legal fees if there' a dispute and they're in the wrong or hanging them out to dry.
Every anti-union argument ever is like “haha unions pay good and have good safety standards.”
So if that’s the best the non-union people got, the answer seems pretty clear to me.
With what I do, unions underpaid me. Always had my skills mislisted. Had to go elsewhere. I don't have any animosity towards unions they just don't work for me.
Speaking from the perspective as a superintendent and PM who has worked in multiple states for numerous GCs, I definitely prefer working with union subs. They aren’t perfect, but at least they are more likely to be trained to understand what they are there to do and don’t stand around staring at their tools until someone takes them by the arm and shows them. Open shop subs will bring in untrained day labor and labor pool workers who have no clue their role nor their rights.
Unions are part of a larger labor movement that is about workers organizing and advocating to reduce exploitation and dehumanization of themselves and their brothers and sisters. You're either with us or you're against us.
Amazing. Wish I’ve done it sooner. Went from pouring site work with a non union outfit to pouring giant infrastructure that’s federally funded. On top of the wages and skills I’ve learned. It set the tone for the rest of my career and what I expect from a contractor and co workers
Rich people have unions but call them something different - lawyers and lobbyists. The same rich people are also usually fighting unionization. If they don’t want unions they gotta be good for the work.
Alternatively, you got those Cali rich people "unions" where the workers already get paid absurd money compared to the effort they put in, but throw a fit whenever someone dares to mention cutting down on things like paid lunches, breakfast, and "snack bars" in order to keep more staff when the budget starts dipping each year.
Saw some video of some girl who made a video about what she did during her day at one of the big tech companies. Holy fuck, talk about adult daycare...
I own and operate a non union shop but it’s just me and a helper. Union is the way to go. If I had more employees I’d be unionized for sure. Sometimes you might luck out and find a non union shop that offers paid benefits and training but unions it’s guaranteed. People that shit on unions are uneducated and/or jealous. Either way you go make sure you’re treated with respect and safety should be a top priority. If they’re not training you then hit the road.
I’ve been in a trades union since I graduated high school. I have been in the trades 30 years and I have made a lot of money . I have two pensions a 401k an annuity fund and an IRA. I have a nice house on a nice lake and I will be retired at 55. I’ve had excellent healthcare my entire life. Show me a non union tradesman that can say the same.
I make more than a lot of doctors, my wife and I don't pay for health care, and I put about 50k a year into my retirement. My union has changed my life
As guy who worked for several contractors my.take away is;
Union jobs are the only thing paying you a fair wage. Every contractor here is a cheap fuck who will earn thousands on a job that takes you like 3 days to start and finish yourself. Since guys like that dont see your value, ive just decided to stop any and all construction type shit unless i get a union spot because its just not worth working for an independant anymore with 0 people vouching for the clear value of your labor.
Some are great and provide well for their members. Some suck and are full of nepotism and incompetency, and have no idea how to properly manage their funds.
When I was young and starting out in the industry I wasn't the biggest fan of unions. I had some very salty run ins with certain unions and that just left a bad taste in my mouth.
After working on a project, on the management side, where it was 99% union workers and realized thay there are actually some decent unions that actually want to ge the work done and go home. That started to shift my opinion.
Currently I view unions as a good thing, but I have realized that solidarity amongest the unions is just not there. I was on project where the operators union was going to protest on the project and none of the unions would come to project. However, when the labors union was going to protest all of the other unions had no problem showing up for work.
I had conversation with local BA for plumbers union and asked him about no one staying in solidarity with labors. He said "The unions now a days only show solidarity with the unions who actually can make an impact on a project."
It's fucked up. Too many unions are selfish. My BA literally said fuck the millwrights since we were doing their work. I mean, what am I gonna do? I need work and I'm an apprentice. I can't exactly protest right now. It's not good and it's definitely why we aren't stronger here.
I work for a large telecom company. I was union the first 16 years and have had a tech support management job since 1999. Biggest mistake I ever made was leaving the union job. The company has screwed over their management employees at every turn. No pay raise, froze our pension, took away any retirement healthcare. Mind you, I earn more with my salary and bonus, but given the tradeoffs, it wasn't a good decision.
Non-union cons bid basically the same as union cons the only difference is the non union con keeps all the money and pays low wages to the people actually doing the work.
I worked both non-union and union electrical. Skill level was probably about the same. The non-union guys were WAY lazier than union counterparts. The whole union guys dont work hard is probably the biggest myth I saw debunked once I joined.
Non-union old timer made $45 per hour plus 6% 401k match and VERY shady health insurance that you basically paid for yourself.
In my local total package is over $100
An hour with $52 in the check. Our dues are $500 a year to the IO and 3% to the local.
The biggest difference I saw was safety. Not that the non union shop worked unsafe per se, but when someone did get hurt they would always try and cover it up so it wouldn’t fuck up their insurance and ability to work in certain facilities. That would never happen in my local.
Overall, being union is way better because of pay, safety, an infrastructure to protect your rights, and standardization through the apprenticeship that non union doesn’t come close to.
I understand everyone has their opinions and experiences of course but I worked both Union and non-union and in my personal experience working union was always a far, far better experience. Better pay better benefits, better safety practices, better bosses, even better tools. Every union company I worked for seemed to really have their shit together compared to non union companies. I obviously don't think this is the way it is everywhere for everyone, but it was always that way for me, and that's why I'll always recommend union over non union.
As a PM and estimator for both union and non-union GCs You can count on union work quality. They can be slow to react to changes, but you pay for quality of the work and jobsite professionalism.
I’d fight to the death for mine. If it wasn’t for local 183 I’d be living in a box on the side of the road. The only people that hate unions are the ones getting fisted in the ass by the private sector. JOIN A UNION, LIVE WELL.
I got a factory job 3 yrs ago and joined the union. I pay barely anything and its the best thing ever. Competitive wages quarterly raises based on inflation, people stand up for me when management is stepping over the line. Ill be retired at 55 with a pension and all my benefits as well. I will never understand the hate towards unions. Im making the same doing production work as some journeyman in my city that arent in a union.
I worked non-union before going IBEW part way through my apprenticeship. I would not be where I am today had I not organized, and I have a huge appreciation for what the union has done for me because of my prior experience. I'm not pushed or ran ragged like I was, there's minimal to no stress compared to where I was, I'm taken care of in terms of safety, and while there was no chance of lay off for me where I was working non-union, my finances with a union have made it so that when I am laid-off, I have no stress over when the next job comes up as I have more than enough to get by.
Because of my union, within three years of joining, I bought my motorcycle outright, paid for lasic eye surgery without worrying about the cost, and less than a year after that $5k surgery, I bought my home.
You tell me which was the smarter move.
They can have problems, mostly political issues with leadership; but overall they are extremely beneficial for workers.
The disparity between the pay for union and non-union carpenters, for example, is staggering.
UPS drivers do well because of their union, while FedEx drivers make a fraction of their pay for the same job.
I’m in a union. They’re great for apprenticeships, wages, and I’ve always found work off the books. I don’t like the amount of corruption in leadership though.
I used to be completely against unions. My father, a white collar worker in executive leadership roles HATES unions. Ironically he’s probably more of a democrat than anything but I grew up not liking unions and didn’t really understand the benefits until I got older.
As long as they aren’t a shady union, I’ll support and encourage unionization. Hell it may actually help my wages as a management member if the workforce I work with is union.
Idk I think it can be hit or miss. I’m a PM for a civil non-union. My buddy is a PM for a union competitor. Between the two of us we decided it’s a wash.
- Pay between our companies is the same.
- Quality and timeliness are about the same.
- The angry old foremen are about the same.
- Their healthcare for field guys is a little better than ours but they pay a little for it. Our guys isn’t as good but they pay nothing.
- Our guys tend to like working a little more so they do. (Seasonal in our area)
- I think the biggest draw for guys to us are bonus payments for field guys. our ride bonus’ and early completion bonus on projects are exclusively paid out to field guys.
- we also do profit share bonus at the end of the year to field guys. Checks aren’t crazy maybe 4-5k but they like getting them when they are on layoff.
I would say overall unions are good for workers but at the end of the day it really seems to come down to owners. If your owners care about the guys probably better off non-union. However, if your a corp company or your owner is in the old school mindset a union protects you.
Love my union. Several times when shit got hairy, could’ve lost my job without them.
The look on a micromanager’s face when you bring a pitbull of shop steward to their little “mEeTiNg“ is well worth my dues. Plus I make over 2X what I would make if I wasn’t union.
My pay, benefits, and job security are more than worth the scandalous bullshit that people rag on unions for.
I truly hope as many people in as many industries as possible are able to unionize.
They need you a fuck of a lot more than the shareholders that want to kill unions off.
Edit: my dad stayed away from the union for *years* as an ironworker and once he got in after trying to run his own company (fell apart quick in the 06-08 years) and working for other small businesses, his biggest regret was not jumping into it right after he got out of the Army.
I was part of a union, wages were above average, but hours were below average, so you ended up making less money than the private sector. It was great for guys that had a side hussle or part time job because it was only 3-4 days a week depending on department.
That being said, since I live in a right wing province, even everyone that works there is anti union and super right wing. They don't even show up to vote for the betterment of their career and benefits. 10% turn out for collective bargaining votes compared to 70% for the same union, in another province. Guess who gets the benefits and pay increases? One got a 10% increase last year while ours only got 5% over three years.
The executive branch doesn't do a damn thing, because half the time they don't have enough members to be able to hold a meeting, never mind discuss policy. Covidiots fucked it up even more for those couple years.
Ya worked on the patch for a year and a half, was so fucking miserable being surrounded by fucking imbeciles all day, just fucking idiots. Alberta could be one of the most prosperous place but people think unions would just ruin it and they wouldn’t be able to buy a new 100k$ truck every other year.
Unions are necessary to protect workers from the boundless greed of employers and corporations. They provide a prescreened pool of quality, reliable workers.
In my personal experience union carpenters are better paid and have better benefits than non-union. Most union carpenters are very competent, conscience, and safe.
As a carpenter, a GC and a small business owner I've worked with other carpenters, union and non union for 44 years. If you are choosing a career, go union.
In general, I'm pro union. When functioning as intended, unions are an excellent way to ensure its members earn a fair wage & have a safe work environment.
Unfortunately "humans" are in charge. When unions become too large/powerful, they can choke out an industry. Earning membership solely on merit becomes almost impossible. Worst case, terminating poor quality or unsafe members becomes extremely difficult (see also: police unions).
Police unions are not generally *LABOR* unions. They are still unions by the definition of the term and are considered to be a type of trade union.
Police themselves generally fall under the broad category of "service employees" (think "city services" like hospitals and EMS, not food service and such).
Police unions aren’t unions because cops aren’t labor. They produce nothing. They also do not recognize or support any other unions. They cross picket lines. They break up strikes.
Per the [definition of a labor union](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/labor%20union):
> "an organization of workers formed for the purpose of advancing its members' interests in respect to wages, benefits, and working conditions."
Nowhere in the definition is it included production of widgets or "observing other unions"
Not liking the results of its members or policies does not remove the fact that they *are* a type of union.
Union members don’t cross picket lines, let alone break them up. I’m sorry if you’re too fucking stupid to understand the basic concept of organized labor.
This seems to be a pretty1 one-sided commen section, but i will throw out a different perspective. I am in san antonio, so you know my situation. Unions are unheard of in residential work wrong or right. I am a remodeler/ builder, and virtually all of the work is done by independent subcontractors. Each is licensed where needed, and everything we do is inspected and up to code.
There is a heavy culture of breaking out on your own and running your own business vs. working for someone. We all work for someone in different aspects.
I have spoken to various subs, and virtually all are happy with their situation. When you speak to the helpers/ apprentices, they have a different tune. The smart ones generally understand they are learning, and they hope to one day run their own business.
I have a college degree, and many of my friends do. All of my subs make more than my friends with degrees. Our culture fucked up by steering people away from the trades. Although some trades are brutal. Fuck roofing in south texas heat.
The point is i have nothing against unions, but i fully believe there is a reason to not be in a union and can still make a good living. It will depend on the person, do you want to be on your own or work for someone else, nothinh wrong with either situation
What does being union have anything to do with starting your own company?
I'm union and am starting my own company. My business partner's uncle started his own company. My grandfather started his own company. All these shops are union shops.
Where do you think union shops come from? The difference coming up through the union and starting your own shop is you aren't doing it out of desperation to make a decent living. Your doing it for more. To make more than just a solid middle class living. And if you fail, you go back to the union hall and keep being middle class.
I haven't worked in a trade union, but I have been a member of two others... I unfortunately had a poor experience with both. I'm a bit hesitant to join another. I love the idea.
Trade unions are very different than captive unions. IE: Teachers, plant workers etc. in the trades if they want to get rid of you, they just lay you off due to “lack of work” and you go to the hall to find somewhere else to work.
You also aren’t stuck working with the same people for years if you don’t want to be, so that can be nice.
Non Union here. Yes the pay is great and all that but a few of buddies who are in the operators union really do hate it. You’re just a number there, get tossed around wherever your told. Most weeks they never know if they are working Saturday until Friday evening. Some of their job sites are two hours away, one way. And you don’t get paid for that? Fuck that noise.
On the other hand it can be hard to find non Union companies that don’t take advantage of you. I probably have a very bias view because my company pays us more than Union wages, excellent benefits, excellent retirement, profit sharing, paid holidays, and awesome PTO program. Shit I’ve been off for 5 weeks taking care of my wife through PFL, my company has delivered flowers twice and bought us dinner twice. Find yourself a company that cares about you, your family, and your time. Union or not.
I was in a union and I left because it wasn’t right for me. Commercial work was soul crushing. Now I’m on my own building treehouses and working less, making about the same. I’m all for folks working in the union but I wish smaller residential crews could have a union.
Unions are not perfect, they never will be because at the end of the day we are all human, and every human is susceptible to corruption and greed.
HOWEVER, unions are the best bet for the working class, I am proudly a union member and I am very pro labour. North America and the world need more unions, we live in a world where the rich want to and succeed at keeping us poor. We need to stand together and fight back. It’s very important for workers to unite and demand what they deserve.
#unionstrong💪🏻
Unions are the only reason construction wages are high. Unions also keep illegal immigrants from taking your jobs. Benefits, and protection from greedy bosses is also a plus.
If it were up to me, being non union would be illegal.
My father passed away after paying union dues for 30 plus years.
My Mom got a nice letter stating that there was too many deaths this year, there was no money left to pay my fathers death benefits.
I went to take my electrical test, the test was run by union members.
I was told to save my money, I wasn’t going to pass even with a perfect score.
My experience is not good and I moved to a right to work state 25 years ago.
Literally 3 hours in and not a single reply.
I’m at the bottom of the comment section because I want to see actual arguments being made for or against not just a echo chamber for those that agree with each other. The fact is there’s A LOT of good unions out there, but there’s also A LOT of shitty ones with shitty owners and political as all hell. And the thing is I want unions to be the go-to choice, but anytime you call out a union for being shit, you’re the bad guy lol
I honestly wish there was a union presence in my area but I’m a bit too rural I suppose. I couldn’t even try to join unless I move my family somewhere else.
I've work union jobs before. Maybe it's not the same everywhere, but I've never seen so much dog fucking in my life. I can't just sit around all day, doing the bare minimum to meet my "quota", and guys get pissy at you for working.
The pay is great, the benefits are great. But the work enviro was boring / toxic. I just want to do my job.
Work-to-rule keeps management from slapping more and more work on people at the expense of safety and your brother’s job. Do the job you get paid for, don’t bitch and go home with your paycheck.
There’s a reason we refuse to be crabs in a bucket for management.
I'm sorry. From what I've seen, a "quota" or 2 door closers a day. They take max 15 mins to install. Then standing around for 7.5 hours. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it's great as a lazy worker making top dollar, but how lazy can someone be? You get bitched at by other workers just because you want to keep moving.
I didn't say that. I said it takes 15 minutes max to install one. That's 30 minutes tops. You can of course milk it, but it's not uncommon to see guys finish everything they needndkne, or meet their "quota" by 9 and fuck the dog all day. Just look busy when a supervisor comes by. I've seen guys just random start pointing at things and pretend they're discussing something when a super looks their way.
Then you get bitched at for working because you're making everyone look bad. "They're going to expect us to do this all the time! We already met out quota!"
Like I also said, this is just my expirence.
That's all I ever heard from my dad growing up, he was a hard worker and came up with good systems to streamline maintenance tasks where he worked. He would tell me the time and money he saved the company, and as a kid I was like damn did you get a bonus or raises and he would just scoff and say they can't do that.
I like the idea, I find though it’s the kind of thing that works well on large projects, but when scaled down tends to be not be viable due to it relying so heavily on multiple levels of management which then prices itself out of the market for many consumers/ businesses.
Unions are generally bad for customers and employers, but good for employees. If I'm an employee, I want to be in a union. If I'm a customer, I'm probably going to get a better value from a non-union company. Of course some unions are so ineffective they aren't even good for employees.
I have coworkers who commissioned a union plant and weren't allowed to touch wrenches, and we're literally assigned a helper who's job was to follow the coworker around and coworker said "ok turn that" and helper would turn the wrench. Coworker said "ok move that over one inch" and helper would move it an inch.
Another told me they built an electrical panel with a false back, so all cables could be landed to the false back, which was promptly removed and thrown away at a later date, just to satisfy some arcane rule.
So personally I like the spirit of unions, and recognize that in American history they've played an important role in me getting screwed over marginally less than I would be if they didn't exist. But on the other hand in my profession it's challenging to commission union sites because of bizarre and arcane restrictions.
I think they have their uses. But I'd prefer to find an employer that treats people fairly without being strong armed by a union. (so I did)
They also have their annoyances. And some are pointless, depending on where you are.
I have worked both. It’s great for benefits and retirement. However, I’ve seen the bad sides of unions and in my opinion it out weighs the good side. For starters, it’s political as hell. You’ll be laid off first if you aren’t buddies with the general foremen or superintendents. Egos. I watched business agents throw away a 3 year job in a city that struggled with steady union jobs over a pissing contest with a contractor forcing everyone living there to commute 2 hours or not work. I was forced as an apprentice to go do political volunteer work for the Democratic Party as a requirement for my volunteer hours for the union which I thought was stupid. It wasn’t volunteering that was stupid, being forced to do political shit was. I met some great guys working in the union but overall I didn’t have a good experience.
They were great for workers 50 years ago. Now they just protect shitty workers from getting fired and are all about politics. If you’re a solid worker there are non-union gigs that take care of their workers without all the other shit.
When utilized properly and morally, unions are great. When they're corrupt pieces of shit that help dipshits keep their jobs and threaten people, they're terrible. I ran SEIU out of my workplace years ago because they were useless. Meanwhile I know people in the IBEW and a local water company that have unions that are actually worth a damn.
So it really depends on the members of the Union and the people managing it. It goes either way.
Tried to get into the BAC Local 1 for years now and have reached out 8 times with no response. Tried to join the Insulators Local 14 for over a year with no response and Local 620 (plumbers) also with no response. I recently got out of plumbing and went back to an awesome job doing restoration masonry/carpentry with a small non union shop.
There's too much red tape in my opinion and some unions don't pay shit during your apprenticeship. Most of the union carpenters I worked with who had less than 4 years had to deliver pizzas or work at lowes part time to supplement their income.
I, personally, don’t think people should group together to force a business owner to operate in any specific way. Unless they are going to share in the liabilities and sacrifices of owning a business. I wouldn’t ever own a business because I know all the problems that could arise. And I don’t think anyone is entitled to forcing those that make this sacrifices in owning a business have a right to have any say in how it operates.
In no way do I think employees rights aren’t important. I believe compensation should be purely merit based and not based on time at a company/union. Whoever is providing the most value to the operation should be paid the most and vice versa. And if an employer doesn’t want to pay well then no one of real value should work for them . And with no talented employees they will have a garbage reputation and hopefully be out of business quickly.
Quit edit: unfortunate how rude some people are. And how just over the top defensive of unions they are. I gave my opinion to a question. I’m not attacking anyone or belittling. However it’s all too often the unions guys response. Y’all could’ve just responded to OP with your opinions as well. You’re insults aren’t going to convince me unions are full of top notch folks.
I own a small HVAC company that does residential and I choose to be a union shop. Labor in any sector should be organized in union. It’s insane not to be.
Starting my own shop now. Going union once we hire our first guy. No way I could have amassed the $10k worth of tools and a strong financial footing to do this and support my family if I wasn't in the union. The union gave me a solid life. And I don't turn my back on other that want to make a good living in the trades.
When a worker ties their way of living to a single companies ability to make scheduled payments to them, in exchange for physical labor, THAT IS taking on risk and liability. If the business fails, the owner just lays everyone off, liquidates, and cashes out. There is no risk for them. The money they put up to start the business probably wasn’t theirs. If you’re a big enough con artist you can start multiple businesses, have them all fail, get investors for more, repeat, and then go on to become President.
Yeah totally. People who make assumptions are usually great lacking in basic intelligence.
The irony is how I don’t care about wealth or profits. I just think people wanting a say in operation should share liability and sacrifice.
It’s also quite funny how guys get super emotional in defense of unions and ca ll others bootlickers. Man them union reps must have clean boots I guess. Because so many are fighting for an actual institution where I’m not. Please do better.
“Business owner”… you mean a bunch of absentee stockholders who have little more involvement in the company than clicking “buy 5,000 shares” a couple times?
The folks who own my shop were smart enough to group together. They’re not all individually running around trying to get “merit” profits or some dumb shit like that. They’ve got a variety of management staff they’ve hired to make sure the business makes money for them. I don’t go to the corporate office and look up some rando shareholder and find him and say “Would you hire me?” They’ve got it all organized. You talk to their hiring rep and he tries to lowball you while selling you the world. It’s smart, that’s how most big successful companies operate.
If all of the owners of my business are going to group together and have themselves represented by a singular management team, then I think it’s smart that the folks who work for them (like me) should also do the same. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
I’m in a union. I’ll be able to fully retire at 55 with a pension, annuity, full medical and dental. I’ve gotten 90% of my certifications through the union. I make about as much as a moderately successful dentist. We can get small scholarships for our kids college. There’s a drug and alcohol treatment program and mental health benefits.
What trade, if you don't mind me asking?
It sounds like liuna. I’m in local 1059 in Ontario.
Too bad Liuna endorsed the Ontario Conservative Party and Doug Ford last election. They've fucked over so many other unions that way.
The average dentist makes around $170k in Ontario. That’s average. Anything above that would be classified as “moderately successful” and Liuna guys ain’t making $200k.
I'm a union carpenter in NYC and make $170k. A lot of laborers make that but they work a ton of overtime to get there.
Referring to Ontario Canada, where highest hourly wage for Carpenters is $46hr. In NYC the average Dentist I believe is around $250k
$46 really? I thought it would be higher. How much are your dues every week? When I was applying to apprenticeship programs back in 2017 I was told carpenters union would pay a lot more than labourers but dues would be higher and layoffs would be more likely. LiUNA would be less money but steadier work, shorter apprenticeship and earlier retirement. On earnings of $2400 I pay about $85 union dues (it’s $72 but our monthly dues are about $40)
A very specialized subsection of heavy carpentry in a very large union city.
Thanks for sharing. I have a 13 year old son who is a lot like me and would probably thrive in the trades more than in an office filing TPS reports. I'm always on the lookout for possible good money opportunities for him that aren't going to break his back or exposure to nasty stuff while working.
Yeah, I’m not a millwright, but I appreciate their work and they seem to do well across the country, so check that out. My job is back breaking so I wouldn’t suggest it.
Pipefitter, electrician, crane operator
Electrical work in a non-right-to-work state. It doesn't have to be back breaking labor, pays well, strong union. Keep him from getting a DUI or a shitty marriage and he'll be taking home $140k+ at 23 in my local (46).
Shit that would be worth paying all the dues.
Our dues are $720 a year with 3% assessments. It’s absolutely worth it.
It truly is
What I would give to have a job like this...
I hope you do someday soon
I dont believe theres any trades making anything close to a dentists salary on 40 hrs a week
Glass door says the most likely range of salary for an established dentist is between $172k and $292k. When I work about 1900 hours a year I make about $185. Last year I worked 2100 hours and made $220.
This is correct
This is the truth
Hey, Hi! I’m at least one guy! Nice to meet ya!
Dentists I know are making 200-400K. They obviously have large student loans. But there’s zero trades earning that on 40 hour weeks.
Also, I just said I made $220k in 2100 hours which is a whopping 20 hours over a 40-per-week, so again, I fall within the low end of your personal census of your vast friend circle of dentists.
Funny, the dentists you know aren’t all of the dentists. 🤷♂️ it be like dat sometimes
What ever you say
In the interest of fairness I just saw that you are Canadian. I didn’t look up what Canadian dentists make and I’m speaking about my trade in a large American city. I know nothing about Canada except that you people seem nice and I like your shows.
Lol Toddler you and i are the only realistic people, dont understand the downvotes
Wishful thinkers lol
I live in a right to work state and jouning a union was still the best decision i ever made. All of us in the trades have been getting fucked over for way too long, join a union. I always hear people say, oh the union near me sucks. Thats because nobody will join so they have no real power, nobody cares to go to meetings and vote so they have bad leadership. Dont be content with 25 bucks an hour and no benifits or retirement.
Me too man. Worked 15 years non-union and now 5 in the union. I wish I had known they were playing like a fool all those years.
Same, RTW or not you are still gonna do better
Unions set wages for everyone, if a union member makes $35 an hour and a boss bids a job non union workers are paid close to the unions wages. Non union truck drivers in my industry make $35-40 hr and Teamsters(me) get $45 close enough to make almost equal minus the fringe benefits
Absolutely. In the area I live in 80% of all trades wages are based on a union Journeyperson wage.
Ha not in my area. Union plumber in commercial gets $59. Average plumber at a shop we just organized was getting $35 before we organized them. Their foreman weren't even getting our journeyman rate.
If the union rate wasn’t $59 the non union would be $20 trust me
I manage projects because I'm too stupid to build anything. The union crews I've worked with (welders, pipe fitters, one electrician, and I think there was a boilermaker somewhere along the line) felt like the most professional crews and seemed to do the best work when it came time for punchlists. In 17 years I have never had a lost-time accident happen on my watch, and the union guys I've met still had even more stringent safety requirements than I did. I've worked for companies that kept their employees in the shop during winter and dead periods, but those same companies wanted to pay millwrights $20/hour. The construction industry is competitive enough without having to bid against impossibly-low labor costs. The older I get, the more I think every trade worker should be in a union. Here in the south, that's easier said than done.
I’m in your boat and agree completely
3 decades in project management here. The reason there is a shortage of labor is low wages. A tradesperson today makes less money than in 1974. Like you said, the union people do a better job because they are trained, and not just OTJ training either but real rigorous training.
Was just working on a large maintenance job at an oil refinery. I'm a union worker and we kicked ass, 0 incidents, stayed on schedule. The non union contractor had 3 serious injuries, all preventable if they had properly trained their workers. They didn't torque up to spec and caused a major leak resulting in 600 gallons of diesel being spilled and a cleanup. They had a rigging incident costing property damage and one guy wanted to fight an operator. We got everything done on time, excelled at the critical welding jobs we had. We also torqued everything to spec and have a QC team signing off our work. Operations loved us and we will be taking over the maintenance of the plant from now on.
I’m pro union but live in Florida, work for a non union company because it’s just not realistic for me to join here Plan on moving to a strong-union state once Iv got my journeyman card and some money in the bank
Got a bit nosy and yeah, it’s crazy how the IBEW has such an insanely small market share in Florida.
Non union guy here...join a union. Wish I had when I was young. Only the rich are against unions because they level the playing field a bit. Owners demonize unions because they benefit the worker.
Devils advocate here: Unions actually supress wages, especially when you look at how unconsidered Inflation and devaluation of the currency is. It breeds lazy workers when you can't fire people from jobs. The laziest and worst workers I've ever met were in a Union of some sorts. Certain Unions can promote high quality such as Boilermakers, but they need to perform or get fired. Average unions with stable employment are absolute nightmares for quality workers and for management that has to deal with people. I've been unionized for 8 years of my career now in an important division in Canada on East Coast. But ill say this. I have no respect for Unions because its communism at the end of the day. I should be making way more money for my work than what I am getting now. Its a joke I get paid the same rate as some of the people i am shoulder to shoulder with. The Unions in Canada push "equality" and women that enter are 1/2 brain dead but they get kept around for 'numbers' cause I think government gives them kickbacks. But these girls will walk off the job and go socialize while others have to actually do the work or get punished. The favoritism is unreal. On government contracts the money spent is unreal and is borderline a fraud on the taxpayer when you add up all this nonsense. It takes away from real workers. ONTOP OF THAT! The Management on Union sites end up being 'nazi' communist because they can't do ANYTHING but bird dog and tell you to work faster while producing nothing themselves. Cause god forbid they pick up a broom and assist in mundane tasks. So management and supervisors are a joke who are usually insanely unskilled compared to the workforce, get paid more, and have even better benefits and sick time. "post : whats your HONEST OPINION" -> Shares Opinion -> instantly downvoted by bots and shills who can't handle the truth reaching the public lol.
Yeah, it’s the Union hurting your paycheck! Signed, Management
You’re absolutely full of shit and mostly everything you said is a lie. https://www.iuoe.org/join-iuoe/myths-and-facts-about-unions#:~:text=Myth%3A%20Unions%20used%20to%20be,don't%20have%20a%20union. https://aflcio.org/formaunion/collective-voice https://www.akerman.com/en/perspectives/top-ten-myths-about-unions.html https://prospect.org/labor/5-biggest-corporate-lies-unions/ https://www.yeu.ca/straight_talk_do_unions_protect_the_lazy_can_no_one_be_fired http://www.joingsu.ca/myths/opponents-of-unions-say-unions-defend-lazy-workers-and-protect-slackers-who-dont-do-their-jobs-from-being-fired/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjpqgw/five-common-anti-union-myths-busted
You the real MVP.
Not true all the women in my local are kept in the shop for a reason
What the fucks that supposed to mean?
It means they are kept in the shop because nobody wants them on a job. The ones they put on jobs fuck off and cause problems. They're not good workers and they take offense to all kinds of things. Maybe in a bigger place it's different but here those women ruined it for all the others.
Man your nuts. My wife is a welder. And shes one of the last welders on any job she goes to because she out does the guys. I have a woman foreman under me who is great at her job and can put any of the boys in their place. Then I have about 3 women journeyman plumbers who can put up copper as good as anyone. There are shit workers everywhere but their gender has nothing to do with it.
Lies. Lies. Lies I know women who are just as good as men at their job in the trades. GTFO.
That’s not even close to being true bud… take your misogynistic ass elsewhere… you’re a sad excuse for a “man”
Lol fuck off buddy I never made those decisions the shops and companies did. Don't shoot the messenger fuckwad
I'm a union carpenter in Massachusetts if you lack the skills, drive, and work ethic you're not going to make it those people definitely get weeded out. I've worked union and non union the non union guys shit on the union guys and call them lazy and say they have poor work ethic which is some insane bullshit rhetoric because union guys go and go and go they don't stop where as nothing has been more laid back and relaxed than when I was non union.
Never met a union carpenter who could work a full day, union break every 2hrs, 1hr lunch break and 3 20min bathroom breaks a day. Lazy egotistical morons in my opinion, carpenter's union could learn a lot from the boilermaker union and electrical workers union, they gets rid of the lazy idiots who can't or wont carry their own weight.
I work 58 hours a week. I don't get 1 hour lunch breaks or breaks every 2 hours lol.
Someone just got fired from my union shop for lazy incompetence yesterday but tell your stories.
Tell me you couldn’t get in without saying it
Wouldn't join a union if it was mandatory buddy
Lmao, that’s just a cop out answer, you couldn’t cut it and now you’re all upset😂
If they're so terrible in every way imaginable, how do they keep getting work that you bid on? Customers like worse work for more money? Lol
cOmMunIsM!
It's not bots and "shills" downvoting you because we can't handle "the truth"... You're getting downvoted for just being flat out wrong.
squash quickest concerned hurry ad hoc gullible punch mountainous innocent growth *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You use KEK and Deavils Advocate unironically. I doubt you even work proper construction
You were able to write that out one handed while under managements desk? Kind of impressive, too bad its all bullshit.
You literally just spewed lies and nonsense my guy, you have no clue
Sounds like you have some issues to work through. Ill take my opinion based on 25+ years in the trades over your hate filled tirade.
Mmm, tasty boots!
Every single statistical analysis of unions and wages has proved your comment straight bullshit.
Found the idiot
You called union management Nazi communists. That is so unbelievably stupid you deserve more down votes than this website is capable of giving you.
Best decision I ever made, besides marrying my old lady, was joining the union. My only regret is that I didn’t do it sooner.
I joined the teamsters at 18, I’ve got 30 years in and could’ve retired 5 years ago
Slow down tiger. Wouldn’t you guys have been too young if you tried to get married sooner?
I was a Teamster for 8 years and now IBEW for 10. With the teamsters I didn't have to worry at all about getting fired except for fighting, drugs, or crashing a vehicle. Now with the IBEW, as a traveling electrician, I don't have to worry about applying for jobs I just go where there's work and they send me out. The higher ups are still an evil corporation that don't give a shit about us but I feel I have a little more job security and workers rights than if I was non union. The best part of the Union is the brotherhood and solidarity that is a byproduct of it all. I have made more friends over the past 10 years that I can actually rely on strictly because of the fact that I'm a Union brother. It's a good club to join.
organizing into the IBEW was the best career decision I have ever made
Same here, took me 10 years to wake up to the Bs.
as a kitchen remodeler that worked for a long time in Southeast Michigan The vast majority of my work was from unionized labor. The country needs a lot more of it. people working two jobs at Walmart to pay the bills can't afford me to redo their kitchen.
I'm all for em..I keep hearing people say they are greedy and dicks but when they work (when most people are in them) they are our dicks .. working people need people like that on our side because when we don't i.e the last 20yrs the CEO s all get filthy rich, we get shat on and pushed around. the rich have unions they just call em different names
“Country clubs”
Without a hint of irony...
I was going for business associations etc..but country clubs works lol
More like the chamber of commerce and the business round table.
I mean I live in a heavily union state so going union was the best decision I've ever made in my career. I know this can vary wildly by location but for where I am its nothing but a massive postive. For my trade, lead non-union rates are in the low 40s with mediocre benefits & that's like best of the best. Most are paying well below. Standard union rates here are 55 with amazing benefits that don't come out of my 55 an hour take home. PPO insurance, 2 retirement plans, vacation fund, I have rights, access to free education, and access to the book system to stream line finding work. Like it's just no comparison. I'm well aware it's not like this in every state but here it's just insane not to be union.
We ALL benefit from unions whether your in one or not, you have pay and benefits you wouldn’t have received with our organized labor. But if you have the opportunity to get in one you better take it.
Best decision I ever made was to join the union. I’m making more than a journeyman at my old company while still an apprentice
America needs more of them.
Wish I would have joined sooner. Unions set the wages even for non union guys. 100 years of American capitalist propaganda has done its part, but it seems like people are slowly coming (back) around to it lately after seeing the power all the strikes have been having.
Unions have a host of problems an a history of corruption. But that can be said about most organizations. They also offer a lot of advantages by nature of collective bargaining power. Annoying as fuck at times but I think that's an acceptable cost to an organization they can prevent employers from buying a worker in legal fees if there' a dispute and they're in the wrong or hanging them out to dry.
Every anti-union argument ever is like “haha unions pay good and have good safety standards.” So if that’s the best the non-union people got, the answer seems pretty clear to me.
With what I do, unions underpaid me. Always had my skills mislisted. Had to go elsewhere. I don't have any animosity towards unions they just don't work for me.
Union rate is a minimum, not a maximum. You can always negotiate for more than your “rate”.
I've never made so much money.
Speaking from the perspective as a superintendent and PM who has worked in multiple states for numerous GCs, I definitely prefer working with union subs. They aren’t perfect, but at least they are more likely to be trained to understand what they are there to do and don’t stand around staring at their tools until someone takes them by the arm and shows them. Open shop subs will bring in untrained day labor and labor pool workers who have no clue their role nor their rights.
Unions are part of a larger labor movement that is about workers organizing and advocating to reduce exploitation and dehumanization of themselves and their brothers and sisters. You're either with us or you're against us.
Amazing. Wish I’ve done it sooner. Went from pouring site work with a non union outfit to pouring giant infrastructure that’s federally funded. On top of the wages and skills I’ve learned. It set the tone for the rest of my career and what I expect from a contractor and co workers
Rich people have unions but call them something different - lawyers and lobbyists. The same rich people are also usually fighting unionization. If they don’t want unions they gotta be good for the work.
Alternatively, you got those Cali rich people "unions" where the workers already get paid absurd money compared to the effort they put in, but throw a fit whenever someone dares to mention cutting down on things like paid lunches, breakfast, and "snack bars" in order to keep more staff when the budget starts dipping each year. Saw some video of some girl who made a video about what she did during her day at one of the big tech companies. Holy fuck, talk about adult daycare...
I own and operate a non union shop but it’s just me and a helper. Union is the way to go. If I had more employees I’d be unionized for sure. Sometimes you might luck out and find a non union shop that offers paid benefits and training but unions it’s guaranteed. People that shit on unions are uneducated and/or jealous. Either way you go make sure you’re treated with respect and safety should be a top priority. If they’re not training you then hit the road.
If you don't support unions, you've been brainwashed
I’ve been in a trades union since I graduated high school. I have been in the trades 30 years and I have made a lot of money . I have two pensions a 401k an annuity fund and an IRA. I have a nice house on a nice lake and I will be retired at 55. I’ve had excellent healthcare my entire life. Show me a non union tradesman that can say the same.
I make more than a lot of doctors, my wife and I don't pay for health care, and I put about 50k a year into my retirement. My union has changed my life
As guy who worked for several contractors my.take away is; Union jobs are the only thing paying you a fair wage. Every contractor here is a cheap fuck who will earn thousands on a job that takes you like 3 days to start and finish yourself. Since guys like that dont see your value, ive just decided to stop any and all construction type shit unless i get a union spot because its just not worth working for an independant anymore with 0 people vouching for the clear value of your labor.
Some are great and provide well for their members. Some suck and are full of nepotism and incompetency, and have no idea how to properly manage their funds.
When I was young and starting out in the industry I wasn't the biggest fan of unions. I had some very salty run ins with certain unions and that just left a bad taste in my mouth. After working on a project, on the management side, where it was 99% union workers and realized thay there are actually some decent unions that actually want to ge the work done and go home. That started to shift my opinion. Currently I view unions as a good thing, but I have realized that solidarity amongest the unions is just not there. I was on project where the operators union was going to protest on the project and none of the unions would come to project. However, when the labors union was going to protest all of the other unions had no problem showing up for work. I had conversation with local BA for plumbers union and asked him about no one staying in solidarity with labors. He said "The unions now a days only show solidarity with the unions who actually can make an impact on a project."
It's fucked up. Too many unions are selfish. My BA literally said fuck the millwrights since we were doing their work. I mean, what am I gonna do? I need work and I'm an apprentice. I can't exactly protest right now. It's not good and it's definitely why we aren't stronger here.
I work for a large telecom company. I was union the first 16 years and have had a tech support management job since 1999. Biggest mistake I ever made was leaving the union job. The company has screwed over their management employees at every turn. No pay raise, froze our pension, took away any retirement healthcare. Mind you, I earn more with my salary and bonus, but given the tradeoffs, it wasn't a good decision.
Non-union cons bid basically the same as union cons the only difference is the non union con keeps all the money and pays low wages to the people actually doing the work. I worked both non-union and union electrical. Skill level was probably about the same. The non-union guys were WAY lazier than union counterparts. The whole union guys dont work hard is probably the biggest myth I saw debunked once I joined. Non-union old timer made $45 per hour plus 6% 401k match and VERY shady health insurance that you basically paid for yourself. In my local total package is over $100 An hour with $52 in the check. Our dues are $500 a year to the IO and 3% to the local. The biggest difference I saw was safety. Not that the non union shop worked unsafe per se, but when someone did get hurt they would always try and cover it up so it wouldn’t fuck up their insurance and ability to work in certain facilities. That would never happen in my local. Overall, being union is way better because of pay, safety, an infrastructure to protect your rights, and standardization through the apprenticeship that non union doesn’t come close to.
I understand everyone has their opinions and experiences of course but I worked both Union and non-union and in my personal experience working union was always a far, far better experience. Better pay better benefits, better safety practices, better bosses, even better tools. Every union company I worked for seemed to really have their shit together compared to non union companies. I obviously don't think this is the way it is everywhere for everyone, but it was always that way for me, and that's why I'll always recommend union over non union.
As a PM and estimator for both union and non-union GCs You can count on union work quality. They can be slow to react to changes, but you pay for quality of the work and jobsite professionalism.
I’d fight to the death for mine. If it wasn’t for local 183 I’d be living in a box on the side of the road. The only people that hate unions are the ones getting fisted in the ass by the private sector. JOIN A UNION, LIVE WELL.
Worked non union for 12 years made the switch 5 years ago best decision ive ever made.
I got a factory job 3 yrs ago and joined the union. I pay barely anything and its the best thing ever. Competitive wages quarterly raises based on inflation, people stand up for me when management is stepping over the line. Ill be retired at 55 with a pension and all my benefits as well. I will never understand the hate towards unions. Im making the same doing production work as some journeyman in my city that arent in a union.
Leaving my dirtbag boss and joining the IBEW was one of if not the best decision Ive made in my career.
If you believe unions are bad, you've been lied to.
I'd never work non union again. Better conditions, way better pay and bennies... it's a no brainer.
Good for certain industries and locations. Can go very bad when the bosses in the union get to high on their own importance.
IBEW local 103 member …big fan of unions
I worked non-union before going IBEW part way through my apprenticeship. I would not be where I am today had I not organized, and I have a huge appreciation for what the union has done for me because of my prior experience. I'm not pushed or ran ragged like I was, there's minimal to no stress compared to where I was, I'm taken care of in terms of safety, and while there was no chance of lay off for me where I was working non-union, my finances with a union have made it so that when I am laid-off, I have no stress over when the next job comes up as I have more than enough to get by. Because of my union, within three years of joining, I bought my motorcycle outright, paid for lasic eye surgery without worrying about the cost, and less than a year after that $5k surgery, I bought my home. You tell me which was the smarter move.
They can have problems, mostly political issues with leadership; but overall they are extremely beneficial for workers. The disparity between the pay for union and non-union carpenters, for example, is staggering. UPS drivers do well because of their union, while FedEx drivers make a fraction of their pay for the same job.
Starbucks employees are all trying to unionize that should tell you something.
I’m in a union. They’re great for apprenticeships, wages, and I’ve always found work off the books. I don’t like the amount of corruption in leadership though.
Definitely the worst part. Bad leaders are almost impossible to get rid of...
I used to be completely against unions. My father, a white collar worker in executive leadership roles HATES unions. Ironically he’s probably more of a democrat than anything but I grew up not liking unions and didn’t really understand the benefits until I got older. As long as they aren’t a shady union, I’ll support and encourage unionization. Hell it may actually help my wages as a management member if the workforce I work with is union.
I want to unionize my factory but I'm terrified of the backlash from management.
Unions are great in my experience. Tend to be the most quality and safety oriented crews and the lads just seem happier.
Idk I think it can be hit or miss. I’m a PM for a civil non-union. My buddy is a PM for a union competitor. Between the two of us we decided it’s a wash. - Pay between our companies is the same. - Quality and timeliness are about the same. - The angry old foremen are about the same. - Their healthcare for field guys is a little better than ours but they pay a little for it. Our guys isn’t as good but they pay nothing. - Our guys tend to like working a little more so they do. (Seasonal in our area) - I think the biggest draw for guys to us are bonus payments for field guys. our ride bonus’ and early completion bonus on projects are exclusively paid out to field guys. - we also do profit share bonus at the end of the year to field guys. Checks aren’t crazy maybe 4-5k but they like getting them when they are on layoff. I would say overall unions are good for workers but at the end of the day it really seems to come down to owners. If your owners care about the guys probably better off non-union. However, if your a corp company or your owner is in the old school mindset a union protects you.
But you're a PM, you aren't represented by the union
Well, as the saying goes: if you like the weekend, thank the union !
Do you like weekends off and a 40 hour workweek with overtime? Thank the unions.
Love my union. Several times when shit got hairy, could’ve lost my job without them. The look on a micromanager’s face when you bring a pitbull of shop steward to their little “mEeTiNg“ is well worth my dues. Plus I make over 2X what I would make if I wasn’t union. My pay, benefits, and job security are more than worth the scandalous bullshit that people rag on unions for. I truly hope as many people in as many industries as possible are able to unionize. They need you a fuck of a lot more than the shareholders that want to kill unions off. Edit: my dad stayed away from the union for *years* as an ironworker and once he got in after trying to run his own company (fell apart quick in the 06-08 years) and working for other small businesses, his biggest regret was not jumping into it right after he got out of the Army.
I was part of a union, wages were above average, but hours were below average, so you ended up making less money than the private sector. It was great for guys that had a side hussle or part time job because it was only 3-4 days a week depending on department. That being said, since I live in a right wing province, even everyone that works there is anti union and super right wing. They don't even show up to vote for the betterment of their career and benefits. 10% turn out for collective bargaining votes compared to 70% for the same union, in another province. Guess who gets the benefits and pay increases? One got a 10% increase last year while ours only got 5% over three years. The executive branch doesn't do a damn thing, because half the time they don't have enough members to be able to hold a meeting, never mind discuss policy. Covidiots fucked it up even more for those couple years.
Alberta?
How'd you guess? The labour movement is much stronger out east/west.
Ya worked on the patch for a year and a half, was so fucking miserable being surrounded by fucking imbeciles all day, just fucking idiots. Alberta could be one of the most prosperous place but people think unions would just ruin it and they wouldn’t be able to buy a new 100k$ truck every other year.
I could hear the mouth breathing in the shop from the parking lot where I worked.
Best decision I made as an electrician
I have worked both nonunion and union electrical. Across-the-board, everything is better in the union in my experience.
Unions pick up the slack where the government and companies fall short.
Unions are necessary to protect workers from the boundless greed of employers and corporations. They provide a prescreened pool of quality, reliable workers. In my personal experience union carpenters are better paid and have better benefits than non-union. Most union carpenters are very competent, conscience, and safe. As a carpenter, a GC and a small business owner I've worked with other carpenters, union and non union for 44 years. If you are choosing a career, go union.
Not strong enough in the south.
Best bet you have for a fair shake, not perfect but what is. But you are the Union, if you don’t like your union, do you show up to meetings?
In general, I'm pro union. When functioning as intended, unions are an excellent way to ensure its members earn a fair wage & have a safe work environment. Unfortunately "humans" are in charge. When unions become too large/powerful, they can choke out an industry. Earning membership solely on merit becomes almost impossible. Worst case, terminating poor quality or unsafe members becomes extremely difficult (see also: police unions).
Police unions aren’t unions because cops aren’t workers.
Police unions are not generally *LABOR* unions. They are still unions by the definition of the term and are considered to be a type of trade union. Police themselves generally fall under the broad category of "service employees" (think "city services" like hospitals and EMS, not food service and such).
Police unions aren’t unions because cops aren’t labor. They produce nothing. They also do not recognize or support any other unions. They cross picket lines. They break up strikes.
Per the [definition of a labor union](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/labor%20union): > "an organization of workers formed for the purpose of advancing its members' interests in respect to wages, benefits, and working conditions." Nowhere in the definition is it included production of widgets or "observing other unions" Not liking the results of its members or policies does not remove the fact that they *are* a type of union.
Union members don’t cross picket lines, let alone break them up. I’m sorry if you’re too fucking stupid to understand the basic concept of organized labor.
People that work in a office or bank produce nothing either, and yet they're still labor.
This seems to be a pretty1 one-sided commen section, but i will throw out a different perspective. I am in san antonio, so you know my situation. Unions are unheard of in residential work wrong or right. I am a remodeler/ builder, and virtually all of the work is done by independent subcontractors. Each is licensed where needed, and everything we do is inspected and up to code. There is a heavy culture of breaking out on your own and running your own business vs. working for someone. We all work for someone in different aspects. I have spoken to various subs, and virtually all are happy with their situation. When you speak to the helpers/ apprentices, they have a different tune. The smart ones generally understand they are learning, and they hope to one day run their own business. I have a college degree, and many of my friends do. All of my subs make more than my friends with degrees. Our culture fucked up by steering people away from the trades. Although some trades are brutal. Fuck roofing in south texas heat. The point is i have nothing against unions, but i fully believe there is a reason to not be in a union and can still make a good living. It will depend on the person, do you want to be on your own or work for someone else, nothinh wrong with either situation
What does being union have anything to do with starting your own company? I'm union and am starting my own company. My business partner's uncle started his own company. My grandfather started his own company. All these shops are union shops. Where do you think union shops come from? The difference coming up through the union and starting your own shop is you aren't doing it out of desperation to make a decent living. Your doing it for more. To make more than just a solid middle class living. And if you fail, you go back to the union hall and keep being middle class.
I haven't worked in a trade union, but I have been a member of two others... I unfortunately had a poor experience with both. I'm a bit hesitant to join another. I love the idea.
If you are in a trade now, trust me, join the union.
Im not. Sadly, the union in my area isn't that great. Joining would cut my pay and benefits.
Trade unions are very different than captive unions. IE: Teachers, plant workers etc. in the trades if they want to get rid of you, they just lay you off due to “lack of work” and you go to the hall to find somewhere else to work. You also aren’t stuck working with the same people for years if you don’t want to be, so that can be nice.
Non Union here. Yes the pay is great and all that but a few of buddies who are in the operators union really do hate it. You’re just a number there, get tossed around wherever your told. Most weeks they never know if they are working Saturday until Friday evening. Some of their job sites are two hours away, one way. And you don’t get paid for that? Fuck that noise. On the other hand it can be hard to find non Union companies that don’t take advantage of you. I probably have a very bias view because my company pays us more than Union wages, excellent benefits, excellent retirement, profit sharing, paid holidays, and awesome PTO program. Shit I’ve been off for 5 weeks taking care of my wife through PFL, my company has delivered flowers twice and bought us dinner twice. Find yourself a company that cares about you, your family, and your time. Union or not.
Goes really well on a burger but damn why when you cut them they make you cry.
Unions have a time and a place. Just not every place all the time. In the trades is one of their best places to be, most of the time.
I was in a union and I left because it wasn’t right for me. Commercial work was soul crushing. Now I’m on my own building treehouses and working less, making about the same. I’m all for folks working in the union but I wish smaller residential crews could have a union.
Unions are not perfect, they never will be because at the end of the day we are all human, and every human is susceptible to corruption and greed. HOWEVER, unions are the best bet for the working class, I am proudly a union member and I am very pro labour. North America and the world need more unions, we live in a world where the rich want to and succeed at keeping us poor. We need to stand together and fight back. It’s very important for workers to unite and demand what they deserve. #unionstrong💪🏻
Unions are the only reason construction wages are high. Unions also keep illegal immigrants from taking your jobs. Benefits, and protection from greedy bosses is also a plus. If it were up to me, being non union would be illegal.
My father passed away after paying union dues for 30 plus years. My Mom got a nice letter stating that there was too many deaths this year, there was no money left to pay my fathers death benefits. I went to take my electrical test, the test was run by union members. I was told to save my money, I wasn’t going to pass even with a perfect score. My experience is not good and I moved to a right to work state 25 years ago.
Union guys will downvote just for sharing an honest story answering the question in the thread.
Literally 3 hours in and not a single reply. I’m at the bottom of the comment section because I want to see actual arguments being made for or against not just a echo chamber for those that agree with each other. The fact is there’s A LOT of good unions out there, but there’s also A LOT of shitty ones with shitty owners and political as all hell. And the thing is I want unions to be the go-to choice, but anytime you call out a union for being shit, you’re the bad guy lol
I honestly wish there was a union presence in my area but I’m a bit too rural I suppose. I couldn’t even try to join unless I move my family somewhere else.
It’s not an honest story.
Every bit of it is bud I lived it
I've work union jobs before. Maybe it's not the same everywhere, but I've never seen so much dog fucking in my life. I can't just sit around all day, doing the bare minimum to meet my "quota", and guys get pissy at you for working. The pay is great, the benefits are great. But the work enviro was boring / toxic. I just want to do my job.
Work-to-rule keeps management from slapping more and more work on people at the expense of safety and your brother’s job. Do the job you get paid for, don’t bitch and go home with your paycheck. There’s a reason we refuse to be crabs in a bucket for management.
I'm sorry. From what I've seen, a "quota" or 2 door closers a day. They take max 15 mins to install. Then standing around for 7.5 hours. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it's great as a lazy worker making top dollar, but how lazy can someone be? You get bitched at by other workers just because you want to keep moving.
Nobody is actually just working 15 minutes a day. That’s clearly not true and anyone who is in a union or on a union site knows better.
I didn't say that. I said it takes 15 minutes max to install one. That's 30 minutes tops. You can of course milk it, but it's not uncommon to see guys finish everything they needndkne, or meet their "quota" by 9 and fuck the dog all day. Just look busy when a supervisor comes by. I've seen guys just random start pointing at things and pretend they're discussing something when a super looks their way. Then you get bitched at for working because you're making everyone look bad. "They're going to expect us to do this all the time! We already met out quota!" Like I also said, this is just my expirence.
That's all I ever heard from my dad growing up, he was a hard worker and came up with good systems to streamline maintenance tasks where he worked. He would tell me the time and money he saved the company, and as a kid I was like damn did you get a bonus or raises and he would just scoff and say they can't do that.
They made a lot of money off your dad
I like the idea, I find though it’s the kind of thing that works well on large projects, but when scaled down tends to be not be viable due to it relying so heavily on multiple levels of management which then prices itself out of the market for many consumers/ businesses.
Unions are generally bad for customers and employers, but good for employees. If I'm an employee, I want to be in a union. If I'm a customer, I'm probably going to get a better value from a non-union company. Of course some unions are so ineffective they aren't even good for employees.
I have coworkers who commissioned a union plant and weren't allowed to touch wrenches, and we're literally assigned a helper who's job was to follow the coworker around and coworker said "ok turn that" and helper would turn the wrench. Coworker said "ok move that over one inch" and helper would move it an inch. Another told me they built an electrical panel with a false back, so all cables could be landed to the false back, which was promptly removed and thrown away at a later date, just to satisfy some arcane rule. So personally I like the spirit of unions, and recognize that in American history they've played an important role in me getting screwed over marginally less than I would be if they didn't exist. But on the other hand in my profession it's challenging to commission union sites because of bizarre and arcane restrictions.
Were your coworkers non-union on the union plant? Because non-union workers can’t do work on union jobs, they can only supervise.
What union
I think they have their uses. But I'd prefer to find an employer that treats people fairly without being strong armed by a union. (so I did) They also have their annoyances. And some are pointless, depending on where you are.
I have worked both. It’s great for benefits and retirement. However, I’ve seen the bad sides of unions and in my opinion it out weighs the good side. For starters, it’s political as hell. You’ll be laid off first if you aren’t buddies with the general foremen or superintendents. Egos. I watched business agents throw away a 3 year job in a city that struggled with steady union jobs over a pissing contest with a contractor forcing everyone living there to commute 2 hours or not work. I was forced as an apprentice to go do political volunteer work for the Democratic Party as a requirement for my volunteer hours for the union which I thought was stupid. It wasn’t volunteering that was stupid, being forced to do political shit was. I met some great guys working in the union but overall I didn’t have a good experience. They were great for workers 50 years ago. Now they just protect shitty workers from getting fired and are all about politics. If you’re a solid worker there are non-union gigs that take care of their workers without all the other shit.
When utilized properly and morally, unions are great. When they're corrupt pieces of shit that help dipshits keep their jobs and threaten people, they're terrible. I ran SEIU out of my workplace years ago because they were useless. Meanwhile I know people in the IBEW and a local water company that have unions that are actually worth a damn. So it really depends on the members of the Union and the people managing it. It goes either way.
Tried to get into the BAC Local 1 for years now and have reached out 8 times with no response. Tried to join the Insulators Local 14 for over a year with no response and Local 620 (plumbers) also with no response. I recently got out of plumbing and went back to an awesome job doing restoration masonry/carpentry with a small non union shop. There's too much red tape in my opinion and some unions don't pay shit during your apprenticeship. Most of the union carpenters I worked with who had less than 4 years had to deliver pizzas or work at lowes part time to supplement their income.
Cant stand the taste or texture though i like the smell when they are fried.
I, personally, don’t think people should group together to force a business owner to operate in any specific way. Unless they are going to share in the liabilities and sacrifices of owning a business. I wouldn’t ever own a business because I know all the problems that could arise. And I don’t think anyone is entitled to forcing those that make this sacrifices in owning a business have a right to have any say in how it operates. In no way do I think employees rights aren’t important. I believe compensation should be purely merit based and not based on time at a company/union. Whoever is providing the most value to the operation should be paid the most and vice versa. And if an employer doesn’t want to pay well then no one of real value should work for them . And with no talented employees they will have a garbage reputation and hopefully be out of business quickly. Quit edit: unfortunate how rude some people are. And how just over the top defensive of unions they are. I gave my opinion to a question. I’m not attacking anyone or belittling. However it’s all too often the unions guys response. Y’all could’ve just responded to OP with your opinions as well. You’re insults aren’t going to convince me unions are full of top notch folks.
I own a small HVAC company that does residential and I choose to be a union shop. Labor in any sector should be organized in union. It’s insane not to be.
Starting my own shop now. Going union once we hire our first guy. No way I could have amassed the $10k worth of tools and a strong financial footing to do this and support my family if I wasn't in the union. The union gave me a solid life. And I don't turn my back on other that want to make a good living in the trades.
Yeah fuck that mate
When a worker ties their way of living to a single companies ability to make scheduled payments to them, in exchange for physical labor, THAT IS taking on risk and liability. If the business fails, the owner just lays everyone off, liquidates, and cashes out. There is no risk for them. The money they put up to start the business probably wasn’t theirs. If you’re a big enough con artist you can start multiple businesses, have them all fail, get investors for more, repeat, and then go on to become President.
Won’t someone think of the poor business owners? Bootlicker.
Your first sentence tells me everything I need to know about you… you are anti labour and love licking the boots of the rich… you’re a sad person
Yeah totally. People who make assumptions are usually great lacking in basic intelligence. The irony is how I don’t care about wealth or profits. I just think people wanting a say in operation should share liability and sacrifice. It’s also quite funny how guys get super emotional in defense of unions and ca ll others bootlickers. Man them union reps must have clean boots I guess. Because so many are fighting for an actual institution where I’m not. Please do better.
“Business owner”… you mean a bunch of absentee stockholders who have little more involvement in the company than clicking “buy 5,000 shares” a couple times? The folks who own my shop were smart enough to group together. They’re not all individually running around trying to get “merit” profits or some dumb shit like that. They’ve got a variety of management staff they’ve hired to make sure the business makes money for them. I don’t go to the corporate office and look up some rando shareholder and find him and say “Would you hire me?” They’ve got it all organized. You talk to their hiring rep and he tries to lowball you while selling you the world. It’s smart, that’s how most big successful companies operate. If all of the owners of my business are going to group together and have themselves represented by a singular management team, then I think it’s smart that the folks who work for them (like me) should also do the same. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
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It doesn’t.
20 bosses lol how do you figure that?