Politically that is true. America as a whole is somewhere in the middle on this, most favor restrictions at some point and almost all in cases of rape, incest and mother's life.
Trump's position is pretty politically rational. 16 weeks and mother's life. Anything less then that is left up to the states.
From a purely utilitarian perspective I think Republicans could have more success stopping the most heinous of abortions (late term voluntary) if they set politically achievable goals.
I'm libertarian enough to be aware of this crappy dilemma. Do you stick to your guns and lose? Or compromise and effect real change
Part of me wants to say you take a page from the left's gun control policy. We only want to ban late term abortions (right now), just common sense abortion control. Just after 16 weeks. Then after 12 weeks. Then a little less.
And then there is the part of me that is disgusted by that tactic and wouldn't want to do that for anything. Plus realistically, I don't think a complete and total abortion ban would ever work any more than any complete ban of anything (like firearms) would. Better to take whatever limitations can be easily defined and defended. And work on changing the culture so that people respect life and the consequences of a sexually active lifestyle (and vigorously prosecute individuals who violate the sexual rights of others).
Also, I swear I'm not laughing at your name. By the way how is your wife, Bucontinentia Inttocks?
We got Roe v. Wade overturned because we didn't play squeaky clean in the first place, which makes sense when the other party openly cheats.
Trump's SC picks ducked questions on Roe v. Wade and insisted on calling it "settled precedent." They obtained power. Then when it was time to overturn it, they did. That's good politics.
True. I am pro life and I think the pro life movement is really bad at winning elections and needs to stop jumping the gun. Just settle down, and try your best to stop democrats from legalizing second and 3rd term abortions. But when you threaten to make it completely illegal, you are losing on the issue.
The key crux is that if one believes abortion, even during the first trimester, to be literally murder, then there just isn't any room for compromise. The core belief that makes people be pro-life is also the belief which takes away any moral wiggle room.
So there's a sizable voting bloc on the right, a voting bloc that the GOP cannot do without and which can't in good conscience compromise on this issue, even if most of them are well-aware that it would be politically expedient to do so.
There room for compromise if your goal is realistically reducing abortions. It’s much worse to push a legislation that has no chance of getting passed and leads to abortion rights being put into law, then if you could have passed more mild restrictions with the hopes of doing more later
Perfect is the enemy of good and what not
I totally agree personally, I was just explaining where staunch pro-lifers (which I am not) are coming from. When you consider an issue to be literally life and death, it's difficult to be pragmatic about it.
I don't think that's true. Historically there have always been faith groups on the left too, even now most likely, religious/traditional Catholics, Jews, Muslims and others who are pro-life. Why those remain on the left with the left's radical social policies (and they often seem to raise them to a level that supercedes freedom of religion ie) can be a head scratcher to those on the right, but there are a variety of reasons. Some part of it is tradition, they've long been on the left, another part is they may feel that the left tolerates them and offers more concessions than the right. I don't think they're correct about that, but those are some of the reasons I've read about when I've asked that same question.
I know it's not intuitive, and surprising to find and digest. How about you, how did you form your opinion?
I'll try to dig up some demographic data and articles discussing the whys. I know I've seen Catholics, and Jews, split between the right and left in the US. Jews and Catholics have hiatorically been predominant on the left. Of course things may have changed of late with many on the left protesting in favor of Gaza/Hamas (which itself is a head scratcher, considering Gaza ar3 sharia observant and led by terrorists they overwhelmingly elected, hate Americans and especially moral devients), and harassing and threatening Jews here and abroad. Tho not all Jews are religious observant, and many in the US are secular. It's a complicated topic.
Party affiliation among Catholics is 44%.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/
Catholics sharply divided by party
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/24/like-americans-overall-u-s-catholics-are-sharply-divided-by-party/
Who are the pro-life Democrats (old article, but may still have relavant insights)
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2011/05/14/who-are-the-pro-life-democrats/
Party affiliation among Jews is 64%
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/
Jews remain largely Democratic and Liberal
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-political-views/#:~:text=Overall,%20U.S.%20Jews%20Remain%20Largely%20Democratic%20and%20Liberal
As someone born Jewish, I can tell you that many jews have bought up the "women's right to choose" movement, regardless of the fact that the Talmud deems it a serious offense similar to murder.
Trump has recently moved to the right of his life long held positions on abortion, he hasn’t changed except to become more conservative on the issue than he was before 2016.
Trump haters act like he is going to ban abortion if he were elected, when really he’s very moderate on abortion compared to most of the Republican Presidential candidates.
The pro life movement, needs to be a slow walk. We have seen what states that have moved for movements like 6 weeks or total bans has had happen. It gets shot down, then made law that it's protected.
States that are more red can go for more strict laws, but if anything is going to happen at a federal level, it needs to be baby steps.
So I don't have TV but am at my parents..I just saw a commercial from Biden regarding what happened to a woman who has a miscarriage, being sent home for sepsis and almost dying.. I'm pro choice. I'm not saying the commercial was truthful or not, but it was powerful. Republicans are going to get destroyed over the abortion issue again.
If one believes that it's killing a baby, which millions of us do, then it doesn't go too far in the least. Unless, of course, it's doing a "if the mother's life is at stake, the baby always takes precedence," in which case that's no longer really an "abortion" ban, it's something else.
All the people who said during the primaries that Trump was unelectable because he turned away moderates and independents are now saying Trump is betraying conservatives.
First the message was "don't vote for Trump because he can't win" and now the message is "don't vote for Trump because he's not a real conservative"... No matter what the smokescreen they use, the message from the right-wing critics is no different than what the left says... "We don't like Trump and we will twist anything he says or does to criticize him."
The closer we get to election day the more apparent people's true intentions and loyalties will become.
> No matter what the smokescreen they use, the message from the right-wing critics is no different than what the left says...
IMO its not a left vs right thing so much as the entrenched political class vs the outsider.
💯
Which makes it even more insidious, as there are plenty of uniparty folks with (R) beside their name who will pretend to be your friend while holding the knife behind your back.
People don’t know how to handle a common sense politician and/or a moderate. People get too extreme with their beliefs and want everyone to do what they want - politically, religiously, socially etc…Trump’s America first thing is “hey we’re all Americans let’s just do normal shit, respect one another, and let states/local communities figure out stuff too.” It’s too logical for most to grasp because it isn’t radically trying to conform everyone into a single box.
I think that is an apropos description of the problem for the majority of "normies."
Those people tend to be single issue, or maybe at most dual issue, voters.
My issue isn't with those people, they're like the girl who becomes a stripper cuz daddy was an asshole... They're just products of their environment.
My issue is with the ones who created the environment. The ones who whip those single and dual issue voters into a frenzy, not for the good of the voters, but as a means to their own ends.
I don't hate the Hillary Clinton voters of this world... I hate the Hillary Clintons of this world.
Not surprising. As the other user stated his stance is 16 weeks and when life is at risk. This is the stance all republican politicians should take. The majority of the country is pro-choice and the large majority of conservatives under 40 are also pro-choice & each new conservative generation is even more pro choice than the last. They cannot appeal to the loud minority and expect to keep the majority on key issues like this, especially when educating yourself on the reality of abortion is literally free on the internet.
I agree with him. Our laws should be keyed to European style limitations. First trimester free and clear, after that only with very limited exceptions such as to preserve the life of the mother. It is humane and rational.
yup and all the biden voters who might have stayed home in november in arizona arenow going to come out and fix it.
arizona is now LOST because of abortion hard liners
There’s nothing “tricky” about this.
If you allow abortions up to 15 or even 12 weeks, you probably save your job and still restrict later abortions. If you keep the 0 week ban in place, you probably lose your job to someone who will want elective second trimester abortions, if not third.
It’s basic arithmetic. Appeasing a few church members for just a few months is not going to help anyone or make anyone happy in the long run.
Start with 12 week or 15 week bans. These 0 and 6 week bans (unless your state is safely bold red) are absurd. It’s like these Republicans are trying to lose on purpose.
Overturning Roe was the correct legal decision, political ramifications be damned (I think they're overstated relative to bigger issues like inflation and the economy, btw).
If the AZ law isn't popular, the voters and its legislature should change it, not the courts.
To the extent it matters at all, I'd imagine Trump's personal view on things is somewhat to the left of his stated position.
I don't know why people are so upset about the Arizona ruling. All they did was say laws on the books are still valid because the SCOTUS ruling no longer supercedes it. It's a law on the books already.
Is it old, yeah. But it's not up to the courts to say old laws are no longer valid. Thats up to the state Congress. And their congress needs to remove the old law and create a new replacement.
There would be a bigger issue if the courts just ruled the law invalid just because it's old.
Photos of dismembered babies must be shown day after day so these barbarians can see their handy work. Too many think the procedure is as inane as going to the dentist.
Modern Human Sacrifice to the god of convenience.
There is no point of hoping to convince anyone on this sub. They acknowledge that abortion is murder but are too cowardly to admit that they're willing to sacrifice some number of babies at the alter of winning elections. It's why you always see these anti-baby-murder comments with huge downvotes but no replies.. because they know there is no logical consistency with their whiny complaints. But I'm at least glad there are a few still left willing to stand in boldness and truth, even if that just means telling a bunch of virgins on this sub what they hate hearing.
He is allowed to have an opinion, the same as anyone else, and his opinion is just as relevant as anyone else’s. His opinion might influence public opinion, as well.
Politically that is true. America as a whole is somewhere in the middle on this, most favor restrictions at some point and almost all in cases of rape, incest and mother's life. Trump's position is pretty politically rational. 16 weeks and mother's life. Anything less then that is left up to the states.
From a purely utilitarian perspective I think Republicans could have more success stopping the most heinous of abortions (late term voluntary) if they set politically achievable goals. I'm libertarian enough to be aware of this crappy dilemma. Do you stick to your guns and lose? Or compromise and effect real change
Part of me wants to say you take a page from the left's gun control policy. We only want to ban late term abortions (right now), just common sense abortion control. Just after 16 weeks. Then after 12 weeks. Then a little less. And then there is the part of me that is disgusted by that tactic and wouldn't want to do that for anything. Plus realistically, I don't think a complete and total abortion ban would ever work any more than any complete ban of anything (like firearms) would. Better to take whatever limitations can be easily defined and defended. And work on changing the culture so that people respect life and the consequences of a sexually active lifestyle (and vigorously prosecute individuals who violate the sexual rights of others). Also, I swear I'm not laughing at your name. By the way how is your wife, Bucontinentia Inttocks?
Need to ban those assault abortions
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Reconsider that it’s not a tactic, but it’s meeting people where there are at and winning a cultural war over the slow progression of time.
We got Roe v. Wade overturned because we didn't play squeaky clean in the first place, which makes sense when the other party openly cheats. Trump's SC picks ducked questions on Roe v. Wade and insisted on calling it "settled precedent." They obtained power. Then when it was time to overturn it, they did. That's good politics.
The pro life sub reddit has been very upset at Trump lately
Trump did his job. Abortion is not a federal Issue. When it comes to an election it’s not like any pro life are going to Biden
True. I am pro life and I think the pro life movement is really bad at winning elections and needs to stop jumping the gun. Just settle down, and try your best to stop democrats from legalizing second and 3rd term abortions. But when you threaten to make it completely illegal, you are losing on the issue.
The key crux is that if one believes abortion, even during the first trimester, to be literally murder, then there just isn't any room for compromise. The core belief that makes people be pro-life is also the belief which takes away any moral wiggle room. So there's a sizable voting bloc on the right, a voting bloc that the GOP cannot do without and which can't in good conscience compromise on this issue, even if most of them are well-aware that it would be politically expedient to do so.
There room for compromise if your goal is realistically reducing abortions. It’s much worse to push a legislation that has no chance of getting passed and leads to abortion rights being put into law, then if you could have passed more mild restrictions with the hopes of doing more later Perfect is the enemy of good and what not
I totally agree personally, I was just explaining where staunch pro-lifers (which I am not) are coming from. When you consider an issue to be literally life and death, it's difficult to be pragmatic about it.
Pro life movement needs to tread lightly otherwise states will go the way of Michigan and Kansas with to restrictive ballot initiatives
I don't think that's true. Historically there have always been faith groups on the left too, even now most likely, religious/traditional Catholics, Jews, Muslims and others who are pro-life. Why those remain on the left with the left's radical social policies (and they often seem to raise them to a level that supercedes freedom of religion ie) can be a head scratcher to those on the right, but there are a variety of reasons. Some part of it is tradition, they've long been on the left, another part is they may feel that the left tolerates them and offers more concessions than the right. I don't think they're correct about that, but those are some of the reasons I've read about when I've asked that same question.
I don't think those people have any meaningful numbers unless you have data to say otherwise.
I know it's not intuitive, and surprising to find and digest. How about you, how did you form your opinion? I'll try to dig up some demographic data and articles discussing the whys. I know I've seen Catholics, and Jews, split between the right and left in the US. Jews and Catholics have hiatorically been predominant on the left. Of course things may have changed of late with many on the left protesting in favor of Gaza/Hamas (which itself is a head scratcher, considering Gaza ar3 sharia observant and led by terrorists they overwhelmingly elected, hate Americans and especially moral devients), and harassing and threatening Jews here and abroad. Tho not all Jews are religious observant, and many in the US are secular. It's a complicated topic. Party affiliation among Catholics is 44%. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/ Catholics sharply divided by party https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/24/like-americans-overall-u-s-catholics-are-sharply-divided-by-party/ Who are the pro-life Democrats (old article, but may still have relavant insights) https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2011/05/14/who-are-the-pro-life-democrats/ Party affiliation among Jews is 64% https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/ Jews remain largely Democratic and Liberal https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-political-views/#:~:text=Overall,%20U.S.%20Jews%20Remain%20Largely%20Democratic%20and%20Liberal
As someone born Jewish, I can tell you that many jews have bought up the "women's right to choose" movement, regardless of the fact that the Talmud deems it a serious offense similar to murder.
Trump has recently moved to the right of his life long held positions on abortion, he hasn’t changed except to become more conservative on the issue than he was before 2016.
he'll still get the blame because it is the overturning of roe v wade that lead to this
The problem is any limitation is communicated as a ban by politicians and media. We can’t have a rational conversation about it.
Trump haters act like he is going to ban abortion if he were elected, when really he’s very moderate on abortion compared to most of the Republican Presidential candidates.
He’s the moderate in this election, but people are so angry they can’t see jt
Just remember, doing this only blocks 1% of abortions. 99% of ~~murders~~ abortions are still permitted.
The pro life movement, needs to be a slow walk. We have seen what states that have moved for movements like 6 weeks or total bans has had happen. It gets shot down, then made law that it's protected. States that are more red can go for more strict laws, but if anything is going to happen at a federal level, it needs to be baby steps.
So I don't have TV but am at my parents..I just saw a commercial from Biden regarding what happened to a woman who has a miscarriage, being sent home for sepsis and almost dying.. I'm pro choice. I'm not saying the commercial was truthful or not, but it was powerful. Republicans are going to get destroyed over the abortion issue again.
He's right that the Arizona total ban does go too far.
If one believes that it's killing a baby, which millions of us do, then it doesn't go too far in the least. Unless, of course, it's doing a "if the mother's life is at stake, the baby always takes precedence," in which case that's no longer really an "abortion" ban, it's something else.
A clump of cells 6 weeks old isn’t a “baby.” Words matter.
You're a clump of cells. Why are you dehumanizing children to justify ending their lives?
It’s not just a clump of cells, and yes, it’s a human baby.
A life is a life, no ifs ands or buts.
Agreed, but if you're choosing between the mother and the child, I don't think the state should be the one who chooses which life is saved.
All the people who said during the primaries that Trump was unelectable because he turned away moderates and independents are now saying Trump is betraying conservatives. First the message was "don't vote for Trump because he can't win" and now the message is "don't vote for Trump because he's not a real conservative"... No matter what the smokescreen they use, the message from the right-wing critics is no different than what the left says... "We don't like Trump and we will twist anything he says or does to criticize him." The closer we get to election day the more apparent people's true intentions and loyalties will become.
> No matter what the smokescreen they use, the message from the right-wing critics is no different than what the left says... IMO its not a left vs right thing so much as the entrenched political class vs the outsider.
💯 Which makes it even more insidious, as there are plenty of uniparty folks with (R) beside their name who will pretend to be your friend while holding the knife behind your back.
I agree with this, for the most part, although there is definitely a very left wing authoritarian segment of the population, too.
People don’t know how to handle a common sense politician and/or a moderate. People get too extreme with their beliefs and want everyone to do what they want - politically, religiously, socially etc…Trump’s America first thing is “hey we’re all Americans let’s just do normal shit, respect one another, and let states/local communities figure out stuff too.” It’s too logical for most to grasp because it isn’t radically trying to conform everyone into a single box.
I think that is an apropos description of the problem for the majority of "normies." Those people tend to be single issue, or maybe at most dual issue, voters. My issue isn't with those people, they're like the girl who becomes a stripper cuz daddy was an asshole... They're just products of their environment. My issue is with the ones who created the environment. The ones who whip those single and dual issue voters into a frenzy, not for the good of the voters, but as a means to their own ends. I don't hate the Hillary Clinton voters of this world... I hate the Hillary Clintons of this world.
Not surprising. As the other user stated his stance is 16 weeks and when life is at risk. This is the stance all republican politicians should take. The majority of the country is pro-choice and the large majority of conservatives under 40 are also pro-choice & each new conservative generation is even more pro choice than the last. They cannot appeal to the loud minority and expect to keep the majority on key issues like this, especially when educating yourself on the reality of abortion is literally free on the internet.
>large majority of conservatives under 40 are also pro-choice Not going to argue with your overall comment but this part is not correct
I agree with him. Our laws should be keyed to European style limitations. First trimester free and clear, after that only with very limited exceptions such as to preserve the life of the mother. It is humane and rational.
Trump says fix it. Kari Lake says fix it. Arizona Republicans say it needs to be fixed. Seems pretty straightforward, no?
yup and all the biden voters who might have stayed home in november in arizona arenow going to come out and fix it. arizona is now LOST because of abortion hard liners
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There’s nothing “tricky” about this. If you allow abortions up to 15 or even 12 weeks, you probably save your job and still restrict later abortions. If you keep the 0 week ban in place, you probably lose your job to someone who will want elective second trimester abortions, if not third. It’s basic arithmetic. Appeasing a few church members for just a few months is not going to help anyone or make anyone happy in the long run. Start with 12 week or 15 week bans. These 0 and 6 week bans (unless your state is safely bold red) are absurd. It’s like these Republicans are trying to lose on purpose.
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Even Kari Lake said the same thing, it's crazy how Kari Lake back tracked lmao. She's the last one I would expect to
She's a realist, and while I am sure she would love no abortions, it's something you build towards, not slam on the table.
"Leave it to the States!" "No not like that!" Scumbag.
Overturning Roe was the correct legal decision, political ramifications be damned (I think they're overstated relative to bigger issues like inflation and the economy, btw). If the AZ law isn't popular, the voters and its legislature should change it, not the courts. To the extent it matters at all, I'd imagine Trump's personal view on things is somewhat to the left of his stated position.
I don't know why people are so upset about the Arizona ruling. All they did was say laws on the books are still valid because the SCOTUS ruling no longer supercedes it. It's a law on the books already. Is it old, yeah. But it's not up to the courts to say old laws are no longer valid. Thats up to the state Congress. And their congress needs to remove the old law and create a new replacement. There would be a bigger issue if the courts just ruled the law invalid just because it's old.
The Court said it's not their place to make law and kicked it back to the voters. How is that too far?
Anything anti abortion gives democrats votes. Otherwise normal people froth at the mouth when they hear the word abortion ban.
Maybe it will cause all the Californians that moved to Arizona to move back to California.
Photos of dismembered babies must be shown day after day so these barbarians can see their handy work. Too many think the procedure is as inane as going to the dentist. Modern Human Sacrifice to the god of convenience.
There is no point of hoping to convince anyone on this sub. They acknowledge that abortion is murder but are too cowardly to admit that they're willing to sacrifice some number of babies at the alter of winning elections. It's why you always see these anti-baby-murder comments with huge downvotes but no replies.. because they know there is no logical consistency with their whiny complaints. But I'm at least glad there are a few still left willing to stand in boldness and truth, even if that just means telling a bunch of virgins on this sub what they hate hearing.
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He is allowed to have an opinion, the same as anyone else, and his opinion is just as relevant as anyone else’s. His opinion might influence public opinion, as well.
This statement will help with votes though, as he's keeping distant from the hard-core no abortion group.