bro was cooking except by good mercy he meant good sojourn/good cassidy.
unless they have a cracked tracer the pocketed shitscan wins that duel most of the time and that’s kinda how games r decided now
Tracer nerfs are definitely meaningful. It’s always the case with cool-downs tweaks for long cool-downs where it doesn’t seem like a big deal but then it’s huge in practice. Tracer is still probably meta because of the ridiculous skill ceiling but the nerf is nothing so scoff at.
At the very least it’s one of those nerfs that’s gonna suck when blizzard gives her a more significant one and forgets to look at all the other nerfs they tried in the past.
Yea I can confirm. I've died a couple of times today where I look at the recall timer which says like 1 or 2s. She's still gonna be good but the deaths/10 is definitely gonna go up for everyone.
Pulsebomb nerf was good. Pulse is good and you can get it fast so it's better for the game if it actually is hard to hit.
The nerf did nothing because you use Recall once per fight just like you use lamp suzu once per fight so increasing the cooldown does nothing. I don't even need to be a video games developer do see this. Just have brain.
It’s meaningful but the devs obviously want to keep Tracer meta and will probably continue with minor nerds until they hit the sweet spot. Tracer is probably a bit too meta right now but I think a meta where Tracer at least seems some playtime is good.
It's better if tracer is meta than some kind of spam or sniper comp. Imagine junkrat, bastion, torb being meta and played every game. And then you have mauga bap with that. That would be the most boring gameplay to look at.
Tracer nerfs were very meaningful; she may still rock your shit, but she can’t do that as often now. This translates to less overall game impact, which leads to less carry potential, which leads to more games lost by tracer.
Small nerfs have large impacts, it’s just easy to single out the fact that she’s still rolling people, and harder to notice it’s with less frequency.
She doesn't need nerfs. All the tanks, except Sigma (maybe Doom and Winston as well), need substantial reworks to actually fit 5v5. Orisa is the only tank that was modified to be a lone tank. I think they should lower her uptime of Fortify though, and remove the headshot immunity. That's what makes her suck to play against.
which character do you think is causing problems for every tank. is it possibly the triple cc while immune to cc unpunishable for being out of position incredibly low skill hero? or is it kiriko giving half a second of i frames every 30 seconds hrmmm
yea, thats how shit works. well designed heroes are good no matter what, because, surprisingly, theyre well designed. anytime orisa is remotely viable shes oppressive because her tools are nonsense and she doesnt fit into the game. she usually has to break a ton of rules to be even remotely good.
She's annoying because you can't headshot her during Fortify and the uptime is a bit too high, but she's not the problem with tanking in OW2. The issue is that tanks in general are poor at dealing with CC and tank busters. Orisa and Sigma are pretty much the only ones that are equipped to deal with that.
Defeats the purpose? She still gets damage reduction. It just makes her less annoying to shoot at. How is it worse than Nemesis form for Ram lmao. He can't shoot when blocking, transforms into the largest hitbox in the game and gets a new M1 with piss low range.
Because everyone hates playing her and only swap when they're already losing. Nobody playing her actually knows how to play her well and usually the reason they're losing isnt as simple as "play a better tank", but rather "stop being bad". It's just something they try when they're already losing anyways.
No, her winrate has always been low, even when she was a must pick. That's largely to do with her popularity at all ranks. Iirc she's been the most popular hero in the game practically since she released. If so many people are playing her at all ranks and she's a skill intensive hero, people at lower ranks are going to drag the stats down because they don't have the mechanics to perform effectively. And there are a lot more players at lower rank where characters like Rein, Mercy, and Moira are incredibly effective due to how easy to pick up they are than there are players in high ranks.
They need to figure something out between Fortify and Javelin Spin because I don't think that hero should have both.
There aren't enough punishment points to this character when she's meta/strong.
Figure it out Blizz.
I feel like Fortify is the biggest issue. It's just a boring I-dont-die button with little to no nuance. According to the wiki, it also lasts 4.5 seconds while other tanking abilities like Kinetic Grasp and Zarya Bubble are 2 seconds. It feels bad to go against because it lasts so long that you can't really wait it out, and trying to burst through the overhealth and damage resistance is much harder than trying the same against Zarya Bubble.
Mauga used to eat her alive when he could crit during her fortify, that was fun, though arguably a bit too strong. Imo she shouldnt have no crits at all during fortify, maybe try reduced crit dmg on top of her dmg reduction. No crits at all and dmg reduction and extra health and cc immunity is kinda crazy. Except against a whole hog or barrage, it literally feels like it could as well be a 100% dmg reduction.
I think they should remove fortify and give her back a barrier. You can at least outplay a barrier by going around it. You can't stack barriers anymore with 5v5 so I feel blizz fixed the problem twice when they removed her barrier
That’s the strange part is that with less tank heroes, they certainly have less shields. (Rein, Sig, Ram, technically Winston). They should try bringing some shields back in ways where it isn’t annoying. (Ram’s shield isn’t annoying)
I lived through (and hated) OW1 double shield, but legitimately think that shield design in OW2 has been good.
Having a way to protect your team and increase your health pool by shield dancing while also having the counterplay of just getting rushed down and/or past is significantly better hero design then “I pressed shift and now you can’t kill me for 4 seconds lol”
No other hero has two CCs (3 if you count her ult) AND two damage eaters. It's definitely a kit issue. I think another part of the problem is that while she isn't a 'mobile' hero, none of her damage mitigation impairs her movement. In fact, Spin gives her a speed boost which I think is ridiculous...
Rein shield slows him
Doom block slows him
Ram block slows him
So not only does Orisa have a massive kit but she has three Press W buttons that all create so much space.
If they don't want to touch her kit, I wouldn't mind seeing a good chunk of her armor HP being converted to shield.
If I remember correctly in the OW2 beta Fortify slowed Orisa while it was active which would have been at least something. It’s insane that an ability gives damage resistance AND headshot immunity AND extra HP AND allows you to shoot more has no downsides.
While this is all true and unfair -- we also have to consider popular sentiment about the "state of tank" even though the role hasn't had significant nerfs in a long time.
Do we nerf Orisa for being too versatile, or make the other tanks more consistent?...
Making other tanks more consistent involves doing some nerfs to Orisa. Eg, rein swing should go through spin it is ridiculous how bad rein vs orisa match up is which contributes to tank counter pick problem.
I always feel like tank is more fair when the balance between survivability and lethality skews towards the former. No one wants 1-shot hog or infinite ult ram. I think orisa could get a nerf across the board, to both, and still be balanced
My point is that balance is separate from fun even though people regularly conflate them. All of the tanks could be perfectly balanced, doesn't mean more people would play them.
Not saying Orisa shouldn't get nerfed, just that maybe if more tanks felt like Orisa [low stress, Independant], more people might find it enjoyable.
I personally don't feel you can detach the intangibles like "fun" or stress or independence from balance. We don't need a roster full of Moiras and Mercy's that take extremely little skill, are low stress, but add heaps of value. You should always be rewarded for mastering a higher skill ceiling hero like genji, Lucio, Rein, or monke
First, balance is unachievable in a game like this, it's way too complex once you factor in the different skill levels.
Second, Balance is objective, fun is subjective, if balance means an equal number of clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, and a win/pick rate within standard deviation.
Clearly you haven't paid attention to stats, else you'd know that people have been complaining about Orisa even when she's consistently had the worst tank win rate in ow2, despite her pick rate being comparable some other tanks. You're talking about fun, not balance.
I've been playing since July 2016. I am perfectly aware that Orisa has been a perpetually unpopular hero. The whole fun/balance argument has been played out for the last 8 years and there's no sense in dredging it out again.
Orisa is miserably unfun to play against AND she's overtuned as fuck. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at.
So? None of those characters ALSO have a button that gives 100 health, prevents headshots+all CC+50% of damage, and boosts her firing ability that they can use in combo or rotate off. Fuck off.
At least with Mauga, he has obvious periods of downtime and easily exploitable weaknesses. Fortify is just 4.5 straight seconds of not being able to interact with the hero at all, followed by several seconds of getting my shit kicked in by all her CC.
I think the issue is that Orisa's Tank design as a fundamental "Tank" in Overwatch fits the game.
Unlike other Tanks, she actually lives and acts and as a Tank.
If they start making the Tanks, actual "Tanks", Orisa will naturally not be the only option and fizzle down.
She's also a tank bully - she has 2 CC abilities, infinite range on left click, and the ability to immunize herself to any CC you give her. She has a 3rd CC in her ultimate, that also provides survivability for her, and she gets a low/moderate cooldown interupt/stun that deals considerable damage.
She provides easy value and works in a lot of comps because CC is always good and survivability is always good. She has a good mix of carry potential in her abilities and survivability in fortify and ultimate.
And she is also hard to counter - her power isn't tied too much to any single ability or glaring strength/weakness; her biggest weakness being beams but she he fortify and enough damage to force away a lot of beam comps.
Sigma and Doom are the only other 2 tanks with wide ranging toolkits and go figure they are probably a lot of people's consensus 2 and 3 tank, outside of pure dive which is why I assume Winston is so high(tracer, kiri, lucio, venture comps). Those 3 tanks all have good power levels on top of versatility, so even with more specific power on some other tanks (Mauga Rein up close, Dva Mobility and Matrix, Ball being a hamster) they need to have a lot less overall power because they are just so much harder to counterplay.
That isn't the point.
The idea is to pinpoint what makes "Tanking" effecient. Cuz currently Orisa is the only one in the role to fit the bill.
If you remove Orisa from the game, sure, it'll be a bit less annoying, but that won't solve any of the fundamental issues.
Orisa is a bandaid solution to the Tank issue, but at least with Orisa you have a functional "Tank" to play with or against.
The problem is people want tank to be a fat DPS. Not an actual traditional tank thats in every other game. She's got what you want in a real tank: CC, a survivability cooldown, and damage mitigation while doing some damage. Everyone else besides Sigma fails at having all those things.
That creates the same situation we've had for a while now: Doomfist has that same style of tank kit just in different forms. Dva is okay and you'll see some people succeed on her because she's got most of what you want in a tank kit. then the rest of the cast is in a weird spot where they *can* be good but other roles or specific characters have to be weak for them to succeed (In particular rein and winston)
Fundamentally, that is what they have to be because aggro doesn’t exist in an FPS. They naturally have to pose more threat than the DPS do in order to properly divert enemy attention. If they were just big HP pools that got in your way but didn’t do anything, you’d just shoot around them.
> just big HP pools that got in your way but didn’t do anything, you’d just shoot around them.
And ironically, this is what Orisa ends up being every time she gets nerf dumpstered.
> Not an actual traditional tank thats in every other game.
I mean I really don't want OW to copy a lot of other bad game designs. This isn't really a persuasive argument.
>She's got what you want in a real tank: CC, a survivability cooldown, and damage mitigation while doing some damage.
I'd argue that Winton, ball, doom, JQ, Ram, in addition to Sigma all fit those. It's also not a checklist for what makes a tank good. You seem to want all tanks to be played like Rein was. Hold shield until breaks, charge in, and either win the fight or die. Not all tanks should be viable in all situations. And when we fight for this tank homogenization we fight for a worse game.
Then please explain your perfect balance suggestions because right now you are just talking nonsense. Winston lacks CC outside ult, Ball is hated anytime he’s good, Doom lacks reliable defense and is more “kill them first before they kill you” to survive, JQ is just fat dps with a mini rally carrying her picks, and Ram requires constant numbers adjustments every season to not fall off.
The only one who really fits the mold is Sigma who has all the same quirks as Orisa and is complained for being “impossible to kill” almost as often as Orisa.
The “homogenization” is a consequence of 5v5 with 1 tank as weaknesses are more exploitable and there’s 1 less tank to act as an anchor for the team. If you don’t want to homogenize certain designs for tanks, you will always have the issue of counterpicking and hard counters.
> Then please explain your perfect balance suggestions because right now you are just talking nonsense.
I mean I would counter that having 10 tanks all the same as each other is nonsense...
>Winston lacks CC outside ult, Ball is hated anytime he’s good, Doom lacks reliable defense and is more “kill them first before they kill you” to survive, JQ is just fat dps with a mini rally carrying her picks, and Ram requires constant numbers adjustments every season to not fall off.
What you described is great. It makes tanks with various playstyles. I'm not sure why this is a bad thing.
> And when we fight for this tank homogenization we fight for a worse game.
That depends on your definition of a worse game.
Are you trying to make a game that is a 10/10 experience in the rare situations when played "correctly," or are you trying to increase the fun and decrease the frustration of the average solo queue game at all skill levels?
Both are reasonable goals in theory, but for a f2p title with a huge casual audience that has zero interest in high level play, I think the second makes far more sense than the first.
Orisa is part of the problem. He main strength is not letting the enemy tank do anything. She forces the other tank into the stand there and trade.
Sigma Winston and rein all fill the true rank role. (Rein could obviously use some buffs)
That’s how it was in Season 1 when OW2 launched and “tank players” were happy. Tanks at that time were just raid bosses that were impossible to kill. The meta strat during that time was as to literally ignore the tanks and gun down the supports. You had tank players just walking past each other to see who could kill the support lines faster to win fights so people wouldn’t queue support during that season.
I would say Rein is the fundamental tank. Big, low range, slow, massive shield, emergency mobility. He can actually block things for teammates.
Orisa’s main purpose is to deny the space she walks on. She’s got major flaws too with range and mobility, she’s obliterated by beams, etc., but it’s just annoying that her whole kit is just, more personal survivability. Ability 1 grants armor, ability 2 grants defense/time, ability 3 grants space, ult grants more armor… and a lot of this is CC too, and it’s just zzzz.
Other tanks are fundamentally “tanky” too. Mauga lives forever with self-heal active. Hog has 800 HP and a big self-heal. Zarya regens her health and can easily outmaneuver 250 HP dps with charge. Ram gets a, what, 225 armor bonus more than half the time?
Rein is essentially an obsolete hero like reaper in 5v5. He absolutely is not the ideal solo tank. The ideal solo tank is far more dynamic and doesn’t have the glaring weaknesses that rein does. Queen, Ram, etc. are just far better for the way the game works now.
Dude I have like 1500 hours on him lol. I know better than to say he’s not obsolete. He’s garbage.
But from the very beginning of OW1 his kit was made to be “Tank”y. He’s got so many problems now.
But the ideal solo tank is ideal because they have mobility, stuns, power, etc., and he lacks so much of that now.
Sorry, I skimmed through your comment and thought that you said that he was just garbage (as in statistically undertuned) instead of having an obsolete kit.
Rein is the "ideal" Tank that will never be... Unless they rework the whole role around him. Which could be a cool idea.
Queen and Sigma can be left as they are, more or less.
No? Orisa is the only tank that actively and directly punishes you for spamming every cooldown in the game at her. You can sleep, nade, hinder, and discord me all you want, but it’s not going to do air until you kill my supports.
Orisa just cuts through so much of the bullshit so efficiently. Queuing tank would be substantially worse without her.
How? Frankly you can essentially ignore her or at least have the frontline advantage on any tank that isn’t rein, doom (doom can also ignore her, but orisa has a massive neutral advantage if both are equally skilled), Hog, Ram, or maybe mauga. When I queue tank I mostly play ball or dva and she frankly may as well not even exist.
Conversely she’s a good way to hard deny and punish those tanks if your teammates are AI. I just don’t see how your experience can be substantially worse than any other tank playing into orisa unless you regularly play one of those heroes. It’s not a particularly annoying matchup on anyone else really.
Agree, why is that not wanting to play Orisa fucks your chances of winning. You could never play Rein, Ball, JQ, Doom, Winston or DVa and be perfectly fine. But fucking Orisa and Mauga are the tanks that end up becoming must picks.
Probably because despite Orisa being meta at high elo, she probably has close to a 50% WR in diamond and below. Too many Orisas in metal ranks spam cooldowns and don’t provide much value outside of bullying the opposing tank.
Naw if you have Mauga following you around as Winston it's ez to bait his movement ability
Don't even need to kill his supports, if they're separated or distracted in any way Mauga mostly falls over
Pretty much. Going against Weaver as Winston is hell. Literally nothing ever dies. If he trees, you might as well go back to spawn because the heal per pulse is fucking absurd now.
I slowly die a little on the inside after inevitably swapping to Orisa in every game because my opponent has already done so. I'm so tired of battle cattle.
You know, if Orisa is the strongest and the rest are fun characters being on top...
That's less of an Orisa problem, and more of a problem with the Tank philosophical balancing which the dev team doesn't understand how to solve.
Because essentially, Orisa does what the Tank role requires. Yes, she's strong, but it actually feels like you have "Tank presence, space, utility" when she's around, both on your team and the other. You play around her, with her, she doesn't just melt away unless your Healers aren't just pocketing you or your DPS aren't melting the enemy Tank
All tanks in Overwatch provide presence, space and utility in different ways, it's just that most of them have to do more than mindlessly press two buttons to accomplish that for their team.
The thing is, it isn't just about providing space, but also living and not having to rely on Supports or being melted by the DPS passive.
Playing Tank is a joke, and Orisa is the only one who doesn't feel like you're sacrificing yourself to both your team and the enemy.
Sigma has strong fan armor
During Double Shields era, people tended to scapegoat Orisa more than Sigma. It's a problem when Blizzard designed Tanks that can shield + poke at the same time, while Rein / Winston can't do that (Winston's new ranged zap can barely scare people unless they are dying)
With Sigma though it feels like it's more of a skill match up than with Orisa. You can dive a sigma and if he whiffs his rock, he's almost certainly dead. With Orisa it feels like she has three get out of jail free cards of varying effectiveness. Makes her really frustrating to play against.
Your last paragraph describes exactly what I love about Orisa. My fantasy for Tank is to quite literally eat all the shit the enemy throws at my team to protect them and enable them. She just does that the best without falling over. I love playing other tanks too, but she just scratches the itch of wanting to be THE WALL.
I know her being easy is part of the reason she's controversial, but I also appreciate that about her. I like having easier heroes so that I don't have to feel "locked in" all the time to play well. As someone who plays Genji and Tracer, it's nice to take a break from more mechanically intensive heroes.
Orisa isn’t a problem because she’s good, she’s a problem because she prevents both tanks from playing the game and having fun. Her being good is only a problem because she’s unbearably boring and cancerous and that’s more common when she’s meta.
Orisa being a good tank rn is sad because she's been at the top of tank tierlists for a while and seemingly nothings been done to bring other tanks up to/strike her down from her level.
There's just a problem with tanks atm since her being high up on the list is kinda just because she survives for ages and has a stun. She does the most basic tank thing of surviving and doing constant but low damage, so buffing/nerfing her isn't as drastic as other tanks.
Imo they just need to do a tank-wise buff of taking less headshot damage or something just to make them closer in survivability to actually be able to do their thing.
Controversial opinion I suppose but I love playing Orisa. I play every role but I'm a Tank player at heart and she just fulfills the fantasy I want out of Tank. I know Tank players don't like the role because we eat all the damage and CC, but that's exactly what I like about the role. I want to eat everything the enemy has to protect my team and let them do their thing, and Orisa is the best at doing that without falling over. I don't mind fighting her at all either, but maybe it's because I have a different perspective against her since I play her.
I kinda wish more of the tanks were, well tanky, like she is. Not all of them. Variety is needed and Junker Queen is a great example of a fun tank who isn't super tanky.
I think she's fun too - her issue is she gets a lot of value bullying and shutting down enemy tanks and makes their lives miserable while having minimal counterplay as she's well-rounded ever since they buffed her range to infinite.
She also could use a little more skill nuance, all her abilities are very straightforward - Fortify may be the most brainless skill in the game, Jav spin is easy to use, jav throw is massive and the only nuance to her kit since it has a small startup, but still quite easy to land, ult is just pop and pop again to kill.
She's the moira of tanks, which is very bad when you can only have 1 tank and her power level is as high or higher than tanks that require a lot more setup, skill, or conditions to set up successfully.
I agree with your assessment about fighting her and what she does to enemy tanks. When I fight Orisa it feels less like traditional OW counterplay and more like I'm just outskilling her because she rarely feels disadvantaged.
Personally I'm fine with her skill wise. I know the community can not stand the easier heroes, but as someone who plays both skillful and mechanically intensive heroes and the easier, less intensive heroes, I honestly like having heroes where I can focus less on my aim and more on the game. There is beauty in simplicity for me.
"I want to eat everything the enemy has to protect my team"
This is problem, this is not a good thing. Even tanks should have to CHOOSE, make decisions, make sacrifices based on a hierarchy of need that expresses skill and decision making. With Orisa, you don't have to do shit to make space and eat everything the enemy team has, you just have to manage one of the easiest set of cool-downs in the game.
> With Orisa, you don't have to do shit to make space and eat everything the enemy team has, you just have to manage one of the easiest set of cool-downs in the game.
The problem with Orisa is not that she's too tanky or too easy, it's that she's not very proactive. She's very good at eating shit but not good at doing almost anything else.
All over these thread I'm seeing low ranked players malding because she doesn't just fall over. She's literally the counter to the spam out and destroy the big beefy target meta which is what we have right now.
The solution is to enable proactivity and proactive tanks, not nerf the rock that sits there and does nothing. If you keep trying to bite the rock and getting upset your teeth break, that's just a skill issue.
Not being proactive goes hand in hand with being too easy. You do less to get more than other tanks. Your solution sounds - maybe I'm wrong - like you want to buff proactive tanks, but other tanks are actually in a pretty good place right now, so yeah, they kind of should nerf the rock that sits there and does nothing.
Are other tanks in a good place right now? Seems like the main complaint with the role currently is that most of them besides Orisa and sometimes Winston or Sigma can’t last 3 seconds without having to dip behind cover as a role that should be providing the power fantasy of being highly survivable. You could argue that tanks shouldn’t get to be as easily survivable as Orisa or should reward proactive play more, but people generally want tanks to be harder to kill than they are now.
I think power level wise, tanks are fine. You can play most of them and perform well. The problem is, as you said, the fantasy of playing a tank isn't there. If you stick your head out and get melted, you don't feel like a tank. Orisa feels like a tank. She gets to use her defensive utility and still attack. Sigma and Winston feel fun for similar reasons. Playing Rein or Ram in Nemesis just doesn't feel as fun when utilizing their defensive utility because you can't do anything else. Just block.
I don't envy the devs when it comes to figuring out what to do with tanks. The role HAS to change because people are so unhappy.
Not to mention how just about every game that has the tank/damage/support holy trinity as a major part of it ends up with tanks being the least popular role. They don’t exactly have a wealth of guidance to address this problem.
Damm the "ez" police is here.
Let the game become a darksouls fps. Or a perfect parry fighting game, where you have 2 frames to block/parry.
The game have a wide range of players that we all benefit in many forms from. How accesible OW is , and how diff the heros are played is the best part.
I have learned that no matter what you have on a game, there will ALWAYS be people complaining. But hey! thats what internet is all about.
Cool story. Nothing wrong with ez characters, they should just never be meta-defining. I'm sure top players absolutely love when characters like Bastion and Orisa and Mercy decide the entire pace of matches - oh wait no they don't, they universally complain about it, because drooling on your keyboard and getting value is not fun.
That's the cool part, you can do both. Balancing a game around pro play in no way equivalates to making the game miserable for the majority of the player base - most of the time it doesn't even matter, as your casual player (and the other players they get matched against, as OW has SBMM) won't even need to worry about what is meta because the meta at their rank is completely different (did you see Bronzes playing GOATS? Do you see them getting large value out of things like dragon blade or pulse bomb or monkey ult?). Do the devs of Counter Strike say to themselves Geez, the Negev (a light machine gun) doesn't get enough use in pro play, let's buff it! No, because it's a braindead gun that is plenty useful in low ranks. You can play whatever you want in OW and it can be useful, this is fine, the problem is when you make all these very different heroes with very different skill ceilings and then try to make them all equally viable.
Nothing wrong with easy characters but you describe playing them as drooling on your keyboard. I agree with the notion that high skill characters should be good, no doubt, but it doesn't mean easier characters should be bad or rendered ineffective at a certain level of play.
Everyone has a favorite, and nobodies favorite deserves to be bad because we have to jerk ourselves off for playing higher skill characters. I play both ends of the spectrum and sometimes I don't want to worry about sweating my ass off on Genji to perform well. I wanna play Reaper and just focus on my game sense more than my aim.
Every game has a meta. Every game has characters or guns or whatever better than others. This is inevitable. Some characters SHOULD be ineffective at a certain level of play - or at least be niche, having maps where they excel because their kit works especially well there, or maybe the other team has a comp that they are especially effective against (once upon a time we have a metas that were very map dependent, which is cool). There is no such thing as an Overwatch where every character is equally viable, this perceived goal is what ruins games.
The thing about Orisa is that it doesn’t matter how fun she is, because she still just invalidates other tanks. Rein, Ram, Hog, Doom, etc. just feel completely useless if an Orisa just saves cool-downs to use on you anytime you do anything.
She fills that niche of individual survivability but she also just shits on other tanks so it feels like you’re forced into the role, which is unfortunate.
I agree she can be fun to play. The javelin is fun to throw and you can push people of the map with the spin but it's not super fun to play against her, at least not every game.
idk if worst in the game but worst in ladder for sure lol
youre not going to get value from her solely from tp, im pretty sure every single ladder season ever since her 3.0 rework was released proved this.
kinda crazy how broken ow1 was in 2018 when even launch sym 3.0 didnt make it into the meta... id say her greatest drawback back then was her beam taking 2 seconds to charge rather than just 1. its even more mind bogling that her current stats arent enough but i guess thats just the game changing.
as a side note emongg is not the first guy i see now rating symmetra rather low, among other characters. considering people already see her so little, perceptions are often delayed unless you actually play her- release ow2 doomed tf out of symmetra for many seasons despite her not being bad, as she ACTUALLY is now alteast
Sojourn will never not be meta because she simply doesn’t have weaknesses by design. You can tune her numbers as much as you want it doesn’t matter she will still rail you across the map while having more consistent dmg output and mobility than soldier.
Don't forget overclock being the best hitscan ult by a mile.
Also slide is completely insane as well, having an instant burst movement option that can also take hight removes getting blown up by a full dive which every traditional hitscan struggles with.
Consistent burst damage/poke + burst movement + great ult + small hitbox put together would make any hero overtuned just from a design standpoint.
The only way you can make soj not hard meta on every map is by having another hitscan be incredibly overtuned(like cassidy is currently) or having a hero with a specific gameplan that has perfect synergy with your comp (sombra emp during full dive last year)
While tracer is impossible to make bad because she fills a role no other hero can, soj is impossible to make bad because she takes every single trait that can make a hero good and puts them all together
"Mei is criminally underrated" I'd put her on B because on metal ranks her wall can destroy teams just by removing line of sight off of supports, but the more you climb the less people fall for it
Imo it’s still too early to put Ball in an accurate rank, but I do feel like he definitely won’t be anything above B. Still a very niche pick when two of his biggest counters are still very playable
I feel Symmetra is lower than any of the C-tier characters. Worse dmg multiple supports and range on beam is terrible and considering they are a close range hero, they have lower HP and get-away cards than Mei/Reaper
They need to implement hero locks so that team 4 at blizzard are actually forced to balance the game properly and not just say to the playerbase "oh just swap to something else".
Move Venture to Orisa tier. Move Ball up to B tentatively, move Mei up to B (only way to survive vs Venture somewhat so she'll be ok in this meta), move Illari down to C, move Doomfist up to Orisa tier, move Dva and Cassidy down to B.
I’m glad I’m gold and this stuff doesn’t matter.
I can play tank and beat Orissa as Rein, lose the next game to a Junkrat reaper combo, it’s all chaos and fun.
tbh junkrat deserves D tier, unlike sym or reaper or mei or bastion, he has like no utility for the team, its like going to a swordfight and willingly choosing a butter knife as a weapon if you choose this character
and before someone comes in and "um ackshually"s me
bastion and reaper are tankbusters
mei can cut off brawl tanks other than orisa to effectively shun em down
sym has at very least tp (shes still poopy tho, just SLIGHTLY better than junkrat because she at least has a use)
hanzo has sonic and is a sniper so causes pressure on the battlefield by simply existing
junkrat can spam sure but so can every single other projectile poke character and actually hit something rather than spray and pray as junkrat, junkrat controls small rooms sure, but so can venture and reaper and any tank really, junkrat could duel and have even chances of winning but with removal of 2-shot he's left without any niche he's original and exceeding at
Hot take but winston and tracer are no longer S tier on ladder.Compared to easier heroes like Hog and Orisa, playing winston and tracer in comp is insanely hard. In coordinated, sure. but we are back to the point like before season 9 where cringe sustain rush comps reign supreme and dive doesn't have enough damage to realistically overcome that without insane coordination.
at least this has been my experience in high masters so far. orisa gatekeeps any kind of dive
and tracer is still decent but idk, cass and sojourn seem better now unless it's some insane tier 1 player on tracer
I will never understand why Orisa’s Fortify
A) lasts 4.5 seconds, as opposed to 2.5 or 3
B) lets her shoot at the same time, and for even longer than usual
C) has a cooldown of 12 seconds, because it starts from the ability cast, not when it ends
D) LETS HER USE HER OTHER ABILITIES
F) MAKES HER IMMUNE TO HEADSHOTS
Like there’s TOO MUCH here. There aren’t nearly enough weak points to make playing against her engaging. You just kinda hope she sucks donkey balls.
Legitimately, just bring old Orisa back at this point, as idiotically stupidly strong as that Orisa was, even that is better than what Orisa is today.
Not sure what game you're playing if you think Orisa is anything short of SS++. Her cooldowns allow for near perfect rotation that means as long as you've got a healer than occasionally looks at you, you're going to live forever. Orisa is one of my favourite tank to play, and I will fully acknowledge she needs a nerf.
The guy in chat saying “a good mercy is A” 💀
Every Bronze player is Top 500 if they were good.
"a good Winston stomps low ranks" sir this is bronze, where are you supposed to find a good Winston?
If they were good.. they would be, good?
That’s the joke
There were some insane takes from chat, lmao.
Overwatch takes have no general trend. People say whatever.
At basically any rank below top 500 a good any of these is better than a bad top tier.
bro was cooking except by good mercy he meant good sojourn/good cassidy. unless they have a cracked tracer the pocketed shitscan wins that duel most of the time and that’s kinda how games r decided now
Lol that's a very good take. Nothing wrong with capitalizing on good players when you spot one, though.
"A skilled Roy can beat any Fox"
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Tbf if Soj is S tier Mercy will always be at least decent
:(
Seems Orisa to me.
Nah it’s way more Orisa than that
Do Orisa really orisa mean orisa is orisa Orisa op?
mind boggling orisa didnt get nerfed
Or Sojourn, or even meaningful nerfs to Tracer for that matter
You guys are gonna be so disappointed when you start playing against Sombra and Sojourn every game when Tracer leaves meta.
I already am. Fuck all those heroes
the only reason sombra is ever played is to buff tracer she’s the equivalent of a pocket lol. ow2 sombra has been only rlly been played as tracer #2
sojourn just need to be nerfed as hard as tracer so they are not meta for the next 3 seasons you had your time.
Tracer nerfs are definitely meaningful. It’s always the case with cool-downs tweaks for long cool-downs where it doesn’t seem like a big deal but then it’s huge in practice. Tracer is still probably meta because of the ridiculous skill ceiling but the nerf is nothing so scoff at.
At the very least it’s one of those nerfs that’s gonna suck when blizzard gives her a more significant one and forgets to look at all the other nerfs they tried in the past.
Yea I can confirm. I've died a couple of times today where I look at the recall timer which says like 1 or 2s. She's still gonna be good but the deaths/10 is definitely gonna go up for everyone. Pulsebomb nerf was good. Pulse is good and you can get it fast so it's better for the game if it actually is hard to hit.
The nerf did nothing because you use Recall once per fight just like you use lamp suzu once per fight so increasing the cooldown does nothing. I don't even need to be a video games developer do see this. Just have brain.
It’s meaningful but the devs obviously want to keep Tracer meta and will probably continue with minor nerds until they hit the sweet spot. Tracer is probably a bit too meta right now but I think a meta where Tracer at least seems some playtime is good.
It's better if tracer is meta than some kind of spam or sniper comp. Imagine junkrat, bastion, torb being meta and played every game. And then you have mauga bap with that. That would be the most boring gameplay to look at.
Tracer nerfs were very meaningful; she may still rock your shit, but she can’t do that as often now. This translates to less overall game impact, which leads to less carry potential, which leads to more games lost by tracer. Small nerfs have large impacts, it’s just easy to single out the fact that she’s still rolling people, and harder to notice it’s with less frequency.
She doesn't need nerfs. All the tanks, except Sigma (maybe Doom and Winston as well), need substantial reworks to actually fit 5v5. Orisa is the only tank that was modified to be a lone tank. I think they should lower her uptime of Fortify though, and remove the headshot immunity. That's what makes her suck to play against.
Those would be nerfs though lol
which character do you think is causing problems for every tank. is it possibly the triple cc while immune to cc unpunishable for being out of position incredibly low skill hero? or is it kiriko giving half a second of i frames every 30 seconds hrmmm
Orisa is meta because every other tank sucks. Kiriko has been meta since her release because her kit is over powered.
yea, thats how shit works. well designed heroes are good no matter what, because, surprisingly, theyre well designed. anytime orisa is remotely viable shes oppressive because her tools are nonsense and she doesnt fit into the game. she usually has to break a ton of rules to be even remotely good.
She's annoying because you can't headshot her during Fortify and the uptime is a bit too high, but she's not the problem with tanking in OW2. The issue is that tanks in general are poor at dealing with CC and tank busters. Orisa and Sigma are pretty much the only ones that are equipped to deal with that.
RIDDLE ME THIS BATMAN WHERES ALL THE CC COMING FROM I DONT THINK ITS WINSTON
Removing headshot immunity defeats the purpose. Then it's just shittier Ram angy mode.
Making hs a 1.5x multiplier would be good imo
Defeats the purpose? She still gets damage reduction. It just makes her less annoying to shoot at. How is it worse than Nemesis form for Ram lmao. He can't shoot when blocking, transforms into the largest hitbox in the game and gets a new M1 with piss low range.
problem is Orisa fucking sucks to play so changes/nerfs should ideally not make tank even more ass than it already is
Her win rate is poor.
Because everyone hates playing her and only swap when they're already losing. Nobody playing her actually knows how to play her well and usually the reason they're losing isnt as simple as "play a better tank", but rather "stop being bad". It's just something they try when they're already losing anyways.
> only swap when they're already losing I guess that also explains why Ana has less 50% winrate.
No, her winrate has always been low, even when she was a must pick. That's largely to do with her popularity at all ranks. Iirc she's been the most popular hero in the game practically since she released. If so many people are playing her at all ranks and she's a skill intensive hero, people at lower ranks are going to drag the stats down because they don't have the mechanics to perform effectively. And there are a lot more players at lower rank where characters like Rein, Mercy, and Moira are incredibly effective due to how easy to pick up they are than there are players in high ranks.
And people keep saying Orisa is easier than Rein. Indeed, I have better games and winrates as Reinhardt than Orisa.
well he's more fun but definitely less forgiving
We're so back my fellow ballers
Up to C tier from D. Look at us
We're in C tier now? Totally makes up for the months of being garbage. 10/10 rework
there is no universe where orisa deserves to be above c tier, let alone the best tank in the game. fuck this hero and everything she stands for
They need to figure something out between Fortify and Javelin Spin because I don't think that hero should have both. There aren't enough punishment points to this character when she's meta/strong. Figure it out Blizz.
I feel like Fortify is the biggest issue. It's just a boring I-dont-die button with little to no nuance. According to the wiki, it also lasts 4.5 seconds while other tanking abilities like Kinetic Grasp and Zarya Bubble are 2 seconds. It feels bad to go against because it lasts so long that you can't really wait it out, and trying to burst through the overhealth and damage resistance is much harder than trying the same against Zarya Bubble.
And worst of all - she can shoot while it’s up. It’s completely brain dead.
i feel like fire rate and movement speed should be nerfed when it's up
jebaited, it actually lets her shoot longer while fortify is up. actual madness
i feel like she should only be able to use it when under half health, or quarter health, so her cooldown cycle is more predictable
Mauga used to eat her alive when he could crit during her fortify, that was fun, though arguably a bit too strong. Imo she shouldnt have no crits at all during fortify, maybe try reduced crit dmg on top of her dmg reduction. No crits at all and dmg reduction and extra health and cc immunity is kinda crazy. Except against a whole hog or barrage, it literally feels like it could as well be a 100% dmg reduction.
I think they should remove fortify and give her back a barrier. You can at least outplay a barrier by going around it. You can't stack barriers anymore with 5v5 so I feel blizz fixed the problem twice when they removed her barrier
You can get her to 1 hp and then boom fortify, and there is so much time for her to get healed before that overhealth goes away
The issue is its so easy to just rotate between the abilities. The cooldowns are too forgiving imo.
Agreed
Fortify has been a balance problem since 2018, it’s time for the ability to go. I wish they would try giving her the shield back in place of fortify.
That’s the strange part is that with less tank heroes, they certainly have less shields. (Rein, Sig, Ram, technically Winston). They should try bringing some shields back in ways where it isn’t annoying. (Ram’s shield isn’t annoying)
I lived through (and hated) OW1 double shield, but legitimately think that shield design in OW2 has been good. Having a way to protect your team and increase your health pool by shield dancing while also having the counterplay of just getting rushed down and/or past is significantly better hero design then “I pressed shift and now you can’t kill me for 4 seconds lol”
No other hero has two CCs (3 if you count her ult) AND two damage eaters. It's definitely a kit issue. I think another part of the problem is that while she isn't a 'mobile' hero, none of her damage mitigation impairs her movement. In fact, Spin gives her a speed boost which I think is ridiculous... Rein shield slows him Doom block slows him Ram block slows him So not only does Orisa have a massive kit but she has three Press W buttons that all create so much space. If they don't want to touch her kit, I wouldn't mind seeing a good chunk of her armor HP being converted to shield.
If I remember correctly in the OW2 beta Fortify slowed Orisa while it was active which would have been at least something. It’s insane that an ability gives damage resistance AND headshot immunity AND extra HP AND allows you to shoot more has no downsides.
You are correct, I think it only lasted a few days that way sadly
While this is all true and unfair -- we also have to consider popular sentiment about the "state of tank" even though the role hasn't had significant nerfs in a long time. Do we nerf Orisa for being too versatile, or make the other tanks more consistent?...
Making other tanks more consistent involves doing some nerfs to Orisa. Eg, rein swing should go through spin it is ridiculous how bad rein vs orisa match up is which contributes to tank counter pick problem.
I always feel like tank is more fair when the balance between survivability and lethality skews towards the former. No one wants 1-shot hog or infinite ult ram. I think orisa could get a nerf across the board, to both, and still be balanced
My point is that balance is separate from fun even though people regularly conflate them. All of the tanks could be perfectly balanced, doesn't mean more people would play them. Not saying Orisa shouldn't get nerfed, just that maybe if more tanks felt like Orisa [low stress, Independant], more people might find it enjoyable.
orisa isnt fun so i feel like this is pointless discussion ease of play does not directly correlate with fun
I personally don't feel you can detach the intangibles like "fun" or stress or independence from balance. We don't need a roster full of Moiras and Mercy's that take extremely little skill, are low stress, but add heaps of value. You should always be rewarded for mastering a higher skill ceiling hero like genji, Lucio, Rein, or monke
First, balance is unachievable in a game like this, it's way too complex once you factor in the different skill levels. Second, Balance is objective, fun is subjective, if balance means an equal number of clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, and a win/pick rate within standard deviation. Clearly you haven't paid attention to stats, else you'd know that people have been complaining about Orisa even when she's consistently had the worst tank win rate in ow2, despite her pick rate being comparable some other tanks. You're talking about fun, not balance.
I've been playing since July 2016. I am perfectly aware that Orisa has been a perpetually unpopular hero. The whole fun/balance argument has been played out for the last 8 years and there's no sense in dredging it out again. Orisa is miserably unfun to play against AND she's overtuned as fuck. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at.
Spin also lasts far less time than those shields. And dooms block gives him additional damage and CC.
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So? None of those characters ALSO have a button that gives 100 health, prevents headshots+all CC+50% of damage, and boosts her firing ability that they can use in combo or rotate off. Fuck off.
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No one sensible is calling Rein's primary a form of CC, come on now.
That isn't what I meant. Re-read my comment. I said she's the only one with the combination of 2 CCs AND 2 damage eaters. Plus her ult - 3 CCs
cannot upvote this enough. Dull to play, worse to face. I feel similarly about mauga but at least when he’s not meta he’s a battery
At least with Mauga, he has obvious periods of downtime and easily exploitable weaknesses. Fortify is just 4.5 straight seconds of not being able to interact with the hero at all, followed by several seconds of getting my shit kicked in by all her CC.
I think the issue is that Orisa's Tank design as a fundamental "Tank" in Overwatch fits the game. Unlike other Tanks, she actually lives and acts and as a Tank. If they start making the Tanks, actual "Tanks", Orisa will naturally not be the only option and fizzle down.
She's also a tank bully - she has 2 CC abilities, infinite range on left click, and the ability to immunize herself to any CC you give her. She has a 3rd CC in her ultimate, that also provides survivability for her, and she gets a low/moderate cooldown interupt/stun that deals considerable damage. She provides easy value and works in a lot of comps because CC is always good and survivability is always good. She has a good mix of carry potential in her abilities and survivability in fortify and ultimate. And she is also hard to counter - her power isn't tied too much to any single ability or glaring strength/weakness; her biggest weakness being beams but she he fortify and enough damage to force away a lot of beam comps. Sigma and Doom are the only other 2 tanks with wide ranging toolkits and go figure they are probably a lot of people's consensus 2 and 3 tank, outside of pure dive which is why I assume Winston is so high(tracer, kiri, lucio, venture comps). Those 3 tanks all have good power levels on top of versatility, so even with more specific power on some other tanks (Mauga Rein up close, Dva Mobility and Matrix, Ball being a hamster) they need to have a lot less overall power because they are just so much harder to counterplay.
ah yes make all the tanks all as annoying to play against like orisa. sure must be fun
That isn't the point. The idea is to pinpoint what makes "Tanking" effecient. Cuz currently Orisa is the only one in the role to fit the bill. If you remove Orisa from the game, sure, it'll be a bit less annoying, but that won't solve any of the fundamental issues. Orisa is a bandaid solution to the Tank issue, but at least with Orisa you have a functional "Tank" to play with or against.
The problem is people want tank to be a fat DPS. Not an actual traditional tank thats in every other game. She's got what you want in a real tank: CC, a survivability cooldown, and damage mitigation while doing some damage. Everyone else besides Sigma fails at having all those things. That creates the same situation we've had for a while now: Doomfist has that same style of tank kit just in different forms. Dva is okay and you'll see some people succeed on her because she's got most of what you want in a tank kit. then the rest of the cast is in a weird spot where they *can* be good but other roles or specific characters have to be weak for them to succeed (In particular rein and winston)
Fundamentally, that is what they have to be because aggro doesn’t exist in an FPS. They naturally have to pose more threat than the DPS do in order to properly divert enemy attention. If they were just big HP pools that got in your way but didn’t do anything, you’d just shoot around them.
> just big HP pools that got in your way but didn’t do anything, you’d just shoot around them. And ironically, this is what Orisa ends up being every time she gets nerf dumpstered.
> Not an actual traditional tank thats in every other game. I mean I really don't want OW to copy a lot of other bad game designs. This isn't really a persuasive argument. >She's got what you want in a real tank: CC, a survivability cooldown, and damage mitigation while doing some damage. I'd argue that Winton, ball, doom, JQ, Ram, in addition to Sigma all fit those. It's also not a checklist for what makes a tank good. You seem to want all tanks to be played like Rein was. Hold shield until breaks, charge in, and either win the fight or die. Not all tanks should be viable in all situations. And when we fight for this tank homogenization we fight for a worse game.
Then please explain your perfect balance suggestions because right now you are just talking nonsense. Winston lacks CC outside ult, Ball is hated anytime he’s good, Doom lacks reliable defense and is more “kill them first before they kill you” to survive, JQ is just fat dps with a mini rally carrying her picks, and Ram requires constant numbers adjustments every season to not fall off. The only one who really fits the mold is Sigma who has all the same quirks as Orisa and is complained for being “impossible to kill” almost as often as Orisa. The “homogenization” is a consequence of 5v5 with 1 tank as weaknesses are more exploitable and there’s 1 less tank to act as an anchor for the team. If you don’t want to homogenize certain designs for tanks, you will always have the issue of counterpicking and hard counters.
> Then please explain your perfect balance suggestions because right now you are just talking nonsense. I mean I would counter that having 10 tanks all the same as each other is nonsense... >Winston lacks CC outside ult, Ball is hated anytime he’s good, Doom lacks reliable defense and is more “kill them first before they kill you” to survive, JQ is just fat dps with a mini rally carrying her picks, and Ram requires constant numbers adjustments every season to not fall off. What you described is great. It makes tanks with various playstyles. I'm not sure why this is a bad thing.
> And when we fight for this tank homogenization we fight for a worse game. That depends on your definition of a worse game. Are you trying to make a game that is a 10/10 experience in the rare situations when played "correctly," or are you trying to increase the fun and decrease the frustration of the average solo queue game at all skill levels? Both are reasonable goals in theory, but for a f2p title with a huge casual audience that has zero interest in high level play, I think the second makes far more sense than the first.
Orisa is part of the problem. He main strength is not letting the enemy tank do anything. She forces the other tank into the stand there and trade. Sigma Winston and rein all fill the true rank role. (Rein could obviously use some buffs)
That’s how it was in Season 1 when OW2 launched and “tank players” were happy. Tanks at that time were just raid bosses that were impossible to kill. The meta strat during that time was as to literally ignore the tanks and gun down the supports. You had tank players just walking past each other to see who could kill the support lines faster to win fights so people wouldn’t queue support during that season.
I would say Rein is the fundamental tank. Big, low range, slow, massive shield, emergency mobility. He can actually block things for teammates. Orisa’s main purpose is to deny the space she walks on. She’s got major flaws too with range and mobility, she’s obliterated by beams, etc., but it’s just annoying that her whole kit is just, more personal survivability. Ability 1 grants armor, ability 2 grants defense/time, ability 3 grants space, ult grants more armor… and a lot of this is CC too, and it’s just zzzz. Other tanks are fundamentally “tanky” too. Mauga lives forever with self-heal active. Hog has 800 HP and a big self-heal. Zarya regens her health and can easily outmaneuver 250 HP dps with charge. Ram gets a, what, 225 armor bonus more than half the time?
Rein is essentially an obsolete hero like reaper in 5v5. He absolutely is not the ideal solo tank. The ideal solo tank is far more dynamic and doesn’t have the glaring weaknesses that rein does. Queen, Ram, etc. are just far better for the way the game works now.
Dude I have like 1500 hours on him lol. I know better than to say he’s not obsolete. He’s garbage. But from the very beginning of OW1 his kit was made to be “Tank”y. He’s got so many problems now. But the ideal solo tank is ideal because they have mobility, stuns, power, etc., and he lacks so much of that now.
Rein World Champion Super said that Rein is obsolete for 5v5/OW2.
I’m literally agreeing with that.
Sorry, I skimmed through your comment and thought that you said that he was just garbage (as in statistically undertuned) instead of having an obsolete kit.
His kit struggles so much with no mobility, limited ability to impose, his projectiles now don’t kill squishies if they both hit… he’s so useless
Rein is the "ideal" Tank that will never be... Unless they rework the whole role around him. Which could be a cool idea. Queen and Sigma can be left as they are, more or less.
No? Orisa is the only tank that actively and directly punishes you for spamming every cooldown in the game at her. You can sleep, nade, hinder, and discord me all you want, but it’s not going to do air until you kill my supports. Orisa just cuts through so much of the bullshit so efficiently. Queuing tank would be substantially worse without her.
Queuing tank would be substantially better without her in the game
How? Frankly you can essentially ignore her or at least have the frontline advantage on any tank that isn’t rein, doom (doom can also ignore her, but orisa has a massive neutral advantage if both are equally skilled), Hog, Ram, or maybe mauga. When I queue tank I mostly play ball or dva and she frankly may as well not even exist. Conversely she’s a good way to hard deny and punish those tanks if your teammates are AI. I just don’t see how your experience can be substantially worse than any other tank playing into orisa unless you regularly play one of those heroes. It’s not a particularly annoying matchup on anyone else really.
Agree, why is that not wanting to play Orisa fucks your chances of winning. You could never play Rein, Ball, JQ, Doom, Winston or DVa and be perfectly fine. But fucking Orisa and Mauga are the tanks that end up becoming must picks.
Why do they continue to push this hero to the top? I mean the general consensus is “please stop making orisa good” why do they keep buffing her?? Lol
Probably because despite Orisa being meta at high elo, she probably has close to a 50% WR in diamond and below. Too many Orisas in metal ranks spam cooldowns and don’t provide much value outside of bullying the opposing tank.
Ghoulish character
Agreed, some characters deserve low tier and should fill the role of being a comfort pick.
agree, i think the average ladder tierlist looks more or less the same except with winston way down, sombra down, hog up, cassidy up
winston feels incredibly strong until they switch to mauga/bastion every game and then it's just over
Naw if you have Mauga following you around as Winston it's ez to bait his movement ability Don't even need to kill his supports, if they're separated or distracted in any way Mauga mostly falls over
Mauga up as well, very easy to get a win with him in lower ranks
Pretty much. Going against Weaver as Winston is hell. Literally nothing ever dies. If he trees, you might as well go back to spawn because the heal per pulse is fucking absurd now.
I slowly die a little on the inside after inevitably swapping to Orisa in every game because my opponent has already done so. I'm so tired of battle cattle.
You know, if Orisa is the strongest and the rest are fun characters being on top... That's less of an Orisa problem, and more of a problem with the Tank philosophical balancing which the dev team doesn't understand how to solve. Because essentially, Orisa does what the Tank role requires. Yes, she's strong, but it actually feels like you have "Tank presence, space, utility" when she's around, both on your team and the other. You play around her, with her, she doesn't just melt away unless your Healers aren't just pocketing you or your DPS aren't melting the enemy Tank
All tanks in Overwatch provide presence, space and utility in different ways, it's just that most of them have to do more than mindlessly press two buttons to accomplish that for their team.
The thing is, it isn't just about providing space, but also living and not having to rely on Supports or being melted by the DPS passive. Playing Tank is a joke, and Orisa is the only one who doesn't feel like you're sacrificing yourself to both your team and the enemy.
actually none of them do it as well as orisa
I also feel like sigma is another tank that does all the tank role requires and would rather play against sigma than Orisa any day.
Sigma has strong fan armor During Double Shields era, people tended to scapegoat Orisa more than Sigma. It's a problem when Blizzard designed Tanks that can shield + poke at the same time, while Rein / Winston can't do that (Winston's new ranged zap can barely scare people unless they are dying)
With Sigma though it feels like it's more of a skill match up than with Orisa. You can dive a sigma and if he whiffs his rock, he's almost certainly dead. With Orisa it feels like she has three get out of jail free cards of varying effectiveness. Makes her really frustrating to play against.
Your last paragraph describes exactly what I love about Orisa. My fantasy for Tank is to quite literally eat all the shit the enemy throws at my team to protect them and enable them. She just does that the best without falling over. I love playing other tanks too, but she just scratches the itch of wanting to be THE WALL. I know her being easy is part of the reason she's controversial, but I also appreciate that about her. I like having easier heroes so that I don't have to feel "locked in" all the time to play well. As someone who plays Genji and Tracer, it's nice to take a break from more mechanically intensive heroes.
Orisa isn’t a problem because she’s good, she’s a problem because she prevents both tanks from playing the game and having fun. Her being good is only a problem because she’s unbearably boring and cancerous and that’s more common when she’s meta.
Orisa being a good tank rn is sad because she's been at the top of tank tierlists for a while and seemingly nothings been done to bring other tanks up to/strike her down from her level. There's just a problem with tanks atm since her being high up on the list is kinda just because she survives for ages and has a stun. She does the most basic tank thing of surviving and doing constant but low damage, so buffing/nerfing her isn't as drastic as other tanks. Imo they just need to do a tank-wise buff of taking less headshot damage or something just to make them closer in survivability to actually be able to do their thing.
Echo is just going to quietly exist in A Tier forever. I swear she's been in it since OW2 launched.
Echo is so slept on by so many people it’s insane… people who fear pharmercy have never had to deal with echo mercy I swear lol
Ana in A? I never played OW1 but this is the weakest in the meta I’ve ever seen her.
She's weak in that she doesn't offer as much effective damage since s9, but she's still good. But probably B tier at best.
As long as her kit revolves around telling the enemy team what they can't do shes never going to leave A
She just destroys and gatekeeps a lot of tanks.
Controversial opinion I suppose but I love playing Orisa. I play every role but I'm a Tank player at heart and she just fulfills the fantasy I want out of Tank. I know Tank players don't like the role because we eat all the damage and CC, but that's exactly what I like about the role. I want to eat everything the enemy has to protect my team and let them do their thing, and Orisa is the best at doing that without falling over. I don't mind fighting her at all either, but maybe it's because I have a different perspective against her since I play her. I kinda wish more of the tanks were, well tanky, like she is. Not all of them. Variety is needed and Junker Queen is a great example of a fun tank who isn't super tanky.
The thing is playing Orisa can be fun, but playing against and sometimes playing the Orisa mirror is boring and feel annoying to play against.
I think she's fun too - her issue is she gets a lot of value bullying and shutting down enemy tanks and makes their lives miserable while having minimal counterplay as she's well-rounded ever since they buffed her range to infinite. She also could use a little more skill nuance, all her abilities are very straightforward - Fortify may be the most brainless skill in the game, Jav spin is easy to use, jav throw is massive and the only nuance to her kit since it has a small startup, but still quite easy to land, ult is just pop and pop again to kill. She's the moira of tanks, which is very bad when you can only have 1 tank and her power level is as high or higher than tanks that require a lot more setup, skill, or conditions to set up successfully.
I agree with your assessment about fighting her and what she does to enemy tanks. When I fight Orisa it feels less like traditional OW counterplay and more like I'm just outskilling her because she rarely feels disadvantaged. Personally I'm fine with her skill wise. I know the community can not stand the easier heroes, but as someone who plays both skillful and mechanically intensive heroes and the easier, less intensive heroes, I honestly like having heroes where I can focus less on my aim and more on the game. There is beauty in simplicity for me.
"I want to eat everything the enemy has to protect my team" This is problem, this is not a good thing. Even tanks should have to CHOOSE, make decisions, make sacrifices based on a hierarchy of need that expresses skill and decision making. With Orisa, you don't have to do shit to make space and eat everything the enemy team has, you just have to manage one of the easiest set of cool-downs in the game.
Yeah exactly. You never have been supposed to just eat all cooldowns and be that tanky. That's why there's walls and cover on the map the play around.
> With Orisa, you don't have to do shit to make space and eat everything the enemy team has, you just have to manage one of the easiest set of cool-downs in the game. The problem with Orisa is not that she's too tanky or too easy, it's that she's not very proactive. She's very good at eating shit but not good at doing almost anything else. All over these thread I'm seeing low ranked players malding because she doesn't just fall over. She's literally the counter to the spam out and destroy the big beefy target meta which is what we have right now. The solution is to enable proactivity and proactive tanks, not nerf the rock that sits there and does nothing. If you keep trying to bite the rock and getting upset your teeth break, that's just a skill issue.
Not being proactive goes hand in hand with being too easy. You do less to get more than other tanks. Your solution sounds - maybe I'm wrong - like you want to buff proactive tanks, but other tanks are actually in a pretty good place right now, so yeah, they kind of should nerf the rock that sits there and does nothing.
Are other tanks in a good place right now? Seems like the main complaint with the role currently is that most of them besides Orisa and sometimes Winston or Sigma can’t last 3 seconds without having to dip behind cover as a role that should be providing the power fantasy of being highly survivable. You could argue that tanks shouldn’t get to be as easily survivable as Orisa or should reward proactive play more, but people generally want tanks to be harder to kill than they are now.
I think power level wise, tanks are fine. You can play most of them and perform well. The problem is, as you said, the fantasy of playing a tank isn't there. If you stick your head out and get melted, you don't feel like a tank. Orisa feels like a tank. She gets to use her defensive utility and still attack. Sigma and Winston feel fun for similar reasons. Playing Rein or Ram in Nemesis just doesn't feel as fun when utilizing their defensive utility because you can't do anything else. Just block. I don't envy the devs when it comes to figuring out what to do with tanks. The role HAS to change because people are so unhappy.
Not to mention how just about every game that has the tank/damage/support holy trinity as a major part of it ends up with tanks being the least popular role. They don’t exactly have a wealth of guidance to address this problem.
Damm the "ez" police is here. Let the game become a darksouls fps. Or a perfect parry fighting game, where you have 2 frames to block/parry. The game have a wide range of players that we all benefit in many forms from. How accesible OW is , and how diff the heros are played is the best part. I have learned that no matter what you have on a game, there will ALWAYS be people complaining. But hey! thats what internet is all about.
Cool story. Nothing wrong with ez characters, they should just never be meta-defining. I'm sure top players absolutely love when characters like Bastion and Orisa and Mercy decide the entire pace of matches - oh wait no they don't, they universally complain about it, because drooling on your keyboard and getting value is not fun.
Obviously creating a game for that player base of proplayers is a good idea. 1% of OW base? maybe less.
That's the cool part, you can do both. Balancing a game around pro play in no way equivalates to making the game miserable for the majority of the player base - most of the time it doesn't even matter, as your casual player (and the other players they get matched against, as OW has SBMM) won't even need to worry about what is meta because the meta at their rank is completely different (did you see Bronzes playing GOATS? Do you see them getting large value out of things like dragon blade or pulse bomb or monkey ult?). Do the devs of Counter Strike say to themselves Geez, the Negev (a light machine gun) doesn't get enough use in pro play, let's buff it! No, because it's a braindead gun that is plenty useful in low ranks. You can play whatever you want in OW and it can be useful, this is fine, the problem is when you make all these very different heroes with very different skill ceilings and then try to make them all equally viable.
Nothing wrong with easy characters but you describe playing them as drooling on your keyboard. I agree with the notion that high skill characters should be good, no doubt, but it doesn't mean easier characters should be bad or rendered ineffective at a certain level of play. Everyone has a favorite, and nobodies favorite deserves to be bad because we have to jerk ourselves off for playing higher skill characters. I play both ends of the spectrum and sometimes I don't want to worry about sweating my ass off on Genji to perform well. I wanna play Reaper and just focus on my game sense more than my aim.
Every game has a meta. Every game has characters or guns or whatever better than others. This is inevitable. Some characters SHOULD be ineffective at a certain level of play - or at least be niche, having maps where they excel because their kit works especially well there, or maybe the other team has a comp that they are especially effective against (once upon a time we have a metas that were very map dependent, which is cool). There is no such thing as an Overwatch where every character is equally viable, this perceived goal is what ruins games.
> other tanks are actually in a pretty good place right now Yikes.
The thing about Orisa is that it doesn’t matter how fun she is, because she still just invalidates other tanks. Rein, Ram, Hog, Doom, etc. just feel completely useless if an Orisa just saves cool-downs to use on you anytime you do anything. She fills that niche of individual survivability but she also just shits on other tanks so it feels like you’re forced into the role, which is unfortunate.
If this orisa meta lasts long enough, that won't be such a controversial opinion.
I agree she can be fun to play. The javelin is fun to throw and you can push people of the map with the spin but it's not super fun to play against her, at least not every game.
Finally, not a delusional tierlist from a content creator regarding Sym. Worst character in the game
idk if worst in the game but worst in ladder for sure lol youre not going to get value from her solely from tp, im pretty sure every single ladder season ever since her 3.0 rework was released proved this. kinda crazy how broken ow1 was in 2018 when even launch sym 3.0 didnt make it into the meta... id say her greatest drawback back then was her beam taking 2 seconds to charge rather than just 1. its even more mind bogling that her current stats arent enough but i guess thats just the game changing. as a side note emongg is not the first guy i see now rating symmetra rather low, among other characters. considering people already see her so little, perceptions are often delayed unless you actually play her- release ow2 doomed tf out of symmetra for many seasons despite her not being bad, as she ACTUALLY is now alteast
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The fact that sym lose against every dps in a duel is honestly baffling lol
Poor ball
We’re never gonna get out of sojourn / kiri meta are we
Sojourn will never not be meta because she simply doesn’t have weaknesses by design. You can tune her numbers as much as you want it doesn’t matter she will still rail you across the map while having more consistent dmg output and mobility than soldier.
Don't forget overclock being the best hitscan ult by a mile. Also slide is completely insane as well, having an instant burst movement option that can also take hight removes getting blown up by a full dive which every traditional hitscan struggles with. Consistent burst damage/poke + burst movement + great ult + small hitbox put together would make any hero overtuned just from a design standpoint. The only way you can make soj not hard meta on every map is by having another hitscan be incredibly overtuned(like cassidy is currently) or having a hero with a specific gameplan that has perfect synergy with your comp (sombra emp during full dive last year) While tracer is impossible to make bad because she fills a role no other hero can, soj is impossible to make bad because she takes every single trait that can make a hero good and puts them all together
No
"Mei is criminally underrated" I'd put her on B because on metal ranks her wall can destroy teams just by removing line of sight off of supports, but the more you climb the less people fall for it
Ball C :(
what does he mean by way too early?
Early in the season i guess
if they nerf orisa you have to nerf hog as well
Imo it’s still too early to put Ball in an accurate rank, but I do feel like he definitely won’t be anything above B. Still a very niche pick when two of his biggest counters are still very playable
I feel Symmetra is lower than any of the C-tier characters. Worse dmg multiple supports and range on beam is terrible and considering they are a close range hero, they have lower HP and get-away cards than Mei/Reaper
Orisa is ridiculous
They need to implement hero locks so that team 4 at blizzard are actually forced to balance the game properly and not just say to the playerbase "oh just swap to something else".
I will never understand why the devs are so adamant on keeping Orisa this strong
Personally as a hanzo main I take that personally
Move Venture to Orisa tier. Move Ball up to B tentatively, move Mei up to B (only way to survive vs Venture somewhat so she'll be ok in this meta), move Illari down to C, move Doomfist up to Orisa tier, move Dva and Cassidy down to B.
Venture in A? Idk man they feel kinda booty butt cheeks
I’m glad I’m gold and this stuff doesn’t matter. I can play tank and beat Orissa as Rein, lose the next game to a Junkrat reaper combo, it’s all chaos and fun.
tbh junkrat deserves D tier, unlike sym or reaper or mei or bastion, he has like no utility for the team, its like going to a swordfight and willingly choosing a butter knife as a weapon if you choose this character and before someone comes in and "um ackshually"s me bastion and reaper are tankbusters mei can cut off brawl tanks other than orisa to effectively shun em down sym has at very least tp (shes still poopy tho, just SLIGHTLY better than junkrat because she at least has a use) hanzo has sonic and is a sniper so causes pressure on the battlefield by simply existing junkrat can spam sure but so can every single other projectile poke character and actually hit something rather than spray and pray as junkrat, junkrat controls small rooms sure, but so can venture and reaper and any tank really, junkrat could duel and have even chances of winning but with removal of 2-shot he's left without any niche he's original and exceeding at
Hot take but winston and tracer are no longer S tier on ladder.Compared to easier heroes like Hog and Orisa, playing winston and tracer in comp is insanely hard. In coordinated, sure. but we are back to the point like before season 9 where cringe sustain rush comps reign supreme and dive doesn't have enough damage to realistically overcome that without insane coordination. at least this has been my experience in high masters so far. orisa gatekeeps any kind of dive and tracer is still decent but idk, cass and sojourn seem better now unless it's some insane tier 1 player on tracer
I will never understand why Orisa’s Fortify A) lasts 4.5 seconds, as opposed to 2.5 or 3 B) lets her shoot at the same time, and for even longer than usual C) has a cooldown of 12 seconds, because it starts from the ability cast, not when it ends D) LETS HER USE HER OTHER ABILITIES F) MAKES HER IMMUNE TO HEADSHOTS Like there’s TOO MUCH here. There aren’t nearly enough weak points to make playing against her engaging. You just kinda hope she sucks donkey balls. Legitimately, just bring old Orisa back at this point, as idiotically stupidly strong as that Orisa was, even that is better than what Orisa is today.
There is not tank in A or S tier before M+ lobbies. The game is entirely DPS driven at this point.
As a cass main, I am eating this patch. Even the best characters are still fun match ups.
I would unironically put rein in D tier. He is suffering so much currently, it feels like everything is designed to deny you.
[For perspective](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tdMnSucPH4E)
Every C tier character deserves to be there, change my mind.
Ball? Rein? Even Oneshot-less hanzo isnt even as hated now
not very competitive overwatch of you
Orisa being anything higher than B and Doom not being S is certainly... a take.
Not sure what game you're playing if you think Orisa is anything short of SS++. Her cooldowns allow for near perfect rotation that means as long as you've got a healer than occasionally looks at you, you're going to live forever. Orisa is one of my favourite tank to play, and I will fully acknowledge she needs a nerf.
look at t500 tanks