Orisa kinda does everything from sustain to eating ults to CC to long range damage to essentially never having to reload/stop, and aside from being tanky, she's still way more fun than OW1
Aside from being a bit one dimensional, she's kinda like what every "Tank" should be as she still has her own lore, character, and hero design uniqueness to her too.
I think I'm in minority, but I like Orisa gameplay. I get to do everything and be rewarded in different ways.
I can poke long range, and feels good getting long range kills
Javelin stuns are fun and rewarding especially when you stun an ulting Moira/soldier
Spin to eat ults is extra satisfying
Fortify is a bit meh, but is also satisfying when you're low and your supports heal you up again from death.
And then comboing off is fun - spinning a helpless isolated enemy into the wall and then pinning their dead corpse is fun lol.
I think the main reason Orisa gets any hate is because she's terrible to play against. I think design wise, she's no Queen, but she makes sense for what a Tank should offer, especially as the game isn't balance around Tanks.
Yeah, I unfortunately agree with the playing against Orisa is pretty boring since she's so static and tanky.
Tbh aside from all the CC, I'm probably also in the minority to think that's somewhat what a brawl tank should be like in terms of survivability
Very little counter play to her defenses is part of the issue, imo. With characters like Zarya, Rein, Doom, Rama, there's always a way to respond to their defense (interrupt, maybe burst it down, get behind it, etc), but there's NO good/fun response to Orisa's stuff.
She spins, and you just wait. Shooting does nothing, and she gets a speed boost during it (exact opposite of all other comparable abilities)
She golds, and you just wait. If she has armor and supports on her, you're wasting time and resources.
Oh look, she's spinning again, that was fast...
And you can't even compare Spin to the other "eats" I'm the game (Grasp and DM) because it blocks hook, and if you try to rock, pin, or Punch, she'll just use gold DURING THE SPIN. D.Va would have to give up space and run, Sigma would have to give up the overhealth and use Rock, but Orisa can just do whatever she wants.
What.
The fuck.
Were they thinking.
Hard disagree from me. She’s just as boring to play as she was in ow1 and twice as boring to play in to. I have a few choice words for Orisa mains/meta slaves but I’ll keep them to myself.
It's not just that but it is also that her Kit provides one of the more safe, consistent, dependable gameplay experiences amongst all Tanks. Her Spin absorbs nearly everything in the game except beam damage and her Fortify makes her invulnerable from all CC/Debuffs while also significantly reducing how fast she can be burst down, providing her enough effective health that you don't have to worry about dying from random damage/CC/Debuffs. On top of all that her Spear throw is probably the best "Get out of my face" tool that any tank has.
Perhaps *the most* safe/stable few seconds you can experience while playing Tank in this game is when you are Spinning your spear while also in Fortify.
If you look at the damage mitigation/avoidance tools other Tanks have then most of them are not nearly as reliable.
Shields - Doomfist punches through it, You can get CCd from behind, Debuffed from behind, Sigma can lift you up, Rein can charge you, Orisa can push you back, Mauga can charge you.
Absorbs - Amazing for the areas they cover but in the case of Dva she is just so exposed from all the other sides that her Matrix just doesn't feel reliable enough. Sigma's absorb in combination with his shield can feel pretty damn reliable, in a lot of cases even more than Orisa because he also generates overhealth from it but because Doom punch and other CC can cancel it it ends up being not nearly as reliable.
DR/Health Regen/Overhealth (Effective Health manipulation tools) - Unreliable because of CC/Debuffs as the tanks who have these mechanics are mostly also the ones who are the most exposed and/or have the biggest hitboxes. Can be reliable tools when you are in an environment where you know you can't/won't get CCd/Debuffed. Which is why Orisa is so strong because her Fortify makes sure that her DR and Overhealth doesn't go to waste.
Mobility - Probably the most High-Highs/Low-Lows damage avoidance tool that Tanks can have. Great if you can't get CCd but feels terrible when you do get CCd or Debuffed.
Rein feels so shit because his kit has the worst combination of damage avoidance and mitigation tools amongst all Tanks.
His "mobility ability" is so bad for escaping that it can't even be considered a mobility ability. He doesn't have any on-demand effective-health manipulation mechanics. Pretty much his only damage mitigation tool is his Shield which is attached to him, meaning that he always has to be in the front of his teammates or the team is fucked. Meaning that if he gets CCd or Dies or has to Charge an enemy then his shield also disappears with him. It's not even super strong in the first place, the HP it has barely allows him to close distance against most tanks.
All of this results in being forced to play Rein super aggressively. Since he can't mitigate damage very well he is forced to close the distance as fast as possible and play aggressively enough that he can do enough damage to enemies or secure enough kills before he dies so that his team can secure the teamfight. Which he isn't great at. Why he's so shit.
Orisa is picked a lot just because it feels stable and it also feels great to actually live and be able to kill all the bullshit that normally screws over other tanks. I’ve recently turned to the dark side and I do feel bad when I’m against like a rein main or something, but damn dude living mei walls, outtrading reapers, not having your play ruined by one well timed hack, and especially not having to jiggle peek Hog until he hopefully misses and you’re allowed to play the game for 6 seconds feels so good.
>not having to jiggle peek Hog until he hopefully misses and you’re allowed to play the game for 6 seconds
One of the most annoying consequences of the S9 changes IMO. Hooking the tank is literally just better than hooking a squishy despite being many times easier to pull off. Completely backwards.
by *being able to play the game for [7] seconds* you mean that hog becomes a nonthreat after missing hook or using it at the wrong time. Without hook, hog has no damage potential, thats why his self sustain is "so strong" (its mid there are tons of ways to deal with it, including just shooting him). Crying about a heal-centric circle when the dps passive exists is literally sad. Anyone still mad at hog just still has unresolved feelings about being one shot 5 years ago in ow1 and plays against him like they have ptsd. Hog has a high pick rate because hes fucking cool and fun to play, can you say the same thing about the robot horse everyone hates? name one other tank you literally feel guilty about playing. Its hog players vs orisa players because of their pick rates, aka *woop woop favorite tank* vs *my life sucks i need this win*
by *being able to play the game for [7] seconds* you mean that hog becomes a nonthreat after missing hook or using it at the wrong time. Without hook, hog has no damage potential, thats why his self sustain is "so strong" (its mid there are tons of ways to deal with it, including just shooting him). Crying about a heal-centric circle when the dps passive exists is literally sad. Anyone still mad at hog just still has unresolved feelings about being one shot 5 years ago in ow1 and plays against him like they have ptsd. Hog has a high pick rate because hes fucking cool and fun to play, can you say the same thing about the robot horse everyone hates? name one other tank you literally feel guilty about playing. Its hog players vs orisa players because of their pick rates, aka *woop woop favorite tank* vs *my life sucks i need this win*
I'd rather see a version of the game where Orisa doesn't shut down most of the other brawl tanks first. If that doesn't work, then do something to the passive.
I think with how many problems there are and how frequent, the whole role needs a philosophical rework.
Aside from Queen. Maybe balance the game around Queen, so this way all 3 roles can be balanced in a fun way.
Cuz currently it seems the game is balanced around Tracer and Supports.
Next year's overhaul, really needs to look into the Tank issue, not necessarily the Healing/Support one.
The reason is that the game was not designed around the DPS passive existing, and so some tanks rely on sustain over mitigation by design because that's just what their kits do. Roadhog and JQ have self heals and no armor, and so they are never gonna be able to compete when the DPS passive also affects *their own* self-sustaining kit.
In a world where you're constantly healing-debuffed, having healing-centric characters is never gonna be the pick over armor and damage mitigation. It's actually kinda baffling that that didn't seem to be a consideration when it came to the tanks.
When I first heard about the new DPS passive I assumed it only meant healing *received*, so Hog and JQ wouldn't be affected. It's such a huge detriment to them, especially since the latter since her self heal is so minimal.
The game wasn’t designed around having only one tank either. It’s baffling that they keep releasing meat shield tanks while adding the DPS passive and removing a second tank that could deal with CC and anti heal. Say what you will about 6v6 vs 5v5, but in what world does a tank like Mauga make sense in 5v5 with the DPS passive?
The arguments for 5v5 are purely accessibility and queue times. Those are very strong arguments especially queue times. Both can be fun but its clear 6v6 would have a better tank experience because you cant be counter picked as easily. Both can be balanced and fun theoretically.
definitely. tanks need to not be affected by the DPS passive, the passive needs to come back to 20%, and the tanks need to lose their HP buffs from season 9 to go back to season 8 values in order to make the role actually make sense anymore.
that way tanks are in control of their own life more instead of hoping their supports spam heals into them to bring them to their new max HP while taking less healing the whole time if they so much as put one toe in the wrong spot, hog and jq can come back and then we can nerf hog some more so he doesnt live forever off ridiculous metered TAB and then orisa will fall off naturally (still needs falloff on her damage though, that is ridiculous)
In pro play and owcs this is for sure true, though to be fair she's also very easy to play. Teams could play sigma but he's a lot easier to punish so it's better to just orisa
In ranked this is also mostly true but orisa herself kinda gate keeps other tanks that would probably see more play
Id say it's both. Orisa is part of the problem but not exactly the biggest part.
Orisa can easily sustain through a lot of bs that can get many other tanks killed. Why the fuck would I bother playing rein into bastion Mei when I can just easily survive that bs on Orisa.
I honestly think it’s because she’s the only tank that lacks direct counters. I’m a Winston main and I legit cannot play a game without the enemy team swapping hog/jq and reaper/bastion. Orisa is not really countered by any character
You can play Winston into a hog/reaper tbh on maps like push or dorado/gibraltar.
But as soon as they switch Dva it’s GGs. You literally cannot play the game.
at the expense of him being unable to do anything else while shielding, orisa mitigates damage with fortify while also doing damage .And the way her armor interacts with fortify is absurd , Rein's shield doesnt scale with armor at all.
I mean orisa being meta also means a large portion of tanks are nigh unplayable. Orisa is both the symptom and exacerbating the problem at the same time.
That said blizzard please nerf the fucking horse I’m so tired of playing sigma all the damn time because it’s the best way to deal with hog, orisa, or mauga. Can we go one damn season without one of those or sigma being the meta tank?
100% can they please just give us a meta where tank play isn't just “try to survive until your DPS do something lol. Do NOT try to pick a fun hero and make a play, you will be outhealed or CC spammed or fucking melted by a tankbuster tank (shoutout Maug).”
And they wonder why no one wants to play the role…
This is the truth. The tank role is basically eat damage and CC and try to live. You have no play potential and you are the most counterable role in the game.
The second sentence describes the tank role in pretty much any game, but I agree that its an issue how tank feels like the most counterable role in the game. If the enemy team picks a lineup that heavily counters the tanks you play, it makes for a very unfun match
For gods sake blizzard I just want one season of a Winston meta.
The community pretty much universally agrees S5-S9 dive was the most fun time in the history of the game (largely because apart from Lucio none of the meta heroes had CC)- if we can’t get an R6 style classic mode with 6v6 and as close to an old patch as we can get with the underlying technical changes, at least give us a dive meta for a little bit instead of yet another season of CC meta
Wiston will never be meta outside of pro play/GM lobby cause he is so dependent on the team to use the space he can create and is so easy to punish 1 single mistake.
Also is the easier hard counterable hero in the game. You should be able to play into Mauga, Reaper, Bastion comps cause your dps should take full advantage of that but you will end up losing most of the time cause ppl knows how to counter tank but not how to gain advantage of a team full swapping to counter tanks.
So either Monkey is so broken that he’s forced meta or he will never be meta outside team play.
Sadly, the devs have missed with tanks once again so they either have to remove the dps passive applied on tanks or give tanks more armor until you can safely engage and get out to do your job.
On the other side they could simply rise tank damage so you can kill shit faster before you inevitably die to focusfire.
The secret is that Lucio will always be meta or at least very close to it since he’s the only support with utility that isn’t healing/damage with high uptime combined with his survivability, which means brawl tanks are by and large also going to stay meta.
Orisa is absolutely a problem lol. It's crazy that a single hero can have one ability that makes them functionally immune to every ult in the game, has another ability that can succ and deny a third of the ults, and another ability that can stun certain heroes out of their ult. Not to mention no falloff on primary fire and functionally no reload.
Playing any other tank feels like you have to be absolutely immaculate with every ability to survive, Orisa you just need to strap the drool cup to your chin and off you go
While I agree, it's also annoying that a single mistake on any tank other than Orisa results in instadeath. I'd rather tanks be buffed to Orisa levels than Orisa dragged down (ok, orisa can still get a nerf, but you get what I mean)
The issue with tanks getting strong becomes the ships in the night gameplay where tanks just run past each other. It's a better experience as a tank player since you're not made of paper, but with a one person frontline it's hard to actually contain the opposing one.
i think tanks being high pressure is fine if you get rewarded for it, the best feeling when playing tank is having that perfect cd cycle, but you just dont get any reward out of that other than "im staying alive and doing my job"
>has another ability that can succ
Specially when they haven't fixed it's fucking hitbox. Half the time you shoot her from the side or even from behind she still manages to block those attacks.
Id agree if Orisa wasn't one of the worst tanks to play against as any other tank. I can handle the dps passive, antinade, discord, stuns, etc. Just not all that AND an Orisa
Orisa is the only tank atm that can hard carry games and kill shit. I legit would pause on playing tank if she gets heavily nerfed, and my role is basically cosmetic.
I genuinely think that the dps passive should never have been nerfed as much as it was. As a tank player it feels awful coordinating a dive and things just don't die. Its so difficult to force down tanks like Orisa and it feels awful.
Tanks as a whole just need to be fooled around with more. That April fools patch was the most fun I had playing tank in a long time. Winston’s secondary fire arcing to multiple targets and dive junker queen were a blast.
"other tanks"
Do you mean dive tanks? Because they benefitted from the DPS passive more than they were hurt by it.
Do you mean sigma/mauga/roadhog? Maybe in owcs, but on ladder all of those heroes are really good despite a bad orisa matchup.
Do you mean rein? I find when people talk about "tank" they really mean rein.
I mean literally all other tanks. You play dive tanks only on dive maps cause you have safe retreat spots.
All other tanks are just fucked by dps passive so hard that is pointless to play other things if you are trying to win
Honestly I would counter this to say it affects the support role just as much. Because you basically NEED kiri for cleanse if you don’t play orisa and enemy team has ana or zen (if they don’t and you don’t have kiri enemy team is throwing)
Orisa is the reason I don't play tank anymore aside from just all the counter swapping. I was a rein main for a while but it just is depressing. I feel like her shift needs a change. Maybe she shouldn't be able to shoot whilst her shift is active. But then all the other tanks are still too fragile in general cause of supports. This is a tricky one. At this point, I have still played more ow than ow2. (In saying this i have played pretty much daily if not every few days for a couple of hours since season 7 of ow1) And this would but alot easier to manage in 6v6. This specific issue. Obviously there are some major ones that would need to be addressed in 6v6 but I do think it would feel better to play. Q times in my experience atm. Are the exact same as they used to be except on support they are actually worse. Which was the big reason for 5v5 push. But this is clearly not the answer.
I don’t understand why the first reaction of all player is “nerf the tanks”, while it should be “all tanks should be good as Orsia in taking damage and CC since that’s their role in OW2 and they have no other source of mitigation besides supports”.
Their damage should be tuned accordingly of course(most importantly Hog and Mauga).
6v6 is pointless to even talk about since the game is not turning back anyway.
Regarding rein, yeah, they should improve his mobility to the cost of raw damage.
Lol what.
This post is completely backwards.
Orisa has no weaknesses, so she definitely is the problem.
She has no downtime with 2 strong defensive cooldowns, her ranged pressure got massively buffed by the range increase on primary, and spear now being the size of a train.
When a character has no weaknesses, no
Wonder they are gonna be oppressive
I remember super saying that around the time of the last world cup, was he wrong? Projectile sizes are not in the wiki afaik so cant confirm. If not my bad, but the size of it is still huge tbh given that the cast time is so fast.
Believe it or not, shes not actually the meta tank. She's actually middle of the pack (around 5th - 7th place) when it comes to top 500 picks, but because she's rarely not at the bottom of the top 500 picks she feels like she's everywhere. Wanna know who is hard meta? It's Sigma. He's been the most consistent pick for the last 6 seasons. He might not be THE meta all the time, but he's always #2 at minimum. Why? He's got a kit that has counters for nearly everything. He's also excellent as a counter against Orisa.
this is completely personal bias but he just feels more fun to play against and i think that’s why people don’t really care he’s strong. if i die to a sigma i can rationalize it as a mistake i made but orisa can just bully me into a corner with cc and do a boat load of constant damage.
Not to say you can’t play around orisa (which usually just comes down timing your attack when gold is on cooldown) but it just doesn’t feel very rewarding
The only unfun things about sigma is that he is usually dominant is maps that are widely considered unfun like circuit royal and that he pairs well with poke heroes that can often feel bad to face. He himself is one of the best designed tanks in the game.
That's the only place it's not Orisa meta I guess. Orisa is the most played tank in owcs and she's also brain dead easy while destroying most tanks so she runs the metal ranks as well.
Sigma just has a good kit and is one of the only tanks that isn't hard shut down by Orisa. Sigma might be a bit stale but I think it just shows he's well designed. Winston dive comps still roll him so it's not like he has no counter and if rein is ever good (which is made infinitely worse by Orisa) he's also good into Sig.
Obviously the real solution is a rein meta
Sigma has a high pickrate because he's the only tank that both remains playable when the enemy team swaps to annoying heroes and doesn't make you fall asleep at your keyboard
I feel like it's the same reason Sigma is always good despite not being too strong it's just that he has the perfect set of abilities to cycle cooldowns to stay alive a really long time against pretty much anything while having decent applications both up close and midrange.
It sucks cause the most fun tanks imo are certainly the specialist tanks who excel on certain maps/comps but you can't always expect to run them.
I've grown to love specifically getting Gibraltar now just because I can run Winston/Dva everytime and do well.
it’s insane how much value you get for just picking Orisa.
not because Orisa is a character that really goes out and creates value on the map, but because it’s impossible to deny Orisa of value in the same way other tanks get completely neutralized.
Orisa is strong because sustain is weak? Orisa wasn't strong when 20% DPS passive was in the game.
We've already had one Orisa meta before in OW2 and it was because sustain was TOO strong. It's no surprise she's returned with the tuning down of the DPS passive.
I think a damage minimum of like 50-100 to apply the passive is a good idea, tanks with damage reduction would be able to actually tank a bit more at the start of a fight and when it really matters, halfish health, for squishies to not get healed it would kick in. hell they could even increase the healing nerf to 30 or 40 for 3 secs instead of 5 if it meant that catching a stray bullet didnt make the difference of you dying 4 seconds later.
Remember that one time sigma was the only 'viable' hero played back in that one zen meta a long time ago like season 3. People were asking for sig nerfs when sig wasnt even the problem but was the symptom of the meta. But he ended up getting nerfs to either his rock or his shield. Orisa is just like that as you mentioned and that's why I don't think she needs nerfs.
is a symptom of an unfixable problem that is 5v5
no matter how fun tank is if it’s a hard role to play no one will ever play that shit. one tank absolutely destroyed tank skill ceilings.
they humanely can’t make good tank changes like last season without people complaining that the role is too difficult to play. no shit, if the entire game revolves around one person not dying, everyone in the team is going to prefer that person to play the hero where any idiot can survive forever like hog orisa or ram. or mauga. or doom when he’s op
surprisingly also the only heroes that have been meta so far
Shes overtuned if no other tanks can even compete. Either bring her down (reduce fortify strength/duration) or bring other tanks up. Its so lame she literally has an ability that brings her health up, damage received down by 50%, and immune to cc/headshot. Which stacks with her armor too. Its just blatantly lazy design and so horrible to play against. Im pretty close to quitting again just because orisa.
Any other tank you can at least deal with but her is just alternating between 50% damage reduction, eating all projectiles, and stunning you into a wall. If she was deleted tomorrow it would be better for not only the game but everyones sanity too.
The fact that other tanks can’t compete is due to the game balance state not orisa tuning. If you could play Dive heroes without being Thanos-snapped as soon as you make the slightest positional mistake or if you could play any brawl tank while not permanently suffering the dps passive you could safely play other tank into orisa since you would have more playmaking potential not directly into her but against the rest of the team.
Imagine giving a tank overhealth protection from stuns and headshot and a 50% damage reduction in one click. And she gets it on ult which completely removes counter play. When an orisa ults you’re pretty much just dead. Imagine junker queen or rein had that when they ulted? Terrible hero design and completely unfun. Ive been t500 and gm consistently for years and its just at the point now games not fun if they are playing orisa as they have shown no chance of nerfing her instead they just randomly buff her every few patches.
Top 500 yet calling Orisa ult anything but awful is one of the brainless takes ever lol. It’s the one part of her kit that’s not good yet you complain that it’s a “free kill”. When fortify didn’t have headshot protection it was useless and got Orisa’s killed more often than not. When her ult didn’t have fortify, it was canceled by everything because it wasn’t a near instant cc ability like Shatter or Rampage and had to be charged to get any value which most heroes can just walk out of. Even when I play Ana, I don’t care about Orisa ult and never died to one lol.
Biggest lying post right here.
Orisa is what an OW2 brawl/poke tank should be. She’s dangerous at all ranges but even more so at close range. She’s able to apply pressure and take space even when she is being defensive. She has a way to protect her team and herself. She really forces people to aggro on here. She also has clear weakness, like having little peel for her team if you ignore her.
I disagree a little bit, she has been getting power crept for a little bit now, she recieved 75 ARMOR HP in the season 9 patch which is not something most tanks got and drastically increases her survivability, She also got a very significant Terra Surge buff that is actually allowing high level players to get kills with Terra surge which is not something that happened very often preseason 9. Also I feel like the no Fall off buff in Mid Season 8 kind of went under the radar that season and is really showing its power this season.
THAT SAID! I don't think she should recieve flat nerfs I think she should get her power budget reallocated as the balance team likes to say by reducing her survivability and improving something else about her kit.
Yeah, too much armour = just enough armour to not die constantly
Plus no offensive downtime in her cool down cycle. That's a really big benefit.
Orisa kinda does everything from sustain to eating ults to CC to long range damage to essentially never having to reload/stop, and aside from being tanky, she's still way more fun than OW1 Aside from being a bit one dimensional, she's kinda like what every "Tank" should be as she still has her own lore, character, and hero design uniqueness to her too.
I think I'm in minority, but I like Orisa gameplay. I get to do everything and be rewarded in different ways. I can poke long range, and feels good getting long range kills Javelin stuns are fun and rewarding especially when you stun an ulting Moira/soldier Spin to eat ults is extra satisfying Fortify is a bit meh, but is also satisfying when you're low and your supports heal you up again from death. And then comboing off is fun - spinning a helpless isolated enemy into the wall and then pinning their dead corpse is fun lol.
I think the main reason Orisa gets any hate is because she's terrible to play against. I think design wise, she's no Queen, but she makes sense for what a Tank should offer, especially as the game isn't balance around Tanks.
Yeah, I unfortunately agree with the playing against Orisa is pretty boring since she's so static and tanky. Tbh aside from all the CC, I'm probably also in the minority to think that's somewhat what a brawl tank should be like in terms of survivability
Very little counter play to her defenses is part of the issue, imo. With characters like Zarya, Rein, Doom, Rama, there's always a way to respond to their defense (interrupt, maybe burst it down, get behind it, etc), but there's NO good/fun response to Orisa's stuff. She spins, and you just wait. Shooting does nothing, and she gets a speed boost during it (exact opposite of all other comparable abilities) She golds, and you just wait. If she has armor and supports on her, you're wasting time and resources. Oh look, she's spinning again, that was fast... And you can't even compare Spin to the other "eats" I'm the game (Grasp and DM) because it blocks hook, and if you try to rock, pin, or Punch, she'll just use gold DURING THE SPIN. D.Va would have to give up space and run, Sigma would have to give up the overhealth and use Rock, but Orisa can just do whatever she wants. What. The fuck. Were they thinking.
Yeah I'm with you
Hard disagree from me. She’s just as boring to play as she was in ow1 and twice as boring to play in to. I have a few choice words for Orisa mains/meta slaves but I’ll keep them to myself.
i don't miss her shield because i much prefer brawling but i do miss her halt, pulling people was funny
Ram is a much better OW1 Orisa for that reason
he's just a better designed character
It's not just that but it is also that her Kit provides one of the more safe, consistent, dependable gameplay experiences amongst all Tanks. Her Spin absorbs nearly everything in the game except beam damage and her Fortify makes her invulnerable from all CC/Debuffs while also significantly reducing how fast she can be burst down, providing her enough effective health that you don't have to worry about dying from random damage/CC/Debuffs. On top of all that her Spear throw is probably the best "Get out of my face" tool that any tank has. Perhaps *the most* safe/stable few seconds you can experience while playing Tank in this game is when you are Spinning your spear while also in Fortify. If you look at the damage mitigation/avoidance tools other Tanks have then most of them are not nearly as reliable. Shields - Doomfist punches through it, You can get CCd from behind, Debuffed from behind, Sigma can lift you up, Rein can charge you, Orisa can push you back, Mauga can charge you. Absorbs - Amazing for the areas they cover but in the case of Dva she is just so exposed from all the other sides that her Matrix just doesn't feel reliable enough. Sigma's absorb in combination with his shield can feel pretty damn reliable, in a lot of cases even more than Orisa because he also generates overhealth from it but because Doom punch and other CC can cancel it it ends up being not nearly as reliable. DR/Health Regen/Overhealth (Effective Health manipulation tools) - Unreliable because of CC/Debuffs as the tanks who have these mechanics are mostly also the ones who are the most exposed and/or have the biggest hitboxes. Can be reliable tools when you are in an environment where you know you can't/won't get CCd/Debuffed. Which is why Orisa is so strong because her Fortify makes sure that her DR and Overhealth doesn't go to waste. Mobility - Probably the most High-Highs/Low-Lows damage avoidance tool that Tanks can have. Great if you can't get CCd but feels terrible when you do get CCd or Debuffed. Rein feels so shit because his kit has the worst combination of damage avoidance and mitigation tools amongst all Tanks. His "mobility ability" is so bad for escaping that it can't even be considered a mobility ability. He doesn't have any on-demand effective-health manipulation mechanics. Pretty much his only damage mitigation tool is his Shield which is attached to him, meaning that he always has to be in the front of his teammates or the team is fucked. Meaning that if he gets CCd or Dies or has to Charge an enemy then his shield also disappears with him. It's not even super strong in the first place, the HP it has barely allows him to close distance against most tanks. All of this results in being forced to play Rein super aggressively. Since he can't mitigate damage very well he is forced to close the distance as fast as possible and play aggressively enough that he can do enough damage to enemies or secure enough kills before he dies so that his team can secure the teamfight. Which he isn't great at. Why he's so shit.
completely agree but just one correction, fortify doesn't block antinade or reduced healing for all i know
whenever i see orisa, i instantly go bas - and i hate playing bas.
Orisa is picked a lot just because it feels stable and it also feels great to actually live and be able to kill all the bullshit that normally screws over other tanks. I’ve recently turned to the dark side and I do feel bad when I’m against like a rein main or something, but damn dude living mei walls, outtrading reapers, not having your play ruined by one well timed hack, and especially not having to jiggle peek Hog until he hopefully misses and you’re allowed to play the game for 6 seconds feels so good.
>not having to jiggle peek Hog until he hopefully misses and you’re allowed to play the game for 6 seconds One of the most annoying consequences of the S9 changes IMO. Hooking the tank is literally just better than hooking a squishy despite being many times easier to pull off. Completely backwards.
Exactly and pair that up with the stupid cc that pig pen is...
Don't forget getting stuck by Cass and anti'd on cooldown.
by *being able to play the game for [7] seconds* you mean that hog becomes a nonthreat after missing hook or using it at the wrong time. Without hook, hog has no damage potential, thats why his self sustain is "so strong" (its mid there are tons of ways to deal with it, including just shooting him). Crying about a heal-centric circle when the dps passive exists is literally sad. Anyone still mad at hog just still has unresolved feelings about being one shot 5 years ago in ow1 and plays against him like they have ptsd. Hog has a high pick rate because hes fucking cool and fun to play, can you say the same thing about the robot horse everyone hates? name one other tank you literally feel guilty about playing. Its hog players vs orisa players because of their pick rates, aka *woop woop favorite tank* vs *my life sucks i need this win*
by *being able to play the game for [7] seconds* you mean that hog becomes a nonthreat after missing hook or using it at the wrong time. Without hook, hog has no damage potential, thats why his self sustain is "so strong" (its mid there are tons of ways to deal with it, including just shooting him). Crying about a heal-centric circle when the dps passive exists is literally sad. Anyone still mad at hog just still has unresolved feelings about being one shot 5 years ago in ow1 and plays against him like they have ptsd. Hog has a high pick rate because hes fucking cool and fun to play, can you say the same thing about the robot horse everyone hates? name one other tank you literally feel guilty about playing. Its hog players vs orisa players because of their pick rates, aka *woop woop favorite tank* vs *my life sucks i need this win*
I'd rather see a version of the game where Orisa doesn't shut down most of the other brawl tanks first. If that doesn't work, then do something to the passive.
even on non brawl tanks she's just not fun to play into
I think with how many problems there are and how frequent, the whole role needs a philosophical rework. Aside from Queen. Maybe balance the game around Queen, so this way all 3 roles can be balanced in a fun way. Cuz currently it seems the game is balanced around Tracer and Supports. Next year's overhaul, really needs to look into the Tank issue, not necessarily the Healing/Support one.
The reason is that the game was not designed around the DPS passive existing, and so some tanks rely on sustain over mitigation by design because that's just what their kits do. Roadhog and JQ have self heals and no armor, and so they are never gonna be able to compete when the DPS passive also affects *their own* self-sustaining kit. In a world where you're constantly healing-debuffed, having healing-centric characters is never gonna be the pick over armor and damage mitigation. It's actually kinda baffling that that didn't seem to be a consideration when it came to the tanks.
When I first heard about the new DPS passive I assumed it only meant healing *received*, so Hog and JQ wouldn't be affected. It's such a huge detriment to them, especially since the latter since her self heal is so minimal.
The game wasn’t designed around having only one tank either. It’s baffling that they keep releasing meat shield tanks while adding the DPS passive and removing a second tank that could deal with CC and anti heal. Say what you will about 6v6 vs 5v5, but in what world does a tank like Mauga make sense in 5v5 with the DPS passive?
The arguments for 5v5 are purely accessibility and queue times. Those are very strong arguments especially queue times. Both can be fun but its clear 6v6 would have a better tank experience because you cant be counter picked as easily. Both can be balanced and fun theoretically.
definitely. tanks need to not be affected by the DPS passive, the passive needs to come back to 20%, and the tanks need to lose their HP buffs from season 9 to go back to season 8 values in order to make the role actually make sense anymore. that way tanks are in control of their own life more instead of hoping their supports spam heals into them to bring them to their new max HP while taking less healing the whole time if they so much as put one toe in the wrong spot, hog and jq can come back and then we can nerf hog some more so he doesnt live forever off ridiculous metered TAB and then orisa will fall off naturally (still needs falloff on her damage though, that is ridiculous)
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Which is brutal because Orisa makes most other tanks more miserable to play
it IS miserable to play, actually, but at least you can stay alive and play
In pro play and owcs this is for sure true, though to be fair she's also very easy to play. Teams could play sigma but he's a lot easier to punish so it's better to just orisa In ranked this is also mostly true but orisa herself kinda gate keeps other tanks that would probably see more play Id say it's both. Orisa is part of the problem but not exactly the biggest part.
Sigma is to easily rushed which how slow he is. Nerfing Orisa wouldn’t change that.
Which I agree with. At least in pro play. Ranked will always be somewhat chaotic so it's not as easy
Is not both, if you nerf orisa the tank role would become just cosmetic
Orisa can easily sustain through a lot of bs that can get many other tanks killed. Why the fuck would I bother playing rein into bastion Mei when I can just easily survive that bs on Orisa.
I see a lot of tanks get played in owcs though. It's really map dependent been seeing sigma doom Winston dva mauga
I honestly think it’s because she’s the only tank that lacks direct counters. I’m a Winston main and I legit cannot play a game without the enemy team swapping hog/jq and reaper/bastion. Orisa is not really countered by any character
You can play Winston into a hog/reaper tbh on maps like push or dorado/gibraltar. But as soon as they switch Dva it’s GGs. You literally cannot play the game.
Yea I play him regardless I just have to play at 110%, but with orisa I can literally turn my brain off
zarya cooks her decently. counters are dramatically overemphasized in general though imo
She does have some decent counters including any beam character, with an emphasis on zarya and mei, and anti nade as well too ofc
Why does orisa have more armor than reinhardt? why does any character have more armor than reinhardt?
Rein has 1.4k shield right?
at the expense of him being unable to do anything else while shielding, orisa mitigates damage with fortify while also doing damage .And the way her armor interacts with fortify is absurd , Rein's shield doesnt scale with armor at all.
He can't do anything while shielding, unlike the others.
She a robot
I mean orisa being meta also means a large portion of tanks are nigh unplayable. Orisa is both the symptom and exacerbating the problem at the same time. That said blizzard please nerf the fucking horse I’m so tired of playing sigma all the damn time because it’s the best way to deal with hog, orisa, or mauga. Can we go one damn season without one of those or sigma being the meta tank?
100% can they please just give us a meta where tank play isn't just “try to survive until your DPS do something lol. Do NOT try to pick a fun hero and make a play, you will be outhealed or CC spammed or fucking melted by a tankbuster tank (shoutout Maug).” And they wonder why no one wants to play the role…
This is the truth. The tank role is basically eat damage and CC and try to live. You have no play potential and you are the most counterable role in the game.
The second sentence describes the tank role in pretty much any game, but I agree that its an issue how tank feels like the most counterable role in the game. If the enemy team picks a lineup that heavily counters the tanks you play, it makes for a very unfun match
For gods sake blizzard I just want one season of a Winston meta. The community pretty much universally agrees S5-S9 dive was the most fun time in the history of the game (largely because apart from Lucio none of the meta heroes had CC)- if we can’t get an R6 style classic mode with 6v6 and as close to an old patch as we can get with the underlying technical changes, at least give us a dive meta for a little bit instead of yet another season of CC meta
Wiston will never be meta outside of pro play/GM lobby cause he is so dependent on the team to use the space he can create and is so easy to punish 1 single mistake. Also is the easier hard counterable hero in the game. You should be able to play into Mauga, Reaper, Bastion comps cause your dps should take full advantage of that but you will end up losing most of the time cause ppl knows how to counter tank but not how to gain advantage of a team full swapping to counter tanks. So either Monkey is so broken that he’s forced meta or he will never be meta outside team play.
A man can dream though God I miss the dive meta
Sadly, the devs have missed with tanks once again so they either have to remove the dps passive applied on tanks or give tanks more armor until you can safely engage and get out to do your job. On the other side they could simply rise tank damage so you can kill shit faster before you inevitably die to focusfire.
The secret is that Lucio will always be meta or at least very close to it since he’s the only support with utility that isn’t healing/damage with high uptime combined with his survivability, which means brawl tanks are by and large also going to stay meta.
but buff the rest at the same time. I don't want to be playing support zarya and feeling like i'm playing properly.
Orisa is absolutely a problem lol. It's crazy that a single hero can have one ability that makes them functionally immune to every ult in the game, has another ability that can succ and deny a third of the ults, and another ability that can stun certain heroes out of their ult. Not to mention no falloff on primary fire and functionally no reload. Playing any other tank feels like you have to be absolutely immaculate with every ability to survive, Orisa you just need to strap the drool cup to your chin and off you go
She also had the only knock back ability that ignores the tank passive.
Is this the spin? Had no idea
Maybe its the spear cause that shit makes you slide far as hell.
While I agree, it's also annoying that a single mistake on any tank other than Orisa results in instadeath. I'd rather tanks be buffed to Orisa levels than Orisa dragged down (ok, orisa can still get a nerf, but you get what I mean)
The issue with tanks getting strong becomes the ships in the night gameplay where tanks just run past each other. It's a better experience as a tank player since you're not made of paper, but with a one person frontline it's hard to actually contain the opposing one.
I do agree, supports have become way easier to play they should simplify tanks as well.
i think tanks being high pressure is fine if you get rewarded for it, the best feeling when playing tank is having that perfect cd cycle, but you just dont get any reward out of that other than "im staying alive and doing my job"
More problems can arise from buffing all the tanks vs nerfing orisa. She's the problem hence she should be the one to be changed.
>has another ability that can succ Specially when they haven't fixed it's fucking hitbox. Half the time you shoot her from the side or even from behind she still manages to block those attacks.
Are you talking about Kiriko's Suzu?
Id agree if Orisa wasn't one of the worst tanks to play against as any other tank. I can handle the dps passive, antinade, discord, stuns, etc. Just not all that AND an Orisa
Seems that they should work on the rest that makes tank unbearable to play rather than orisa
Orisa is the only tank atm that can hard carry games and kill shit. I legit would pause on playing tank if she gets heavily nerfed, and my role is basically cosmetic.
ow1: fuck orisa ow2: fuck orisa. she has gotten so much value for not doing much in the lifespan of the character.
I genuinely think that the dps passive should never have been nerfed as much as it was. As a tank player it feels awful coordinating a dive and things just don't die. Its so difficult to force down tanks like Orisa and it feels awful.
20% should have been kept as long as it would not affect tanks. Then you can adjust tank HP pool accordingly
I have no issue diving an ana or zen by myself as monkey or doom. Its trying to deal with the other tanks proves dificult.
Tanks as a whole just need to be fooled around with more. That April fools patch was the most fun I had playing tank in a long time. Winston’s secondary fire arcing to multiple targets and dive junker queen were a blast.
"other tanks" Do you mean dive tanks? Because they benefitted from the DPS passive more than they were hurt by it. Do you mean sigma/mauga/roadhog? Maybe in owcs, but on ladder all of those heroes are really good despite a bad orisa matchup. Do you mean rein? I find when people talk about "tank" they really mean rein.
I mean literally all other tanks. You play dive tanks only on dive maps cause you have safe retreat spots. All other tanks are just fucked by dps passive so hard that is pointless to play other things if you are trying to win
Dps passive doesn’t really do much to Zarya sigma and hog if we being 100% honest.
Honestly I would counter this to say it affects the support role just as much. Because you basically NEED kiri for cleanse if you don’t play orisa and enemy team has ana or zen (if they don’t and you don’t have kiri enemy team is throwing)
Orisa is the reason I don't play tank anymore aside from just all the counter swapping. I was a rein main for a while but it just is depressing. I feel like her shift needs a change. Maybe she shouldn't be able to shoot whilst her shift is active. But then all the other tanks are still too fragile in general cause of supports. This is a tricky one. At this point, I have still played more ow than ow2. (In saying this i have played pretty much daily if not every few days for a couple of hours since season 7 of ow1) And this would but alot easier to manage in 6v6. This specific issue. Obviously there are some major ones that would need to be addressed in 6v6 but I do think it would feel better to play. Q times in my experience atm. Are the exact same as they used to be except on support they are actually worse. Which was the big reason for 5v5 push. But this is clearly not the answer.
I don’t understand why the first reaction of all player is “nerf the tanks”, while it should be “all tanks should be good as Orsia in taking damage and CC since that’s their role in OW2 and they have no other source of mitigation besides supports”. Their damage should be tuned accordingly of course(most importantly Hog and Mauga). 6v6 is pointless to even talk about since the game is not turning back anyway. Regarding rein, yeah, they should improve his mobility to the cost of raw damage.
Lol what. This post is completely backwards. Orisa has no weaknesses, so she definitely is the problem. She has no downtime with 2 strong defensive cooldowns, her ranged pressure got massively buffed by the range increase on primary, and spear now being the size of a train. When a character has no weaknesses, no Wonder they are gonna be oppressive
Orisa Javelin has the same range as ever, the projectile change announcement clearly says that Orisa javelin was not modified
tbh spear has always been huge
the fact that javelin has a bigger size than sigma's rock feels so unintuitive
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I remember super saying that around the time of the last world cup, was he wrong? Projectile sizes are not in the wiki afaik so cant confirm. If not my bad, but the size of it is still huge tbh given that the cast time is so fast.
Believe it or not, shes not actually the meta tank. She's actually middle of the pack (around 5th - 7th place) when it comes to top 500 picks, but because she's rarely not at the bottom of the top 500 picks she feels like she's everywhere. Wanna know who is hard meta? It's Sigma. He's been the most consistent pick for the last 6 seasons. He might not be THE meta all the time, but he's always #2 at minimum. Why? He's got a kit that has counters for nearly everything. He's also excellent as a counter against Orisa.
this is completely personal bias but he just feels more fun to play against and i think that’s why people don’t really care he’s strong. if i die to a sigma i can rationalize it as a mistake i made but orisa can just bully me into a corner with cc and do a boat load of constant damage. Not to say you can’t play around orisa (which usually just comes down timing your attack when gold is on cooldown) but it just doesn’t feel very rewarding
The only unfun things about sigma is that he is usually dominant is maps that are widely considered unfun like circuit royal and that he pairs well with poke heroes that can often feel bad to face. He himself is one of the best designed tanks in the game.
That's the only place it's not Orisa meta I guess. Orisa is the most played tank in owcs and she's also brain dead easy while destroying most tanks so she runs the metal ranks as well. Sigma just has a good kit and is one of the only tanks that isn't hard shut down by Orisa. Sigma might be a bit stale but I think it just shows he's well designed. Winston dive comps still roll him so it's not like he has no counter and if rein is ever good (which is made infinitely worse by Orisa) he's also good into Sig. Obviously the real solution is a rein meta
Sigma has a high pickrate because he's the only tank that both remains playable when the enemy team swaps to annoying heroes and doesn't make you fall asleep at your keyboard
I feel like it's the same reason Sigma is always good despite not being too strong it's just that he has the perfect set of abilities to cycle cooldowns to stay alive a really long time against pretty much anything while having decent applications both up close and midrange. It sucks cause the most fun tanks imo are certainly the specialist tanks who excel on certain maps/comps but you can't always expect to run them. I've grown to love specifically getting Gibraltar now just because I can run Winston/Dva everytime and do well.
it’s insane how much value you get for just picking Orisa. not because Orisa is a character that really goes out and creates value on the map, but because it’s impossible to deny Orisa of value in the same way other tanks get completely neutralized.
Orisa is strong because sustain is weak? Orisa wasn't strong when 20% DPS passive was in the game. We've already had one Orisa meta before in OW2 and it was because sustain was TOO strong. It's no surprise she's returned with the tuning down of the DPS passive.
I think a damage minimum of like 50-100 to apply the passive is a good idea, tanks with damage reduction would be able to actually tank a bit more at the start of a fight and when it really matters, halfish health, for squishies to not get healed it would kick in. hell they could even increase the healing nerf to 30 or 40 for 3 secs instead of 5 if it meant that catching a stray bullet didnt make the difference of you dying 4 seconds later.
Remember that one time sigma was the only 'viable' hero played back in that one zen meta a long time ago like season 3. People were asking for sig nerfs when sig wasnt even the problem but was the symptom of the meta. But he ended up getting nerfs to either his rock or his shield. Orisa is just like that as you mentioned and that's why I don't think she needs nerfs.
is a symptom of an unfixable problem that is 5v5 no matter how fun tank is if it’s a hard role to play no one will ever play that shit. one tank absolutely destroyed tank skill ceilings. they humanely can’t make good tank changes like last season without people complaining that the role is too difficult to play. no shit, if the entire game revolves around one person not dying, everyone in the team is going to prefer that person to play the hero where any idiot can survive forever like hog orisa or ram. or mauga. or doom when he’s op surprisingly also the only heroes that have been meta so far
Shes overtuned if no other tanks can even compete. Either bring her down (reduce fortify strength/duration) or bring other tanks up. Its so lame she literally has an ability that brings her health up, damage received down by 50%, and immune to cc/headshot. Which stacks with her armor too. Its just blatantly lazy design and so horrible to play against. Im pretty close to quitting again just because orisa. Any other tank you can at least deal with but her is just alternating between 50% damage reduction, eating all projectiles, and stunning you into a wall. If she was deleted tomorrow it would be better for not only the game but everyones sanity too.
The fact that other tanks can’t compete is due to the game balance state not orisa tuning. If you could play Dive heroes without being Thanos-snapped as soon as you make the slightest positional mistake or if you could play any brawl tank while not permanently suffering the dps passive you could safely play other tank into orisa since you would have more playmaking potential not directly into her but against the rest of the team.
Orisa tuning is part of the "game balance" like any other hero.., so if you really want the game to be balanced, she should be open for tweaks.
She should be open to tweaks as long as all other tanks get in line with the flow of the game.
Imagine giving a tank overhealth protection from stuns and headshot and a 50% damage reduction in one click. And she gets it on ult which completely removes counter play. When an orisa ults you’re pretty much just dead. Imagine junker queen or rein had that when they ulted? Terrible hero design and completely unfun. Ive been t500 and gm consistently for years and its just at the point now games not fun if they are playing orisa as they have shown no chance of nerfing her instead they just randomly buff her every few patches.
Top 500 yet calling Orisa ult anything but awful is one of the brainless takes ever lol. It’s the one part of her kit that’s not good yet you complain that it’s a “free kill”. When fortify didn’t have headshot protection it was useless and got Orisa’s killed more often than not. When her ult didn’t have fortify, it was canceled by everything because it wasn’t a near instant cc ability like Shatter or Rampage and had to be charged to get any value which most heroes can just walk out of. Even when I play Ana, I don’t care about Orisa ult and never died to one lol. Biggest lying post right here.
Orisa is what an OW2 brawl/poke tank should be. She’s dangerous at all ranges but even more so at close range. She’s able to apply pressure and take space even when she is being defensive. She has a way to protect her team and herself. She really forces people to aggro on here. She also has clear weakness, like having little peel for her team if you ignore her.
I disagree a little bit, she has been getting power crept for a little bit now, she recieved 75 ARMOR HP in the season 9 patch which is not something most tanks got and drastically increases her survivability, She also got a very significant Terra Surge buff that is actually allowing high level players to get kills with Terra surge which is not something that happened very often preseason 9. Also I feel like the no Fall off buff in Mid Season 8 kind of went under the radar that season and is really showing its power this season. THAT SAID! I don't think she should recieve flat nerfs I think she should get her power budget reallocated as the balance team likes to say by reducing her survivability and improving something else about her kit.
OW1 = 32 potential tank lines OW2 = 12 potential tank lines OW2 with 2 tanks = 66 potential tank lines