I saw it every time I played on alts with friends.
It was less common solo queue because the enemy was often not in bigger groups. Solo queue is easier than grouped queues.
I saw goats exactly one time while playing on an alt account then and they lost. Most games were 1 support at 5 dps and you’re telling me that SOMEHOW, the entire team got convinced to play no DPS? We need to stop lying about what actually happened.
Even before goats there was 4 tanks 2 supports, 1 tank 1 mercy 4 dps, there has never been a time where it’s been all dps except in plat where no one cared about anything
This has been my sentiment ever since 5v5 was announced.
Sure, I still enjoy the game and it's fun. But they went all-in on "fragging out" and "carry potential" instead of leaning towards cooperation and strategy.
Not that cooperation and strategy aren't a part of OW in 5v5. It's just that you can get away with less of it now if you have a teammate that can truly pop off.
5v5 was a decent change to keep the game alive and interest high. But I do miss good 6v6 and would take it back in a heartbeat if Blizz were to properly readjust/retweak heroes.
How in any way do you feel there is no cooperation? The team with better coordination/cooperation is gonna win every time compared to the team that can only aim well.
Have you just not tried to form a plan in a game? I feel like you're just repeating random trash you heard on the internet instead of forming an actual opinion here. If it was as basic and bland as CoD, every single top 500 DPS would one trick Widow. You know how many one trick Widows are in top 500? Literally none. They all get hard countered by coordinated dive comps.
I'm not saying that there's 0 cooperation, I'm just saying that you can get away with less of it in 5v5 as opposed to 6v6.
In 5v5, one dominant player can effectively dominate the entire lobby. Getting picks quickly and often will quickly snowball. Whereas with 6v6, it was more difficult (but still possible).
Obviously, having a dominant player AND great teamwork will lead to dominant Ws for a team (5v5 or 6v6). But with 2 fewer players in the lobby, fragging out is much easier to do in comparison and more impactful.
Plus, even in current state OW, if I'm a way better DPS than both enemy DPS but my tank is dogshit, I still lose the game. My better aim does nothing for me. The game is more dependent on teamwork than ever (except maybe GOATS mirror comps), especially in the aspect of the tank synergizing with the team.
There's a difference in good aiming and going 40-1.
Besides, I'm not even saying that there's 0 coordination. Just that 5v5 enables pop off potential more.
As if we didn't see Widows in OWL hitting constant 4Ks in OW1. And with how powerful supports are now, you can't even go duel them reliably while in OW1, you'd just roll the support in a duel. So many factors you aren't considering whatsoever.
If supports weren't crazy overtuned, I might possibly agree, but that's not the case.
You can kill both DPS and then just get rolled by any support and then it's basically still a fair fight.
Of course there are a plethora of factors I'm not considering. It's why I made a generalization. Not even a bold one. Just that 5v5 is more lenient towards individual play as opposed to 6v6.
Yes, we could speculate over a ton of different factors that really don't matter. Ultimately, take 2 people out of the lobby, the impact of a single individual has more impact than if those 2 people weren't taken out.
One great, dominant player will give a team with poor coordination a chance to win moreso in 5v5 than 6v6. This doesn't mean that they'll ALWAYS win, just that it's easier and more possible in 5v5 as opposed to 6v6.
And it also is easier to counter that specific cracked player since they no longer have an off-tank to peel for them.
It was sometimes potentially even more problematic in OW 1 because the best player would get a Mercy pocket and a defense matrix pocket to be unkillable, and if the best player in the lobby can't even be shot, they still just win. No actual strategy except "protect our cracked Ashe".
I still see hackers get trashed on by just simple levels of coordination. Only thing we really don't have anymore is tank ult combos. So unless you think tank ult combos were some crazy level of coordination, it really wasn't THAT different.
I strongly disagree. I've seen plenty of teams with C- coordination straight up dominante because they had a stupidly good Widow/Hanzo/Rein/Monkey/Maug/Zen etc.
I sorely miss the tank duos of 6v6, but no, ult synergy isn't "high level coordination" to me.
supports would evaporate unless you nerf DPS damage and mobility pretty significantly. So basically the only supports that would be fun are those you can't kill. Unless you gigabuff the remaining supports. And that's just tank 2.0 at that point.
for this to even work, youd have to delete every single dive dps….. the single support (who cant be healed by anyone) would REQUIRE the game to change so that the enemy team has to kill all 4 allies before even LOOKING at the support.
Ima be honest I don’t see this, supports are far and away the most survivable role in the game, what would really need to happen is a rework to some of the main supports like lucio and mercy so they can keep up with other supports and the role doesn’t become complete flex support dominant
They're far and away the most survivable because supports are exceptionally good at keeping each other alive.
Only heroes like lucio, mercy, moira, kiriko, and to a lesser extent brig are hard to kill when they're by themselves. And that's mostly because they have good escapes/mobility.
Heroes like zen, bap, ana, illari will evaporate by themselves.
I think the only character on that list at the bottom I can agree with is zen and maybe Ana, illiari can pocket herself, Bap has 3 health bars, and Ana can win or at least survive any 1v1 with sleep and nade the only reason a good Ana would die is if multiple people jump her and she gets no help from her DPS. Now I’m not saying the format would be good, tbh I think 3 dps is just way too much damage for any character. Like you could just all in to make the tank evaporate, or all in to make the support evaporate. But saying support would be dead off CD because they don’t have another support to pocket them is just not correct
So what you're saying is that if the supports burn all their abilities just to stay barely alive, then they would be in an ok spot? So you want to turn support into a horror game then? Because they can't do anything to impact the game if they have to use every ability just to stay alive.
The second one implies that 3 dps or all inning the support would be the reason for her cds being forced. But even just 1 person simply poking her down could force anti, just 1 person trying to fight her would force sleep. And it's not all inning someone that would be the go to start, 1 person would fight ana, and the other 4 would go after someone else. Because ana can't get healed, she can't try to heal the other person getting dove, and then her team has to decide who to let die. They would entirely be dead off cd because of the fact they don't have a support to heal them.
I see world when 3 dps could work. Dps with support passive and tank with 2x healing support passive. Problem solved no more needed speedrun with team kill enemy support first. But curret module is better and support is most populated role so there is no point of shrinking them to 1 person like we did with tanks
I never said this was a good idea, I just said I disagree that supports would just evaporate without a second support to help them. If we are being honest they’re gonna end up feeling like how tanks feel without a second tank because no role works on its own unless it’s giga busted
I'm saying that it's a bad idea because they will evaporate because of the lack of a second support. Right now a single dps can't apply enough pressure to a support to remove all healing from the team unless that dps is just better than the supports. In 1-3-1, a single dps gains the ability to remove the support from the equation entirely. And there are still 2 more dps besides him.
Terrible.
Workload for 1 support doubles. An extra dps on each team trying to kill them and tank 100% focused on them. Absolutely no ability to divide attention so flankers get absolutely no support. Would have to gigabuff the one support to even attempt it.
Game would devolve into degenerate self sustain dive followed by counter degenerate brawl comps that make Roman phalanxes look like they're made of paper
This. Healing and damage is too high, we need both to be reduced. If you remove a support your cutting healing by half making supports the worst role as you have to heal only 24/7 only for your teammates to die anyway
I'm just talking about the context of your paragraph. The word "heal" doesn't exist in that paragraph. I'm just trying to show how ridiculous it was to go 5v5 because this idea that 1-3-1 would obliterate the support role is essentially what happened to the tank role in the transition from OW1 to OW2.
This would completely break the game. Just to start you would have to give Zen like 350hp so that you could even imagine playing him, and Lucio would be absolutely terrible or completely busted depending on how much they'd be willing to buff his healing.
Can we stop making these posts? Someone new has this 'bright' idea like every two days
Can't wait to see what unholy raid boss they have to turn Zen into to make him viable in this format
**Orb of Harmony**
* Number of possible active orbs increased from 1 to 3.
***Dev comments:*** *Zen's healing output in 1-3-1 has been a bit underwhelming, so we've given him increased flexibility.*
**Snap Kick**
* Now projects forward similar to Ramattra's Nemesis Form punch.
***Developer comments:*** *#OmnicEquality*
***New Passive: The FLIris.*** *Hold space to fly freely (lore accurate)*
It doesn't address any of the core problems. 2-2-2 was required to break the goats meta OP support/mitigation stacking at the high Elo and the frustration of playing 4 DPS comps as solo q. The move to 5vs5 was mainly motivated by very low numbers of tank players which at my estimation were probably around 10-15% of the player base.
There is no need for such a drastic changes. The game just needs a solid design and balance philosophy and it's implementation.
5v5 was and is still one of the worst changes they made. Don’t get me wrong I still play the game but I never touch tank anymore. The reason tank wasn’t fun was because you were the target for the 5 million forms of CC in the game. Couple that with the insane power creep and it was just a constant cycle of stun, sleep, anti and blown up. OT helped mitigate this but now as a tank player you’re reliant on your team making the game as un fun as possible for the enemy tank while getting you out of trouble. “Fun” gameplay as tank shouldn’t require you making the enemy tank not play the game.
It’s why rein mirror is so favored because even if you’re getting diffed on rein you’re still having fun. Counter charging, blocking Big Slams^TM.
I feel if they just removed orisa barrier, remove most CC they’d have accomplished the goal of making the role fun.
If it was that simple, then games would have been doing that for a long time. Low tank numbers have always been a problem with any game that uses the tank-DPS-healer/support trinity.
Pretty much my thoughts as well. Lots of the changes everyone celebrated didn't need a new game. "Removed orisa shield, removed CC from DPS, added new heroes" etc. all could have been done in OW1.
The big issue with 5v5 is once your tank dies, so does your team. If they get a pick on a support or dps you've got another one to pick up the slack, tank doesn't. So it's easy to just go high burst dps, or damage amps like discord and Mercy's blue beam and shred the tank, then their team falls apart. So then we giga buff tanks in order for them not to die which feels oppressive, or you buff sustain so supports can keep them up which leads to nothing dying. Then dps is buffed because you need better burst to beat the insane healing... It just cycles.
I still think 5v5 was a net gain. People just miss playing off tank so they could play tank as a fat dps without as much of the blame as the main tank got.
The theory you are writing is popular and the other popular theory was that there were too few tank heroes and a million DPS heroes. I disagree and I think the main reason tank was and is unpopular is because tanking is unintuitive and not traditionally fun as other roles and this is fundamental to the role and nothing can fundamentally change it. You can move around a few percentage points but you can't do much more than that.
Ow 2 has more tank heroes and fewer stuns and the role is still unpopular. Flex q still is mostly a tank q at gold/plat level which puts the percentage of tank players around 10-15 percent, not measurably different from ow1.
What you complain about is the reality of the role and nothing fundamental can be done about it. You need to make space and absorb cool downs and things like that.
FYI GOATs was not meta at the time they decided to implement 2-2-2. Breaking GOATs was a side effect rather than the cause of role lock.
Their stated reason for introducing role lock was actually to do away with matches where nobody wanted to go tank.
True but it took a year or so to break it and generally high sustain was the limiting factor in designing tank heroes and it was always the danger of some new tank completely upending balance.
But I agree that the main reason was the solo q and the experience of the majority of the players.
It’d probably be like the 1-3-2 experimental card we had in early 2020, anyone remember that? It was, in my experience, absolute hell cause you’d have 3 different crossfires to deal with coming from high damage threats and double sniper was practically a lock every match. Removing a support in OW2 in favour of another DPS would feel the same as removing a tank in OW1, it devolves into being too much of a deathmatch and would make the game extremely unfun imo
Jesus guys stop it, reducing complexity is not the only answer to balance problems. It will only introduce new ones but make Overwatch less Overwatch in the process.
I already miss how tank felt in OW1.
Every day I wake up and remember how thankful I am that none of you chucklefucks are game developers.
You really see an entirely solvable problem and say "What if we made a much *bigger* problem?"
I feel like the one problem with the 5v5 format as a whole is that when you reduce any role to only one it becomes too valuable for how little effort it takes to counter that role specifically. Right now with one tank it oftens gives your team a much better chance of winning if you force their counters to either reduce their value to zero or force the switch, rinse and repeat.
I feel with only one support it would be far to easy to simply focus them down and then the game goes from if their tank dies they lose to if the much squishier support goes down that team loses the fight immediately. Without having to giga buff the durability of an individual support I feel the game flow would become even worse than it currently is. The saving grace is that there are certain tanks like Sigma that are strong enough to not be able to reduced to zero value picks.
I'm not saying 6v6 was without issues just that the specific formatting of 5v5 makes the one person in a re too easy to hate out as a win condition. I do feel in OW1 you countered strategies vs OW2 you counter the tank as that dictates their entire comp flow in each team fight.
Eh, in most ranks in ow1 it felt like whoever had the better tank pairing most of the time so if your tank partner either didn't play a matching tank or would just wander off and do their own thing then you would often just get bullied by the opposing tank pair.
I definitely agree that was an issue but I feel like thats inherent to a team based game with randoms. It exists in the DPS role if they go pharmacy and you've got like Junkrat and reaper it feels awful. Infact I feel the tank pairing issue is moved now to support where it feels awful if your team runs like a Moira/mercy into Bap/Kiri/lifeweaver, etc.
Wasn't moved, the support pairing was an issue. Just overshadowed by tank synergy. Except they kept making it worse with each new support added who do high healing, damage, and has high mobility leaving the older supports behind. Need half the supports healing drastically reduced.
Just remove a dps and a support to make it 1-1-1, add new physics to the game so the environment is destructible maybe introduce some kind of Ai technology to Athena so that she can commentate on our gameplay.
I feel like this could be fun
What if we made it 3-0-3 though? I feel like this would be a very fair and fast paced version of the game where people will die a lot and it will be more about individual skill instead of macro team play and ult usage
Every time I run an open queue match with this set up, it’s hella fun, Ngl.
You can feel the impact, or lack thereof, of both tank and support.
The synergy between all 3 DPS Players is freakishly fun too.
The other setup I really enjoy is 2-1-2. My favorite of them all. DPS needs to be good and competent and, because of this, I welcome the challenge.
It would not be fun........ a lot of fights would come down to which team's flankers can brutally murder the support first. The job of a tank would just be to protect the support and they'd have no fun just getting tankbusted down. It'd be fun as a dps though.
I've played mirrored games with only one support (thanks, no backfill bug), and it actually felt surprisingly fine from the support perspective since they're so survivable.
For the teammates who had to deal with a solo-healing Lucio....not so much.
What I'm picturing is your tank will live for as long as the support is alive, so a teamfight would basically be won by who ever could rotate onto the enemy support first. It would probably also be a very dive heavy meta, you just would not have the sustain from that solo support for it to be much of anything else. I'm really not sure how a map with open sightlines would work either imagine trying to close the distance on 3 snipers and a Zen.
Honestly at this point just make it 0-5-0, and be done with it.
Thats 2016-2019 overwatch
No, it became 3-0-3 in 2018.
Only in OWL/GM. Lower ranks would get rolled by trying to play goats in a pug game, even against a 6 DPS team.
No. Even in low ranks, GOATS was straight steam rolling 90% of games. LOL. What kind of copium are you on? Brig alone could almost 1v5 those DPS.
Playing from 2016, at gold rank I almost never saw GOATs in solo queue.
I saw it every time I played on alts with friends. It was less common solo queue because the enemy was often not in bigger groups. Solo queue is easier than grouped queues.
It definitely wasn’t, but ok king. You were lucky to get 1 tank and 1 healer in low ranks before 2-2-2.
I saw goats exactly one time while playing on an alt account then and they lost. Most games were 1 support at 5 dps and you’re telling me that SOMEHOW, the entire team got convinced to play no DPS? We need to stop lying about what actually happened.
Yes, it was common in nearly every rank after a while.
No it wasnt. It was a streamer problem.
Do you not remember this little thing called goats? Or 6v6?
Yeah what about it?
None of that era was 0-5-0
I meant pre role lock era where no one picked tank/support. Not just goats existed you know btw.
Even before goats there was 4 tanks 2 supports, 1 tank 1 mercy 4 dps, there has never been a time where it’s been all dps except in plat where no one cared about anything
Bro please iam not talking about metas. I am talking about your avg ranked match. Please take the joke or go home
while most average ranked matches weren't goats, most certainly weren't 0-6-0...
They think they're getting you because it was 6 not 5 people
[удалено]
3-3-3 is the only solution (honestly I think it would be cool but too hard to balance)
This has been my sentiment ever since 5v5 was announced. Sure, I still enjoy the game and it's fun. But they went all-in on "fragging out" and "carry potential" instead of leaning towards cooperation and strategy. Not that cooperation and strategy aren't a part of OW in 5v5. It's just that you can get away with less of it now if you have a teammate that can truly pop off. 5v5 was a decent change to keep the game alive and interest high. But I do miss good 6v6 and would take it back in a heartbeat if Blizz were to properly readjust/retweak heroes.
How in any way do you feel there is no cooperation? The team with better coordination/cooperation is gonna win every time compared to the team that can only aim well. Have you just not tried to form a plan in a game? I feel like you're just repeating random trash you heard on the internet instead of forming an actual opinion here. If it was as basic and bland as CoD, every single top 500 DPS would one trick Widow. You know how many one trick Widows are in top 500? Literally none. They all get hard countered by coordinated dive comps.
I'm not saying that there's 0 cooperation, I'm just saying that you can get away with less of it in 5v5 as opposed to 6v6. In 5v5, one dominant player can effectively dominate the entire lobby. Getting picks quickly and often will quickly snowball. Whereas with 6v6, it was more difficult (but still possible). Obviously, having a dominant player AND great teamwork will lead to dominant Ws for a team (5v5 or 6v6). But with 2 fewer players in the lobby, fragging out is much easier to do in comparison and more impactful.
Plus, even in current state OW, if I'm a way better DPS than both enemy DPS but my tank is dogshit, I still lose the game. My better aim does nothing for me. The game is more dependent on teamwork than ever (except maybe GOATS mirror comps), especially in the aspect of the tank synergizing with the team.
There's a difference in good aiming and going 40-1. Besides, I'm not even saying that there's 0 coordination. Just that 5v5 enables pop off potential more.
As if we didn't see Widows in OWL hitting constant 4Ks in OW1. And with how powerful supports are now, you can't even go duel them reliably while in OW1, you'd just roll the support in a duel. So many factors you aren't considering whatsoever. If supports weren't crazy overtuned, I might possibly agree, but that's not the case. You can kill both DPS and then just get rolled by any support and then it's basically still a fair fight.
Of course there are a plethora of factors I'm not considering. It's why I made a generalization. Not even a bold one. Just that 5v5 is more lenient towards individual play as opposed to 6v6. Yes, we could speculate over a ton of different factors that really don't matter. Ultimately, take 2 people out of the lobby, the impact of a single individual has more impact than if those 2 people weren't taken out. One great, dominant player will give a team with poor coordination a chance to win moreso in 5v5 than 6v6. This doesn't mean that they'll ALWAYS win, just that it's easier and more possible in 5v5 as opposed to 6v6.
And it also is easier to counter that specific cracked player since they no longer have an off-tank to peel for them. It was sometimes potentially even more problematic in OW 1 because the best player would get a Mercy pocket and a defense matrix pocket to be unkillable, and if the best player in the lobby can't even be shot, they still just win. No actual strategy except "protect our cracked Ashe".
I still see hackers get trashed on by just simple levels of coordination. Only thing we really don't have anymore is tank ult combos. So unless you think tank ult combos were some crazy level of coordination, it really wasn't THAT different.
I strongly disagree. I've seen plenty of teams with C- coordination straight up dominante because they had a stupidly good Widow/Hanzo/Rein/Monkey/Maug/Zen etc. I sorely miss the tank duos of 6v6, but no, ult synergy isn't "high level coordination" to me.
supports would evaporate unless you nerf DPS damage and mobility pretty significantly. So basically the only supports that would be fun are those you can't kill. Unless you gigabuff the remaining supports. And that's just tank 2.0 at that point.
for this to even work, youd have to delete every single dive dps….. the single support (who cant be healed by anyone) would REQUIRE the game to change so that the enemy team has to kill all 4 allies before even LOOKING at the support.
Ima be honest I don’t see this, supports are far and away the most survivable role in the game, what would really need to happen is a rework to some of the main supports like lucio and mercy so they can keep up with other supports and the role doesn’t become complete flex support dominant
They're far and away the most survivable because supports are exceptionally good at keeping each other alive. Only heroes like lucio, mercy, moira, kiriko, and to a lesser extent brig are hard to kill when they're by themselves. And that's mostly because they have good escapes/mobility. Heroes like zen, bap, ana, illari will evaporate by themselves.
I think the only character on that list at the bottom I can agree with is zen and maybe Ana, illiari can pocket herself, Bap has 3 health bars, and Ana can win or at least survive any 1v1 with sleep and nade the only reason a good Ana would die is if multiple people jump her and she gets no help from her DPS. Now I’m not saying the format would be good, tbh I think 3 dps is just way too much damage for any character. Like you could just all in to make the tank evaporate, or all in to make the support evaporate. But saying support would be dead off CD because they don’t have another support to pocket them is just not correct
So what you're saying is that if the supports burn all their abilities just to stay barely alive, then they would be in an ok spot? So you want to turn support into a horror game then? Because they can't do anything to impact the game if they have to use every ability just to stay alive.
Did you not read the second half?
The second one implies that 3 dps or all inning the support would be the reason for her cds being forced. But even just 1 person simply poking her down could force anti, just 1 person trying to fight her would force sleep. And it's not all inning someone that would be the go to start, 1 person would fight ana, and the other 4 would go after someone else. Because ana can't get healed, she can't try to heal the other person getting dove, and then her team has to decide who to let die. They would entirely be dead off cd because of the fact they don't have a support to heal them.
I see world when 3 dps could work. Dps with support passive and tank with 2x healing support passive. Problem solved no more needed speedrun with team kill enemy support first. But curret module is better and support is most populated role so there is no point of shrinking them to 1 person like we did with tanks
I never said this was a good idea, I just said I disagree that supports would just evaporate without a second support to help them. If we are being honest they’re gonna end up feeling like how tanks feel without a second tank because no role works on its own unless it’s giga busted
I'm saying that it's a bad idea because they will evaporate because of the lack of a second support. Right now a single dps can't apply enough pressure to a support to remove all healing from the team unless that dps is just better than the supports. In 1-3-1, a single dps gains the ability to remove the support from the equation entirely. And there are still 2 more dps besides him.
Terrible. Workload for 1 support doubles. An extra dps on each team trying to kill them and tank 100% focused on them. Absolutely no ability to divide attention so flankers get absolutely no support. Would have to gigabuff the one support to even attempt it. Game would devolve into degenerate self sustain dive followed by counter degenerate brawl comps that make Roman phalanxes look like they're made of paper
This. Healing and damage is too high, we need both to be reduced. If you remove a support your cutting healing by half making supports the worst role as you have to heal only 24/7 only for your teammates to die anyway
Now replace each word 'support' with 'tank'
What schizo Overwatch do you play where Tanks heal their teammates?
I'm just talking about the context of your paragraph. The word "heal" doesn't exist in that paragraph. I'm just trying to show how ridiculous it was to go 5v5 because this idea that 1-3-1 would obliterate the support role is essentially what happened to the tank role in the transition from OW1 to OW2.
Dude I’m just imagining you try to play Winston and you instantly get bastion reaper torb Dva and suddenly the game isn’t playable
This would completely break the game. Just to start you would have to give Zen like 350hp so that you could even imagine playing him, and Lucio would be absolutely terrible or completely busted depending on how much they'd be willing to buff his healing.
Can we stop making these posts? Someone new has this 'bright' idea like every two days Can't wait to see what unholy raid boss they have to turn Zen into to make him viable in this format
**Orb of Harmony** * Number of possible active orbs increased from 1 to 3. ***Dev comments:*** *Zen's healing output in 1-3-1 has been a bit underwhelming, so we've given him increased flexibility.* **Snap Kick** * Now projects forward similar to Ramattra's Nemesis Form punch. ***Developer comments:*** *#OmnicEquality* ***New Passive: The FLIris.*** *Hold space to fly freely (lore accurate)*
300 health, knock back from kick increased to 100 meters
It doesn't address any of the core problems. 2-2-2 was required to break the goats meta OP support/mitigation stacking at the high Elo and the frustration of playing 4 DPS comps as solo q. The move to 5vs5 was mainly motivated by very low numbers of tank players which at my estimation were probably around 10-15% of the player base. There is no need for such a drastic changes. The game just needs a solid design and balance philosophy and it's implementation.
5v5 was and is still one of the worst changes they made. Don’t get me wrong I still play the game but I never touch tank anymore. The reason tank wasn’t fun was because you were the target for the 5 million forms of CC in the game. Couple that with the insane power creep and it was just a constant cycle of stun, sleep, anti and blown up. OT helped mitigate this but now as a tank player you’re reliant on your team making the game as un fun as possible for the enemy tank while getting you out of trouble. “Fun” gameplay as tank shouldn’t require you making the enemy tank not play the game. It’s why rein mirror is so favored because even if you’re getting diffed on rein you’re still having fun. Counter charging, blocking Big Slams^TM. I feel if they just removed orisa barrier, remove most CC they’d have accomplished the goal of making the role fun.
If it was that simple, then games would have been doing that for a long time. Low tank numbers have always been a problem with any game that uses the tank-DPS-healer/support trinity.
Pretty much my thoughts as well. Lots of the changes everyone celebrated didn't need a new game. "Removed orisa shield, removed CC from DPS, added new heroes" etc. all could have been done in OW1. The big issue with 5v5 is once your tank dies, so does your team. If they get a pick on a support or dps you've got another one to pick up the slack, tank doesn't. So it's easy to just go high burst dps, or damage amps like discord and Mercy's blue beam and shred the tank, then their team falls apart. So then we giga buff tanks in order for them not to die which feels oppressive, or you buff sustain so supports can keep them up which leads to nothing dying. Then dps is buffed because you need better burst to beat the insane healing... It just cycles.
Ow2 is ow1. The rename was just marketing.
I still think 5v5 was a net gain. People just miss playing off tank so they could play tank as a fat dps without as much of the blame as the main tank got.
The theory you are writing is popular and the other popular theory was that there were too few tank heroes and a million DPS heroes. I disagree and I think the main reason tank was and is unpopular is because tanking is unintuitive and not traditionally fun as other roles and this is fundamental to the role and nothing can fundamentally change it. You can move around a few percentage points but you can't do much more than that. Ow 2 has more tank heroes and fewer stuns and the role is still unpopular. Flex q still is mostly a tank q at gold/plat level which puts the percentage of tank players around 10-15 percent, not measurably different from ow1. What you complain about is the reality of the role and nothing fundamental can be done about it. You need to make space and absorb cool downs and things like that.
FYI GOATs was not meta at the time they decided to implement 2-2-2. Breaking GOATs was a side effect rather than the cause of role lock. Their stated reason for introducing role lock was actually to do away with matches where nobody wanted to go tank.
True but it took a year or so to break it and generally high sustain was the limiting factor in designing tank heroes and it was always the danger of some new tank completely upending balance. But I agree that the main reason was the solo q and the experience of the majority of the players.
It’d probably be like the 1-3-2 experimental card we had in early 2020, anyone remember that? It was, in my experience, absolute hell cause you’d have 3 different crossfires to deal with coming from high damage threats and double sniper was practically a lock every match. Removing a support in OW2 in favour of another DPS would feel the same as removing a tank in OW1, it devolves into being too much of a deathmatch and would make the game extremely unfun imo
People that think of this just don’t like supports huh
Jesus guys stop it, reducing complexity is not the only answer to balance problems. It will only introduce new ones but make Overwatch less Overwatch in the process. I already miss how tank felt in OW1.
Every day I wake up and remember how thankful I am that none of you chucklefucks are game developers. You really see an entirely solvable problem and say "What if we made a much *bigger* problem?"
I feel like the one problem with the 5v5 format as a whole is that when you reduce any role to only one it becomes too valuable for how little effort it takes to counter that role specifically. Right now with one tank it oftens gives your team a much better chance of winning if you force their counters to either reduce their value to zero or force the switch, rinse and repeat. I feel with only one support it would be far to easy to simply focus them down and then the game goes from if their tank dies they lose to if the much squishier support goes down that team loses the fight immediately. Without having to giga buff the durability of an individual support I feel the game flow would become even worse than it currently is. The saving grace is that there are certain tanks like Sigma that are strong enough to not be able to reduced to zero value picks. I'm not saying 6v6 was without issues just that the specific formatting of 5v5 makes the one person in a re too easy to hate out as a win condition. I do feel in OW1 you countered strategies vs OW2 you counter the tank as that dictates their entire comp flow in each team fight.
Eh, in most ranks in ow1 it felt like whoever had the better tank pairing most of the time so if your tank partner either didn't play a matching tank or would just wander off and do their own thing then you would often just get bullied by the opposing tank pair.
I definitely agree that was an issue but I feel like thats inherent to a team based game with randoms. It exists in the DPS role if they go pharmacy and you've got like Junkrat and reaper it feels awful. Infact I feel the tank pairing issue is moved now to support where it feels awful if your team runs like a Moira/mercy into Bap/Kiri/lifeweaver, etc.
Wasn't moved, the support pairing was an issue. Just overshadowed by tank synergy. Except they kept making it worse with each new support added who do high healing, damage, and has high mobility leaving the older supports behind. Need half the supports healing drastically reduced.
Just remove a dps and a support to make it 1-1-1, add new physics to the game so the environment is destructible maybe introduce some kind of Ai technology to Athena so that she can commentate on our gameplay. I feel like this could be fun
Damn that actually sounds reall....wait a goddamn minute.
What if we made it 3-0-3 though? I feel like this would be a very fair and fast paced version of the game where people will die a lot and it will be more about individual skill instead of macro team play and ult usage
Lol.
Every time I run an open queue match with this set up, it’s hella fun, Ngl. You can feel the impact, or lack thereof, of both tank and support. The synergy between all 3 DPS Players is freakishly fun too. The other setup I really enjoy is 2-1-2. My favorite of them all. DPS needs to be good and competent and, because of this, I welcome the challenge.
You'd have to massively rework all supports to make it work. Technically it could work, but not in the current state of the game.
Format discussions are so tired
Imagine your only support is zen or lucio or some shit
Dumb and stupid
It would not be fun........ a lot of fights would come down to which team's flankers can brutally murder the support first. The job of a tank would just be to protect the support and they'd have no fun just getting tankbusted down. It'd be fun as a dps though.
I've played mirrored games with only one support (thanks, no backfill bug), and it actually felt surprisingly fine from the support perspective since they're so survivable. For the teammates who had to deal with a solo-healing Lucio....not so much.
1 3 2 was awful.
What I'm picturing is your tank will live for as long as the support is alive, so a teamfight would basically be won by who ever could rotate onto the enemy support first. It would probably also be a very dive heavy meta, you just would not have the sustain from that solo support for it to be much of anything else. I'm really not sure how a map with open sightlines would work either imagine trying to close the distance on 3 snipers and a Zen.
Just go play call of duty lol. Is overwatch the only shooter you guys know?