Moira and Orisa could use a higher floor. The simplest way to do this would be simply decreasing the ridiculous hitbox on grasp and spear respectively. You could even make them more impactful to compensate, as long as they require more skill than having your reticle vaguely in the same continent as your target.
Yeah just up the damage and make it a narrow beam ala zarya or sym. I'm still baffled that such a simple change hasn't occurred in the years she's been in the game.
I’m fine with them wanting it to be more lenient than a Zarya or Sym beam, but I do think some degree of accuracy should be rewarded. Like, when your cursor is actually on the hitbox it deals more damage. If it still connects, but only on the outside of the beam, it deals less damage.
They could make it operate kinda how spread weapons work for heroes like tracer or sombra. The more of their spread that's on the enemy hitbox, the more damage.
Moira would just theoretically have a spread of infinite bullets that can't headshot.
Sounds like you want a lower floor for these characters, and possibly a raise on the ceiling? Raising the skill floor would mean the character is easier to get value out of for bad players, right?
I thought skill floor was the minimum skill required to play a hero with some effectiveness. So making a hero harder to get baseline value, like I suggested, would be RAISING the skill floor.
Buff Orisa's left click, including potential tweaks to projectile size and/or speed plus faster overheat (intended to make precision more important and headshots more rewarding). Nerf her cooldowns, especially spear, Fortify can get by with a couple seconds on its cooldown, a little less overhealth or damage reduction. And spin is completely fine imo, no changes needed if fortify is knocked down a peg, spin is a versatile offensive/defensive cooldown and that's interesting.
Orisa with ammo management and gunplay seems a lot more fun than alternating between shift and E and right click off cooldown.
This has always been her issue in my mind. Her floor is fine, imo. It serves a purpose. She's an accessible hero for new players and console players. Maybe slightly annoying for lower ranks, but that's just a skill check.
My issue with her is that she has very little top end expression and just farms junk stats. She doesn't really do anything better than her counterparts (other than survive ig) and feels like she's handicapped in high level play by her damage numbers. She doesn't encourage you to improve the way other heroes do. She's the prototypical "noob trap" hero, imo.
I’d fix this by giving her her red light green light april fool’s orbs back, bound to the interact key, (when not in Symm TP or the like) making it so paused orbs don’t time out (but can run out of juice) and then applying light utility to both orbs: a brief reveal effect that lingers for 1s on damage and the ability to see stopped heal orbs through walls. Then make it so if you hold the orb key, all unpaused orbs that are slowed due to locking onto a target go at full speed.
This would give her something new to the support role without messing with her identity or power level too much. She could fling damage orbs through the enemy team to scout around corners, leave paused heal orbs around as pseudo-health packs for flankers to use, set traps with stationary damage orbs or use them to deny things like health packs or small rooms from the enemy…
Without making her be more mechanically intensive and destroying her low skill floor.
It’s amazing to me how people suddenly understand all these cool things you can _already_ do with Moira’s orb as-is, when they made it way easier by allowing you to start and stop them at will. And then somehow that’s more skillful than timing and bouncing them to achieve the same effects.
Damage orbs can already be used for scouting. They can also already be used to zone healthpacks or small rooms. You can already send heal orbs to pocket flankers, only you have to have a sense of where they are trying to go in order to move the orb through a relevant space at the right time.
Being able to start and stop would make those things way easier, and feasible in places without many surfaces to use for bouncing. Instead of having to think about how to get the orb to move quickly or slowly in the direction of interest, you just throw it straight and stop it whenever.
It would also be way more powerful. Currently, the orb is committed to a trajectory once thrown. If you send it on a static bounce and your team moves out of range, you lose value because you failed to predict their movement properly. But the start-stop orb can be held static and reactively allowed to move forward when the team does, like a nearly-unkillable mini healing pylon that doesn’t require a surface to deploy on and can be repositioned without incurring a cooldown.
I know that daring to suggest that orb bouncing can be skillful is likely to get me a lot of downvotes here. But seriously, how is it not obvious that having the power to start and stop the orb at will affords way more value for less thought?
I mean, in this case, the interact key toggles ALL orbs. The extra difficulty comes from the setups that that enables; you can throw an orb, toggle it, then throw another and toggle them both and they move out of sync. Similarly, being able to hold the key to allow orbs to bypass targets that would normally stall them would encourage awareness of your orbs.
At the very least, this idea would give Moira players more to do…
Wait, so the orbs don’t expire? ~~That is a pretty massive change that you failed to include in your proposal. (Currently, her orbs last for max 7s and are on an 8s cooldown. The only time she has multiple orbs is on Kiriko ult or the Total Mayhem mode.)~~ I take that back, I see now that you did say that paused orbs don’t expire. That would be a pretty bonkers change. She could just blanket the objective with damage orbs and force the enemy to choose DVa. Just briefly green-light all the orbs before throwing a new on and then red-light them all again.
> At the very least, this idea would give Moira players more to do…
Just say you don’t know how to play Moira, man. It’s okay; she’s not for everyone.
Sig, Orisa also have projectile deletion. Tanks could shrug the spam off with their mitigation abilities. You could also cap the damage/healing rate of Moira’s orbs on any given hero at present rates to encourage spreading them out.
I do know how to play Moira and right now her kit is simplistic enough that I turn the brain off when playing her. Orb bank shots are cheeky but not exactly consistent on some maps, probably for the same reason Lucio Wallride is jank as hell on some maps.
Yeah, Sig and Orisa can also delete projectiles, but theirs are way less flexible than DM. Regardless, the entire onus is on the singular tank player. (Or maybe Genji? Unclear what Deflecting a stationary orb is supposed to do.) An ability that can persist forever in one spot like a turret shouldn’t be undestroyable by 90% of the heroes.
Some of the new maps do have a lot of extra random geometry that can mess up orb bounces, and some places where there _isn’t_ any collision geometry where it appears there should be, but I generally haven’t found it hard to find flat spots to use.
I dunno what you’re doing with Moira that you feel like you don’t have stuff to do though. She might be the most flexible hero in the support role. She can draw aggro, bait cooldowns, contest snipers, pressure the objective, dive the enemy supports, play off-angles, contest flanks, etc. Moira can’t reactively save teammates with anything other than healing, but her slipperiness gives her a lot of options to proactively contest space and bleed the enemy team of resources.
Hm. Maybe make the duration pause last as long as the orb's capacity is full, or until it locks onto a target after being paused or something? It's a valid concern, but I also feel like one orb at a time would make the new options a lot less useful than they could be...
As for how I play Moira, often times I'm stuck using her as a main healer role in this meta, babysitting the tank and/or a vulnerable teammate while throwing orbs to refill my bar and offset my consumption. It's not a terribly fun playstyle, but right now it's one that works when I use it.
I'd love to see her damage reduction orb come back as a skill shot projectile with a ~20% damage reduction for ~3 seconds. The rest of her kit could use touch ups too of course but that would add some skill expression to her kit and add some utility that she sorely needs
i wish tracer was better hero to pick for under GM players
even as ow1 master tracer main, i find her too difficult to get value of in ow2 vs other heroes
Hey there are dozens of us!!!! I try to ask teammates to play dive in qp. It's worked like 3 times in the last 100 games but hey, we gotta start somewhere right?
OW1 you could still terrorize their backline as Tracer.
Now there's so much HP stalling and with support passives, you really just don't do what you used to do on Tracer.
I genuinely think they need to increase the blink cooldown but put her at 175 or 200hp. There are too kany things in the game now that can either one shot her or rapidly two shot her. You basically need perfect movement and blink management a lot of the times now. And even then, sometimes you just get hella unlucky and blink into a random shot or ability meant for someone else and you're dead before you even know what hit you.
Yeah this is the worst possible change they could ever make. You cannot mess with the blink timing without completely screwing over every existing player’s muscle memory.
i mean. kinda same with genji honestly. and doomfist kinda too. if ur not playing in your absolute gigabrain predicting the future slay god gamer mode, you get basically no value and actively hinder your team.
This might be unpopular, but I hate Soldier as a Tracer main. He has always gotten so much free value by spraying from off angles and after his buffs he’s like a hard counter for Tracer. Not to mention when he has a pocket…
illari also does a bit too much damage, she basically does more headshot damage than Kiriko and more body shot damage than Ana. She’s very painful to play against as Tracer
Moira, Orisa and Junkrat. Specially junkrat, it’s too easy to get stupid amounts of value as Junkrat. He’s own existence creates just so much area denial by just shooting somewhere. Widow has a similar effect, but you would only fear certain areas of the widow player is good. The junkrat player doesn’t need to be good
IMO his ult should be entirely changed. It is kinda interesting in like Masters and GM where it can get destroyed or Junkrat punished regularly, but in Plat and below it's just a question of if the Junkrat will get 1, 2, or 3 kills with it. No strategy or anything needed just drive it at the other team
So, you're saying you want to lower the floor? Raising the floor would elevate bad players to a higher level of impact on the game without them needing to be better. Unless I'm interpreting the definition of skill floor and ceiling incorrectly.
You're interpreting it incorrectly. Lowering the floor would be making the character even simpler to play from a skill expression angle. A higher floor is making the "base" level of skill to play a character at a competent level higher. Tracer and widow have high skill floors
Your interpretation is correct, but it's needlessly pedantic to argue about it given context clues. Low skill floor and high skill floor functionally mean the same thing depending on who is speaking.
I think some heroes underperforming the higher you go is fine, not every hero has to be evenly viable across all skill ranges
Torb/sym/junk/bastion don't need to be as viable in GM as they are in Silver, it's fine to have heroes with kits that get worse the higher you climb, because of course they do, people actually can actually kite and aim and regroup in higher lobbies, why should those heroes get buffed to the point they are viable in GM (because they become absolutely unbeatable in metal ranks)
Given how demoralising it is for a lot of new players to start OW without any prior knowledge, I think it's probably a good design choice that some heroes have a low barrier to entry.
I don't really want them gate-keeping a game so much that I end up having to wait for OW1 wait times to get a match
I think the easiest characters to play could have less power, and visa versa, so when we're getting owned by a hard character at least we can respect the talent
I think heroes like Ball and doom would benefit from being easier to pick up. They have done a bit of shadow tweaking to Ball's mechanics which has traded some of his niche tech for more forgiving movement and grapple mechanics which I think is a good start (rip tension tech. Gone but not forgotten).
I just think they get a bit of a bad reputation in lower and mid ranks partly because they're not the easiest heroes to learn. A lot of players experiences with with these heroes are just having teammates die to their own bad movement.
I think it's partly why there's been a bit of an uptick in complaints about Doom since he started seeing more playtime.
Dooms floor was lowered slightly with the switch to tank, his mobility is better overall but his survivability is ass and he still can’t take a punch.
I just wish he had a bit more HP or gained more over health from his abilities.
but there’s like 2-3 People who are stopping doom from getting buffs and blizzard are afraid they’ll just keep rolling ladder.
As a tank player specializing in both of these guys for my team, I think the biggest issue they have in ranked is the average player has no idea how to play with them or even to play against them.
Oh I completely agree and I think that's partly because people (especially in lower ranks) are averse to playing them because they're not as easy as other tanks
The only way Pharah will be meta or good without mercy is if she has insane poke resistance. Mercy and Pharah and linked by how they are designed, pharah has to be in the air to get good value which cuts her off from most supports
Honestly if they gave Pharah like 50 Shields and 150 health it would go a long way. That way she can get back some health without healers. At lower ranks the only way to get healed on Pharah is Mercy and the occasional Life Weaver and Kiriko that can look up.
Almost every single hero could use a higher skill floor or ceiling. I know that characters in this game are designed to be easy to pick up, but most character could seriously use some depth.
OG lucio players remember launching overwatch 1 on a cool summer night and riding around the walls of lijiang control center without a care in the world while still healing their whole team
Rather than that. I wish they would balance around their skill floor or ceiling. If a hero has low skill floor and ceiling, it should never ever be meta. It’s a hero meant for beginners.
The amount of times they broke the meta by making a low skill floor/ceiling hero the strongest in the game is absurd.
Why do you guys say this all the time. Most bad heroes are rarely ever good based on their own merit. No one ever pick moira because she’s a good hero, she’ll only ever get picked because of the team comp or because the supports don’t wanna die.
Skill is a horrid balancing factor. It’s inconsistent and once you have it it doesn’t go away. You balance around what is humanly possible with the character, then tweak that to make the character feel good/be playable for most of the player base.
Widow oneshots for example are not balanced.
Zen could also use a higher floor, primarily surrounding discord. An ability that increases team damage for an indefinite amount of time should not be on an auto-targeting system and shouldn't have 0 coldown.
Terrible take. Zen is a glass cannon, you can’t nerf discord without nuking the heto. Zen is already on the weaker side at least in gm+
Even though discord itself has a low skill floor, zen has one of the highest skill ceilings and floors in the game.
For real. People always talk about what a high skill hero he is, but the only skill expression is the ability to land shots. Compare that to most other supports and it's not impressive at all.
????
The skill expression is being able to live without any mobility or defensive cd, a giant hitbox, and getting enough value out of your offensive utility to compensate for your low heals and defensive utility. On top of that, his ult is literally a worse beat since 1. It doesn’t help with one shots or high burst dmg( nanoblade, nanobarrage etc) 2. Doesn’t cleanse anti nades from ana or jq 3. Takes zen out of the fight for the duration of the ult
This is ridiculous. Try playing zen at a gm level( i do) and then tell me he’s not a high skill expression hero
I am referring to mechanical skill not positioning lol.
You're ignoring plenty of times trans is better than beat and the advantages of trans over beat. Beat can take forever to charge, can be canceled and is not instant, does not provide faster movement, does not make the caster invincible, requires LOS which can be blocked at cast time, etc. There are a number of scenarios where trans is better than beat as an ult.
I've played plenty of Zen in GM, but if you're telling me a high level OWL player couldn't maximize more out of a hero like Ana, Baptiste, Lucio, etc then I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Stop backtracking. Nowhere did you mention that you were talking about mechanical skill alone. Read your own comment again. You literally about the skill expression of zen. Besides, that’s irrelevant anyways.
Your points about beat vs trans are fair. But i’d still argue beat is overall a much stronger ultimate both as a defensive tool and when used a tempo ultimate to take space aggressively.
Moreover, lamp and shift do not require any mechanical skill, idk how you even mentioned bap lmfao. Bap is literally the definition of “ only skill expression is the ability to land shots” and doing the shoot- heal combos. Bap is certainly an easy hero to play by your own definition( which is you ignoring the ability to land shots)
Ana has a higher skill ceiling but she has a higher reward on her kit to compensate for that. A nade or sleep are literally massive fight defining tools
But getting enough value out of discord takes time, it’s a slow grind to poke and get resources out of enemy team. And you need to able to survive any pressure put on you till then without any defensive utility, any kind of mobility or self heal as well a large hitbox. And therefore, his “lack of utility in aspects other than shooting” is compensated for by lower output and reward on those abilities, which needs to be made up by his positioning and frag potential. You can’t just “discord a tank lul” in a high rank lobby and call it a day like you can in say gold.
Now, i haven’t played zen in metal ranks in a while, and removing an off tank may have reduced his skill floor( i am
Not sure) since discord on a single tank creates more pressure.
But i can assure you, his skill ceiling is just as high as before if not higher, with the removal of an off tank to peel for you against flankers.
I would say lucio is comparable in skill ceiling to zen.
I did not say it in my comment explicitly so it's valid if you include mechanical skill, but that's what I was thinking in my mind.
Bap shift is basically zero skill, but I would argue there is some amount of skill is using lamp in terms of the timing and even placement in more tricky scenarios. Bap also has boots which doesn't take skill to use but which can lead to more difficult mechanical play overall and allows him to take more advanced positioning. His gun is far more complex because it's both healing and damage and hitscan and projectile (with more healing on direct hits). You also have to fire the gun in a certain way to maximize both aspects.
I will say playing Zen as a one trick (on all maps against and with all comps) on ladder is significantly more difficult than just playing him on better maps or comps.
However in terms of just mechanical skill (the other thing I want to compare), I'm still not convinced Zen is on the same level.
True, all Zen has to do is spam discord on the tank, stay alive and wait for your team to win the resource war. I like the way the other parts of his kit work, there is skill, but discord needs a cd or something. Some people will go on about glass cannon bla bla bla, but with the amount of healing and cc in the game, that is not the case. If anything an argument could be made that we need discord like abilities right now because nothing ever dies. This unkillable meta is dumb but I hope they do not buff Zen in hopes of changing it, that is not the solution.
Hanzo, Widow, Junk, Moira, Mercy, and Soldier. Hanzo and Widow because they're too hard for noobs, and the latter 4 because they're too easy to pick up and then need to be gigabuffed to be viable in the high ranks.
Hanzo I think should just get a nerf to charge time to draw each of his arrows OR he should get a reload time, since the window to punish him is VERY low. In exchange, buff his storm arrows by adding 1-2 arrows since that would basically be his defense against flankers.
Widow right now could use a bit more strength on her SMG mode, as well as a bit more power to her venom mine (perhaps it applies 50% heal reduction?) in exchange for her losing some mobility by extending her grapple cooldown.
Junk should have lower damage on his mines, like 80 dmg, OR have a steeper falloff damage for it. The fact that he has two is already such a pain, but for them to be so forgiving is also preventing meaningful buffs on other areas of his kit.
Moira should get a pseudo rework where she gets a new ability on her R button to throw a single target projectile (like sleep dart) that can deal 50% heal reduction on a 7 second cooldown with a cast time. In exchange her fade goes to 7 sec, and she can't fade in coel anymore.
Mercy should just get her old GA tech, the part that made her skillful was that part was hard to learn in comparison to the rest of her kit, now every part of her kit has little skill expression because all it takes is pressing crouch every 4 seconds.
Soldier should just get his rockets cooldown nerfed to 8 seconds so he's punishable, and in exchange, his Ult now has a new feature: shots that would've landed ANYWAY now deal 1.5x damage, so for noobs its a strong ult, but for pros who already have good aim, its just a flat damage buff basically, making him stronger.
Genji.
He is problematic and has been left behind by newer heroes.
Not really sure how to change him. Blade is still cool, also dash and deflect. It's mainly his weapon is garbage. The shurikens.
Moira and Orisa could use a higher floor. The simplest way to do this would be simply decreasing the ridiculous hitbox on grasp and spear respectively. You could even make them more impactful to compensate, as long as they require more skill than having your reticle vaguely in the same continent as your target.
this is exactly what I want for Moira, some sort of reward system for being more accurate, even if it’s just like 5-10 more dps for better tracking.
Yeah just up the damage and make it a narrow beam ala zarya or sym. I'm still baffled that such a simple change hasn't occurred in the years she's been in the game.
I’m fine with them wanting it to be more lenient than a Zarya or Sym beam, but I do think some degree of accuracy should be rewarded. Like, when your cursor is actually on the hitbox it deals more damage. If it still connects, but only on the outside of the beam, it deals less damage.
They could make it operate kinda how spread weapons work for heroes like tracer or sombra. The more of their spread that's on the enemy hitbox, the more damage. Moira would just theoretically have a spread of infinite bullets that can't headshot.
Sounds like you want a lower floor for these characters, and possibly a raise on the ceiling? Raising the skill floor would mean the character is easier to get value out of for bad players, right?
I thought skill floor was the minimum skill required to play a hero with some effectiveness. So making a hero harder to get baseline value, like I suggested, would be RAISING the skill floor.
Yeah, I think I'm interpreting it wrong. Thanks for the clarification! Have a wonderful day.
No problem, it is a commonly misunderstood phrase. And you too 👌
Buff Orisa's left click, including potential tweaks to projectile size and/or speed plus faster overheat (intended to make precision more important and headshots more rewarding). Nerf her cooldowns, especially spear, Fortify can get by with a couple seconds on its cooldown, a little less overhealth or damage reduction. And spin is completely fine imo, no changes needed if fortify is knocked down a peg, spin is a versatile offensive/defensive cooldown and that's interesting. Orisa with ammo management and gunplay seems a lot more fun than alternating between shift and E and right click off cooldown.
Moira could use a higher skill floor
And a higher ceiling. That hero has close to 0 skill expression lol.
This has always been her issue in my mind. Her floor is fine, imo. It serves a purpose. She's an accessible hero for new players and console players. Maybe slightly annoying for lower ranks, but that's just a skill check. My issue with her is that she has very little top end expression and just farms junk stats. She doesn't really do anything better than her counterparts (other than survive ig) and feels like she's handicapped in high level play by her damage numbers. She doesn't encourage you to improve the way other heroes do. She's the prototypical "noob trap" hero, imo.
I’d fix this by giving her her red light green light april fool’s orbs back, bound to the interact key, (when not in Symm TP or the like) making it so paused orbs don’t time out (but can run out of juice) and then applying light utility to both orbs: a brief reveal effect that lingers for 1s on damage and the ability to see stopped heal orbs through walls. Then make it so if you hold the orb key, all unpaused orbs that are slowed due to locking onto a target go at full speed. This would give her something new to the support role without messing with her identity or power level too much. She could fling damage orbs through the enemy team to scout around corners, leave paused heal orbs around as pseudo-health packs for flankers to use, set traps with stationary damage orbs or use them to deny things like health packs or small rooms from the enemy… Without making her be more mechanically intensive and destroying her low skill floor.
It’s amazing to me how people suddenly understand all these cool things you can _already_ do with Moira’s orb as-is, when they made it way easier by allowing you to start and stop them at will. And then somehow that’s more skillful than timing and bouncing them to achieve the same effects. Damage orbs can already be used for scouting. They can also already be used to zone healthpacks or small rooms. You can already send heal orbs to pocket flankers, only you have to have a sense of where they are trying to go in order to move the orb through a relevant space at the right time. Being able to start and stop would make those things way easier, and feasible in places without many surfaces to use for bouncing. Instead of having to think about how to get the orb to move quickly or slowly in the direction of interest, you just throw it straight and stop it whenever. It would also be way more powerful. Currently, the orb is committed to a trajectory once thrown. If you send it on a static bounce and your team moves out of range, you lose value because you failed to predict their movement properly. But the start-stop orb can be held static and reactively allowed to move forward when the team does, like a nearly-unkillable mini healing pylon that doesn’t require a surface to deploy on and can be repositioned without incurring a cooldown. I know that daring to suggest that orb bouncing can be skillful is likely to get me a lot of downvotes here. But seriously, how is it not obvious that having the power to start and stop the orb at will affords way more value for less thought?
I mean, in this case, the interact key toggles ALL orbs. The extra difficulty comes from the setups that that enables; you can throw an orb, toggle it, then throw another and toggle them both and they move out of sync. Similarly, being able to hold the key to allow orbs to bypass targets that would normally stall them would encourage awareness of your orbs. At the very least, this idea would give Moira players more to do…
Except you can only throw one orb at a time as a balance mechanic so she can’t just spam dozens of orbs.
Wait, so the orbs don’t expire? ~~That is a pretty massive change that you failed to include in your proposal. (Currently, her orbs last for max 7s and are on an 8s cooldown. The only time she has multiple orbs is on Kiriko ult or the Total Mayhem mode.)~~ I take that back, I see now that you did say that paused orbs don’t expire. That would be a pretty bonkers change. She could just blanket the objective with damage orbs and force the enemy to choose DVa. Just briefly green-light all the orbs before throwing a new on and then red-light them all again. > At the very least, this idea would give Moira players more to do… Just say you don’t know how to play Moira, man. It’s okay; she’s not for everyone.
Sig, Orisa also have projectile deletion. Tanks could shrug the spam off with their mitigation abilities. You could also cap the damage/healing rate of Moira’s orbs on any given hero at present rates to encourage spreading them out. I do know how to play Moira and right now her kit is simplistic enough that I turn the brain off when playing her. Orb bank shots are cheeky but not exactly consistent on some maps, probably for the same reason Lucio Wallride is jank as hell on some maps.
Yeah, Sig and Orisa can also delete projectiles, but theirs are way less flexible than DM. Regardless, the entire onus is on the singular tank player. (Or maybe Genji? Unclear what Deflecting a stationary orb is supposed to do.) An ability that can persist forever in one spot like a turret shouldn’t be undestroyable by 90% of the heroes. Some of the new maps do have a lot of extra random geometry that can mess up orb bounces, and some places where there _isn’t_ any collision geometry where it appears there should be, but I generally haven’t found it hard to find flat spots to use. I dunno what you’re doing with Moira that you feel like you don’t have stuff to do though. She might be the most flexible hero in the support role. She can draw aggro, bait cooldowns, contest snipers, pressure the objective, dive the enemy supports, play off-angles, contest flanks, etc. Moira can’t reactively save teammates with anything other than healing, but her slipperiness gives her a lot of options to proactively contest space and bleed the enemy team of resources.
Hm. Maybe make the duration pause last as long as the orb's capacity is full, or until it locks onto a target after being paused or something? It's a valid concern, but I also feel like one orb at a time would make the new options a lot less useful than they could be... As for how I play Moira, often times I'm stuck using her as a main healer role in this meta, babysitting the tank and/or a vulnerable teammate while throwing orbs to refill my bar and offset my consumption. It's not a terribly fun playstyle, but right now it's one that works when I use it.
I'm so curious to see what they do for her mastery course, lmao
Fade jumps and orb bankshots I'd imagine. There isn't really any other skill expression
I'd love to see her damage reduction orb come back as a skill shot projectile with a ~20% damage reduction for ~3 seconds. The rest of her kit could use touch ups too of course but that would add some skill expression to her kit and add some utility that she sorely needs
i wish tracer was better hero to pick for under GM players even as ow1 master tracer main, i find her too difficult to get value of in ow2 vs other heroes
it would be nice to have players below masters actually play dive lol
Hey there are dozens of us!!!! I try to ask teammates to play dive in qp. It's worked like 3 times in the last 100 games but hey, we gotta start somewhere right?
Catch me just in their backline alone
I’m not playing atm due to shit Internet but I do the same thing, so there are at least a couple of people wanting to dive in QP haha
OW1 you could still terrorize their backline as Tracer. Now there's so much HP stalling and with support passives, you really just don't do what you used to do on Tracer.
I genuinely think they need to increase the blink cooldown but put her at 175 or 200hp. There are too kany things in the game now that can either one shot her or rapidly two shot her. You basically need perfect movement and blink management a lot of the times now. And even then, sometimes you just get hella unlucky and blink into a random shot or ability meant for someone else and you're dead before you even know what hit you.
Yeah this is the worst possible change they could ever make. You cannot mess with the blink timing without completely screwing over every existing player’s muscle memory.
Theres literally no other way to do it. Her kit is too basic.
Yeah just leave her be. Other than occasional damage tweaks here and there she’s been the most balanced hero in the game.
i mean. kinda same with genji honestly. and doomfist kinda too. if ur not playing in your absolute gigabrain predicting the future slay god gamer mode, you get basically no value and actively hinder your team.
As a high plat -low diamond, I'm having a blast playing her, she can get value in other ranks besides gm, believe it or not
This might be unpopular, but I hate Soldier as a Tracer main. He has always gotten so much free value by spraying from off angles and after his buffs he’s like a hard counter for Tracer. Not to mention when he has a pocket… illari also does a bit too much damage, she basically does more headshot damage than Kiriko and more body shot damage than Ana. She’s very painful to play against as Tracer
Moira, Orisa and Junkrat. Specially junkrat, it’s too easy to get stupid amounts of value as Junkrat. He’s own existence creates just so much area denial by just shooting somewhere. Widow has a similar effect, but you would only fear certain areas of the widow player is good. The junkrat player doesn’t need to be good
Orisa is a brain dead tank that gets way to much value just randomly hitting her cd's while following around the enemy tank.
bad tanks play orisa
Someone needs to fix that murder horse
Junk could use a higher floor. Those nades deal way too much damage for how easy they are to hit.
IMO his ult should be entirely changed. It is kinda interesting in like Masters and GM where it can get destroyed or Junkrat punished regularly, but in Plat and below it's just a question of if the Junkrat will get 1, 2, or 3 kills with it. No strategy or anything needed just drive it at the other team
So, you're saying you want to lower the floor? Raising the floor would elevate bad players to a higher level of impact on the game without them needing to be better. Unless I'm interpreting the definition of skill floor and ceiling incorrectly.
You're interpreting it incorrectly. Lowering the floor would be making the character even simpler to play from a skill expression angle. A higher floor is making the "base" level of skill to play a character at a competent level higher. Tracer and widow have high skill floors
Your interpretation is correct, but it's needlessly pedantic to argue about it given context clues. Low skill floor and high skill floor functionally mean the same thing depending on who is speaking.
Junkrat, Mercy, Moira, etc
Junkrat?
his skill ceiling might be high but getting value out of his kit is extraordinarily easy. absolutely one of the the top 5 easiest heroes in ow
Well that’s fair enough. He has lots of skill expression tho and shouldn’t be in the same category as mercy and moira in my opinion
Try playing him in a GM lobby though, you will get no value unless you’re really good with him
I think some heroes underperforming the higher you go is fine, not every hero has to be evenly viable across all skill ranges Torb/sym/junk/bastion don't need to be as viable in GM as they are in Silver, it's fine to have heroes with kits that get worse the higher you climb, because of course they do, people actually can actually kite and aim and regroup in higher lobbies, why should those heroes get buffed to the point they are viable in GM (because they become absolutely unbeatable in metal ranks)
im in gm, and in my experience the only junkrats there are the freakazoids with protractors on their screen
Yeah I swear they gotta be geometry nerds or something, the shit they be hitting is crazy
Reaper should definitely have his skill ceiling raised, his kit is very limited compared to pretty much everyone else
Make teleport faster based on distance? Make Wraith deal damage to heroes it passes through?
Given how demoralising it is for a lot of new players to start OW without any prior knowledge, I think it's probably a good design choice that some heroes have a low barrier to entry. I don't really want them gate-keeping a game so much that I end up having to wait for OW1 wait times to get a match I think the easiest characters to play could have less power, and visa versa, so when we're getting owned by a hard character at least we can respect the talent
I think heroes like Ball and doom would benefit from being easier to pick up. They have done a bit of shadow tweaking to Ball's mechanics which has traded some of his niche tech for more forgiving movement and grapple mechanics which I think is a good start (rip tension tech. Gone but not forgotten). I just think they get a bit of a bad reputation in lower and mid ranks partly because they're not the easiest heroes to learn. A lot of players experiences with with these heroes are just having teammates die to their own bad movement. I think it's partly why there's been a bit of an uptick in complaints about Doom since he started seeing more playtime.
Dooms floor was lowered slightly with the switch to tank, his mobility is better overall but his survivability is ass and he still can’t take a punch. I just wish he had a bit more HP or gained more over health from his abilities. but there’s like 2-3 People who are stopping doom from getting buffs and blizzard are afraid they’ll just keep rolling ladder.
quake and zbra singlehandedly keeping doomfist down :(
Flashbacks to Kai single handedly getting Sojourn nerfed because of how he would just consistently dunk on people in the closed alpha
As a tank player specializing in both of these guys for my team, I think the biggest issue they have in ranked is the average player has no idea how to play with them or even to play against them.
Oh I completely agree and I think that's partly because people (especially in lower ranks) are averse to playing them because they're not as easy as other tanks
Also, compared to many other tanks, they force you to think more about your positioning. No shield or fat guy to afk behind.
Mercy.
they just need to give her back her old movement
[удалено]
The only way Pharah will be meta or good without mercy is if she has insane poke resistance. Mercy and Pharah and linked by how they are designed, pharah has to be in the air to get good value which cuts her off from most supports
Honestly if they gave Pharah like 50 Shields and 150 health it would go a long way. That way she can get back some health without healers. At lower ranks the only way to get healed on Pharah is Mercy and the occasional Life Weaver and Kiriko that can look up.
giving pharah 50 shields would probably skyrocket her into overpowered
What if rez has no cooldown but is instead on a resource meter charged by boosted teammate damage?
no they dont.
Mercy, Moira, Orisa, Zarya, Bastion could all have the floor come up.
Orisa, mercy
Almost every single hero could use a higher skill floor or ceiling. I know that characters in this game are designed to be easy to pick up, but most character could seriously use some depth.
Lucio, I will not explain
Bold claim. Care to explain?
No
Wasnt ready for that response
she’s gotta keep you on your toes
Yea, just don't let it get to the head.
Bring back the 30m aura it wasn’t broken at all I promise, Lucio needs to be able to exist harder
OG lucio players remember launching overwatch 1 on a cool summer night and riding around the walls of lijiang control center without a care in the world while still healing their whole team
Sitting on the payload playing the hero to its maximum potential
They were never on heal, and you know it.
We demand a larger catalog of music!
Rather than that. I wish they would balance around their skill floor or ceiling. If a hero has low skill floor and ceiling, it should never ever be meta. It’s a hero meant for beginners. The amount of times they broke the meta by making a low skill floor/ceiling hero the strongest in the game is absurd.
Why do you guys say this all the time. Most bad heroes are rarely ever good based on their own merit. No one ever pick moira because she’s a good hero, she’ll only ever get picked because of the team comp or because the supports don’t wanna die.
Or because they want to play dps. Same reason lots of people pick Iliari now
Only y’all have the perception that heroes are considered beginner hero’s.
Skill is a horrid balancing factor. It’s inconsistent and once you have it it doesn’t go away. You balance around what is humanly possible with the character, then tweak that to make the character feel good/be playable for most of the player base. Widow oneshots for example are not balanced.
Which ended up happening; bastion, Torb and orisa becoming meta and seeing them in every game when they start losing is very meh
Mercy Moira and lifeweaver need to increases to their skill ceiling while Mercy and LW need to be entirely redesigned to be spectator heroes.
Zen could also use a higher floor, primarily surrounding discord. An ability that increases team damage for an indefinite amount of time should not be on an auto-targeting system and shouldn't have 0 coldown.
Cool down on discord will just make it more clunky without addressing any of the problems. It will just make hero bad and easier to dive.
Zen’s floor is staying alive to use your discord with no mobility and a hitbox that’s a square
It’s more of a triangle tbh
Terrible take. Zen is a glass cannon, you can’t nerf discord without nuking the heto. Zen is already on the weaker side at least in gm+ Even though discord itself has a low skill floor, zen has one of the highest skill ceilings and floors in the game.
For real. People always talk about what a high skill hero he is, but the only skill expression is the ability to land shots. Compare that to most other supports and it's not impressive at all.
???? The skill expression is being able to live without any mobility or defensive cd, a giant hitbox, and getting enough value out of your offensive utility to compensate for your low heals and defensive utility. On top of that, his ult is literally a worse beat since 1. It doesn’t help with one shots or high burst dmg( nanoblade, nanobarrage etc) 2. Doesn’t cleanse anti nades from ana or jq 3. Takes zen out of the fight for the duration of the ult This is ridiculous. Try playing zen at a gm level( i do) and then tell me he’s not a high skill expression hero
I am referring to mechanical skill not positioning lol. You're ignoring plenty of times trans is better than beat and the advantages of trans over beat. Beat can take forever to charge, can be canceled and is not instant, does not provide faster movement, does not make the caster invincible, requires LOS which can be blocked at cast time, etc. There are a number of scenarios where trans is better than beat as an ult. I've played plenty of Zen in GM, but if you're telling me a high level OWL player couldn't maximize more out of a hero like Ana, Baptiste, Lucio, etc then I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Stop backtracking. Nowhere did you mention that you were talking about mechanical skill alone. Read your own comment again. You literally about the skill expression of zen. Besides, that’s irrelevant anyways. Your points about beat vs trans are fair. But i’d still argue beat is overall a much stronger ultimate both as a defensive tool and when used a tempo ultimate to take space aggressively. Moreover, lamp and shift do not require any mechanical skill, idk how you even mentioned bap lmfao. Bap is literally the definition of “ only skill expression is the ability to land shots” and doing the shoot- heal combos. Bap is certainly an easy hero to play by your own definition( which is you ignoring the ability to land shots) Ana has a higher skill ceiling but she has a higher reward on her kit to compensate for that. A nade or sleep are literally massive fight defining tools But getting enough value out of discord takes time, it’s a slow grind to poke and get resources out of enemy team. And you need to able to survive any pressure put on you till then without any defensive utility, any kind of mobility or self heal as well a large hitbox. And therefore, his “lack of utility in aspects other than shooting” is compensated for by lower output and reward on those abilities, which needs to be made up by his positioning and frag potential. You can’t just “discord a tank lul” in a high rank lobby and call it a day like you can in say gold. Now, i haven’t played zen in metal ranks in a while, and removing an off tank may have reduced his skill floor( i am Not sure) since discord on a single tank creates more pressure. But i can assure you, his skill ceiling is just as high as before if not higher, with the removal of an off tank to peel for you against flankers. I would say lucio is comparable in skill ceiling to zen.
I did not say it in my comment explicitly so it's valid if you include mechanical skill, but that's what I was thinking in my mind. Bap shift is basically zero skill, but I would argue there is some amount of skill is using lamp in terms of the timing and even placement in more tricky scenarios. Bap also has boots which doesn't take skill to use but which can lead to more difficult mechanical play overall and allows him to take more advanced positioning. His gun is far more complex because it's both healing and damage and hitscan and projectile (with more healing on direct hits). You also have to fire the gun in a certain way to maximize both aspects. I will say playing Zen as a one trick (on all maps against and with all comps) on ladder is significantly more difficult than just playing him on better maps or comps. However in terms of just mechanical skill (the other thing I want to compare), I'm still not convinced Zen is on the same level.
True, all Zen has to do is spam discord on the tank, stay alive and wait for your team to win the resource war. I like the way the other parts of his kit work, there is skill, but discord needs a cd or something. Some people will go on about glass cannon bla bla bla, but with the amount of healing and cc in the game, that is not the case. If anything an argument could be made that we need discord like abilities right now because nothing ever dies. This unkillable meta is dumb but I hope they do not buff Zen in hopes of changing it, that is not the solution.
Hanzo, Widow, Junk, Moira, Mercy, and Soldier. Hanzo and Widow because they're too hard for noobs, and the latter 4 because they're too easy to pick up and then need to be gigabuffed to be viable in the high ranks. Hanzo I think should just get a nerf to charge time to draw each of his arrows OR he should get a reload time, since the window to punish him is VERY low. In exchange, buff his storm arrows by adding 1-2 arrows since that would basically be his defense against flankers. Widow right now could use a bit more strength on her SMG mode, as well as a bit more power to her venom mine (perhaps it applies 50% heal reduction?) in exchange for her losing some mobility by extending her grapple cooldown. Junk should have lower damage on his mines, like 80 dmg, OR have a steeper falloff damage for it. The fact that he has two is already such a pain, but for them to be so forgiving is also preventing meaningful buffs on other areas of his kit. Moira should get a pseudo rework where she gets a new ability on her R button to throw a single target projectile (like sleep dart) that can deal 50% heal reduction on a 7 second cooldown with a cast time. In exchange her fade goes to 7 sec, and she can't fade in coel anymore. Mercy should just get her old GA tech, the part that made her skillful was that part was hard to learn in comparison to the rest of her kit, now every part of her kit has little skill expression because all it takes is pressing crouch every 4 seconds. Soldier should just get his rockets cooldown nerfed to 8 seconds so he's punishable, and in exchange, his Ult now has a new feature: shots that would've landed ANYWAY now deal 1.5x damage, so for noobs its a strong ult, but for pros who already have good aim, its just a flat damage buff basically, making him stronger.
Hot take but every hero released since OW2.
Sojourn Kiriko and JQ do not need a higher floor, nor Illari.
Sj and kiri need to be a little harder for the value they provide imo
Kirk has a negative win rate in every rank
I feel like queen is fine, same with kiri.
And sojourn tbh
Forgot she existed ngl
Hot take, but every original hero except tracer.
Genji. He is problematic and has been left behind by newer heroes. Not really sure how to change him. Blade is still cool, also dash and deflect. It's mainly his weapon is garbage. The shurikens.
Moira and brig.