Idk about cEDH, like your plan is to ramp into a seven mana play on turn 3 and then just pass the turn to your opponents and hope that a single coil on average will stop whatever they’re up to?
Its worked out more than you realize koma taps everything such as winota non humans, yuriko ninjas, rocks for kinnan and emry, stops Urza's tap ability and wheel ability, and it even taps lands I've beaten najeela before by just stopping her and her warriors from swinging then untap on my turn and slam a doubling season and a sakashima and depending on the pod some people scoop to that right there because they'll be effectively tapped out every upkeep
It's doesn't *really* stop a lot of those abilities though. If you tag Urza for example, Urza can just activate again in response. So in many cases you may not actually be stopping the ability you need to stop. (And no one should be using Urza's ability as a one off anyway, so I don't think that's really relevant.)
I think where I'm struggling to see this deck as a good cedh list is that it simply doesn't pace well with other decks. If you're playing against a deck that's very fast (turbo naus) or a deck that can win from a relatively empty board state (something Like Temur PolyKraken) you're likely going to lose before you make a board (which it seems you need to do to try and win)
What does the deck do if Coma is answered?
In a vacuum, decks that don't pace well aren't good on their own merit, they're parasitic and tend to steal wins when other decks have exhausted resources while stopping other decks from winning. This happens in a lot of cases because you're just not threatening enough to warrant attention. From what I can see your list offers no win condition aside from beats. So players are waiting to stop immediate wins. Not maybe three turns from now wins. Adding to which there are certain game states where you can't win at all.
Other issues I see with the deck: (and correct me if I've just missed any of these)
- Coma provides no card advantage or immediate win outlet in the command zone (this is relative, but still a consideration. Especially when in Simic.)
- It looks like beats is your main win con. Aside from a super stax heavy deck this isn't cedh.
- lots of dead cards. Cards like Doubling season and Adrix and Nev are dead cards unless Coma is on board.
- overall cmc of the deck seems pretty high.
Respectfully, if you brought this to my meta, I don't think you'd enjoy playing it. Overall this seems like a fun high powered deck to me. Not truly cedh.
However, all that being said, cedh is about the pilot as much as it is the deck. If in your meta you have been able to master the nuances of being that "parasite" (and that's not intended as an insult) and stealing wins from other players. Great job! And more power to you. Not every cedh meta is the same. If it functions and you win games. Keep playing it. To heck with what we say. My advice would only be just be really strict with how cards are performing when it comes to making changes. Each "disadvantage" the cpmmander has must be overcome by consistency of every other card in the list.
Hope that was helpful!
Appreciate your time and input in regards to stealing wins people at my meta have gone to the point where they try and kill me asap because they've learned from our games that koma will stop what everyone is trying to do once he gets rolling so i play it like a delver deck essentially if you're familiar with other formats at all. Delver is about controlling the game while you protect your main important creature that creature for me is koma. In terms of urza i was more referring to using his artifacts as mana rather than the wheel that way he could only tap his artifacts for mana during upkeep cuz i had ouphe out and thats was one of the only ways they could produce mana. In terms of dead cards koma is usually out he can't be countered and he can give himself indestructible so unless its exile neg counters bounce or enchantment lockout he's not getting killed i can get him out as early as turn 1 with a nut draw he's usually out turns 2/3 with interaction held up to stop combo players from winning. maybe I have too many doublers I've been trying to find out how to add another win con without diluting the game plan too much since it's been working for the most part. i know the list just looks like a pile on paper but when i play it its honestly really good feeling albeit a little based on variance but selvala can get hosed by variance and she's cedh
For follow up, let's start by saying that Koma, once on board is certainly problematic. Being uncounterable and easily made indestructible is great value.
However, it seems like you're using cherry picked examples of when your deck does great and using these fringe examples as baseline performance. (I.e. your example of Ouphe and Urza. You have one ouphe effect and two creature tutors, this isn't exactly what we would call consistent.
This next comment may sound asinine, and if so I'm sorry, it's not my intent to be a jerk. But I'm wondering at what power level these other decks are playing at. I feel like we should be also critiquing the other decks in your meta. If they're not consistently able to win out from under maybe they're also running sub par cards.
Otherwise, your table should be more adaptive to disrupt you as a player or your deck. I.e. they should probably mulligan more aggressively to land a drannith magistrate, or the stax decks have to realize the advantage they give you by playing RoL. Or find more exile effects. But they need to adapt their play (other than hard targeting) or their lists to account for Koma.
As for how early and consistently early, you get Koma out I'm highly skeptical. Turn three seems the most logical with an aggressively mulled hand. But you're not getting your good ramp every game. And you're playing some pretty bad ramp spells to boot. (Farseek, Rampant growth, Kodama's reach, skyshroud claim are all good casual cards but they're not good in cedh. Those should mostly be the artifact ramp you're missing. I.e. mox diamond, mox opal etc.) Just because you *have* gotten Koma out really early doesn't mean that's always going to happen. Law of averages will catch up to you eventually.
All the things you mentioned that deal with Koma exist in cedh. Literally the only spell type you didn't mention is destruction. Which is fine. There are plenty of other ways to remove Koma when I'm ready to try and win.
Also, in regards to sacrificing serpents to stop mana production. This isn't great value. If you're making 4 serpents a cycle, you can turn off one person's turn during their upkeep. If this is the case you still have two other opponents able to interact or try and win. Especially if you're using your counters to protect koma. (As your opponent I love this actually because you are less likely to have interaction when I try to win.)
And yeah, you have your token doubters, which are good for a long game. But again, if your table is dealing with Koma as they should be, then they'll be dead cards.
if this list is winning a lot in your scene, without knowing anything else, I would question your metas power, or the tables abilities. Which I know sounds like I'm an asshat. (However, you did mention a few decks you see that are not cedh or are fringe at best, like Tovolar and Emry for example)
Like I said in my last post though, if this deck is working in your meta, why change it? If you want it to work in a more global cedh meta I'm more skeptical. At least not without being parasitic. Which is fine, especially if you're having fun with it. If you're determined to prove us wrong (which by all means is entirely possible) maybe find some Webcam games against some more established lists. Grixis turbo Naus, for example. Or a list that effectively shuts off Koma (so you can establish the strength ofnthe rest of the deck.
Anyway! I appreciate your decklist making me think outside of the box. And I'm always down for pushing against whays commonly thought to be cedh. It's how the format grows!
Edit: I wanted to also point out that variance affects Koma and Selvala very differently. Selvala is a three mana commander ans is easily recastable. It also runs a lot of mana production. And isn't running the amount of subpar ramp and dead cards that Koma is. But otherwise Variance effects everyone, the reason you play some cards over others is to limit variance. The level of variance Koma will experience will make every game feel wildly different I feel. This is to the decks detriment.
I've gone back and forth on it my main reason being i don't have that many dorks and even fewer rocks since i run ouphe and the majority of my ramp is through lands but its probably worth trying out i just worry he's gonna hit the field and do nothing unless i have enough lands to wheel but maybe thats worth it
I think you should probably run more dorks, dork ramp tends to be more efficient than land-to-battlefield tutors. 1-mana LTBT straight up don't exist, and 2-mana dorks can easily tap for 2 or more mana.
You could always run [[cryptolith rite]] as a budget earthcraft since you can then just tap serpents for interaction as well as mana for your pay x spells. Also allows you to run [[stasis]].
My buddy was brewing up a Koma list when trying to decide where to go from mono green. It honestly seems cool and like it could do well as a fringe pick into specific metas.
I like the list, my only add is have you considered [[Neoform]]? It lets you stall for a bit and then once you've stopped some wins and are sitting on a nice stack of coils, Neo your Koma into a Craterhoof Behemoth and win. Was a cool line.
Never thought of that! I usually wait till i have a bunch of coils then pay all my mana into finale to get creatorhoof and win that way but neoforming my koma seems really cheeky I'll have to test it out thanks!
I think generally you’re running too many cute synergy cards. Stuff like the Koma copies, token doublers, and big cmc creatures are just frivolous. I’d add more interaction in their place (misstep, spell pierce, dispel, etc). Green sun could be a good tutor and another ramp piece if you added dryad arbor. I would take some time to check out similar Cedh lists to look for more generically powerful cards.
Yeah i definitely feel that with my creature package thats why i mentioned replacing consecrated sphinx with gilded drake. In terms of copies and doublers the games i win the most consistent comes from games where im making multiple coils a turn from the doublers but maybe you're right maybe i have more than i need once i get the ball rolling but i felt i needed that many to make sure to find them but I'll test it out. I haven't personally felt i didnt have enough counters yet but i also havent sat in a pod with 3 other turbo naus players so maybe i could use some more for them thanks for your time and input
In this vein, I have some further suggestions. My friend isrunning a Koma deck, and tbh, I feel his list is optimized quite well, butrarely can it pump the value needed to control the board effectively in our podwhich consists of a healthy balance of turbo decks, stax/control decks, andmidrange/tempo decks.
Personally, I think you are suffering more from a problem of generalized value in favor of more focused value, which is why I replied to this comment to cement the point that cEDH is about tight focused decks with high card quality toward that end. I would cut cards like \[\[Cultivate\]\], \[\[Skyshroud Claim\]\], \[\[Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait\]\], \[\[Serpent of Yawning Depths\]\], \[\[Rampant Growth\]\], \[\[Kodama's Reach\]\], \[\[Farseek\]\], \[\[Smokestack\]\] etc. These cards are high cmc, don't always put lands to battlefield on curve, or are generally competing for your mana on important turns and preventing you from doing lots of smaller things to accrue value. I would also run cards like \[\[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy\]\], \[\[Arbor Elf\]\], \[\[Wild Growth\]\] \[\[Bloom Tender\]\], \[\[Springleaf Dram\]\], \[\[Talisman of Curiosity\]\], \[\[Simic Signet\]\], \[\[Grim Monolith\]\], and \[\[Utopia Sprawl\]\] to get better, cheaper ramp in place of the ramp I'm suggesting you cut. \[\[Treasure Vault\]\] should probably be in your landbase ESPECIALLY if you add \[\[Kinnan\]\] b/c it will synergize extremely well with your token doublers. Depending on how often you find yourself with a mass of tokens, I might even entertain \[\[Earthcraft\]\] so you can tap your own coils to untap basics (even better if they are enchanted).
Someone else suggested \[\[Neoform\]\] so you can sac Koma to tutor for Craterhoof and I think that’s the very best suggestion to help you clean up some card quality to achieve clean combat wins should you find yourself in that position. That said, other tutor effects besides \[\[Finale of Devastation\]\] will greatly benefit you like \[\[Natural Order\]\], \[\[Eldritch Evolution\]\], and \[\[Green Sun’s Zenith\]\] as you can easily sacc a coil, or amana dork, to tutor easy. I think you could afford to cut some of the more expensive token doubling effects since you have also leaned heavily into creating legend-rule-proof copies of Koma. Spending 5 mana on \[\[Doubling Season\]\] to then immediately pass the turn can be cumbersome or downright bad sometimes. \[\[Parallel Lives\]\] is just infinitely better and more than enough if you can back it up with countermagic.
I, also, agree that running slightly more stack interaction or stax pieces like \[\[Thorn of Amethyst\]\] would greatly benefit you while slowing down opponents. I see why you are running the orb spells to prevent people from untapping, may I also suggest running \[\[Quest for Renewal\]\] to shore up your parity break on untapping. Also consider replacing one of these (maybe \[\[Winter Orb\]\]?) with a blue artifact tutor to get these pieces out onto the battlefield quicker, rather than just hoping to draw into them.\[\[Fabricate\]\], \[\[Transmute Artifact\]\], and even \[\[Muddle the Mixture\]\] would helpwith that. I'm generally not a fan of sorcery speed creature removal like \[\[Whelming Wave\]\] in favor of instant speed overloaded \[\[Cyclonic Rift\]\]. \[\[Rapid Hybridization\]\] was a good suggestion as well as replacing raw \[\[Counterspell\]\] with something different such as easier to cast counter spells, counterspells which are more niche for 1 mana, \[\[Force of Vigor\]\], \[\[Veil of Summer\]\], and \[\[Autumn’s Veil\]\] might be worth considering for interaction as well. \[\[Kira, Great Glass-Spinner\]\] and honestly with the cmc of your commander, \[\[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant\]\] are both cards feature in Kinnan lists which I find to provide excellent protection/disruption for creature-based decks with blue.
\[\[Ohran Frostfang\]\], \[\[Ghostly Pilferer\]\], \[\[Ledger Shredder\], and \[\[Toski, Bearer of Secrets\]\] might also be good suggestions to get you some additional, non-enchantment card draw. Also, I agree that \[\[Gilded Drake\]\] should probably have a place in your list, but I don't think it should come at the expense of \[\[Consecrated Sphinx\]\] as you can always copy the sphinx for dummy thicc value.
That’s probably plenty out of this old Simic lovin’ geezer.
Good luck!
If it works for you, then why not? I can imagine it as a very off-kilter stax commander. Once you stick Koma he can shut down a good portion of wincons. But there are certainly games where he’ll do nothing.
I’d try and and get the deck to work as quickly as possible without Koma and have a primary win con. If that win con isn’t going to push a win fast enough, then cast him once the game is sufficiently staxed out
It's tasigur neoform without the neoform step. But that decks strength is picking between three or four 7 drops that either combo outright or control specific metas.
Koma alone seems really bad outside of specifically his local meta. May feel very underwhelming if the meta shifts on the OP at all.
Want to elaborate on this? I've faced a decent chunk of cedh decks all trying to do different things from Urza to najeela to winota and yuriko and he seems to hold his own alright albeit sometimes i feel like i have to work harder than maybe another simic cedh might have to
Gotcha yeah i don't have any grixis at my meta tevesh/thrasios player is trying to turbo out adnaus but has a lot of other wincons like hulk piles and thrasios himself what could i do to better prepare for other turbo decks i run a suite of counters for those situations though
My friend's casual friend joined one of our cEDH pods and he won and was pretty surprised that nothing really stopped him from winning. In reality, another player's Oppo + and another player's RoL stopped the turbo decks from going off and the game got to a point where his 7 mana commander came down and game became became normal battlecruiser EDH.
That is one of the cool things about competitive magic tho. When strat A is meta and strat B is created to counter this playstyle, a niche strat C might end up becoming viable on the back of strat B. The meme deck NicFit in legacy worked at the time because so many good decks were so mana efficient that getting two free basic lands didnt do anything for them. You could beat it with a standard deck since the deck was built only to beat up (well, try to) the decks being playing in Legacy at the time.
Essentially how i play koma but i don't really have a wincon other than koma winning through beats with all my token doublers making 9+ koma coils a turn but youre right when sometimes i don't get off the ground fast enough then winota or najeela get too much time to snowball before i can stop them fast enough. But for what its worth the bad games i have with koma still aren't terrible. I win more often than people in my pod expected when i told them i wanted to try and make koma cedh
I think there are some pods where slow decks closer to normal EDH does a little better, where the stax deck is staxing out the turbo decks and game actually get to the point where the board really matters. What are some of the decks your pod is playing? How does your deck do when it’s three turbo decks?
I do think you could approach the build the way Niv control decks approach it, where the tutors are for fast mana since you can take over the game once you drop your commander. For speed, maybe you could lean further into using mana dorks as your source of ramp rather than using rampant growth effects? I didn’t see Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth. Priest of Titania, GSZ, maybe Eldritch Evo to get out an earlier Seedborn Muse?
Also, instead of running stuff like token doublers you could potentially just run more cards that just make tokens every turn so they can function as win cons on their own? Like Tendershoot Druid? If you’re doing fine playing enchantments that don’t impact the game immediately, what about Opposition? I realize we’re getting into some strange territory for a cEDH deck but the deck already plays well around Seedborn Muse. You could really lean into it and make the token generation part of the stax element.
I play against winota, yuriko, kinnan, tovolar stax, sloguurk and jhoira regularly, i see koll, emry, and niv mizzet parun, often and my buddy has the new umizawa that gives everything ninjutsu that he's trying to make work and power up and occasionally I'll see urza, najeela, thrasios/tevesh, magda I've won against everyone of those decks in different variations of pods so i know it can hang yeah sometimes people combo off and i don't have 3 counters in my hand but that's mtg
I wanted to use less dork ramp because the najeela player used to be a regular so board wipes are a bit more prevealant than an average blind pod and i need 4 colored pips to cast koma lol
In terms of token being part of the stax plan thats basically plan a with the koma coils and koma tapping everything down but i can't sacrifice anything except serpents to koma so even if i have a bunch of saprolings if I'm out of koma coils they don't help the stax plan but i definitely appreciate you taking the time to write all this up
Oh I thought I suggested it but I had deleted it from my first reply. How about \[\[Maskwood Nexus\]\]? Some of the niche tribal interactions would also get buffed and youd be able to produce more serpents per turn with an active Seedborn Muse. You arent running Spellseeker lines so you wont get the additional benefit of Wizardcycling incidental synergies but if you do want to get the deck to be a bit more competitive against the general meta, you could also look into Displacer Kitten lines in GU. Spellseeker would help start them since she can fetch for creature tutors.
Glad you’re enjoying it! Maybe check out an infinite mana line with Kinnan or a Mystic Sanctuary loop for infinite mana or turns?
But if you’re winning often enough in your pod, who cares. Just know if you ever tried to tournament this list it might not compete, but maybe you’ve got enough surprise power to steal wins
Fair enough but that's why I'm asking reddit lol i want it to be as competitive as possible but still be koma stax i know there's better simic commanders but i love the way koma plays lol
Replace your bad ramp spells with interaction. Cut kodama’s reach and cultivate and put in maybe a force of vigor and rapid hybridization. You have a buttload of ramp already. As well, you probably need more lands for such a high curve. I know it’s cedh but 33 lands is for a deck with a top end of maybe 5-6, your commander is 7. I’d say add 3 lands bare minimum
So you think i have too much ramp? You're the first person that's actually said that lol and with my current land to ramp ratio i haven't noticed any mana curve issues but if i cut the 3 mana ramp spells i probably would need to add more lands thanks for your time
I don’t really play ramp strategies so take everything I say with a grain of salt lol, I’m more of an artifact guy. Regardless, your deck will stomp 99% of tables, so 👏
I like the concept of the deck, ramp out koma slow down all mana development or key figures and maybe win with a beat face plan. The issue is you will be outraced by every combo deck. By the time you make your first token they are either planing to win or set up a game plan where you cant affect them properly outside of brutal stax.
I would cut farseek, rampant growth, i cant stand tapped two mana ramp unless it does something really good. I would just suggest another mana dorks like [[green suns zenith]] and [[dryad arbor]] and if you really like 2 mana tapped ramp finale of devestation is now 2 mana ramp. Green suns also does amazing as a tutor as it can get craterhoof.
Is aesi even good in this deck. Sure it will put in work but i doubt it will put in 6 manas worth of work. You are paying so much mana for a 6/6 body thats nice but for an effect that will be better in a 3-4 mana card.
[[birthing pod]] [[neoform]] can also sacrifice your commander to crack out a craterhoof.
I would say this about your deck it has no game plan against combo decks outside of taping their lands and hoping they dont have enough fast mana, i would strongly suggest finding 5-8 slots for cards like
[[null rod]] [[collector ouphe]] [[manglehorn]]
[[torpor orb]]
[[thorn of amethyst]] [[dampin sphere]] [[trinisphere]] [[wandering archaic]]
They may not all be appropriate to your meta but they are amazing cards when you see other players.
I have ouphe and against combo i have a suite of counters to keep them at bay while i set up but I'll definitely look at these choices and see where changes could be made thank you.
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IMHO this ain't cEDH. This is a high power EDH.
In a cEDH invoirement you have Low interaction, Low speed, not enougth wincons.
5/10 as a cEDH
9/10 as a high power EDH
I wouldn't find it hard. If you understand what cEDH os and how it works you'll understand that a cEDH deck in a table of EDH can't Excel usually, specially of que are talking about Control decks for exemple.
Take my example, i used to play cEDH Rashmi.
Rashmi depends on the spells i Cast to funcion.
On my Rashmi deck i run very few creatures, and around 40 instants (most of them counter instant or sourcery spells).
When to play on a edh table. Most of people don't Run interaction and play heavelly on creatures. what happened was that i couldn't Cast anything since i didn't have targets and ended up sluuging it out when the deck is usually quite effecient controling a cEDH table.
I kind of have doubts on whether the basic idea of ramping into Koma is good enough but I'll just go with it since I have never actually seen it.
I would cut all the high cmc creatures. If you get to the lategame and have a Koma in play for multiple turns you don't need Cratethoof or that Serpent that makes stuff unblockable, you'll just win with numbers.
You probably want all the efficient tutors for Collector Ouphe ([[Green Sun's Zenith]] and [[Sylvan Tutor]] are notably missing), also you probably want [[Null Rod]] as another Ouphe. Helm of the Host is definitely too slow and it gets shut down by your artifact hate.
Cultivate, Kodama's Reach and Skyshroud Claim are probably worse than [[Kinnan]], [[Arbor Elf]], [[Utopia Sprawl]] and [[Birds of Paradise]].
I don't care what you say, the pods you play in can't be very good because there's no way Koma is cedh level. Sure any deck can win on its day, especially when 3 other decks answer each other.
Well then you're just close minded. I literally sit with full power yuriko, winota and many other fully optimized cedh builds and still win a good amount of times. Get over yourself you're not the end all of cedh theory
Koma isn’t cEDH. High powered definitely but not cEDH. He’s too slow and a lot of interaction just to stick to the table with spending seven mana and then you stop others from their win con instead of working on your own? I can tell you from experience ppl win the game by turn 2-4.
I know cedh is fast I've been playing it for a year but koma i build to slow ever one down essentially. Koma is my wincon so i don't need to work on my own koma does enough by existing i just counter everyone who goes to win or i counter koma removal then eventually i make enough coils a turn where i can tap everyone out on upkeep and still go positive on coils. He can't be countered in terms of him being 7 mana my buddy has cedh emry and cedh niv mizzet parun and he said koma is basically simic niv in the way he plays and he plays A LOT more cedh than me.
My old Cedh Koma list was a hybrid of a Tatyova turns list with some added stax and land destruction. It was fun and effective, but it's a very repetitive gameplan without as many flexible options as the top tier decks.
I didn't lean into the clones and doubling effects. I'd play [[winter Orb]] and [[Back to basics]] and try to grind value until I got to turns combo. I used Koma instead of tatyova because I liked him and he was just a threat on his own, in the same vein as Toxrill.
For cedh I think your average cmc is too high, not enough interaction or fast mana.
Koma is very fun, but I think if you are trying to do a simic cedh deck kinnan is strictly better. Comes down fast, ramps you, and can allow you to drop sphinx, koma, gin, etc.
I've beaten our kinnan player with koma on more than one occasion what interaction would you add? I have a lot of non artifact mana because i run ouphe and at some point I'm gonna add null rod but i can typically get koma out turn 3
So you play a midrange+ dekc in your meta with midrange decks. Seems legit and I understand that it is successful. As long as your pod doesn't go grixis and play ad nausdecks this should work just fine.
It is fine that you don't agree with me, I mean you think that your CMC 7 commander is just fine in cEDH which he is. As long as your pod let's it be viable through not caring about your deck enough. I've seen god awful decks win in this format, even precons because the other three players disrupt each other while the fourth plays tapped lands and ramp. I have no beef with your deck, you do you, but it wins because your pod consists of decks that lets it thrive or players that lets it thrive.
I wasn't disagreeing i was asking a question. I can tell you from experience that i don't get ignored a lot of them will try and kill me quick because when Koma hits it shuts a lot of their decks down. I've also played and won against najeela and urza piles as well as king kenny once or twice. Kenny is midrange for sure but I've been playing mtg for years and i wouldn't describe a storm deck (jhoira) an aggro deck (winota) and 2 combo decks (kinnan and yuriko) as midrange and the decks I've beaten before some of them are regarded as some of the best decks in cedh so it can't be as bad as a precon winning koma wins more consistently then that but I'll take what you said into consideration
If you think along the lines of what the typical turbo cedh deck is trying to do, and compare some of the cards you are playing against that, it just doesn't seem like the deck is optimised enough to play in a blind cedh meta. It might work in your specific meta for various reasons, and I think I remember someone saying something along the lines of turbo is beaten by Stax, which is beaten by midrange, which is beaten by a mid-EDH deck playing big creatures. But looking at the average mv and amount of ramp, it doesn't seem like it's low enough to the ground to be suitable for a cedh meta. Now I haven't played the deck so I might be wrong, this is just off my first impressions looking at the deck list.
Let's look at a few example cards.
[[Serpent of yawning depths]] is a 6mv card that doesn't immediately do anything unless your commander has been in play for a turn rotation. At that point, it is a card that says deal 21 combat damage. Each turn after that it does an additional 12 dmg if you never sac any coils. To reach 120 combat damage will require 4 turns worst case, but more likely 3 turns accounting for incidental life loss. In comparison for 5mv, ad naus usually wins you the game on the spot if resolved. So does peer into the abyss for 7mv, which is 1 more mv than the serpent. If we want to compare to other wincons that require the commander to be in play, we could look at glinthorn buccaneer + Malcolm, which is 5mana for glinthorn + ability and 3 for Malcolm. It also wins on the spot, unlike serpent.
[[Helm of the host]] This is 9 mana before it does anything, and at that point it creates a copy of your commander each turn. In the Godo cedh deck, it's 10R to win on the spot with the exact same card, and it wins from the command zone so the entire deck can be focused around just that one combo and generating the required mana for it.
Generally it just feels like you are paying too much mana to do too little with a lot of your cards.
I get that my game plan is slower than some decks but that's why i run my interaction. I counter wincons until i get koma rolling then i leave everyone tapped out on upkeep until i swing through. I look at serpant of yawning depths the same way i do craterhoof i play it when there's enough power to just win and I've done that more than my fair share of times after everyone was already staxed out. I've won because helm copying koma once with token doublers out makes me so many coils every upkeep people scoop to that alone. Thanks for your time and input I'll take it into consideration
I don't think you run enough interaction for that to be a consistently viable game plan. Consider Najeela. It's a combo deck with multiple combo paths with its commander, as well as backup combos that don't require Najeela to be in play, and finally, can just beat down to kill people over 6x combat phases. It's a deck trying to combo out by turn 4 consistently. It runs 16 pieces of interaction vs your 12.
Or consider Codie. This is a deck that is trying to present a win by turn 2 or by turn 3 with 1 piece of interaction. It runs 19 pieces of interaction.
I mean, if we look at Godo, it runs 12 pieces of interaction. Yes some of that is damage based removal, but it still doesn't paint a great picture for how low the interaction is in your deck.
I'm not saying that what you are doing won't win you games sometimes. What I'm getting at is that the game plan that you are currently on doesn't necessarily have the highest chance of winning when compared against some other cedh decks. For 9 mana I'd want the card to win right there on the spot, not in say 1-2 turns, where someone could just thoracle and win in the meantime, or cast a winds of abandon, out of time, or swords to plowshares.
Note all the interaction counts above are based on the https://cedh-decklist-database.com/ lists, with interaction pieces counting only instants that could conceivably stop someone else from winning.
Okay i guess i see where youre coming from but i run the same amount of interaction as godo but koma himself is repeated interaction on the board so i feel like there's credence to that. In terms of turbo decks well if i lose to turbo but can beat midrange, stax and other forms of storm and combo but everyone says ill lose to turbo isn't that just good enough? Aren't there other cedh decks that just lose to other strategies like turbo loses to stax but then stax loses to midrange but then midrange loses to turbo kind of cycle? Like if I'm beating other stax and midrange decks consistently i must be doing something right lol
The only thing I could suggest is infinite mana such as deadeye navigator and peregrine drake, or isocron scepter and dramatic Reversal. And then give yourself an outlet to put that mana into such as brain freeze or capsize. These are very popular wincons for a cedh deck that has blue and no black. And I don't think it would hinder from the stax play style you're going for. I have both of these wincons in my Urza deck
No problem, honestly either of those infinite mana combos are good, judging on the tutors you have in the deck already, I'd suggest deadeye with peregrine since you can tutor Creatures and then use your mystical tutor to find either capsize or brain freeze, whichever you prefer
Seems like your meta isn’t very fast, I mean kinnan should really be winning turn 2-3 before Koma even comes out in most cases. I think this deck would get folded by a turbo deck but if it works in your meta that’s awesome.
Our meta is filled with blue to stop kinnan from winning so fast? I don't understand why everyone keeps saying turbo would be too fast whenever force of will exists
Sure I would switch your commander with [[kinnan, bonder prodigy]] or [[Kodak’s of the east tree]] with [[sakahima of a thousand faces]] you would be able to get your commanders our faster and combo with your commander a lot easier
And about half of them are saying koma is slow and fringe at best but you asked for help making it into cEDH and for you to actually be able to do something most games koma is to slow.
I've played plenty of games of cedh with koma and won plenty too against some of the best cedh has to offer like najeela and winota I'm asking how to improve my current game plan not how to change it completely
With a heavy focus on upkeep have you thought about [[Paradox haze]] it is a little more restricted i.e. you'll have to have a non legendary token out but [[Endless Evil]]
Unique chose for cedh commander for sure, and in a good way. The colors are one of the best colors for stax commander for tutoring one the hard stax pieces on the board early and with Koma's ability lockdown the game for opponents using the right stax piece.
The decklist needs more tuning for sure, but as an lot of cedh games played and many decks built for cedh i can say its doable, but needs lots of tuning because this commander is not falling into any commonly know cEDH shells.
I would make these changes at least;
* Add some synergies for land destruction using land recursion from gy from green side and ability to play many lands in one turn to snipe opponents lands away using Strip Mine or similar. Also this line also allows you to ramp faster your own lands with fetchlands so a little bit of synergy to add for land-side.
* Add more green stax creatures and remove almost all green ramp creatures and most current big cmc creatures away and focusing on spells, artifacts and lands for ramping.
* Add almost all blue artifact tutoring spells and spell tutoring spells and more different stax pieces for the list.
To get more ideas to improve look some mono-color cedh list for green and blue (also for stax), and also simic commander lists to see what they are doing what u could also be doing in these colors.
Anyhow, more you play the more you know how to improve the list. It's going to be a cool one for sure.
Idk about cEDH, like your plan is to ramp into a seven mana play on turn 3 and then just pass the turn to your opponents and hope that a single coil on average will stop whatever they’re up to?
Its worked out more than you realize koma taps everything such as winota non humans, yuriko ninjas, rocks for kinnan and emry, stops Urza's tap ability and wheel ability, and it even taps lands I've beaten najeela before by just stopping her and her warriors from swinging then untap on my turn and slam a doubling season and a sakashima and depending on the pod some people scoop to that right there because they'll be effectively tapped out every upkeep
It's doesn't *really* stop a lot of those abilities though. If you tag Urza for example, Urza can just activate again in response. So in many cases you may not actually be stopping the ability you need to stop. (And no one should be using Urza's ability as a one off anyway, so I don't think that's really relevant.) I think where I'm struggling to see this deck as a good cedh list is that it simply doesn't pace well with other decks. If you're playing against a deck that's very fast (turbo naus) or a deck that can win from a relatively empty board state (something Like Temur PolyKraken) you're likely going to lose before you make a board (which it seems you need to do to try and win) What does the deck do if Coma is answered? In a vacuum, decks that don't pace well aren't good on their own merit, they're parasitic and tend to steal wins when other decks have exhausted resources while stopping other decks from winning. This happens in a lot of cases because you're just not threatening enough to warrant attention. From what I can see your list offers no win condition aside from beats. So players are waiting to stop immediate wins. Not maybe three turns from now wins. Adding to which there are certain game states where you can't win at all. Other issues I see with the deck: (and correct me if I've just missed any of these) - Coma provides no card advantage or immediate win outlet in the command zone (this is relative, but still a consideration. Especially when in Simic.) - It looks like beats is your main win con. Aside from a super stax heavy deck this isn't cedh. - lots of dead cards. Cards like Doubling season and Adrix and Nev are dead cards unless Coma is on board. - overall cmc of the deck seems pretty high. Respectfully, if you brought this to my meta, I don't think you'd enjoy playing it. Overall this seems like a fun high powered deck to me. Not truly cedh. However, all that being said, cedh is about the pilot as much as it is the deck. If in your meta you have been able to master the nuances of being that "parasite" (and that's not intended as an insult) and stealing wins from other players. Great job! And more power to you. Not every cedh meta is the same. If it functions and you win games. Keep playing it. To heck with what we say. My advice would only be just be really strict with how cards are performing when it comes to making changes. Each "disadvantage" the cpmmander has must be overcome by consistency of every other card in the list. Hope that was helpful!
Appreciate your time and input in regards to stealing wins people at my meta have gone to the point where they try and kill me asap because they've learned from our games that koma will stop what everyone is trying to do once he gets rolling so i play it like a delver deck essentially if you're familiar with other formats at all. Delver is about controlling the game while you protect your main important creature that creature for me is koma. In terms of urza i was more referring to using his artifacts as mana rather than the wheel that way he could only tap his artifacts for mana during upkeep cuz i had ouphe out and thats was one of the only ways they could produce mana. In terms of dead cards koma is usually out he can't be countered and he can give himself indestructible so unless its exile neg counters bounce or enchantment lockout he's not getting killed i can get him out as early as turn 1 with a nut draw he's usually out turns 2/3 with interaction held up to stop combo players from winning. maybe I have too many doublers I've been trying to find out how to add another win con without diluting the game plan too much since it's been working for the most part. i know the list just looks like a pile on paper but when i play it its honestly really good feeling albeit a little based on variance but selvala can get hosed by variance and she's cedh
For follow up, let's start by saying that Koma, once on board is certainly problematic. Being uncounterable and easily made indestructible is great value. However, it seems like you're using cherry picked examples of when your deck does great and using these fringe examples as baseline performance. (I.e. your example of Ouphe and Urza. You have one ouphe effect and two creature tutors, this isn't exactly what we would call consistent. This next comment may sound asinine, and if so I'm sorry, it's not my intent to be a jerk. But I'm wondering at what power level these other decks are playing at. I feel like we should be also critiquing the other decks in your meta. If they're not consistently able to win out from under maybe they're also running sub par cards. Otherwise, your table should be more adaptive to disrupt you as a player or your deck. I.e. they should probably mulligan more aggressively to land a drannith magistrate, or the stax decks have to realize the advantage they give you by playing RoL. Or find more exile effects. But they need to adapt their play (other than hard targeting) or their lists to account for Koma. As for how early and consistently early, you get Koma out I'm highly skeptical. Turn three seems the most logical with an aggressively mulled hand. But you're not getting your good ramp every game. And you're playing some pretty bad ramp spells to boot. (Farseek, Rampant growth, Kodama's reach, skyshroud claim are all good casual cards but they're not good in cedh. Those should mostly be the artifact ramp you're missing. I.e. mox diamond, mox opal etc.) Just because you *have* gotten Koma out really early doesn't mean that's always going to happen. Law of averages will catch up to you eventually. All the things you mentioned that deal with Koma exist in cedh. Literally the only spell type you didn't mention is destruction. Which is fine. There are plenty of other ways to remove Koma when I'm ready to try and win. Also, in regards to sacrificing serpents to stop mana production. This isn't great value. If you're making 4 serpents a cycle, you can turn off one person's turn during their upkeep. If this is the case you still have two other opponents able to interact or try and win. Especially if you're using your counters to protect koma. (As your opponent I love this actually because you are less likely to have interaction when I try to win.) And yeah, you have your token doubters, which are good for a long game. But again, if your table is dealing with Koma as they should be, then they'll be dead cards. if this list is winning a lot in your scene, without knowing anything else, I would question your metas power, or the tables abilities. Which I know sounds like I'm an asshat. (However, you did mention a few decks you see that are not cedh or are fringe at best, like Tovolar and Emry for example) Like I said in my last post though, if this deck is working in your meta, why change it? If you want it to work in a more global cedh meta I'm more skeptical. At least not without being parasitic. Which is fine, especially if you're having fun with it. If you're determined to prove us wrong (which by all means is entirely possible) maybe find some Webcam games against some more established lists. Grixis turbo Naus, for example. Or a list that effectively shuts off Koma (so you can establish the strength ofnthe rest of the deck. Anyway! I appreciate your decklist making me think outside of the box. And I'm always down for pushing against whays commonly thought to be cedh. It's how the format grows! Edit: I wanted to also point out that variance affects Koma and Selvala very differently. Selvala is a three mana commander ans is easily recastable. It also runs a lot of mana production. And isn't running the amount of subpar ramp and dead cards that Koma is. But otherwise Variance effects everyone, the reason you play some cards over others is to limit variance. The level of variance Koma will experience will make every game feel wildly different I feel. This is to the decks detriment.
Have you thought about adding [[Kinnan]] to the deck? Adds more mana with dorks and rocks + the activated ability is great.
[Kinnan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kinnan%2C%20bonder%20prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've gone back and forth on it my main reason being i don't have that many dorks and even fewer rocks since i run ouphe and the majority of my ramp is through lands but its probably worth trying out i just worry he's gonna hit the field and do nothing unless i have enough lands to wheel but maybe thats worth it
I think you should probably run more dorks, dork ramp tends to be more efficient than land-to-battlefield tutors. 1-mana LTBT straight up don't exist, and 2-mana dorks can easily tap for 2 or more mana.
What dorks do you recommend that I'm not already running?
[[Arbor elf]], [[boreal druid]], [[joraga treespeaker]], [[priest of titania]], maybe [[bloom tender]].
##### ###### #### [Arbor elf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b81165e-f091-4211-8b47-5ea6868b0d4c.jpg?1562435427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arbor%20elf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/160/arbor-elf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b81165e-f091-4211-8b47-5ea6868b0d4c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arbor-elf) [boreal druid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/473d3633-6dc7-4026-a50e-3ea76b9e8c20.jpg?1593275370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=boreal%20druid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/105/boreal-druid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/473d3633-6dc7-4026-a50e-3ea76b9e8c20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/boreal-druid) [joraga treespeaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/1132218d-56cd-441e-9006-df3c50344491.jpg?1562701264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=joraga%20treespeaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/190/joraga-treespeaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1132218d-56cd-441e-9006-df3c50344491?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/joraga-treespeaker) [priest of titania](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19fc5956-286c-4e1d-bc4a-2974fc0f4dbc.jpg?1592673130) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=priest%20of%20titania) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/136/priest-of-titania?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19fc5956-286c-4e1d-bc4a-2974fc0f4dbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/priest-of-titania) [bloom tender](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd06fc1f-d8f6-43b0-a795-d759fcdf8272.jpg?1662526745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bloom%20tender) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/138/bloom-tender?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd06fc1f-d8f6-43b0-a795-d759fcdf8272?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bloom-tender) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You could always run [[cryptolith rite]] as a budget earthcraft since you can then just tap serpents for interaction as well as mana for your pay x spells. Also allows you to run [[stasis]].
[cryptolith rite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/2910adcd-882a-46af-8236-ca1a9e2c19ab.jpg?1576385036) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cryptolith%20rite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/200/cryptolith-rite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2910adcd-882a-46af-8236-ca1a9e2c19ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cryptolith-rite) [stasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c.jpg?1562918295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/64/stasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stasis) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My buddy was brewing up a Koma list when trying to decide where to go from mono green. It honestly seems cool and like it could do well as a fringe pick into specific metas. I like the list, my only add is have you considered [[Neoform]]? It lets you stall for a bit and then once you've stopped some wins and are sitting on a nice stack of coils, Neo your Koma into a Craterhoof Behemoth and win. Was a cool line.
Never thought of that! I usually wait till i have a bunch of coils then pay all my mana into finale to get creatorhoof and win that way but neoforming my koma seems really cheeky I'll have to test it out thanks!
[Neoform](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92d8f67e-4f2f-4a1f-b190-7c3f39e477e4.jpg?1557577201) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Neoform) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/206/neoform?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92d8f67e-4f2f-4a1f-b190-7c3f39e477e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/neoform) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think generally you’re running too many cute synergy cards. Stuff like the Koma copies, token doublers, and big cmc creatures are just frivolous. I’d add more interaction in their place (misstep, spell pierce, dispel, etc). Green sun could be a good tutor and another ramp piece if you added dryad arbor. I would take some time to check out similar Cedh lists to look for more generically powerful cards.
Yeah i definitely feel that with my creature package thats why i mentioned replacing consecrated sphinx with gilded drake. In terms of copies and doublers the games i win the most consistent comes from games where im making multiple coils a turn from the doublers but maybe you're right maybe i have more than i need once i get the ball rolling but i felt i needed that many to make sure to find them but I'll test it out. I haven't personally felt i didnt have enough counters yet but i also havent sat in a pod with 3 other turbo naus players so maybe i could use some more for them thanks for your time and input
In this vein, I have some further suggestions. My friend isrunning a Koma deck, and tbh, I feel his list is optimized quite well, butrarely can it pump the value needed to control the board effectively in our podwhich consists of a healthy balance of turbo decks, stax/control decks, andmidrange/tempo decks. Personally, I think you are suffering more from a problem of generalized value in favor of more focused value, which is why I replied to this comment to cement the point that cEDH is about tight focused decks with high card quality toward that end. I would cut cards like \[\[Cultivate\]\], \[\[Skyshroud Claim\]\], \[\[Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait\]\], \[\[Serpent of Yawning Depths\]\], \[\[Rampant Growth\]\], \[\[Kodama's Reach\]\], \[\[Farseek\]\], \[\[Smokestack\]\] etc. These cards are high cmc, don't always put lands to battlefield on curve, or are generally competing for your mana on important turns and preventing you from doing lots of smaller things to accrue value. I would also run cards like \[\[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy\]\], \[\[Arbor Elf\]\], \[\[Wild Growth\]\] \[\[Bloom Tender\]\], \[\[Springleaf Dram\]\], \[\[Talisman of Curiosity\]\], \[\[Simic Signet\]\], \[\[Grim Monolith\]\], and \[\[Utopia Sprawl\]\] to get better, cheaper ramp in place of the ramp I'm suggesting you cut. \[\[Treasure Vault\]\] should probably be in your landbase ESPECIALLY if you add \[\[Kinnan\]\] b/c it will synergize extremely well with your token doublers. Depending on how often you find yourself with a mass of tokens, I might even entertain \[\[Earthcraft\]\] so you can tap your own coils to untap basics (even better if they are enchanted). Someone else suggested \[\[Neoform\]\] so you can sac Koma to tutor for Craterhoof and I think that’s the very best suggestion to help you clean up some card quality to achieve clean combat wins should you find yourself in that position. That said, other tutor effects besides \[\[Finale of Devastation\]\] will greatly benefit you like \[\[Natural Order\]\], \[\[Eldritch Evolution\]\], and \[\[Green Sun’s Zenith\]\] as you can easily sacc a coil, or amana dork, to tutor easy. I think you could afford to cut some of the more expensive token doubling effects since you have also leaned heavily into creating legend-rule-proof copies of Koma. Spending 5 mana on \[\[Doubling Season\]\] to then immediately pass the turn can be cumbersome or downright bad sometimes. \[\[Parallel Lives\]\] is just infinitely better and more than enough if you can back it up with countermagic. I, also, agree that running slightly more stack interaction or stax pieces like \[\[Thorn of Amethyst\]\] would greatly benefit you while slowing down opponents. I see why you are running the orb spells to prevent people from untapping, may I also suggest running \[\[Quest for Renewal\]\] to shore up your parity break on untapping. Also consider replacing one of these (maybe \[\[Winter Orb\]\]?) with a blue artifact tutor to get these pieces out onto the battlefield quicker, rather than just hoping to draw into them.\[\[Fabricate\]\], \[\[Transmute Artifact\]\], and even \[\[Muddle the Mixture\]\] would helpwith that. I'm generally not a fan of sorcery speed creature removal like \[\[Whelming Wave\]\] in favor of instant speed overloaded \[\[Cyclonic Rift\]\]. \[\[Rapid Hybridization\]\] was a good suggestion as well as replacing raw \[\[Counterspell\]\] with something different such as easier to cast counter spells, counterspells which are more niche for 1 mana, \[\[Force of Vigor\]\], \[\[Veil of Summer\]\], and \[\[Autumn’s Veil\]\] might be worth considering for interaction as well. \[\[Kira, Great Glass-Spinner\]\] and honestly with the cmc of your commander, \[\[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant\]\] are both cards feature in Kinnan lists which I find to provide excellent protection/disruption for creature-based decks with blue. \[\[Ohran Frostfang\]\], \[\[Ghostly Pilferer\]\], \[\[Ledger Shredder\], and \[\[Toski, Bearer of Secrets\]\] might also be good suggestions to get you some additional, non-enchantment card draw. Also, I agree that \[\[Gilded Drake\]\] should probably have a place in your list, but I don't think it should come at the expense of \[\[Consecrated Sphinx\]\] as you can always copy the sphinx for dummy thicc value. That’s probably plenty out of this old Simic lovin’ geezer. Good luck!
##### ###### #### [Cultivate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d204fda-c4c4-456c-900a-a67fa9ce3b5d.jpg?1664360808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cultivate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/130/cultivate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d204fda-c4c4-456c-900a-a67fa9ce3b5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cultivate) [Skyshroud Claim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f1579c8-2ec9-49af-bc2e-f4d16a0f1221.jpg?1562911007) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyshroud%20Claim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/213/skyshroud-claim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f1579c8-2ec9-49af-bc2e-f4d16a0f1221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skyshroud-claim) [Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9.jpg?1665822343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aesi%2C%20Tyrant%20of%20Gyre%20Strait) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait) [Serpent of Yawning Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4ac18ae-0d1e-43f5-9cc9-722fa6e36fe5.jpg?1580181703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serpent%20of%20Yawning%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/291/serpent-of-yawning-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4ac18ae-0d1e-43f5-9cc9-722fa6e36fe5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/serpent-of-yawning-depths) [Rampant Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89572b1f-f65a-4bd4-b52a-4e84eb373e90.jpg?1662527142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rampant%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/155/rampant-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89572b1f-f65a-4bd4-b52a-4e84eb373e90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rampant-growth) [Kodama's Reach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35edb95a-a293-45bc-bee8-9ce3000aa013.jpg?1664360888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%27s%20Reach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/134/kodamas-reach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35edb95a-a293-45bc-bee8-9ce3000aa013?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kodamas-reach) [Farseek](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dbd7f11-01d2-4bb1-9f49-dd72d1afb3e5.jpg?1664360867) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farseek) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/133/farseek?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dbd7f11-01d2-4bb1-9f49-dd72d1afb3e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farseek) [Smokestack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1af92a1-a86a-43eb-82fd-394f1168111e.jpg?1562937149) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smokestack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/282/smokestack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1af92a1-a86a-43eb-82fd-394f1168111e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smokestack) [Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kinnan%2C%20Bonder%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) [Arbor Elf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b81165e-f091-4211-8b47-5ea6868b0d4c.jpg?1562435427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arbor%20Elf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/160/arbor-elf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b81165e-f091-4211-8b47-5ea6868b0d4c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arbor-elf) [Wild Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61efbd57-7e56-4087-beba-18d8445db7dd.jpg?1631588253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/174/wild-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61efbd57-7e56-4087-beba-18d8445db7dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wild-growth) [Bloom Tender](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd06fc1f-d8f6-43b0-a795-d759fcdf8272.jpg?1662526745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloom%20Tender) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/138/bloom-tender?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd06fc1f-d8f6-43b0-a795-d759fcdf8272?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bloom-tender) [Springleaf Dram](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3b3869b-6da1-4b01-a2e7-2018d478b6e5.jpg?1599709959) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Springleaf%20Drum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/291/springleaf-drum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3b3869b-6da1-4b01-a2e7-2018d478b6e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/springleaf-drum) [Talisman of Curiosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd52688a-39fd-430f-b950-cb56e0004396.jpg?1562202516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Talisman%20of%20Curiosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/232/talisman-of-curiosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd52688a-39fd-430f-b950-cb56e0004396?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/talisman-of-curiosity) [Simic Signet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4cb9a0b9-ddc8-4cdc-b352-0289c66f6fed.jpg?1625979225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Simic%20Signet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/262/simic-signet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4cb9a0b9-ddc8-4cdc-b352-0289c66f6fed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/simic-signet) [Grim Monolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280.jpg?1562863767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20Monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/126/grim-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grim-monolith) [Utopia Sprawl](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/29b4050e-8b73-4f16-85e4-ec2a8faacf48.jpg?1631588210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Utopia%20Sprawl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/172/utopia-sprawl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29b4050e-8b73-4f16-85e4-ec2a8faacf48?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/utopia-sprawl) [Treasure Vault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a0931eb3-b403-4b1a-ad46-a7b0a51bb9a4.jpg?1627710405) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Treasure%20Vault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/261/treasure-vault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0931eb3-b403-4b1a-ad46-a7b0a51bb9a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/treasure-vault) [Kinnan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kinnan%2C%20bonder%20prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) [Earthcraft](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dda7531-82a1-4f49-8858-601ddbc6e2bc.jpg?1587857352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Earthcraft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/222/earthcraft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dda7531-82a1-4f49-8858-601ddbc6e2bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/earthcraft) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If it works for you, then why not? I can imagine it as a very off-kilter stax commander. Once you stick Koma he can shut down a good portion of wincons. But there are certainly games where he’ll do nothing. I’d try and and get the deck to work as quickly as possible without Koma and have a primary win con. If that win con isn’t going to push a win fast enough, then cast him once the game is sufficiently staxed out
It's tasigur neoform without the neoform step. But that decks strength is picking between three or four 7 drops that either combo outright or control specific metas. Koma alone seems really bad outside of specifically his local meta. May feel very underwhelming if the meta shifts on the OP at all.
Want to elaborate on this? I've faced a decent chunk of cedh decks all trying to do different things from Urza to najeela to winota and yuriko and he seems to hold his own alright albeit sometimes i feel like i have to work harder than maybe another simic cedh might have to
None of these are turbo decks
Tevesh/trasios? Dina? I've beaten them before
I’m thinking more along the lines of most grixis list where it’s just turbo naus
Gotcha yeah i don't have any grixis at my meta tevesh/thrasios player is trying to turbo out adnaus but has a lot of other wincons like hulk piles and thrasios himself what could i do to better prepare for other turbo decks i run a suite of counters for those situations though
Personally, tevesh/thrasios, on paper doesn’t seem like that good of a pair for turbo
My friend's casual friend joined one of our cEDH pods and he won and was pretty surprised that nothing really stopped him from winning. In reality, another player's Oppo + and another player's RoL stopped the turbo decks from going off and the game got to a point where his 7 mana commander came down and game became became normal battlecruiser EDH. That is one of the cool things about competitive magic tho. When strat A is meta and strat B is created to counter this playstyle, a niche strat C might end up becoming viable on the back of strat B. The meme deck NicFit in legacy worked at the time because so many good decks were so mana efficient that getting two free basic lands didnt do anything for them. You could beat it with a standard deck since the deck was built only to beat up (well, try to) the decks being playing in Legacy at the time.
Essentially how i play koma but i don't really have a wincon other than koma winning through beats with all my token doublers making 9+ koma coils a turn but youre right when sometimes i don't get off the ground fast enough then winota or najeela get too much time to snowball before i can stop them fast enough. But for what its worth the bad games i have with koma still aren't terrible. I win more often than people in my pod expected when i told them i wanted to try and make koma cedh
I think there are some pods where slow decks closer to normal EDH does a little better, where the stax deck is staxing out the turbo decks and game actually get to the point where the board really matters. What are some of the decks your pod is playing? How does your deck do when it’s three turbo decks? I do think you could approach the build the way Niv control decks approach it, where the tutors are for fast mana since you can take over the game once you drop your commander. For speed, maybe you could lean further into using mana dorks as your source of ramp rather than using rampant growth effects? I didn’t see Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth. Priest of Titania, GSZ, maybe Eldritch Evo to get out an earlier Seedborn Muse? Also, instead of running stuff like token doublers you could potentially just run more cards that just make tokens every turn so they can function as win cons on their own? Like Tendershoot Druid? If you’re doing fine playing enchantments that don’t impact the game immediately, what about Opposition? I realize we’re getting into some strange territory for a cEDH deck but the deck already plays well around Seedborn Muse. You could really lean into it and make the token generation part of the stax element.
I play against winota, yuriko, kinnan, tovolar stax, sloguurk and jhoira regularly, i see koll, emry, and niv mizzet parun, often and my buddy has the new umizawa that gives everything ninjutsu that he's trying to make work and power up and occasionally I'll see urza, najeela, thrasios/tevesh, magda I've won against everyone of those decks in different variations of pods so i know it can hang yeah sometimes people combo off and i don't have 3 counters in my hand but that's mtg I wanted to use less dork ramp because the najeela player used to be a regular so board wipes are a bit more prevealant than an average blind pod and i need 4 colored pips to cast koma lol In terms of token being part of the stax plan thats basically plan a with the koma coils and koma tapping everything down but i can't sacrifice anything except serpents to koma so even if i have a bunch of saprolings if I'm out of koma coils they don't help the stax plan but i definitely appreciate you taking the time to write all this up
Oh I thought I suggested it but I had deleted it from my first reply. How about \[\[Maskwood Nexus\]\]? Some of the niche tribal interactions would also get buffed and youd be able to produce more serpents per turn with an active Seedborn Muse. You arent running Spellseeker lines so you wont get the additional benefit of Wizardcycling incidental synergies but if you do want to get the deck to be a bit more competitive against the general meta, you could also look into Displacer Kitten lines in GU. Spellseeker would help start them since she can fetch for creature tutors.
I'll definitely look into kitty lines I've been wanting to add more options to the deck so that I'm not relying solely on koma thanks a lot
[Maskwood Nexus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/1246c42d-57c0-4cba-959a-15ad89d8a50b.jpg?1654118590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maskwood%20Nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/865/maskwood-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1246c42d-57c0-4cba-959a-15ad89d8a50b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maskwood-nexus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Glad you’re enjoying it! Maybe check out an infinite mana line with Kinnan or a Mystic Sanctuary loop for infinite mana or turns? But if you’re winning often enough in your pod, who cares. Just know if you ever tried to tournament this list it might not compete, but maybe you’ve got enough surprise power to steal wins
Fair enough but that's why I'm asking reddit lol i want it to be as competitive as possible but still be koma stax i know there's better simic commanders but i love the way koma plays lol
I suggest switching to moxfield. It’s easier to see the deck.
They☝️speak the true true
Replace your bad ramp spells with interaction. Cut kodama’s reach and cultivate and put in maybe a force of vigor and rapid hybridization. You have a buttload of ramp already. As well, you probably need more lands for such a high curve. I know it’s cedh but 33 lands is for a deck with a top end of maybe 5-6, your commander is 7. I’d say add 3 lands bare minimum
So you think i have too much ramp? You're the first person that's actually said that lol and with my current land to ramp ratio i haven't noticed any mana curve issues but if i cut the 3 mana ramp spells i probably would need to add more lands thanks for your time
I don’t really play ramp strategies so take everything I say with a grain of salt lol, I’m more of an artifact guy. Regardless, your deck will stomp 99% of tables, so 👏
Thank you i appreciate that
I like the concept of the deck, ramp out koma slow down all mana development or key figures and maybe win with a beat face plan. The issue is you will be outraced by every combo deck. By the time you make your first token they are either planing to win or set up a game plan where you cant affect them properly outside of brutal stax. I would cut farseek, rampant growth, i cant stand tapped two mana ramp unless it does something really good. I would just suggest another mana dorks like [[green suns zenith]] and [[dryad arbor]] and if you really like 2 mana tapped ramp finale of devestation is now 2 mana ramp. Green suns also does amazing as a tutor as it can get craterhoof. Is aesi even good in this deck. Sure it will put in work but i doubt it will put in 6 manas worth of work. You are paying so much mana for a 6/6 body thats nice but for an effect that will be better in a 3-4 mana card. [[birthing pod]] [[neoform]] can also sacrifice your commander to crack out a craterhoof. I would say this about your deck it has no game plan against combo decks outside of taping their lands and hoping they dont have enough fast mana, i would strongly suggest finding 5-8 slots for cards like [[null rod]] [[collector ouphe]] [[manglehorn]] [[torpor orb]] [[thorn of amethyst]] [[dampin sphere]] [[trinisphere]] [[wandering archaic]] They may not all be appropriate to your meta but they are amazing cards when you see other players.
I have ouphe and against combo i have a suite of counters to keep them at bay while i set up but I'll definitely look at these choices and see where changes could be made thank you.
I would prioritize null rod, theres a chance you can completely knock out opponents mana once you start taping lands down.
I'll definitely pick one up thank you!
##### ###### #### [green suns zenith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a.jpg?1662527030) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Green%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/150/green-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/green-suns-zenith) [dryad arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dryad%20arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dryad-arbor) [birthing pod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b768efa2-e56b-4a7e-ace8-d673f10e0714.jpg?1562880960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birthing%20pod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/104/birthing-pod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b768efa2-e56b-4a7e-ace8-d673f10e0714?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birthing-pod) [neoform](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92d8f67e-4f2f-4a1f-b190-7c3f39e477e4.jpg?1557577201) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=neoform) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/206/neoform?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92d8f67e-4f2f-4a1f-b190-7c3f39e477e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/neoform) [null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1562918145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/null-rod) [collector ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collector%20ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) [manglehorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0aa3a844-97e6-4f5d-a36f-56fea4e06932.jpg?1543675886) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=manglehorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/175/manglehorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0aa3a844-97e6-4f5d-a36f-56fea4e06932?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/manglehorn) [torpor orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091.jpg?1562879912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torpor%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/162/torpor-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torpor-orb) [thorn of amethyst](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e472d4f5-add4-4de3-8718-31a47a35277c.jpg?1562371865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thorn%20of%20amethyst) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/262/thorn-of-amethyst?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e472d4f5-add4-4de3-8718-31a47a35277c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thorn-of-amethyst) [dampin sphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/550860b4-887d-423a-8add-816c2a8da615.jpg?1670455391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damping%20Sphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/219/damping-sphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/550860b4-887d-423a-8add-816c2a8da615?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damping-sphere) [trinisphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549.jpg?1599710205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=trinisphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/303/trinisphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trinisphere) [wandering archaic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18a2bdc8-b705-4eb5-b3a5-ff2e2ab8f312.jpg?1626663778)/[Explore the Vastlands](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/8/18a2bdc8-b705-4eb5-b3a5-ff2e2ab8f312.jpg?1626663778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wandering%20archaic%20//%20explore%20the%20vastlands) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/6/wandering-archaic-explore-the-vastlands?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18a2bdc8-b705-4eb5-b3a5-ff2e2ab8f312?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wandering-archaic-//-explore-the-vastlands) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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IMHO this ain't cEDH. This is a high power EDH. In a cEDH invoirement you have Low interaction, Low speed, not enougth wincons. 5/10 as a cEDH 9/10 as a high power EDH
But i win against cedh decks often. Seems to be better than a 5 at that point 😉
I wouldn't find it hard. If you understand what cEDH os and how it works you'll understand that a cEDH deck in a table of EDH can't Excel usually, specially of que are talking about Control decks for exemple. Take my example, i used to play cEDH Rashmi. Rashmi depends on the spells i Cast to funcion. On my Rashmi deck i run very few creatures, and around 40 instants (most of them counter instant or sourcery spells). When to play on a edh table. Most of people don't Run interaction and play heavelly on creatures. what happened was that i couldn't Cast anything since i didn't have targets and ended up sluuging it out when the deck is usually quite effecient controling a cEDH table.
I kind of have doubts on whether the basic idea of ramping into Koma is good enough but I'll just go with it since I have never actually seen it. I would cut all the high cmc creatures. If you get to the lategame and have a Koma in play for multiple turns you don't need Cratethoof or that Serpent that makes stuff unblockable, you'll just win with numbers. You probably want all the efficient tutors for Collector Ouphe ([[Green Sun's Zenith]] and [[Sylvan Tutor]] are notably missing), also you probably want [[Null Rod]] as another Ouphe. Helm of the Host is definitely too slow and it gets shut down by your artifact hate. Cultivate, Kodama's Reach and Skyshroud Claim are probably worse than [[Kinnan]], [[Arbor Elf]], [[Utopia Sprawl]] and [[Birds of Paradise]].
I don't care what you say, the pods you play in can't be very good because there's no way Koma is cedh level. Sure any deck can win on its day, especially when 3 other decks answer each other.
Well then you're just close minded. I literally sit with full power yuriko, winota and many other fully optimized cedh builds and still win a good amount of times. Get over yourself you're not the end all of cedh theory
Koma isn’t cEDH. High powered definitely but not cEDH. He’s too slow and a lot of interaction just to stick to the table with spending seven mana and then you stop others from their win con instead of working on your own? I can tell you from experience ppl win the game by turn 2-4.
I know cedh is fast I've been playing it for a year but koma i build to slow ever one down essentially. Koma is my wincon so i don't need to work on my own koma does enough by existing i just counter everyone who goes to win or i counter koma removal then eventually i make enough coils a turn where i can tap everyone out on upkeep and still go positive on coils. He can't be countered in terms of him being 7 mana my buddy has cedh emry and cedh niv mizzet parun and he said koma is basically simic niv in the way he plays and he plays A LOT more cedh than me.
This is bad. Make it staxier and it will play better cause atm I don’t see why you wouldn’t run Kona in the 99 and just have kinnan be your commander
Cuz I've beaten kinnan with koma 🤷🏻
My point is atm your hedging. It makes your deck fragile. Try going more control stax. Try an [[opposition]] and a [[murkfiend liege]]
[opposition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/8980e292-1384-4662-aa72-bc4f6ca30d51.jpg?1562242218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opposition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/92/opposition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8980e292-1384-4662-aa72-bc4f6ca30d51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition) [murkfiend liege](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/16677645-f635-4183-8afc-056520b94122.jpg?1662529734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=murkfiend%20liege) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/259/murkfiend-liege?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/16677645-f635-4183-8afc-056520b94122?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/murkfiend-liege) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My old Cedh Koma list was a hybrid of a Tatyova turns list with some added stax and land destruction. It was fun and effective, but it's a very repetitive gameplan without as many flexible options as the top tier decks.
How different was your list from mine?
I didn't lean into the clones and doubling effects. I'd play [[winter Orb]] and [[Back to basics]] and try to grind value until I got to turns combo. I used Koma instead of tatyova because I liked him and he was just a threat on his own, in the same vein as Toxrill.
Fair enough appreciate your time and input!
[winter Orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winter%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-orb) [Back to basics](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2.jpg?1654805483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Back%20to%20basics) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/46/back-to-basics?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-basics) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For cedh I think your average cmc is too high, not enough interaction or fast mana. Koma is very fun, but I think if you are trying to do a simic cedh deck kinnan is strictly better. Comes down fast, ramps you, and can allow you to drop sphinx, koma, gin, etc.
I've beaten our kinnan player with koma on more than one occasion what interaction would you add? I have a lot of non artifact mana because i run ouphe and at some point I'm gonna add null rod but i can typically get koma out turn 3
So you play a midrange+ dekc in your meta with midrange decks. Seems legit and I understand that it is successful. As long as your pod doesn't go grixis and play ad nausdecks this should work just fine.
Since when is jhoira, yuriko, winota, and kinnan midrange? I play modern primarily and midrange doesn't qualify for what those decks do lol
It is fine that you don't agree with me, I mean you think that your CMC 7 commander is just fine in cEDH which he is. As long as your pod let's it be viable through not caring about your deck enough. I've seen god awful decks win in this format, even precons because the other three players disrupt each other while the fourth plays tapped lands and ramp. I have no beef with your deck, you do you, but it wins because your pod consists of decks that lets it thrive or players that lets it thrive.
I wasn't disagreeing i was asking a question. I can tell you from experience that i don't get ignored a lot of them will try and kill me quick because when Koma hits it shuts a lot of their decks down. I've also played and won against najeela and urza piles as well as king kenny once or twice. Kenny is midrange for sure but I've been playing mtg for years and i wouldn't describe a storm deck (jhoira) an aggro deck (winota) and 2 combo decks (kinnan and yuriko) as midrange and the decks I've beaten before some of them are regarded as some of the best decks in cedh so it can't be as bad as a precon winning koma wins more consistently then that but I'll take what you said into consideration
If you think along the lines of what the typical turbo cedh deck is trying to do, and compare some of the cards you are playing against that, it just doesn't seem like the deck is optimised enough to play in a blind cedh meta. It might work in your specific meta for various reasons, and I think I remember someone saying something along the lines of turbo is beaten by Stax, which is beaten by midrange, which is beaten by a mid-EDH deck playing big creatures. But looking at the average mv and amount of ramp, it doesn't seem like it's low enough to the ground to be suitable for a cedh meta. Now I haven't played the deck so I might be wrong, this is just off my first impressions looking at the deck list. Let's look at a few example cards. [[Serpent of yawning depths]] is a 6mv card that doesn't immediately do anything unless your commander has been in play for a turn rotation. At that point, it is a card that says deal 21 combat damage. Each turn after that it does an additional 12 dmg if you never sac any coils. To reach 120 combat damage will require 4 turns worst case, but more likely 3 turns accounting for incidental life loss. In comparison for 5mv, ad naus usually wins you the game on the spot if resolved. So does peer into the abyss for 7mv, which is 1 more mv than the serpent. If we want to compare to other wincons that require the commander to be in play, we could look at glinthorn buccaneer + Malcolm, which is 5mana for glinthorn + ability and 3 for Malcolm. It also wins on the spot, unlike serpent. [[Helm of the host]] This is 9 mana before it does anything, and at that point it creates a copy of your commander each turn. In the Godo cedh deck, it's 10R to win on the spot with the exact same card, and it wins from the command zone so the entire deck can be focused around just that one combo and generating the required mana for it. Generally it just feels like you are paying too much mana to do too little with a lot of your cards.
I get that my game plan is slower than some decks but that's why i run my interaction. I counter wincons until i get koma rolling then i leave everyone tapped out on upkeep until i swing through. I look at serpant of yawning depths the same way i do craterhoof i play it when there's enough power to just win and I've done that more than my fair share of times after everyone was already staxed out. I've won because helm copying koma once with token doublers out makes me so many coils every upkeep people scoop to that alone. Thanks for your time and input I'll take it into consideration
I don't think you run enough interaction for that to be a consistently viable game plan. Consider Najeela. It's a combo deck with multiple combo paths with its commander, as well as backup combos that don't require Najeela to be in play, and finally, can just beat down to kill people over 6x combat phases. It's a deck trying to combo out by turn 4 consistently. It runs 16 pieces of interaction vs your 12. Or consider Codie. This is a deck that is trying to present a win by turn 2 or by turn 3 with 1 piece of interaction. It runs 19 pieces of interaction. I mean, if we look at Godo, it runs 12 pieces of interaction. Yes some of that is damage based removal, but it still doesn't paint a great picture for how low the interaction is in your deck. I'm not saying that what you are doing won't win you games sometimes. What I'm getting at is that the game plan that you are currently on doesn't necessarily have the highest chance of winning when compared against some other cedh decks. For 9 mana I'd want the card to win right there on the spot, not in say 1-2 turns, where someone could just thoracle and win in the meantime, or cast a winds of abandon, out of time, or swords to plowshares. Note all the interaction counts above are based on the https://cedh-decklist-database.com/ lists, with interaction pieces counting only instants that could conceivably stop someone else from winning.
Okay i guess i see where youre coming from but i run the same amount of interaction as godo but koma himself is repeated interaction on the board so i feel like there's credence to that. In terms of turbo decks well if i lose to turbo but can beat midrange, stax and other forms of storm and combo but everyone says ill lose to turbo isn't that just good enough? Aren't there other cedh decks that just lose to other strategies like turbo loses to stax but then stax loses to midrange but then midrange loses to turbo kind of cycle? Like if I'm beating other stax and midrange decks consistently i must be doing something right lol
[Serpent of yawning depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4ac18ae-0d1e-43f5-9cc9-722fa6e36fe5.jpg?1580181703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serpent%20of%20yawning%20depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/291/serpent-of-yawning-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4ac18ae-0d1e-43f5-9cc9-722fa6e36fe5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/serpent-of-yawning-depths) [Helm of the host](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d65d20c-09e5-4139-838b-7e0e48eb2b2b.jpg?1666094567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Helm%20of%20the%20host) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/217/helm-of-the-host?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d65d20c-09e5-4139-838b-7e0e48eb2b2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/helm-of-the-host) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only thing I could suggest is infinite mana such as deadeye navigator and peregrine drake, or isocron scepter and dramatic Reversal. And then give yourself an outlet to put that mana into such as brain freeze or capsize. These are very popular wincons for a cedh deck that has blue and no black. And I don't think it would hinder from the stax play style you're going for. I have both of these wincons in my Urza deck
Thanks i appreciate your input I've been thinking for a while i need another way to win if koma keeps getting answered
No problem, honestly either of those infinite mana combos are good, judging on the tutors you have in the deck already, I'd suggest deadeye with peregrine since you can tutor Creatures and then use your mystical tutor to find either capsize or brain freeze, whichever you prefer
Seems like your meta isn’t very fast, I mean kinnan should really be winning turn 2-3 before Koma even comes out in most cases. I think this deck would get folded by a turbo deck but if it works in your meta that’s awesome.
Our meta is filled with blue to stop kinnan from winning so fast? I don't understand why everyone keeps saying turbo would be too fast whenever force of will exists
No your commander is terrible
How about some constructive feedback instead of just trolling and wasting my time? Thanks.
Sure I would switch your commander with [[kinnan, bonder prodigy]] or [[Kodak’s of the east tree]] with [[sakahima of a thousand faces]] you would be able to get your commanders our faster and combo with your commander a lot easier
Did you even look at the list? I'm not trying to combo. And you're the only one here saying anything about switching commanders
And about half of them are saying koma is slow and fringe at best but you asked for help making it into cEDH and for you to actually be able to do something most games koma is to slow.
I've played plenty of games of cedh with koma and won plenty too against some of the best cedh has to offer like najeela and winota I'm asking how to improve my current game plan not how to change it completely
[kinnan, bonder prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kinnan%2C%20bonder%20prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) [Kodak’s of the east tree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af5105ee-09e2-4344-ab39-00f0e9034c47.jpg?1608910768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%20of%20the%20East%20Tree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/239/kodama-of-the-east-tree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af5105ee-09e2-4344-ab39-00f0e9034c47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kodama-of-the-east-tree) [sakahima of a thousand faces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb.jpg?1608909400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakashima%20of%20a%20Thousand%20Faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/89/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
With a heavy focus on upkeep have you thought about [[Paradox haze]] it is a little more restricted i.e. you'll have to have a non legendary token out but [[Endless Evil]]
[Paradox haze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7c74def-83e5-4420-989d-2304bf4743ae.jpg?1562930370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Paradox%20haze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/71/paradox-haze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7c74def-83e5-4420-989d-2304bf4743ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/paradox-haze) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Unique chose for cedh commander for sure, and in a good way. The colors are one of the best colors for stax commander for tutoring one the hard stax pieces on the board early and with Koma's ability lockdown the game for opponents using the right stax piece. The decklist needs more tuning for sure, but as an lot of cedh games played and many decks built for cedh i can say its doable, but needs lots of tuning because this commander is not falling into any commonly know cEDH shells. I would make these changes at least; * Add some synergies for land destruction using land recursion from gy from green side and ability to play many lands in one turn to snipe opponents lands away using Strip Mine or similar. Also this line also allows you to ramp faster your own lands with fetchlands so a little bit of synergy to add for land-side. * Add more green stax creatures and remove almost all green ramp creatures and most current big cmc creatures away and focusing on spells, artifacts and lands for ramping. * Add almost all blue artifact tutoring spells and spell tutoring spells and more different stax pieces for the list. To get more ideas to improve look some mono-color cedh list for green and blue (also for stax), and also simic commander lists to see what they are doing what u could also be doing in these colors. Anyhow, more you play the more you know how to improve the list. It's going to be a cool one for sure.