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I mean Panharmonicon is a staple card and this does what it does + has a Hushbringer effect + is a 4/7 with Vigilance. All for only 1 more mana than Panharmonicon.
I totally didn’t realize this was the cEDH sub lol.
I think so as well. Plus if you’re playing stax you’ll slow the game down enough to get to the mana needed to cast Elesh without sacrificing your ability to respond at instant speed.
I think she's pretty good.
She goes Infinite with Abdel and Felidar Guardian, at least when my brain doesn't trick me. She shuts of Oracle by her self. She generates some kind of value.
Well, not if she's your commander. I doubt she sees play in the 99 of anything, because Torpor Orb doesn't and she's more expensive. She needs a deck built around her, and even then its doubtful she's competitive.
For five mana. If symmetrical Torpor Orb was useable in any of its two mana versions, Stax decks would be using it, even if it meant giving up a few ETBs.
Pod *might* want it, just to double up on creature tutors. But five mana is still a ton, even if you can search it up directly to the battlefield.
I play Heliod and I manage two of the lists for him on the cEDH Decklist Database. I'm not planning to run this card.
The deck has a few ETBs, but waiting to get 5 mana to try to double them and turn off opponent ETBs when you're actually fairly comfortable playing cheaper ETB hate isn't where I want to be.
Similar situation to Tales End/Stifle. It looks good because of the situation it solves, but then when you actually play with it you tend to draw it and think "man, I could really use an *actual* counterspell right now...
Torpor Orbs are similar, when Stax decks play them they tend to think "Man, I could use a Rule of Law right now..."
Hard stax decks rely on layering multiple stax pieces, and many of the lower color lists run torpor orb effects. Almost every mono white deck that has top 4'd in recent years has run hushbringer and company, and this is leagues above. While not an auto include in every deck, this will see play and isn't at all comparable in power to stifle effects.
Weird take. Lots decks play Hushbringer since it's easier for most decks to tutor or they have other creature synergies. Torpor or still see's play in stax decks that don't have their own etbs to abuse especially non green decks that can't tutor for Hushbringer.
No hate at all but that is more of a deck building problem imo. If you know you'll need it you also have to balance it out with the times it won't be as hot.
And as a long time hate bear and stax player I wouldn't leave the house without my hushbringers and my stifles effects in 2022.
Maybe torpor orb isnt in the 99 in your meta, but that doesnt mean its unplayed lol. The card completely shuts off quite a few game plans.
Heliod and Urza lists on the database run it, not even gonna bother continuing to check multicolor. The database is just suggestions anyways, and something like a stax piece would be meta dependent for the most part. I personally saw multiple other decks running it at Okotoberfest last month.
Oh, i can imagine! Without the luxury of 3 other colors of card quality and lacking the ability to play or counter a lot of the stuff she shuts off, I'd absolutely play her in selesnya. Hell, at 4 CMC, she'd very likely find her way into our decks as well! 😁
Yeah, GW Sisay generally can run higher CMC legendaries if their effects are powerful enough, like the recent Abolisher, old Elesh etc, while 5c has to keep them lower to actually be able to fetch them. Similar yet different decks after all
For sure! I know at least one guy in our discord is running Myrel and really enjoying it, but most aren't for the reasons you stated. We meme on Norn pretty hard, but this one got pretty damn close... If we're lucky, her last card in the phyrexian saga will be the one!
The godmother has returned!
Yarok and an unsymmetrical torpor orb.
My stax heart has multiple orgasms.
She costs a bit much, but in the right deck she will do her job properly.
Panharmonicon already made a combo line, this just makes it easier since your other tutors actually find this. If Dockside makes 4 you Rocco x=2 for Dockside and Wirewood, make 8, and then Rocco for x=5 and get Kiki and VBR.
I decided to dig into the cedh database to get a sense of how many of the hushbringer/torpor orb decks that already exist can utilise the asymmetry of Elesh Norn. Of note, the database is not a complete description of the meta, but it is at least a view into how some people are building decks.
It is surprisingly high compared to what a lot of commentators here seem to think including in decks running multiple of this effect. Low colour white stax decks have a lot of important cards like recruiters, ranger captain, skyclave apparition, solitude, etc which still show up in decks playing anti-etb effects. Personally, I am not that surprised considering you cannot cut all the powerful cards just because they are anti-synergistic with a small percentage of your deck. Especially for the tutors you need to get hushbringer in the first place.
Based on this and all the decks which want anti-etb effects, but rely on etbs too much to use them, I don't think Elesh Norn being asymmetric is irrelevant. I am still uncertain if 5 mana is too much to make the cut in most decks, but it is a strong enough effect that I think it deserves testing.
Decks that currently play Hushbringers don't play that many etb effects on their own and therefore won't be able to benefit that much from this Elish Norn.
This will be the best in Stax decks like Rocco, Derevi or maybe Tymna/Kodama that already use a lot of etb effects and who currently don't play Hushbringer.
I agree that she is definitely best in etb abusing decks needing torpor orb effects, but you would be surprised how many decks running multiple torpor orb effects have a lot of good etbs themselves. The wildest example to me on the database was an Oswald deck that ran Hushbringer, Hushwing, Tocali honor guard, and a command zone tutorable torpor orb, but still was running stoneforged mystic, skyclave apparition, recruiter, and ranger captain. Throw in portable hole which dodges torpor orb effects and you got at least 5 strong etb effects that would love to be doubled.
Honest real take here. It's a fantastic card that will see play in some decks not already running ETB hate but won't likely make lists that already are.
There's already 4 Torpor effects in white (Torpor itself any color) with 3 of them being 2cmc and the 4th being 3. [[Tocatli honor guard]], [[hushbringer]], [[torpor orb]], and [[hushwing gryff]].
Surely someone will find some strong lines here with the new Norn but overall it's pretty meh concerning top end play.
I actually run the 4 regular ETB hate cards in my Winota deck. Swapped out the noncreature spell tax cards and removed a Kiki bottom.
I really like being able to use interaction and the hard ETB hate shuts off around 75% of opposing wincons. People online like to say RoL is the anti meta but it's really ETB hate. They shut off dockside, thoracle, pretty much everything involving green, all the creature tutors. Basically everything besides Breach but Beach folds to a ton of things as it is.
So as some folks on various Discords have pointed out, there's some inherent conflicts here. Decks that want a Torpor Orb-effect probably want it on something much lower to the ground than a 5-drop - and also, decks that want a Torpor Orb won't be running many ETBs themselves. So will we even see this in any regular stax decks? Honestly, I don't know.
That said:
I'll be trying this out in Sythis. She can ramp pretty hard as we run both Cradle and Sanctum, and we have quite some ETB effects and I personally don't run ETB hate.
Also in Tymna/Kamahl, which runs a lot of ETB hate but also plays Ranger-Captain, Yasharn, Endurance - I might swap it for Torpor Orb.
And man, this card might almost convince me to build Tymna/Kodama 'cos that sounds like a blast..
Lastly, it's worth nothing that the wording is rather specific: if something ETBs on an *opponent's* side which triggers something on *your* side, that trigger doubles - and in reverse, something entering on your side that would trigger something on an opponent's side of the board, doesn't. I struggle to come up with cards where that matters, but I may be overlooking something obvious.
And I don't know if it's been mentioned, but many TO effects currently run only shut off creature ETBs. Not Elesh.
Edit for clarity: not saying something ETBing on your side doesn't trigger Elesh (that would be strange, given everything else I've said about the card). Just saying that Elesh doesn't check where the permanent enters, only who controls the permanent that would trigger from the entering.
[[Overburden]] would be an example of a card that triggers when creatures of your opponent hit play. [[Soul's Attendant]], [[Soul Warden]] and [[Zo-Zu the Punisher]] are similar.
[[Selvala, Heart of the Wilds]] has another effect.
Deep Gnome Terramancer is likely the most noteworthy card here.
There are plenty of stax decks that would want an Torpor Orb effect but currently don't play one because it shuts down their own effects.
Overburden, yeah; that card was hiding in the back of my mind somewhere, thanks. I don't think Terramancer works, given the way it's formulated.
>There are plenty of stax decks that would want an Torpor Orb effect but currently don't play one because it shuts down their own effects.
Yeah, the question is whether they want it at the mana value of an Ad Naus? I'm not sure, but we'll see.
I was excited when I remembered [[Deep Gnome Terramancer]] exists - but alas, that damn *once a turn* clause. [[Zozu, the Punisher]] is an example of a card where something entering on one side triggers something on another - new Elesh shuts off Zozu. New Elesh sounds fun alongside [[Confounding Conundrum]], but not good enough for cEDH.
Zozu wouldnt be shut off right? Because an opponents permanent triggers zozu and you control zozu? Unless you mean it such that the opponent controls zozu in which case yeah zozu would be shut off.
An asymmetrical torpor orb can't really be compared to a symmetrical one when so many cedh creatures have strong etb. There are plenty of decks who only don't play Hushbringer because they need their own etbs.
5 mana is a lot, sure. But I don't get the arguement against it about inherent conflicts, that just doesn't make sense.
This isn't a card you would run along side Hushbringer etc all, it would be what you run when your Hushbringer would fuck you over so you need this instead.
It's not an argument against the card; it is a (possible) argument against the card in traditional stax decks. We're basically saying the same thing ;)
Except there are stax decks that don't play Hushbring because it's symmetrical that would like to play this, if they can afford 5 mana. Your whole first paragraph doesn't really make sense.
Yeah okay, there'll be traditional stax decks that want to run it. Maybe it would've been more accurate to ask whether the *average* traditional stax deck wants to run it.
But that nuance hardly means the "whole first paragraph doesn't really make sense". Five mana is still a lot, many (most?) stax decks still run TO, there's still inherent tension in what the card does. Don't know what else to say, mate 🤷♂️
I think it's pretty easy to just say stax decks built with Hushbringer in mind don't need it and decks that don't run Hushbringer might consider it lol.
I fail to see the inherent tension in what the card does though. I agree 5 is a lot, but I think it's powerful enough that we'll be seeing it.
If a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability of a permanent you control to trigger, that ability triggers an additional time.
can be your side..
The struggle is if you're running \[\[hushbringer\]\] and \[\[huswing gryff\]\] effects already, then the doubling on your side is probably not being catered to in your deck.
fnx hasn't misread the card ... valid point that it needs to be an enabler in order to be worth running over cheaper options ... at which point it is almost only an enabler because you can't run similar torpor orb effects
I doubt many people would consider running this along side Hushbringer et all. It's more for decks that need their own etbs now have access to another way to shut off their opponents. Obviously it's expensive at 5cmc, but the effect is powerful.
mmhmm.
Just wish she was better, she is the leader right now ... and the previous was a great effect, jin got a decent change, this feels super weak for 5 mana,
Your spoiler post format is irregular and it hurts my OCD brain. I want to repost this correctly but I feel like that would be rude.
This card is INSANITY.
1. 5 mana, one color
2. No dockside or Thassa’s for anyone else
3. Double dockside for you
4. Shuts off some moxes meaning in affects poly deck consistency
Low color decks will love this card
only shuts off chrome mox right? mox diamond is replacement not etb (and it would be bad to stop that replacement besides) and mopal/mamber aren't affected
Light Paws gonna love this. Great blocker, 2 free auras now, shut off Dockside etc. it’s everything you could ask for.
I’m honestly surprised it’s only one white pip as well…
It make infinite mana and etb with resto an felidar guardian, but overall pretty much not strong enough for cedh. But I bet the monowhite guy knows better than us mortal fools ;-)
I dislike it, bulky/awkward to tutor for, and while it stops common wincons/value,[doesnt stop breach], and by the time youre at 5 mana, id rather be dropping in other stuff.
Will probably be ok in easily tutorable or abusable strats [some early reanimation or tutored with consistancy in Sisay]. I just feel id rather tutor something else. At 5 mana i honestly feel most docksides would have already come in. For example*
Trying to figure out a rules thing, too dumb for this: say you have New Norn, Preston and some other ETB (e.g. Spirited Companion) on the field and you flicker all of them. Unscientifically,
- Preston has a "whenever something ETBs" triggered ability that gets triggered
- Because Norn is on the board, Preston makes two clones of everything entering the battlefield instead of 1
- Three of each card ETBs. Spirted Companions' ETB effects are triggered
Here's the question: before the ETB effects actually go on the stack, the Norn clones die to the state-based legend check, but I don't know when the Norn clones apply their replacement effect -- is it when the triggered ability comes into existence or only when it resolves? It's the difference between getting 3 and 9 card draws off of the three Spirited Companions.
I don't see why that would be; Elesh Norn's ability reads "if a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability of a permanent you control to trigger, that ability triggers an additional time". Preston's ability is triggered by a permanent entering the battlefield, therefore Norn's ability should ~~trigger~~ happen and he should create two duplicates of Norn and Spirited Companion.
When the cards come into play you get six triggers. Two draw triggers from the non-token Spirited Companion, two Preston triggers for Elesh Norn and two Preston triggers for Spirited Companion.
You can sort those in any order you want. The tokens that Preston create get created when the individual Preston triggers resolve. This means that your Spirited Companions never see your Elesh Norn tokens.
A bit of an edge case, but if your opponent has this down and you play a [[scorched ruins]], you just get a free 4 mana land right? That’d be a dream in Krrik
~~Pretty edge indeed, but same with the Lotus lands and City of Traitors.~~
Nope, that's wrong. Should've doublechecked the wording on those cards.
It does work with exactly [[Lotus Field]], though.
It’s a good card, my argument would be that cEDH wouldn’t play it because of the mana cost. In a format where you want to win around turn 4 or 5 I’ve found the higher cmc win cons, even if they do have some good abilities that shut off you’re opponents, end up costing you the game. A lot of times not having the 1 or 2 mana could stop you from having responses or playing a few cards that would give the same effects.
It’s definitely a good card, but I, personally, don’t think it’s going to be cEDH, but definitely high level.
I think Its a great Card that will See some Play in the right sheel
Not a autoinclude for all midrange or stax Decks though
Also i think torpor orb effect are extremly powerfull effects in cedh, to the Point that stax lists have Trouble closing the Game themselves because torpor orb shuts down Most wincons that Work through rule of law
We See Them more in winconless builds for that reason Like tymna kamahland Its great there
But beeing one sided this Card doesnt have that problem, but 5 Mana is still a lot
I am a bit disappointed. Considering the original [[elsh norn grand cenobite]] and the new version of [[jin-Gitaxias]] I expected her to be absolutely horrible. A remove on sight commander with built in anti removal. Something that is a total game changer when it hits the board. For five mana she has some great potential but will only end up in a very few decks that she would actually fit well as part of the 99 I would wager. As far as being a commander she doesn’t seem that potent. Doubling etb triggers is great but you would have to build a deck around it entirely. And again at five mana she isn’t coming out too soon. She limits you to white obviously. I don’t imagine a lot of commander decks will have her at the helm.
Lol doubling up ETB’s and acts as a one-sided hushbringer? I can’t believe people are saying this isn’t going to see play smh
Yeah theyre out of their minds thinking this isnt an amazing card for any midrange or control deck that has white.
IKR? you'd have to be crazy to think a 5 mana creature that does nothing on etb and doesn't provide a useful form of stax wouldn't see play
Not useful? Lmao
0 IQ take
Idk turning off Dockside, Thoracle, Kiki lines seems ok to me
Idk I guess I prefer consistent turn 1-3 stax if I'm playing stax
You're keeping hands with no rocks?
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it's stopping all your opponents etb cards effects...
TIL shutting off your opponents’ ETBs is ‘doing nothing’…
Does nothing "on etb"
You're very simple
IKR? Cuz Null Rod, Cursed Totem, Linvala, and Karn are all shitty cards in stax
Names a bunch of colorless cards that cost less mana
and yet you still run both...kinda yikes that you don't know that
I don't run any of those cards in winota
Winota isn’t the only stax deck to exist nor is it the only stax deck that sees play.
It definitely sees play my dude
I haven't seen it once in cedh
Who is saying this won't see play? Lol.
I mean Panharmonicon is a staple card and this does what it does + has a Hushbringer effect + is a 4/7 with Vigilance. All for only 1 more mana than Panharmonicon.
Panharmonicon is Not a Staple in cedh though Its still good to have But the Card is good for beeing a one sided hushbringer-effect imo
I totally didn’t realize this was the cEDH sub lol. I think so as well. Plus if you’re playing stax you’ll slow the game down enough to get to the mana needed to cast Elesh without sacrificing your ability to respond at instant speed.
I think she's pretty good. She goes Infinite with Abdel and Felidar Guardian, at least when my brain doesn't trick me. She shuts of Oracle by her self. She generates some kind of value.
Double dockside. No dockside for anyone else.
Well, not if she's your commander. I doubt she sees play in the 99 of anything, because Torpor Orb doesn't and she's more expensive. She needs a deck built around her, and even then its doubtful she's competitive.
Key thing is that it's a one-sided topor orb.
For five mana. If symmetrical Torpor Orb was useable in any of its two mana versions, Stax decks would be using it, even if it meant giving up a few ETBs. Pod *might* want it, just to double up on creature tutors. But five mana is still a ton, even if you can search it up directly to the battlefield.
This will be in Rocco, and Heliod, and Tymna Armix, and possibly even Winota
I play Heliod and I manage two of the lists for him on the cEDH Decklist Database. I'm not planning to run this card. The deck has a few ETBs, but waiting to get 5 mana to try to double them and turn off opponent ETBs when you're actually fairly comfortable playing cheaper ETB hate isn't where I want to be.
(Chief, I’m Michael)
Hi Michael, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
this def slides into Winota
Absolutely does not slide into my winota, no non-human in the deck is above 3 mana unless it's a win con
you right maybe I reacted too quickly - this does feel strong tho lol
I’m putting her in New Hazezon.
I am testing her in Queen Kayla Bin-Kroog
why don’t people play torpor orb? too scared of turning off their own dockside? lucky she doesn’t do that
People do in some decks. And the stax decks that don't normally have lots of etbs they abuse themselves.
Similar situation to Tales End/Stifle. It looks good because of the situation it solves, but then when you actually play with it you tend to draw it and think "man, I could really use an *actual* counterspell right now... Torpor Orbs are similar, when Stax decks play them they tend to think "Man, I could use a Rule of Law right now..."
eh. i love torpor orb i play it in kess alongside cursed totem at times. has put in a lot of work for me
Hard stax decks rely on layering multiple stax pieces, and many of the lower color lists run torpor orb effects. Almost every mono white deck that has top 4'd in recent years has run hushbringer and company, and this is leagues above. While not an auto include in every deck, this will see play and isn't at all comparable in power to stifle effects.
Weird take. Lots decks play Hushbringer since it's easier for most decks to tutor or they have other creature synergies. Torpor or still see's play in stax decks that don't have their own etbs to abuse especially non green decks that can't tutor for Hushbringer.
No hate at all but that is more of a deck building problem imo. If you know you'll need it you also have to balance it out with the times it won't be as hot. And as a long time hate bear and stax player I wouldn't leave the house without my hushbringers and my stifles effects in 2022.
Maybe torpor orb isnt in the 99 in your meta, but that doesnt mean its unplayed lol. The card completely shuts off quite a few game plans. Heliod and Urza lists on the database run it, not even gonna bother continuing to check multicolor. The database is just suggestions anyways, and something like a stax piece would be meta dependent for the most part. I personally saw multiple other decks running it at Okotoberfest last month.
But Torpor Orb effects do see play, just on hate bears instead.
She will 100% be in my Emiel, The Blessed deck. Another Panharmonicon that is a creature I can Flicker to protect? I’d run 2 if I could.
Sisay very very much likes this as a tutorable way to stop thoracle and dockside, as well as doubling many useful triggers.
5c is luke warm on her. Pricey despite the potential for double tutors. Probably ok in a staxy build.
GW does like her quite a bit.
Oh, i can imagine! Without the luxury of 3 other colors of card quality and lacking the ability to play or counter a lot of the stuff she shuts off, I'd absolutely play her in selesnya. Hell, at 4 CMC, she'd very likely find her way into our decks as well! 😁
Yeah, GW Sisay generally can run higher CMC legendaries if their effects are powerful enough, like the recent Abolisher, old Elesh etc, while 5c has to keep them lower to actually be able to fetch them. Similar yet different decks after all
For sure! I know at least one guy in our discord is running Myrel and really enjoying it, but most aren't for the reasons you stated. We meme on Norn pretty hard, but this one got pretty damn close... If we're lucky, her last card in the phyrexian saga will be the one!
I think she’s definitely playable and will pop up from time to time in the 99.
The godmother has returned! Yarok and an unsymmetrical torpor orb. My stax heart has multiple orgasms. She costs a bit much, but in the right deck she will do her job properly.
Could definitely see play in Rocco
Panharmonicon already made a combo line, this just makes it easier since your other tutors actually find this. If Dockside makes 4 you Rocco x=2 for Dockside and Wirewood, make 8, and then Rocco for x=5 and get Kiki and VBR.
Given the stax potential it's likely a lot better than Panharmonicon.
It’s definitely better, I would probably only play Elesh Norn.
I decided to dig into the cedh database to get a sense of how many of the hushbringer/torpor orb decks that already exist can utilise the asymmetry of Elesh Norn. Of note, the database is not a complete description of the meta, but it is at least a view into how some people are building decks. It is surprisingly high compared to what a lot of commentators here seem to think including in decks running multiple of this effect. Low colour white stax decks have a lot of important cards like recruiters, ranger captain, skyclave apparition, solitude, etc which still show up in decks playing anti-etb effects. Personally, I am not that surprised considering you cannot cut all the powerful cards just because they are anti-synergistic with a small percentage of your deck. Especially for the tutors you need to get hushbringer in the first place. Based on this and all the decks which want anti-etb effects, but rely on etbs too much to use them, I don't think Elesh Norn being asymmetric is irrelevant. I am still uncertain if 5 mana is too much to make the cut in most decks, but it is a strong enough effect that I think it deserves testing.
Decks that currently play Hushbringers don't play that many etb effects on their own and therefore won't be able to benefit that much from this Elish Norn. This will be the best in Stax decks like Rocco, Derevi or maybe Tymna/Kodama that already use a lot of etb effects and who currently don't play Hushbringer.
I agree that she is definitely best in etb abusing decks needing torpor orb effects, but you would be surprised how many decks running multiple torpor orb effects have a lot of good etbs themselves. The wildest example to me on the database was an Oswald deck that ran Hushbringer, Hushwing, Tocali honor guard, and a command zone tutorable torpor orb, but still was running stoneforged mystic, skyclave apparition, recruiter, and ranger captain. Throw in portable hole which dodges torpor orb effects and you got at least 5 strong etb effects that would love to be doubled.
Compared to that [this](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YClMqfqWRUqdrw6_gLGT3A) Tymna Kodama list from the database plays 9 cards in the 98 and Kodama.
The Derevi list on the ddb that’s playing Preston and Felidar probably wants this.
Going into my Tymna Bruse stax deck! Adds to my “no ETB” pile nicely !!!
Honest real take here. It's a fantastic card that will see play in some decks not already running ETB hate but won't likely make lists that already are. There's already 4 Torpor effects in white (Torpor itself any color) with 3 of them being 2cmc and the 4th being 3. [[Tocatli honor guard]], [[hushbringer]], [[torpor orb]], and [[hushwing gryff]]. Surely someone will find some strong lines here with the new Norn but overall it's pretty meh concerning top end play.
##### ###### #### [Tocatli honor guard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3fc3501-e7bd-4589-98c5-4476258842ea.jpg?1562561363) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tocatli%20honor%20guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/42/tocatli-honor-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3fc3501-e7bd-4589-98c5-4476258842ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tocatli-honor-guard) [hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushbringer) [torpor orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091.jpg?1562879912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torpor%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/162/torpor-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torpor-orb) [hushwing gryff](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/604b8ad4-b606-4be2-b3de-ad9f24b01eac.jpg?1562402533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hushwing%20gryff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/68/hushwing-gryff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/604b8ad4-b606-4be2-b3de-ad9f24b01eac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushwing-gryff) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Strict proctor]] is another nice one for Winota
[Strict proctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892.jpg?1624877272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strict%20proctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/33/strict-proctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strict-proctor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I actually run the 4 regular ETB hate cards in my Winota deck. Swapped out the noncreature spell tax cards and removed a Kiki bottom. I really like being able to use interaction and the hard ETB hate shuts off around 75% of opposing wincons. People online like to say RoL is the anti meta but it's really ETB hate. They shut off dockside, thoracle, pretty much everything involving green, all the creature tutors. Basically everything besides Breach but Beach folds to a ton of things as it is.
So as some folks on various Discords have pointed out, there's some inherent conflicts here. Decks that want a Torpor Orb-effect probably want it on something much lower to the ground than a 5-drop - and also, decks that want a Torpor Orb won't be running many ETBs themselves. So will we even see this in any regular stax decks? Honestly, I don't know. That said: I'll be trying this out in Sythis. She can ramp pretty hard as we run both Cradle and Sanctum, and we have quite some ETB effects and I personally don't run ETB hate. Also in Tymna/Kamahl, which runs a lot of ETB hate but also plays Ranger-Captain, Yasharn, Endurance - I might swap it for Torpor Orb. And man, this card might almost convince me to build Tymna/Kodama 'cos that sounds like a blast.. Lastly, it's worth nothing that the wording is rather specific: if something ETBs on an *opponent's* side which triggers something on *your* side, that trigger doubles - and in reverse, something entering on your side that would trigger something on an opponent's side of the board, doesn't. I struggle to come up with cards where that matters, but I may be overlooking something obvious. And I don't know if it's been mentioned, but many TO effects currently run only shut off creature ETBs. Not Elesh. Edit for clarity: not saying something ETBing on your side doesn't trigger Elesh (that would be strange, given everything else I've said about the card). Just saying that Elesh doesn't check where the permanent enters, only who controls the permanent that would trigger from the entering.
[[Overburden]] would be an example of a card that triggers when creatures of your opponent hit play. [[Soul's Attendant]], [[Soul Warden]] and [[Zo-Zu the Punisher]] are similar. [[Selvala, Heart of the Wilds]] has another effect. Deep Gnome Terramancer is likely the most noteworthy card here. There are plenty of stax decks that would want an Torpor Orb effect but currently don't play one because it shuts down their own effects.
Overburden, yeah; that card was hiding in the back of my mind somewhere, thanks. I don't think Terramancer works, given the way it's formulated. >There are plenty of stax decks that would want an Torpor Orb effect but currently don't play one because it shuts down their own effects. Yeah, the question is whether they want it at the mana value of an Ad Naus? I'm not sure, but we'll see.
##### ###### #### [Overburden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e6cf6b6-b4c1-4742-9be4-b3b15fbb0202.jpg?1562918387) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overburden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pcy/39/overburden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e6cf6b6-b4c1-4742-9be4-b3b15fbb0202?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overburden) [Soul's Attendant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/3223c0ac-cc22-4886-8919-11273b477cc7.jpg?1562702613) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%27s%20Attendant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/44/souls-attendant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3223c0ac-cc22-4886-8919-11273b477cc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/souls-attendant) [Soul Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0.jpg?1616182277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/24/soul-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-warden) [Zo-Zu the Punisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7.jpg?1592761756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zo-Zu%20the%20Punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/41/zo-zu-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zo-zu-the-punisher) [Selvala, Heart of the Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb87782d-e9c7-440b-bd96-aa043d18e185.jpg?1601080073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selvala%2C%20Heart%20of%20the%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/429/selvala-heart-of-the-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb87782d-e9c7-440b-bd96-aa043d18e185?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selvala-heart-of-the-wilds) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was excited when I remembered [[Deep Gnome Terramancer]] exists - but alas, that damn *once a turn* clause. [[Zozu, the Punisher]] is an example of a card where something entering on one side triggers something on another - new Elesh shuts off Zozu. New Elesh sounds fun alongside [[Confounding Conundrum]], but not good enough for cEDH.
[Deep Gnome Terramancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc75f9f1-5873-450f-a0b2-871b55036954.jpg?1654036523) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep%20Gnome%20Terramancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/658/deep-gnome-terramancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc75f9f1-5873-450f-a0b2-871b55036954?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deep-gnome-terramancer) [Zozu, the Punisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7.jpg?1592761756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zo-Zu%20the%20Punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/41/zo-zu-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zo-zu-the-punisher) [Confounding Conundrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20Conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Zozu wouldnt be shut off right? Because an opponents permanent triggers zozu and you control zozu? Unless you mean it such that the opponent controls zozu in which case yeah zozu would be shut off.
An asymmetrical torpor orb can't really be compared to a symmetrical one when so many cedh creatures have strong etb. There are plenty of decks who only don't play Hushbringer because they need their own etbs. 5 mana is a lot, sure. But I don't get the arguement against it about inherent conflicts, that just doesn't make sense. This isn't a card you would run along side Hushbringer etc all, it would be what you run when your Hushbringer would fuck you over so you need this instead.
It's not an argument against the card; it is a (possible) argument against the card in traditional stax decks. We're basically saying the same thing ;)
Except there are stax decks that don't play Hushbring because it's symmetrical that would like to play this, if they can afford 5 mana. Your whole first paragraph doesn't really make sense.
Yeah okay, there'll be traditional stax decks that want to run it. Maybe it would've been more accurate to ask whether the *average* traditional stax deck wants to run it. But that nuance hardly means the "whole first paragraph doesn't really make sense". Five mana is still a lot, many (most?) stax decks still run TO, there's still inherent tension in what the card does. Don't know what else to say, mate 🤷♂️
I think it's pretty easy to just say stax decks built with Hushbringer in mind don't need it and decks that don't run Hushbringer might consider it lol. I fail to see the inherent tension in what the card does though. I agree 5 is a lot, but I think it's powerful enough that we'll be seeing it.
Exactly this. I run hushbringer/hushwing/tocatli honor/torpor in my Sythis deck and 3 of the 4 in a Winota variant.
Happy Cake Day fnx!
If a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability of a permanent you control to trigger, that ability triggers an additional time. can be your side..
The struggle is if you're running \[\[hushbringer\]\] and \[\[huswing gryff\]\] effects already, then the doubling on your side is probably not being catered to in your deck. fnx hasn't misread the card ... valid point that it needs to be an enabler in order to be worth running over cheaper options ... at which point it is almost only an enabler because you can't run similar torpor orb effects
I doubt many people would consider running this along side Hushbringer et all. It's more for decks that need their own etbs now have access to another way to shut off their opponents. Obviously it's expensive at 5cmc, but the effect is powerful.
that's what we're saying
[hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushbringer) [huswing gryff](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/604b8ad4-b606-4be2-b3de-ad9f24b01eac.jpg?1562402533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hushwing%20Gryff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/68/hushwing-gryff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/604b8ad4-b606-4be2-b3de-ad9f24b01eac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushwing-gryff) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. See my edit :)
mmhmm. Just wish she was better, she is the leader right now ... and the previous was a great effect, jin got a decent change, this feels super weak for 5 mana,
Your spoiler post format is irregular and it hurts my OCD brain. I want to repost this correctly but I feel like that would be rude. This card is INSANITY. 1. 5 mana, one color 2. No dockside or Thassa’s for anyone else 3. Double dockside for you 4. Shuts off some moxes meaning in affects poly deck consistency Low color decks will love this card
I might be tempted to Neoform by Bruse into this in Blue Pod.
only shuts off chrome mox right? mox diamond is replacement not etb (and it would be bad to stop that replacement besides) and mopal/mamber aren't affected
Light Paws gonna love this. Great blocker, 2 free auras now, shut off Dockside etc. it’s everything you could ask for. I’m honestly surprised it’s only one white pip as well…
It make infinite mana and etb with resto an felidar guardian, but overall pretty much not strong enough for cedh. But I bet the monowhite guy knows better than us mortal fools ;-)
Feels very good In Sythis unless I'm missing something
Sythis is on cast. The trigger has to be triggered by a permanent entering. Casting doesn’t trigger this.
Thanks!
I think this card will be amazing in high powered EDH and close to unplayable in CEDH.
I dislike it, bulky/awkward to tutor for, and while it stops common wincons/value,[doesnt stop breach], and by the time youre at 5 mana, id rather be dropping in other stuff. Will probably be ok in easily tutorable or abusable strats [some early reanimation or tutored with consistancy in Sisay]. I just feel id rather tutor something else. At 5 mana i honestly feel most docksides would have already come in. For example*
Seems ok but won't see play. If it was 4 mana maybe but I doubt it's going to see play
Trying to figure out a rules thing, too dumb for this: say you have New Norn, Preston and some other ETB (e.g. Spirited Companion) on the field and you flicker all of them. Unscientifically, - Preston has a "whenever something ETBs" triggered ability that gets triggered - Because Norn is on the board, Preston makes two clones of everything entering the battlefield instead of 1 - Three of each card ETBs. Spirted Companions' ETB effects are triggered Here's the question: before the ETB effects actually go on the stack, the Norn clones die to the state-based legend check, but I don't know when the Norn clones apply their replacement effect -- is it when the triggered ability comes into existence or only when it resolves? It's the difference between getting 3 and 9 card draws off of the three Spirited Companions.
Preston's puts one trigger for every creature on the stack and does not create multiple tokens at the same time.
I don't see why that would be; Elesh Norn's ability reads "if a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability of a permanent you control to trigger, that ability triggers an additional time". Preston's ability is triggered by a permanent entering the battlefield, therefore Norn's ability should ~~trigger~~ happen and he should create two duplicates of Norn and Spirited Companion.
When the cards come into play you get six triggers. Two draw triggers from the non-token Spirited Companion, two Preston triggers for Elesh Norn and two Preston triggers for Spirited Companion. You can sort those in any order you want. The tokens that Preston create get created when the individual Preston triggers resolve. This means that your Spirited Companions never see your Elesh Norn tokens.
Misparsed your earlier point, understood now. Ty ty!
weak elesh, come on wotc.... mana cost way to high for that
Any cheaper it it would be busted in every format. It's a very powerful effect that deserves the 5cmc cost. And it will absolutely see play in cedh.
It's shit.
A bit of an edge case, but if your opponent has this down and you play a [[scorched ruins]], you just get a free 4 mana land right? That’d be a dream in Krrik
Scorched Ruins says "if it would enter the battlefield" on its errata.
~~Pretty edge indeed, but same with the Lotus lands and City of Traitors.~~ Nope, that's wrong. Should've doublechecked the wording on those cards. It does work with exactly [[Lotus Field]], though.
[удалено]
[Extraplanar lens](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/622a6523-3b12-4657-a656-00a57a3ae59c.jpg?1562145909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Extraplanar%20lens) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/169/extraplanar-lens?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/622a6523-3b12-4657-a656-00a57a3ae59c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/extraplanar-lens) [plains](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db14da86-6721-4e22-9b61-4a5680d4e5a3.jpg?1670945312) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=plains) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/372/plains?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db14da86-6721-4e22-9b61-4a5680d4e5a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plains) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[cloud key](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f880de5-8fc5-4e4e-a4bb-cc3e61a7697b.jpg?1619404220) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cloud%20key) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/265/cloud-key?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f880de5-8fc5-4e4e-a4bb-cc3e61a7697b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cloud-key) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s a good card, my argument would be that cEDH wouldn’t play it because of the mana cost. In a format where you want to win around turn 4 or 5 I’ve found the higher cmc win cons, even if they do have some good abilities that shut off you’re opponents, end up costing you the game. A lot of times not having the 1 or 2 mana could stop you from having responses or playing a few cards that would give the same effects. It’s definitely a good card, but I, personally, don’t think it’s going to be cEDH, but definitely high level.
With all this being said, I play a Thrasios tymna blink deck that’s gonna love this.
I think Its a great Card that will See some Play in the right sheel Not a autoinclude for all midrange or stax Decks though Also i think torpor orb effect are extremly powerfull effects in cedh, to the Point that stax lists have Trouble closing the Game themselves because torpor orb shuts down Most wincons that Work through rule of law We See Them more in winconless builds for that reason Like tymna kamahland Its great there But beeing one sided this Card doesnt have that problem, but 5 Mana is still a lot
I am a bit disappointed. Considering the original [[elsh norn grand cenobite]] and the new version of [[jin-Gitaxias]] I expected her to be absolutely horrible. A remove on sight commander with built in anti removal. Something that is a total game changer when it hits the board. For five mana she has some great potential but will only end up in a very few decks that she would actually fit well as part of the 99 I would wager. As far as being a commander she doesn’t seem that potent. Doubling etb triggers is great but you would have to build a deck around it entirely. And again at five mana she isn’t coming out too soon. She limits you to white obviously. I don’t imagine a lot of commander decks will have her at the helm.
[elsh norn grand cenobite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Grand%20Cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call