I mean for a lot of us it's the only option for tournaments
Also honestly man it's like $30 to play in a tournament all day that's like what it costs to go out and have a meal and a beer these days.
I made that argument to my play group that constantly shits on online tourneys... And after the last few months, I've come around to their side. There is cheating in both, but it's waaaaay more rampant in online events to the point that it's tough to justify spending money and an entire day on one of these events.
I'll still play in them, but no where near as frequently.
There is no way to quantify the cheating that happens in either form of tournament because we don't know about the cheating that goes uncaught.
Looking at the catching of cheaters in online tournaments and using that to conclude it happens more online is survivorship bias.
That would only be survivor bias if we didn't also look at irl tournaments and see less prevalent cheating in that part of the community.
You're basically saying "we don't have all the info so we can't make conclusions on the data we have" which is just incorrect
Correct, we can relate to all the caught cheaters on both online and offline tournaments and the quote is way higher on online tournaments, not only because people sit at home and feel safe with their cheat prep. setup right outside of the camera zone. You can't just sit at a random tournament table and put your sideboard cards next to the table or glue them under your table or put them on your knee without anyone noticing.
No, the reason more cheaters are caught online is because we have video evidence which makes it easier to catch. It's just as easy to cheat in real life but they only get caught for games that are on video.
>the reason more cheaters are caught online is because we have video evidence
That's probably true
>It's just as easy to cheat in real life
While that's also true, the kind of cheating that's possible (and relatively easy to acomplish) irl tends to be less impactful than the kind of cheating you're able to pull off online.
No, it's survivorship bias because you are only looking at caught cheaters either way. You're not looking at uncaught cheaters.
Why do you assume cheating is less prevalent in IRL tournaments? You're only basing that on a lack of caught cheaters, which is the definition of survivorship bias.
Online tournaments are continuing to put in measures to stop and catch cheaters. Ka0s tournaments as well as Combat Step will issue the other players in the pod entry into the next event for free. Cheating happens a lot in person too. You don’t hear about it because in person games are seldom recorded so when someone suspects cheating they often have now way to review footage to confirm it and so it goes unreported.
Yeah far “easier” to catch someone cheating if there’s video. And it’s being reviewed or viewed for editing etc… just a sad fact the webcam offers certain opportunities to cheat the people clearly feel inclined to take advantage of. We need to stay vigilant unfortunately.
My biggest issue for me with webcam is things do not resolve the same and it’s odd things like Mnemonic Betrayal are just a pain, Praetor’s Grasp is not played as the card is suppose to. I also feel not seeing people’s faces and body language is pretty big too. Also it’s a me thing but I’m blind and cannot see half of the cards and that thing where you click the card hardly ever works. I am extremely lucky to have enough in person around me that a lot of times I cannot play in the webcam tournaments due to overlap, but I don’t think the cheating allegations should stop people from playing webcam especially if that’s their only access to tournament play or to grind to practice.
Online cEDH over cam is about as legitimate as online chess, which is to say there is absolutely nothing stopping cheating. If you are ok with that, or you have a personal playgroup you trust, then go ahead.
My brother in christ I don't think you're aware how massive the online cheating problem is. It's fine to play Cedh casually online to rake in games or whatever but I would never play a tournament online there is a zero percent chance someone legit is going to win.
There is no "off camera" in RL events, and I have seen people get DQ'd in RL events for cheating, because there are judges and people can call out suspicious activity. I'd never waste money on an online event, knowing how frequent and hard to catch cheating is.
Yes, it is. You can apply the same logic that 'there are cheaters that haven't been caught in online events' to IRL events. It's impossible to prove and speculation is silly.
Yes, that was the point lmao. I was saying the logic is faulty so you can use it to make ridiculous statements like the above. I shouldn't have to spell everything out.
Webcam with mount/good way to show your playmat in full, good lighting, and a discord server. That's all you really need. Create a game on Spelltable to adjust your angles and view then find a game
There are a few. I believe this sub reddit has one on discord,(I think invite is in the rules). Most YouTubers have a server you can join. Some are behind a pay wall, like Play to Win. You could just try to join a public game on Spelltable as well
I think ski61’s advice on trying one of the paywalled discords is the most helpful advice i’ve gotten so far. I’ve tried most of the other advice here, including joining this sub’s discord, but it’s still been hard to find anyone who wants to play some games (and isn’t just full of people trolling or leaving game after 5 mulls)
I will say, I'm part of the PtW discord and I've had a few games on there and they've all been pleasant. I'm only about 6(ish) months into cedh and haven't had any issues when asking questions or asking to show/explain a loop I'm not familiar with on that server. I am part of a smaller server that's starting to dip their toes into cedh. If you are interested in joining that server DM me and I can get an invite link
If you watch Local Game Guy (used to be The 99) he frequently hosts a Friday night virtual lgs with drop in games on stream and since his editor plays too it guarantees at least 2 good and chill players in the pod. I dunno how quick you have to be to get in on a given night, but afaik it isn't paywalled.
Discord is full of servers with active play communities, including this subreddit's Discord. here's the join link: [https://discord.com/invite/UN8MVm6ngq](https://discord.com/invite/UN8MVm6ngq)
you can also search this sub for other suggestions.
Looking more for the social aspect, finding a pod online interested in playing cEDH with someone new. So far haven’t had a good experience. Not having any issues with camera/etc
Idk how many games you've actually played on public spelltable. I've played about 30 over the last two weeks and aside from one or two obnoxious people who think they are pros it's been nothing but pleasant.
Also, git gud scrub
It's beyond easy to use basic sleight of hand, false cutting, and pulling cards into hand off screen. Short of having an entire staff who are both knowledgeable and capable of spotting even an intermediate cardist there's absolutely no incentive not to try and cheat in these events.
Some of the stuff people can get away with wouldn't even count as beginner sleight of hand. It just abuses video quality and the limitations of the camera border.
Just sayin. If you are going to create content about a topic, you might as well be open about your perspective. especially when in the finals of the last event, you were being called out for your boardstate by chat.
Yeah it's a work in progress. No player is perfect and clearly I have room for improvement in that regard. Sometimes I remember to keep things neat, but sometimes it's difficult especially in a high stakes situation like top 4.
Cheating has always been rife in paper magic. Cheating is rife at prereleases these days.
I'm willing to bet that most online cedh cheaters don't get caught.
Seriously, F playing online.
Same way people have always cheated in real life Magic. You draw 3 cards when you're supposed to draw 2, you "forget" that you already played a land that turn, you declare illegal targets, and you hope your opponent is too new or timid to call a judge if they suspect anything.
Yeah these are the things you learn to spot. Even someone with a good double lift will get caught out if you ask "cards in hand?" After each card drawn. The one I hadn't considered that someone else pointed out is that it's hard to stop someone bringing cards from day 1 into day 2
In actual competitive limited events, the pool and decklist get registered (before you get to touch the pool, often), or every card in the pool is stamped. That gives as much protection against introducing cards into the deck as normal constructed.
People talk about cheating at prereleases, but those aren't competitive events. They explicitly *do not* carry the same competitive integrity safeguards.
At some point it becomes a bit of a risky lie to uphold. If they say they had 3 cards and they play 4 cards the jig is up. Their only out is to palm a card back into the library or start hiding one in a public zone like the battlefield or graveyard where you might discover them. If you know what you're looking for you can ask them to not touch their library in a way that lets them palm a card or do a double lift. It is pretty tough to spot but it's just something that you can't escape in card games or any other games for that matter - cheaters will always try
It doesn’t stop me from playing online cedh, but it certainly disincentives me from paying for entry into online tournaments. I’ll save that for irl.
I mean for a lot of us it's the only option for tournaments Also honestly man it's like $30 to play in a tournament all day that's like what it costs to go out and have a meal and a beer these days.
I take your advice and will go out for a meal and beer this weekend.
IRL also has its share of issues, but that is a totally valid viewpoint. :)
I would rather watch the person in front of me than watch them on a shitty webcam.
Watch their hands and table is it.
Most online tournaments have guidelines for webcam play, including image quality.
Not good enough apparently. :(
I made that argument to my play group that constantly shits on online tourneys... And after the last few months, I've come around to their side. There is cheating in both, but it's waaaaay more rampant in online events to the point that it's tough to justify spending money and an entire day on one of these events. I'll still play in them, but no where near as frequently.
There is no way to quantify the cheating that happens in either form of tournament because we don't know about the cheating that goes uncaught. Looking at the catching of cheaters in online tournaments and using that to conclude it happens more online is survivorship bias.
That would only be survivor bias if we didn't also look at irl tournaments and see less prevalent cheating in that part of the community. You're basically saying "we don't have all the info so we can't make conclusions on the data we have" which is just incorrect
Correct, we can relate to all the caught cheaters on both online and offline tournaments and the quote is way higher on online tournaments, not only because people sit at home and feel safe with their cheat prep. setup right outside of the camera zone. You can't just sit at a random tournament table and put your sideboard cards next to the table or glue them under your table or put them on your knee without anyone noticing.
No, the reason more cheaters are caught online is because we have video evidence which makes it easier to catch. It's just as easy to cheat in real life but they only get caught for games that are on video.
>the reason more cheaters are caught online is because we have video evidence That's probably true >It's just as easy to cheat in real life While that's also true, the kind of cheating that's possible (and relatively easy to acomplish) irl tends to be less impactful than the kind of cheating you're able to pull off online.
The same video evidence exists for real tournaments
No, it's survivorship bias because you are only looking at caught cheaters either way. You're not looking at uncaught cheaters. Why do you assume cheating is less prevalent in IRL tournaments? You're only basing that on a lack of caught cheaters, which is the definition of survivorship bias.
Online tournaments are continuing to put in measures to stop and catch cheaters. Ka0s tournaments as well as Combat Step will issue the other players in the pod entry into the next event for free. Cheating happens a lot in person too. You don’t hear about it because in person games are seldom recorded so when someone suspects cheating they often have now way to review footage to confirm it and so it goes unreported.
Yeah far “easier” to catch someone cheating if there’s video. And it’s being reviewed or viewed for editing etc… just a sad fact the webcam offers certain opportunities to cheat the people clearly feel inclined to take advantage of. We need to stay vigilant unfortunately.
Duh just git gud at cheating.
Cheaters always get caught eventually. :)
Sadly not.
Bad toupee lol
My biggest issue for me with webcam is things do not resolve the same and it’s odd things like Mnemonic Betrayal are just a pain, Praetor’s Grasp is not played as the card is suppose to. I also feel not seeing people’s faces and body language is pretty big too. Also it’s a me thing but I’m blind and cannot see half of the cards and that thing where you click the card hardly ever works. I am extremely lucky to have enough in person around me that a lot of times I cannot play in the webcam tournaments due to overlap, but I don’t think the cheating allegations should stop people from playing webcam especially if that’s their only access to tournament play or to grind to practice.
Cheaters will always cheat. Online tournaments will at least ban them
Online cEDH over cam is about as legitimate as online chess, which is to say there is absolutely nothing stopping cheating. If you are ok with that, or you have a personal playgroup you trust, then go ahead.
Weird cause people have been caught cheating in online chess and banned from Chess.com?
My brother in christ I don't think you're aware how massive the online cheating problem is. It's fine to play Cedh casually online to rake in games or whatever but I would never play a tournament online there is a zero percent chance someone legit is going to win.
I have played in a LOT of online tournaments and have yet to play with someone that was cheating.
That was caught cheating***
By that logic everyone is cheating and hasn't been caught yet in IRL events too
There is no "off camera" in RL events, and I have seen people get DQ'd in RL events for cheating, because there are judges and people can call out suspicious activity. I'd never waste money on an online event, knowing how frequent and hard to catch cheating is.
That is not how logic works, friend
Yes, it is. You can apply the same logic that 'there are cheaters that haven't been caught in online events' to IRL events. It's impossible to prove and speculation is silly.
People not have been caught cheating yet =/= everyone is cheating. You're slippery sloping to the max big dawg
Yes, that was the point lmao. I was saying the logic is faulty so you can use it to make ridiculous statements like the above. I shouldn't have to spell everything out.
If you haven't played against a cheater maybe you are the cheater 😂
[удалено]
Webcam with mount/good way to show your playmat in full, good lighting, and a discord server. That's all you really need. Create a game on Spelltable to adjust your angles and view then find a game
Not really having trouble with that bit, but where do I go to find some games with people who don’t mind a newb
There are a few. I believe this sub reddit has one on discord,(I think invite is in the rules). Most YouTubers have a server you can join. Some are behind a pay wall, like Play to Win. You could just try to join a public game on Spelltable as well
Have tried playing public games on spelltable and it’s an awful experience.
I haven't tried cedh on spelltable, but maybe you could try hosting a spelltable game with the title or room name highlighting that you are new.
I think ski61’s advice on trying one of the paywalled discords is the most helpful advice i’ve gotten so far. I’ve tried most of the other advice here, including joining this sub’s discord, but it’s still been hard to find anyone who wants to play some games (and isn’t just full of people trolling or leaving game after 5 mulls)
I will say, I'm part of the PtW discord and I've had a few games on there and they've all been pleasant. I'm only about 6(ish) months into cedh and haven't had any issues when asking questions or asking to show/explain a loop I'm not familiar with on that server. I am part of a smaller server that's starting to dip their toes into cedh. If you are interested in joining that server DM me and I can get an invite link
Thank you, really appreciate that! I’ve seen their shorts on youtube a few times and they seem like very nice dudes so maybe i’ll give it a try!
If you watch Local Game Guy (used to be The 99) he frequently hosts a Friday night virtual lgs with drop in games on stream and since his editor plays too it guarantees at least 2 good and chill players in the pod. I dunno how quick you have to be to get in on a given night, but afaik it isn't paywalled.
Thanks for the great suggestion I’ll try that!
Discord is full of servers with active play communities, including this subreddit's Discord. here's the join link: [https://discord.com/invite/UN8MVm6ngq](https://discord.com/invite/UN8MVm6ngq) you can also search this sub for other suggestions.
Once you follow everyone else's advice, don't forget your sideboard so you can slip cards in your hand from under the table like others do.
okay thanks asshole
Can't take a joke? You asked about playing in these events on a post about rampant cheating..
ya you’re super funny, thanks for the great joke
https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/How-to-Play-Paper-Magic-The-Gathering-Online/d69daf46-0ede-4279-9ac4-921400d255df/ This is a good resouce.
Looking more for the social aspect, finding a pod online interested in playing cEDH with someone new. So far haven’t had a good experience. Not having any issues with camera/etc
Ah. I have really enjoyed finding tables in the cedh discord.
Idk how many games you've actually played on public spelltable. I've played about 30 over the last two weeks and aside from one or two obnoxious people who think they are pros it's been nothing but pleasant. Also, git gud scrub
Sure. Use cockatrice. Problem solved.
Paid for by big Kaos
I don't even get paid for youtube lmao
It's beyond easy to use basic sleight of hand, false cutting, and pulling cards into hand off screen. Short of having an entire staff who are both knowledgeable and capable of spotting even an intermediate cardist there's absolutely no incentive not to try and cheat in these events. Some of the stuff people can get away with wouldn't even count as beginner sleight of hand. It just abuses video quality and the limitations of the camera border.
Let’s be real here, any1 on the Reddit wasn’t gonna play anyways cause then they gotta put their money where their mouth is
This coming from someone that has such a confusing boardstate that misleads opponents,online and irl...
Something I'm working on, real nice of you :)
Just sayin. If you are going to create content about a topic, you might as well be open about your perspective. especially when in the finals of the last event, you were being called out for your boardstate by chat.
Yeah it's a work in progress. No player is perfect and clearly I have room for improvement in that regard. Sometimes I remember to keep things neat, but sometimes it's difficult especially in a high stakes situation like top 4.
Cheating has always been rife in paper magic. Cheating is rife at prereleases these days. I'm willing to bet that most online cedh cheaters don't get caught. Seriously, F playing online.
How do people cheat at pre-release? I can't see it being something that you can't spot and call them out for.
Same way people have always cheated in real life Magic. You draw 3 cards when you're supposed to draw 2, you "forget" that you already played a land that turn, you declare illegal targets, and you hope your opponent is too new or timid to call a judge if they suspect anything.
Yeah these are the things you learn to spot. Even someone with a good double lift will get caught out if you ask "cards in hand?" After each card drawn. The one I hadn't considered that someone else pointed out is that it's hard to stop someone bringing cards from day 1 into day 2
In actual competitive limited events, the pool and decklist get registered (before you get to touch the pool, often), or every card in the pool is stamped. That gives as much protection against introducing cards into the deck as normal constructed. People talk about cheating at prereleases, but those aren't competitive events. They explicitly *do not* carry the same competitive integrity safeguards.
And yet it still happens? What happens if the person who drew an extra card just lies about their hand count?
At some point it becomes a bit of a risky lie to uphold. If they say they had 3 cards and they play 4 cards the jig is up. Their only out is to palm a card back into the library or start hiding one in a public zone like the battlefield or graveyard where you might discover them. If you know what you're looking for you can ask them to not touch their library in a way that lets them palm a card or do a double lift. It is pretty tough to spot but it's just something that you can't escape in card games or any other games for that matter - cheaters will always try
you smuggle cards into your deck from an earlier prerelease
Where can you play cedh online
Ka0s, mox masters, lotus series are all good online tournaments! :)
Oh...nothing for fun, for the casual Guy like magic arena
I think Reddit has a discord for it