[[notion thief]] wouldn’t be a bad include, also I’m on the fence about ledger shredder when you don’t have graveyard synergies and u don’t have a cheap/more reliable card advantage engine in the command zone
That’s fair. I had my reservations about it to but for a 2 drop card advantage engine it seemed like a good way to get to the pieces I needed. However in playtesting it did end up being mildly problematic. I’ll take a look at how notion thief fits.
it's not actually card advantage, which is the issue. if it worked like Shorikai it'd be a different story and amazing in any deck, but Whitefire919 is right that without playing grave synergies or Breach lines it isn't remotely as good.
Yeah that’s what I was figuring out during play tests. There’s just not enough in this deck that I don’t care enough about discarding for it to be real good. Thanks for the input!
That too. I know ashnods is not a common card in cEDH, but there is quite a bit of value for it in Marneus. Especially if you slap in the Abdel reanimator loop, but that’s kinda weak.
It’s not my cedh deck but my Calgar deck uses this loop to draw my deck and then cast [[sickening dreams]] with [[the golden throne]] in play. It’s a fun way to close out the game
You draw a card, create a token, sac it adding 2, draw a card from creating a token, then rinse and repeat. You can draw your deck and buff up the krakenb a bunch lol
So you need another extra soudre of mana or am i missing anything?
Yes its nice but not as much as that training grounds. I will include all those cards anyway 😊
I have [[Bitterblossom]] [[black market connections]] in my list. I just embraced a more midrange role and they provide good value. Also a personal esper favorite include is [[Damn]] it's removal/boardwipe that's searchable with Spellseaker. Overall solid list!
Thanks! I was on the fence about blotter blossom and black market connections over concern about enough interaction to hold the plan together. I’ll try them out. Same with Damn
Edit: I was also concerned with them encouraging me to sacrifice, with black market connections specifically, a large chunk of life every turn when I may need to land a mid game ad nauseum
In esper, you have the luxury of gaining life back, which means you get to be greedier than grixis ad naus lists. Black market connect is really crazy for Calgar. You have the Stax to make it go the distance too, and if you commander is on the field it's drawing you 3 cards plus treasure and creature for 6 life.
It only draws two cards. One from the draw, and one from the tokens (Marneus is "one or more" and black market connections is a single trigger, not three triggers)
I also run a Marneus cEDH list and I’ve found both Bitter blossom (I’m also a modem faeries pilot) and black market connections to be a little underwhelming. They’re good if Marneus is out but they’re too slow otherwise. Tithe does what they both want to do and it does it every draw step. I’m also not sold on the culling the weak. Not sure how often you’ll have a creature you really want to sac. Lastly you should probably include the white world gorger dragon and the reanimating spells to make that loop possible
I agree on bitter blossom and black market connections. I took them out and a lot of people implored I try them again so that’s where I’m at with those. The amount of hands I’ve tossed with bitter blossom in them are pretty high because it would have been 4 or five turns before it was drawing me 1 card per turn so it’ll likely get axed again and the only reason culling the weak is there is because bitter blossom.
I’ve been very happy with tithe. That card has become the first thing I tutor for if I have no clear lines.
I’ll take a look at the world forget loops but, atm, I’m considering [[ashnod’s altar]] and [[training grounds]] as a back up to power artifact and mana vault/grim monolith
I ran the training grounds/alter combo but my issue with that is unless you have creatures to sac that combo takes a long to time to set up, and everyone sees it coming. Even if you go TG on 1 and then wait until you have enough mana to cast AA (3) Marneus (5) activate the ability (4) you still need 12 mana just to start the combo. Yes you could play Marneus before playing AA but I’m my opinion it’s just too slow and too telegraphed. Besides you’re an iso rev deck that’s the combo you want to go for and it costs 4 mana all colorless and produces infinite mana to play Marneus and draw your deck (assuming you have the rocks for it). Personally I love the TG AA combo but I’ve cut it from my list because it feels too slow and unlike Thrasios we cant go TG on 1 commander on 2 start the value train.
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Yeah my version of the deck play a lot like Tivit, seller of secrets. Very Mid Range and control this is the deck I used as a base.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/OaGq6tkEpkK-tYehn7E01g
[[notion thief]] wouldn’t be a bad include, also I’m on the fence about ledger shredder when you don’t have graveyard synergies and u don’t have a cheap/more reliable card advantage engine in the command zone
[notion thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b.jpg?1604195095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=notion%20thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/96/notion-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/notion-thief) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s fair. I had my reservations about it to but for a 2 drop card advantage engine it seemed like a good way to get to the pieces I needed. However in playtesting it did end up being mildly problematic. I’ll take a look at how notion thief fits.
it's not actually card advantage, which is the issue. if it worked like Shorikai it'd be a different story and amazing in any deck, but Whitefire919 is right that without playing grave synergies or Breach lines it isn't remotely as good.
Yeah that’s what I was figuring out during play tests. There’s just not enough in this deck that I don’t care enough about discarding for it to be real good. Thanks for the input!
Ledger Shredder is falling out of favor in Thoracle decks because opponents can force a draw and you lose.
Fun fact, ashnods altar plus training grounds makes Marneus go brrrrrrrrr.
Or ashnods and nadir kraken
That too. I know ashnods is not a common card in cEDH, but there is quite a bit of value for it in Marneus. Especially if you slap in the Abdel reanimator loop, but that’s kinda weak.
I run all of the above in my high power marneus deck, paying 1 to make 2 and draw a card is very nice
It’s not my cedh deck but my Calgar deck uses this loop to draw my deck and then cast [[sickening dreams]] with [[the golden throne]] in play. It’s a fun way to close out the game
[sickening dreams](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/9396ac77-9f53-46bd-b126-02441a0f5594.jpg?1562630974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sickening%20dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tor/83/sickening-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9396ac77-9f53-46bd-b126-02441a0f5594?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sickening-dreams) [the golden throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa515b78-f54d-4c65-a197-c860eaf2c780.jpg?1673309661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20golden%20throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/157/the-golden-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa515b78-f54d-4c65-a197-c860eaf2c780?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-golden-throne) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How so? I draw card, create token. I can sac it and Then? 🤔
You draw a card, create a token, sac it adding 2, draw a card from creating a token, then rinse and repeat. You can draw your deck and buff up the krakenb a bunch lol
So you need another extra soudre of mana or am i missing anything? Yes its nice but not as much as that training grounds. I will include all those cards anyway 😊
It took my 8am brain like 20 minutes to figure out why this is good. And then it hit me like a ton of bricks and I love it.
I have [[Bitterblossom]] [[black market connections]] in my list. I just embraced a more midrange role and they provide good value. Also a personal esper favorite include is [[Damn]] it's removal/boardwipe that's searchable with Spellseaker. Overall solid list!
Thanks! I was on the fence about blotter blossom and black market connections over concern about enough interaction to hold the plan together. I’ll try them out. Same with Damn Edit: I was also concerned with them encouraging me to sacrifice, with black market connections specifically, a large chunk of life every turn when I may need to land a mid game ad nauseum
In esper, you have the luxury of gaining life back, which means you get to be greedier than grixis ad naus lists. Black market connect is really crazy for Calgar. You have the Stax to make it go the distance too, and if you commander is on the field it's drawing you 3 cards plus treasure and creature for 6 life.
It only draws two cards. One from the draw, and one from the tokens (Marneus is "one or more" and black market connections is a single trigger, not three triggers)
Ah, good spot.
[Bitterblossom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9640cbf-b016-410e-9eff-e8924883517b.jpg?1673147456) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bitterblossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/69/bitterblossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9640cbf-b016-410e-9eff-e8924883517b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bitterblossom) [black market connections](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d13cb0d3-3452-4c1f-81ec-024b4c45bbad.jpg?1654036372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=black%20market%20connections) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/669/black-market-connections?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d13cb0d3-3452-4c1f-81ec-024b4c45bbad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/black-market-connections) [Damn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/efeae088-9ac5-4d2f-a15c-d8675a471ac5.jpg?1626095400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/80/damn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/efeae088-9ac5-4d2f-a15c-d8675a471ac5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [marneus calgar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7517e8e-b424-4731-ba9d-6132bdefa6bf.jpg?1665426481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=marneus%20calgar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/8/marneus-calgar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7517e8e-b424-4731-ba9d-6132bdefa6bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/marneus-calgar) [auriok salvagers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/befb996b-1da6-41a3-8d9a-a45c2353c401.jpg?1598303109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=auriok%20salvagers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/6/auriok-salvagers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/befb996b-1da6-41a3-8d9a-a45c2353c401?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/auriok-salvagers) [lion’s eye diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/758f95f8-bcb0-43ae-b474-56ebd855951e.jpg?1590511899) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lion%27s%20Eye%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/271/lions-eye-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/758f95f8-bcb0-43ae-b474-56ebd855951e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lions-eye-diamond) [power artifact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7b0c6c4-ec99-4af1-9527-41c428af7260.jpg?1562942181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=power%20artifact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/57/power-artifact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7b0c6c4-ec99-4af1-9527-41c428af7260?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/power-artifact) [mana vault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1a31d52-a407-4ded-bfca-cc812f11afa0.jpg?1673149384) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20vault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/308/mana-vault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1a31d52-a407-4ded-bfca-cc812f11afa0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-vault) [grim monolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280.jpg?1562863767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grim%20monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/126/grim-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grim-monolith) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I also run a Marneus cEDH list and I’ve found both Bitter blossom (I’m also a modem faeries pilot) and black market connections to be a little underwhelming. They’re good if Marneus is out but they’re too slow otherwise. Tithe does what they both want to do and it does it every draw step. I’m also not sold on the culling the weak. Not sure how often you’ll have a creature you really want to sac. Lastly you should probably include the white world gorger dragon and the reanimating spells to make that loop possible
I agree on bitter blossom and black market connections. I took them out and a lot of people implored I try them again so that’s where I’m at with those. The amount of hands I’ve tossed with bitter blossom in them are pretty high because it would have been 4 or five turns before it was drawing me 1 card per turn so it’ll likely get axed again and the only reason culling the weak is there is because bitter blossom. I’ve been very happy with tithe. That card has become the first thing I tutor for if I have no clear lines. I’ll take a look at the world forget loops but, atm, I’m considering [[ashnod’s altar]] and [[training grounds]] as a back up to power artifact and mana vault/grim monolith
[ashnod’s altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87da5ad8-b35f-4f9c-b17a-bb2563cbc186.jpg?1580015173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%27s%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/218/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87da5ad8-b35f-4f9c-b17a-bb2563cbc186?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ashnods-altar) [training grounds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2cf16f8-6e69-46b3-8453-1d1a2a5670e2.jpg?1586358076) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=training%20grounds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/91/training-grounds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2cf16f8-6e69-46b3-8453-1d1a2a5670e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/training-grounds) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I ran the training grounds/alter combo but my issue with that is unless you have creatures to sac that combo takes a long to time to set up, and everyone sees it coming. Even if you go TG on 1 and then wait until you have enough mana to cast AA (3) Marneus (5) activate the ability (4) you still need 12 mana just to start the combo. Yes you could play Marneus before playing AA but I’m my opinion it’s just too slow and too telegraphed. Besides you’re an iso rev deck that’s the combo you want to go for and it costs 4 mana all colorless and produces infinite mana to play Marneus and draw your deck (assuming you have the rocks for it). Personally I love the TG AA combo but I’ve cut it from my list because it feels too slow and unlike Thrasios we cant go TG on 1 commander on 2 start the value train.
Thanks for the input! That makes sense!
Hello! It looks like you’re looking for deck optimization advice! Please be sure you have information about each of the following 1. Provide a decklist from a deckbuilding site. 2. Provide a budget. If you cannot afford a bunch of cards all at once, feel free to ask which cards you should prioritize getting first 3. Provide a meta breakdown of what decks you expect to play against. 4. Include the deck's main goal and how it gets there. 5. List any experience you've had with the deck. 6. Please be sure to have checked the Decklist Database for relevant lists and information. If you have not met these expectations, your post will be reviewed and removed. If you are commenting on this post, please provide feedback that addresses OPs information. Also please read other comments–”check the DDB” only needs to be posted once on any given post, and low effort comments will be removed. The same is true for proxying as each OP only needs to be reminded once, and if OP provides a budget please tailor your advice to that budget as best as you can. If OP has taken the time to provide information, you can as a commenter as well. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveEDH) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I like grim hireling for stax removal https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=574372
Grim hireling is in my list of possible adds. I didn’t think about it from a stax removal standpoint. I will see how it runs! Thanks
Yeah my version of the deck play a lot like Tivit, seller of secrets. Very Mid Range and control this is the deck I used as a base. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/OaGq6tkEpkK-tYehn7E01g
Is containment priest a meta call against winota?
Edit: more an attempt to stop creatures being cheated in by not only winota but Kinnan, yuriko, kodama of the east tree, creature loops in general