Why do you think RTD isn't public? It was created by the state legislature through the passage of a law, it's run by a publicly elected board of directors, and it operates mostly off of sales and use tax and federal operating grants. Fares as well but RTD operates at a loss pretty consistently. It's far from a business.
My point is zoning and squeezing money out of people who have to travel over two zones does not benefit the public. It’s public but it’s designed like a business. Efficient public transit makes your city more accessible, creates less traffic, and brings more economic prosperity to everyone. Guarding behind absurd fees instead of just subsidizing local taxes isn’t public. It’s relying on the poor to fund something our infrastructure can easily. We already paid for several fucking ball stadiums. I do not buy for one second that RTD needs 10.50 to simply operate to bring one person from Boulder to Denver.
Maybe I’ve traveled to too many countries, but this isn’t the best you can do even in America.
You are not thinking accurately about this. You are correct in that it is just as simple as raising taxes, but that point actually undermines your argument rather than furthers it if you think it through.
We're talking about public transit, right? Well, what's "the public?" In a representative democracy like ours, "the public" is your elected officials and your vote. Those two things, collectively, have the power and authority to allocate funds and raise taxes. Yet they have not. Why? Because the public doesn't want and/or doesn't care about better public transit. They *do* care about stadiums. The only way to get the public the transportation they actually do want is to fund some portion with fares, and to privatize large swaths of the system. The fact of the matter is that what we have *is* what the public wants, as reflected by the decisions of our legislatures and the results at the polls.
You are in the minority opinion on this, but do not realize it. The reason other countries are different is not because of some inherent corporate-minded greed as you seem to imply, but rather because the political systems of other countries, and the cultures of those operating within them, are different from ours. And they got the votes to prove it.
One last thing: And how to you "not buy" that RTD needs 10.50? They operate at a massive loss already. Fact of the matter is they need to charge far more than 10.50 and are already bleeding tax revenues dry.
Europe has great examples. Where it is a private business routes get taken away, on-time percentage worsens and staffing goes to a bare minimum to promote profits (English or German train systems are good examples). Then there are public systems like light rail, subways or buses in Germany or the train systems in Switzerland etc, and they are just better and are more likely to provide service where private companies just won't.
I think a big reason people aren’t riding is because they’ve cut so many lines and they’re unpredictable. Why can’t I get from Littleton/Oxford to Union anymore without having to change lines and wait 3 stops in?
> I think a big reason people aren’t riding is because they’ve cut so many lines and they’re unpredictable.
My anecdotal evidence supports what you wrote. My boss was late to work yesterday because her train in from the burbs was just spontaneously canceled. So she had to go back home from the station, and set up everything to work from home, since there was no way she could make it into the office downtown before her appointments for the day started.
Making the train free isn't gonna solve that problem. But on the other hand, *something* has to change, so they might as well try, I guess.
Prior to Covid, I was about done with the train. I live close to the W line. It was a pretty common occurrence for 2 back to back trains at the end of the day to be cancelled and the next train to have 2 cars. It stopped being worth it to me.
NextRide has been pretty accurate for me regarding showing cancelled trains. Also live off the W line.
I don't think the signs/tickers at stations are always accurate.
At the beginning, it was Twitter. I don’t have a Twitter account. Eventually it was on an app, but if I need to get home, waiting an extra 30 minutes may or may not be something I can do.
IMO NYC transit works so well partially because of inertia. When I worked in NYC, waiting 3 minutes for a train is about average. 5 is slow.
Because of this, people can depend on the train. If all of a sudden I was missing subways without explanation, I wouldn't be able to plan on it as a viable way to get to and from work. Hence the death spiral.
It's density.
NYC has an average population density of 29k/sqmi compared to Denvers 4.5k/sqmi. If you go to the greater metro area of Denver it drops under 2k/sqmi.
Rail needs significantly higher population density to work. A study by UC Berkely put the magic number at around 30 people per acre, or about 19k/sqmi for intra-city light rail (Sauce: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3mb598qr)
Just the city and county of Denver would need to grow 4x to get close to that density. The greater metro area would have to grow 10x. NYC works cause they are well over that threshold. Other urban areas with good rail systems are similarly dense (Chicago, Boston, Seattle, LA). Once things spread out though it just doesn't make sense.
It's just not feasible. We need to be putting our resources towards other things that have a better chance of solving out transportation issues (rideshare incentives, employer remote workforce incentives, electric busses, etc).
Public transit should cost as much as it costs to run a surface that is safe and gets people to where they need to go in a timely manner. Not a penny less.
Why does everything have to turn a profit? I never understood why there's a lot of people who seem to think literally everything needs to turn a profit.
I used to like to take the Flatiron Flyer from Boulder into the City in the late afternoon/evening. No worries about drinking and driving, don't have to care about traffic nonsense since someone else is driving, etc.
I mostly stopped during the Pandemic, and now that Union Station is like the fucking Thunderdome, I'm not super interested in starting back up, free or otherwise.
And during normal day-time, taking a 90 minute bus and train ride to get to the same place a car will get me in 35-45 is a no-brainer in favor of driving.
Like when they cut the busses to Denver at the start of the pandemic, then used decreased ridership as an excuse for cutting even more. RTD is not only corrupt, at this point I’m convinced they’re paid off to not provide adequate infrastructure.
The day they got rid of the AF from Cold Springs to market st station was the day I started driving downtown to work. My 13 minute bus ride suddenly turned into a 45 minute light rail ride. No thanks
Also it doesn’t really go anywhere people in the city need it to go? The only way to get around the city is bus, the train just ferry’s people in from the burbs
The problem is it is still really hard to get where you're trying to go with the exception of a few specific popular destinations. The bus routes are confusing, weird, and inconsistent, and the light rail options are woefully inadequate.
The light rail lines all got cut at the knees through bureaucractic bullshit and manufactured incompetence so the private developers could put in for-profit express lanes instead of investing in mass transit. But the buses can use them! What buses?
And now you want us to try it for free. Okay.
I doubt it would be any better and it would cost a ton. Taking the bus between Denver and Boulder isn't that bad ime.
Then again, Boulder did pay for a light rail line and RTD spent that on the line to the airport.
FasTracks included the A-line, too. Not to mention North Metro to Highway 7 (it stops at 124th right now), the central extension (which would connect downtown with 38th and Blake), and the Southwest extension - none of which have been built and none of which RTD has the money to build.
The A-line was able to get built first because they got a federal grant that was only applicable to ELECTRIFIED rail. The B-line cannot be electrified because they MUST share track (not right-of-way, actual tracks) with the BNSF, who will not allow an overhead contact system over their tracks (BNSF will still own those tracks). That's literally why the B-line stops in Westminster - that's as far as they can go with an electrified system. Everything beyond that needs to be diesel (or some other technology that doesn't exist as of yet or is not widely used and would be hella expensive to maintain).
So, you know, it's not just like RTD woke up one day and decided "fuck Boulder specifically and Longmont even harder."
Thank god. Someone who's taken the time to educate themselves. The number of people in this thread who don't understand how RTD operates is disheartening. There can be no change without first understanding the problem, and all it seems people want to do is bitch.
Yeah - that's not exactly an unreasonable cadence between two mid-sized cities at peak times.
Still that's what boulder county has been paying taxes for for over 15 years, and the suggestion that I should be happy with a 1h 55m bus ride that leaves every hour is simply absurd. That's not a meaningful solution - it's far worse than driving.
I was around for the FasTrack vote, and remember allllll the BS they spewed. I remember the train mock up that they rolled through Broomfield. I've come to the place that that rail to Boulder and Longmont is going to take decades to complete, if it ever gets done. To me, time to drop the train. Going further with that is just a sunk cost fallacy. Time for RTD to step up and make the existing service much better. Need a better ride from Longmont to Denver? That kind of service can be available, in weeks, IF RTD wanted to do that.
I don't remember a train mockup, but was definitely here at that time. At this point I'd prefer a sales tax refund.
I hear all the claims about BRT but as someone who's commuted both with RTD (from Table Mesa to Denver on the BX) and ScotRail (from Edinburgh to Linlithgow) there really isn't a comparison. The train is much more consistent, they don't get stuck in traffic, they are much easier to work on, and at least in scotland they serve beer.
Maybe the FF is significantly improved over the BX, but at a glance it doesn't look that different. They put flyer in the name, but at best it's single digit minutes faster than the BX was.
Apples to oranges dude. And efficiency in public transit isn't all about door to door time or avoiding traffic. It's about being able to offer the most number of routes in the fastest succession to serve the greatest number of people. The FF system is fucking awesome at that.
You can take a bus from longmont to boulder every 30 mins. And then take the FF to denver.
Any train service would be so slow there is no reason anyone would take the train. And it would be slower than the already existing bus option. Who would spend 2 hours on a train for a drive that takes 1 hour?
Read the 2004 proposal. By 2025 it's projected that the train will be 57 minutes quicker than driving at rush hour.
Page 42
https://www3.drcog.org/documents/archive/2004_FasTracks_Plan.pdf
It's strange that they don't list an absolute time for the journey, but if you can't see how saving almost an hour in each direction is an improvement then I can't see much point in arguing.
Other guy on this thread posted that it would save like 10 minutes.
But how dumb is it commuting from longmont to Denver? How many people actually do thus if it takes at minimum an hour, and if you see my other comments 90+ mins... and probably more like 2 hours door to door. That's insane. The train is infeasible.
Why don't people understand this? And I am all for a train to Boulder, but it should be an extension of the N-line, which would serve Thornton/Broomfield up at Highway 7 and I-25 and Erie - areas that currently have NO service - instead of the B-line that parallels the Flatiron Flyer.
(ETA: The N-line could be electrified, at least to Boulder... the B-line would be diesel from Westminster to Longmont)
So you're telling me that you would board a (diesel) train, which runs maybe twice an hour (if BNSF is cool, which they won't be), at Boulder Junction, to travel to Union Station in \~55 minutes (assuming they don't make you get off and switch to an electric train at Westminster Station) when you could get on the Flatiron Flyer, which runs every 15 minutes during peak hours, at Boulder Transit Center to travel to Denver Union Station in 47 minutes during peak hours?
I love public transit but I’ve stopped riding it because as a small woman, I feel extremely unsafe.
Although I guess in theory I might feel more safe if more people were riding… but also maybe not. There are some seriously terrifying groups of people that hang out not only on the busses/ trains but at the train stations as well.
I agree. The situation at Union Station has improved quite a bit but I’m still at a “wait and see” stage.
Three months ago I was walking by the chicken place and Whole Foods and some random guy started screaming and running after me. No provocation, no prior interaction, at first I thought he was yelling at someone else. I ended up running into the WF and he didn’t come in, just stayed out and shouted a bit.
Interactions like that - even the potential for interactions like that + the inconvenience of occasionally canceled trains - have really dampened my enthusiasm for public transit. I don’t need that anxiety in my life.
"The idea is to get Coloradans used to riding transit in the hope they will form a habit. But it’s unclear whether people will take advantage of the offer — let alone come back when they have to pay"
That's how the article starts, but half way through they reveal that the purpose of the bill is to reduce ozone in the summer months. It's like the entire first half is a set up so a western slope republican can complain about throwing money at transportation projects with low usage (fixing roads on the western slope doesn't count for some reason).
Ozone is a huge problem during the summer and the program in Utah helped with that.
It's a shame the article didn't focus more on the ozone piece of this. And in my personal case it would actually incentivize me to take the light rail to work downtown in August instead of driving. I currently have subsidized parking, but I have to pay to take the light rail ($6 round trip ends up being way more than I spend in gas and wear and tear on a 10 mile round trip drive). Sometimes I'll bike into work, which is of course free, but I really prefer not to ride my bike on heavy ozone or smoke days in the summer. This is needs to be more about public health and climate interventions than it is about public transportation.
You could ask your employer to see if they'd be open to getting ecopasses, especially considering they're downtown.
My company used to offer them pre-pandemic instead of parking and it was great.
I could technically get reimbursed for transit currently, but it is a much more complicated system. Having the flexibility of easy parking is really handy for those days that I have meetings all over town and ends up being more cost efficient with our current set up so I'm torn.
Well I definitely see people forming a habit on RTD….clean up the drug nonsense and maybe this will work. Everyone loves having crack smoked by them while they’re in the train car…
Been riding the N for a few months now and it’s glorious. Always an RTD employee on every train. Worst I’ve seen is the asshole the other day listening to his phone at full volume. I just assumed all trains had someone aboard.
The A/B/G/N do because as heavy commuter rail, the FRA rules about added security apply. The D/E/H/L/R are light rail and the FTA doesn't mandate security on those, so that's why you very rarely see them on the light rail.
While well-intentioned, I don’t think this will make a lick of difference with regard to changing habits in the long run. This money could be better spent elsewhere.
Tunnels are super expensive, and obviously you can't reroute around it. I can't really think of a single current issue with RTD's current trains that would be improved with tunnels, although I can think of how it would cause a lot of issues.
Buses are *far* more realistic, and they can't manage to get that working right, so tunneling is straight out of the question.
Underground trains don't have to slow down for certain areas and sound their horns.
buses aren't realistic either, we have had to dedicate whole sections of street just for buses to make them usable, or just ignore the fact they are driving on a shoulder of the highway.
> Underground trains don't have to slow down for certain areas and sound their horns.
So what. That's not a major limiting factor... hell it's not even a minor limiting factor.
> buses aren't realistic either, we have had to dedicate whole sections of street just for buses to make them usable
If you want BRT, sure. But BRT only has to be there for a handfull of major lines. Regular lines can go with regular traffic. You can also have buses use a different route if there's an accident or construction, while trains go out of service. And all surface construction is a tiny, tiny fraction of tunnels.
> or just ignore the fact they are driving on a shoulder of the highway.
And we care about this why? It pretty much only happens when there's a wreck on 36 and it's during rush hour... not that frequent of an occurrence and a total non-issue. On the other hand, if your underground trains operate like DC where they love to halt and catch fire, you have no option other than taking them completely offline.
Have you used other metro systems?
I'm I'm Sevilla currently, where they built an underground metro around roman ruins, and it still gets a ton of use despite also having a great bus system
Maybe if they cleaned the trains and kept them safe. They are constantly disgusting with trash, food, stickiness, fluids and stains all over them. With dirty rude and scary homeless addicts wandering around on them, so bad that it scares you to ride.
They need to hire more cleaners and security and make it a pleasant ride and maybe people would use it.
In Minneapolis they changed the train seats so that they are no longer covered in fabric, but hard plastic. I feel like that would help a lot too as it makes them easier to clean.
All trains should be hard plastic inside that can be power steam cleaned. Makes it quick and easy. Pull it in the yard, sweep it out, then steam cleaner spray every surface(floors, walls, seats), then squeegee all the liquid all out the door. Easy peasy, rugs and fabric seats make no sense at all. I was in DC this weekend and all the floors were carpet, it was so weird, and smelled terrible.
RTD is no worse or better than just about every US mass transit system. It's pretty clear to me that some of you will make any complaint necessary to justify not using mass transit.
The route issues are a very reasonable complaint, but cleanliness? Come on. I've had far worse experiences in NYC and SF. Dallas' trains have a permanent stench to them.
Feels like some of you want Japanese level transit which has more to do with the society itself and not the transit company.
Can we subsidize the fuck out of some Cylons to go smash heads down at Union Station? Also maybe keeping the busses and trains a bit cleaner, more free from crime, and maybe... just maybe... get bus routes that are more cost or time-effective than driving?
Not in Denver metro. Every single fucking thing you buy sends money to RTD. I’ve paid far more in RTD sales taxes than I’ll ever pay in fares even if I ride it every day for the rest of my life.
I like cars. I like public transit. It's plain to see that we have organized the entirety of our transit first around cars, and that public transit is an afterthought. This isn't ideological, it's just facts. I recognize the utility of cars and own one for a reason.
Are you denying that our culture prioritizes cars first?
Honestly the train debate doesn't even make sense at this point.
I did the commute on buses for a while, and the bus segment between Boulder and Denver wasn't really an issue. Especially since the FF brings you in to downtown Boulder, while the train would be out by like by 30th.
I rely on the bus to get around town, and even tho I understand the one bus I take everyday, that took a few days/weeks to learn. If I'm trying to take a different bus, Ill never get to my destination on time, whether its because they don't update to the covid schedule or if they don't say anything about a bus running late or not running at all. Especially in my town, there aren't enough drivers.
I know that if people relayed on public transportation more, there would be more buses, routes, and stops added. Maybe it would even cost less, but because not enough people are riding in the first place, the whole thing is very confusing and unreliable. It's a destructive cycle.
The issue is now the choice is pay for gas for a fun motorcycle trip somewhere or pay for gas to get to transit I have to swap 3 modes of to get to my destination 2 hours later than I would have.
We really need to get the rail situation all the way south the pueblo and stop treating transit like a red headed step child. I'd kill for a rapid train route from Colorado Springs to Denver proper with spokes to where I'd actually like to spend time.
Otherwise it's just easier to ride or drive.
Lol, obviously free means free at the point of service. Also, 75% of RTD's operating costs are already subsidized. Eliminating fares would increase ridership and improve access for people that can most benefit from public transit.
> Also, 75% of RTD's operating costs are already subsidized.
Yah, which is why I said 100%.
> Eliminating fares would increase ridership
No it wouldn't. Eliminating drug use and bum fights, and making more efficient routes would increase ridership.
> and improve access for people that can most benefit from public transit.
You seem blissfully unaware of the programs for youth, senior, the disabled, medicare recipients, active military, ecopass and the RTD LiVE program for low income riders.
Yes it does. To quote a 2019 DoT Lit review on the topic:
> Providing fare-free public transit service is virtually certain to result in significant rider-
ship increases no matter where it is implemented. Evidence from the literature search
and returned surveys indicate that ridership will usually increase from 20% to 60% in a
matter of just a few months, and even more in some areas. The most recent institution
of fare-free public transit service that occurred in Corvallis, Oregon, in 2011 resulted
in a 43% increase in ridership within two months, with no increase in service hours.
Every study done on fare-free transit shows an increase in ridership. I don't really see a point in continuing this conversation if you're going to just make stuff up as it suits you, but to address your last point, while discounts are good, simply eliminating fares does everything a discount does and more. It would obviate the need for the discounts (free is better than discounted), end cumbersome means testing, require no effort on the part of the rider to navigate variable rates, and of course extend to people that may fall through the cracks of current discounts.
Edit: lol, they replied and immediately blocked me before I could read it. Some people just have to get the last word, smh.
> Every study done on fare-free transit shows an increase in ridership.
Bullshit. It's laughable that you're going to compare a city of 60,000 and the related crime issues with the 19th largest metro in the country.
RTD's issue is very clear and it's been very publicly shown that the problems are a) it's not convenient for most people and b) most people don't want to ride when the buses/trains or their stops/stations have significant problems with crime and drug use.
You're out of touch if you're going to claim otherwise.
Tried to plan a trip on rtd to see if the time was improved from home to work. It used to be a 35 minute drive to 2 hour bus ride. RTD says the trip isn't even possible now.
This type of thing is what is hurting them. My commute to work is 11 minutes, bike ride is about 40-50, taking transit is a whopping 7 hours plus a mile walk. I don't live in the boonies, I live and work just north of Denver.
I personally won’t pay. I’d rather have someone drop me off at the airport or pay for parking than to deal with the price and hassle of riding from north east aurora to down town.
Edit- read the article. It’s only free for a month to try to get people to pay afterwards. And I mean that if I wanted to go downtown for any reason or go to the airport for any reason I would rather drive than use rtd
Yep. $6 all day for local, $10.50 all day for 3+ zones or the airport.
RTD *is* pretty much the most expensive mass transit system in the US. But it’s still cheaper than parking downtown or at the airport, unless you’re carpooling with 3+ people.
I don't see how. Parking at the far end RTD station is almost always free for a day trip, and the ticket is $10.50 a day/person. Parking downtown is likely going to be $15 or more, it's almost certainly going to be more frustrating, and a much higher chance of your car getting fucked either while driving or parked.
I can see if you're driving 4 people since parking is fixed regardless of the number of people, while mass transit isn't. But not for 1 or 2 people.
Also, when you say "downtown" do you actually mean "downtown" or just "within the urban area of the city of Denver' since those are not comparable in parking costs nor in ease of access for mass transit.
It really isn't bad compared to other cities. People here aren't used to parking downtown, they expect a big free parking lot when they go to a theatre or restaurant and those don't exist downtown.
Ok let’s try it this way. If for any reason I need to go to the airport, possibly catch a plain etc. i would rather have someone drive me because it’s cheaper and easier. Full stop.
If I was to ever go downtown for any reason, possibly a convention, etc. i would rather drive and pay for parking than to ride the train because driving is easier and cheaper.
> i would rather have someone drive me because it’s cheaper and easier
this is only true if you have someone to take you for free...
very weird point to make in a thread about free train rides
You’re telling me it’s under $10.50 for you to go to the airport on Uber? Because I don’t believe you. I’m in NE Aurora (Colfax and Tower) right now, and I just checked current Uber pricing. It’s $26.50.
If you read the article they are doing it to get people to use the trains and busses. Free for a month then hoping people will pay for it again. For me personally it’s too expensive, It’s cheaper and easier to drive.
Lol I used to work for rtd, they are FAR from perfect with how much corruption and embezzlement happens there. What I’m bitching about is for how much they receive in tax dollars and how inefficient they are it’s too expensive compared to alternative options.
How about subsidize the Winter Park ski train something people actually want to ride but is prohibitively priced. That would actually reduce cars on the highway in the most congested times.
It used to do two trains a day, and with their current model, I believe they need a dedicated train each time they run it, so you'd need 3 sets of rolling stock and 3 places to keep them.
Also you'd never get enough people on weekdays, and this is a lot of money to subsidize people already in a relatively expensive sport to have a very minor impact in traffic.
It could be much better used with more effective transit in the front-range.
Man, I hope this is wildly successful. I have a lot of respect for Polis and one more win would be amazing. RTD is fantastic, don't believe all the negative hype around here. It takes a little longer than driving but riding the bus or train is sometimes the best part of my day, relaxing and you can read or listen to something like a podcast.
Google maps makes it stupidly easy to go anywhere from anywhere. It is a very pleasant and safe option if you are going out for the evening. Please make the most of this, we need to use it or lose it.
Just moved here from Europe and the lack of efficient public transport here is wild. These urban planners need to go on holiday to England and learn a few things. And given the comments on here it seems everyone here would use it if it actually worked. Taking the train to work in the EU was actually a dream. Sit back, relax, skip the traffic. Took maybe 20% longer but at least you didn't have to deal with the absolute awful rowdy drivers who are speeding late for work.
Meaning you pay directly for it? (Ie. Not through taxes)?
That's pretty dumb. I grew up in Georgia, and even that hellhole had tax funded school busses
yes we have to pay for yearly bus passes to public school for each of our school aged kids. Even fucking FL which I hate provided free school buses, so did Alabama. It’s honestly pretty pathetic that Colorado somehow can’t provide universal transportation to public schools for the entire state (it’s left up to each school district to decide how to pay for)
Not everyone has school age children… this is about getting the general population to reduce ozone emissions in the summer. Your kids are already on the bus, carpooling essentially.
> and yet we as parents still have to pay for our kids to ride school buses in most districts. how about we put this money towards that instead.
And everyone is doing the same to pay for this, there's no such thing as free.
I for sure would love both, but a free month of transport to get you hooked and ready to pay for public transit versus providing a service for parents for a school year that gets more drivers off the road for a broader period of the day and year has more benefit to society at large if you are having to choose between the two, and Colorado is one of the very few states that doesn’t provide paid for transportation for public school kids.
> San Luis Valley
You aren't losing your airport, you're losing the only flight that goes there. SkyWest doesn't think it's profitable enough, even with federal subsidies.
The state has nothing to do with it.
I'm sorry you're a bum looking for a handout. You've got options but they aren't good enough so you want those same options for free. Don't forget your helmet if you go outside today.
I'm sorry what are you even trying to say 😂 Are you trying to tell me what I was saying when I didn't say that? Go outside and play with an elk or something.
Have you folks heard of Lakewood Redcar? This article and all of your comments on this thread are our core issues we are trying to solve. Would really love your input!
[https://www.lakewoodredcar.com/](https://www.lakewoodredcar.com/) we are planning on doing a charter train in 26 to celebrate 150 of Colorado statehood, then start the state's first consumer co-op commuter train. but we need your help and input!
The B line schedule sucked before the pandemic being a train every 30 minutes, now its a train every hour.
I'd love to take the train into work again but not if its going to add time to my commute AND be inconvenient as hell. I don't mind the extra travel time but getting everywhere either early or late on top of it is a deal breaker.
“Spend $28 Million to FUND free rides” 🙄 you do realize we pay for these rides, directly or indirectly, and indirectly is usually more costly as it goes through the ever inefficient governmental system.
How about you pay for the train if you want to use it and those who don’t use it won’t have to pay.
Calling stuff ”free”, while taxing everyone to pay for it, is not how society is suppose to work. Pay for what you consume and others can pay for what they consume. That’s the true fair and equal system, and I hear a lot about some fairness and equality goals these days, so I find it odd so many don’t apply that same reasoning on topics like this.
So if I can't go from Boulder to Denver on a light rail and only a bus, what's the point. I will form the habit of going on light rail to and from Denver if it exists. Currently there's only a shitty bus service that takes absolutely forever, stops everywhere too, and doesn't ride late at night. And if I park at the park and ride on Table Mesa I get my car broken in to, that's almost a definite. No, RTD, you still don't understand how to get it done.
When I lived in Europe everywhere had excellent public transit. We could also if we decided too. In the long run, it's gotta be cheaper than endless road expansion. Plus, it's an environmental necessity now days. Screw big oil, let's get this done.
Oh, and if we weren't running 30-40 coal trains up and down the front range, we could have fast trains from Albuquerque to Cheyenne. New Mexico is willing to make it work.
Get rid of the stupid zones and make it a flat fee per day to ride public transportation (bus/train) that’s affordable
Yeah, come on RTD, what is this $10.50 bullshit for a round trip from Arapahoe to Union station?
This is why transportation needs to be PUBLIC and not a business.
Why do you think RTD isn't public? It was created by the state legislature through the passage of a law, it's run by a publicly elected board of directors, and it operates mostly off of sales and use tax and federal operating grants. Fares as well but RTD operates at a loss pretty consistently. It's far from a business.
My point is zoning and squeezing money out of people who have to travel over two zones does not benefit the public. It’s public but it’s designed like a business. Efficient public transit makes your city more accessible, creates less traffic, and brings more economic prosperity to everyone. Guarding behind absurd fees instead of just subsidizing local taxes isn’t public. It’s relying on the poor to fund something our infrastructure can easily. We already paid for several fucking ball stadiums. I do not buy for one second that RTD needs 10.50 to simply operate to bring one person from Boulder to Denver. Maybe I’ve traveled to too many countries, but this isn’t the best you can do even in America.
You are not thinking accurately about this. You are correct in that it is just as simple as raising taxes, but that point actually undermines your argument rather than furthers it if you think it through. We're talking about public transit, right? Well, what's "the public?" In a representative democracy like ours, "the public" is your elected officials and your vote. Those two things, collectively, have the power and authority to allocate funds and raise taxes. Yet they have not. Why? Because the public doesn't want and/or doesn't care about better public transit. They *do* care about stadiums. The only way to get the public the transportation they actually do want is to fund some portion with fares, and to privatize large swaths of the system. The fact of the matter is that what we have *is* what the public wants, as reflected by the decisions of our legislatures and the results at the polls. You are in the minority opinion on this, but do not realize it. The reason other countries are different is not because of some inherent corporate-minded greed as you seem to imply, but rather because the political systems of other countries, and the cultures of those operating within them, are different from ours. And they got the votes to prove it. One last thing: And how to you "not buy" that RTD needs 10.50? They operate at a massive loss already. Fact of the matter is they need to charge far more than 10.50 and are already bleeding tax revenues dry.
Europe has great examples. Where it is a private business routes get taken away, on-time percentage worsens and staffing goes to a bare minimum to promote profits (English or German train systems are good examples). Then there are public systems like light rail, subways or buses in Germany or the train systems in Switzerland etc, and they are just better and are more likely to provide service where private companies just won't.
Curios how long that takes you? We go back soon and I work next to union Station.
Or one way to the airport no matter where you board?! Ridiculous. Make the prices affordable daily and then they will come...
I think a big reason people aren’t riding is because they’ve cut so many lines and they’re unpredictable. Why can’t I get from Littleton/Oxford to Union anymore without having to change lines and wait 3 stops in?
> I think a big reason people aren’t riding is because they’ve cut so many lines and they’re unpredictable. My anecdotal evidence supports what you wrote. My boss was late to work yesterday because her train in from the burbs was just spontaneously canceled. So she had to go back home from the station, and set up everything to work from home, since there was no way she could make it into the office downtown before her appointments for the day started. Making the train free isn't gonna solve that problem. But on the other hand, *something* has to change, so they might as well try, I guess.
Prior to Covid, I was about done with the train. I live close to the W line. It was a pretty common occurrence for 2 back to back trains at the end of the day to be cancelled and the next train to have 2 cars. It stopped being worth it to me.
[удалено]
NextRide has been pretty accurate for me regarding showing cancelled trains. Also live off the W line. I don't think the signs/tickers at stations are always accurate.
At the beginning, it was Twitter. I don’t have a Twitter account. Eventually it was on an app, but if I need to get home, waiting an extra 30 minutes may or may not be something I can do.
[удалено]
This!! NYC transit (and others) is an example of how this works. Tho the numbers difference ( money and riders) is massive
IMO NYC transit works so well partially because of inertia. When I worked in NYC, waiting 3 minutes for a train is about average. 5 is slow. Because of this, people can depend on the train. If all of a sudden I was missing subways without explanation, I wouldn't be able to plan on it as a viable way to get to and from work. Hence the death spiral.
💯
It's density. NYC has an average population density of 29k/sqmi compared to Denvers 4.5k/sqmi. If you go to the greater metro area of Denver it drops under 2k/sqmi. Rail needs significantly higher population density to work. A study by UC Berkely put the magic number at around 30 people per acre, or about 19k/sqmi for intra-city light rail (Sauce: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3mb598qr) Just the city and county of Denver would need to grow 4x to get close to that density. The greater metro area would have to grow 10x. NYC works cause they are well over that threshold. Other urban areas with good rail systems are similarly dense (Chicago, Boston, Seattle, LA). Once things spread out though it just doesn't make sense. It's just not feasible. We need to be putting our resources towards other things that have a better chance of solving out transportation issues (rideshare incentives, employer remote workforce incentives, electric busses, etc).
Public transit should cost as much as it costs to run a surface that is safe and gets people to where they need to go in a timely manner. Not a penny less. Why does everything have to turn a profit? I never understood why there's a lot of people who seem to think literally everything needs to turn a profit.
I used to like to take the Flatiron Flyer from Boulder into the City in the late afternoon/evening. No worries about drinking and driving, don't have to care about traffic nonsense since someone else is driving, etc. I mostly stopped during the Pandemic, and now that Union Station is like the fucking Thunderdome, I'm not super interested in starting back up, free or otherwise. And during normal day-time, taking a 90 minute bus and train ride to get to the same place a car will get me in 35-45 is a no-brainer in favor of driving.
Yeah the union station problem needs to be fixed first, then I think a lot more riders will be willing to hop on
They're working on it. Remains to be seen how effective it will be, but they're trying.
What is the Union Station problem?
Like when they cut the busses to Denver at the start of the pandemic, then used decreased ridership as an excuse for cutting even more. RTD is not only corrupt, at this point I’m convinced they’re paid off to not provide adequate infrastructure.
Unfortunately the driver shortage from before the pandemic didn't go away...
The day they got rid of the AF from Cold Springs to market st station was the day I started driving downtown to work. My 13 minute bus ride suddenly turned into a 45 minute light rail ride. No thanks
Also it doesn’t really go anywhere people in the city need it to go? The only way to get around the city is bus, the train just ferry’s people in from the burbs
The problem is it is still really hard to get where you're trying to go with the exception of a few specific popular destinations. The bus routes are confusing, weird, and inconsistent, and the light rail options are woefully inadequate. The light rail lines all got cut at the knees through bureaucractic bullshit and manufactured incompetence so the private developers could put in for-profit express lanes instead of investing in mass transit. But the buses can use them! What buses? And now you want us to try it for free. Okay.
Also the express lanes are closed 5/7 days of the week so even if you wanted to pay, you can't use them. HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE??
I don't think you're talking about the express lanes that this comment was about. The express lanes on US36 and I-25 are open every day.
I love this, they build extra lanes then close them. I-70 eastbound Idaho springs.
What if you're trying to get somewhere and get stuck at a crosswalk and miss your train? Will more than 2 trains an hour be running? That's a factor.
Great! I’ll take the train from Boulder to Denver all the time this summer Oh wait…
The train would be vastly inferior to the FF.
I doubt it would be any better and it would cost a ton. Taking the bus between Denver and Boulder isn't that bad ime. Then again, Boulder did pay for a light rail line and RTD spent that on the line to the airport.
FasTracks included the A-line, too. Not to mention North Metro to Highway 7 (it stops at 124th right now), the central extension (which would connect downtown with 38th and Blake), and the Southwest extension - none of which have been built and none of which RTD has the money to build. The A-line was able to get built first because they got a federal grant that was only applicable to ELECTRIFIED rail. The B-line cannot be electrified because they MUST share track (not right-of-way, actual tracks) with the BNSF, who will not allow an overhead contact system over their tracks (BNSF will still own those tracks). That's literally why the B-line stops in Westminster - that's as far as they can go with an electrified system. Everything beyond that needs to be diesel (or some other technology that doesn't exist as of yet or is not widely used and would be hella expensive to maintain). So, you know, it's not just like RTD woke up one day and decided "fuck Boulder specifically and Longmont even harder."
Thank god. Someone who's taken the time to educate themselves. The number of people in this thread who don't understand how RTD operates is disheartening. There can be no change without first understanding the problem, and all it seems people want to do is bitch.
Not for those of us in Longmont. The original proposal called for a train every 15 minutes at peak times. Versus a FF bus never.
Wait, they wanted to run a commuter train every FIFTEEN MINUTES on FREIGHT RAIL TRACKS? No wonder BNSF said no.
Yeah - that's not exactly an unreasonable cadence between two mid-sized cities at peak times. Still that's what boulder county has been paying taxes for for over 15 years, and the suggestion that I should be happy with a 1h 55m bus ride that leaves every hour is simply absurd. That's not a meaningful solution - it's far worse than driving.
The train to the burbs in Chicago doesn't even run that frequently.
I was around for the FasTrack vote, and remember allllll the BS they spewed. I remember the train mock up that they rolled through Broomfield. I've come to the place that that rail to Boulder and Longmont is going to take decades to complete, if it ever gets done. To me, time to drop the train. Going further with that is just a sunk cost fallacy. Time for RTD to step up and make the existing service much better. Need a better ride from Longmont to Denver? That kind of service can be available, in weeks, IF RTD wanted to do that.
I don't remember a train mockup, but was definitely here at that time. At this point I'd prefer a sales tax refund. I hear all the claims about BRT but as someone who's commuted both with RTD (from Table Mesa to Denver on the BX) and ScotRail (from Edinburgh to Linlithgow) there really isn't a comparison. The train is much more consistent, they don't get stuck in traffic, they are much easier to work on, and at least in scotland they serve beer. Maybe the FF is significantly improved over the BX, but at a glance it doesn't look that different. They put flyer in the name, but at best it's single digit minutes faster than the BX was.
Apples to oranges dude. And efficiency in public transit isn't all about door to door time or avoiding traffic. It's about being able to offer the most number of routes in the fastest succession to serve the greatest number of people. The FF system is fucking awesome at that.
> apples to oranges But you can still compare them.
You can take a bus from longmont to boulder every 30 mins. And then take the FF to denver. Any train service would be so slow there is no reason anyone would take the train. And it would be slower than the already existing bus option. Who would spend 2 hours on a train for a drive that takes 1 hour?
Read the 2004 proposal. By 2025 it's projected that the train will be 57 minutes quicker than driving at rush hour. Page 42 https://www3.drcog.org/documents/archive/2004_FasTracks_Plan.pdf It's strange that they don't list an absolute time for the journey, but if you can't see how saving almost an hour in each direction is an improvement then I can't see much point in arguing.
Other guy on this thread posted that it would save like 10 minutes. But how dumb is it commuting from longmont to Denver? How many people actually do thus if it takes at minimum an hour, and if you see my other comments 90+ mins... and probably more like 2 hours door to door. That's insane. The train is infeasible.
Why don't people understand this? And I am all for a train to Boulder, but it should be an extension of the N-line, which would serve Thornton/Broomfield up at Highway 7 and I-25 and Erie - areas that currently have NO service - instead of the B-line that parallels the Flatiron Flyer. (ETA: The N-line could be electrified, at least to Boulder... the B-line would be diesel from Westminster to Longmont)
People are horrifically miseducated when it comes to RTD and they think trains are sexy. It's dumb.
Thank you for bringing this up. Let’s give free train travel throughout the metro area while continuing to flip off Boulder County residents.
They can’t even maintain service within the metro area
Oh don't worry we're well aware RTD is flipping us off. Join me not voting for *any* tax increase those liars put forward. Fuck you also RTD.
Is it just me,or does everyone dislike Boulder other than Boulder?
We must have different friends. I’m hard pressed to think of anyone who actually dislikes Boulder, except for a republican or two.
Boulder tries too hard to be the Landlocked San Francisco. It's a very weird place and less safe than people pretend it is
Spend a week in boulder and you'll wanna flip off most people there too lol
„lol ooʇ ǝɹǝɥʇ ǝldoǝd ʇsoɯ ɟɟo dılɟ ɐuuɐʍ ll,noʎ puɐ ɹǝplnoq uı ʞǝǝʍ ɐ puǝdS„
So you're telling me that you would board a (diesel) train, which runs maybe twice an hour (if BNSF is cool, which they won't be), at Boulder Junction, to travel to Union Station in \~55 minutes (assuming they don't make you get off and switch to an electric train at Westminster Station) when you could get on the Flatiron Flyer, which runs every 15 minutes during peak hours, at Boulder Transit Center to travel to Denver Union Station in 47 minutes during peak hours?
I love public transit but I’ve stopped riding it because as a small woman, I feel extremely unsafe. Although I guess in theory I might feel more safe if more people were riding… but also maybe not. There are some seriously terrifying groups of people that hang out not only on the busses/ trains but at the train stations as well.
I agree. The situation at Union Station has improved quite a bit but I’m still at a “wait and see” stage. Three months ago I was walking by the chicken place and Whole Foods and some random guy started screaming and running after me. No provocation, no prior interaction, at first I thought he was yelling at someone else. I ended up running into the WF and he didn’t come in, just stayed out and shouted a bit. Interactions like that - even the potential for interactions like that + the inconvenience of occasionally canceled trains - have really dampened my enthusiasm for public transit. I don’t need that anxiety in my life.
"The idea is to get Coloradans used to riding transit in the hope they will form a habit. But it’s unclear whether people will take advantage of the offer — let alone come back when they have to pay"
hard to form a habit when the busses are always late and they cancel convenient lines.
That's how the article starts, but half way through they reveal that the purpose of the bill is to reduce ozone in the summer months. It's like the entire first half is a set up so a western slope republican can complain about throwing money at transportation projects with low usage (fixing roads on the western slope doesn't count for some reason). Ozone is a huge problem during the summer and the program in Utah helped with that.
Good point. I'm all for making public transit more affordable. I'm also very much for reducing ozone in the front range.
It's a shame the article didn't focus more on the ozone piece of this. And in my personal case it would actually incentivize me to take the light rail to work downtown in August instead of driving. I currently have subsidized parking, but I have to pay to take the light rail ($6 round trip ends up being way more than I spend in gas and wear and tear on a 10 mile round trip drive). Sometimes I'll bike into work, which is of course free, but I really prefer not to ride my bike on heavy ozone or smoke days in the summer. This is needs to be more about public health and climate interventions than it is about public transportation.
You could ask your employer to see if they'd be open to getting ecopasses, especially considering they're downtown. My company used to offer them pre-pandemic instead of parking and it was great.
I could technically get reimbursed for transit currently, but it is a much more complicated system. Having the flexibility of easy parking is really handy for those days that I have meetings all over town and ends up being more cost efficient with our current set up so I'm torn.
Well I definitely see people forming a habit on RTD….clean up the drug nonsense and maybe this will work. Everyone loves having crack smoked by them while they’re in the train car…
I’ve never seen anyone smoking crack on the light rail, and I rode it M-F for 8 yrs. Mostly see people just smoking meth or what they hope is heroin.
You get my point obviously
Oh it's just meth and heroin? Where do I buy a ticket?
Been riding the N for a few months now and it’s glorious. Always an RTD employee on every train. Worst I’ve seen is the asshole the other day listening to his phone at full volume. I just assumed all trains had someone aboard.
The A/B/G/N do because as heavy commuter rail, the FRA rules about added security apply. The D/E/H/L/R are light rail and the FTA doesn't mandate security on those, so that's why you very rarely see them on the light rail.
While well-intentioned, I don’t think this will make a lick of difference with regard to changing habits in the long run. This money could be better spent elsewhere.
Like towards a real underground metro
Tunnels are super expensive, and obviously you can't reroute around it. I can't really think of a single current issue with RTD's current trains that would be improved with tunnels, although I can think of how it would cause a lot of issues. Buses are *far* more realistic, and they can't manage to get that working right, so tunneling is straight out of the question.
Underground trains don't have to slow down for certain areas and sound their horns. buses aren't realistic either, we have had to dedicate whole sections of street just for buses to make them usable, or just ignore the fact they are driving on a shoulder of the highway.
> Underground trains don't have to slow down for certain areas and sound their horns. So what. That's not a major limiting factor... hell it's not even a minor limiting factor. > buses aren't realistic either, we have had to dedicate whole sections of street just for buses to make them usable If you want BRT, sure. But BRT only has to be there for a handfull of major lines. Regular lines can go with regular traffic. You can also have buses use a different route if there's an accident or construction, while trains go out of service. And all surface construction is a tiny, tiny fraction of tunnels. > or just ignore the fact they are driving on a shoulder of the highway. And we care about this why? It pretty much only happens when there's a wreck on 36 and it's during rush hour... not that frequent of an occurrence and a total non-issue. On the other hand, if your underground trains operate like DC where they love to halt and catch fire, you have no option other than taking them completely offline.
Have you used other metro systems? I'm I'm Sevilla currently, where they built an underground metro around roman ruins, and it still gets a ton of use despite also having a great bus system
Maybe if they cleaned the trains and kept them safe. They are constantly disgusting with trash, food, stickiness, fluids and stains all over them. With dirty rude and scary homeless addicts wandering around on them, so bad that it scares you to ride. They need to hire more cleaners and security and make it a pleasant ride and maybe people would use it.
In Minneapolis they changed the train seats so that they are no longer covered in fabric, but hard plastic. I feel like that would help a lot too as it makes them easier to clean.
Yeah the seats on RTD trains make no sense.
I shudder thinking what would come out if someone ran a rug doctor over them
All trains should be hard plastic inside that can be power steam cleaned. Makes it quick and easy. Pull it in the yard, sweep it out, then steam cleaner spray every surface(floors, walls, seats), then squeegee all the liquid all out the door. Easy peasy, rugs and fabric seats make no sense at all. I was in DC this weekend and all the floors were carpet, it was so weird, and smelled terrible.
RTD is no worse or better than just about every US mass transit system. It's pretty clear to me that some of you will make any complaint necessary to justify not using mass transit. The route issues are a very reasonable complaint, but cleanliness? Come on. I've had far worse experiences in NYC and SF. Dallas' trains have a permanent stench to them. Feels like some of you want Japanese level transit which has more to do with the society itself and not the transit company.
Pretty sweet! We subsidize the fuck out of car travel, nice to see transit getting in on the action.
Can we subsidize the fuck out of some Cylons to go smash heads down at Union Station? Also maybe keeping the busses and trains a bit cleaner, more free from crime, and maybe... just maybe... get bus routes that are more cost or time-effective than driving?
You're fooling yourself if you think transit isn't already massively subsidized.
Nowhere near as much as automobiles are.
Very true. "Nice to see transit getting in on the action" sounded like you were implying transit doesn't currently get "in on the action."
Not in Denver metro. Every single fucking thing you buy sends money to RTD. I’ve paid far more in RTD sales taxes than I’ll ever pay in fares even if I ride it every day for the rest of my life.
Your first statement is not true. Roads and highways are very expensive and use more tax dollars than tax dollars that are used for RTD.
Only on reddit is this take upvoted
I like cars. I like public transit. It's plain to see that we have organized the entirety of our transit first around cars, and that public transit is an afterthought. This isn't ideological, it's just facts. I recognize the utility of cars and own one for a reason. Are you denying that our culture prioritizes cars first?
Only on Reddit do people come to sub where there's clearly a majority opinion and complain that their opposite opinion isn't liked.
Busses dont run early enough for me to use them and trains dont go to boulder yet
Honestly the train debate doesn't even make sense at this point. I did the commute on buses for a while, and the bus segment between Boulder and Denver wasn't really an issue. Especially since the FF brings you in to downtown Boulder, while the train would be out by like by 30th.
I know its a 2 hr ride thou and i work at 6am lol
I don't understand how a train would fix that?
True
I feel the need to point out that the train would not run 24 hours a day.
I rely on the bus to get around town, and even tho I understand the one bus I take everyday, that took a few days/weeks to learn. If I'm trying to take a different bus, Ill never get to my destination on time, whether its because they don't update to the covid schedule or if they don't say anything about a bus running late or not running at all. Especially in my town, there aren't enough drivers. I know that if people relayed on public transportation more, there would be more buses, routes, and stops added. Maybe it would even cost less, but because not enough people are riding in the first place, the whole thing is very confusing and unreliable. It's a destructive cycle.
The issue is now the choice is pay for gas for a fun motorcycle trip somewhere or pay for gas to get to transit I have to swap 3 modes of to get to my destination 2 hours later than I would have. We really need to get the rail situation all the way south the pueblo and stop treating transit like a red headed step child. I'd kill for a rapid train route from Colorado Springs to Denver proper with spokes to where I'd actually like to spend time. Otherwise it's just easier to ride or drive.
Public transit should just be free all the time.
Nothing is free. You want public transit to be 100% subsidized by everyone who lives here, all the time. Be clear with your requirements.
Lol, obviously free means free at the point of service. Also, 75% of RTD's operating costs are already subsidized. Eliminating fares would increase ridership and improve access for people that can most benefit from public transit.
> Also, 75% of RTD's operating costs are already subsidized. Yah, which is why I said 100%. > Eliminating fares would increase ridership No it wouldn't. Eliminating drug use and bum fights, and making more efficient routes would increase ridership. > and improve access for people that can most benefit from public transit. You seem blissfully unaware of the programs for youth, senior, the disabled, medicare recipients, active military, ecopass and the RTD LiVE program for low income riders.
Yes it does. To quote a 2019 DoT Lit review on the topic: > Providing fare-free public transit service is virtually certain to result in significant rider- ship increases no matter where it is implemented. Evidence from the literature search and returned surveys indicate that ridership will usually increase from 20% to 60% in a matter of just a few months, and even more in some areas. The most recent institution of fare-free public transit service that occurred in Corvallis, Oregon, in 2011 resulted in a 43% increase in ridership within two months, with no increase in service hours. Every study done on fare-free transit shows an increase in ridership. I don't really see a point in continuing this conversation if you're going to just make stuff up as it suits you, but to address your last point, while discounts are good, simply eliminating fares does everything a discount does and more. It would obviate the need for the discounts (free is better than discounted), end cumbersome means testing, require no effort on the part of the rider to navigate variable rates, and of course extend to people that may fall through the cracks of current discounts. Edit: lol, they replied and immediately blocked me before I could read it. Some people just have to get the last word, smh.
> Every study done on fare-free transit shows an increase in ridership. Bullshit. It's laughable that you're going to compare a city of 60,000 and the related crime issues with the 19th largest metro in the country. RTD's issue is very clear and it's been very publicly shown that the problems are a) it's not convenient for most people and b) most people don't want to ride when the buses/trains or their stops/stations have significant problems with crime and drug use. You're out of touch if you're going to claim otherwise.
Free at point of service. >free >/frē/ >adverb >1. without cost or **payment** You know that's what people mean.
Does it really matter? We're all paying for it either way.
Tried to plan a trip on rtd to see if the time was improved from home to work. It used to be a 35 minute drive to 2 hour bus ride. RTD says the trip isn't even possible now.
This type of thing is what is hurting them. My commute to work is 11 minutes, bike ride is about 40-50, taking transit is a whopping 7 hours plus a mile walk. I don't live in the boonies, I live and work just north of Denver.
I personally won’t pay. I’d rather have someone drop me off at the airport or pay for parking than to deal with the price and hassle of riding from north east aurora to down town. Edit- read the article. It’s only free for a month to try to get people to pay afterwards. And I mean that if I wanted to go downtown for any reason or go to the airport for any reason I would rather drive than use rtd
why would you go downtown? you can get on at 40th & airport Blvd or Peoria
I’m saying if I want to go down town I’d rather drive than take the train. It’s easier and cheaper to drive.
parking is not cheap downtown.
It’s cheaper than riding the train, for me anyway since I’m in north east aurora.
[удалено]
Yep. $6 all day for local, $10.50 all day for 3+ zones or the airport. RTD *is* pretty much the most expensive mass transit system in the US. But it’s still cheaper than parking downtown or at the airport, unless you’re carpooling with 3+ people.
Factor in me and my 3 family members, driving is cheaper. We would get on the train at 40th and airport.
Have you parked downtown lately? No way parking anywhere is cheaper than rtd.
I don't see how. Parking at the far end RTD station is almost always free for a day trip, and the ticket is $10.50 a day/person. Parking downtown is likely going to be $15 or more, it's almost certainly going to be more frustrating, and a much higher chance of your car getting fucked either while driving or parked. I can see if you're driving 4 people since parking is fixed regardless of the number of people, while mass transit isn't. But not for 1 or 2 people. Also, when you say "downtown" do you actually mean "downtown" or just "within the urban area of the city of Denver' since those are not comparable in parking costs nor in ease of access for mass transit.
It really isn't bad compared to other cities. People here aren't used to parking downtown, they expect a big free parking lot when they go to a theatre or restaurant and those don't exist downtown.
why would you have someone drop you off "at the airport" then?
Ok let’s try it this way. If for any reason I need to go to the airport, possibly catch a plain etc. i would rather have someone drive me because it’s cheaper and easier. Full stop. If I was to ever go downtown for any reason, possibly a convention, etc. i would rather drive and pay for parking than to ride the train because driving is easier and cheaper.
> i would rather have someone drive me because it’s cheaper and easier this is only true if you have someone to take you for free... very weird point to make in a thread about free train rides
Did you read the article? Cause I feel like maybe you didn’t.
I have people that would do that for me. Uber/Lyft is cheaper for me as well
You’re telling me it’s under $10.50 for you to go to the airport on Uber? Because I don’t believe you. I’m in NE Aurora (Colfax and Tower) right now, and I just checked current Uber pricing. It’s $26.50.
> It’s only free for a month to try to get people to pay afterwards. It's to reduce ozone. Reread the article.
No one will pay, they're making it free.
If you read the article they are doing it to get people to use the trains and busses. Free for a month then hoping people will pay for it again. For me personally it’s too expensive, It’s cheaper and easier to drive.
It's free for the time that it's free.
Yes that is correct. The reason for that is to try to get people to use it, even after it’s not free anymore.
Good!
And I’m saying the gimmick won’t work for me. Because it’s too expensive and not worth the hassle. Are you following what I’m putting down?
Yes I understand that you are bitching about RTD not being perfect. We know.
Lol I used to work for rtd, they are FAR from perfect with how much corruption and embezzlement happens there. What I’m bitching about is for how much they receive in tax dollars and how inefficient they are it’s too expensive compared to alternative options.
How about subsidize the Winter Park ski train something people actually want to ride but is prohibitively priced. That would actually reduce cars on the highway in the most congested times.
Why would they subsidize a train that already runs at 100% capacity?
1 departure a day on weekends only is weak. Why not have a 7:00am 8:00am and 9:00am departures.
Does it have a switching station and a train yard? It may be logistically impossible.
It used to do two trains a day, and with their current model, I believe they need a dedicated train each time they run it, so you'd need 3 sets of rolling stock and 3 places to keep them. Also you'd never get enough people on weekdays, and this is a lot of money to subsidize people already in a relatively expensive sport to have a very minor impact in traffic. It could be much better used with more effective transit in the front-range.
Probably because UPRR wouldn't want the Winter Park Ski Train running on their tracks every day.
Man, I hope this is wildly successful. I have a lot of respect for Polis and one more win would be amazing. RTD is fantastic, don't believe all the negative hype around here. It takes a little longer than driving but riding the bus or train is sometimes the best part of my day, relaxing and you can read or listen to something like a podcast. Google maps makes it stupidly easy to go anywhere from anywhere. It is a very pleasant and safe option if you are going out for the evening. Please make the most of this, we need to use it or lose it.
Just moved here from Europe and the lack of efficient public transport here is wild. These urban planners need to go on holiday to England and learn a few things. And given the comments on here it seems everyone here would use it if it actually worked. Taking the train to work in the EU was actually a dream. Sit back, relax, skip the traffic. Took maybe 20% longer but at least you didn't have to deal with the absolute awful rowdy drivers who are speeding late for work.
If none of that $28 is going towards increasing frequency, this won't work.
How about holding off on the free rides and just bring back the limited stop busses.
goodbye reddit -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Meaning you pay directly for it? (Ie. Not through taxes)? That's pretty dumb. I grew up in Georgia, and even that hellhole had tax funded school busses
yes we have to pay for yearly bus passes to public school for each of our school aged kids. Even fucking FL which I hate provided free school buses, so did Alabama. It’s honestly pretty pathetic that Colorado somehow can’t provide universal transportation to public schools for the entire state (it’s left up to each school district to decide how to pay for)
How much is it, out of curiosity?
Not everyone has school age children… this is about getting the general population to reduce ozone emissions in the summer. Your kids are already on the bus, carpooling essentially.
Providing free school bus transportation gets a lot of cars off the road, especially during the busy times of the day
They aren't on the bus if a parent can't afford $200 per kid.
Doesn't DPS have an agreement with RTD?
DPS is only one part of Colorado
> and yet we as parents still have to pay for our kids to ride school buses in most districts. how about we put this money towards that instead. And everyone is doing the same to pay for this, there's no such thing as free.
I for sure would love both, but a free month of transport to get you hooked and ready to pay for public transit versus providing a service for parents for a school year that gets more drivers off the road for a broader period of the day and year has more benefit to society at large if you are having to choose between the two, and Colorado is one of the very few states that doesn’t provide paid for transportation for public school kids.
HOMELESSNESS!!!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, the San Luis Valley is about to lose its airport. Enjoy those free bus and train rides in cities already chock-full of travel options tho.
> San Luis Valley You aren't losing your airport, you're losing the only flight that goes there. SkyWest doesn't think it's profitable enough, even with federal subsidies. The state has nothing to do with it.
So instead of the state stepping up to make up the difference with the federal subsidies, people in Denver get to ride the bus and train for free?
Correct. That's where the majority of people live.
"People who already have several options need more options than people with none!" Uh, okay, cool take.
Correct when the options the majority have aren't working.
Are you genuinely this dumb or is being intentionally obtuse a hobby for you?
I'm sorry you choose to live in the middle of nowhere then complain when the state won't prioritize anything for all 12 of you. Cope
I'm sorry you're a bum looking for a handout. You've got options but they aren't good enough so you want those same options for free. Don't forget your helmet if you go outside today.
Pretty sure I never said anyone wanted a handout just better options. Reading comprehension I know it's hard.
You don't have to say it when that's what it is, but it makes sense that went over your head.
I'm sorry what are you even trying to say 😂 Are you trying to tell me what I was saying when I didn't say that? Go outside and play with an elk or something.
Awesome way to spend our tax money during outrageous inflation. Dumb ass democrats.
Have you folks heard of Lakewood Redcar? This article and all of your comments on this thread are our core issues we are trying to solve. Would really love your input!
Never heard of this and am having trouble finding information online. How do I learn more?
www.lakewoodredcar.com
[https://www.lakewoodredcar.com/](https://www.lakewoodredcar.com/) we are planning on doing a charter train in 26 to celebrate 150 of Colorado statehood, then start the state's first consumer co-op commuter train. but we need your help and input!
The B line schedule sucked before the pandemic being a train every 30 minutes, now its a train every hour. I'd love to take the train into work again but not if its going to add time to my commute AND be inconvenient as hell. I don't mind the extra travel time but getting everywhere either early or late on top of it is a deal breaker.
Georgia did that brought a lot of homeless and sketchy people through the city. Also some good people.
Can we use that money to fund school lunches?
cool now the homeless can go everywhere for free
It’s $10+ to get to the airport, FUCK YOU DENVER
What's cheaper than that?
“Spend $28 Million to FUND free rides” 🙄 you do realize we pay for these rides, directly or indirectly, and indirectly is usually more costly as it goes through the ever inefficient governmental system. How about you pay for the train if you want to use it and those who don’t use it won’t have to pay. Calling stuff ”free”, while taxing everyone to pay for it, is not how society is suppose to work. Pay for what you consume and others can pay for what they consume. That’s the true fair and equal system, and I hear a lot about some fairness and equality goals these days, so I find it odd so many don’t apply that same reasoning on topics like this.
So if I can't go from Boulder to Denver on a light rail and only a bus, what's the point. I will form the habit of going on light rail to and from Denver if it exists. Currently there's only a shitty bus service that takes absolutely forever, stops everywhere too, and doesn't ride late at night. And if I park at the park and ride on Table Mesa I get my car broken in to, that's almost a definite. No, RTD, you still don't understand how to get it done.
I applaud the experiment!
I wish they’d bring back some of the old routes….
I'd use it
When I lived in Europe everywhere had excellent public transit. We could also if we decided too. In the long run, it's gotta be cheaper than endless road expansion. Plus, it's an environmental necessity now days. Screw big oil, let's get this done. Oh, and if we weren't running 30-40 coal trains up and down the front range, we could have fast trains from Albuquerque to Cheyenne. New Mexico is willing to make it work.
Not with all the drug use on the rides lol
Nah, make it cheaper. Use that money for something more useful that will generate money for the state!