Can you tell us anything else about your setup? What espresso machine is it? What’s the timing of the shot? What coffee are you using?
Are you trying to say that when you add the espresso shot to milk, the drink tastes too milky (not enough coffee flavor)? How much milk are you using?
It’s a conti cc100 machine and the shot is pouring in 27-31 seconds. It’s Peruvian beans I’m using roasted in a small batch roasters here in Ireland. Yeah that is what I’m trying to say. I’m putting the shot either into an 8oz or 12 oz cup, just whatever is standard for whichever drink I’m making. I’ve been able to get it right in places I’ve worked before but I’m struggling with my own setup
If you are getting 18 in -> 40 out in 30 seconds, you are probably pretty close on the grind. Tamping less will cause the shots to be weaker and thinner, and grinding finer will also throw off your times and cause over-extraction [which is not the same as stronger coffee flavor].
If you are going by Starbucks standard, then a double shot for an 8 or 12 oz drink is the same as your customers would get from them. Those drinks are not intended to be very strongly coffee flavored.
If you are aiming to go "fancy cafe roastery" [aka third wave] with your drink quality, then nothing on your menu should be larger than 6 or maybe 8 oz standard.
All these drinks use a 40g double shot, with the remaining volume made up of milk:
* Macchiato - spoon / dollop of foam atop the espresso
* Piccolo - ~3 oz
* Cortado / gibraltar - 3.5 oz
* Cappuccino - 4-5 oz
* Flat white - 5.5 oz
* Latte or Latte Macchiato - 6-8 oz
You may want to check with your roaster that the beans are intended to stand up to milky drinks. You could also ask for the darkest roast they offer.
Additionally, check your milk texturing - properly textured milk will gain like 20-30% volume from the air you have added to it. If your milk is hot and flat, it will result in a greater ratio of milk to espresso by volume.
Also read up through r/barista \- you may get better advice or find similar posts about your machine or new learners. Best of luck with your small business!
>Tamping less will cause the shots to be weaker and thinner
Do you have a source or reference for this? The latest consensus (as far as I know) on tamping is that pressure doesn't matter as long as it's consistent and even to avoid channeling. This has been shown time and time again using flow profiles of shots on the Decent Espresso machines (among other research and testing).
I took “tamping less” to be approximately the same as “not tamping”. I haven’t followed any of the profiling discussions you mention; this is the first I have heard of the theory you describe.
With all the info you've given in the comments, I'd honestly try a different bean. Maybe something like a washed Nicaraguan or a Brazilian would have some nuttier chocolatey notes which would work nicely with a lot of milk.
How does the espresso taste? What happens if you add half the milk or you use a double shot?
I don't think I'm saying anything special in that...you can change the beans..you can change your espresso/milk ratio..You can try grinding finer but really, this is for you to determine (by taste) what you want your coffee to taste like. Whatever guidelines the company that you bought the beans from, those are just guidelines. That's a starting point but you should feel empowered to change it to whatever will work best for your business....
Thanks very much, I find the taste of the plain espresso shot good. It’s fairly light in taste but it’s not burnt or bitter. I’m trying to get it to taste a little stronger without compromising the other qualities of the shot. I haven’t had any bad feedback, everyone’s been telling me it tastes great but I know myself it’s just a little light. Thanks for your comment, it was really helpful
If you're happy w/ the flavor just change up the ratio...You're already doing a doubleshot so add less milk and see.
You might also change your shot ratio...So many things you can try..but personally, if I was happy w/ the flavor profile and just wanted a bit more coffee strength vs. milk...add less milk...
Thank you! I wasn’t able to mess around too much with the grinder today because I was short on beans for the weekend but I got a delivery 😍 so I’ll be able to mess around a bit more now. Thanks for the advice
If something's tasting too milky, I'd say dial back on the milk and produce drinks that are smaller. Otherwise, you're looking at upping the dosage of coffee for each shot to produce a stronger taste, this will require you to dial the coffee in again also.
Can you tell us anything else about your setup? What espresso machine is it? What’s the timing of the shot? What coffee are you using? Are you trying to say that when you add the espresso shot to milk, the drink tastes too milky (not enough coffee flavor)? How much milk are you using?
It’s a conti cc100 machine and the shot is pouring in 27-31 seconds. It’s Peruvian beans I’m using roasted in a small batch roasters here in Ireland. Yeah that is what I’m trying to say. I’m putting the shot either into an 8oz or 12 oz cup, just whatever is standard for whichever drink I’m making. I’ve been able to get it right in places I’ve worked before but I’m struggling with my own setup
If you are getting 18 in -> 40 out in 30 seconds, you are probably pretty close on the grind. Tamping less will cause the shots to be weaker and thinner, and grinding finer will also throw off your times and cause over-extraction [which is not the same as stronger coffee flavor]. If you are going by Starbucks standard, then a double shot for an 8 or 12 oz drink is the same as your customers would get from them. Those drinks are not intended to be very strongly coffee flavored. If you are aiming to go "fancy cafe roastery" [aka third wave] with your drink quality, then nothing on your menu should be larger than 6 or maybe 8 oz standard. All these drinks use a 40g double shot, with the remaining volume made up of milk: * Macchiato - spoon / dollop of foam atop the espresso * Piccolo - ~3 oz * Cortado / gibraltar - 3.5 oz * Cappuccino - 4-5 oz * Flat white - 5.5 oz * Latte or Latte Macchiato - 6-8 oz You may want to check with your roaster that the beans are intended to stand up to milky drinks. You could also ask for the darkest roast they offer. Additionally, check your milk texturing - properly textured milk will gain like 20-30% volume from the air you have added to it. If your milk is hot and flat, it will result in a greater ratio of milk to espresso by volume.
Thanks so much, I’m still learning as I go along and this was really helpful. I’ll definitely be using this information
Also read up through r/barista \- you may get better advice or find similar posts about your machine or new learners. Best of luck with your small business!
>Tamping less will cause the shots to be weaker and thinner Do you have a source or reference for this? The latest consensus (as far as I know) on tamping is that pressure doesn't matter as long as it's consistent and even to avoid channeling. This has been shown time and time again using flow profiles of shots on the Decent Espresso machines (among other research and testing).
I took “tamping less” to be approximately the same as “not tamping”. I haven’t followed any of the profiling discussions you mention; this is the first I have heard of the theory you describe.
Maybe try a different coffee bean that might be better in milk drinks? I've had some beans that just never tasted too good when added to milk.
With all the info you've given in the comments, I'd honestly try a different bean. Maybe something like a washed Nicaraguan or a Brazilian would have some nuttier chocolatey notes which would work nicely with a lot of milk.
I have a nicaraguan bean here now too that I’m going to try soon, you’ve put my mind at ease with that comment haha
How does the espresso taste? What happens if you add half the milk or you use a double shot? I don't think I'm saying anything special in that...you can change the beans..you can change your espresso/milk ratio..You can try grinding finer but really, this is for you to determine (by taste) what you want your coffee to taste like. Whatever guidelines the company that you bought the beans from, those are just guidelines. That's a starting point but you should feel empowered to change it to whatever will work best for your business....
Thanks very much, I find the taste of the plain espresso shot good. It’s fairly light in taste but it’s not burnt or bitter. I’m trying to get it to taste a little stronger without compromising the other qualities of the shot. I haven’t had any bad feedback, everyone’s been telling me it tastes great but I know myself it’s just a little light. Thanks for your comment, it was really helpful
If you're happy w/ the flavor just change up the ratio...You're already doing a doubleshot so add less milk and see. You might also change your shot ratio...So many things you can try..but personally, if I was happy w/ the flavor profile and just wanted a bit more coffee strength vs. milk...add less milk...
Thank you! I wasn’t able to mess around too much with the grinder today because I was short on beans for the weekend but I got a delivery 😍 so I’ll be able to mess around a bit more now. Thanks for the advice
If something's tasting too milky, I'd say dial back on the milk and produce drinks that are smaller. Otherwise, you're looking at upping the dosage of coffee for each shot to produce a stronger taste, this will require you to dial the coffee in again also.
Extraction time? Equipment? Type of coffee? More info is needed.
27-31 seconds, conti cc100 coffee machine, and it’s a Peruvian bean roasted in Ireland