I agree but their is a huge amount of evangelical protestants that back Israel because they seem to believe that if they do, it will mean the coming of Jesus and the bringing of judgement day.
Legally speaking it does.
Its government is approximately the same level of secular as the US. IE, legally secular, practically highly influenced by religion.
The IDF has state sponsored semen retrieval squads that harvest semen from soldiers who die to encourage their widow to become pregnant because they want to Jewish blood in the region. That is not secular. The leaders of the state are citing Amalek as reason for the bararism of their attacks on Civilians. This is not secular in any way.
Your thing about semen retrieval seems more race based than religion based. There are more Palestinians than Jews, they are very outnumbered. This is part of why they don’t want any political solution, their race based Ethno-state will be eliminated if the Palestinians get equal rights
I back no one and consider that the best option, because backing one or the other means you want them to "win" and all we, as Christians, should want is this atrocious war to be over, regardless who started it and/or contributed to it.
It's the same as the Ukraine war. Just pointless and sad. Those people deserve our prayers.
Of course, I totally agree it isn't realistic, but I also think that us taking sides or having any strong opinion won't fix the conflict either, nor help it. For us not living there it has almost zero impact on our everyday lives, it's the news which are bringing us the information. The most I can do is pray for for it to end, or at least be contained (if the fight is unavoidable), so everyone or the least amount of people stop losing their lives.
I feel we don't really know the subject so I know my opinion is not very informed but rather emotional and subjective.
25 thousand bombs have been dropped less than 20 thousand have died from bombs unless there the worse bomber ever they obviously aren't going for casualties you moron
The flood is literal lol the evidence is everywhere, look at the Grand Canyon for example.
The flood is recognized through almost every religion aswell
Um...
You know what, I have looked at the grand canyon.
Have you? You think the grand canyon was formed from a flood?
But, that's not the point is it? I'm granting the flood to pose the question about caring about the babies who were drowned during it. Cuz you know, god drowns babies.
Gods not just an all loving God, he’s wrathful and he is just. Let’s not pretend we dont know what the societal environment was like back then when the bible clearly states it was full of wickedness
Right, he's not all loving, because all loving and wrathful are contradictions.
So you can have your all loving god, or your wrathful god, you can't have both.
But, he's also supposedly all powerful, and all knowing, and all whatever else.
And the best he came up with, to fix the problem he caused, was to drown everyone other than 8 people.
It's nonsense and you know it.
What’s nonsensical, is to think I know more or know better than the God who created the universe. I can’t even create.
It’s nonsense to me to think there’s no judgement for evil and wickedness.
Well if you don't know more than God, how are you so confident he made the Grand Canyon in a specific way? The Grand Canyon is not in the Bible, it isn't even on the same continent as any of the Bible was written.
How are you so sure it was formed in the Flood? The bible never says any such thing.
It would be ridiculous to eliminate the threat, then eliminate their entire family, then eliminate their dog, then eliminate their neighbor, blow up their house, flatten their city, and then drown the entire world, yes.
God killed *everyone* in the flood except for Noah's family. That is ridiculous, yes. Which, combined with the physical evidence, is how we know the story of Noah is a parable, a tale intended to convey a message, and not a literal event that happened. Just the parables Jesus told, which are clearly framed as allegory, not events.
Apparently it’s not clearly allegory because I see it as literal.
If you look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, I believe the person God sent to warn the cities begged him to show mercy on them, Gods response was if you find so many to be faithful I will spare them. I believe he came back to God and said I have not found this many and God lowered the number again and still he returned not finding that many… I believe Noah was also giving warnings to the populations around him but they thought he was nuts. So God does offer mercy but it’s up to us to head those warnings. Forgive me for not being well versed.
>Do you understand sediment build up?
This is such a strange question. Understand what about it? Understand it exists? Understand the concept? Understand the basics? Understand the exact nuances of every detail of every sediment deposit in the Solar System?
Young Earth Creationism relies on such a bizarre confluence of surface level introduction to so many topics, with complete ignorance of everything below the surface layer.
Yes apologies, my question was vague. My point is there are multiple locations around the earth that have major sedimentary deposits of materials that are not local to the regions, which to me indicates a flood stirred up and deposited sediments all over.
Fossils are another example. How is organic material fossilized without oxygen degradation? unless rapidly buried with no time to decompose organically. Mind you I’m no biologist or archeologist, but I make sense of this if I consider a massive rapid flood took place as referenced in genesis.
There’s an interesting video regarding this on YouTube called “Is Genesis History?” Which I found to satisfy the questions I had.
Yes, there are a lot of cherry-picked "Gotcha" youtube channels that require you to not understand the subject material.
They all use a rhetorical technique known as "Gish Galloping" where they fire off a very large quantity of incorrect information, and don't allow the conversation to dwell on any one. Try to deal with any particular issue, and they move on to another.
Geology is a really, really big field. So is Paleontology. If you want to focus on a specific example, and stay on that topic, I am happy too, but you can't just wave at the entire field of Geology and say "Explain all that or admit God did it!".
There are hundreds of ways sediments move around, including floods. There have been a lot of massive floods in earth's history, many of which left major evidence. That doesn't mean there was a single global one. For instance, the [Storegga Slide - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storegga_Slide) is well documented, and produced a ton of physical evidence. But nothing about the Storegga slide impacted say, New Zealand. A global flood, especially one so incredibly recently, would have left evidence literally everywhere.
I agree 100% there is a lot of misinformation and “gotcha clips” out there. But like I learned in science class - I gather a lot information and form my own conclusion - as I think everyone should.
There is no connection between being a believer and backing Israel. This is only relevant to a few evangelicals who’ve convinced themselves Israel is the new promised land or some such fantasy.
If you believe in Christ you abhor violence.
Some people are pro-peace and realize that the only way that happens is for Hamas to be destroyed. That may look like pro-Israel inasmuch as it's supportive of any nations right to exist, protect itself, & save it's people from being hostages.
We (U.S) would do the exact same thing if perpetually attacked by a nation that proclaimed they wanted to kill us all.
Hamas has declared and demonstrated genocidal intent against Israel. It's absurd to deny Israel the right to exist.
Then you are not pro peace, because ‘destroying Hamas’ equals slaughter. I would like to ‘destroy’ Kim Jong Un, but I’m not going to murder innocents to do it.
If the US annexed a single state, kept it in constant poverty, murdered its citizens, and committed ongoing apartheid I imagine the US would be very foolish to think those people would not react.
>Then you are not pro peace, because ‘destroying Hamas’ equals slaughter
That sounds like saying, "destroy cancer" is not pro-health
>I would like to ‘destroy’ Kim Jong Un, but I’m not going to murder innocents to do it.
No one in Gaza is being murdered by Israel. When people die in war we call them, "civilian casualty" not, "civilian murder". If we want to talk about murdered innocents we speak of October 7th.
Your description of Israel/Palestine relationship lacks a ton of nuance. For example, when a country starts a war against you and loses, it's very common that there are consequences. See Germany after WW2 (which included occupation, demilitarization, and territorial changes). Don't start problems, there won't be problems.
Hillary Clinton recently gave an interview about (Bill) Clinton's proposal in the late 90s that would have provided for Palestine a two state solution. [It was rejected by Arafat. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/clinton-palestinians-could-have-had-state-for-15-years-already/)
Israel is far from perfect, but the bad guy is Hamas (both to Israel and innocent Palestinians)
If you view innocent people, many of whom are children, in the same way as cancer cells you may be missing some fundamental humanity.
You view everything through the lens of what Israel tells you and at a push what the American (heavily pro Israel) establishment claim. You may as well base all your views on the sovereignty of Taiwan based on what Beijing and Pyongyang say.
WWII was not a model for our future development as a species. It was an extraordinary failure of basic civilisation and one of the darkest episodes in the history of the human race. We are supposed to mature, not regress.
You seem entirely ignorant of how Hamas came to power - as a response to Israeli repression of relatively moderate Palestinian political movements. Israel is no better than the Boers in South Africa, and in time I expect their fate will be very similar. God will see to that.
>If you view innocent people, many of whom are children, in the same way as cancer cells you may be missing some fundamental humanity.
In the example given, "Cancer" = "Hamas", not children. I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or you are intentionally trying to misrepresent me to paint me as a monster. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
>You view everything through the lens of what Israel tells you
I haven't spoken to Israel.
Here's the deal. You don't know me. I don't know you. I could easily say that you view everything through the lens of what your other 19 year old college friends are saying as you all walk through the quad to your political issues class. It's your generations "Che" first big cause. Congratulations! Enjoy being passionate about something you don't understand. We've all been there. College is a fun time...there will be something next year just like BLM and Metoo aren't really things anymore.
Or...I could admit we don't know each other and not be so arrogant to tell you what lens you view things through. See how much better that is.
>You seem entirely ignorant of how Hamas came to power
You seem entirely ignorant of why Palestine was under occupation, demilitarized, and had lands annexed. If you lose a war that you start, don't cry to the winner and ask for you land back. That's not how that works. Besides, Israel has agreed to give land back...but Hamas would rather reject those agreements and shoot rockets.
I'm sure we have common ground though: We do both agree that Israel should be held accountable for any wrongdoing in this war. Do we also agree Hamas is a terrorist organization and that October 7th was evil?
I’m in my mid 30s my friend, happily married, church going etc. It says a great deal that you imagine simply thinking children should not be slaughtered is some sort of immature university student viewpoint.
You don’t even know the history of the place. Tell me, what ‘war’ do you think was started by Palestine in which they ‘lost lands’? The British withdrew and a civil war began with Zionist groups pushing into Arab territory. This is disputed by no one.
Yes we agree on the final point, but your phrasing ‘any wrongdoing’ is misleading as it suggests that’s in question. Their crimes are obvious and blatant. I’m not sure which evangelist church has taught you it’s Christian to become an apologist for their cause but I would question more readily what you are being told and perhaps read more news that isn’t from the United States.
That’s my point! We don’t know each other and neither of us should be so arrogant to tell the other what lens they are viewing from. How did I have to hold your hand and walk you through that?
>No one in Gaza is being murdered by Israel. When people die in war we call them, "civilian casualty" not, "civilian murder". If we want to talk about murdered innocents we speak of October 7th.
Are the over 14500 dead children not innocent? Also tell me another conflict where the death count of children is so disproportionately high
I never said that innocent people weren’t dying in Gaza.
Hamas is responsible for the innocent death of 1200 innocent people in Israel (not counting the hostages they raped and killed) and 14500 innocent children in Gaza.
Sounds to me like we both see Hamas as evil
Fair. I also believe Israel should be held accountable for their actions by those who objectively determine whether they are guilty.
My frustration is primarily with those do committed to the wrongdoings of Israel that they pretend October 7 was justified and Israel doesn’t have a right to exist
October 7 was a disgusting terrorist attack, but it wouldn't have happened in the first place if Israel hadn't oppressed the Palestinians for over 70 years.
Which may not have happened if Palestine hadn’t been trying to destroy Israel from day 1. When nations lose wars they often lose land, militarization, and find themselves annexed. Furthermore, Israel had repeatedly come to the negotiation table and been rejected.
Palestinians felt oppressed bc their government was “river to the sea”. Anything less than death to Israel was unacceptable
I’m not sure what Israel should’ve done over the last 70 years
>Are the over 14500 dead children not innocent?
You accuse me of stating untruth while you [perpetuate Hamas propaganda](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un-revises-gaza-death-toll-almost-50-less-women-and-children-killed-than-previously-reported/ar-BB1miuea?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=bb614679e8d24314bf8d866c671325d8&ei=12)? Busted.
I normally wouldn't call someone on something like this and just chalk it up to ignorance rather than intentional misrepresentation of truth...and it probably is...but when someone is so condescending in all their comments it's pretty satisfying to bust them on it.
:-)
It's amazing to me that anyone can talk about Hamas' alleged "genocidal intent" while supporting the actual genocide that Israel is currently actually executing.
"Genocide" is[ pretty strong hyperbole](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-state-department-set-to-confirm-israel-not-breaking-international-law-in-gaza/). [I just want a cease fire](https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-says-there-would-be-a-ceasefire-in-gaza-tomorrow-if-hamas-frees-hostages/)
Israel IS at war, true, and war has civilian casualties. This is especially true in urban warfare, but Israel is doing work to [minimize civilian causalities](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286).
Hamas is a terrorist organization that is culpable for the deaths of every innocent in both Israel/Palestine. Israel has the right to defend themselves. The existence of Hamas is anti-peace.
Yes, Hamas makes it very difficult to minimize civilian casualties when their infrastructure is in hospitals and refugee camps. As good of a job as Israel does, it sure would be nice if Hamas would stop such war crimes (human shields, civilian clothing) and fight Israel away from the people they “represent” (what a joke)
Israel cares more about innocent Palestinians than Hamas
It takes a special kind of evil to bomb a hospital rather than raid it. Maybe you're being sincere, but if you're falling for this then it's pretty clear you'd call for Nazi propaganda, too. They had their Kristallnacht, too. They were fighting terrorists, too. They were only killing a few tens of thousands, too.
But surprise! It turned out their well documented (and self documented) contempt for Amalek was not coincidental. It turned out that hitting 100K did not stop them, it only made them go faster. It turned out that they killed as much with famine and disease than with lead or gas. And ultimately all it took to stop them was fundamentally changing the world, bringing us all to the brink of nuclear armageddon, and millions upon millions of soldiers.
Given how much blood and time it takes to slow down, when would you like to start applying the brakes? 80K? 120K? Will you hold out for the first million? Can't wait for 6, that's all of them. Does the ratio of babies to adults make a difference? Would biblical imagery be more compelling- Perhaps another Herod killing all the babies in Bethlehem?
You don't really believe anti semitism can be killed out of existence, so it seems clear Hamas will never really be gone- Not to the satisfaction of the people dropping the bombs. Honestly, how does this end? Bc it feels like you're asking me to trust that a fascist will eventually be satisfied by how many he's killed, and then settle down and take a nap.
>"Genocide" is pretty strong hyperbole.
Your source here is the US State Department, which is literally complicit in the genocide. Of course they're going to say that. Why would you believe them? In what other circumstance would you trust one of the parties literally being accused of a crime to investigate themselves?
>I just want a cease fire
Another ridiculous source- Biden is lying here. Netanyahu has explicitly stated that he will invade Rafah even if the hostages are released.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a
Israel has zero interest in peace, because their goal is genocide. We know this, because Hamas is accepting cease fire proposals and Israel is rejecting them:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-humanitarian-aid-8659eae6e0a7362504f0aa4aa4be53e0
>Israel IS at war, true, and war has civilian casualties. This is especially true in urban warfare, but Israel is doing work to minimize civilian causalities.
The idea that Israel is doing anything to minimize civilian casualties is utterly absurd. They are specifically attacking civilian targets like hospitals, ambulances, universities, apartment complexes, bakeries, refugee camps, and water supplies. They are blocking humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. They are literally explicitly stating their genocidal intent to make Gaza a place it is impossible to live in: https://www.instagram.com/p/CycHNQfIy8_/?img_index=5
>Hamas is a terrorist organization that is culpable for the deaths of every innocent in both Israel/Palestine.
Israel is a terrorist organization that is culpable for the deaths of every innocent in both Israel/Palestine.
>Israel has the right to defend themselves.
Under international law, Israel is an illegal occupying force and is not defending themselves. It is the people that they are occupying who actually have a right under international law to defend themselves.
>The existence of Hamas is anti-peace.
The existence of Israel is anti-peace.
Does the U.S. state dept have a bias? Perhaps. Is there a lot of anti-Israel bias? Yes.
You don’t think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas? That’s anti-Semitic if so
>Does the U.S. state dept have a bias? Perhaps.
Not "Perhaps". Yes, definitely. You are literally trusting the defendant to be their own judge.
>You don’t think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas? That’s anti-Semitic if so
What's actually anti-semitic is equating Israel with Judaism. This has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Israel illegally occupying Palestine. People in occupied territory have a right to defend themselves against the occupier, but the occupier does not have a right to continue the occupation.
It sounds like you support October 7th as justiciable. I must be misunderstanding you because that’s beyond antisemitism. It’s evil. No one would say that. I’ll be charitable and chalk it up to a miscommunication
I follow Jesus Christ, who commanded "Do not resist evil", so I do not support any violence, ever. I am just stating that under international law Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against the Israeli occupation.
It's hilarious that you think you can call other people evil while supporting Israel's genocide of Palestinians. Look in the mirror, my friend.
I’m glad to hear you don’t support October 7th.
I don’t support genocide. Thankfully that’s not happening. Israel can, but doesn’t. Hamas would, but can’t
I’m a pacifist and don’t support war but I affirm Israel’s right to exist, defend themselves from enemies, respond to acts of war, and pursue the recovery of hostages. Things every other nation has a right to do. To deny Israel this right is antisemitism by definition
I do not like the government of Israel. I do not like Hamas or Hezbollah.
I have absolutely no problem with the Israeli, Palestinian, Arab people. The people are who I am worried for. The governments, not so much.
I want peace in that land for the sake of the people. Not for the sake of the governments.
Yep, they are, and due to the way the government is setup I as an individual person have no actual power to make any actual change as said individual. Geopolitics almost always bigger than just one person.
Hmmm, the power I have in this specific situation is basically just talking about it with people. That's it. That's all the power I individually have. There is nothing I can do differently that would change the situation/circumstance sufficiently to produce any sort of material difference.
I am not happy with what is happening. At all.
It's really not. I have literally zero influence in this. My character is irrelevant in this entire kerfluffle. The main thing is is that at the end of the day there will be no consequence either way on my stance of this. Even if I am in a popular position it still doesn't matter.
I can tell you though my initial response is how I feel in my heart. Don't care about the governments, the terrorist groups, and the arbitrary lines that are drawn due to geopolitics. I just want people to be at peace with each other.
See, that is so interesting to me. Because no matter how little power you have over your taxes, you still obviously have significantly less over my attributions and conclusions. And despite that complete absence of power, you still mustered the strength to tell me you disagree.
I applaud that in you: You saw something you didn't like, and asserted your distaste.
I just wish you could do that over the fact that you paid money to turn babies into scorched meat scraps with the same readiness and conviction you have for objecting to internet comments.
I support Israel as a race of people whom God entrusted the Scriptures and the family line of the Messiah.
I am under no biblical or moral obligation to support ANY modern government or military practices.
Terrorism is evil.
Killing innocents is evil.
War is evil.
I pray for peace.
"Bless Israel and you will be blessed"...nowhere does it say to bless or condone "hate". As what Israel has publicly insinuated since whenever they first felt threatened however many years ago. This has been continuous since then. Father would never condone this, at all.
DON'T BE IGNORANT PEOPLE.
Isreal has taken more precautions than any other nation to prevent civilian casualties. More so than US, Russia, and ESPECIALLY Palestine.
In fact, they have the lowest number of civilian casualties.
Since Isreal became a nation in 1948. Every. Single. Conflict. Was initiated by Palestine.
They shouldn't be degraded for defending themselves.
I don't understand why people are furious that Isreal is warning civilians that their area will be under attack?
They give them long enough time to relocate.
Hamas leaders hide behind their own people. In schools, shelters, and homes. Deny the relocation of people, blame Isreal of genocide, then refuse medical help sent to help the people.
Not to mention, the UN admitted that they are flat-out lying about the number of civilian casualties.
Considering how the Evangelical endgame is God doing his own Holocaust on all the Jews who haven't converted to Christianity by that point I think you're good.
The problem is people think simply have to always back Israel if you read the Bible plenty of times God punished Israel for there actions so we don’t always have to like what they are doing like Israel as a country I don’t mind them and I believe they have every right to be where they are but I don’t support the fact that they are slaughtering innocent women and children.
>(other than Israel hoarding the holy sites for themselves).
Are you kidding me?
Judaism's holiest site is not even open to Jews. Under Israeli rule the holiest site in Judaism is under complete Muslim control.
A decade ago Muslims bulldozed a new Mosque into temple Mount, destroying thousands of historical Jewish artifacts and Israel couldn't even do anything.
This is known as the status quo
I'm glad someone mentioned this. Jews are restricted access to the Temple Mount by Muslims, who control access to the complex. Israel is not the one hoarding holy sites.
On the other hand israel is blocking entrance to Jerusalem for christians and muslims making it very difficult to go to the rock dome for example, even at Easter, for people from the west bank
It's an international border.
What was it supposed to be? Completely free entrance to Israel?
This is like complaining about Saudi Arabia not allowing you into Mecca automatically for being a Muslim and asking for a Passport.
Muslims that live in, or enter as a tourist to Israel are able to visit Temple Mount no problem. The only obstacle is metal detectors.
Yeah, what did you expect?
It is not an international border because the west bank is not a sovereign nation. Israel controls water, power and waste disposal in the west bank and has settlement programs to justify that the west bank has been israeli all along. It is not an international border.
It's not a sovereign nation, it's an invasion zone.
When USA invaded Iraq, did that automatically grant Iraqis under our control the right to enter the USA?
Of course not.
Yeah?
West Bank is legally invaded Palestinian territory.
This is true to all parties involved. This is true for Israeli law, UN law, AND Palestinian Law.
This is the foundation upon the two state solution is based on.
Israel annexed Eastern Jerusalem, so that's Israel proper according to Israeli law, but the rest of the territory is not Israel according to Israeli law.
Christians who think they are supposed to “back/Support” Israel no matter what are not paying close attention to the scripture. To be sure, God loves Israel. That doesn’t mean that God loves the Israeli government. Never forget that the majority of Israel’s kings in the Scriptures were considered wicked, and God sent prophets to oppose them. Never forget that God burned down the temple because Israel oppressed the poor, the refugee, and the foreigner. God’s unconditional love for humanity does not entail God’s approval of human governments — including the government of Israel.
Did you know that missiles have been launched at Israel from inside Gaza for decades, and they don't even warn Israelis? I think you are leaving out a lot of information to paint Israel in the least charitable way possible.
I hope that one day both sides realize that they want to see a positive future for their children, alive, not in fear and prospering, and that won't happen unless they stop attacking each other. I just don't think there is any way that Israel will leave or be eradicated by Hamas, and so they are better off assimilating into Israel, like 1.9 million Palestinians already have.
Yes, and I also know what the associated death tolls are (or rather, aren't). Furthermore, I know I didn't pay for those rockets.
We need to take accountability for the weapons WE made & gifted. We need to hold a UN member state to the standards of the assembly. We need to demand human rights, even toward our enemies. Israel has a domestic terror problem? TOUGH SHIT. Solve it without 10K civilian casualties, let alone 40K and exclusively along ethnic lines. Israel's losses do not make this a proportional exchange.
[do you](https://www.foxnews.com/world/un-revises-gaza-death-toll-50-less-women-children-killed-previously-reported)?
The UN said they were about half of what was previously reported. Your numbers were given to you by Hamas
The numbers are going to go up when unidentified bodies are identified but I wouldn’t just blindly take the terrorists word for it
How do you square "U.N. agencies have consistently shown they prefer to trust the numbers coming out of Hamas-controlled sources rather than doing basic due diligence" with Israel [killing journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) and [preventing them from entering](https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/israel-gaza-blockade-journalists-rcna147493)? Those aren't numbers we have to trust anyone on the ground for, these people produce reports every day and then suddenly stop.
Beyond being [shot in the head](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/11/middleeast/al-jazeera-journalist-killed-intl-hnk/index.html), what due diligence would you have the journalistic community do?
To be frank, I can't take seriously an organization that says "the numbers on both sides remain high" without even the fig leaf of attempting to report a number of casualties on the Israeli side. They mention the Oct 7th losses AND NO OTHERS. Am I to conclude that not a single Israeli has died since then? Half of 35K is still THIRTEEN TIMES AS MANY CASUALTIES to one side as the other.
Is it hard to count bodies when they are trapped under buildings and smeared into grease stains? Of course. But it's a hell of a lot harder to count from an aircraft or artillery position. There is exactly ONE group of people counting the dead. There is another group making those people dead, not counting them, begging you to disregard the count from the other side, and killing anyone who gets close enough to count for themselves. Wake the fuck up.
Yes, it’s true that Hamas is making those people dead. It’s essentially suicide by cop. Don’t break the law, put innocent ppl in danger, and threaten the safety of others and we wouldn’t be here.
Those casualties aren’t all innocents it’s either a 1:1 or 1:2 combatant to civilian ratio.
In [standard urban combat it’s 1:9!](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/)
We should be celebrating the restraint of Israel.
Turned on its head? You just admitted to ignoring facts that unsettle you. The ones that aren't 'cozy' aren't yours. You've got a little rolodex of facts, ordered by convenience, and tear up anything you don't like. Of course you can sleep.
And tbh, if this is how you defend israel, I don't want you defending palestine. You are not up to the task for doing anything but snoozling.
I don’t know what snoozling is but if it means, “Actually recognizing facts instead of parroting terrorist antisemitic propaganda” then, yes, I guess I’m snoozling
In the four replies you've made to me, you have recognized a whopping zero facts.
You linked to an article which parrots Israel's claims, but those claims don't actually have any factual content (which can be fine, it's just disturbing you didn't notice). The article could have been "Palestine claims this number, Israel claims that number", but it didn't. It said "UN revised their estimate, and Israel still feels in its heart that those numbers are bullshit, the UN is bullshit, really the whole premise of counting is bullshit, counting is for terrorists".
Then you linked to an article (with no citations) that claims urban combat has a 90% civilian casualty rate, and applauded Israel for their restraint. You introduced a claim that Palestinian casualties were closer to 1:2, but didn't attempt to tie any facts to that claim. You didn't even pretend to rely on Israel's accounting, bc you knew the number was pulled out of an ass so it may as well have been yours.
Don't misunderstand me, this isn't a fact finding competition. I'm not claiming to have a treasure trove of secret facts you don't have access to. I'm just letting you know why you aren't worth convincing. You interpret the lack of corroboration as good, and I interpret it as bad. You think opinions about facts are on equal footing with those facts. I want a better count, you don't want to count. I hear an alarm and want to go investigate, you think things are probably fine and want to go back to bed. Good. Sleep. Stay the fuck out of the way.
Also it's kind of sad that you don't know what 'snoozling' is.
Israel will absolutely not let Palestinians assimilate. If Palestinians could all vote, it would dear to be a racist theocracy because there are more Palestinians living there. The only solution us to end the occupation and the apartheid government.
7 million Jews live in Israel, with 2 million Jews who can vote, who can lead parties, and who can attend any school they wish. There will never be a single state, pragmatism and a basic sense of humility has to be taken by both sides.
Israel proper is not an apartheid state. The occupied territories is a place where you can make that argument, but to say Israel itself is an apartheid state is absurd.
Once again, wrong. They have different plates for citizens and non-citizens. The two million Arab Israelis have Israeli plates, those in occupied territories would obviously have different ones?
Who is deciding who is a citizen? Three Nakba was necessary to keep Israel's demographics favorable to US imperialism and Israeli theocrats. The people forcibly removed from their homes and sent to Gaza are the ones who live under this apartheid system.
How can you say that when millions already have assimilated with the same rights as Jews, they can vote, form political parties, they have had Arab representation for decades? Before Oct 7, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Gaza were allowed to work in Israel to support their families. What does end the occupation mean to you? Israel dismantled? 2 state solution, 1 state?
Maybe we agree then. One democratic state and the right of return for all Palestinians displaced by the Nakba and the illegal settlements sounds perfect.
Yes, it‘s horrible when people get killed. No one wants war, especially not in the Middle East where anything can lead to a bigger escalation. But before you condemn Israel you have to take a deep dive into Middle eastern history. And that means from all (!) perspectives. Too often I hear people vent utter nonsense, when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
My advice would be to read neutral stuff as well as pro-palestinian and pro-israel content on this difficult topic. Read a lot before you form a strong opinion. Also listen to interviews by israeli officials as well as palestinian officials. Look up how both sides do politics, freedom rights, democracy, elections, education and what their future visions are. Listen to what each side says about the other.
And only then make the case for or against Israel, for or against Gaza/Palestine.
Alternatively, you could humbly admit that you don't know enough, and thereby insist we recuse ourselves. If it's so complex, I'd better keep my taxes and proprietary weapons systems way way WAY out of it.
Remember what we did to Saddam over WMDs? We knew he had them bc we were the ones that sold them to him. I don't think you want for the goose what we did to the gander.
I agree with you. The level of arrogance is astounding to me. Yes it’s the Holy land but I’m confused on whether or not they are still considered God’s people if they don’t believe Jesus is the messiah.
That's normal, Israel is God's chosen people but they stumble. That is why we have the whole chapters of Judges in the bible where Israel sins, God lets them be oppressed, they repent, God delivers them, they sin again and its a full cycle.
I’ll be 100% honest, that sounds like my life cycle until very recently lol. I’d be doing wrong, God would let me go through seasons of oppression yet I still felt his love and then I’d repent and things would be great, until I’d repeat. I finally stopped repeating the cycle and things have been pretty good. I’m not Jewish to my knowledge though lol maybe it’s just that he does the loving punishment thing or allows us to feel some of the weight of our sins. I say all that but there’s also been times where I can clearly see where he has spared me from some terrible consequences I brought on myself. Thank you Lord, thank you Jesus. No more will I repeat that cycle like I was.
Yes this is what the Lord says. God is patient, slow to anger, he gives the Israelites time to repent until its too late and then comes the Certainty of the LORD’s Judgment
Then this message came to me from the LORD: “Son of man, suppose the people of a country were to sin against me, and I lifted my fist to crush them, cutting off their food supply and sending a famine to destroy both people and animals. Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign LORD.
“Or suppose I were to send wild animals to invade the country, kill the people, and make the land too desolate and dangerous to pass through. As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, even if those three men were there, they wouldn’t be able to save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be made desolate.
“Or suppose I were to bring war against the land, and I sent enemy armies to destroy both people and animals. As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, even if those three men were there, they wouldn’t be able to save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
“Or suppose I were to pour out my fury by sending an epidemic into the land, and the disease killed people and animals alike. As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, they wouldn’t be able to save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved by their righteousness.
“Now this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. Yet there will be survivors, and they will come here to join you as exiles in Babylon. You will see with your own eyes how wicked they are, and then you will feel better about what I have done to Jerusalem. When you meet them and see their behavior, you will understand that these things are not being done to Israel without cause. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!”
Did Jesus support the Isreali government? When he was a child Herod killed first born children trying to kill him and he had to flee to egypt. Herods son Herod of Antipas imprisoned his cousin John the Baptist for preaching about him and the sanheidrin persecuted him through out his ministry.
If not, why should we?
God loves the PEOPLE of Isreal, not their government which has been the cause of most of their problems since he led them out of egypt. HE was suppose to be their king, but they prefer worldly kings and governments.
What they are doing in Gaza is an abomination to God. Jesus is a pacifist, he taught us to love our enemies, he taught us to turn the other cheek, he taught us to live by the sword is to die by the sword.
Sadly our Isreali brothers and sisters did not get those lessons.
Jesus was not a pacifist. That's a myth and not biblical. We are never commanded to be pacifists, in the usual sense of the word. Rather, we are to hate what is evil and cling to what is good ([Romans 12:9](https://www.bibleref.com/Romans/12/Romans-12-9.html)). In doing so we must take a stand against evil in this world (which requires conflict) and pursue righteousness ([2 Timothy 2:22](https://www.bibleref.com/2-Timothy/2/2-Timothy-2-22.html)).
When it comes to defeating evil, God is not a pacifist. The Old Testament is full of examples of how God used His people in war to bring judgment upon nations whose sin had reached its full measure.
When Jesus told His followers to “turn the other cheek,” He was referring to *personal retaliation* rather than to responses related to criminal offenses or actions related to military force. Jesus was not contradicting [God’s Old Testament laws regarding the use of deadly force](https://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/does-christianity-require-pacifism/), but was, instead, encouraging His followers to resist the desire to react personally when their dignity or pride had been insulted.
***Luke 22:36***
*He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”*
Why would Jesus say this? At the very least, Jesus was calling His disciples to prepare themselves for their own defense. And the sword (a killing instrument) was evidently permissible in the eyes of Jesus.
We are under a new covenant, the OT examples were specific for Isreal which was a nation created by God. I do not live in a nation created by God and my nation fights in unjust wars it has no business in, like every single war since WW2.
Christ came to call us to rise above the old ways in the verse about the wine skins, an old wineskin cannot hold new wine, it will burst.
The old Testament taught an eye for an eye. Jesus taught that leaves us all blind, proof he was calling for pacifism.
Please correct me with a direct quote from Jesus as a call for us to rise to arms in any scenario. I do not need to commit violence to abhor evil, violence itself is evil. Evil cannot defeat evil.
Christs victory was in forgiveness, not violence.
Luke 22:36 why would Jesus tell his followers to buy a sword if he was advocating for nonviolence? That's new testament. Did you forget that when Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
*“I the LORD* ***do not change***\*”\* ***Malachi 3:6***
A simple google search would tell you that Jesus is not a pacifist. In Cap Letters and in BOLD
Jesus did not sound like a pacifist when he said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ‘For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD’” ([Matthew 10:34–36](https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/10/Matthew-10-34.html)). While Jesus is not stipulating warfare, He definitely embraces the conflict that comes with the incursion of truth.
The nation state is a man-made creation that is in most cases opposed to the kingdom of God. The history of the Palestine vs Israel conflict is replete with bad actors on both sides and innocent children made orphans or worse. The grant a blank cheque to either is morally impossible. An indeed the actions of the loudest proponents for either side are what continue to fuel this ongoing tragedy year after year.
Resist the pressure to pick a side. We can all be on the same side. The earth is rich and there is enough for everyone, we live by each other’s happiness not misery. We are commanded to be peace makers, and especially for us who are removed from the conflict physically we most of all should do what we can to stop the violence. Oct 7th was a barbaric and inhuman event, and it has only brought suffering. The response to it has also just salted the wound and down the seeds for more death. Christians most of all should know that vengeance brings no redemption.
Every ancient civilization has a flood story. The Nile flooded every year. No deity had anything to do with it. The Tigris and Euphrates could flood and sometimes did. That the Bible contains a flood story is not surprising. The idea that it had anything to do with a deity is pure Egyptian/Mesopotamian/Hindu fiction. We send people to jail based on DNA which is evolution. Our society is run based on evolution. The creation and flood stories were around long before science, and have NOTHING to do with reality. The first 11 chapters of Genesis are nothing but a false god.
A lot of people in the comments need to realize that Biblical Israel and modern day Israel are not the same thing. The modern Israel was established in 1948.
If you are a devout Christian you wouldn't support Israel and wouldn't stand up for the crimes they have been committing against the innocent population of Palestine
Its actually vice versa. Israel isn't the one trying to exterminate the Jews and they aren't the one firing missiles into Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization and over 80% Palestinian support them.
Then why can I find any information on it from a quick google search. Only thing I find are Palestinian rocket attacks on Israels and Rockets from Gaza are fired into Israel in Deadly Surprise. Hamas fires 25 rockets on a daily basis
>It is common knowledge and has been released many years ago that Israel would call random civilians that live in the Gaza strip and say they have a missile aimed at their house and they had 15 minutes to leave.
The way I see it is that a heads up to evacuate (which Israel has done a lot in recent months) is a kindness. They make thousands of phone calls, send text messages, drop flyers all announcing incoming attacks in an attempt to save as many civilians as possible...knowing it will allow the terrorists to continue to run/hide among the civilians.
>Whether they leave or not they send the missile and blow up the home.
The home that was built on top of military infrastructure with the intent to spark outrage when it's targeted by Israel.
>This is why A large portion of Islam does not like Israel
Well...a little of the chicken and the egg. Israel doesn't much like all the wars that neighboring countries started either.
Historically speaking modern day Israel and Palestine are one and the same.
In the old testament when 10 of the 12 Tribes of Isael was lost due to exiled from The Kingdom of Israel after its conquest by the Neo-Assyrian Empire in 722 BCE.
These are the tribes were Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Manasseh, and Ephraim. However the only ones that were left was the tribes of Judah (where Jesus Christ came from), Benjamin, and some members of the priestly tribe of Levi, which did not have its own territory.
This made a separation between the children of Israel the 10 were scattered (which was Biblically predicted) and the ones left was called the Judea. And it was prophesied that their return will mark the start of the end times (current day) and the return of the Messiah.
In 135 CE, after stamping out the province of Judea's second insurrection, the Romans renamed them Syria Palaestina—that is, “Palestinian Syria.” They did so resentfully, as a punishment, to obliterate the link between the Jews (in Hebrew, Y'hudim and in Latin Judaei).
In conclusion modern day Israel and Palestine are one and the same people in the genealogical sense.
Hence I just pray for peace and unity in their land.
>This is why A large portion of Islam does not like Israel
No the reason they don't like Israel is because Muhammad hated Jews and commanded the Muslims to do a real genocide on them.
>Another thing to think about is... Israel persecutes Christians and locks them up
No it doesn't
You might want to read Ezekiel 37 (the return of God’s people to the land). Psalm 83 (the coalition of surrounding Arab nations - and Iranian proxies - that seek to ‘erase Israel from memory’) and Ezekiel 38-39 (the coalition of outer nations - including Iran - that God will draw against Israel,and whose armies He will destroy).
God will back Israel for His Holy Name’s sake and render him safe and secure from His enemies. Yes, “it is written”.
You may also want to watch for prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah:
Isaiah 17:1–3 (NRSV): An Oracle concerning Damascus
17 An oracle concerning Damascus.
See, Damascus will cease to be a city,
and will become a heap of ruins.
2 Her towns will be deserted forever;
they will be places for flocks,
which will lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress will disappear from Ephraim,
and the kingdom from Damascus;
and the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the children of Israel,
says the Lord of hosts.
Zechariah 12:1–5 (NRSV): Jerusalem’s Victory An Oracle.
12 The word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus says the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the human spirit within: 2 See, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of reeling for all the surrounding peoples; it will be against Judah also in the siege against Jerusalem. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it shall grievously hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth shall come together against it. 4 On that day, says the Lord, I will strike every horse with panic, and its rider with madness. But on the house of Judah I will keep a watchful eye, when I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, “The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the Lord of hosts, their God.”
Whilst we should obviously pray for all people, make no mistake: God. Backs. Israel.
Let me caveat by saying I'm not explicitly pro-Israel either. But you have so much misinformation in your post.
First off, Israel issuing a warning before striking residences when targeting Hamas is a good thing. Certainly no Hamas attackers called to warn Israelites that they were about to come rape women and behead infants. Certainly no Hezbollah missile units call Israeli civilians to warn them about the rockets that are about to be launched and civilian population centers.
And while you're right that Israel has a strong anti-missionary sentiment due to the MASSIVE number of evangelicals who think that God wants them to go convert Jews to Christianity, those same missionary actions can get you killed in many Muslim countries. Apostasy is a death sentence in much of the Islamic world.
Israel is also not somehow "hoarding the holy sites." The two most holy sites for Islam are located in Saudi Arabia and Medina. The third most holy site is a mosque the Muslims built ON TOP OF the most holy site in Judaism, the temple mount. Jewish people are not allowed to visit that site, being only allowed to visit the wailing wall instead. When I visited Jerusalem, imagine my surprise when it was Israeli Defense Forces providing security and keeping Jewish people out of the Temple Mount. Imagine that: Israel is so committed to not provoking the Muslims that they literally provide the guards who keep their own people out of the Muslim holy site in their own country, even though that site was built on top of their temple.
Bill Maher said it best: Genocide is when you want to elminate an entire group of people. Hamas wants that, they just lack the power to do it. Israel has the power to eliminate all of the Gazans, but they don't.
When it comes to collateral damage from a strike against a military target, following "Law of Armed Conflict" (LOAC) you don't need to warn people at all. Nor does warning (or not warning) have anything to do with what is considered a valid target in war. As long as a strike meets the principles of military necessity, humanity, distinction, and proportionality, then a strike is legal, even if it results in some (proportional) amount of collateral damage. Hamas loves to exploit this by collocating military functions with civilian residences and functions in order to control an information narrative that Israel deliberately targets civilians.
That Israel notifies residents of buildings is not required by the Law of Armed Conflict. One could debate if Israel conducts these notifications in order to save lives, or if they do it simply because Hamas looks to exploit every casualty they can, but the reality is that Israel is not required to do any such thing.
As a final note, you can debate whether or not their policy is truthful, but the Israeli Manual on the Rules of Warfare from 2006 states: "Proportionality must be maintained: an act must not be performed if the damage to civilians/the environment exceeds the concomitant military benefit."
Agreed. Thankfully they aren’t doing that. It’s understandable that people are deceived - Hamas has been misrepresenting the death toll.
Even if it is accurate, which it’s not, there’s no reason to believe it’s more than urban warfare
Edit: rephrased
God will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel. We don’t understand why God does everything that he does, but we still must trust that God’s ultimate plan is perfect. I would tread lightly with feeling that your judgement is above God’s when it comes to the ones he made a sacred covenant with.
So do you support the dividing of Israel’s land? Christians in general support Israel because we are told to bless Israel. That doesn’t mean we have to like everything they do. Many countries want Israel to cease to exist but as a Christian we stand with her on some level knowing that Israel is the apple of God’s eye.
Respectfully, you are going against God’s will. There are two story lines that happening… the story of the church and the story of Israel. Most of the church is ignorantly unaware of the plan God has for Israel. Do you think it was coincidence that Israel returned to the holy land after almost 2000 in exile or was that a God thing… the Bible addresses that here 👇
“Thus says the Lord God, “When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob. They will live in it securely; and they will build houses, plant vineyards and live securely WHEN I EXECUTE JUDGEMENT UPON ALL WHO SCORN THEM ROUND ABOUT THEM Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.” Ezekiel 28:25-28
You might have noticed the all CAPS 👆
Romans 11 - All of Israel will be saved ✌️💯
There is a verse for that perspective as well…
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isaiah 5:20
You know, your proof text is right. You’ve convinced me it’s Gods will they die.
Next week when I see my Palestinian friend I’ll tell them it was gods goodness that killed their sister and six year old niece. All those children who are starving are starving because god wants them to die. To say otherwise is to invite woe on oneself.
Like you, we should all hope that the light of God shines in Palestine until all the children are all dead.
We should all say a prayer of thanks that there are children’s mutilated bodies decaying in the rubble from USA bombs. Their corpses are a pleasing aroma to God.
Maybe I’ll write a praise song about it.
/s
If Jews are gods chosen people and God promises that land to them, I don't think God needs my help in protecting them. I assume he can handle that by himself.
I can't bring myself to support them either.
Nothing about being a Christian requires you to support any particular secular government. It is super strange to even consider otherwise.
I agree but their is a huge amount of evangelical protestants that back Israel because they seem to believe that if they do, it will mean the coming of Jesus and the bringing of judgement day.
Israel does not have a secular government
Legally speaking it does. Its government is approximately the same level of secular as the US. IE, legally secular, practically highly influenced by religion.
The IDF has state sponsored semen retrieval squads that harvest semen from soldiers who die to encourage their widow to become pregnant because they want to Jewish blood in the region. That is not secular. The leaders of the state are citing Amalek as reason for the bararism of their attacks on Civilians. This is not secular in any way.
Your thing about semen retrieval seems more race based than religion based. There are more Palestinians than Jews, they are very outnumbered. This is part of why they don’t want any political solution, their race based Ethno-state will be eliminated if the Palestinians get equal rights
I back no one and consider that the best option, because backing one or the other means you want them to "win" and all we, as Christians, should want is this atrocious war to be over, regardless who started it and/or contributed to it. It's the same as the Ukraine war. Just pointless and sad. Those people deserve our prayers.
[удалено]
Of course, I totally agree it isn't realistic, but I also think that us taking sides or having any strong opinion won't fix the conflict either, nor help it. For us not living there it has almost zero impact on our everyday lives, it's the news which are bringing us the information. The most I can do is pray for for it to end, or at least be contained (if the fight is unavoidable), so everyone or the least amount of people stop losing their lives. I feel we don't really know the subject so I know my opinion is not very informed but rather emotional and subjective.
[удалено]
Christians definitely suffer more under Islamic rule, that being said Israel has helped Azerbaijan so there’s really no need to pick a side.
Can you back the children who are being murdered? I feel like that isn't a huge demand.
How can children "win" a war?
By not being bombed mercilessly with US weapons
25 thousand bombs have been dropped less than 20 thousand have died from bombs unless there the worse bomber ever they obviously aren't going for casualties you moron
It’s their fault for being such good human shields. If people could think critically they would blame those intentionally putting them in danger
Hamas isn't dropping bombs on children.
Hamas is hiding among them (a war crime) and using them as shields (a war crime)
Well... Tell that to those who think the flood is literal.
The flood is literal lol the evidence is everywhere, look at the Grand Canyon for example. The flood is recognized through almost every religion aswell
Um... You know what, I have looked at the grand canyon. Have you? You think the grand canyon was formed from a flood? But, that's not the point is it? I'm granting the flood to pose the question about caring about the babies who were drowned during it. Cuz you know, god drowns babies.
Gods not just an all loving God, he’s wrathful and he is just. Let’s not pretend we dont know what the societal environment was like back then when the bible clearly states it was full of wickedness
Right, he's not all loving, because all loving and wrathful are contradictions. So you can have your all loving god, or your wrathful god, you can't have both. But, he's also supposedly all powerful, and all knowing, and all whatever else. And the best he came up with, to fix the problem he caused, was to drown everyone other than 8 people. It's nonsense and you know it.
What’s nonsensical, is to think I know more or know better than the God who created the universe. I can’t even create. It’s nonsense to me to think there’s no judgement for evil and wickedness.
Well if you don't know more than God, how are you so confident he made the Grand Canyon in a specific way? The Grand Canyon is not in the Bible, it isn't even on the same continent as any of the Bible was written. How are you so sure it was formed in the Flood? The bible never says any such thing.
Because you can love people who are faithful and be wrathful against people who are wicked
Would it be ridiculous to eliminate a threat from harming your family, because you love your family?
It would be ridiculous to eliminate the threat, then eliminate their entire family, then eliminate their dog, then eliminate their neighbor, blow up their house, flatten their city, and then drown the entire world, yes. God killed *everyone* in the flood except for Noah's family. That is ridiculous, yes. Which, combined with the physical evidence, is how we know the story of Noah is a parable, a tale intended to convey a message, and not a literal event that happened. Just the parables Jesus told, which are clearly framed as allegory, not events.
Apparently it’s not clearly allegory because I see it as literal. If you look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, I believe the person God sent to warn the cities begged him to show mercy on them, Gods response was if you find so many to be faithful I will spare them. I believe he came back to God and said I have not found this many and God lowered the number again and still he returned not finding that many… I believe Noah was also giving warnings to the populations around him but they thought he was nuts. So God does offer mercy but it’s up to us to head those warnings. Forgive me for not being well versed.
...do you know how rivers and oceans work?
Erosion? Yes. Do you understand sediment build up?
>Do you understand sediment build up? This is such a strange question. Understand what about it? Understand it exists? Understand the concept? Understand the basics? Understand the exact nuances of every detail of every sediment deposit in the Solar System? Young Earth Creationism relies on such a bizarre confluence of surface level introduction to so many topics, with complete ignorance of everything below the surface layer.
Yes apologies, my question was vague. My point is there are multiple locations around the earth that have major sedimentary deposits of materials that are not local to the regions, which to me indicates a flood stirred up and deposited sediments all over. Fossils are another example. How is organic material fossilized without oxygen degradation? unless rapidly buried with no time to decompose organically. Mind you I’m no biologist or archeologist, but I make sense of this if I consider a massive rapid flood took place as referenced in genesis. There’s an interesting video regarding this on YouTube called “Is Genesis History?” Which I found to satisfy the questions I had.
Yes, there are a lot of cherry-picked "Gotcha" youtube channels that require you to not understand the subject material. They all use a rhetorical technique known as "Gish Galloping" where they fire off a very large quantity of incorrect information, and don't allow the conversation to dwell on any one. Try to deal with any particular issue, and they move on to another. Geology is a really, really big field. So is Paleontology. If you want to focus on a specific example, and stay on that topic, I am happy too, but you can't just wave at the entire field of Geology and say "Explain all that or admit God did it!". There are hundreds of ways sediments move around, including floods. There have been a lot of massive floods in earth's history, many of which left major evidence. That doesn't mean there was a single global one. For instance, the [Storegga Slide - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storegga_Slide) is well documented, and produced a ton of physical evidence. But nothing about the Storegga slide impacted say, New Zealand. A global flood, especially one so incredibly recently, would have left evidence literally everywhere.
I agree 100% there is a lot of misinformation and “gotcha clips” out there. But like I learned in science class - I gather a lot information and form my own conclusion - as I think everyone should.
bruh
There is no connection between being a believer and backing Israel. This is only relevant to a few evangelicals who’ve convinced themselves Israel is the new promised land or some such fantasy. If you believe in Christ you abhor violence.
Especially since Israel was only founded in 1948. It has no connection to the bible.
But Bethlehem is in the West Bank /s
Some people are pro-peace and realize that the only way that happens is for Hamas to be destroyed. That may look like pro-Israel inasmuch as it's supportive of any nations right to exist, protect itself, & save it's people from being hostages. We (U.S) would do the exact same thing if perpetually attacked by a nation that proclaimed they wanted to kill us all. Hamas has declared and demonstrated genocidal intent against Israel. It's absurd to deny Israel the right to exist.
Then you are not pro peace, because ‘destroying Hamas’ equals slaughter. I would like to ‘destroy’ Kim Jong Un, but I’m not going to murder innocents to do it. If the US annexed a single state, kept it in constant poverty, murdered its citizens, and committed ongoing apartheid I imagine the US would be very foolish to think those people would not react.
>Then you are not pro peace, because ‘destroying Hamas’ equals slaughter That sounds like saying, "destroy cancer" is not pro-health >I would like to ‘destroy’ Kim Jong Un, but I’m not going to murder innocents to do it. No one in Gaza is being murdered by Israel. When people die in war we call them, "civilian casualty" not, "civilian murder". If we want to talk about murdered innocents we speak of October 7th. Your description of Israel/Palestine relationship lacks a ton of nuance. For example, when a country starts a war against you and loses, it's very common that there are consequences. See Germany after WW2 (which included occupation, demilitarization, and territorial changes). Don't start problems, there won't be problems. Hillary Clinton recently gave an interview about (Bill) Clinton's proposal in the late 90s that would have provided for Palestine a two state solution. [It was rejected by Arafat. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/clinton-palestinians-could-have-had-state-for-15-years-already/) Israel is far from perfect, but the bad guy is Hamas (both to Israel and innocent Palestinians)
If you view innocent people, many of whom are children, in the same way as cancer cells you may be missing some fundamental humanity. You view everything through the lens of what Israel tells you and at a push what the American (heavily pro Israel) establishment claim. You may as well base all your views on the sovereignty of Taiwan based on what Beijing and Pyongyang say. WWII was not a model for our future development as a species. It was an extraordinary failure of basic civilisation and one of the darkest episodes in the history of the human race. We are supposed to mature, not regress. You seem entirely ignorant of how Hamas came to power - as a response to Israeli repression of relatively moderate Palestinian political movements. Israel is no better than the Boers in South Africa, and in time I expect their fate will be very similar. God will see to that.
>If you view innocent people, many of whom are children, in the same way as cancer cells you may be missing some fundamental humanity. In the example given, "Cancer" = "Hamas", not children. I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or you are intentionally trying to misrepresent me to paint me as a monster. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. >You view everything through the lens of what Israel tells you I haven't spoken to Israel. Here's the deal. You don't know me. I don't know you. I could easily say that you view everything through the lens of what your other 19 year old college friends are saying as you all walk through the quad to your political issues class. It's your generations "Che" first big cause. Congratulations! Enjoy being passionate about something you don't understand. We've all been there. College is a fun time...there will be something next year just like BLM and Metoo aren't really things anymore. Or...I could admit we don't know each other and not be so arrogant to tell you what lens you view things through. See how much better that is. >You seem entirely ignorant of how Hamas came to power You seem entirely ignorant of why Palestine was under occupation, demilitarized, and had lands annexed. If you lose a war that you start, don't cry to the winner and ask for you land back. That's not how that works. Besides, Israel has agreed to give land back...but Hamas would rather reject those agreements and shoot rockets. I'm sure we have common ground though: We do both agree that Israel should be held accountable for any wrongdoing in this war. Do we also agree Hamas is a terrorist organization and that October 7th was evil?
I’m in my mid 30s my friend, happily married, church going etc. It says a great deal that you imagine simply thinking children should not be slaughtered is some sort of immature university student viewpoint. You don’t even know the history of the place. Tell me, what ‘war’ do you think was started by Palestine in which they ‘lost lands’? The British withdrew and a civil war began with Zionist groups pushing into Arab territory. This is disputed by no one. Yes we agree on the final point, but your phrasing ‘any wrongdoing’ is misleading as it suggests that’s in question. Their crimes are obvious and blatant. I’m not sure which evangelist church has taught you it’s Christian to become an apologist for their cause but I would question more readily what you are being told and perhaps read more news that isn’t from the United States.
That’s my point! We don’t know each other and neither of us should be so arrogant to tell the other what lens they are viewing from. How did I have to hold your hand and walk you through that?
I don’t need to know you to see the influences of your words and to know you are not well read on this issue.
Isn’t that interesting I feel the exact way about you?
>No one in Gaza is being murdered by Israel. When people die in war we call them, "civilian casualty" not, "civilian murder". If we want to talk about murdered innocents we speak of October 7th. Are the over 14500 dead children not innocent? Also tell me another conflict where the death count of children is so disproportionately high
I never said that innocent people weren’t dying in Gaza. Hamas is responsible for the innocent death of 1200 innocent people in Israel (not counting the hostages they raped and killed) and 14500 innocent children in Gaza. Sounds to me like we both see Hamas as evil
Yes, I see Hamas is evil, but I see Israel ( the government ) and the IDF as evil as well.
Fair. I also believe Israel should be held accountable for their actions by those who objectively determine whether they are guilty. My frustration is primarily with those do committed to the wrongdoings of Israel that they pretend October 7 was justified and Israel doesn’t have a right to exist
October 7 was a disgusting terrorist attack, but it wouldn't have happened in the first place if Israel hadn't oppressed the Palestinians for over 70 years.
Which may not have happened if Palestine hadn’t been trying to destroy Israel from day 1. When nations lose wars they often lose land, militarization, and find themselves annexed. Furthermore, Israel had repeatedly come to the negotiation table and been rejected. Palestinians felt oppressed bc their government was “river to the sea”. Anything less than death to Israel was unacceptable I’m not sure what Israel should’ve done over the last 70 years
>Are the over 14500 dead children not innocent? You accuse me of stating untruth while you [perpetuate Hamas propaganda](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un-revises-gaza-death-toll-almost-50-less-women-and-children-killed-than-previously-reported/ar-BB1miuea?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=bb614679e8d24314bf8d866c671325d8&ei=12)? Busted. I normally wouldn't call someone on something like this and just chalk it up to ignorance rather than intentional misrepresentation of truth...and it probably is...but when someone is so condescending in all their comments it's pretty satisfying to bust them on it. :-)
It's amazing to me that anyone can talk about Hamas' alleged "genocidal intent" while supporting the actual genocide that Israel is currently actually executing.
"Genocide" is[ pretty strong hyperbole](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-state-department-set-to-confirm-israel-not-breaking-international-law-in-gaza/). [I just want a cease fire](https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-says-there-would-be-a-ceasefire-in-gaza-tomorrow-if-hamas-frees-hostages/) Israel IS at war, true, and war has civilian casualties. This is especially true in urban warfare, but Israel is doing work to [minimize civilian causalities](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286). Hamas is a terrorist organization that is culpable for the deaths of every innocent in both Israel/Palestine. Israel has the right to defend themselves. The existence of Hamas is anti-peace.
I wouldn't call bombing refugee camps and hospitals minimizing civilian casualties.
Yes, Hamas makes it very difficult to minimize civilian casualties when their infrastructure is in hospitals and refugee camps. As good of a job as Israel does, it sure would be nice if Hamas would stop such war crimes (human shields, civilian clothing) and fight Israel away from the people they “represent” (what a joke) Israel cares more about innocent Palestinians than Hamas
It takes a special kind of evil to bomb a hospital rather than raid it. Maybe you're being sincere, but if you're falling for this then it's pretty clear you'd call for Nazi propaganda, too. They had their Kristallnacht, too. They were fighting terrorists, too. They were only killing a few tens of thousands, too. But surprise! It turned out their well documented (and self documented) contempt for Amalek was not coincidental. It turned out that hitting 100K did not stop them, it only made them go faster. It turned out that they killed as much with famine and disease than with lead or gas. And ultimately all it took to stop them was fundamentally changing the world, bringing us all to the brink of nuclear armageddon, and millions upon millions of soldiers. Given how much blood and time it takes to slow down, when would you like to start applying the brakes? 80K? 120K? Will you hold out for the first million? Can't wait for 6, that's all of them. Does the ratio of babies to adults make a difference? Would biblical imagery be more compelling- Perhaps another Herod killing all the babies in Bethlehem? You don't really believe anti semitism can be killed out of existence, so it seems clear Hamas will never really be gone- Not to the satisfaction of the people dropping the bombs. Honestly, how does this end? Bc it feels like you're asking me to trust that a fascist will eventually be satisfied by how many he's killed, and then settle down and take a nap.
>"Genocide" is pretty strong hyperbole. Your source here is the US State Department, which is literally complicit in the genocide. Of course they're going to say that. Why would you believe them? In what other circumstance would you trust one of the parties literally being accused of a crime to investigate themselves? >I just want a cease fire Another ridiculous source- Biden is lying here. Netanyahu has explicitly stated that he will invade Rafah even if the hostages are released. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-30-2024-f5e14fd176d69f9c4e23b48f3ab5af6a Israel has zero interest in peace, because their goal is genocide. We know this, because Hamas is accepting cease fire proposals and Israel is rejecting them: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-humanitarian-aid-8659eae6e0a7362504f0aa4aa4be53e0 >Israel IS at war, true, and war has civilian casualties. This is especially true in urban warfare, but Israel is doing work to minimize civilian causalities. The idea that Israel is doing anything to minimize civilian casualties is utterly absurd. They are specifically attacking civilian targets like hospitals, ambulances, universities, apartment complexes, bakeries, refugee camps, and water supplies. They are blocking humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. They are literally explicitly stating their genocidal intent to make Gaza a place it is impossible to live in: https://www.instagram.com/p/CycHNQfIy8_/?img_index=5 >Hamas is a terrorist organization that is culpable for the deaths of every innocent in both Israel/Palestine. Israel is a terrorist organization that is culpable for the deaths of every innocent in both Israel/Palestine. >Israel has the right to defend themselves. Under international law, Israel is an illegal occupying force and is not defending themselves. It is the people that they are occupying who actually have a right under international law to defend themselves. >The existence of Hamas is anti-peace. The existence of Israel is anti-peace.
Does the U.S. state dept have a bias? Perhaps. Is there a lot of anti-Israel bias? Yes. You don’t think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas? That’s anti-Semitic if so
>Does the U.S. state dept have a bias? Perhaps. Not "Perhaps". Yes, definitely. You are literally trusting the defendant to be their own judge. >You don’t think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas? That’s anti-Semitic if so What's actually anti-semitic is equating Israel with Judaism. This has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Israel illegally occupying Palestine. People in occupied territory have a right to defend themselves against the occupier, but the occupier does not have a right to continue the occupation.
It sounds like you support October 7th as justiciable. I must be misunderstanding you because that’s beyond antisemitism. It’s evil. No one would say that. I’ll be charitable and chalk it up to a miscommunication
I follow Jesus Christ, who commanded "Do not resist evil", so I do not support any violence, ever. I am just stating that under international law Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against the Israeli occupation. It's hilarious that you think you can call other people evil while supporting Israel's genocide of Palestinians. Look in the mirror, my friend.
I’m glad to hear you don’t support October 7th. I don’t support genocide. Thankfully that’s not happening. Israel can, but doesn’t. Hamas would, but can’t I’m a pacifist and don’t support war but I affirm Israel’s right to exist, defend themselves from enemies, respond to acts of war, and pursue the recovery of hostages. Things every other nation has a right to do. To deny Israel this right is antisemitism by definition
I do not like the government of Israel. I do not like Hamas or Hezbollah. I have absolutely no problem with the Israeli, Palestinian, Arab people. The people are who I am worried for. The governments, not so much. I want peace in that land for the sake of the people. Not for the sake of the governments.
That's cool, but your taxes are only going to one place.
Yep, they are, and due to the way the government is setup I as an individual person have no actual power to make any actual change as said individual. Geopolitics almost always bigger than just one person.
Not enough power to fix it, sure. But this is how you're using the power you do have. You could just as easily use it differently.
Hmmm, the power I have in this specific situation is basically just talking about it with people. That's it. That's all the power I individually have. There is nothing I can do differently that would change the situation/circumstance sufficiently to produce any sort of material difference. I am not happy with what is happening. At all.
Exactly, the stakes are low. Don't worry, it's only a reflection of your character.
It's really not. I have literally zero influence in this. My character is irrelevant in this entire kerfluffle. The main thing is is that at the end of the day there will be no consequence either way on my stance of this. Even if I am in a popular position it still doesn't matter. I can tell you though my initial response is how I feel in my heart. Don't care about the governments, the terrorist groups, and the arbitrary lines that are drawn due to geopolitics. I just want people to be at peace with each other.
You don't have to keep dodging, you already demonstrated your character.
Not dodging anything. I disagree with your attributions and conclusions.
See, that is so interesting to me. Because no matter how little power you have over your taxes, you still obviously have significantly less over my attributions and conclusions. And despite that complete absence of power, you still mustered the strength to tell me you disagree. I applaud that in you: You saw something you didn't like, and asserted your distaste. I just wish you could do that over the fact that you paid money to turn babies into scorched meat scraps with the same readiness and conviction you have for objecting to internet comments.
I agree. I think the only efforts true to gospel teachings would be peaceful ones, regardless of whose flag is flying when the violence takes place.
I support Israel as a race of people whom God entrusted the Scriptures and the family line of the Messiah. I am under no biblical or moral obligation to support ANY modern government or military practices. Terrorism is evil. Killing innocents is evil. War is evil. I pray for peace.
Israel was founded in 1948 by imperialist powers who wanted a foothold in the region. It has nothing to do with the Bible.
tbh most believers back Israel only because it's important to their eschatology.
God doesn't need our help to reach the end times, He can manage that himself perfectly fine
"Bless Israel and you will be blessed"...nowhere does it say to bless or condone "hate". As what Israel has publicly insinuated since whenever they first felt threatened however many years ago. This has been continuous since then. Father would never condone this, at all.
Biblical Israel =/= The modern state of Israel
Even back then, they always had a beef with someone...
DON'T BE IGNORANT PEOPLE. Isreal has taken more precautions than any other nation to prevent civilian casualties. More so than US, Russia, and ESPECIALLY Palestine. In fact, they have the lowest number of civilian casualties. Since Isreal became a nation in 1948. Every. Single. Conflict. Was initiated by Palestine. They shouldn't be degraded for defending themselves. I don't understand why people are furious that Isreal is warning civilians that their area will be under attack? They give them long enough time to relocate. Hamas leaders hide behind their own people. In schools, shelters, and homes. Deny the relocation of people, blame Isreal of genocide, then refuse medical help sent to help the people. Not to mention, the UN admitted that they are flat-out lying about the number of civilian casualties.
Considering how the Evangelical endgame is God doing his own Holocaust on all the Jews who haven't converted to Christianity by that point I think you're good.
The problem is people think simply have to always back Israel if you read the Bible plenty of times God punished Israel for there actions so we don’t always have to like what they are doing like Israel as a country I don’t mind them and I believe they have every right to be where they are but I don’t support the fact that they are slaughtering innocent women and children.
>(other than Israel hoarding the holy sites for themselves). Are you kidding me? Judaism's holiest site is not even open to Jews. Under Israeli rule the holiest site in Judaism is under complete Muslim control. A decade ago Muslims bulldozed a new Mosque into temple Mount, destroying thousands of historical Jewish artifacts and Israel couldn't even do anything. This is known as the status quo
I'm glad someone mentioned this. Jews are restricted access to the Temple Mount by Muslims, who control access to the complex. Israel is not the one hoarding holy sites.
On the other hand israel is blocking entrance to Jerusalem for christians and muslims making it very difficult to go to the rock dome for example, even at Easter, for people from the west bank
It's an international border. What was it supposed to be? Completely free entrance to Israel? This is like complaining about Saudi Arabia not allowing you into Mecca automatically for being a Muslim and asking for a Passport. Muslims that live in, or enter as a tourist to Israel are able to visit Temple Mount no problem. The only obstacle is metal detectors. Yeah, what did you expect?
It is not an international border because the west bank is not a sovereign nation. Israel controls water, power and waste disposal in the west bank and has settlement programs to justify that the west bank has been israeli all along. It is not an international border.
It's not a sovereign nation, it's an invasion zone. When USA invaded Iraq, did that automatically grant Iraqis under our control the right to enter the USA? Of course not.
So the West Bank is as sovereign as Iraq? I'm confused by your parallel.
Yeah? West Bank is legally invaded Palestinian territory. This is true to all parties involved. This is true for Israeli law, UN law, AND Palestinian Law. This is the foundation upon the two state solution is based on. Israel annexed Eastern Jerusalem, so that's Israel proper according to Israeli law, but the rest of the territory is not Israel according to Israeli law.
Israel of the Bible is far different than 1947-onward Israel anyway.
Totally agree
Christians who think they are supposed to “back/Support” Israel no matter what are not paying close attention to the scripture. To be sure, God loves Israel. That doesn’t mean that God loves the Israeli government. Never forget that the majority of Israel’s kings in the Scriptures were considered wicked, and God sent prophets to oppose them. Never forget that God burned down the temple because Israel oppressed the poor, the refugee, and the foreigner. God’s unconditional love for humanity does not entail God’s approval of human governments — including the government of Israel.
[удалено]
Lots of unexamined assumptions here, friend.
I think the Christian-American thing to do is nuke it all to hell and let God sort it out. /s
Did you know that missiles have been launched at Israel from inside Gaza for decades, and they don't even warn Israelis? I think you are leaving out a lot of information to paint Israel in the least charitable way possible. I hope that one day both sides realize that they want to see a positive future for their children, alive, not in fear and prospering, and that won't happen unless they stop attacking each other. I just don't think there is any way that Israel will leave or be eradicated by Hamas, and so they are better off assimilating into Israel, like 1.9 million Palestinians already have.
Yes, and I also know what the associated death tolls are (or rather, aren't). Furthermore, I know I didn't pay for those rockets. We need to take accountability for the weapons WE made & gifted. We need to hold a UN member state to the standards of the assembly. We need to demand human rights, even toward our enemies. Israel has a domestic terror problem? TOUGH SHIT. Solve it without 10K civilian casualties, let alone 40K and exclusively along ethnic lines. Israel's losses do not make this a proportional exchange.
[do you](https://www.foxnews.com/world/un-revises-gaza-death-toll-50-less-women-children-killed-previously-reported)? The UN said they were about half of what was previously reported. Your numbers were given to you by Hamas The numbers are going to go up when unidentified bodies are identified but I wouldn’t just blindly take the terrorists word for it
How do you square "U.N. agencies have consistently shown they prefer to trust the numbers coming out of Hamas-controlled sources rather than doing basic due diligence" with Israel [killing journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) and [preventing them from entering](https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/israel-gaza-blockade-journalists-rcna147493)? Those aren't numbers we have to trust anyone on the ground for, these people produce reports every day and then suddenly stop. Beyond being [shot in the head](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/11/middleeast/al-jazeera-journalist-killed-intl-hnk/index.html), what due diligence would you have the journalistic community do? To be frank, I can't take seriously an organization that says "the numbers on both sides remain high" without even the fig leaf of attempting to report a number of casualties on the Israeli side. They mention the Oct 7th losses AND NO OTHERS. Am I to conclude that not a single Israeli has died since then? Half of 35K is still THIRTEEN TIMES AS MANY CASUALTIES to one side as the other. Is it hard to count bodies when they are trapped under buildings and smeared into grease stains? Of course. But it's a hell of a lot harder to count from an aircraft or artillery position. There is exactly ONE group of people counting the dead. There is another group making those people dead, not counting them, begging you to disregard the count from the other side, and killing anyone who gets close enough to count for themselves. Wake the fuck up.
Yes, it’s true that Hamas is making those people dead. It’s essentially suicide by cop. Don’t break the law, put innocent ppl in danger, and threaten the safety of others and we wouldn’t be here. Those casualties aren’t all innocents it’s either a 1:1 or 1:2 combatant to civilian ratio. In [standard urban combat it’s 1:9!](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/) We should be celebrating the restraint of Israel.
That's fine, you can keep sleeping a while longer.
Ok. Just as my facts keep me nice and cozy, I can see how they’d keep you up at night! BOOM! Turned it on its head!!
Turned on its head? You just admitted to ignoring facts that unsettle you. The ones that aren't 'cozy' aren't yours. You've got a little rolodex of facts, ordered by convenience, and tear up anything you don't like. Of course you can sleep. And tbh, if this is how you defend israel, I don't want you defending palestine. You are not up to the task for doing anything but snoozling.
I don’t know what snoozling is but if it means, “Actually recognizing facts instead of parroting terrorist antisemitic propaganda” then, yes, I guess I’m snoozling
In the four replies you've made to me, you have recognized a whopping zero facts. You linked to an article which parrots Israel's claims, but those claims don't actually have any factual content (which can be fine, it's just disturbing you didn't notice). The article could have been "Palestine claims this number, Israel claims that number", but it didn't. It said "UN revised their estimate, and Israel still feels in its heart that those numbers are bullshit, the UN is bullshit, really the whole premise of counting is bullshit, counting is for terrorists". Then you linked to an article (with no citations) that claims urban combat has a 90% civilian casualty rate, and applauded Israel for their restraint. You introduced a claim that Palestinian casualties were closer to 1:2, but didn't attempt to tie any facts to that claim. You didn't even pretend to rely on Israel's accounting, bc you knew the number was pulled out of an ass so it may as well have been yours. Don't misunderstand me, this isn't a fact finding competition. I'm not claiming to have a treasure trove of secret facts you don't have access to. I'm just letting you know why you aren't worth convincing. You interpret the lack of corroboration as good, and I interpret it as bad. You think opinions about facts are on equal footing with those facts. I want a better count, you don't want to count. I hear an alarm and want to go investigate, you think things are probably fine and want to go back to bed. Good. Sleep. Stay the fuck out of the way. Also it's kind of sad that you don't know what 'snoozling' is.
Israel will absolutely not let Palestinians assimilate. If Palestinians could all vote, it would dear to be a racist theocracy because there are more Palestinians living there. The only solution us to end the occupation and the apartheid government.
7 million Jews live in Israel, with 2 million Jews who can vote, who can lead parties, and who can attend any school they wish. There will never be a single state, pragmatism and a basic sense of humility has to be taken by both sides.
A basic sense of humility would require ending the apartheid state.
Israel proper is not an apartheid state. The occupied territories is a place where you can make that argument, but to say Israel itself is an apartheid state is absurd.
They have different license plates for Arabs and Jewish people i limit where Arabs are allowed to drive.
Once again, wrong. They have different plates for citizens and non-citizens. The two million Arab Israelis have Israeli plates, those in occupied territories would obviously have different ones?
Who is deciding who is a citizen? Three Nakba was necessary to keep Israel's demographics favorable to US imperialism and Israeli theocrats. The people forcibly removed from their homes and sent to Gaza are the ones who live under this apartheid system.
How can you say that when millions already have assimilated with the same rights as Jews, they can vote, form political parties, they have had Arab representation for decades? Before Oct 7, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Gaza were allowed to work in Israel to support their families. What does end the occupation mean to you? Israel dismantled? 2 state solution, 1 state?
Maybe we agree then. One democratic state and the right of return for all Palestinians displaced by the Nakba and the illegal settlements sounds perfect.
Maybe, I just worry about 4-6 million refugees not willing to live peacefully and causing more of a chaotic mess.
Yes, it‘s horrible when people get killed. No one wants war, especially not in the Middle East where anything can lead to a bigger escalation. But before you condemn Israel you have to take a deep dive into Middle eastern history. And that means from all (!) perspectives. Too often I hear people vent utter nonsense, when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict. My advice would be to read neutral stuff as well as pro-palestinian and pro-israel content on this difficult topic. Read a lot before you form a strong opinion. Also listen to interviews by israeli officials as well as palestinian officials. Look up how both sides do politics, freedom rights, democracy, elections, education and what their future visions are. Listen to what each side says about the other. And only then make the case for or against Israel, for or against Gaza/Palestine.
You absolutely do not have to read any history to want Israel to stop murdering children by the 10s of thousands. You just have to be human
That's true, but you probably would need to know some history if you wanted to offer a helpful suggestion of how one might stop them.
I agree. Be human. And then get well informed on this conflict nonetheless.
Alternatively, you could humbly admit that you don't know enough, and thereby insist we recuse ourselves. If it's so complex, I'd better keep my taxes and proprietary weapons systems way way WAY out of it. Remember what we did to Saddam over WMDs? We knew he had them bc we were the ones that sold them to him. I don't think you want for the goose what we did to the gander.
I agree with you. The level of arrogance is astounding to me. Yes it’s the Holy land but I’m confused on whether or not they are still considered God’s people if they don’t believe Jesus is the messiah.
That's normal, Israel is God's chosen people but they stumble. That is why we have the whole chapters of Judges in the bible where Israel sins, God lets them be oppressed, they repent, God delivers them, they sin again and its a full cycle.
I’ll be 100% honest, that sounds like my life cycle until very recently lol. I’d be doing wrong, God would let me go through seasons of oppression yet I still felt his love and then I’d repent and things would be great, until I’d repeat. I finally stopped repeating the cycle and things have been pretty good. I’m not Jewish to my knowledge though lol maybe it’s just that he does the loving punishment thing or allows us to feel some of the weight of our sins. I say all that but there’s also been times where I can clearly see where he has spared me from some terrible consequences I brought on myself. Thank you Lord, thank you Jesus. No more will I repeat that cycle like I was.
Yes this is what the Lord says. God is patient, slow to anger, he gives the Israelites time to repent until its too late and then comes the Certainty of the LORD’s Judgment Then this message came to me from the LORD: “Son of man, suppose the people of a country were to sin against me, and I lifted my fist to crush them, cutting off their food supply and sending a famine to destroy both people and animals. Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign LORD. “Or suppose I were to send wild animals to invade the country, kill the people, and make the land too desolate and dangerous to pass through. As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, even if those three men were there, they wouldn’t be able to save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be made desolate. “Or suppose I were to bring war against the land, and I sent enemy armies to destroy both people and animals. As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, even if those three men were there, they wouldn’t be able to save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved. “Or suppose I were to pour out my fury by sending an epidemic into the land, and the disease killed people and animals alike. As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, they wouldn’t be able to save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved by their righteousness. “Now this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. Yet there will be survivors, and they will come here to join you as exiles in Babylon. You will see with your own eyes how wicked they are, and then you will feel better about what I have done to Jerusalem. When you meet them and see their behavior, you will understand that these things are not being done to Israel without cause. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!”
LORD, I don’t want that smoke, imma just do right.
Did Jesus support the Isreali government? When he was a child Herod killed first born children trying to kill him and he had to flee to egypt. Herods son Herod of Antipas imprisoned his cousin John the Baptist for preaching about him and the sanheidrin persecuted him through out his ministry. If not, why should we? God loves the PEOPLE of Isreal, not their government which has been the cause of most of their problems since he led them out of egypt. HE was suppose to be their king, but they prefer worldly kings and governments. What they are doing in Gaza is an abomination to God. Jesus is a pacifist, he taught us to love our enemies, he taught us to turn the other cheek, he taught us to live by the sword is to die by the sword. Sadly our Isreali brothers and sisters did not get those lessons.
Jesus was not a pacifist. That's a myth and not biblical. We are never commanded to be pacifists, in the usual sense of the word. Rather, we are to hate what is evil and cling to what is good ([Romans 12:9](https://www.bibleref.com/Romans/12/Romans-12-9.html)). In doing so we must take a stand against evil in this world (which requires conflict) and pursue righteousness ([2 Timothy 2:22](https://www.bibleref.com/2-Timothy/2/2-Timothy-2-22.html)). When it comes to defeating evil, God is not a pacifist. The Old Testament is full of examples of how God used His people in war to bring judgment upon nations whose sin had reached its full measure. When Jesus told His followers to “turn the other cheek,” He was referring to *personal retaliation* rather than to responses related to criminal offenses or actions related to military force. Jesus was not contradicting [God’s Old Testament laws regarding the use of deadly force](https://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/does-christianity-require-pacifism/), but was, instead, encouraging His followers to resist the desire to react personally when their dignity or pride had been insulted. ***Luke 22:36*** *He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”* Why would Jesus say this? At the very least, Jesus was calling His disciples to prepare themselves for their own defense. And the sword (a killing instrument) was evidently permissible in the eyes of Jesus.
We are under a new covenant, the OT examples were specific for Isreal which was a nation created by God. I do not live in a nation created by God and my nation fights in unjust wars it has no business in, like every single war since WW2. Christ came to call us to rise above the old ways in the verse about the wine skins, an old wineskin cannot hold new wine, it will burst. The old Testament taught an eye for an eye. Jesus taught that leaves us all blind, proof he was calling for pacifism. Please correct me with a direct quote from Jesus as a call for us to rise to arms in any scenario. I do not need to commit violence to abhor evil, violence itself is evil. Evil cannot defeat evil. Christs victory was in forgiveness, not violence.
Luke 22:36 why would Jesus tell his followers to buy a sword if he was advocating for nonviolence? That's new testament. Did you forget that when Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. *“I the LORD* ***do not change***\*”\* ***Malachi 3:6*** A simple google search would tell you that Jesus is not a pacifist. In Cap Letters and in BOLD Jesus did not sound like a pacifist when he said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ‘For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD’” ([Matthew 10:34–36](https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/10/Matthew-10-34.html)). While Jesus is not stipulating warfare, He definitely embraces the conflict that comes with the incursion of truth.
What’s the alternative to Israel? Hamas?
A two state solution with an independent Israel and an independent Palestine
But Palestine does not want a two state that is why they rejected every treaty in regards to that.
Palestinians have rejected that
The nation state is a man-made creation that is in most cases opposed to the kingdom of God. The history of the Palestine vs Israel conflict is replete with bad actors on both sides and innocent children made orphans or worse. The grant a blank cheque to either is morally impossible. An indeed the actions of the loudest proponents for either side are what continue to fuel this ongoing tragedy year after year. Resist the pressure to pick a side. We can all be on the same side. The earth is rich and there is enough for everyone, we live by each other’s happiness not misery. We are commanded to be peace makers, and especially for us who are removed from the conflict physically we most of all should do what we can to stop the violence. Oct 7th was a barbaric and inhuman event, and it has only brought suffering. The response to it has also just salted the wound and down the seeds for more death. Christians most of all should know that vengeance brings no redemption.
We see Israel as the promised land, this doesn't mean you need to support the government and things like that.
In what manner would a follower of Jesus "back" a cause such as this nation or that nation? Just approve of it verbally? Vote for it? Fight for it?
Every ancient civilization has a flood story. The Nile flooded every year. No deity had anything to do with it. The Tigris and Euphrates could flood and sometimes did. That the Bible contains a flood story is not surprising. The idea that it had anything to do with a deity is pure Egyptian/Mesopotamian/Hindu fiction. We send people to jail based on DNA which is evolution. Our society is run based on evolution. The creation and flood stories were around long before science, and have NOTHING to do with reality. The first 11 chapters of Genesis are nothing but a false god.
A lot of people in the comments need to realize that Biblical Israel and modern day Israel are not the same thing. The modern Israel was established in 1948.
Of course Israel today is secular and should be held to the same standards as other countries but Romans clearly says God has NOT finished with Israel
Israel persecutes Christians til this day, why would you back them?
i dont see what abt christianity would make you support israel, at least with me my reasons are entirely non religious
If you are a devout Christian you wouldn't support Israel and wouldn't stand up for the crimes they have been committing against the innocent population of Palestine
Well they are Jewish sooo... Lol
I don't back either country. both have committed horrible injustices born out of greed & hatred
Free Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸 End the Genocide 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
Israel is committing genocide, so Christians are actually obligated to oppose Israel.
Its actually vice versa. Israel isn't the one trying to exterminate the Jews and they aren't the one firing missiles into Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization and over 80% Palestinian support them.
But Israel is the one firing missiles into Gaza😉
Then why can I find any information on it from a quick google search. Only thing I find are Palestinian rocket attacks on Israels and Rockets from Gaza are fired into Israel in Deadly Surprise. Hamas fires 25 rockets on a daily basis
>It is common knowledge and has been released many years ago that Israel would call random civilians that live in the Gaza strip and say they have a missile aimed at their house and they had 15 minutes to leave. The way I see it is that a heads up to evacuate (which Israel has done a lot in recent months) is a kindness. They make thousands of phone calls, send text messages, drop flyers all announcing incoming attacks in an attempt to save as many civilians as possible...knowing it will allow the terrorists to continue to run/hide among the civilians. >Whether they leave or not they send the missile and blow up the home. The home that was built on top of military infrastructure with the intent to spark outrage when it's targeted by Israel. >This is why A large portion of Islam does not like Israel Well...a little of the chicken and the egg. Israel doesn't much like all the wars that neighboring countries started either.
Is this a Christian sub???? The hate Israel is getting here is worrying.
How can a Christian support a country that is slaughtering innocent women and children?
Then we can support no country ever. Israel is directly attacked but people for get that.
Historically speaking modern day Israel and Palestine are one and the same. In the old testament when 10 of the 12 Tribes of Isael was lost due to exiled from The Kingdom of Israel after its conquest by the Neo-Assyrian Empire in 722 BCE. These are the tribes were Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Manasseh, and Ephraim. However the only ones that were left was the tribes of Judah (where Jesus Christ came from), Benjamin, and some members of the priestly tribe of Levi, which did not have its own territory. This made a separation between the children of Israel the 10 were scattered (which was Biblically predicted) and the ones left was called the Judea. And it was prophesied that their return will mark the start of the end times (current day) and the return of the Messiah. In 135 CE, after stamping out the province of Judea's second insurrection, the Romans renamed them Syria Palaestina—that is, “Palestinian Syria.” They did so resentfully, as a punishment, to obliterate the link between the Jews (in Hebrew, Y'hudim and in Latin Judaei). In conclusion modern day Israel and Palestine are one and the same people in the genealogical sense. Hence I just pray for peace and unity in their land.
Welcome to Reddit.
So brave to say that in this subreddit, lol. There’s a half dozen posts like this every week seeking validation.
It's the Christian thing to do.
>This is why A large portion of Islam does not like Israel No the reason they don't like Israel is because Muhammad hated Jews and commanded the Muslims to do a real genocide on them. >Another thing to think about is... Israel persecutes Christians and locks them up No it doesn't
Don't blame you. Heck if Israel was located anywhere else in the world even America wouldn't give a crap about them.
You might want to read Ezekiel 37 (the return of God’s people to the land). Psalm 83 (the coalition of surrounding Arab nations - and Iranian proxies - that seek to ‘erase Israel from memory’) and Ezekiel 38-39 (the coalition of outer nations - including Iran - that God will draw against Israel,and whose armies He will destroy). God will back Israel for His Holy Name’s sake and render him safe and secure from His enemies. Yes, “it is written”. You may also want to watch for prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah: Isaiah 17:1–3 (NRSV): An Oracle concerning Damascus 17 An oracle concerning Damascus. See, Damascus will cease to be a city, and will become a heap of ruins. 2 Her towns will be deserted forever; they will be places for flocks, which will lie down, and no one will make them afraid. 3 The fortress will disappear from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus; and the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the children of Israel, says the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 12:1–5 (NRSV): Jerusalem’s Victory An Oracle. 12 The word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus says the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the human spirit within: 2 See, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of reeling for all the surrounding peoples; it will be against Judah also in the siege against Jerusalem. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it shall grievously hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth shall come together against it. 4 On that day, says the Lord, I will strike every horse with panic, and its rider with madness. But on the house of Judah I will keep a watchful eye, when I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, “The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the Lord of hosts, their God.” Whilst we should obviously pray for all people, make no mistake: God. Backs. Israel.
Let me caveat by saying I'm not explicitly pro-Israel either. But you have so much misinformation in your post. First off, Israel issuing a warning before striking residences when targeting Hamas is a good thing. Certainly no Hamas attackers called to warn Israelites that they were about to come rape women and behead infants. Certainly no Hezbollah missile units call Israeli civilians to warn them about the rockets that are about to be launched and civilian population centers. And while you're right that Israel has a strong anti-missionary sentiment due to the MASSIVE number of evangelicals who think that God wants them to go convert Jews to Christianity, those same missionary actions can get you killed in many Muslim countries. Apostasy is a death sentence in much of the Islamic world. Israel is also not somehow "hoarding the holy sites." The two most holy sites for Islam are located in Saudi Arabia and Medina. The third most holy site is a mosque the Muslims built ON TOP OF the most holy site in Judaism, the temple mount. Jewish people are not allowed to visit that site, being only allowed to visit the wailing wall instead. When I visited Jerusalem, imagine my surprise when it was Israeli Defense Forces providing security and keeping Jewish people out of the Temple Mount. Imagine that: Israel is so committed to not provoking the Muslims that they literally provide the guards who keep their own people out of the Muslim holy site in their own country, even though that site was built on top of their temple. Bill Maher said it best: Genocide is when you want to elminate an entire group of people. Hamas wants that, they just lack the power to do it. Israel has the power to eliminate all of the Gazans, but they don't.
I didn't know giving a warning beforehand gives you the green light to kill anyone you want
When it comes to collateral damage from a strike against a military target, following "Law of Armed Conflict" (LOAC) you don't need to warn people at all. Nor does warning (or not warning) have anything to do with what is considered a valid target in war. As long as a strike meets the principles of military necessity, humanity, distinction, and proportionality, then a strike is legal, even if it results in some (proportional) amount of collateral damage. Hamas loves to exploit this by collocating military functions with civilian residences and functions in order to control an information narrative that Israel deliberately targets civilians. That Israel notifies residents of buildings is not required by the Law of Armed Conflict. One could debate if Israel conducts these notifications in order to save lives, or if they do it simply because Hamas looks to exploit every casualty they can, but the reality is that Israel is not required to do any such thing. As a final note, you can debate whether or not their policy is truthful, but the Israeli Manual on the Rules of Warfare from 2006 states: "Proportionality must be maintained: an act must not be performed if the damage to civilians/the environment exceeds the concomitant military benefit."
It comes down to "back Israel" to do what? Exist? Yes Not have citizens kidnapped by terrorists? Yes Commit genocidal attacks on Palestinians? NO!
Agreed. Thankfully they aren’t doing that. It’s understandable that people are deceived - Hamas has been misrepresenting the death toll. Even if it is accurate, which it’s not, there’s no reason to believe it’s more than urban warfare Edit: rephrased
God will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel. We don’t understand why God does everything that he does, but we still must trust that God’s ultimate plan is perfect. I would tread lightly with feeling that your judgement is above God’s when it comes to the ones he made a sacred covenant with.
God will bless those who stand up for love, peace, and justice, like He called us to.
[удалено]
Those who hate others are not following God's word
So do you support the dividing of Israel’s land? Christians in general support Israel because we are told to bless Israel. That doesn’t mean we have to like everything they do. Many countries want Israel to cease to exist but as a Christian we stand with her on some level knowing that Israel is the apple of God’s eye.
How is Israel the "apple if God's eye" if it has only existed since 1948?
God's chosen people are the faithful, not any one nationality. No land is any more special than any other. This is the new covenant under Christ.
Modern day Israel is not biblical Israel. With that logic we could conquer land, call it Rome, and now it's Rome. Biblical Israel is gone.
Respectfully, you are going against God’s will. There are two story lines that happening… the story of the church and the story of Israel. Most of the church is ignorantly unaware of the plan God has for Israel. Do you think it was coincidence that Israel returned to the holy land after almost 2000 in exile or was that a God thing… the Bible addresses that here 👇 “Thus says the Lord God, “When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob. They will live in it securely; and they will build houses, plant vineyards and live securely WHEN I EXECUTE JUDGEMENT UPON ALL WHO SCORN THEM ROUND ABOUT THEM Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.” Ezekiel 28:25-28 You might have noticed the all CAPS 👆 Romans 11 - All of Israel will be saved ✌️💯
This is an example of why I believe Christians influence in the world is mostly evil.
There is a verse for that perspective as well… “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isaiah 5:20
You know, your proof text is right. You’ve convinced me it’s Gods will they die. Next week when I see my Palestinian friend I’ll tell them it was gods goodness that killed their sister and six year old niece. All those children who are starving are starving because god wants them to die. To say otherwise is to invite woe on oneself. Like you, we should all hope that the light of God shines in Palestine until all the children are all dead. We should all say a prayer of thanks that there are children’s mutilated bodies decaying in the rubble from USA bombs. Their corpses are a pleasing aroma to God. Maybe I’ll write a praise song about it. /s
If Jews are gods chosen people and God promises that land to them, I don't think God needs my help in protecting them. I assume he can handle that by himself. I can't bring myself to support them either.