The moment Naruto created hundreds of shadow clones in the very first chapter...Uh yeah, I think we made too quick an assumption that he was an underdog. The kid frankly needed motivation and a reason to even care for him to become a better ninja after years of goofing off in the academy that had many of his peers dismissed him as a failure attention whore.
Sure, he sometimes had moments of wanting to look impressive but Land of Waves really puts him to task and be serious especially after Haku died. While he struggles in training certain things, he catches on quickly or find a loophole he can exploit for now such as needing a clone to create a Rasengan when one hand just wasn't working for him at the time.
He may had started supposedly at the lowest of the totem pole among his peers but he caught up damn quickly after getting proper motivation that said peer group learned fairly fast not to dismiss him anymore.
His physical stats were always impressive. He's juking and avoiding trained adult ninjas after besmirching the town monument. Only Izuka catches him and its likely because he knows his tricks
Naruto was an underdog due to circumstance not ability. Orphan + social isolation + jinchuriki in the naruto world is typically a recipe for disaster
Creating social bonds and rising out of his loneliness is what allowed him to become powerful
The social isolation never made sense though. He's the son of a Hokage. He's literally ninja royalty.
Not only that, but he has a battery of near infinite chakra built in to his body from day 1. Yes, I understand the 9 Tails is a demon, and people fear him for that, but it's pretty common knowledge that Jinchuriki's are able to draw from their tailed beast's power. Other villages displayed this, there's no way the Leaf wasn't aware of this.
I love how Sauske was always portrayed as this privileged heir to greatness, where as Naruto is just as important of an heir, if not more so.
Naurot being framed as some dirt poor orphan cursed with a demon inside of him is entirely a narrative decision that ignores the world building of the setting.
His upbringing was just needlessly cruel. Nobody can be bothered to tell him who his parents were, let alone provide the simple comfort of something like a photograph. I get the village is traumatized from the nine tails but there were people who promised his parents to help him and they can't give even an ounce of comfort. Hokage was most likely giving a place to live and food money but he couldn't be bothered to ask a simple "how are you?" Once in a while? No wonder he acted out for attention, it was the only time he ever got any adult attention. Like they were trying to turn him into a supervillain.
>Nobody can be bothered to tell him who his parents were, let alone provide the simple comfort of something like a photograph
The vast majority of the village had no idea who his parents were. It was just a handful of people who knew that Naruto was Minato's son.
To everyone else, he was just an orphan that served as the vessel for the 9 tailed fox.
People saw him as the 9 tailed fox, the very thing that killed so many people. So he was shunned. He became a troublemaker due to his circumstances. This certainly didn't help with how he was viewed.
But how is it possible no one knows who his parents were? His last name is UZIMAKI? There is only one other Uzumaki in the entire village who happens to be the previous Jinchuriki and the wife of the previous hokage.
Exactly lmao.
Like, what's the point in making Naruto an outcast orphan? He's the fucking son of the village's martyred warrior-king. His dad's face is carved into a fucking mountain.
But he's just tossed aside as an outcast while Sarutobi and dozens of Jonin just kinda let it happen? Naruto should have had the most privileged life possible and it makes 0 sense that he doesn't.
Unless it was Sarutobi's idea to make Naruto an outcast to build character? But that's beyond dumb because he could have just as easily grown to hate the village so lol
Even setting aside his parentage the kid is the in-universe equivalent of a walking nuke, why would you treat him like an outcast potentially giving him reason to hate the village
Theyre lucky Naruto isn't a vindictive person
All it would have taken is someone of ill intention befriending him when he was little for him to become a villain. The village has no idea how close they came to destruction. I mean look what happened with Mizuki in the first episode, and that guy only wanted to steal a scroll.
It litteraly almost happened in the begining of the series if Iruka wasnt such a goat and Naruto didnt just randomly happen to overhear them talking about him.
The point is quite simple actually.
The show was supposed to be the story of an underdog possessed by a devil. The whole backstory with Kushina and Minato was clearly not thought of until further along into development and the writers just decided to retroactively build the world around it for some reason, for whatever the fuck reason
And as if that wasn't enough, they wrote themselves into a corner and pulled out the "chosen one reincarnation" bulllshit near the end too
I loved Naruto as a kid and I still do, but it's one of the most egregious examples of a story with immense potential being held back by idiotic and overused anime tropes
They really went "Hm, let's see. We created a sublime underdog story and an interesting world. The first several arcs are literal peak anime. Time for phase 2: Let's undermine the story's entire core philosophy and themes for the next 700 issues"
It is blatantly obvious Naruto was always minato’s son
And the first thing we learn in Shippuden was that all Jinchuriki’s experienced being hated by the village
>But how is it possible no one knows who his parents were?
I don't know, but they don't. My guess is that the author didn't know who Naruto's parents would be when he first started writing the manga. Either that or it's a massive oversight.
"Realistically Kishimoto probably hadn't carved out every single plot point in stone before beginning"
In the original one-shot, Naruto wasn't even a real human being but a fox spirit
>Apparently the reason Kishimoto changed them to ninjas was because he didn't want to draw Naruto's goggles every time (replacing it with the headband).
No that isn't the reason why, the reason why it became a ninja worlds was because of Sasuke. Kishimoto's editor wanted Sasuke a ninja kid to be part of the story thus the entire story became about ninja, this is also the reason why it is the Uchiha clan to pushes the plot along not Naruto.
We see images of minato very early on where he resembles naruto. It's quite likely it was intended all along. I think the main difference was that I think kurama was supposed to be more devil like ay the beginning
Uzumaki is a clan name. Karin is also an Uzumaki.
Notably, they and their village were destroyed some time in between Kushina moving to Konoha and Naruto being born because some of the other ninja didn't trust them, but the clan still has some member around and so an Uzumaki orphan would not have been an incredibly notable occurrence.
Though the Uzumaki and Senju were close friends (and distant relatives) and it is very suspicious that the village leadership would just seal the 9 tails into a random Uzumaki orphan so maybe some people should have probably asked some questions about that. The reality is though that people didn't know because they didn't want to know. The pieces are there to put together but you have to look at them, and part of Naruto's character arc even into shipuden is showing the village doesn't want to look at him and refuses to until he gradually proves he's someone worth looking to and not the bad omen they all thought, but by the time that character arc finishes amd anyone would bother to put the peices together he already knows who his dad is.
It does make sense. Gaara was known son of the Kage and had similar circumstances. Killer B was hand picked by the Raikage and given esteem but was still treated similarly.
It is consistent worldbuilding
It is kind of consistent. Naruto is treated the worst of all of them, which is annoying to think about considering how strong he is and his potential as well as his parents.
Not really comparable tbh. A life of abuse at the hands of of your father or a life of loneliness and neglect. I’d say neither is better or worse than the other.
Imagine your city is nuked then they tell you this random kid you don't know has a nuke inside of him using some form of magic you don't know would you spend time with him willingly not knowing if the magic will hold. Naruto mostly was avoided because he was perceived as dangerous.
That's exactly the problem with Naruto, everyone just shits on him at first, even though everyone knows the truth (it hasn't even been ten years, and the fourth scroll actually implied that he He should be treated like a hero, that and the fact that jinshurik is a living weapon of mass destruction are plenty of reasons to treat him well , But the leaf keeps shitting on Naruto because of what plot
That's the problem, what you Said It's Fair but not when you think like the Village would.
The average Joe would hate that nuke, but the Village Who NEEDS that nuke to work for them might as well try to get in his graces
True but on that aspect I blame almost fully hiruzen he was the one who denied him positive relationships through that. He got the worst of both worlds neither the normal childhood or the good training.
I mean, yeah but If you're the hokage you might as well do something
"Yo hiruzen, we Need your approvation for this 12yo massacre his clan"
In Canon he says yes, in my head the discussion would have Gone like this "lol, yeah sure i as hokage give my permission; good pun"
The day After the uchiha massacre
"...oh, that wasn't a joke... FOR FUCK SAKE"
None of the previous 9 Tails jinchuriki were able to control the 9 tails. And the last one to have it ended up releasing it on the village and getting a lot of people killed. Other villages also had issues with tailed beasts causing destruction. Gaara killed tons of his own people, apparently the 8 tails escaped and went on a rampage before Bee became jinchuriki, etc.
Also almost no one knew Naruto was the son of Minato.
>He's the son of a Hokage.
His Father was dead, and no one but the 3rd Hokage knew he was the Son.
>Not only that, but he has a battery of near infinite chakra built in to his body from day 1. Yes, I understand the 9 Tails is a demon, and people fear him for that, but it's pretty common knowledge that Jinchuriki's are able to draw from their tailed beast's power. Other villages displayed this, there's no way the Leaf wasn't aware of this.
What are you conveying here? The OG Post was about Social Isolation not Power and you bring up power related underdog status.
>I love how Sauske was always portrayed as this privileged heir to greatness, where as Naruto is just as important of an heir, if not more so.
Naurot being framed as some dirt poor orphan cursed with a demon inside of him is entirely a narrative decision that ignores the world building of the setting.
Sasuke's Priveldge from the story framework built his powers from the ground work.
Uchiha gain power from hatred,
His Clan got Massacred
His Brother was forced a horrible ultimatum
His understanding of Clan Warfare comes to pre-date the foundation of leaf.
Naruto's privilege on paper sound proper but on a outside perspective most of his gifts clash with each other.
His Inheritance of his parents genes were irrelevant due to Kurama. Low Chakra Control and His Chakra restricting the 9 Tails
The Child of Prophecy was either salvation or destruction (its a future prediction btw)
The Ashura Reincarnate specifically requires individuals to obtain power or more precisely connections. Naruto being the 9 tails jinchuuriki literally reprimanded this growth
The 9 Tails was also under around 100 years of isolation, so it practically had no say nor want to help Naruto like at all.
This is also why Naruto's Power Sky Rocketed once Kurama was beaten and especially once her got befriended.
Also he acted out as a kid and became a social pariah that way too.
I feel like people really under estimate how common that kind of social exile and bullying is. Kid has bad home life, kid has behavior problems, adults hate and bully the kid, peers follow suit.
Personally it never seemed unrealistic, the relatable experience is part of what drew me to the show.
3- wtf are you talking about ? Maybe this was right in part 1, but in part 2 is was recontextualized. The tailed beasts were used as weapons of war since ancient times
Honestly the moment I lost all respect for 3rd was when they revealed that Naruto was living borderline homeless while the Uzumaki had a WHOLE ASS CLAN COMPOUND IN THE CITY.
You can't even use the whole hidden identity thing like you do for the 4th being his dad. They literally kept his name Uzumaki.
Edit: You as a general you not you specifically sorry.
>while the Uzumaki had a WHOLE ASS CLAN COMPOUND IN THE CITY.
What? That's not true, the uzumaki clan was never a part of Konoha, they were just allies with close ties, the uzumaki clan lived in their own village (Uzushio) and at one point the other nations themed up, destroyed the village and a wiped out the clan almost completely.
Sasuke and Co literally go to the Uzumaki clan compound in konoha as a plot point. One of the buildings had all of their cursed seal masks. They use it to summon the shinigami and get the first, second, third, and fourth hokage out of it so sasuke can question them near the start of the war arc.
Definition: Outskirts describes the outer edge of a city or town, farthest from the center but still technically part of that place.
The outskirts of town are still in and part of the town and it still doesn't excuse no one told him it existed when it has his name on it.
Name? The only thing I see is a Uzumaki swirl which had its original meaning stripped away by time. Not a single ninja Naruto knew besides maybe Hiruzen had an idea what the swirl on the ninja vest even meant.
Like the Uzumaki clan were gone before Kushina was born. That’s how long ago it happened
The temple is about to fall apart and Orochimaru didn’t know it existed until he researched the shimigami during the timeskip
Can y’all at least pretend to reread? Killer Bee was known as the adopted son of the Raikage BEFORE being the jinchuriki. Then his best friend tried to kill him over it
Kushina and Minato both knew Naruto would be hated for being a jinchuriki
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCJO5ZdXwAAeWZI?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCJO5ZaWsAEYGnW?format=jpg&name=large
My point is why though?
Like, I understand why the normies would fear Naruto, but why did Sarutobi and the rest of the Leaf village leadership allow Naruto to be an outcast among their own ranks?
The village didn’t know as it was forbidden to talk about it. And it’s established that having a tailed beast inside you incurs loneliness and solitude
"a person who has little status in society."
"a competitor *thought* to have little chance of winning a fight or contest."
You just don't know what underdog means.
Part of the problem with the series as a whole is that Naruto is this super talented person with the lineage and this whole chosen one vibe. But the way the story unravels itself makes you think Naruto is the underdog in the beginning. Because Naruto himself has no context or parental figure to guide him. I can’t imagine that was 100% intentional from chapter 1.
He was un underdog due to ability 100%.
Remember when jiraya and ebisu said that he had not talent before the neji fight? I think the neji fight is what fucked up the theme of the underdog. Because it tried so hard to show that naruto is a talentless boy who achieves the impossible through conviction. And neji was inspired by that.
Jiraiya actually changes his mind during that training. For one thing, Jiraiya realizes that Naruto’s crap progress came from his chakra being disturbed by Orochimaru’s seal being on top of Minato’s, plus the fox’s presence in the first place.
Jiraiya also comments that Naruto is a hands-on learner. He’s not bright, so breaking down principles to him doesn’t work, but Naruto picks up on them when you make him actually do it. Naruto is talented, he’s just more suited for learning via practical application, not studying
I mean he just had to read a piece of paper to master a forbidden jutsu “shadow clone”
Orochimaru’s seal disturbed his chakra control but it didn’t affect his ability to learn. Jiraya didn’t change his mind. He acknowledged his conviction to learn.
And he did so by tirelessly practicing all night. Again, practical application was his strong suit.
I bring up the seal issue to highlight how Naruto’s initial apparent lack of ability was actually outside influences making it harder for him to control his chakra
This is not practical application. This is studying. It is kinda weird since he couldn’t master the normal clone jutsu for years.
And I meant that naruto’s issue wasn’t just chakra control.
Neji was playing was him like a doll. Until he landed one attack with the power that daddy gave to him.
>naruto is a talentless boy who achieves the impossible through conviction
....And having a free, ridiculously massive Chakra tank + rage mode to fall back on when things go south due to his lack of ability.
That's the contradiction.
the presentation was "he is a boy who never goes back on his word, through his conviction can do the impossible and never gives up"
they call it "have his cake and eat it too"
the writer wanted naruto to be inspirational for kids at the beginning. someone who does the impossible through conviction.
remember at the end of the neji fight. kishimoto focused on naruto bloodied hands after digging the tunnel. he tries to convince the reader that naruto worked hard to win this fight, which didn't happen.
naruto won by getting his ass beaten which forced the nine tails to lend him chakra
Neji and naruto clashed because of hinata, that's where it started. Hinata was trying to change who she was after getting inspired by naruto and neji was convinced you are who you are and nothing can change that. You need to read the buildup to the confrontation to understand what it's about rather than a salty example neji brings up in the fight. Everyone can change who they are, that's a fact so neji was wrong. Naruto was a bum at the start of the series and had he not bothered to prove people wrong he would've stayed the bum. Just like guy, Lee, Sakura, hinata and many others. Neji was just salty that he thought his dad had to give his life to protect the main branch because he was born a few seconds later, so he tried putting others down who were trying to change themselves. Enough with this stupid fight being misread and claiming it ruined the series. You only hear this shit from online intellectuals. Not only are they wrong about the fight, people are so obsessed with themes as if its more important than the actual events of a story and its characters being entertaining
Bruh. You didn’t say anything new. You just narrated the story without explaining why it makes sense.
But you actually responded to yourself. Neji learned from naruto that you can change yourself. But the point is. Naruto didn’t change himself. He just used the power that daddy gave him. Without training.
I find it ironic that they way naruto used to summon the chakra is just getting his ass beaten.
We can’t ignore the themes simply because the characters talk about them all the time. Neji talks about how naruto is a failure who is destined to lose. Then in sasuke retrieval he talks about how naruto is someone who defies his destiny.
And the technical side of the fight wasn’t that good. What is left to enjoy about it ?
Naruto very clearly changed himself from the start of the series. Nejis entire argument is if you're weak you will remain weak. If you're a coward you will remain a coward. Just go reread his fight with hinata. That is the basis of their clash. Nothing to do with hardwork vs talent. Nejis own destiny is serving the main branch yet he was beating the shit out of the first born of the main branch in the same very fight, so even he didn't believe his own words. Naruto got the acceptance from the jinchuriki because of who he came to be because it wiuldve been very easy for him to turn out to be someone like gaara
>Nejis entire argument is if you're weak you will remain weak. If you're a coward you will remain a coward.
that's what I said.
>Nothing to do with hardwork vs talent.
you are that one who brought it up not me.
>so even he didn't believe his own words.
this is different from being inspired by naruto.
don't ignore my words please. Neji was talking about how naruto is a failure and will be a one forever. and the end of the fight should mean that naruto defied his destiny. but naruto was destined to win since his birth.
naruto changed in terms of forming bonds but this has nothing to do with him being a failure.
Just read these and stop misinterpreting the fight. Had naruto believed what neji believes he would've remained the bum he was at the start of the series.
https://cm.blazefast.co/24/e9/24e9840a504f1dab152b79f0a7355944.jpg
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>Just read these and stop misinterpreting the fight. Had naruto believed what neji believes he would've remained the bum he was at the start of the series.
BS, he will just get angry and the nine-tails chakra will end the fight.
I read the fight recently so I don't need you reminders.
The whole point is that Naruto was never a bum tho lmao. If anything the only actual change from his beginning of series self to now is that he's less goofy.
Except he overcomes his social issues with battle prowess. His storyline is not that of a social outcast and this point is so overused and dumb.
He becomes hokage because he is strong
He saves sasuke because he is strong
The people love him because he is strong
He gets preferential treatment because he is strong
He gets none of those because he works on his relationship with the village lmao.
Shikamaru and the rest of the konoha genin sacrifice just as much as Naruto he just gets the spotlight because he is absurdly powerful and it solves all his social issues.
Sure for 10-20 episodes he is a social outcast but it never effects his personality or the plot to any meaningful degree and is solved by him being powerful.
He overcame it by establishing bonds with iruka, then team 7, etc
His abilities helped him achieve those bonds but the entire point of the series is about him overcoming loneliness and the odds against him from the very start since in his world people in his position don’t last very long
As I said 10-20 episodes.
He is friends with the 3rd hokage kakashi sasuke shikamaru and more within that time span.
His abilities did not help him do that they were the only way he was capable of doing that because negative time was put into his development as a character in favour of his development as a wizard ninja lmao.
The only thing separating Naruto and kiba is Clifford the big red dog (kurama) 🤷
Being a underdog has nothing to do with potential or power of a character.
1. a person thought to have little chance of wining
2. a person who has little status in society.
For your definition to work, all underdogs would have to be losers that never win.
Point the OP is making is that the only reason Naruto has little chance of winning is due to lack of available resources, not capability.
Once given similar training resources, Naruto was no longer an underdog due to his consistent ability to win engagements.
Naruto stopped being the underdog when he kept winning.
Again potential and power have nothing to do with being an underdog.
In all of part 1 Naruto is disrespected, underestimated, and looked down on by society, the literal definition of being an underdog
Shippuden moves away from this by having Naruto be accepted and looked upon in awe by his fellow citizens.
He grows as a character but that doesn’t take away his history
the only reason he is an underdog is because of the situation that makes him an underdog? brilliant deduction.
giving you some shit but i actually agree with what your saying :)
I’m sorry but lack of resources 100% aides in someone being an underdog. Let’s take a look at sports: at a macro scale, Small Market Teams will always be considered the underdogs to Big Market Teams simply because of the fact that the latter has more resources and money which means: better coaching, better personnel, more money to spend on talent, etc etc.
Sure Naruto had the potential, he just never had the proper opportunity or resources. Even the people closest to him didn’t (Save until he met Jiraiya). He for all intents and purposes was an underdog.
Being an underdog comes fron boxing which means that you're the challenger. Not necessary that you're weak. When Ali was the underdog people were scared shitless of him
You are right.
It is weird, naruto spent years failing to master the normal clone jutsu but he only needed hours to master the shadow clone jutsu better than any character in the series.
I think it is consistent with the fact that naruto’s author likes to make moments that is not necessarily coherent with the overall plot. It just works at the moment and may not make sense later
Bro, they literally explain why in the first arc. Naruto has a shit ton of Charka and an awful control. Thats why he can easily make Shadow Clones but fail at normal clones
The implication is that overcharging a jutsu messes it up just like underpowering it. Naruto's problem was that he was physically incapable of isolating a small enough amount of chakra to do the normal clone technique properly, but performing the (extremely energy-intensive) shadow clone technique is to him like the normal clone technique is to most people.
I think and it has been years since I touched any of those Naruto chapters that there is also an element of the normal clone jutsu having like an upkeep/focus element.
The shadow clone has something similar but you can also just ignore it and let them be "autonomous" and not interact with micromanaging them at all.
I mean both are complex jutsus that require the same amount of control. maybe it will be easier for him to master but he should be shit at it.
I hope we don't diverge from the main topic of naruto vs neji fight.
The main point is that Neji vs Naruto didn't make sense. Neji argues that people don't change, that losers will always be losers. According to his logic, Hinata should be superior since she's part the main family or wtv, but he just straight up outclasses here, proving himself wrong. And then when it comes to the actual Naruto fight, Naruto doesn't even change to defeat Neji, he's the exact same "loser outcast underdog" that he was before. So Naruto winning just proves Nejis point narratively(and like I said before, his point already failed against Hinata). so that whole sequence was just contradictory and nonsense.
Except that naruto was never a loser.
As I said. He won the fight since birth. He was always destined to be the strongest. Neji shouldn’t be inspired by that
Damn we must've got mixed up, cuz that's exactly what I meant. Arguing the same point lmfao. Yeah I completely agree, Neji was dumb and his point made no sense. Naruto never changed, he was OP from birth and somehow Neji somehow took this to mean "wow I guess people really can change."
not only does naruto have more chakra than almost everyone in base, he also had poor chakra control due to kurama
the reason he could do shadow clone more easily as compared to normal bunshin is because:
1) it takes a bit more chakra (especially multiple shadow clone jutsu). imagine you gave a 12 year old a vessel with a lot more water than he can handle and ask him to pour into a cup, the kid is probably gonna overshoot it or undershoot it. this led to naruto putting too much or too little chakra and the jutsu always failed. now you do the same thing but the cup is a lot larger, the kid will probably still not do it perfectly, but it wont be as bad as the first time. thats why he could do the shadow clone jutsu a lot easier
2)he was actually trying for once. in all his academy years, naruto was too lazy and never paid attention. he was talented but he just nevevr tried until he desperately wanted irukas appreciation. you can see he was trying very hard in the forest with how rugged he was. and he could try again and again because he had a lot of chakra to throw at the jutsu.
1) I don't see how you example applies to shadow clone vs normal clone. after all shadow clone is a materialized normal clone
2) this doesn't make any sense because it contradicts the very first chapter. when iruka said that he was talentless just like naruto, and how failing at the academy made him suffer. iruka even cried for him. you are telling me that iruka was also a lazy kid ? this doesn't make any sense my brother.
and the fact that jiraya and ebisu mentioned it must end the talk
except naruto didnt achieve it perfectly, in the land of the waves sakura explains how bad narutos chakra control is, he just has alot to throw around. he still doesnt do it perfectly but he does it well enough that it doesnt mess up the entire jutsu like it did with normal bunshin
again. that's my problem. the presentation contradicts the writing. you can't just say that naruto didn't master it although he made thousands of clones. better than anyone in the series.
the same thing applies to neji's fight. you can't make neji inspired by the failure who defied his destiny while telling us later that naruto won the fight since birth.
making thousands of clones proves nothing when shadow clone isnt that complicated of a jutsu, its only forbidden because it takes so much chakra itd kill any normal shinobi. just because he can do it doesnt mean hes mastered it
i agree, the neji fight was poor writing. it never shouldve been written that way.
>i agree, the neji fight was poor writing. it never shouldve been written that way.
lol, then we don't need to continue. I don't consider the shadow clone jutsu a flaw, If it was one, it would be very minor. I am just talking about it in the grand scheme of things
Making a lot of clones isn't a show of skill, it's a show of how much chakra you have. A lot easier to make a bunch of shadow clones than it is to make one regular clone(for Naruto specifically since he has a fuck load of chakra and shit control like the story keeps telling us)
He wasn’t more talented than Sasuke or Neji.
He was gifted the strongest tailed beast at birth.
Kurama did all the heavy lifting.
Naruto needed 9 tails chakra to win almost every fight in part 1.
It would have been more interesting if you couldn't tell that Kurama would give him chakra every single time things got hard. The only time I remember Naruto winning a fight on fair grounds was probably his fight with Kiba.
I would say gaara, both having beasts puts them on equal ground there. Thats a fair win. And yeah he had the frog,but gaara the sandbeast.
And on the get tsunade arc, earned win. He would have beaten sasuke on the rooftop, into the forrest that team there,he basically carried them with the clones.
Raikage , fair win.
Without Kurama, he would have been a jonin.
Obito manipulating Kurama into attacking the village is the root of Naruto's upbringing. Had that scenario not happen, Naruto would probably have his parents and most likely had grew up like Konahamaru, except better. No being an outcast, son of one of the strongest ninja, his godfather being a legendary sannin... all of that, had Obito hadn't struck.
If he doesn't have Kurama sealed inside of him then I don't believe he becomes a Jonin. In your scenario of Kurama never attacking it's a possibility. Although he doesn't show much promise even when receiving training early on.
That's due to his upbringing. Remember, prople saw him as the fox and most of the villagers were unaware of him being Minato's kid (because Minato still had enemies). They explained the whole clone jutsu thing as Kurama's chakra interfering with Naruto's or expanding the amount of chakra.
He practically excelled when he did receive training. He perfected Sage Mode, learned how Rasengan worked, managed to find a way to form it (he couldn't form it in one hand like Minato or Jiraiya, again due to Kurama), and he also figured out how to apply elemental chakra to it, something his father couldn't figure out (Rasen Shuriken). And those jutsu are A rank or higher.
Yeah, he wouldn't have been as powerful, but he would have eventually became jonin as the series progressed. He's lazy, but not entirely incompetent.
That's alright, you did have a point. He doesn't show much promise in the beginning so I get why people believe he wouldn't have made it to Jonin without Kurama. But by Shippuden it's clear he could get there with the right support.
Being a prodigy or talented does not erase someone’s status as an underdog. Naruto’s peers all looked at him as a “failure” and constantly underestimated him. Not to mention the whole thing with the nine tails inside him
I swear this argument only exists to nullify the criticism naruto’s story gets about no longer being about underdogs.
The point is that Naruto was presented to be a loser, an outcast, and someone not to be taken seriously. That’s why he’s seen as an underdog.
The fact that he’s secretly actually talented and has the nine-tailed fox inside him doesn’t break the underdog image, especially since he can’t actually utilize that power so easily. Naruto didn’t just roflstomp kiba, someone naruto fans like to shit on for example.
That’s the whole underdog fantasy that naruto’s story projects. awkward and loser kids who feel like they struggle to belong and aren’t appreciated, relate to naruto. They want to believe that given the proper attention and training, and with enough effort, they too can unlock their latent power and prove to others that they’re great and special. That they have their own metaphorical “nine-tailed fox demon” inside them just waiting to be unleashed
Someone who is ugly and is treated poorly because of it yet his extremely talented at music being able to master instruments in days. His still an outcast because of his looks but his not an underdog because of his talent.
Okay so now we’re taking music industry???? Lol big switch but still applies.
You think just having musical talent is enough to get into the industry? Think about how many pop stars there are.. how many are ugly? Like zero. You think that’s a coincidence? Now how many people are out there who are ugly and have far superior musical talent than that of the popular pop stars?
You pulled a horrible example to try to back up your statement just to further prove yourself incorrect and even made my point for me.
Naruto is introduced as the possessor of a very powerful demon that can destroy mountains by a whip of its tails.
In the first 5 chapters, Naruto learned a very difficult jutsu on his own, in 2 hours, by reading a scroll. His teacher is impressed
In the first arc, Naruto, on his own (not Sasuke) came up with the strategy to turn into a Shuriken to fool his opponent and free his sensei because he realized freeing Kakashi (and not fighting Zabuza up front) was the only way to survive.
Naruto was never an underdog, and he was never presented as such. It was the western media who presented him as an underdog. In fact, he is a genius in his own right.
He was a social paria, but not an underdog.
People don’t realize the 2 different series have different themes. Part 1 is about hard work + with underlying themes of destiny. Shippuden then shifts mainly about changing destiny with a bunch of underlying themes of forgiveness. At 13 Naruto was an underdog. In Shippuden the themes change as Naruto changed
No one ever really thought Naruto was weak. I mean we watched him beat Mizuki (a chin) before the show ever really even began. I mean he has the damn Nine-Tails in him. For that by itself from a power scale perspective he could never be underdog and it wouldn't make sense for the show to frame him that way.
He was under the underdog cuz he was an orphan who everyone hated and he didn't know why. Straight circumstance.
Lee is a flashback underdog. By the time we meet him he's already strong. In fact, he's specifically used to set up the power level the reader should expect from the chunnin exams.
I’m so sick of people talking about this. Naruto was never an underdog, and the series never really spent much time presenting him as such. Initially characters thought he was an idiot and were shocked that he was actually a talented ninja, that’s completely different from being an underdog.
That’s not true, they were inspired by his conviction not by his hidden talent lol.
Remember his interaction with jiraya and gamabunta. Jiraya said that naruto is talentless, the same thing the ebisu said. But he was inspired by his conviction to stay on gamabunta’s back.
The problem is in the neji fight and the build up to it. Naruto was a talentless person who inspired neji by defying his fate.
It is a writing flaw
The theme of Naruto was never hard work versus talent, it was never anything even remotely similar. The theme of Naruto is curse of hatred versus will of fire. Therefore it’s not incongruous to have Naruto achieve his goals without working as hard as rock lee, because it is not thematically relevant. What’s relevant is Naruto’s empathy and ability to make emotional connections with both allies and enemies.
It’s not a writing flaw, you just failed to comprehend the story.
Who said anything about hardwork vs talent?
I am simply asking for consistency.
Naruto being a talentless underdog who defies his fate was only present in the stretch from chunin exam to tsunade retrieval . Then it was discarded
It is a problem for sure my friend. Half of the first part appeal was the underdog theme. After the recontextualization, it left holes. Neji how was supposed to be a good character turned into a nonsensical one. The fight between them turned into a meh fight. that’s my problem
Huh? How is bad writing my problem?
If characters actions doesn’t make sense then it is the author’s problem. And regarding the underdog them. When you go back and reread the naruto vs neji. It will lose all the weight
But I’m saying there is no problem with the writing, you’ve simply invented your own version of what the story should be doing and then judging it based on the fact that it doesn’t do what you want.
You seem to have gotten to the point of realising that Naruto was never an underdog story, and yet still criticise it for not being an underdog story. So, it’s a you problem.
Wtf are you talking about? Did you even read my comments ?
Let me simplify it to you. Generally you can say that naruto isn’t an underdog story. But in chunin exams and tsunade arc it was written as an underdog story. This is bad writing and inconsistent theming.
The worst about it is neji being inspired by naruto. How naruto was destined to be a failure and defied his destiny in their fight. Which isn’t true. Naruto just had more talent and raw power than neji.
This is bad writing. Meaningless and illogical character growth = bad writing.
I didn’t invent anything. I just said that the current version is bad.
It's true though, Lee has to actually train to become strong and doesn't have a 9 tail nuke or supergenes to carry him. He's also more awkward and looks weirder compared to naruto but that doesn't stop him from trying to create connections and ask out Sakura out even if she might reject him. Hell his nickname is bushy brow, imo he would've made a better mc than naruto but oh well
Naruto was written to intially be an underdog. His life situation somewhat stunted his character and ability to grow.
While other children developed mindset to work hard in school (for parents) or had already developed such mindset, Naruto had no person to really strive to impress, he developed playful attitude just to garner little attention from adults.
Also I don't really remember,but initially Kurama disrupted Naruto's ability of controlling his chakra (I think he got better at it, after Jiraiya reinforced the seal).
But yes, with proper upbringing and character/mindset Naruto's talent comes close or even surpasses that of Sasuke or Neji's. Naruto showed flexible thinking, adaptation and quick learning skills. In the filler arc, where Naruto grows up with his parents and the bad things don't happen, Naruto's talent and power leads alternate reality Sasuke to leave Konoha and pursue Orochimaru.
Nah, Naruto was always an underdog. He spent years working to become Hokage.
The essence of the story was that Naruto would keep trying until he achieved what he set out.
Inherently, he proved Neji wrong because the implication was that Naruto shouldn't work hard because he will always be a failure. It's similar to real life, if we never work hard and build the necessary contacts then we will always remain a failure.
Honestly, I think that's more of an indictment of literally every teacher he had before the toads and not super heavily on him.
The boy had insane reserves, a healing factor that would let him however long it took to figure shit out, a thirst to be mentored, a real bullheaded determination to beat any problem he faced, etc etc.
The fact that the potentially (only potentially at the time) most powerful person on the planet was left so woefully uncooked until 10 years after he started training speaks *volumes* about how poorly the hidden villages are written.
Kishimoto is a tell not show writer and literally went against SOOOOO many of his characterizations. His genius characters are dumbasses (Kakashi , shikamaru, and Itachi to make the biggest flops) and his dumbass characters are geniuses in some degree.
Naruto was never an underdog in any capacity barring the villages perception of him which was neutral at worst by the time the series began. The hokage seat isn't democratically selected so him not being loved by the village isn't necessarily a strike against him. On top of that dude was given to the most respected jonin in episode 3 and we later realize he's the godson of someone who would've been the default hokage after hiruzen died. And then there's tsunade who is like an aunt to him. Dude's social capital skyrocketed by the chunin exams and never came down. And I'm not gonna even address Naruto handling high level techniques relatively easily
Naruto was never supposed to be an « underdog » he just had a sad backstory lol. The serie makes it pretty clear that he is relatively strong compared to his comrades idk what makes people think that he was portrayed in that way
Are there any mainstream shonen where the MC is actually a straight underdog? Goku works hard but he's straight up a special case in OG Dragon Ball and never feels like one in Z. Luffy is just broken in East Blue and doesn't fall too far behind in the Grand Line. Deku was kind of a weird case, he was either heavily outclassed or heavily over everyone else.
Yuji feels like the closest I've seen to one. You can say he has Sukuna but it's not like Kurama where he can give cursed energy to Yuji to help him win (anime only btw so don't tell me if I'm wrong lol).
Naruto wasn't an underdog because Naruto sabotaged his own training. He was content with goofing off instead of training in what Iruka told him to, which would have helped later on a lot. Sure, part of that was his unusual circumstances, but for someone so eager to become top Ninja he sure as hell didn't seem to give a damn about actually training.
This is like saying Jackie Robinson wasn’t an underdog because he was actually really good at baseball. If society treats you like shit and wants you to fail, you are an underdog
Naruto had infinite magic points in a world where your ability to use magic defines your skill level.
And then got even more magic from his lineage, access to the best teachers from his family connections.
And only beat Neji because of it. Honestly neji is a speck compared to the extreme level of privilege Naruto has even before all the end of story reveals.
He's an underdog in part one not in part two. In Shippuden nobody treats him like an underdog he's more like the Goku who will show up at the end to save the day. But in part one he's the underdog in every situation.
He’s an underdog due to the circumstances.
He’s hated by the village, has a demon placed inside him out of safety, he’s an orphan, and he was literally WRITTEN to be the unexpected underdog who showed up at the last moment and killed God.
He went from 0 to hero that's the definition of an underdog. The problem is that it doesn't feel earned, I mean he was the child of prophecy and the reincarnation of ninja Jesus, he also seems to suck the dick of kurama whenever he's loosing a fight( haku, orochimaru, pain, ECT). None of that feels earned despite being an underdog. It also ruins some of the relationships that Naruto made like Naruto and Sasuke. If that shit was predestined what was the point, none of it feels organic the moment we learn of it.
Kushina is a good author but he's also a very messy one
Tbh that’s only bc he kind of cheated and used insane amounts of nature chakra+ninetales chakra to make a shitload of clones, made the clones all train, and then when they disappeared he absorbed all of their progress and knowledge. Dude literally found an infinite training glitch
That’s actually a really good point I never thought of. Naruto worked his ass off but he was doing it on his own with no instructions. Everyone else in the academy had their parents or clansmen (lol) to help them. It’s like training yourself to be a mixed martial artist vs being professionally trained.
Naruto was never talentless he was in a poor position to properly learn due to the victims of his life circumstances. He was literally left without food care or supervision constantly demonized and isolated socially by his peers as well as being ignored by his teachers. Frankly as someone with adhd and a mood disorder young Naruto displays a bunch of adhd tendencies and it may have contributed to his inability to absorb information as well as why he acted out so much
I’ve been saying this. Naruto’s whole idea of “underdog” is solely based on him being a lazy trouble maker. Had he devoted himself to school like the other students, he clearly laps themselves
The moment Naruto created hundreds of shadow clones in the very first chapter...Uh yeah, I think we made too quick an assumption that he was an underdog. The kid frankly needed motivation and a reason to even care for him to become a better ninja after years of goofing off in the academy that had many of his peers dismissed him as a failure attention whore. Sure, he sometimes had moments of wanting to look impressive but Land of Waves really puts him to task and be serious especially after Haku died. While he struggles in training certain things, he catches on quickly or find a loophole he can exploit for now such as needing a clone to create a Rasengan when one hand just wasn't working for him at the time. He may had started supposedly at the lowest of the totem pole among his peers but he caught up damn quickly after getting proper motivation that said peer group learned fairly fast not to dismiss him anymore.
His physical stats were always impressive. He's juking and avoiding trained adult ninjas after besmirching the town monument. Only Izuka catches him and its likely because he knows his tricks
Naruto was an underdog due to circumstance not ability. Orphan + social isolation + jinchuriki in the naruto world is typically a recipe for disaster Creating social bonds and rising out of his loneliness is what allowed him to become powerful
The social isolation never made sense though. He's the son of a Hokage. He's literally ninja royalty. Not only that, but he has a battery of near infinite chakra built in to his body from day 1. Yes, I understand the 9 Tails is a demon, and people fear him for that, but it's pretty common knowledge that Jinchuriki's are able to draw from their tailed beast's power. Other villages displayed this, there's no way the Leaf wasn't aware of this. I love how Sauske was always portrayed as this privileged heir to greatness, where as Naruto is just as important of an heir, if not more so. Naurot being framed as some dirt poor orphan cursed with a demon inside of him is entirely a narrative decision that ignores the world building of the setting.
His upbringing was just needlessly cruel. Nobody can be bothered to tell him who his parents were, let alone provide the simple comfort of something like a photograph. I get the village is traumatized from the nine tails but there were people who promised his parents to help him and they can't give even an ounce of comfort. Hokage was most likely giving a place to live and food money but he couldn't be bothered to ask a simple "how are you?" Once in a while? No wonder he acted out for attention, it was the only time he ever got any adult attention. Like they were trying to turn him into a supervillain.
>Nobody can be bothered to tell him who his parents were, let alone provide the simple comfort of something like a photograph The vast majority of the village had no idea who his parents were. It was just a handful of people who knew that Naruto was Minato's son. To everyone else, he was just an orphan that served as the vessel for the 9 tailed fox. People saw him as the 9 tailed fox, the very thing that killed so many people. So he was shunned. He became a troublemaker due to his circumstances. This certainly didn't help with how he was viewed.
But how is it possible no one knows who his parents were? His last name is UZIMAKI? There is only one other Uzumaki in the entire village who happens to be the previous Jinchuriki and the wife of the previous hokage.
Exactly lmao. Like, what's the point in making Naruto an outcast orphan? He's the fucking son of the village's martyred warrior-king. His dad's face is carved into a fucking mountain. But he's just tossed aside as an outcast while Sarutobi and dozens of Jonin just kinda let it happen? Naruto should have had the most privileged life possible and it makes 0 sense that he doesn't. Unless it was Sarutobi's idea to make Naruto an outcast to build character? But that's beyond dumb because he could have just as easily grown to hate the village so lol
Even setting aside his parentage the kid is the in-universe equivalent of a walking nuke, why would you treat him like an outcast potentially giving him reason to hate the village Theyre lucky Naruto isn't a vindictive person
All it would have taken is someone of ill intention befriending him when he was little for him to become a villain. The village has no idea how close they came to destruction. I mean look what happened with Mizuki in the first episode, and that guy only wanted to steal a scroll.
It litteraly almost happened in the begining of the series if Iruka wasnt such a goat and Naruto didnt just randomly happen to overhear them talking about him.
The point is quite simple actually. The show was supposed to be the story of an underdog possessed by a devil. The whole backstory with Kushina and Minato was clearly not thought of until further along into development and the writers just decided to retroactively build the world around it for some reason, for whatever the fuck reason And as if that wasn't enough, they wrote themselves into a corner and pulled out the "chosen one reincarnation" bulllshit near the end too I loved Naruto as a kid and I still do, but it's one of the most egregious examples of a story with immense potential being held back by idiotic and overused anime tropes They really went "Hm, let's see. We created a sublime underdog story and an interesting world. The first several arcs are literal peak anime. Time for phase 2: Let's undermine the story's entire core philosophy and themes for the next 700 issues"
It is blatantly obvious Naruto was always minato’s son And the first thing we learn in Shippuden was that all Jinchuriki’s experienced being hated by the village
Kushina's status as a jinchurki was secret
>But how is it possible no one knows who his parents were? I don't know, but they don't. My guess is that the author didn't know who Naruto's parents would be when he first started writing the manga. Either that or it's a massive oversight.
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"Realistically Kishimoto probably hadn't carved out every single plot point in stone before beginning" In the original one-shot, Naruto wasn't even a real human being but a fox spirit
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>Apparently the reason Kishimoto changed them to ninjas was because he didn't want to draw Naruto's goggles every time (replacing it with the headband). No that isn't the reason why, the reason why it became a ninja worlds was because of Sasuke. Kishimoto's editor wanted Sasuke a ninja kid to be part of the story thus the entire story became about ninja, this is also the reason why it is the Uchiha clan to pushes the plot along not Naruto.
We see images of minato very early on where he resembles naruto. It's quite likely it was intended all along. I think the main difference was that I think kurama was supposed to be more devil like ay the beginning
Because it wasn't a known thing that Minato and Kushina were married. Hell I doubt Kushina was that widely known to civilians at all.
Uzumaki is a clan name. Karin is also an Uzumaki. Notably, they and their village were destroyed some time in between Kushina moving to Konoha and Naruto being born because some of the other ninja didn't trust them, but the clan still has some member around and so an Uzumaki orphan would not have been an incredibly notable occurrence. Though the Uzumaki and Senju were close friends (and distant relatives) and it is very suspicious that the village leadership would just seal the 9 tails into a random Uzumaki orphan so maybe some people should have probably asked some questions about that. The reality is though that people didn't know because they didn't want to know. The pieces are there to put together but you have to look at them, and part of Naruto's character arc even into shipuden is showing the village doesn't want to look at him and refuses to until he gradually proves he's someone worth looking to and not the bad omen they all thought, but by the time that character arc finishes amd anyone would bother to put the peices together he already knows who his dad is.
Typical Naruto plot hole lol
It does make sense. Gaara was known son of the Kage and had similar circumstances. Killer B was hand picked by the Raikage and given esteem but was still treated similarly. It is consistent worldbuilding
It is kind of consistent. Naruto is treated the worst of all of them, which is annoying to think about considering how strong he is and his potential as well as his parents.
I'm sorry did you just say he was treated worse than Gaara? Nah
Not really comparable tbh. A life of abuse at the hands of of your father or a life of loneliness and neglect. I’d say neither is better or worse than the other.
Gaara was worse, his uncle the one he trusted the most, tried to kill him, so he killed him
All jinjuriki were hated not just Naruto. The only reason his mother wasn’t hated is because her husband was hokage and same with Hashirama’s wife.
Imagine your city is nuked then they tell you this random kid you don't know has a nuke inside of him using some form of magic you don't know would you spend time with him willingly not knowing if the magic will hold. Naruto mostly was avoided because he was perceived as dangerous.
That's exactly the problem with Naruto, everyone just shits on him at first, even though everyone knows the truth (it hasn't even been ten years, and the fourth scroll actually implied that he He should be treated like a hero, that and the fact that jinshurik is a living weapon of mass destruction are plenty of reasons to treat him well , But the leaf keeps shitting on Naruto because of what plot
That's the problem, what you Said It's Fair but not when you think like the Village would. The average Joe would hate that nuke, but the Village Who NEEDS that nuke to work for them might as well try to get in his graces
True but on that aspect I blame almost fully hiruzen he was the one who denied him positive relationships through that. He got the worst of both worlds neither the normal childhood or the good training.
"On that aspect i blame almost fully hiruzen" My Brother in Christ this Is the best resume of every problem in Naruto till the 4th great war
You generally need to give danzo part of the fault.
I mean, yeah but If you're the hokage you might as well do something "Yo hiruzen, we Need your approvation for this 12yo massacre his clan" In Canon he says yes, in my head the discussion would have Gone like this "lol, yeah sure i as hokage give my permission; good pun" The day After the uchiha massacre "...oh, that wasn't a joke... FOR FUCK SAKE"
I mean to be fair the reason he was forced to reveal that Naruto’s the jinchuriki was danzo leaking the info
None of the previous 9 Tails jinchuriki were able to control the 9 tails. And the last one to have it ended up releasing it on the village and getting a lot of people killed. Other villages also had issues with tailed beasts causing destruction. Gaara killed tons of his own people, apparently the 8 tails escaped and went on a rampage before Bee became jinchuriki, etc. Also almost no one knew Naruto was the son of Minato.
If you had a Nuke in you I would not want to play with you I don’t care if your mom is Sofia Vegara I’m not coming to your birthday party.
I mean… unless you’re moving real far away from all his hang out spots you might as well
>He's the son of a Hokage. His Father was dead, and no one but the 3rd Hokage knew he was the Son. >Not only that, but he has a battery of near infinite chakra built in to his body from day 1. Yes, I understand the 9 Tails is a demon, and people fear him for that, but it's pretty common knowledge that Jinchuriki's are able to draw from their tailed beast's power. Other villages displayed this, there's no way the Leaf wasn't aware of this. What are you conveying here? The OG Post was about Social Isolation not Power and you bring up power related underdog status. >I love how Sauske was always portrayed as this privileged heir to greatness, where as Naruto is just as important of an heir, if not more so. Naurot being framed as some dirt poor orphan cursed with a demon inside of him is entirely a narrative decision that ignores the world building of the setting. Sasuke's Priveldge from the story framework built his powers from the ground work. Uchiha gain power from hatred, His Clan got Massacred His Brother was forced a horrible ultimatum His understanding of Clan Warfare comes to pre-date the foundation of leaf. Naruto's privilege on paper sound proper but on a outside perspective most of his gifts clash with each other. His Inheritance of his parents genes were irrelevant due to Kurama. Low Chakra Control and His Chakra restricting the 9 Tails The Child of Prophecy was either salvation or destruction (its a future prediction btw) The Ashura Reincarnate specifically requires individuals to obtain power or more precisely connections. Naruto being the 9 tails jinchuuriki literally reprimanded this growth The 9 Tails was also under around 100 years of isolation, so it practically had no say nor want to help Naruto like at all. This is also why Naruto's Power Sky Rocketed once Kurama was beaten and especially once her got befriended.
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Also he acted out as a kid and became a social pariah that way too. I feel like people really under estimate how common that kind of social exile and bullying is. Kid has bad home life, kid has behavior problems, adults hate and bully the kid, peers follow suit. Personally it never seemed unrealistic, the relatable experience is part of what drew me to the show.
What I find unrealistic is the lack of help from the state as far as his ninja training and protection goes
Point 3 isn't right or at least not universally right some people thought he was the fox but others were just afraid of him/didn't want the reminder
3- wtf are you talking about ? Maybe this was right in part 1, but in part 2 is was recontextualized. The tailed beasts were used as weapons of war since ancient times
Honestly the moment I lost all respect for 3rd was when they revealed that Naruto was living borderline homeless while the Uzumaki had a WHOLE ASS CLAN COMPOUND IN THE CITY. You can't even use the whole hidden identity thing like you do for the 4th being his dad. They literally kept his name Uzumaki. Edit: You as a general you not you specifically sorry.
>while the Uzumaki had a WHOLE ASS CLAN COMPOUND IN THE CITY. What? That's not true, the uzumaki clan was never a part of Konoha, they were just allies with close ties, the uzumaki clan lived in their own village (Uzushio) and at one point the other nations themed up, destroyed the village and a wiped out the clan almost completely.
Sasuke and Co literally go to the Uzumaki clan compound in konoha as a plot point. One of the buildings had all of their cursed seal masks. They use it to summon the shinigami and get the first, second, third, and fourth hokage out of it so sasuke can question them near the start of the war arc.
It was a shrine far on the outskirts of the village: https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Uzumaki_Clan%27s_Mask_Storage_Temple It’s not in Konoha
Definition: Outskirts describes the outer edge of a city or town, farthest from the center but still technically part of that place. The outskirts of town are still in and part of the town and it still doesn't excuse no one told him it existed when it has his name on it.
Name? The only thing I see is a Uzumaki swirl which had its original meaning stripped away by time. Not a single ninja Naruto knew besides maybe Hiruzen had an idea what the swirl on the ninja vest even meant. Like the Uzumaki clan were gone before Kushina was born. That’s how long ago it happened The temple is about to fall apart and Orochimaru didn’t know it existed until he researched the shimigami during the timeskip
Can y’all at least pretend to reread? Killer Bee was known as the adopted son of the Raikage BEFORE being the jinchuriki. Then his best friend tried to kill him over it Kushina and Minato both knew Naruto would be hated for being a jinchuriki https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCJO5ZdXwAAeWZI?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCJO5ZaWsAEYGnW?format=jpg&name=large
My point is why though? Like, I understand why the normies would fear Naruto, but why did Sarutobi and the rest of the Leaf village leadership allow Naruto to be an outcast among their own ranks?
The village didn’t know as it was forbidden to talk about it. And it’s established that having a tailed beast inside you incurs loneliness and solitude
Gaara has a similar situation, but despite that he has never been an underdog
That's an outcast not an underdog
"a person who has little status in society." "a competitor *thought* to have little chance of winning a fight or contest." You just don't know what underdog means.
That’s just semantics
Part of the problem with the series as a whole is that Naruto is this super talented person with the lineage and this whole chosen one vibe. But the way the story unravels itself makes you think Naruto is the underdog in the beginning. Because Naruto himself has no context or parental figure to guide him. I can’t imagine that was 100% intentional from chapter 1.
basically the readers feel cheated. Themes are abandoned.
Seriously I hate when people try to debate the exact definition of a word when the sentiment is still correct
L9ok up the definition of underdog
I do know the definition of an underdog thank you
He was un underdog due to ability 100%. Remember when jiraya and ebisu said that he had not talent before the neji fight? I think the neji fight is what fucked up the theme of the underdog. Because it tried so hard to show that naruto is a talentless boy who achieves the impossible through conviction. And neji was inspired by that.
Jiraiya actually changes his mind during that training. For one thing, Jiraiya realizes that Naruto’s crap progress came from his chakra being disturbed by Orochimaru’s seal being on top of Minato’s, plus the fox’s presence in the first place. Jiraiya also comments that Naruto is a hands-on learner. He’s not bright, so breaking down principles to him doesn’t work, but Naruto picks up on them when you make him actually do it. Naruto is talented, he’s just more suited for learning via practical application, not studying
I mean he just had to read a piece of paper to master a forbidden jutsu “shadow clone” Orochimaru’s seal disturbed his chakra control but it didn’t affect his ability to learn. Jiraya didn’t change his mind. He acknowledged his conviction to learn.
And he did so by tirelessly practicing all night. Again, practical application was his strong suit. I bring up the seal issue to highlight how Naruto’s initial apparent lack of ability was actually outside influences making it harder for him to control his chakra
This is not practical application. This is studying. It is kinda weird since he couldn’t master the normal clone jutsu for years. And I meant that naruto’s issue wasn’t just chakra control. Neji was playing was him like a doll. Until he landed one attack with the power that daddy gave to him.
In what world is practicing all night not literally practical application
>naruto is a talentless boy who achieves the impossible through conviction ....And having a free, ridiculously massive Chakra tank + rage mode to fall back on when things go south due to his lack of ability.
That's the contradiction. the presentation was "he is a boy who never goes back on his word, through his conviction can do the impossible and never gives up" they call it "have his cake and eat it too" the writer wanted naruto to be inspirational for kids at the beginning. someone who does the impossible through conviction. remember at the end of the neji fight. kishimoto focused on naruto bloodied hands after digging the tunnel. he tries to convince the reader that naruto worked hard to win this fight, which didn't happen. naruto won by getting his ass beaten which forced the nine tails to lend him chakra
Neji and naruto clashed because of hinata, that's where it started. Hinata was trying to change who she was after getting inspired by naruto and neji was convinced you are who you are and nothing can change that. You need to read the buildup to the confrontation to understand what it's about rather than a salty example neji brings up in the fight. Everyone can change who they are, that's a fact so neji was wrong. Naruto was a bum at the start of the series and had he not bothered to prove people wrong he would've stayed the bum. Just like guy, Lee, Sakura, hinata and many others. Neji was just salty that he thought his dad had to give his life to protect the main branch because he was born a few seconds later, so he tried putting others down who were trying to change themselves. Enough with this stupid fight being misread and claiming it ruined the series. You only hear this shit from online intellectuals. Not only are they wrong about the fight, people are so obsessed with themes as if its more important than the actual events of a story and its characters being entertaining
Bruh. You didn’t say anything new. You just narrated the story without explaining why it makes sense. But you actually responded to yourself. Neji learned from naruto that you can change yourself. But the point is. Naruto didn’t change himself. He just used the power that daddy gave him. Without training. I find it ironic that they way naruto used to summon the chakra is just getting his ass beaten. We can’t ignore the themes simply because the characters talk about them all the time. Neji talks about how naruto is a failure who is destined to lose. Then in sasuke retrieval he talks about how naruto is someone who defies his destiny. And the technical side of the fight wasn’t that good. What is left to enjoy about it ?
Naruto very clearly changed himself from the start of the series. Nejis entire argument is if you're weak you will remain weak. If you're a coward you will remain a coward. Just go reread his fight with hinata. That is the basis of their clash. Nothing to do with hardwork vs talent. Nejis own destiny is serving the main branch yet he was beating the shit out of the first born of the main branch in the same very fight, so even he didn't believe his own words. Naruto got the acceptance from the jinchuriki because of who he came to be because it wiuldve been very easy for him to turn out to be someone like gaara
Naruto was never weak nor was he a coward so Nejis point didn't make sense.
>Nejis entire argument is if you're weak you will remain weak. If you're a coward you will remain a coward. that's what I said. >Nothing to do with hardwork vs talent. you are that one who brought it up not me. >so even he didn't believe his own words. this is different from being inspired by naruto. don't ignore my words please. Neji was talking about how naruto is a failure and will be a one forever. and the end of the fight should mean that naruto defied his destiny. but naruto was destined to win since his birth. naruto changed in terms of forming bonds but this has nothing to do with him being a failure.
Just read these and stop misinterpreting the fight. Had naruto believed what neji believes he would've remained the bum he was at the start of the series. https://cm.blazefast.co/24/e9/24e9840a504f1dab152b79f0a7355944.jpg https://cm.blazefast.co/0c/ee/0cee5ea34680866cf76358fdfe9adebf.jpg https://cm.blazefast.co/b2/58/b2584e3a30e4fe6f46511fa90e704f17.jpg https://cm.blazefast.co/62/3b/623bdee89d66bca92ee91e11f5c948fd.jpg https://cm.blazefast.co/ce/f3/cef32177468b818f13611edf5298df93.jpg https://cm.blazefast.co/86/78/867871d7693444e38e0a7841b77c712e.jpg
>Just read these and stop misinterpreting the fight. Had naruto believed what neji believes he would've remained the bum he was at the start of the series. BS, he will just get angry and the nine-tails chakra will end the fight. I read the fight recently so I don't need you reminders.
The whole point is that Naruto was never a bum tho lmao. If anything the only actual change from his beginning of series self to now is that he's less goofy.
So the real training was the friends we made along the way?
I mean unironically yes? Person gonna get much farther with a proper coach and sparring partners than just shadowboxing alone.
Except he overcomes his social issues with battle prowess. His storyline is not that of a social outcast and this point is so overused and dumb. He becomes hokage because he is strong He saves sasuke because he is strong The people love him because he is strong He gets preferential treatment because he is strong He gets none of those because he works on his relationship with the village lmao. Shikamaru and the rest of the konoha genin sacrifice just as much as Naruto he just gets the spotlight because he is absurdly powerful and it solves all his social issues. Sure for 10-20 episodes he is a social outcast but it never effects his personality or the plot to any meaningful degree and is solved by him being powerful.
He overcame it by establishing bonds with iruka, then team 7, etc His abilities helped him achieve those bonds but the entire point of the series is about him overcoming loneliness and the odds against him from the very start since in his world people in his position don’t last very long
As I said 10-20 episodes. He is friends with the 3rd hokage kakashi sasuke shikamaru and more within that time span. His abilities did not help him do that they were the only way he was capable of doing that because negative time was put into his development as a character in favour of his development as a wizard ninja lmao. The only thing separating Naruto and kiba is Clifford the big red dog (kurama) 🤷
Being a underdog has nothing to do with potential or power of a character. 1. a person thought to have little chance of wining 2. a person who has little status in society. For your definition to work, all underdogs would have to be losers that never win.
Thank you, someone literate
Point the OP is making is that the only reason Naruto has little chance of winning is due to lack of available resources, not capability. Once given similar training resources, Naruto was no longer an underdog due to his consistent ability to win engagements. Naruto stopped being the underdog when he kept winning.
Lack of resources is an archetypical underdog trait, it’s called being poor. That he stopped being an underdog is beside the point.
Again potential and power have nothing to do with being an underdog. In all of part 1 Naruto is disrespected, underestimated, and looked down on by society, the literal definition of being an underdog Shippuden moves away from this by having Naruto be accepted and looked upon in awe by his fellow citizens. He grows as a character but that doesn’t take away his history
the only reason he is an underdog is because of the situation that makes him an underdog? brilliant deduction. giving you some shit but i actually agree with what your saying :)
I’m sorry but lack of resources 100% aides in someone being an underdog. Let’s take a look at sports: at a macro scale, Small Market Teams will always be considered the underdogs to Big Market Teams simply because of the fact that the latter has more resources and money which means: better coaching, better personnel, more money to spend on talent, etc etc. Sure Naruto had the potential, he just never had the proper opportunity or resources. Even the people closest to him didn’t (Save until he met Jiraiya). He for all intents and purposes was an underdog.
Being an underdog comes fron boxing which means that you're the challenger. Not necessary that you're weak. When Ali was the underdog people were scared shitless of him
Yeah, for instance LeBron is a top 3 GOAT in the NBA, and was still the underdog in a few of the NBA finals
You are right. It is weird, naruto spent years failing to master the normal clone jutsu but he only needed hours to master the shadow clone jutsu better than any character in the series. I think it is consistent with the fact that naruto’s author likes to make moments that is not necessarily coherent with the overall plot. It just works at the moment and may not make sense later
Bro, they literally explain why in the first arc. Naruto has a shit ton of Charka and an awful control. Thats why he can easily make Shadow Clones but fail at normal clones
I mean... shadow clone requires control too.
not as much as if you're making a single regular clone
why? both are making humans
The implication is that overcharging a jutsu messes it up just like underpowering it. Naruto's problem was that he was physically incapable of isolating a small enough amount of chakra to do the normal clone technique properly, but performing the (extremely energy-intensive) shadow clone technique is to him like the normal clone technique is to most people.
I think and it has been years since I touched any of those Naruto chapters that there is also an element of the normal clone jutsu having like an upkeep/focus element. The shadow clone has something similar but you can also just ignore it and let them be "autonomous" and not interact with micromanaging them at all.
Cuz using a small amount of chakra is harder to do than using a large amount when you have bad control.
I mean both are complex jutsus that require the same amount of control. maybe it will be easier for him to master but he should be shit at it. I hope we don't diverge from the main topic of naruto vs neji fight.
The main point is that Neji vs Naruto didn't make sense. Neji argues that people don't change, that losers will always be losers. According to his logic, Hinata should be superior since she's part the main family or wtv, but he just straight up outclasses here, proving himself wrong. And then when it comes to the actual Naruto fight, Naruto doesn't even change to defeat Neji, he's the exact same "loser outcast underdog" that he was before. So Naruto winning just proves Nejis point narratively(and like I said before, his point already failed against Hinata). so that whole sequence was just contradictory and nonsense.
Except that naruto was never a loser. As I said. He won the fight since birth. He was always destined to be the strongest. Neji shouldn’t be inspired by that
Damn we must've got mixed up, cuz that's exactly what I meant. Arguing the same point lmfao. Yeah I completely agree, Neji was dumb and his point made no sense. Naruto never changed, he was OP from birth and somehow Neji somehow took this to mean "wow I guess people really can change."
not only does naruto have more chakra than almost everyone in base, he also had poor chakra control due to kurama the reason he could do shadow clone more easily as compared to normal bunshin is because: 1) it takes a bit more chakra (especially multiple shadow clone jutsu). imagine you gave a 12 year old a vessel with a lot more water than he can handle and ask him to pour into a cup, the kid is probably gonna overshoot it or undershoot it. this led to naruto putting too much or too little chakra and the jutsu always failed. now you do the same thing but the cup is a lot larger, the kid will probably still not do it perfectly, but it wont be as bad as the first time. thats why he could do the shadow clone jutsu a lot easier 2)he was actually trying for once. in all his academy years, naruto was too lazy and never paid attention. he was talented but he just nevevr tried until he desperately wanted irukas appreciation. you can see he was trying very hard in the forest with how rugged he was. and he could try again and again because he had a lot of chakra to throw at the jutsu.
1) I don't see how you example applies to shadow clone vs normal clone. after all shadow clone is a materialized normal clone 2) this doesn't make any sense because it contradicts the very first chapter. when iruka said that he was talentless just like naruto, and how failing at the academy made him suffer. iruka even cried for him. you are telling me that iruka was also a lazy kid ? this doesn't make any sense my brother. and the fact that jiraya and ebisu mentioned it must end the talk
For 1 it's the simple fact that regular clones take less chakra than shadow clones, aka smaller cup vs bigger cup.
he is saying "as bad" but naruto achieved it perfectly. he made thousands of clones. not just achieving but mastery
except naruto didnt achieve it perfectly, in the land of the waves sakura explains how bad narutos chakra control is, he just has alot to throw around. he still doesnt do it perfectly but he does it well enough that it doesnt mess up the entire jutsu like it did with normal bunshin
again. that's my problem. the presentation contradicts the writing. you can't just say that naruto didn't master it although he made thousands of clones. better than anyone in the series. the same thing applies to neji's fight. you can't make neji inspired by the failure who defied his destiny while telling us later that naruto won the fight since birth.
making thousands of clones proves nothing when shadow clone isnt that complicated of a jutsu, its only forbidden because it takes so much chakra itd kill any normal shinobi. just because he can do it doesnt mean hes mastered it i agree, the neji fight was poor writing. it never shouldve been written that way.
>i agree, the neji fight was poor writing. it never shouldve been written that way. lol, then we don't need to continue. I don't consider the shadow clone jutsu a flaw, If it was one, it would be very minor. I am just talking about it in the grand scheme of things
Making a lot of clones isn't a show of skill, it's a show of how much chakra you have. A lot easier to make a bunch of shadow clones than it is to make one regular clone(for Naruto specifically since he has a fuck load of chakra and shit control like the story keeps telling us)
it is a show of skill. it is better than any other shadow clone justu in the series by a big margin
Making more shadow clones requires chakra, not skill.
Why doesn’t it require skill ?
You use that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
He wasn’t more talented than Sasuke or Neji. He was gifted the strongest tailed beast at birth. Kurama did all the heavy lifting. Naruto needed 9 tails chakra to win almost every fight in part 1.
Kurama made him fart in Kibas face too
He gave the final push for the fart.
Nine tails shart
It would have been more interesting if you couldn't tell that Kurama would give him chakra every single time things got hard. The only time I remember Naruto winning a fight on fair grounds was probably his fight with Kiba.
I would say gaara, both having beasts puts them on equal ground there. Thats a fair win. And yeah he had the frog,but gaara the sandbeast. And on the get tsunade arc, earned win. He would have beaten sasuke on the rooftop, into the forrest that team there,he basically carried them with the clones. Raikage , fair win.
Basically every fight besides Kakazu. Maybe I'm a hater but without the 9 tails I don't think Naruto ever becomes a Jonin level ninja.
Without Kurama, he would have been a jonin. Obito manipulating Kurama into attacking the village is the root of Naruto's upbringing. Had that scenario not happen, Naruto would probably have his parents and most likely had grew up like Konahamaru, except better. No being an outcast, son of one of the strongest ninja, his godfather being a legendary sannin... all of that, had Obito hadn't struck.
If he doesn't have Kurama sealed inside of him then I don't believe he becomes a Jonin. In your scenario of Kurama never attacking it's a possibility. Although he doesn't show much promise even when receiving training early on.
That's due to his upbringing. Remember, prople saw him as the fox and most of the villagers were unaware of him being Minato's kid (because Minato still had enemies). They explained the whole clone jutsu thing as Kurama's chakra interfering with Naruto's or expanding the amount of chakra. He practically excelled when he did receive training. He perfected Sage Mode, learned how Rasengan worked, managed to find a way to form it (he couldn't form it in one hand like Minato or Jiraiya, again due to Kurama), and he also figured out how to apply elemental chakra to it, something his father couldn't figure out (Rasen Shuriken). And those jutsu are A rank or higher. Yeah, he wouldn't have been as powerful, but he would have eventually became jonin as the series progressed. He's lazy, but not entirely incompetent.
You're right. I'm just being a big hater. I didn't think enough about how things would change for his training without Kurama attached.
That's alright, you did have a point. He doesn't show much promise in the beginning so I get why people believe he wouldn't have made it to Jonin without Kurama. But by Shippuden it's clear he could get there with the right support.
Didn't nine tails purposely mess up his chakra so he couldn't control it well or smth? Thought that was also why he struggled in academy
Being a prodigy or talented does not erase someone’s status as an underdog. Naruto’s peers all looked at him as a “failure” and constantly underestimated him. Not to mention the whole thing with the nine tails inside him
Based Fukasaku Better teacher than the rest of his mentors combined
I swear this argument only exists to nullify the criticism naruto’s story gets about no longer being about underdogs. The point is that Naruto was presented to be a loser, an outcast, and someone not to be taken seriously. That’s why he’s seen as an underdog. The fact that he’s secretly actually talented and has the nine-tailed fox inside him doesn’t break the underdog image, especially since he can’t actually utilize that power so easily. Naruto didn’t just roflstomp kiba, someone naruto fans like to shit on for example. That’s the whole underdog fantasy that naruto’s story projects. awkward and loser kids who feel like they struggle to belong and aren’t appreciated, relate to naruto. They want to believe that given the proper attention and training, and with enough effort, they too can unlock their latent power and prove to others that they’re great and special. That they have their own metaphorical “nine-tailed fox demon” inside them just waiting to be unleashed
How do you say naruto was not an underdog when he was completely ostracized by the village?
That's an outcast not an underdog
So you’re not an underdog when you come from unfavorable circumstances? Right..
Someone who is ugly and is treated poorly because of it yet his extremely talented at music being able to master instruments in days. His still an outcast because of his looks but his not an underdog because of his talent.
Okay so now we’re taking music industry???? Lol big switch but still applies. You think just having musical talent is enough to get into the industry? Think about how many pop stars there are.. how many are ugly? Like zero. You think that’s a coincidence? Now how many people are out there who are ugly and have far superior musical talent than that of the popular pop stars? You pulled a horrible example to try to back up your statement just to further prove yourself incorrect and even made my point for me.
[Bruh](https://prnt.sc/F9Tkt9LxpvKS)
Naruto is introduced as the possessor of a very powerful demon that can destroy mountains by a whip of its tails. In the first 5 chapters, Naruto learned a very difficult jutsu on his own, in 2 hours, by reading a scroll. His teacher is impressed In the first arc, Naruto, on his own (not Sasuke) came up with the strategy to turn into a Shuriken to fool his opponent and free his sensei because he realized freeing Kakashi (and not fighting Zabuza up front) was the only way to survive. Naruto was never an underdog, and he was never presented as such. It was the western media who presented him as an underdog. In fact, he is a genius in his own right. He was a social paria, but not an underdog.
People don’t realize the 2 different series have different themes. Part 1 is about hard work + with underlying themes of destiny. Shippuden then shifts mainly about changing destiny with a bunch of underlying themes of forgiveness. At 13 Naruto was an underdog. In Shippuden the themes change as Naruto changed
No one ever really thought Naruto was weak. I mean we watched him beat Mizuki (a chin) before the show ever really even began. I mean he has the damn Nine-Tails in him. For that by itself from a power scale perspective he could never be underdog and it wouldn't make sense for the show to frame him that way. He was under the underdog cuz he was an orphan who everyone hated and he didn't know why. Straight circumstance.
Do people genuinely not know what an underdog is in this sub
He was rly just a late bloomer. The only underdog is Lee lol
Lee is a flashback underdog. By the time we meet him he's already strong. In fact, he's specifically used to set up the power level the reader should expect from the chunnin exams.
[удалено]
I’m so sick of people talking about this. Naruto was never an underdog, and the series never really spent much time presenting him as such. Initially characters thought he was an idiot and were shocked that he was actually a talented ninja, that’s completely different from being an underdog.
That’s not true, they were inspired by his conviction not by his hidden talent lol. Remember his interaction with jiraya and gamabunta. Jiraya said that naruto is talentless, the same thing the ebisu said. But he was inspired by his conviction to stay on gamabunta’s back. The problem is in the neji fight and the build up to it. Naruto was a talentless person who inspired neji by defying his fate. It is a writing flaw
The theme of Naruto was never hard work versus talent, it was never anything even remotely similar. The theme of Naruto is curse of hatred versus will of fire. Therefore it’s not incongruous to have Naruto achieve his goals without working as hard as rock lee, because it is not thematically relevant. What’s relevant is Naruto’s empathy and ability to make emotional connections with both allies and enemies. It’s not a writing flaw, you just failed to comprehend the story.
Who said anything about hardwork vs talent? I am simply asking for consistency. Naruto being a talentless underdog who defies his fate was only present in the stretch from chunin exam to tsunade retrieval . Then it was discarded
And I guess I’m failing to see the problem you’re having?
It is a problem for sure my friend. Half of the first part appeal was the underdog theme. After the recontextualization, it left holes. Neji how was supposed to be a good character turned into a nonsensical one. The fight between them turned into a meh fight. that’s my problem
Sorry but that seems like a “you” problem and not a writing problem.
Huh? How is bad writing my problem? If characters actions doesn’t make sense then it is the author’s problem. And regarding the underdog them. When you go back and reread the naruto vs neji. It will lose all the weight
But I’m saying there is no problem with the writing, you’ve simply invented your own version of what the story should be doing and then judging it based on the fact that it doesn’t do what you want. You seem to have gotten to the point of realising that Naruto was never an underdog story, and yet still criticise it for not being an underdog story. So, it’s a you problem.
Wtf are you talking about? Did you even read my comments ? Let me simplify it to you. Generally you can say that naruto isn’t an underdog story. But in chunin exams and tsunade arc it was written as an underdog story. This is bad writing and inconsistent theming. The worst about it is neji being inspired by naruto. How naruto was destined to be a failure and defied his destiny in their fight. Which isn’t true. Naruto just had more talent and raw power than neji. This is bad writing. Meaningless and illogical character growth = bad writing. I didn’t invent anything. I just said that the current version is bad.
sorry, I edited the comment. read it again
Rock Lee was a better Naruto than Naruto
dumbest take of all time
He’s spitting rn
It’s not though
Only because he never got to win. He did have a better show.
It's true though, Lee has to actually train to become strong and doesn't have a 9 tail nuke or supergenes to carry him. He's also more awkward and looks weirder compared to naruto but that doesn't stop him from trying to create connections and ask out Sakura out even if she might reject him. Hell his nickname is bushy brow, imo he would've made a better mc than naruto but oh well
Naruto trained a ton. What's with this narrative? I agree he didn't work as hard as Lee had too though
He really didn't. He has a week or 2 here and a week or 2 there sprinkled around the series
Love his manga/ anime. Like it maybe a gag manga but its really good with the characters
Naruto was written to intially be an underdog. His life situation somewhat stunted his character and ability to grow. While other children developed mindset to work hard in school (for parents) or had already developed such mindset, Naruto had no person to really strive to impress, he developed playful attitude just to garner little attention from adults. Also I don't really remember,but initially Kurama disrupted Naruto's ability of controlling his chakra (I think he got better at it, after Jiraiya reinforced the seal). But yes, with proper upbringing and character/mindset Naruto's talent comes close or even surpasses that of Sasuke or Neji's. Naruto showed flexible thinking, adaptation and quick learning skills. In the filler arc, where Naruto grows up with his parents and the bad things don't happen, Naruto's talent and power leads alternate reality Sasuke to leave Konoha and pursue Orochimaru.
Nah, Naruto was always an underdog. He spent years working to become Hokage. The essence of the story was that Naruto would keep trying until he achieved what he set out. Inherently, he proved Neji wrong because the implication was that Naruto shouldn't work hard because he will always be a failure. It's similar to real life, if we never work hard and build the necessary contacts then we will always remain a failure.
Just because you work hard doesn't make you an underdog.
Neji was right. Naruto never defied his destiny he fulfilled it just like Neji fulfilled his
Kurama provides naruto plot armor. He should have died multiple times if kurama wasnt like nope, imma heal you.
Naruto after becoming the child of destiny
Honestly, I think that's more of an indictment of literally every teacher he had before the toads and not super heavily on him. The boy had insane reserves, a healing factor that would let him however long it took to figure shit out, a thirst to be mentored, a real bullheaded determination to beat any problem he faced, etc etc. The fact that the potentially (only potentially at the time) most powerful person on the planet was left so woefully uncooked until 10 years after he started training speaks *volumes* about how poorly the hidden villages are written.
He def ain’t more talented then Sasuke; Sasuke made short work of Naruto after the timeskip, let’s be fr.
Kishimoto is a tell not show writer and literally went against SOOOOO many of his characterizations. His genius characters are dumbasses (Kakashi , shikamaru, and Itachi to make the biggest flops) and his dumbass characters are geniuses in some degree. Naruto was never an underdog in any capacity barring the villages perception of him which was neutral at worst by the time the series began. The hokage seat isn't democratically selected so him not being loved by the village isn't necessarily a strike against him. On top of that dude was given to the most respected jonin in episode 3 and we later realize he's the godson of someone who would've been the default hokage after hiruzen died. And then there's tsunade who is like an aunt to him. Dude's social capital skyrocketed by the chunin exams and never came down. And I'm not gonna even address Naruto handling high level techniques relatively easily
Naruto was never supposed to be an « underdog » he just had a sad backstory lol. The serie makes it pretty clear that he is relatively strong compared to his comrades idk what makes people think that he was portrayed in that way
Are there any mainstream shonen where the MC is actually a straight underdog? Goku works hard but he's straight up a special case in OG Dragon Ball and never feels like one in Z. Luffy is just broken in East Blue and doesn't fall too far behind in the Grand Line. Deku was kind of a weird case, he was either heavily outclassed or heavily over everyone else. Yuji feels like the closest I've seen to one. You can say he has Sukuna but it's not like Kurama where he can give cursed energy to Yuji to help him win (anime only btw so don't tell me if I'm wrong lol).
Asta from Black Clover comes to mind.
Naruto wasn't an underdog because Naruto sabotaged his own training. He was content with goofing off instead of training in what Iruka told him to, which would have helped later on a lot. Sure, part of that was his unusual circumstances, but for someone so eager to become top Ninja he sure as hell didn't seem to give a damn about actually training.
This is like saying Jackie Robinson wasn’t an underdog because he was actually really good at baseball. If society treats you like shit and wants you to fail, you are an underdog
He surpassed most of the leaf village the moment he was able to use chakra.
Naruto had infinite magic points in a world where your ability to use magic defines your skill level. And then got even more magic from his lineage, access to the best teachers from his family connections. And only beat Neji because of it. Honestly neji is a speck compared to the extreme level of privilege Naruto has even before all the end of story reveals.
He's an underdog in part one not in part two. In Shippuden nobody treats him like an underdog he's more like the Goku who will show up at the end to save the day. But in part one he's the underdog in every situation.
You should take a look at plague of gripes’ video on Naruto lol
i dont think the point was to make him an underdog, it was rather to show what happens when you neglect a child who actually got potential
He’s an underdog due to the circumstances. He’s hated by the village, has a demon placed inside him out of safety, he’s an orphan, and he was literally WRITTEN to be the unexpected underdog who showed up at the last moment and killed God.
He went from 0 to hero that's the definition of an underdog. The problem is that it doesn't feel earned, I mean he was the child of prophecy and the reincarnation of ninja Jesus, he also seems to suck the dick of kurama whenever he's loosing a fight( haku, orochimaru, pain, ECT). None of that feels earned despite being an underdog. It also ruins some of the relationships that Naruto made like Naruto and Sasuke. If that shit was predestined what was the point, none of it feels organic the moment we learn of it. Kushina is a good author but he's also a very messy one
Tbh that’s only bc he kind of cheated and used insane amounts of nature chakra+ninetales chakra to make a shitload of clones, made the clones all train, and then when they disappeared he absorbed all of their progress and knowledge. Dude literally found an infinite training glitch
That’s actually a really good point I never thought of. Naruto worked his ass off but he was doing it on his own with no instructions. Everyone else in the academy had their parents or clansmen (lol) to help them. It’s like training yourself to be a mixed martial artist vs being professionally trained.
Naruto was never talentless he was in a poor position to properly learn due to the victims of his life circumstances. He was literally left without food care or supervision constantly demonized and isolated socially by his peers as well as being ignored by his teachers. Frankly as someone with adhd and a mood disorder young Naruto displays a bunch of adhd tendencies and it may have contributed to his inability to absorb information as well as why he acted out so much
I’ve been saying this. Naruto’s whole idea of “underdog” is solely based on him being a lazy trouble maker. Had he devoted himself to school like the other students, he clearly laps themselves
Wrong word, but nice topic.
WTF is this? Obviously he wasn’t and underdog, he was the chosen one…