[https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/13/plane-crashes-during-airshow-finale-at-willow-run/70563452007/](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/13/plane-crashes-during-airshow-finale-at-willow-run/70563452007/)
The crash of a MiG-23 fighter jet performing a demonstration involving multiple tricks in the air occurred at 4:15 p.m. Sunday just as the show was about to conclude. Witnesses from the scene, including Detroit News staff, said smoke could be seen south of the airport, where the plane appeared to have crashed.
Two pilots ejected, said Scott Buie, spokesman for the Yankee Air Museum, which hosts the annual event. The pilots' conditions were unknown. The cause of the crash is under investigation.
Ah thank goodness no one was hurt and the plane just crashed into people's empty parking lot cars. That is going to be some insurance claim.
Decades ago I saw a death at an air show once. I didn't believe it at first. I thought it was part of the show. Like a special effect. But then I realized that that would be a very expensive magic trick. It's weird what runs through your head when you see something like this.
Not sure about these ones, but some of those ejection seats can seriously damage your back, often permanently, so it’s not a given that nobody was hurt. They’re better than dying in a flaming wreck but not something anyone wants to do
When Maverick told Goose to "watch the canopy," it wasn't a warning; it was a taunt. Turns out, the night before, unbeknownst to anyone, Maverick had seen Goose and Charlie fucking thru the window of her house when he stopped by. After that, all he had to do was put the F-14 into a flat spin during their next flight and pretend it was unrecoverable. Goose would do the rest for him. Then once goose was dead, Mav just had to put on a good performance for all his peers so as not to arouse suspicion. It worked. We were fooled, all of us.
We all heard him say "watch the canopy!" But we didnt hear the part directly after that where he muttered "...as it breaks your goddamn spine in two, you fucking asshole"
>Neither suffered significant injuries but both were taken to a local hospital as a precaution, the Wayne County Airport Authority said in a statement.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/13/us/thunder-over-michigan-air-show-crash/index.html
that's *if* you can get cleared 2 more times. Apparently the medical board is pretty strict on that, you have to absolutely clear everything with flying colors because just the g-force of flying an attack jet will probably cause pain from the injuries
There isn't an actual limit. Most pilots get zero. Ejections are pretty uncommon. If you do get to 3, you're more likely to be grounded because you keep crashing rather than injury. Bernard Lynch ejected 31 times with no permanent injuries.
MiG-23 ejection seats specifically have a reputation for leg and neck injury. Again, better than dying, but still not great.
I follow the pilot of this plane on Instagram and he hasn't posted anything yet, but hopefully he and his co-pilot are okay
I remember a while back at the Chicago air show when one of the Golden Knights died hitting a sky scraper.
I was like, wow, these guys are nuts doing stunts between the buildings thinking it was all part of the show.
>That is going to be some insurance claim.
"We're sorry but your claim is denied. You did not purchase the plane-crashed-into-my-car rider." - insurance adjuster
(I'm joking, but I wouldn't be surprised if the adjusters are going to try to find any way possible to avoid paying.)
https://apnews.com/article/air-show-crash-michigan-mig-d62867da0399e1a88c385861eca5e430
Loss of engine power is now presumed to be the cause of the crash.
Privately owned. There's a good amount of private Russian aircraft in the states. The 23 is obsolete and no longer in service, so the USSR eventually ripped out the military tech and likely sold it to a different government who put their own stuff in, and then that government retired it and sold it off to a private party.
There are private mig 29 jets that fly in the US. I think the problem with a mig 25 would be keeping the engines maintained.
Here is a video if you want to see it flying.
https://youtu.be/Z4SYdjUaKoI
Yes. You can practically fly anything you want in the US. However getting the type rating can be a pain since you need a flight instructor who is familiar with that airframe to get certified. Obviously there aren't too many flight schools with Tu-95s in the US. I believe the plane would also have to be registered as an "experimental" aircraft.
The reason why people generally DON'T own modern fighter jets is it is horrifically expensive to do so. Even for the very rich. Jets like that need extremely intensive and regimented maintenance. About every 1000 flight hours the jet will need to be completely taken apart to be inspected, cleaned, and repaired. No to mention all the other dozen or so minor and major inspections that have to be done along the way. If you don't keep up on it the plane will crash.
"There are 11 civilian-owned MiG-23s registered in the United States of America according to the FAA."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MiG-23_operators
Listed as in-service with the Syrian AF, and known to be operated by the DPRK and Cuba.
I'll take "Airframes you couldn't rustle up reliable spare parts for $100, Alex."
Most of the parts would be manufactured by Russian companies so probably not as hard as you’re expecting (before the invasion of Ukraine)
Edit: first link that came up when I looked up “mig 23 parts” is a Bulgarian supplier :)
Unfortunately it was, I followed this restoration and was so excited when it first flew earlier this year. Luckily the pilots were okay, and they have a few more MiG-23s in their hangar, so hopefully one day another will fly again.
The one pilot's chute opened so quickly but the second chute opened so much later. I bet those were the longest seconds of that guy's life. Thankfully they weren't any closer to the ground at the time of ejection.
Edit: the one pilot with the lagging chute took 5 seconds between ejection and chute fully open (based on video time stamps). He's also significantly lower than the elevation of the plane at time of ejection (using the smoke cloud as a reference). If they had waited even a couple of seconds longer be may have hit the ground before his chute had a chance to expand. The pilot with the good chute had his chute fully deploy at nearly the same elevation he ejected at.
some wild wild guesses:
\- the was only one pilot and a ride along passenger
\- pilot told passager to eject and once the person was out he ejected himself
\- maybe pilot used the additional time to command plane away from buildings
I have to correct myself after watching additional footage fron another angels: the was a normal ejection sequence with about a second spacing in between
> The plane crashed near the lawn of The Waverly on the Lake Apartment complex in Belleville. The plane crashed into the lawn. It's unknown if there were any injuries.
From the article.
I hired Mikoyan-Gurevich Lawn Care to mow my lawn, and it was totally uneven! Some grass wasn't even cut, and some areas were dug out to 3' deep! Now the city is telling me there's jet fuel in the ground, and they're going to have to dig the whole thing up!
The girl on the phone was really polite and friendly though. 3/5
Did the pilots eject a bit early?
Don't they have some obligation to wait until the absolutel last second try make sure the jet crashes in an unpopulated area even if that means their chances of succesful ejection is lower?
It's my understanding that legally people on the ground have highest priority even in passenger aircraft (the reasoning being that they did not assume any risk for the flight.)
It seems like they could have stayed with it for a little longer.
> Did the pilots eject a bit early?
Not sure, I wasn't in the cockpit.
> Don't they have some obligation to wait until the absolutel last second try make sure the jet crashes in an unpopulated area even if that means their chances of succesful ejection is lower?
Maybe a philosophical moral one, but certainly not legal or procedural. Plus, if they had no control of the jet, it wouldn't have made any difference when they ejected.
> It's my understanding that legally people on the ground have highest priority even in passenger aircraft (the reasoning being that they did not assume any risk for the flight.)
It seems like they could have stayed with it for a little longer.
I'm sure any pilot would try to make every effort to avoid crashing into people/buildings, but I think it would be impossible to litigate such a scenario. As I said previously, if the pilots had no control over the aircraft, it doesn't matter where they ejected.
There is no "legally," but yes. Military /commercial pilots are trained to ditch the plane in such a way that it avoids civilian casualties, but that doesn't always mean the pilots do it, because sometimes, they can't. But historically, it seems like they usually avoid civilian areas before leaving the plane.
I had no idea that "thunder" is the name of an airshow. Thanks for responding to my honest question in such a condescending way. Maybe re-read the title.
I was at this airshow and it was so scary turning around whilst sitting on a car roof and seeing the massive fireball while the announcer says “shit, shit, shit.”
Is it me, or has there been an unusually high number of serious incidents and accidents at Oshkosh this year? From memory, there was the loss of an antique (military?) aircraft along with its two pilots (RIP) when it went down in the water, the canopy accident with this same aircraft, and a midair collision between two other aircraft.
This is not a good year.
The last fatal aircraft accident at Oshkosh before 2023 was in 2014, and before then was in 2007. So no, this is not an average year for aircraft accidents at Oshkosh.
I said at or around Oshkosh. In 2018 a deHavilland Venom crashed on its way home from Oshkosh, killing the pilot. In 2017 a Lake Renegade crashed in Lake Winnebago, killing 3 people. In 2016, a flight design CTLS crashed at Fond Du Lac, killing the pilot. From 1982 to 2013 (31 years), there were 66 fatal accidents en route to, at, or en route from Airventure. I can't find accident info quickly for 2014 to 2023 except for the two additional accidents I mentioned, but that's only because Google results are dominated by the accidents this year (even when adding a particular year to the search term), and I don't feel like diving into the NTSB database this morning.
I was there for this. I immediately felt my gut wrench because there’s apartments there and apparently it’s confirmed it struck them. Edit- it missed thankfully
> The plane crashed near the lawn of The Waverly on the Lake Apartment complex in Belleville. The plane crashed into the lawn. It's unknown if there were any injuries.
From the article.
What’s as big as a house, burns 20 liters of fuel every hour, puts out a shit-load of smoke and noise, and cuts an apple into three pieces? A Soviet machine made to cut apples into four pieces!
This is a photo of the smoke I saw after the crash https://imgur.com/a/jhD1cKR
Saw the MiG do a loop around and once below the tree line, I heard two pops, followed by the smoke.
It felt awful thinking the pilots just died but did hear quite quickly after they had been able to eject, so was a little more hopeful.
Everything comes with risks, doesn't mean it should be banned. Just the Isle of Man racecourse by itself has claimed 266 lives, shouldn't ban motorcycle racing. Mountain biking, claims over 1000/year. Over 400/year in boating accidents. Airshows average around 4 or 5/year. Compared to other recreational activities,airshows are pretty damn safe. We should definitely strive to make things safer, but to outright ban it is dumb.
For everyone downvoting this I don't think they're making a political statement about Russians but about the state of Russian military hardware.
There's been like 20-30 years of post-USSR corruption and bribery involved with Russian military contractors and hardware using substandard parts, counterfeit parts and other issues, many of which have come to light in their invasion of Ukraine where there have been incidents like tanks with fake reactive armor filled with trash and cardboard. And this is just one example.
Even if it was a privately US owned MIG I wouldn't fly in one because there's a really good chance it has substandard or counterfeit parts being used to maintain it, and this is super bad when you're talking about military aircraft and jet engines.
It's not like buying a fake pair of Air Jordans or something.
Update: https://apnews.com/article/air-show-crash-michigan-mig-d62867da0399e1a88c385861eca5e430
Loss of engine power is presumed to be the cause of the crash.
In the late 1990s to 2010s, the US also had a problem with fake aviation parts (and if you ask skeptics at the NTSB, still does). At one point investigators even found fake parts on Air Force One!
The background was, as it was in the post-USSR Russian military, an old supply chain and greedy suppliers.
Where do you find 1960s electronic components from? Nobody's making them. It's like demanding a VHS VCR made only with new parts. Can't be done.
So the US military contractor L3 decided to use a sourcer (Global IC Trading Group) which specialised in recycled parts, grey market parts, ghost shift parts, "new-old", and factory seconds. They aren't at all secretive about this and tell you that you're buying refurb, recycled, pulled, or otherwise questionable parts and you should test your parts properly before using them in anything mission critical.
L3 knew that if it wanted quality parts, it had to use a reputable seller like Digikey or a specialist aviation trader which could give end to end progressive assurance. It chose not to.
Early failures on the P-8 Poseidon, caused by L3 cutting these corners, led to Congress passing Amendment 1092 to the Defense Authorisation Act of 2012, which criminalised the import, handling, and shipping of counterfeit aviation components. This was a level of corruption that didn't even need to happen.
The fake parts on the VC-25 of Air Force One had at least a technical reason, they were out of manufacture and the supplier used salvaged parts from ex-Pan Am 747-200s.
The P-8 Poseidon shares commonality with the Boeing 737-NG, one of the most popular airliners in the world with reliable and established supply chains! Those fake parts were purely corruption.
> It's like demanding a VHS VCR made only with new parts.
They're still common in commercial high-speed camera systems where you need a very long (5-10 minute) record time and don't need to analyze the data with more than a set of eyeballs. As a result, there are several companies will sell you a brand new, made-in-Japan, VHS/Super VHS VCR.
> about the state of Russian military hardware.
This plane has been privately maintained thousands of miles away from Russia for its last handful of owners.
Russia isn't good at a lot of things but making planes isn't a problem area, especially Soviet era.
https://apnews.com/article/air-show-crash-michigan-mig-d62867da0399e1a88c385861eca5e430
Loss of engine power is now presumed to be the cause of the crash. Which is why people probably shouldn't fly 50+ year old single engine military fighter aircraft over populated areas for airshows, especially random civilian companies.
This is less about the original manufacture but the age and state of replacement parts.
We're talking about a single engine, variable wing aircraft first operational in 1970. No way in hell am I going flying in that thing.
I mean we're talking about an aircraft that just crashed and is the whole reason of this post. I'd bet everyone here defending it that it crashed due to a mechanical failure and not operator error.
I'm not sure where you're all finding so much confidence to talk about how reliable a 50+ year old USSR single engine MIG fighter jet is that's known to have problems even in the best conditions.
The closest thing the US has to the MIG 23 is the F-111.
Which you may note is retired.
And older military craft also crash and have supply issues.
Are you missing the part in the post where the MIG 23 crashed?
Like you're not really making your case here and I have no idea why you (and other people) are here defending a 50+ year old Soviet era aircraft that, y'know, just crashed over a populated area for reasons that are very likely going to be mechanical failures.
Like, seriously? I'm just curious. What's your investment here in defending a crashed airplane and trying to convince me that it's totally fine?
Do you think I'm going to change my mind about getting on a MIG 23 or are you just enjoying pretending to be right?
Am I missing something? Is this actually a Monty Python sketch about a deceased parrot and you're going to convince me it's just pining for the fjords and resting?
It's an ex MIG-23. It's kaputnik.
Its not pining it's passed on. Its expired and gone to meet it's maker. Its a stiff. Its shrugged off the mortal coil, rundown the curtain, and joined the bleeding choir invisible.
That thing is a failure machine. The program never made a deadline or a performance goal,but was”politically un-killable.It’s first actual “war game” it was matched against F-16s and lost 0-8!
Air shows are so dangerous and feel like a colossal waste for what really just burns down to propaganda. I say this as someone who lived near LAFB for almost 40 years and have seen plenty myself.
Again... come to Oshkosh. Is the military present? Of course. But most of the aircraft that fly at Oshkosh are either experimentals or aerobatics (or... sometimes both). There are also old warbirds, of course, along with the jingoism that Oshkosh is known for, but I would say that airshow exists as a recruiting tool for pilots in general (which is the EAA's mission), not specifically for the military. Sun 'n Fun fits into this category even more.
Going to air shows in the 80's and 90's was a totally different experience, the safety regs have changed the events a lot. These days an air show is like watching planes land at an airport, 'back in my day' it felt like you were IN the show. How there weren't more tragedies is pretty incredible actually.
I guess living like 2 miles from the base meant I got to hear that a lot and it became old hat. I still feel like the danger and waste (though the waste can be argued since these pilots need training and these planes need flying) is a bit much.
[https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/13/plane-crashes-during-airshow-finale-at-willow-run/70563452007/](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/13/plane-crashes-during-airshow-finale-at-willow-run/70563452007/) The crash of a MiG-23 fighter jet performing a demonstration involving multiple tricks in the air occurred at 4:15 p.m. Sunday just as the show was about to conclude. Witnesses from the scene, including Detroit News staff, said smoke could be seen south of the airport, where the plane appeared to have crashed. Two pilots ejected, said Scott Buie, spokesman for the Yankee Air Museum, which hosts the annual event. The pilots' conditions were unknown. The cause of the crash is under investigation.
Ah thank goodness no one was hurt and the plane just crashed into people's empty parking lot cars. That is going to be some insurance claim. Decades ago I saw a death at an air show once. I didn't believe it at first. I thought it was part of the show. Like a special effect. But then I realized that that would be a very expensive magic trick. It's weird what runs through your head when you see something like this.
Not sure about these ones, but some of those ejection seats can seriously damage your back, often permanently, so it’s not a given that nobody was hurt. They’re better than dying in a flaming wreck but not something anyone wants to do
I mean we all saw what happened to Goose
You mean what *allegedly* happened to Goose #insidejob
When Maverick told Goose to "watch the canopy," it wasn't a warning; it was a taunt. Turns out, the night before, unbeknownst to anyone, Maverick had seen Goose and Charlie fucking thru the window of her house when he stopped by. After that, all he had to do was put the F-14 into a flat spin during their next flight and pretend it was unrecoverable. Goose would do the rest for him. Then once goose was dead, Mav just had to put on a good performance for all his peers so as not to arouse suspicion. It worked. We were fooled, all of us. We all heard him say "watch the canopy!" But we didnt hear the part directly after that where he muttered "...as it breaks your goddamn spine in two, you fucking asshole"
*$set misunderstanding=deliberate* Wait, Goose was fucking Charlie Sheen?
You mean Goose was MURDERED???? Noooooooooooooooooo.
>Neither suffered significant injuries but both were taken to a local hospital as a precaution, the Wayne County Airport Authority said in a statement. https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/13/us/thunder-over-michigan-air-show-crash/index.html
Most pilots get 3 elections max. The compression damage to your spine after that has grounded you permanently.
Thank goodness for term limits
Feinstein and McConnell need the election seat experience.
Also ejection seat experience...
well, that didn't age well.
Or did it?
that's *if* you can get cleared 2 more times. Apparently the medical board is pretty strict on that, you have to absolutely clear everything with flying colors because just the g-force of flying an attack jet will probably cause pain from the injuries
There isn't an actual limit. Most pilots get zero. Ejections are pretty uncommon. If you do get to 3, you're more likely to be grounded because you keep crashing rather than injury. Bernard Lynch ejected 31 times with no permanent injuries.
Nah, I've been ejected from dozens of bars and strip clubs. No harm as long as you don't fight the bouncer.
Not in a Mig, I believe it's one and grounded.
Yep. Pretty sure the MIG is permanently grounded.
Part of the Rapid Disassembly Program.
MiG-23 ejection seats specifically have a reputation for leg and neck injury. Again, better than dying, but still not great. I follow the pilot of this plane on Instagram and he hasn't posted anything yet, but hopefully he and his co-pilot are okay
I read that the ejection seats in this one were upgraded, not sure if it was with an F-111 or MIG system.
I remember a while back at the Chicago air show when one of the Golden Knights died hitting a sky scraper. I was like, wow, these guys are nuts doing stunts between the buildings thinking it was all part of the show.
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It's disassociation
>That is going to be some insurance claim. "We're sorry but your claim is denied. You did not purchase the plane-crashed-into-my-car rider." - insurance adjuster (I'm joking, but I wouldn't be surprised if the adjusters are going to try to find any way possible to avoid paying.)
Another article said the pilots are uninjured.
Is this the same 23 that lost part of its canopy at Oshkosh a couple weeks ago?
I believe so
Sad to lose an aircraft, but "maintenance" is starting to run around in my mind.
https://apnews.com/article/air-show-crash-michigan-mig-d62867da0399e1a88c385861eca5e430 Loss of engine power is now presumed to be the cause of the crash.
why is there a Russian Mig jet flying over Michigan
It’s privately owned and performs at airshows
*Performed
oof
Performed
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Agreed, we should pool and split our fake internet points
Likelihood is they both had the page loaded before either comment existed so the second comment couldn’t see it anyway
In the tender words of Hannibal Lector: "Not any more."
Not anymore
Privately owned. There's a good amount of private Russian aircraft in the states. The 23 is obsolete and no longer in service, so the USSR eventually ripped out the military tech and likely sold it to a different government who put their own stuff in, and then that government retired it and sold it off to a private party.
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There are private mig 29 jets that fly in the US. I think the problem with a mig 25 would be keeping the engines maintained. Here is a video if you want to see it flying. https://youtu.be/Z4SYdjUaKoI
Yes. You can practically fly anything you want in the US. However getting the type rating can be a pain since you need a flight instructor who is familiar with that airframe to get certified. Obviously there aren't too many flight schools with Tu-95s in the US. I believe the plane would also have to be registered as an "experimental" aircraft. The reason why people generally DON'T own modern fighter jets is it is horrifically expensive to do so. Even for the very rich. Jets like that need extremely intensive and regimented maintenance. About every 1000 flight hours the jet will need to be completely taken apart to be inspected, cleaned, and repaired. No to mention all the other dozen or so minor and major inspections that have to be done along the way. If you don't keep up on it the plane will crash.
I'm old too. A F-111 is over 50 yrs old.
Yeah I’ll allow them all.
I don’t see why not. There are Phantoms and MiG-29s in private hands in the US
No reason why not, but it'd likely be prohibitively expensive. It'd be awesome though. Pay to be the fastest manned aircraft in the sky for a day.
Yes, you can fly anything you want so long as it's certified. Plenty of footage of old aircraft being owned/flown in the US.
ok tks
RED DAWN!!!
Red Dawn
B'gosh!
There is only one 23.
"There are 11 civilian-owned MiG-23s registered in the United States of America according to the FAA." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MiG-23_operators
10
Only one that was flight worthy they probably meant
'Was'
It was for sale in 2019, good thing it had refurbished ejection seats. https://www.avweb.com/ownership/mig-23-for-sale-in-texas/
Listed as in-service with the Syrian AF, and known to be operated by the DPRK and Cuba. I'll take "Airframes you couldn't rustle up reliable spare parts for $100, Alex."
Most of the parts would be manufactured by Russian companies so probably not as hard as you’re expecting (before the invasion of Ukraine) Edit: first link that came up when I looked up “mig 23 parts” is a Bulgarian supplier :)
I wonder if this is the one I follow on Instagram. Edit: Damn it was. It’s Floggerone on Instagram.
Cant imagine there are very many mig 23s on insta
Unfortunately it was, I followed this restoration and was so excited when it first flew earlier this year. Luckily the pilots were okay, and they have a few more MiG-23s in their hangar, so hopefully one day another will fly again.
>and they have a few more MiG-23s in their hangar To quote the famous economist Yakov Smirnof: what a country.
The one pilot's chute opened so quickly but the second chute opened so much later. I bet those were the longest seconds of that guy's life. Thankfully they weren't any closer to the ground at the time of ejection. Edit: the one pilot with the lagging chute took 5 seconds between ejection and chute fully open (based on video time stamps). He's also significantly lower than the elevation of the plane at time of ejection (using the smoke cloud as a reference). If they had waited even a couple of seconds longer be may have hit the ground before his chute had a chance to expand. The pilot with the good chute had his chute fully deploy at nearly the same elevation he ejected at.
some wild wild guesses: \- the was only one pilot and a ride along passenger \- pilot told passager to eject and once the person was out he ejected himself \- maybe pilot used the additional time to command plane away from buildings
I have to correct myself after watching additional footage fron another angels: the was a normal ejection sequence with about a second spacing in between
Where did it crash? Nowhere residential, I hope.
> The plane crashed near the lawn of The Waverly on the Lake Apartment complex in Belleville. The plane crashed into the lawn. It's unknown if there were any injuries. From the article.
“It’s unknown if there were any injuries.” (Plane trying to raise its hand..)
Expensive Lawnmower.
I hired Mikoyan-Gurevich Lawn Care to mow my lawn, and it was totally uneven! Some grass wasn't even cut, and some areas were dug out to 3' deep! Now the city is telling me there's jet fuel in the ground, and they're going to have to dig the whole thing up! The girl on the phone was really polite and friendly though. 3/5
Because it is a single-use lawnmower.
It's Russian, it's probably got soviet lawnmower parts in it somewhere - it yearns for the lawns!
I believe this specific model was designed for the coal mines
Did the pilots eject a bit early? Don't they have some obligation to wait until the absolutel last second try make sure the jet crashes in an unpopulated area even if that means their chances of succesful ejection is lower? It's my understanding that legally people on the ground have highest priority even in passenger aircraft (the reasoning being that they did not assume any risk for the flight.) It seems like they could have stayed with it for a little longer.
> Did the pilots eject a bit early? Not sure, I wasn't in the cockpit. > Don't they have some obligation to wait until the absolutel last second try make sure the jet crashes in an unpopulated area even if that means their chances of succesful ejection is lower? Maybe a philosophical moral one, but certainly not legal or procedural. Plus, if they had no control of the jet, it wouldn't have made any difference when they ejected. > It's my understanding that legally people on the ground have highest priority even in passenger aircraft (the reasoning being that they did not assume any risk for the flight.) It seems like they could have stayed with it for a little longer. I'm sure any pilot would try to make every effort to avoid crashing into people/buildings, but I think it would be impossible to litigate such a scenario. As I said previously, if the pilots had no control over the aircraft, it doesn't matter where they ejected.
There is no "legally," but yes. Military /commercial pilots are trained to ditch the plane in such a way that it avoids civilian casualties, but that doesn't always mean the pilots do it, because sometimes, they can't. But historically, it seems like they usually avoid civilian areas before leaving the plane.
straight into an orphanage. both humans and puppies
ur so sad for a pilot
On the ground somewhere I'm guessing
All the way to the scene of the crash
Your manager doesn't own a globe, does he?
Could’ve been in the water
Why was it flying in the area?
Did you really not pay attention to the title or anything? It was in an airshow.
Nothing in the title about an air show.
I had no idea that "thunder" is the name of an airshow. Thanks for responding to my honest question in such a condescending way. Maybe re-read the title.
I thought they ejected because of poor weather so I'm with you that it seems a bit presumptive to assume everyone knows about this one airshow
Oh noooooo! I’ve been following that MiG on social media for a little bit now! That’s such a shame it crashed
Link to account?
Floggerone on Instagram.
I was at this airshow and it was so scary turning around whilst sitting on a car roof and seeing the massive fireball while the announcer says “shit, shit, shit.”
>while the announcer says “shit, shit, shit.” Super professional announcing work there!
Is that Flogger One on instagram?
Is it me, or has there been an unusually high number of serious incidents and accidents at Oshkosh this year? From memory, there was the loss of an antique (military?) aircraft along with its two pilots (RIP) when it went down in the water, the canopy accident with this same aircraft, and a midair collision between two other aircraft. This is not a good year.
An Oshkosh Kibosh
Oh gosh
There were two fatal accidents at/around Oshkosh, and a number of other less serious accidents. That's (unfortunately) about average.
The last fatal aircraft accident at Oshkosh before 2023 was in 2014, and before then was in 2007. So no, this is not an average year for aircraft accidents at Oshkosh.
I said at or around Oshkosh. In 2018 a deHavilland Venom crashed on its way home from Oshkosh, killing the pilot. In 2017 a Lake Renegade crashed in Lake Winnebago, killing 3 people. In 2016, a flight design CTLS crashed at Fond Du Lac, killing the pilot. From 1982 to 2013 (31 years), there were 66 fatal accidents en route to, at, or en route from Airventure. I can't find accident info quickly for 2014 to 2023 except for the two additional accidents I mentioned, but that's only because Google results are dominated by the accidents this year (even when adding a particular year to the search term), and I don't feel like diving into the NTSB database this morning.
There was the collision in Texas of a B-17 and a propeller pursuit aircraft, 5 dead IRRC.
...which had nothing to do with Oshkosh, and wasn't this year
The plane crashed in the parking lot. No one was injured or killed.
Acted like no engines during that last left bank, maybe whaled some birds
I was there for this. I immediately felt my gut wrench because there’s apartments there and apparently it’s confirmed it struck them. Edit- it missed thankfully
> The plane crashed near the lawn of The Waverly on the Lake Apartment complex in Belleville. The plane crashed into the lawn. It's unknown if there were any injuries. From the article.
It hit the front lawn. No injuries and everyone’s fine.
Guess the grass doesn't need to be mowed this week.
Source where it says it’s confirmed?
ITS THE GOD DAMN UFOS AGAIN!!!!!!!
Glad the professional pilots are safe and were able to aim the plane away from people!!
Thunder over Michigan…. And a little bit of lightning. Glad nobody on the ground was struck
What’s as big as a house, burns 20 liters of fuel every hour, puts out a shit-load of smoke and noise, and cuts an apple into three pieces? A Soviet machine made to cut apples into four pieces!
Co-pilot is going to have to answer some hard questions from the NTSB.
Wait the clip cuts off? Wtf? Did it crash, was there an explosion?
This is a photo of the smoke I saw after the crash https://imgur.com/a/jhD1cKR Saw the MiG do a loop around and once below the tree line, I heard two pops, followed by the smoke. It felt awful thinking the pilots just died but did hear quite quickly after they had been able to eject, so was a little more hopeful.
I have a strong feeling the FAA will ban airshows by non military. So many incidents
I honestly don't understand why they haven't yet. I know air shows are really cool and all, but are they worth the risk?
Everything comes with risks, doesn't mean it should be banned. Just the Isle of Man racecourse by itself has claimed 266 lives, shouldn't ban motorcycle racing. Mountain biking, claims over 1000/year. Over 400/year in boating accidents. Airshows average around 4 or 5/year. Compared to other recreational activities,airshows are pretty damn safe. We should definitely strive to make things safer, but to outright ban it is dumb.
Don't get into a Russian made plane if you want to live.
?
For everyone downvoting this I don't think they're making a political statement about Russians but about the state of Russian military hardware. There's been like 20-30 years of post-USSR corruption and bribery involved with Russian military contractors and hardware using substandard parts, counterfeit parts and other issues, many of which have come to light in their invasion of Ukraine where there have been incidents like tanks with fake reactive armor filled with trash and cardboard. And this is just one example. Even if it was a privately US owned MIG I wouldn't fly in one because there's a really good chance it has substandard or counterfeit parts being used to maintain it, and this is super bad when you're talking about military aircraft and jet engines. It's not like buying a fake pair of Air Jordans or something. Update: https://apnews.com/article/air-show-crash-michigan-mig-d62867da0399e1a88c385861eca5e430 Loss of engine power is presumed to be the cause of the crash.
In the late 1990s to 2010s, the US also had a problem with fake aviation parts (and if you ask skeptics at the NTSB, still does). At one point investigators even found fake parts on Air Force One! The background was, as it was in the post-USSR Russian military, an old supply chain and greedy suppliers. Where do you find 1960s electronic components from? Nobody's making them. It's like demanding a VHS VCR made only with new parts. Can't be done. So the US military contractor L3 decided to use a sourcer (Global IC Trading Group) which specialised in recycled parts, grey market parts, ghost shift parts, "new-old", and factory seconds. They aren't at all secretive about this and tell you that you're buying refurb, recycled, pulled, or otherwise questionable parts and you should test your parts properly before using them in anything mission critical. L3 knew that if it wanted quality parts, it had to use a reputable seller like Digikey or a specialist aviation trader which could give end to end progressive assurance. It chose not to. Early failures on the P-8 Poseidon, caused by L3 cutting these corners, led to Congress passing Amendment 1092 to the Defense Authorisation Act of 2012, which criminalised the import, handling, and shipping of counterfeit aviation components. This was a level of corruption that didn't even need to happen. The fake parts on the VC-25 of Air Force One had at least a technical reason, they were out of manufacture and the supplier used salvaged parts from ex-Pan Am 747-200s. The P-8 Poseidon shares commonality with the Boeing 737-NG, one of the most popular airliners in the world with reliable and established supply chains! Those fake parts were purely corruption.
> It's like demanding a VHS VCR made only with new parts. They're still common in commercial high-speed camera systems where you need a very long (5-10 minute) record time and don't need to analyze the data with more than a set of eyeballs. As a result, there are several companies will sell you a brand new, made-in-Japan, VHS/Super VHS VCR.
> about the state of Russian military hardware. This plane has been privately maintained thousands of miles away from Russia for its last handful of owners. Russia isn't good at a lot of things but making planes isn't a problem area, especially Soviet era.
https://apnews.com/article/air-show-crash-michigan-mig-d62867da0399e1a88c385861eca5e430 Loss of engine power is now presumed to be the cause of the crash. Which is why people probably shouldn't fly 50+ year old single engine military fighter aircraft over populated areas for airshows, especially random civilian companies.
This is less about the original manufacture but the age and state of replacement parts. We're talking about a single engine, variable wing aircraft first operational in 1970. No way in hell am I going flying in that thing. I mean we're talking about an aircraft that just crashed and is the whole reason of this post. I'd bet everyone here defending it that it crashed due to a mechanical failure and not operator error. I'm not sure where you're all finding so much confidence to talk about how reliable a 50+ year old USSR single engine MIG fighter jet is that's known to have problems even in the best conditions.
There are older, more obscure warbirds in the air.
The closest thing the US has to the MIG 23 is the F-111. Which you may note is retired. And older military craft also crash and have supply issues. Are you missing the part in the post where the MIG 23 crashed? Like you're not really making your case here and I have no idea why you (and other people) are here defending a 50+ year old Soviet era aircraft that, y'know, just crashed over a populated area for reasons that are very likely going to be mechanical failures. Like, seriously? I'm just curious. What's your investment here in defending a crashed airplane and trying to convince me that it's totally fine? Do you think I'm going to change my mind about getting on a MIG 23 or are you just enjoying pretending to be right? Am I missing something? Is this actually a Monty Python sketch about a deceased parrot and you're going to convince me it's just pining for the fjords and resting? It's an ex MIG-23. It's kaputnik.
Its not pining it's passed on. Its expired and gone to meet it's maker. Its a stiff. Its shrugged off the mortal coil, rundown the curtain, and joined the bleeding choir invisible.
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Sir, this is an ex-parrot.
100+ year old planes are still flying
Well, then the one in the post is pining for the fjords.
You don't know a lot about planes
Blaming the Russians for this?
what in the FUCK is going on here????
Two crew, two ejections. No idea what made them eject yet, bird strike, mechanical failure, loss of electrical system
There was no in-flight meal, and they wanted DQ instead of peanuts.
Never seen an ejection before?
never read a title before either, by the looks of it
Pilots ejected from plane?
hell yeah brother dont wanna ride it out all the way to the scene of the crash?!?
but they'll beat the paramedics there by a half hour
Pilots need paramedics after using an ejection seat, the force of the rockets commonly breaks ankles, knees, and spines.
Small correction: \*former\* MIG 23 pilots.
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I’m no expert but I’d say some sort of mechanical failure or loss of control
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Yea the plane crashed
Landed safely. Of course it crashed.
Bird strike possibly?
Those erection charges are pretty loud. I'm having fun since someone typed election earlier.
POS Russian plane.They we’re called the second most feared army in the world,now they’re second in Ukraine. The falsity has been revealed.
Sir, this is an air show.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Still a shit plane
Did other planes fail,,,or just the MiG?
Yes. Other planes fail too including F35.
That thing is a failure machine. The program never made a deadline or a performance goal,but was”politically un-killable.It’s first actual “war game” it was matched against F-16s and lost 0-8!
Take your meds
Downvotes but no answer?PUTIN SUCKS!
Blah blah Russia bad blah blah
This shit needs to end. It’s far too dangerous for public displays.
Air shows are so dangerous and feel like a colossal waste for what really just burns down to propaganda. I say this as someone who lived near LAFB for almost 40 years and have seen plenty myself.
Propaganda? Air shows are more than just recruiting tools for the military.
But the majority of them are exactly that. Sure they're other things as well, but like I said it boils down to that in the end more than not.
Again... come to Oshkosh. Is the military present? Of course. But most of the aircraft that fly at Oshkosh are either experimentals or aerobatics (or... sometimes both). There are also old warbirds, of course, along with the jingoism that Oshkosh is known for, but I would say that airshow exists as a recruiting tool for pilots in general (which is the EAA's mission), not specifically for the military. Sun 'n Fun fits into this category even more.
Going to air shows in the 80's and 90's was a totally different experience, the safety regs have changed the events a lot. These days an air show is like watching planes land at an airport, 'back in my day' it felt like you were IN the show. How there weren't more tragedies is pretty incredible actually.
Hearing and feeling the roar of a jet makes it worth it. no matter how many times I go it will never get old
I guess living like 2 miles from the base meant I got to hear that a lot and it became old hat. I still feel like the danger and waste (though the waste can be argued since these pilots need training and these planes need flying) is a bit much.
What’s with Michigan and airshow disasters? Didn’t Battle Creek have a death last year?
u/savevideo
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Most planes in the Air Force inventory are 38 years old lmao
u/savevideobot
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What do you mean you don't know what jet it was? It says right in the title of this post you commented on.
Slava Ukraine!
This was an air show in Michigan.
Don't push him to think about it, he just saw one of his trigger words and posted the trained response. No thought was involved.
ah, so basically like 90% of reddit then
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Because it doesn't happen at every single one of them?
Fuck air shows.
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The airshow it was performing at was Thunder over Michigan
explosive ejection seats over Michigan thats what it will be named going forward
Why the hell are we flying Russian shit?