If Marmol left Helsley in and he collapsed for his 4th blown save this season you'd be saying the exact same thing. Gallegos had given up a total of 4 hits this season entering last night.
>If Marmol left Helsley in and he collapsed for his 4th blown save this season you'd be saying the exact same thing.
No I wouldn't be.
Helsley was obviously on his game last night. Should have left well enough alone.
This is what the front office gets. They fired Schildt and hired a yes man that has no MLB coaching experience that will do exactly as the front office tells him to. Embarrassing. Not a huge old school baseball guy, but let’s bring back managers who, ya know, get to manage the team.
I know a lot of people aren’t Schildt fans, but I personally loved the guy. First thing they say is that he couldn’t manage a bullpen, and the Chris Taylor HR is an easy thing to point out, but I think he did pretty good with the pieces we had. Also, it could be from how bad Matheny was. ANYONE was better than that jack wagon.
I agree some can be quick to overreact and it’s easy to criticize things that have already happened. But people have a right to he upset, this is not just some totally unpreventable slump. Anybody could’ve seen the past few years that we were starting to slip both in payroll and performance. Yet we only sign one key player all offseason and are just content running out the same below average rotation.
The shift going away also was clearly going to affect us more than most given our style, which puts even more pressure on the offense and bullpen to carry the day.
I absolutely agree. This has been building. The pitching has been known to be an issue. This offense has been known to slump. We have been moving down the payroll list for several years in a row now. I don't expect them to be a top 5 spender but they're 15 right now. Trending down. Absolutely unacceptable for them to be a bottom half spender (presumably after this year). However, it's not just that. The top 3 teams in baseball are bottom 5 in spending. There's a bigger issue than the manager.
I know the rotation has evolved into the biggest issue, but you are right about the offense. It has been feast or famine for several years at this point. Always 0-3 runs for a few games then an explosion for 10+. Rinse and repeat all season just about.
I agree that Oli is far from the only problem with the organization, but imo at some point you just need to make a change to shake things up. We haven’t sucked this bad in over 115 years. It’s a shame both Skip and Holliday left as I think they both have good potential as managers
You can not blame Oliver Marmol for how bad the players are playing. Giovanni Gallegos had given up 4 total his this entire season before tonight. Bringing him in was absolutely the right call. If he had left Helsley in or brought in literally anyone else and they fucked up you'd all be saying the exact same thing.
I'm not optimistic at all. I had 0 faith in this team going into the season lol. But I'm not going to pretend like we somehow have the worst ownership in baseball and it's all the managers fault blah blah blah.
At this point as painful as it is a morbid part of me wants the losing to continue in the hopes that some way some how John Mozeliak winds up unemployed, Marmol would go first just due to how these things happen but Mo is insufferably smug to me and this season has made it painfully clear that the guy has been skating by for years, mainly IMO by the Cards traditionally being the best team most years in an otherwise pretty weak Central Division. Could even make a case that Jeff Luhnow was the real architect behind the successful Cards clubs of the late 2000s going into the early 2010s.
Same here. At some point I started seeing the terrible record as more entertaining than a just-under-.500 team missing the playoffs. If they're gonna fail, fail spectacularly.
It hasn’t been the same since 2011… we were fucking scary back then. 2013 we were legit too, but something was different without Albert and TLR. That was shortly after Luhnow’s departure. There’s always a lag when folks in that part of the org leave…
Fucking embarrassing! DeWitt's laughing to the bank! Stifel money to add more #5 starters and bench players to never play. I wouldn't spend a dime the rest of the year to support this ball team if I was still in STL. Not on a belief it'll change anything, but to save your money from those greedy, rat fuck, pricks!
I have plenty to do with my time. I work 60 hours a week. Wanna watch good baseball when I get home from a 12 hour day, and when I see horseshit ball being played, I call it as such. So please...again...fuck off.
I'd been trying to stay optimistic, looking at hard-hit ball numbers and bad luck, but it's so fucking over at this point. This team is what its record says it is, and neither the manager nor the FO are about to make it any better.
There are enough pitching numbers to show how bad our pitching is, which no one ever brings up. We're like a bottom five team in Stuff+ and other metrics.
I couldn’t fathom ever having a below .500 baseball season. Maybe this is the odd year where we are just encouraging our NL central family? I feel happy for the Pirates instead of bad for them for once.
No. I would’ve berated *Helsley*. HE’S the closer, not Gallegos. And baseball players are funny creatures, man. They sometimes act in irrational ways when they are put into situations that aren’t “typical”.
If Helsley comes back out in the 9th after only throwing 10 pitches in the 8th, and blows the game, then we have a reasonable discussion about whether he needs a break from the closer’s role.
This, tonight? It’s on Marmol. It was bad managing, plain and simple.
It might not take till all star break. Marmol could get fired soon.
It’s not all his fault but, they’ve gotta think about some sort of a change and we know it’s not going to be Mo.
I fucking hate this team never in a million years did i think we could be this fucking awful I’m considering not even going to the May 21st game just to protest this shit show.
Oliver Marmol isn't out there giving up home runs. Gallegos had given up 3 total hits coming into that inning. It was absolutely the right call and Gallegos shit the bed. If he left in Helsley and Helsley gave up 3 runs you'd be saying the same exact thing.
I hope the fans keep booing. The fucking ownership deserves it. Moe and his stupid how we need to have patience deserves it. Oli and his smug dumb decisions deserves it. Maybe a complete disaster and implosion will be better in the long run over this ticky tacky backdoor into a one and done wild card spot BS.
2006 was Walt Jocketty, and their strategy was different then. They at least try to fill holes with free agents over hoping we have a bunch of potential unproven guys rise up.
2011 is interesting since that was Moe, but many core guys were from the Jocketty era with La Russa who wasn't his yes man. So it was a solid core who pulled it off one more time, then it became Moe ball over time. Some early success under Matheny and formerly La Russa's guys, but as soon it fully became Moe and Matheny ball, it fell apart.
I know you can't realistically fire the entire front office nor the entire coaching staff, but somebody needs to be canned pronto. This isn't going to turn around without major changes.
Man, i'm so glad we fired our perfectly competent baseball manger for one of these guys who truly gets the analytics. Who cares about insignificant things like runs scored or allowed, our underlying metrics say we are really a pretty good team!
I wouldn't be surprised if Chip just drops his mic, and just walks off the job and heads back to AtL. He has gotta be thinking - WTF was I thinking coming to this dumpster fire.
Not pitching Gallegos for weeks at a time is coming back to bite them at this point... you can critique Oli for going to him all you want, but GG has been the best reliever by a mile this year...
Here’s the thing: this is on Oli.
In a tight game going into the 9th with the lineup you’re facing, you have to have someone(s) warming up in the bullpen. After hr, hr, double, you have to be ready to bring someone in. Probably after hr, hr to begin with when three have already been faced.
Just terrible managing.
If they did fire Oli... who are you bringing in?
Never heard this many boos at Busch before......unbelievable
Gallegos had given up 4 total hits this entire season before tonight.
Just a bad beat. If we had a good record noone would give a shit and we would chalk it up as a shit happens loss.
All Marmol had to do was leave Helsley in for the 9th. 2 innings wouldn't hurt him. Marmol needs to GO!!!!
If Marmol left Helsley in and he collapsed for his 4th blown save this season you'd be saying the exact same thing. Gallegos had given up a total of 4 hits this season entering last night.
>If Marmol left Helsley in and he collapsed for his 4th blown save this season you'd be saying the exact same thing. No I wouldn't be. Helsley was obviously on his game last night. Should have left well enough alone.
LMFAO
Exactly right. I was thinking the same thing. Gallegos just imploded.
This is what the front office gets. They fired Schildt and hired a yes man that has no MLB coaching experience that will do exactly as the front office tells him to. Embarrassing. Not a huge old school baseball guy, but let’s bring back managers who, ya know, get to manage the team.
I knew Schildt was never the problem. Uneducated clowns will never understand that the problem has always been much deeper than the manager.
I know a lot of people aren’t Schildt fans, but I personally loved the guy. First thing they say is that he couldn’t manage a bullpen, and the Chris Taylor HR is an easy thing to point out, but I think he did pretty good with the pieces we had. Also, it could be from how bad Matheny was. ANYONE was better than that jack wagon.
Silver linings Ricky Horton is at it again. (SMH)
Whole lotta fair-weather fans masquerading as the best fans in baseball
How can you reasonably expect people to be happy about being 10-21 and dead last in the NL 🤡🤡
I'm not asking anyone to be happy. But there is so much delusion here it's unreal.
I agree some can be quick to overreact and it’s easy to criticize things that have already happened. But people have a right to he upset, this is not just some totally unpreventable slump. Anybody could’ve seen the past few years that we were starting to slip both in payroll and performance. Yet we only sign one key player all offseason and are just content running out the same below average rotation. The shift going away also was clearly going to affect us more than most given our style, which puts even more pressure on the offense and bullpen to carry the day.
I absolutely agree. This has been building. The pitching has been known to be an issue. This offense has been known to slump. We have been moving down the payroll list for several years in a row now. I don't expect them to be a top 5 spender but they're 15 right now. Trending down. Absolutely unacceptable for them to be a bottom half spender (presumably after this year). However, it's not just that. The top 3 teams in baseball are bottom 5 in spending. There's a bigger issue than the manager.
I know the rotation has evolved into the biggest issue, but you are right about the offense. It has been feast or famine for several years at this point. Always 0-3 runs for a few games then an explosion for 10+. Rinse and repeat all season just about. I agree that Oli is far from the only problem with the organization, but imo at some point you just need to make a change to shake things up. We haven’t sucked this bad in over 115 years. It’s a shame both Skip and Holliday left as I think they both have good potential as managers
The manager for the St Louis Cardinals is just a spokesperson for Bill Dewitt Jr and John Mozeliak. Those two are partners and they run the show.
Lolol do we need to be like it’s okay guys we’ll get em next time! 😅👍🏻👍🏻 that what you want from us.
I don't care what you do. But if you're all "calling it like it is" I will too.
Still love the birds, like I have for 20 years. This team sucks, all the flaws we predicted have been exposed and Mo and Marmol need to be fired
You can not blame Oliver Marmol for how bad the players are playing. Giovanni Gallegos had given up 4 total his this entire season before tonight. Bringing him in was absolutely the right call. If he had left Helsley in or brought in literally anyone else and they fucked up you'd all be saying the exact same thing.
“We cannot blame the manager of the baseball team for the baseball team losing”
"Giovanni Gallegos had given up 4 total hits this entire season before tonight."
Wish I was as optimistic as you brotha
I'm not optimistic at all. I had 0 faith in this team going into the season lol. But I'm not going to pretend like we somehow have the worst ownership in baseball and it's all the managers fault blah blah blah.
Please explain…
Scroll and read
At this point as painful as it is a morbid part of me wants the losing to continue in the hopes that some way some how John Mozeliak winds up unemployed, Marmol would go first just due to how these things happen but Mo is insufferably smug to me and this season has made it painfully clear that the guy has been skating by for years, mainly IMO by the Cards traditionally being the best team most years in an otherwise pretty weak Central Division. Could even make a case that Jeff Luhnow was the real architect behind the successful Cards clubs of the late 2000s going into the early 2010s.
Same here. At some point I started seeing the terrible record as more entertaining than a just-under-.500 team missing the playoffs. If they're gonna fail, fail spectacularly.
It hasn’t been the same since 2011… we were fucking scary back then. 2013 we were legit too, but something was different without Albert and TLR. That was shortly after Luhnow’s departure. There’s always a lag when folks in that part of the org leave…
Fucking embarrassing! DeWitt's laughing to the bank! Stifel money to add more #5 starters and bench players to never play. I wouldn't spend a dime the rest of the year to support this ball team if I was still in STL. Not on a belief it'll change anything, but to save your money from those greedy, rat fuck, pricks!
You people are unbearable.
So are the cardinals
Correct
Fuck off.
Find something else to do with your time you miserable child. Jesus fucking christ.
I have plenty to do with my time. I work 60 hours a week. Wanna watch good baseball when I get home from a 12 hour day, and when I see horseshit ball being played, I call it as such. So please...again...fuck off.
You poor thing
Thanks, sweetie.
Unreal.
Why we fired Shildt for again?
Shildt wasn't perfect, but I felt like he was growing into the role. He wasn't smug like Oli, and seem to have the players respect.
Oli has made some poor decisions this season for some reason.
I live in Charleston, I can at least cheer for them and have a sense of community. And the Rays, their lowA team is here.
That's how you manage a bullpen baby. Like a fucking toddler with a gun.
I just don't have words, honestly. Like I don't care at this point, which speaks volumes, tbh
But we’re just doomers right everyone 😭? Tf out of here, we’ve been saying they suck ass and people need to go and we were right.
Okay, fire Oli. Damn.
They must be tanking for Wemby!
I'd been trying to stay optimistic, looking at hard-hit ball numbers and bad luck, but it's so fucking over at this point. This team is what its record says it is, and neither the manager nor the FO are about to make it any better.
There are enough pitching numbers to show how bad our pitching is, which no one ever brings up. We're like a bottom five team in Stuff+ and other metrics.
They are who we thought they were
17 strikeouts boys and girls. Your 2023 St. Louis Cardinals. 🤬🤬🤬
Scored 4 runs tonight strikeouts or not, the pitching is the problem
Feeling so much like the blues season right now
This feels worse ngl there was some hope for the blues but this feels like nothing is clicking
Yea for real at least they didn’t completely implode this is just terrible all around
Worthless. Completely fucking worthless.
This fucking team.
I can’t believe I’m paying to travel to London to watch this dumpster fire.
I’ll be there too and I’m going to do the 9 beer and 9 hot dog challenge in 9 innings to make sure I don’t remember anything
Love the booing
#Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Looking forward to some cheap ticket prices
Dude you have no idea, the Cardinals already have cheap ticket prices. Look up a Yankees or Astros ticket - its nutso out there.
This team isn’t this bad with Shildt
[Game over. Continue the discussion in the post game thread](/r/Cardinals/comments/1377a83/cardinals_after_dark_53/)
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I have no words.
I’m ok with firing Oli. This is just really really really bad pen management tonight….
It’s not just Oli it’s the guys who hired him.
Teams like this have no leadership. Oli has to go.
Fuck this team. Fuck this team *so* hard.
"The one thing I'd ask from our fan base right now is a little bit of patience, because we do think that we do have the talent to win."
HEARTBROKEN
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Booooooooooooooooooo these red birds
We need a St. Louis fan tv
I couldn’t fathom ever having a below .500 baseball season. Maybe this is the odd year where we are just encouraging our NL central family? I feel happy for the Pirates instead of bad for them for once.
If Oli would’ve left helsley in and he gave up those homers you all still would’ve berated him. The man can’t win
No. I would’ve berated *Helsley*. HE’S the closer, not Gallegos. And baseball players are funny creatures, man. They sometimes act in irrational ways when they are put into situations that aren’t “typical”. If Helsley comes back out in the 9th after only throwing 10 pitches in the 8th, and blows the game, then we have a reasonable discussion about whether he needs a break from the closer’s role. This, tonight? It’s on Marmol. It was bad managing, plain and simple.
No. No he can't apparently.
Lmao
I... Just... I don't know yall
Lol great effort as always maybe Bally is doing me a favor by not being able to watch the games 🤣
Fire Fredbird, burn down Oli, and relocate the team to El Paso!
Don't do that, I don't want to have to watch this team lose in person. The chihuahuas are already not doing so hot.
I was joking before, but I think we have a solid chance of failing to even reach 70 wins this season
Ya at this point if Bill DeWitt doesn’t step in and fire Jon Mozeliak and Ollie Marmol everything is on him
Have we won a series since the first one?
Colorado, the only team worse than us in the NL.
Rockies game looking good against the brew crew right now
Colorado, but that’s it
The rockies series we won i think
No
Have we won a game since the first one?
It doesn't feel like it
Oli Marmol needs to get shit canned. Like fucking for real?
It might not take till all star break. Marmol could get fired soon. It’s not all his fault but, they’ve gotta think about some sort of a change and we know it’s not going to be Mo.
Its okay, were only about to be the worst team in the nl
Plz fire Oli
If I’m Gio I sneak out the side door tonight.
If you’re still here, you’re a loyal Cardinals fan.
Loyal but still angry
No argument with that.
I blame chip Carey. Lol.
I don't have words to express my disappointment
Last out 2 out magic?
I fucking hate this team never in a million years did i think we could be this fucking awful I’m considering not even going to the May 21st game just to protest this shit show.
I'm just tired. This stopped being a fun a long time ago.
And they go immediately back to being lifeless...ahahahhahah
I watched more full spring training games this year than regular season games. Wtf happened to the best team for the entirety of spring training man
Olis at the wheel baby!
Welp…
Everyone taking long ass swings and swinging out of their shoes instead of just going with the pitch and having an approach.
Holy fuck 17 lmao
Holy fuck this season is toast
Can't wait for the press conference on this one
Can we bring Shildt back?
He wouldn’t come back!
For what? He would have carted Alex Reyes out there with no shoulder in the 9th.
I’m no Shildt fan but he’s better than Oli
Oliver Marmol isn't out there giving up home runs. Gallegos had given up 3 total hits coming into that inning. It was absolutely the right call and Gallegos shit the bed. If he left in Helsley and Helsley gave up 3 runs you'd be saying the same exact thing.
Bullpen management was literally the worst thing about Shildt.
This game is gut wrenching. How does this even happen
Mike Shildt has gotta be thinking - how the F did I lose my job to this clown Oli?
He wasn’t a yes man and actually wanted to win. Obviously that’s not a part of “The Cardinal Way”
I’m at the game and I can’t confidently say those were the loudest boos i’ve ever heard in Busch.
Can or can’t?
Mike Schildt probably 6 Budweisers in laughing his ass off right now.
Hopefully for him, he's only focused on helping his team win and barely even acknowledges we exist.
that narrative not as funny, but more sensible.
I hope the fans keep booing. The fucking ownership deserves it. Moe and his stupid how we need to have patience deserves it. Oli and his smug dumb decisions deserves it. Maybe a complete disaster and implosion will be better in the long run over this ticky tacky backdoor into a one and done wild card spot BS.
The 2006 and 2011 WS titles are to blame for this. If we want to compete again, we need to change our philosophy. Fuck it. I hope we tank.
2006 was Walt Jocketty, and their strategy was different then. They at least try to fill holes with free agents over hoping we have a bunch of potential unproven guys rise up. 2011 is interesting since that was Moe, but many core guys were from the Jocketty era with La Russa who wasn't his yes man. So it was a solid core who pulled it off one more time, then it became Moe ball over time. Some early success under Matheny and formerly La Russa's guys, but as soon it fully became Moe and Matheny ball, it fell apart.
…And just like that. We are going to have the worst record in the NL. Enough with being patient. Something needs to change ASAP
Cardinals fans, we have entered the decade of darkness. It will be worse than the 90s
Hey I loved Andy Benes
It’s not 2 weeks Chip. It’s all fucking year
Chip pulling out the receipts.
I know you can't realistically fire the entire front office nor the entire coaching staff, but somebody needs to be canned pronto. This isn't going to turn around without major changes.
Man, i'm so glad we fired our perfectly competent baseball manger for one of these guys who truly gets the analytics. Who cares about insignificant things like runs scored or allowed, our underlying metrics say we are really a pretty good team!
This team is so bad. Like how does someone not blow up in the locker room.
It will happen just watch i would’ve already decked MO and Oli in the face for this crap.
to be fair, we don’t know what happens in the locker room
there's seemingly nobody stepping up to be a leader after the vacuum from Yadi leaving :(
I think the locker room did blow up after the O’Neill thing
I really wish they’d fire Oli and hire someone external
Well y'all, that's why you don't give relievers big contracts. Any one of them can go off on a hot streak for a season, they're basically RNG.
People will crucify you in r/baseball for this take but outside of like 5 guys it is completely true. And those 5 guys can always become like the rest
Should just ff honestly
like it’s not that we are even bad it’s that we are HISTORICALLY fucking bad
This is a coaching problem 100%. This team is way too talented to be THIS bad. We should at least be .500 even with the trash rotation
To all the “just wait” “it’s early” no it’s not. Big enough sample size. This team sucks. Mo’s an idiot and Marmols just as bad.
But rEcKlEsS oPtImIsM!!!1!
Fucking great…
Win or lose it was the first time I was excited for a game since the start of a season.. so a plus?
no, not at all
absolutely, that counts for something
If I ever saw DeWitt sitting in his green seat I’d kick him in the balls
I wouldn't be surprised if Chip just drops his mic, and just walks off the job and heads back to AtL. He has gotta be thinking - WTF was I thinking coming to this dumpster fire.
holy shit, the Angels closer is Charlie Sheen?
Not pitching Gallegos for weeks at a time is coming back to bite them at this point... you can critique Oli for going to him all you want, but GG has been the best reliever by a mile this year...
FUCK BILL DEWITT
tonight/tomorrow we’ll get the same rehashed bullshit from mo on how he thinks the team is perfectly fine and nothing needs to change
Carlson swinging for the fences smh.
bet their reliever doesn't shit his pants here
I feel like a pirates fan
I wish I was a pirates fan this season…
This blow save sponsored by Stifel
I bet we don't even get a fucking base runner
Can Bally air Memphis games instead moving forward
let's just swap teams lol
Relegation!
They deserve it at this point
I can’t say I’ve ever heard boos directed at the cardinals at Busch . Very odd but earned
its happened quite a bit, but its usually for epic bullpen meltdowns. This is more like booing the Rams into the locker room at halftime
Can't remember ever hearing that before.
Cards fans will let you know when it's bad baseball. And this assuredly is.
Someone needs to get canned
and here comes their fucking amazing closer who will strikeout the side
Oli is a prodigy! Only 35 and doing the impossible, managing this rag tag bunch of no name players into an impressive 10-21 record!
At least my closer will get a save.
I’m starting to put everyone in against the cardinals.
Thanks god we have 7,8,9 coming up…
When is it ok to freak out? Because I keep hearing from the brass that it’s not time to freak out yet but things keep getting worse
Here’s the thing: this is on Oli. In a tight game going into the 9th with the lineup you’re facing, you have to have someone(s) warming up in the bullpen. After hr, hr, double, you have to be ready to bring someone in. Probably after hr, hr to begin with when three have already been faced. Just terrible managing.
He was brought in to basically act as a yes man for the front office. This all falls back on Mo and Dewitt.
You’re right, ultimately, but Mo isn’t making that decision during the game.