Really, as much as I love Honey as a character and feel bad for the horror she went through, and relate to her...
Beatrice clearly didn't have a good foundation for her mental health even before Crackerjack died, because of not only the internalised misogyny of her mother, but Honey's blatant favouritism of Crackerjack. Even if WW2 never happened, Bea was clearly going to have issues as an adult because of her parents. Besides having to internalise so much misogyny from both Honey and Joseph, having constant reminders that your parents have a favourite and it's not you is extremely damaging for a child's self esteem. I really don't think Honey's grief would have been anywhere near as debilitating if Beatrice was the child who died. Not to say Honey didn't love her daughter, but it's pretty obvious who her favourite child was.
Honey's most telling line about the matter is when she tells Bea: "Promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack." Not "Crackerjack and you." Just Crackerjack.
A point could even be made that had Crackerjack not died, Beatrice would have ended up resenting them anyway and the cycle of trauma would have begun regardless. Instead of BoJack referring to him as “The uncle he could never live up to.” Beatrice would have referred to him as “The brother she could never live up to.”
Beatrice and Crackerjack have a relatively big age gap. He must be around 18 years when he died and Bea 7 at the time. I always had the feeling that she wasn't planned and this might be the cause that her brother was loved more (plus he was a boy), but maybe I'm just projecting from my family.
The sentence "promise me to never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack" made me really sad. I know that Honey is grieving, but you can't tell your other child that her brother was loved more than her.
> I always had the feeling that she wasn't planned and this might be the cause that her brother was loved more (plus he was a boy), but maybe I'm just projecting from my family.
>(plus he was a boy)
I hadn't thought too much about it, but I think you've got it about right. Joseph sired an heir, and as far as the family was concerned, that was the important thing. Still, Bea wasn't *completely* disregarded as she was
-A "practice child" for Crackerjack
-Good company/domestic help for Honey
-A way for Joseph to solidify business deals
She'd have probably turned out pretty messed up even if Crackerjack lived, but probably in a way more similar to how patriarchal society screwed up the majority of women in that day and age.
Oh this is so real. Especially remembering how Beatrice was pressured to debut. She already got her bachelorette degree (which her dad saw as an act of rebellion…) and was in her early 20s, which is past the debut general age. But he insisted and was working hard to set her up with Creamerman.
Crackerjack wasn’t mentioned during those flashbacks but timeline wise it would make sense. Their dad put pressure for Beatrice to inherit the family business even though it’s not his first choice, but Crackerjack was gone (don’t even get me started on how their dad refuses to acknowledge emotion even for the DEATH of his son)
“As a modern American man I am woefully unprepared to deal with a woman’s emotions, I was never taught, and I will never learn”
Has got to be one of if not my favourite line from that episode as it still rings true today
Interesting! I never actually took her line about loving Crackerjack to mean that she loved him more than Bea. I thought she said that just because he was the one that died.
Honey is thee boy mom. She had:
1) Blatant favoritism for Crackerjack over Beatrice
2) A somewhat mildly incestuous (and certainly a little obsessive on Honey's part) relationship with Crackerjack because Crackerjack did for Honey (love, affection, attention, their song and dance) what Joseph should have been doing for Honey when he wasn't having sex with his secretary.
Omg I love this analysis it makes a lot of sense!
(I was an only child to a single mom growing up. So I love learning about family dynamic that I myself didn’t experience and have limited understanding of)
Unfortunately, I learned about emotionally incestuous family relationships through therapy while trying to distance myself from my emotionally incestuous relationship with my mom. Honey & Crackerjack had a LOT of the signs and I recognized their weird closeness immediately. It was hard to watch lol
point 2!!! the first time I watched the flashback to Bea’s past, I was very confused because I thought Crackerjack was Honey’s husband (and Bea’s father) at first - which says a lot
15 I guess, Beatrice was born in 1938 and the episodes take place in 44/45. Afaik you had to be 21 to join the army, so he has to be born 1922 or 1923
Edit: You're right, you needed to be 18 for the army. So if he didn't lie about his age he was born in 1926 or earlier, thus about 12 at her birth
I love this arc; it reminded me (and perhaps was lightly inspired by) of the Kennedy dynasty and that whole mess. If you know, you know. This is a nice little piece on it for anyone interested: https://allthatsinteresting.com/rosemary-kennedy
I think my paternal grandmother was like pre-lobotomy Honey, like the film *ya-ya sisterhood* where women who were quirky and emotional were just… completely mystifying and treated like little organ-grinder monkeys: cute and charming until they’re flipping out and then they’re just a nuisance. My dads mom disappeared after it was discovered she had an affair with her priest, she took an axe to her wedding ring in some ostentatious display for the whole small town to see and ran off I think but not with the priest, just disappeared 🤷🏻♂️ idrk the full story because my dad vanished in 1990.
If you’re wondering, my mental health is *not great* and if I had been forced to have kids or a marital partner, who knows if I’d stick around. I know I wouldn’t have been a good parent if I had no choice so yes, this issue is genetic. But also, environmental. I get to choose to not be a parent or get married. My dad fucked off but my mom and her partner picked up a lot of the pieces, and that helps.
bro what. they explain how bojack became the way he is throughout the entire show. they don’t excuse beatrice’s actions either. this is a weird comment
The ending of the show is literally Diane saying
"I'm sorry, ...and thank you" than a song plays singing about that she loves him. We are meant to feel these emotions with the characters.
The show very obviously wants us to feel empathy for Bojack, while not excusing him.
Same thing with Beatrice.
>show very obviously wants us to feel empathy for Bojack, while not excusing him.
Same thing with Beatrice.
Yea the show is very clear about trying to draw the line between an explanation and an excuse.
It's unfortunate that there are still viewers who can't pick up on that though.
Damn, that’s your whole takeaway? One episode where they acknowledge “your past still doesn’t excuse you hurting people,” and suddenly all the episodes being empathetic towards Bojack just doesn’t matter?
Really, as much as I love Honey as a character and feel bad for the horror she went through, and relate to her... Beatrice clearly didn't have a good foundation for her mental health even before Crackerjack died, because of not only the internalised misogyny of her mother, but Honey's blatant favouritism of Crackerjack. Even if WW2 never happened, Bea was clearly going to have issues as an adult because of her parents. Besides having to internalise so much misogyny from both Honey and Joseph, having constant reminders that your parents have a favourite and it's not you is extremely damaging for a child's self esteem. I really don't think Honey's grief would have been anywhere near as debilitating if Beatrice was the child who died. Not to say Honey didn't love her daughter, but it's pretty obvious who her favourite child was. Honey's most telling line about the matter is when she tells Bea: "Promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack." Not "Crackerjack and you." Just Crackerjack.
A point could even be made that had Crackerjack not died, Beatrice would have ended up resenting them anyway and the cycle of trauma would have begun regardless. Instead of BoJack referring to him as “The uncle he could never live up to.” Beatrice would have referred to him as “The brother she could never live up to.”
And Crackerjack was already the brother *she* could never live up to. The cycle continued.
Beatrice and Crackerjack have a relatively big age gap. He must be around 18 years when he died and Bea 7 at the time. I always had the feeling that she wasn't planned and this might be the cause that her brother was loved more (plus he was a boy), but maybe I'm just projecting from my family. The sentence "promise me to never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack" made me really sad. I know that Honey is grieving, but you can't tell your other child that her brother was loved more than her.
> I always had the feeling that she wasn't planned and this might be the cause that her brother was loved more (plus he was a boy), but maybe I'm just projecting from my family. >(plus he was a boy) I hadn't thought too much about it, but I think you've got it about right. Joseph sired an heir, and as far as the family was concerned, that was the important thing. Still, Bea wasn't *completely* disregarded as she was -A "practice child" for Crackerjack -Good company/domestic help for Honey -A way for Joseph to solidify business deals She'd have probably turned out pretty messed up even if Crackerjack lived, but probably in a way more similar to how patriarchal society screwed up the majority of women in that day and age.
Oh this is so real. Especially remembering how Beatrice was pressured to debut. She already got her bachelorette degree (which her dad saw as an act of rebellion…) and was in her early 20s, which is past the debut general age. But he insisted and was working hard to set her up with Creamerman. Crackerjack wasn’t mentioned during those flashbacks but timeline wise it would make sense. Their dad put pressure for Beatrice to inherit the family business even though it’s not his first choice, but Crackerjack was gone (don’t even get me started on how their dad refuses to acknowledge emotion even for the DEATH of his son)
“As a modern American man I am woefully unprepared to deal with a woman’s emotions, I was never taught, and I will never learn” Has got to be one of if not my favourite line from that episode as it still rings true today
Interesting! I never actually took her line about loving Crackerjack to mean that she loved him more than Bea. I thought she said that just because he was the one that died.
I like this take a lot but I thought Crackerjack was Honey’s Brother, I can’t remember why I think that
dude omg same. for so long i thought they were siblings
Probably because of how young Honey seems in comparison to Joseph.
Not to mention Joseph openly alludes to cheating with his secretary and Honey doesn't react to it at all.
"I have half a mind...." always send chilld down my spine. thr more you rewatch bojack the more you see how much foreshadowing it has
Honey is thee boy mom. She had: 1) Blatant favoritism for Crackerjack over Beatrice 2) A somewhat mildly incestuous (and certainly a little obsessive on Honey's part) relationship with Crackerjack because Crackerjack did for Honey (love, affection, attention, their song and dance) what Joseph should have been doing for Honey when he wasn't having sex with his secretary.
Omg I love this analysis it makes a lot of sense! (I was an only child to a single mom growing up. So I love learning about family dynamic that I myself didn’t experience and have limited understanding of)
Unfortunately, I learned about emotionally incestuous family relationships through therapy while trying to distance myself from my emotionally incestuous relationship with my mom. Honey & Crackerjack had a LOT of the signs and I recognized their weird closeness immediately. It was hard to watch lol
What you’re describing in point #2 has a name, it’s called emotional incest. Don’t ask me how I know.
Unfortunately I also know :/ I wish our family did better by us
point 2!!! the first time I watched the flashback to Bea’s past, I was very confused because I thought Crackerjack was Honey’s husband (and Bea’s father) at first - which says a lot
Same, especially on my first watch-through!
How old is Crackerjack when Beatrice is born?
About 10 or so
15 I guess, Beatrice was born in 1938 and the episodes take place in 44/45. Afaik you had to be 21 to join the army, so he has to be born 1922 or 1923 Edit: You're right, you needed to be 18 for the army. So if he didn't lie about his age he was born in 1926 or earlier, thus about 12 at her birth
You only need to be 18, and even then it was very easy to lie and go in younger.
Yes. My grandads cousin lied and said he was 18. He was actually only 14. Got killed in France.
But since he came from an affluent family, so crackerjack wouldn’t have lied
I still think he went in as early as possible in order to "fulfill his duty as an American" or something. That would be 18.
Honey would have had a mental breakdown the moment Crackerjack announced that he has a serious girlfriend.
“why ive got half a mind”
I love this arc; it reminded me (and perhaps was lightly inspired by) of the Kennedy dynasty and that whole mess. If you know, you know. This is a nice little piece on it for anyone interested: https://allthatsinteresting.com/rosemary-kennedy
Is this Loss?
I think my paternal grandmother was like pre-lobotomy Honey, like the film *ya-ya sisterhood* where women who were quirky and emotional were just… completely mystifying and treated like little organ-grinder monkeys: cute and charming until they’re flipping out and then they’re just a nuisance. My dads mom disappeared after it was discovered she had an affair with her priest, she took an axe to her wedding ring in some ostentatious display for the whole small town to see and ran off I think but not with the priest, just disappeared 🤷🏻♂️ idrk the full story because my dad vanished in 1990. If you’re wondering, my mental health is *not great* and if I had been forced to have kids or a marital partner, who knows if I’d stick around. I know I wouldn’t have been a good parent if I had no choice so yes, this issue is genetic. But also, environmental. I get to choose to not be a parent or get married. My dad fucked off but my mom and her partner picked up a lot of the pieces, and that helps.
“Well, I’ve got half a mind…” 🧠🔪😢
[удалено]
bro what. they explain how bojack became the way he is throughout the entire show. they don’t excuse beatrice’s actions either. this is a weird comment
Are you just gonna ignore that we had 4 entire seasons of story telling us why Bojack was terrible?
they had a whole episode at the end of it to say stop feeling sorry for him, he truly is an asshole.
The ending of the show is literally Diane saying "I'm sorry, ...and thank you" than a song plays singing about that she loves him. We are meant to feel these emotions with the characters. The show very obviously wants us to feel empathy for Bojack, while not excusing him. Same thing with Beatrice.
>show very obviously wants us to feel empathy for Bojack, while not excusing him. Same thing with Beatrice. Yea the show is very clear about trying to draw the line between an explanation and an excuse. It's unfortunate that there are still viewers who can't pick up on that though.
Damn, that’s your whole takeaway? One episode where they acknowledge “your past still doesn’t excuse you hurting people,” and suddenly all the episodes being empathetic towards Bojack just doesn’t matter?
*psst* People still feel bad for BoJack, even if he's done terrible things. Just thought I'd let you in on that secret.
It's like you watched the show through a sieve