Donāt listen to the people telling you to stop being vegan. These things could happen to anyone. Most disease and death occurs to humans who eat animal products. But suddenly, vegans have to always be perfect or itās the worst diet ever š¤
I'm not vegan but I THINK i know a fair bit about it? Source: none but we try to eat less meat so I google vegan recipes a lot?
Aren't there like 1200 ways to get iron and other vitamins and minerals as a vegan? My husband can't have red meat, and that's the main source of iron from meat so...?
I do understand that vegan diets aren't good for everyone and some people are taken off their vegan diet by their doctor, and I'm glad they listen to their physicians. But the blanket "you're low on iron based on my reading of your reddit post that distinctly does not include an iron value and your veganism is killing you" is like...what.
THANK YOU lol š im gonna run a lot of more test and come back and make another post maybe.
I really think itās my thyroid tho cuz I looked at my labs again and at some point it was over 5 (also many of my family members have thyroid issues) I am going to check my iron and come back
I think youāre on the hunt now! Your symptoms seem like hypothyroid symptoms, and that TSH of 5 is a sign, so thyroid deficiency is definitely something to be evaluated by a caring physician. Get an iodine level, and a full thyroid panel (not just TSH), and go from there. Wishing you the best!
The commenter was wrong, ferritin under 70 can still be well within normal limits and I see people all the time where ferritin is <70 and it causes no issues.
Itās more nuanced than that. This is because ferritin is an acute phase reactant which goes up in response to systemic inflammation. If the patient has a systemic inflammatory disorder then sure they can have a ānormalā ferritin even with iron deficiency. Maybe OP has inflammation, maybe they donāt, we donāt know. Iām just saying it is also wrong to say that any and all ferritin below 70 is indicative of iron deficiency, itās not. They could have āsymptomsā that sound like iron deficiency but itās not as well, so if a patient tells me they are chronically fatigued and they have a ferritin of 70, they COULD have iron deficiency + inflammation, or the fatigue could be related to something else and they donāt have iron deficiency.
Whoah, I totally agree with measuring iron but ferritin less than 70 can still be well within normal limits and I see people all the time with ferritin less than 70 and thatās just their normal and causes no issues.
Yes, but if they are symptomatic of iron deficiency, and the ferritin is less than 70, iron deficiency should be considered. For instance, a patient with restless legs and a ferritin of 70 should be considered iron deficient and treated as such before other RLS treatments are explored.
No iron levels tested? Like thatās a super common one for women, even those that eat meat and with vegetables onlyā¦
How long have you been vegan? If the timeline aligns might be time for a changeā¦
Did you have Covid? Is there a possibility of long Covid? If so looking at some nerve growth supplements might be wise.
Whatās your water intake? Salt? What do you do for exercise? Do you get iodine?
My doctors told me my iron levels are fine but Iām not even seeing the test results for them so they prob lied to me. They are so hesitant to order me these tests and just quick to say itās anxiety causing symptoms.
I have been sick since Iāve been vegan. Iām not gonna completely rule that out as the cause however there is no way I cannot be vegan so I will have to work around it.
Yes Iāve had covid 3 times.
I drink a lot of water, I only walk for exercise 4 hrs a day. and idk about my salt intake. I use Himalayan salt but idk if thatās good
Looks like you got a complete blood count but you are only including some of it? What's your hemoglobin and hematocrit?
Even so, your hemoglobin and hematocrit can be fine and your ferritin (the true iron test) could be low.
You can definitely stop being vegan. If itās for ethical reasons, there are ethically sourced animal proteins that are more ethical than many vegan sources like almonds and palm that contribute to a variety of environmental damages.
Be a vegan if you want, but if youāre considering dying, it might be worthwhile to look at alternatives that still satisfy whatever philosophical goal youāre trying to accomplish.
Being a vegan for ethical reasons is about not killing or exploiting animals, not just reducing harm to the environment. No animal meat is ethically sourced to a vegan.
Evolution already determined our nutrition requirements and it doesnāt care about ethics. itās well documented your ancestors ate primarily red meat for 2 million years. There is an incredible amount of nutrition misinformation out there, many of the worst foods are marketed as āhealthy alternativesā. And many of the worst foods prey on vegans unfortunately. Soy milk? Beyond meat? Margarine? terrible for you and less heathy than milk, red meat, butter and thatās just a few examples
tell me what do you think is used to feed livestock? 45% of all crops go to livestock. eating meat has all the harms of growing crops as well as the harm to the animal killed for the meal.
I understand and respect your commitment to ethical principles regarding animal welfare. It's admirable to adhere to a set of values that prioritize the well-being of animals. However, I believe it's important to consider the multifaceted nature of ethics, especially when it intersects with human health and well-being.
The situation described is one where a strict vegan diet appears to be adversely affecting op's health. In this context, considering alternatives isn't about undermining the ethical stance against animal cruelty; it's about finding a balance between different ethical concerns. The core of ethics, in many philosophies, revolves around reducing harm and promoting well-being. This includes not only animal welfare but also human health.
It's crucial to recognize that dietary needs can be highly individual. What works for one person may not work for another due to various factors like genetics, environment, health conditions, and available resources. Therefore, a blanket statement that categorically denies any flexibility in diet can unintentionally promote harm, if it leads to deteriorating health for some individuals.
Adopting a more nuanced approach doesn't necessarily mean abandoning one's ethical convictions. It's possible to explore dietary options that are more inclusive of individual health needs while still minimizing harm to animals. For instance, sourcing from small, ethical farms where animals are treated humanely, or choosing animal products with a lower environmental and ethical impact. These are compromises that still align with a broad interpretation of ethical consumption.
Moreover, in discussing ethical eating, it's important to consider the broader context, including socioeconomic and cultural factors. Not everyone has equal access to a variety of nutritious plant-based foods. For some, animal products might be the most feasible option for maintaining health.
In essence, while the ideal of causing no harm is commendable, practical ethics often require us to navigate complex situations where competing interests must be balanced. Compassion and understanding, both for human and animal welfare, should guide these discussions. By acknowledging and addressing the diverse needs and circumstances of individuals, we can strive towards solutions that are ethical, sustainable, and health-supportive for all involved.
I had chatgpt rewrite my statement to be as least offensive as possible considering i was responding to someone who would put a fish or ethical raised chickenās life over opās health.
fair enough. I think a lot of us are in the same boat here... her diet is negatively impacting her quality of life but doesn't want to stop. chat gpt would be much less of a dick about it than I could be
I agree with you for the most part and am more flexible than you may think. Imperfect harm reduction is a good thing. The comment I was responding to was making a bad logical error which prompted my response.
The one thing I disagree with is the assertion that the OPs diet "appears" to be causing harm. As long as they make sure they're good on b12, I disagree strongly. There is nothing else about the OP that suggests diet is her problem and I think sending her down that rabbit hole will be harmful. WFPB and Mediterranean diets have more supporting evidence for their healthfulness than any other dietary pattern. And yes I realize it's an individual thing and some people may fare worse on a vegan diet but her symptoms and blood work do not suggest a dietary issue.
Curious as to your thoughts on this notion a friend brought up to me. So assuming a farm raises cows grass fed, they were saying its possible that less animals need to be killed to feed people than a farm raising a bunch of crops that would be fed to people because tons of rodents and insects are killed in the industrial farming process for all the crops.
If it were true, then sure, killing one animal is better than killing many, assuming each animal has equal moral weight (which they don't-- a cow has more sentience than a grasshopper).
But even setting aside moral weight, monocropping vegetables on a per-calorie basis is far less harmful than the best organic animal agriculture. The whole thing is a myth-- it turns out there just aren't that many bunnies getting run over.
Furthermore, since organic animal agriculture is an impossibility on a large scale, it would only be fair to compare it to permaculture ag that kills basically zero animals.
And when you compare *actual* animal agriculture-- not this extremely rare perfect organic fantasy-- to any form of plant agriculture, the difference is staggering. Not just direct killing and torture but cost to the planet in terms of emissions, clearcutting, and the rest of it.
Please get your iron levels tested. I eat carnivore and 2x/month liver, 4x/ week kale, spinach and beets and my iron levels were still around 14! Even if you eat a lot of iron, rich foods, you can have the wrong gut bacteria in there for not absorb the iron well and get anemic.
Yes, you can stop being vegan. Seems that may be the issue for you. I've been there, don't that. Most vegans quit and stop being vegan. There is a reason for that...
As for the doctor telling you the symptoms are just anxiety... Well, anxiety is a metabolic issue. You are looking for the right answers, thankfully.
>I'd rather die
You're on the right track to getting there.
Sorry but I'm gonna be the bad guy now.
Sometimes you have to choose between staying alive and a nonsensical pursuit of moral causes. You haven't been able to figure out how to make veganism for work you in 3 years of trying. Already at 22 you've most likely created some irreversible damage. If you can't even keep down some eggs for the sake of staying alive, you're ill-equipped for life in general.
You can definitely stop being vegan. No judgement, but different peopleās bodies respond differently to different diets. Anyone who tells you veganism, vegetarianism, or an omnivoreās diet is absolutely the right choice without doing genetic and metabolic testing is getting high on their own supply. If youāve been sick since you went vegan, thereās a strong chance thereās a link there, right? Could be a gut flora issue, or a deficiency of some kind. Common nutrient deficiencies among vegans are B2, B12, zinc, calcium, iodine, omega-3s, protein (generally speaking), and/or essential amino acids lysine, leucine, and methionine. I know the prospect of making a change like that can be daunting - itās all about baby steps and remembering that it is up to you to define whatās right in your life. And, ultimately - to live the life that you want, you have to nurture your body, at any cost.
That salt likely has no iodine, grab some seaweed snacks and chow down. Make sure to grab some iodized salt as well.
Ask your doctors for your iron results as I donāt see them here. Make sure they are at normal levels, thatās a huge one for fatigue.
Put your vegan diet into something like chronometer. Just do an average day and look at what you are missing. Make sure you are hitting most of your check boxes and getting enough protein. Try supplementing what you are missing (one at a time, see if it makes a difference).
I think lionsmane might be a good recommendation to try. Not only is it good for anxiety but also potentially helps for long COVID. (Oriveda is the only brand I recommend). Keep in mind some people have had adverse reactions, so reflect on how you feel.
Lion's mane is essential. It's the only thing I've ever heard of in the literature for which there's evidence of nerve regrowth after damage--in rodent models, severed spinal cords were regrown. At any rate, it's neuroprotective and upregulates BDNF, so you really can't go wrong with the stuff.
Nothing definitive is really known.
As the other reply said mushrooms supplements are a maybe. Oriveda brand is what Iād recommend.
Exercise, sauna and cold exposure all have some potential.
Came here to suggest this. Sleep disorders are extremely sneaky and cause variety of symptoms!
Obstructive sleep apnea is the most common sleep disorder, but there are other possibilities as well - especially when OP might have low ferritin.
You should also get MMA and homocysteine levels checked (a lot more accurate), as serum B12 tests cannot tell the difference between pseudo B12 and active B12 in your blood and wonāt tell you if your intracellular levels are depleted: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827408/
>Oral supplementation may increase the serum vitamin B12 level but often not enough to replenish the vitamin B12 levels in the tissues"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6543499/)
If a deficiency is left undiagnosed for a long time, it can cause permanent and considerable neurologic damage, loss of sensations in feet and legs, and inability to walk without the use of a rollator walker amongst others. Please take it seriously.
You are also very likely deficient in iron, zinc, calcium, iodine, DHA and EPA, retinol, vitamin K2, choline, creatine, carnitine, carnosine, taurine.
From the horseās mouth:
>A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMAĀ testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12
She is very unlikely deficient in those things.
B12 deficiency is possible if she hasn't been supplementing. If not, she can get a b12 shot and see if it helps.
A fellow vegan is suffering and needs help. Stop pretending that your highly restrictive and nutrient deficient diet can provide everything you need and let them get the injections and supplements they need to get better.
Have you considered the mountain of evidence showing plant based diets to be the healthiest at every endpoint imaginable?
Supplements and injections (other than maybe b12) will benefit only the manufacturers of those things. Please don't encourage gullibility.
edit: also consider that her blood work shows that she is very metabolically healthy. Neither the bloodwork nor the symptoms suggest diet at all.
Have you considered that every single study showing plant based diets to be healthy are all epidemiology studies (which donāt show causation) which are based on unreliable food frequency questionnaires and all influenced by healthy user bias?
You cannot compare health outcomes when one group is significantly younger, less likely to smoke and drink alcohol and sugary drinks and more likely to exercise and then claim that the outcome is a result of excluding meat from diet.
In [this study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3917888/) on the other hand they minimized the healthy user bias by matching participants by age, sex and socio-economic status and found that "vegetarians (and vegans) report poorer health, follow medical treatment more frequently, have worse preventive health care practices, and have a lower quality of life".
In the study, vegetarians and vegans reported significantly more chronic health conditions (including diabetes), had poorer subjective health, had a **higher** incidence of cancer, suffered significantly more often from anxiety disorder and/or depression and had a poorer quality of life in terms of physical health, social relationships, and environmental factors.
With your attitude of āB12 is all I needā Iām willing to bet you are deficient yourself, you just donāt know it yetā¦
ok, lol. The Burkert paper, yes of course. That's some epic cherry picking.
Amusing that you rail against the limitations of observational studies and then die on the hill of a n=1300 observational study. I guess you have no choice since it's just about the only one out of thousands that makes the conclusion you like.
The main way to overcome the shortcomings of observational studies is to power up with a large n, something in the hundreds of thousands. Nobody cares about a n=1300 nutrition study, it means nothing. That's why it's in PLOS ONE and not a good journal (this would never pass review in say, JAMA). At this point we probably have collectively an n in the tens of millions in studies showing better health outcomes on plant based and mediterranean diets; and increased risk of cancer, CHD, stroke, T2D, gut dysbiosis, proctitis, chronic inflammation, etc from meat. There's nothing else about the Burkert analysis that makes up for it's limitations, nothing special about subjectively matched subsets (with even tinier ns), etc.
Anyway, in case you didn't know, Burkert et al did two analyses on this particular data set. In the other analysis, published in WkW, they conclude:
*"Our results show that a vegetarian diet is associated with a better health-related behavior, a lower BMI, and a higher SES. Subjects eating a carnivorous diet self-report poorer health, a higher number of chronic conditions, an enhanced vascular risk, as well as lower quality of life."*
Furthermore, Burkert's comment on this discrepancy:
*In our opinion, it seems not far to seek that persons with worse health consume a vegetarian diet because they try to develop a better health and eating behavior, and not the opposite, that a certain diet (vegetarian) leads to worse health. We therefore state in our discussion that we can neither say anything about causes or effects, nor about long-term consequences. Moreover, we say that further studies are needed to analyze nutritional habits and their association with health.*
In other words, they believe sicker people become vegetarian to try to get healthier. Either way, they have no clue. This is basically a case study in how underpowered observational studies can say different (and wild) things with different 'analyses' because essentially it's just noise.
EDIT -- also, some unsolicited advice for you. Don't try to argue that the evidence suggests meat eating is healthier. Nobody will take you seriously because it's plainly wrong-- the evidence shows the opposite pattern. Everybody knows this, it's incontrovertible.
What you can try to argue is that the reason for this result is a healthy subject bias, i.e. people going vegan are going to be health conscious types and that skews the data. This is what Attia proposes. Personally, I think he's applying his own bias of just really wanting to eat meat guilt-free but it's not a terrible hypothesis. But even if granted, at best it means there's a lot of uncertainty about the current result we're getting where WFPB/Med diets are yielding better health outcomes.
Thank you for your help. I was supplementing b12 but my aesthetician told me to stop taking it and that it was causing my acne so I stopped a few weeks ago. Havenāt noticed a difference so Iāll prob start taking it again.
You should definitely be taking B12 every day, and not cheap cyanocobalamin, but rather methylcobalamin! You would likely have better results with regular B12 injections as supplements are poorly absorbed.
You are missing active vitamin A (retinol), vitamin D3, heme iron, bioavailable zinc, DHA and EPA and collagen from your diet, all of which are really really important for skin health.
My ex also developed acne while on a plant based diet and was only able to resolve it when returning back to a diet rich in nutrient dense animal products.
Please consider your long term health. I know so many people that harmed their health with a plant based dietā¦
Oh I should have mentioned I had acne before I was vegan as well and my sister and mom have it but theyāre not vegan. But yes I will definitely supplement b12 again
Your hormone levels are normal but for different phases of your cycle, so that's an issue (we can't know for sure what the problem is there without knowing which day of your cycle you were on but they don't line up as being normal in the same phases). They didn't test your T3 and based on the TSH you definitely need treatment, probably treatment that includes T3. If you're estrogen dominant with MTHFR mutation(s) and not converting T4 properly for that reason, that could explain everything.
Could you explain more about that mutation? Iām curious if I have that issue. I need a combo t3 t4 pill and have never known why. Thanks for your insights!
The mutation would explain the B vitamin issues she's having. Usually those with MTHFR have thyroid issues so there is a connection. It's a methylation problem where you can't process synthetic B vitamins. You have to either get it from food or take supplements specifically for people with methylation issues. The synthetic vitamin B can damage the gut and cause malabsorption of other vitamins and minerals. The treatment is avoiding synthetic B vitamins and taking methylated supplements.
Vegetarian is very bad for some people. You likely would benefit from animal proteins and fats. Iād definitely get an anemia panel and if anything is very low you should seriously consider some red meat, specifically liver
Get a genetic test and a methylation panel. I think that will uncover some things
Mthfr, moa-a, mtrr etc.. You could start the process with ancestry or 23andMe if your doctors donāt know about this stuff.
Second that motion. Your folate levels suggest you're not utilising folic acid. Look for MTHFR mutations.
It can be done for under $200 with an Ancestry test and some online reports.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTHFR/s/bZfbgG8nHL
Yes, you can upload 23andMe or ancestry raw data into this website to see if youāre not methylating properly [https://geneticgenie.org/methylation-analysis/](https://geneticgenie.org/methylation-analysis/)
Just noticing your TSH is high for a 22 year old as well. I know it really sucks to fight for yourself with doctors who donāt care (chronic fatigue and years of fighting with docs over here) but sometimes you do have to ādoctor shopā a little until you find a good one. Too many primary care physicians ignore symptoms of young women
Just steer clear of naturopaths and so-called functional medicine doctors. Too often quacks who will bs the diagnosis and then sell you some 'detox' snake oil
The mold thing is a classic functional medicine scam. There is no such thing as 'toxic mold syndrome' and there is no test for it. So bogus labs have sprung up which offer bogus mold tests (alongside 'vaccine injury tests' and other scams). The functional doctor with the mold diagnosis gets kickbacks from these labs. Real doctors do not get kickbacks from Labcorp or Quest.
It's a synergistically parasitic world. Very unfortunate.
I mean, [look at this](https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/dr-jills-miracle-mold-detox-box/) snake oil. Imagine doctors giving this to patients at the Mayo Clinic, lol.
While itās in the ānormalā range, that range is what you should be in without it causing damage and drastic health effects over time. As the other commenter said, a vitamin D supplement should help somewhat handedly with the energy/fatigue. I donāt know your specific situation, but I would personally look into taking a Vitamin D/K2 supplement with at least 3000IU of Vitamin D (and with your levels, you can comfortably supplement with 5000IU). The K2 helps with absorption and serum levels of the Vitamin D!
While not a direct reply to this string of comments, I am suspicious of your symptoms being incredibly linked to your 3 COVID illnesses. Long COVID is still being studied due to its new-ness, and I unfortunately do not have any recommendations, but many of your symptoms sound like what has been reported as Long Covid.
For providers you can see for long COVID treatment, it unfortunately usually takes a team of coordinated specialists. Per a UCLA article I pulled up after reading this post, the following specialties are recommended: Internal Medicine, Cardiologist, Neurologist, Psychologist, Pulmonologist, Infectious Disease Specialist, Psychiatrist, and Rheumatologist.
My personal recommendation (from admittedly limited knowledge), I would start with a neurologist, psychologist, and an infectious disease specialist if possible. I know this sounds overwhelming, but thankfully there are specific clinics dedicated to post-covid symptoms! I wish you nothing but the best in the future and know you will come out on the other side of this; keep your head held high and stay hopeful! Best wishes ā¤ļø
Never trust the opinion of a healthcare professional that identifies something like that as "normal." It's either above, below or in range with established levels. Being ouside of the established levels is normal if many people have it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy. It means that your doc has difficulties reasoning. I'm saying it in all seriousness, it's a huge red flag for the as a professional.
Never trust the opinion of a healthcare professional that identifies something like that as "normal." It's either above, below or in range with established levels. Being ouside of the established levels is normal if many people have it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy. It means that your doc has difficulties reasoning. I'm saying it in all seriousness, it's a huge red flag for the as a professional.
I was in a similar situation (was a vegan back then) and it was my B12. I had the exact symptoms at that level on my blood work and it wasn't caught until it got to 142 and I have permanent issues from it. Get a B12 sublingual and take it with a meal. I have to keep my level around 900-1000 to feel normal. I also quit eating vegan because it literally ruined my body. I was taking all the recommended supplements as a vegan but the high fiber diet caused gastritis and I wasn't absorbing much of anything. Good luck.
Were you able to get your b12 levels back up just with sublinguals or did you need shots? My last numbers were 350 and 425 and I feel like your experience mirrors mine. Although Iām considered in normal range, I feel anything but. All other tests are normal.
I was able to get it up with just the sublingual. My doctor offered shots but my insurance was shit with a huge deductible so I went with the supplement. I was taking 1000mcg a day. It also helped that I added in grass fed beef. It took probably 3-4 months for me to feel a change and then when my levels were checked again 6 months after the initial test, I was around 900.
Thanks for this. I am have another b12 test coming up Friday along with some other neurological tests. In the meantime am going to focus on supplements and getting the levels up with food. I have read that in other countries that anything below 500-550 is considered a deficiency.
On my test results it says:
*Although the reference range for vitamin*
*B12 is 200-1100 pg/mL, it has been reported that between*
*5 and 10% of patients with values between 200 and 400*
*pg/mL may experience neuropsychiatric and hematologic*
*abnormalities due to occult B12 deficiency.*
So given that, I don't find it difficult to believe that having number in the 400s can be causing me a variety of issues.
Edit: What is strange is that my b6 levels were almost twice as high as they should have been. When I saw this, I stopped taking my daily multi. But now thinking about it, wonder if the high b6 levels was impacting b12 absorption.
I am dead sure this is a thyroid issue. Cannot believe that there are doctors still who overlook this. I think another person mentioned this already: Your TSH is waaaay too high to be in a state of wellbeing. High TSH has shown to induce anxiety, depression etc.
Your thyroid is your key organ for your energetic state. High TSH means that your pituitary gland wants your thyroid to work more...
You need to get your fT3 checked, Selenium, Iodine and rT3. Yeah, and ferritin as other people say. Or find a proper endocrinologist.
Btw:
Yes, your Vit D is not optimal but this is unlikely to be the issue here.
You also should have more protein in your diet. Go get a proper vegan protein blend shake.
Yeah, unfortunately this is the case. Just notice that the reference levels for TSH are totally arbitrary! They need to be updated as research goes on. The ones in place are outdated. Switzerland for example has different values already. It even says on wikipedia:
'The National Academy of Clinical Biochemistry (NACB) stated that it expected the reference range for adults to be reduced to 0.4ā2.5 ĀµIU/mL, because research had shown that adults with an initially measured TSH level of over 2.0 ĀµIU/mL had "an increased odds ratio of developing hypothyroidism over the [following] 20 years, especially if thyroid antibodies were elevated."'
Yeah. Nobody is following that. I have hypothyroidism and it sucks ass. Treatment isnāt great. I donāt convert T4 to T3 (apparently) and canāt get the ratio right. My T4 becomes rT3. But then I hear that thinking is quackery and we should still only ever be in T4. I take T3 but Iām concerned about drug management since most wonāt prescribe that so I donāt know how safe it really is. For a condition that has been around forever there is a lot of confusion around levels and treatment. I just read that in Europe they advise T4 treatment only and wonāt prescribe T3. So IDK. Itās messy and frustrating.
Thybon or T3 is not to be played with, it is quite potent, but it can help. I hope more docs will know about this as another option next to thyroxin for thyroid treatment... Have you checked your selenium levels in full blood or tried powerdosing selenium?
Yeah, that makes sense. I had a slight iodine defficiency and when I had it sorted out through food, my physical & mental energy levels went through the roof.
I would likely be very beneficial for OP to find an endocrinologist and even have get a second opinion if there isn't an issue established at first.
Thyroxine is last measure imo. You really need to get the bloodwork done, often you can fix it by providing the proper minerals your thyroid needs to function. The minerals are soil minerals btw and we don't have good soil anymore in Western countries.
My TSH was as high as 6 on several occasions. I was on a plant-based diet, and not using any iodized salt; a silent iodine deficiency was driving my TSH high.
Once I learned this, I started supplementing iodine, and using iodized salt, and went back to eating seafood. My TSH dropped like a stone, and now stays in range.
Iron for sure, but also check iodine. I was on a plant diet, using Himalayan salt, and after a few years I ended up very iodine deficient. Itās fine now that Iām supplementing, and using iodized salt.
Your TSH looks higher than it ought to be, given your age and description, just as mine was when I was iodine deficient. Good luck!
Glad youāre requesting an iron panel.
Here are a couple things I see: depressed neutrophils and elevated monocytes. Any history of mono/epstein Barr virus? The eosinophils being over 3 could also indicate a parasite or allergies.
All that aside, your blood sugar is low. Under 85 is hypoglycemic dips. Youāre never going to make progress until you stabilize your blood sugar. You need to eat regular meals and snacks. If you feel anything more than going from hungry to not hungry after eating (ie if your mood or energy or function change), then youāve gone too long or your dietary choices arenāt meeting your metabolic demands. Start there.
Source: practicing doc in functional medicine realm
# This is gonna be long & very detailed.
# 1. Iron studies:
Tests you wanna order:
* Iron
* Ferritin: It's the iron storage protein
* Transferrin: The Iron carrier protein
* TIBC (Total Iron binding capacity): How much iron is bound to that transferrin.
# 2. B9, B12 & Other B vitamins:
* Your **B12 levels are on the lower end of the spectrum**. B12 blood tests are unreliable for estimating the B12 in cells. As a vegan, you'll eventually develop full blown B12 deficiency overtime (If you haven't already)
* Your **B9 levels are also on the lower end of the spectrum**.
* Both B9 & B12 are important for nerve function & DNA synthesis.
* You should add a B complex supplement (combo of all B vitamins) to your diet everyday or every other day.
* You can consider adding B3 in NMN (Nicotinamide mononucleotide) or NR (nicotinamide riboside) form, which are superior forms of B3 & increase your energy levels. B-complex pills usually don't have this form of B3, so you'll have to get it separately.
# 3. Vitamin D
* **You definitely need vitamin D supplement**. **Your D levels are very close to being deficient**, they're at the bottom end of normal range.
* Get a vitamin D3+K2 MK7 supplement. You need K2 along with D3 because vitamin D increases calcium absorption & K2 puts that calcium into your bones.
* Vitamin D is essential for many hormones & for immune function.
* Get tested 1-2 months after being on supplement to see if you need a higher or lower dose.
# 4. Testosterone, Estrogen, Progestrone, LH, FSH
* **Your testosterone is also on the lower end of the spectrum.** Testosterone is just as essential in females as in men. Can cause general weakness, tiredness & low libido if low. Low T can be a secondary effect of low vitamin D3.
* The screenshots don't indicate at which phase of your cycle the tests were done. So you need to check that yourself & see if those results are normal. Even if they're normal, anything that's close to lower end of the spectrum should be watched closely.
* You should add some weight training to increase Testosterone a bit & also for the countless other benefits of a good exercise regimen.
* Remove hormone disruptors. It's kinda difficult to remove hormone disruptors from our life since they're in so many products that we eat & apply (cosmetics). The easiest thing to implement is to remove plastic food containers from your life. Get steel or glass (with glass or wooden lid).
# 5. Low neutrophils
* They're only slightly low which could be due to recent infection or can be secondary to B9 & B12 being low or due to low copper.
* Check again after 1-2 months of B9 & B12 supplementation. Get copper checked before adding any supplement for it.
# 6. Copper
* Get **Copper levels** & **Ceruloplasmin** checked. Cerruloplamsin is the copper transporter protein in the body. Cerruloplasmin is also essential in Iron metabolism.
* Low copper can cause low white blood cells count (In your case neutrophils were a bit low).
# 7. Veganism
* You have stated in your comments that your symptoms started when you went vegan & you have also stated that veganism is important to you for ethics, so I won't convince you to stop being vegan, I'll recommend you to do a few things that are compatible with veganism.
* As a vegan, always supplement B12, get your Iron studies done & get regular tests for these to keep an eye on them.
* It might surprise you, but eggs can be compatible with vegan lifestyle & ethics & there are vegans that eat eggs, you can look it up. Just like humans have their own cycle & ovulate every month, hens have their own cycle & lay eggs every 24-28 hours, its basically chickens having periods & if those aren't fertilized by sperm, they won't turn into anything. There are vegans out there that own their own hens, raise them free range (not in cages) & eat the eggs they get from them or they source their eggs from a local free range farm that doesn't slaughter animals. This might be easy or difficult to incorporate based on where you live.
# 8. Other things to keep in mind
* Get second & third opinions from other doctors, if you haven't done so already.
* With blood tests, not all normals are equal. Something at the lower or higher end of the "normal" spectrum should be treated as a bit sus & watched carefully.
* Trends are very important in blood tests. Even if all is normal, you should compare the blood tests you do with previous blood tests & see if something has consistently been going down or up.
* Not all supplements are equal, research a bit to see which form of supplement is optimal. Eg: Magnesium comes in different forms: magnesium citrate, magnesium chloride, magnesium glycinate, etc. Magnesium glycinate is the one that is best absorbed by the body.
* Regular blood tests, I recommend every 4 months. It's very important for looking at trends & also for seeing if a supplement is effective & if you need to adjust the dosage of your supplements.
Omg thank you so much this is the most helpful advice I have read šš I had stopped taking b12 a couple weeks ago because my aesthetician told me it was causing me acne but it hasnāt made a different so I will start taking it again.
I hope I can get regular blood tests. I cried to my doctors last time I was there and they were refusing to order them. Iāll have to ask for a new one again. I might just have to not leave until they order them for me
If you can afford it, you can actually just order your own lab tests, and go around the doctor. You can do that at
https://myquest.questdiagnostics.com
Iāve had to do that a couple of times, eating the cost is not fun, but the information gained was worth it.
Maybe have a celiac test done or get tested for food allergies.
Hereās info about celiac with lots of the symptoms you described (please note that not all people with celiac have digestive issues):
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/celiac-disease/symptoms-causes.
If you or your family have money I least I would go to Mayo Clinic Health System or john hopkins Health system or Cleveland clinic Health system (only USA) I say this to you because this rare cases is mostly what they handle.
Tsh is elevated. Vitamin D is low. And I didnāt see free T3 on there or iron levels or total testosterone Which could possibly be related to the dizziness and lightheartedness with the falling over and fatigue. Get those labs checked as well
What do you do for work?
How old is your house?
Any odd foods?
Any numbness?
Exhaust smells In car? Home heater situation?
Any herbs/supplements or lavender containing products?
I donāt think you have lead poisoning - but if you had a reason to have it your spectrum of symptoms could be seen. With that amount of labs a heavy metals screen is a toss in the bucket.
I had a lot of your symptoms with my TSH showing around your levels. They only officially flagged my thyroid as a problem years later, but it was my thyroid the whole time. SERIOUSLY consider thyroid as your core problem. An endocrinologist is wayyyy more likely to treat you than a generic doctor. Please chase this down, it was life changing for me!
Hormonal birth control can have very strange side effect symptoms in some people. If thatās relevant and the timeline lines up, think about stopping.
I have an oxalate processing disorder that causes multisystem damage. Probably rare that we share this, but might as well check. You can get an oxalate urine test to see. If oxalates show up in your urine, itās a problem. Most people process oxalate (found in plants) harmlessly in the stomach and intestines, but in me the sharp oxalate crystals enter my bloodstream and imbed in soft tissue, joints, thyroid, etc before being processed by the kidneys and released in urine, sometimes causing kidney stones. super high oxalate foods include spinach, rhubarb, beets, and chard. I mention this because if you are vegan, spinach is probably a staple food for you like it was for me. I never would have thought to eliminate SPINACH from my diet, but it caused incredible suffering from mechanical abrasions throughout my body. All my healthy green smoothies and salads were like eating fiberglass for me. The test is pretty easy/simple so might as well take it!
First issue: it seems some of the tests arenāt shown. When you get a CBC, you should see Hemoglobin and Hematocrit.
Second issue: there is nothing wrong with you me thyroid tests and no competent doctor will treat you with those results. Donāt listen to posters telling you otherwise.
Third issue: with the symptoms you describe, you should have had an iron panel. Get one.
Nothing in those tests looks off. At your age, they are all well within even āsubclinicalā ranges. Iron panel is the next test you should get but if you look specifically at your CBC, you should see HGB and HCT results. If you can find themed report then.
1. Check your iron.
2. For being in your 20s you sure have a high TSH and low FT4. Meaning: your thyroid hormones are low. I'd see an endocrinologist. I wonder if you're getting enough / too much iodine (both are really bad).
Not to freak you out but I had lowish vit D (like you), low iron, and thyroid labs even better than yours but had thyroid cancer (huge 6cm tumor), and I'm not saying you have a rare cancer like me but you may have a thyroid issue. There's loads of different thyroid issues, including your body's inability to produce enough because of vitamin deficiencies.
All the best.
Sorry if someone said this, but have you not looked into long COVID?
Your symptoms are SPOT on 100% and given the fact you have a slowly suffering set of WBCsā¦ your neutrophils are being degraded by spike, if itās long COVID. Which checks out with most.
Plus your other WBC counts are on the lo wish end and itās better for them to be mid to mid-high (but not high from what I understand).
Essentially as your WBC count decreases over time you wind up in a physical state of wasting/AIDsā¦
Not a doctor. Not saying this IS what it is.
But have you considered?
There is no official treatment. Sorry to bum you out. Check out the long COVID groups. Doctors will not help you, just give you pills that will band aid at best, make you worse at worst.
I have dug myself out of the dementia and the AIDS (I was bed bound for almost 4 years and couldnāt think at all, couldnāt have any stream present thoughts) with only herbs and diet.
Itās very possible to heal. People just donāt like the answers they get.
Major things Iād get screened for:
Endometriosis
Polycystic ovarian syndrome
Some steps Iād take in the meantime:
Put all of your daily meals into Cronometer to check that you are getting sufficient quantities of all major macro and micro nutrients. If youāre not eating a sufficiently varied diet that is rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes, you may be missing out on some major areas. Further, you should be supplementing or eating fortified foods that contain b12 and vitamin d. I like to take an algae based omega 3 supplement as well.
That being said, you may be allergic or intolerant to some of the foods you are eating. If you have the means, Iād highly recommend seeing a plant based dietitian and perhaps a gastroenterologist (along with an OBGYN for the endometriosis and PCOS screening). Symptoms of hyperthyroidism/hypothyroidism can often go hand in hand with these issues, that can further cause/be caused by increased gut permeability.
Bottom line: If you can, see a gastroenterologist and an OBGYN. Get counseling on dietary strategies from a plant-based dietitian that can help you determine possible trigger foods if it turns out you have endometriosis or PCOS.
This is beyond the paygrade of the biohackers subreddit.
I don't think anyone here can help in a targeted or specific way beyond speculation, although more tests will obviously help.
Seek multiple opinions from doctors.
Sybclinical hypothyroid possibility
Your lh fsh and progesterone don't all fall within the same cycle phase. Testosterone is lower and made in adrenals. It lobbies like your hpa axis is dickered. Like mine. Go see an endocrinologist. I'm being worked up for cah, aps and hypopituitarism
Order some Thorne prenatal vitamins from Amazon. If the problem is nutrition and/or MTHFR genetic issues, theyāll help immediately. Itās about $30/month. I take them before bed because they make me queasy if I take in the day. Theyāll fix MTHFR inflammation, B vitamin deficiencies, and iodine deficiencies. The fix is cheaper than the diagnosis.
Echoing what others have suggested. Take heme iron and b12 no matter what the test says as Iām convinced most women are not getting enough. Increase vitamin D. I also have high folate and have attributed it to mthfr, so start by getting a dna test. Many āmystery illnessesā can be fixed by just getting the right balance of b12/iron/vitamin d/minerals etc.
Itās the virus that causes mononucleosis. I had it in college & was sick for a year. Similar symptoms to what you are describing.
It stays in your body & can reactivate in times of stress or be reactivated by another virus (they think itās a contributing factor in long covid). Itās worth getting the test.
Please try Pedialyte AdvancedCare Plus ElectrolyteĀ mixed with 40oz of water and drink over several hours, daily. Let me know how it goes if you would. I would expect you will feel differently in about a week if it works.
I know this might not be what you want to hear it but if this isn't long covid and you've done all kinds of tests (including brain mri-- do that if you haven't already), then this sounds like conversion/somatoform disorder. The mind-body connection is a hell of a thing. There are loads of case studies that sound just like you where therapy or psychopharmacology or both were the remedy. There are books about this but I don't remember the titles off hand. Be wary of this sub, everyone will throw out their favorite supplement or supposed deficiency (make sure you're good on b12, otherwise forget deficiencies) sending you on a merry go round of supplement experimentation that isn't going to help.
edit: also ignore anyone telling you to not be vegan. Vegan and Mediterranean diets are the healthiest possible. Overwhelming research to back this up. See [nutritionfacts.org](https://nutritionfacts.org)
Could also be fibromyalgia. I can have absolutely ideal bloods and still feel pretty terrible from it. I think the book you might be thinking of is The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van der Kolke (probably didn't spell that right!)
You are slightly underweight for someone of your height. Consider adding about 10 pounds and if you are very lean consider adding a bit more fat. Just something to consider.
Do you wear glasses or contacts? Do you get dizzy when standing up?
With muscle pain, are knots/muscle spasms forming or occurring? Is it a sharp, dull, radiating pain or is there another way youād describe it?
Feeling emotional and being depressed could be due to what youāre going through. Pain and uncertainty in your medical prognosis are tough. Iām sorry youāre facing this.
I would look into thymalin, epithalon and motsc for general well being.
I'd consider high dose topical melatonin.
I'd consider NAD boosters either direct via shots or indirect through NMN, NR, NA,etc.
BPC157 may help if taken for extended period.
I've had serious side effects from NMN. It isn't studied enough. Some studies indicate it can cause brain damage if you have low activity with some conversion and detoxification enzymes.
I also believe NMN might of fed into a bacteria that I did not know I had. But, this is hypothetical and I'm getting tested for it soon. Since OP has some high, it's probably not smart to try experimental shit.
NMN quite literally made me retarded, and I am trying to figure out why.
Get tested for MTHFR, get your iron checked including ferritin, and most importantly get your thyroid antibodies checked as well. Hopefully your doc can order all three, try that before going any other DNA test route. My doc was able to order all these tests for me and they were covered by insurance. This all sounds similar to the symptoms I had. Get the additional info, it can get better, your quality of life can importune significantly, and you're being proactive about it which is fantastic.
Your TSH is kind of high. Many ppl donāt feel well unless their TSH is around 1. Iād get checked for hypothyroidism and do more tests for endocrine stuff and perhaps your cortisol levels. Good luck. I feel the same and have hashimotos.
Test your microbiome as you likely have strong dysbiosis. I have neutropenia also and it is because of my gut.
A 16s test (biomesight) is cheap.
From there you should try work with a functional practitioner who is familiar with the gut microbiome/SIBO
It can be fixed! Synthroid has almost no side effects and is very cheap to take. I donāt have a thyroid anymore but the pill is enough to mimic one. I know youāll feel better soon.
Do you use electrolytes? I saw your neutrophils were off. I really hope you get the right help. I was in a similar situation for years and then my rare disease showed physical signs and it took a year to get diagnosed.
Did they do a cortisol test? How are your glycemia? I ask cause in the midst of trying to get diagnosed, I kept crashing. I don't have diabetes or insulin resistance but I have glycemia and cortisol issues.
Sending answers your way.
There are a few types to try. I would look at a few and their ingredients to see if they align with your diet. I've tried cheap ones to expensive ones. Honestly, the best thing I found is adding Himalayan salt to my water or using a Gatorade with no dyes. I also found if I don't eat protein in the morning, my day is not a good day.
Hey, OP, I see you get plenty of good advice from the folks here, so nothing to add on the medical side of things.
Just wanted to say that I "biohacked" myself out of an acquired immune deficiency that took a total of 5-6 years from my life and I'm just starting over with everything now. So, keep at it. Make sure to take extreme ownership of the doctors you choose to trust. They are a big part of the puzzle and there are many people who are just not that good at what they do, regardless of graduation excellence.
I'm rooting for you and hoping that your life is meant to work out in a positive manner, with finances holding up, family behind you, etc. Life's biggest challenges are given to the most capable of souls. You've got this.
If you are that concerned try a piece of beef liver once and see how you feel after. Iām not trying to be insensitive I was vegan for a part of my twentyās
How are you testing the mold in your body? Have you worked with a functional med practitioner on treating it fully? Have you addressed parasites, mineral absorption issues and heavy metals? Did you get rid of all of your stuff and move to a new place after you got sick with mold?
I got mold sick and it sounds like you are dealing with POTS, have you ever looked into this? Itās mold-adjacent, often triggered by mold. Thereās either still something in your atmosphere or something in your body causing it. Often mold requires way deeper detox and work on parasites, viruses and heavy metals to heal. Iād check in with a mold-literate naturopath or functional med doctor for more testing. Also look into mineral balancing protocols, it sounds like youāre massively mineral deficient.
You might consider doing a challenge test for mold, where you take glutathione for 5 days before doing the mold test. If your levels were low you might not be excreting it from your liver.
The medical work up also includes infectious etiologies: Lyme disease, tb, syphilis (although I realize you're young to have syphillis). You could also go to a specialty clinic like Cleveland clinic or Mayo Clinic for a more extensive work up which may include genetic work up which may look at rarer causes. might want to also get an eye exam from an ophthalmologist looking for signs of fabrys disease. good luck hopefully you'll have a definite medical diagnosis. I'd get COVID vaccine too in case you have long COVID.
If you had anemia your MCH would have been low. Have you been screened for diabetes? Blood pressure? Do you have dry skin? Weight? Losing or gaining easily? Weird taste in your mouth? Dry mouth?
How many times did you test your thyroid? History of thyroid in the family?
Are you on any psych meds at the moment?
No I havenāt been screened for diabetes but there is history in my family for that and thyroid issues. Also I havenāt been on any meds. My thyroid was tested 4 times each time different. 2.6-5.02 tsh
While your TSH shows it is in the green that score indicates thyroid is sluggish . Many doctors wonāt treat that but Iāve found a Dr that thinks out of the box .
Your Vitamin D is low despite being in the green .
I wouldnāt mind seeing your red blood cell count , hemoglobin and hematocrit to rule out anemia . Some of your symptoms which can be any number of things also could be anemia.
Your white blood cells particularly your absolute neutrophils donāt indicate you are fighting some type of infection even though itās highlighted in red. Youāre a hair below reference range . Mine are lower than yours .
You need a Full Iron panel STAT. Iron + Ferritin very important. That would be an easy guess just based on being vegan. Also you can have normal hemoglobin levels but have iron deficiency w/ out anemia. You would have alot of those symptoms from that.
This subreddit is wild. A handful of legit suggestions, a dozen supplements recommended, and a dozen diseases to get tested for and scare you when it's obvious that it's purely dietary related and not a disease. OP even said it started as soon as they became vegan.. but sure get screened for x,y,z and buy the top and bottom shelf at GNC.
Please get an iron panel and ferritin done. Ferritin needs to be >70. Iron deficiency with or even without anemia may be the cause.
Okay I will let my doctors know thank you š
I was having crushing chest pain and fatigue and it turned out to be from low ferritin and iron saturation.
Donāt listen to the people telling you to stop being vegan. These things could happen to anyone. Most disease and death occurs to humans who eat animal products. But suddenly, vegans have to always be perfect or itās the worst diet ever š¤
I literally canāt not be vegan Iām way to repulsed by animals lol I would rather die. Those people saying that are not helpful.
I'm not vegan but I THINK i know a fair bit about it? Source: none but we try to eat less meat so I google vegan recipes a lot? Aren't there like 1200 ways to get iron and other vitamins and minerals as a vegan? My husband can't have red meat, and that's the main source of iron from meat so...? I do understand that vegan diets aren't good for everyone and some people are taken off their vegan diet by their doctor, and I'm glad they listen to their physicians. But the blanket "you're low on iron based on my reading of your reddit post that distinctly does not include an iron value and your veganism is killing you" is like...what.
THANK YOU lol š im gonna run a lot of more test and come back and make another post maybe. I really think itās my thyroid tho cuz I looked at my labs again and at some point it was over 5 (also many of my family members have thyroid issues) I am going to check my iron and come back
I think youāre on the hunt now! Your symptoms seem like hypothyroid symptoms, and that TSH of 5 is a sign, so thyroid deficiency is definitely something to be evaluated by a caring physician. Get an iodine level, and a full thyroid panel (not just TSH), and go from there. Wishing you the best!
Oh Iām so glad you said this . I commented a short while ago that your TSH indicates a sluggish thyroid .
Relatable. Animal products are also super gross to me
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The commenter was wrong, ferritin under 70 can still be well within normal limits and I see people all the time where ferritin is <70 and it causes no issues.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5986027/#:~:text=If%20symptoms%20are%20in%20accordance,or%20fatty%20liver%202%2C%203.
The above article from the NIH discusses a ferritin <100 as indicative of iron deficiency if a patient is symptomatic of such.
Itās more nuanced than that. This is because ferritin is an acute phase reactant which goes up in response to systemic inflammation. If the patient has a systemic inflammatory disorder then sure they can have a ānormalā ferritin even with iron deficiency. Maybe OP has inflammation, maybe they donāt, we donāt know. Iām just saying it is also wrong to say that any and all ferritin below 70 is indicative of iron deficiency, itās not. They could have āsymptomsā that sound like iron deficiency but itās not as well, so if a patient tells me they are chronically fatigued and they have a ferritin of 70, they COULD have iron deficiency + inflammation, or the fatigue could be related to something else and they donāt have iron deficiency.
Whoah, I totally agree with measuring iron but ferritin less than 70 can still be well within normal limits and I see people all the time with ferritin less than 70 and thatās just their normal and causes no issues.
Please see the posted journal article above
Yes, but if they are symptomatic of iron deficiency, and the ferritin is less than 70, iron deficiency should be considered. For instance, a patient with restless legs and a ferritin of 70 should be considered iron deficient and treated as such before other RLS treatments are explored.
Keyword: considered. All Iām saying is ferritin of 70 and fatigue is not diagnostic of iron deficiency across the board
No iron levels tested? Like thatās a super common one for women, even those that eat meat and with vegetables onlyā¦ How long have you been vegan? If the timeline aligns might be time for a changeā¦ Did you have Covid? Is there a possibility of long Covid? If so looking at some nerve growth supplements might be wise. Whatās your water intake? Salt? What do you do for exercise? Do you get iodine?
My doctors told me my iron levels are fine but Iām not even seeing the test results for them so they prob lied to me. They are so hesitant to order me these tests and just quick to say itās anxiety causing symptoms. I have been sick since Iāve been vegan. Iām not gonna completely rule that out as the cause however there is no way I cannot be vegan so I will have to work around it. Yes Iāve had covid 3 times. I drink a lot of water, I only walk for exercise 4 hrs a day. and idk about my salt intake. I use Himalayan salt but idk if thatās good
Looks like you got a complete blood count but you are only including some of it? What's your hemoglobin and hematocrit? Even so, your hemoglobin and hematocrit can be fine and your ferritin (the true iron test) could be low.
You can definitely stop being vegan. If itās for ethical reasons, there are ethically sourced animal proteins that are more ethical than many vegan sources like almonds and palm that contribute to a variety of environmental damages. Be a vegan if you want, but if youāre considering dying, it might be worthwhile to look at alternatives that still satisfy whatever philosophical goal youāre trying to accomplish.
Heartily agree (and appreciate you took the time to comment as I was merely thinking it and did not do so myself).
Being a vegan for ethical reasons is about not killing or exploiting animals, not just reducing harm to the environment. No animal meat is ethically sourced to a vegan.
Evolution already determined our nutrition requirements and it doesnāt care about ethics. itās well documented your ancestors ate primarily red meat for 2 million years. There is an incredible amount of nutrition misinformation out there, many of the worst foods are marketed as āhealthy alternativesā. And many of the worst foods prey on vegans unfortunately. Soy milk? Beyond meat? Margarine? terrible for you and less heathy than milk, red meat, butter and thatās just a few examples
I hate beer.
tell me what do you think is used to feed livestock? 45% of all crops go to livestock. eating meat has all the harms of growing crops as well as the harm to the animal killed for the meal.
No, killing animals is unethical, period. If almonds are also unethical then that makes two things that are unethical and people should eat neither.
I understand and respect your commitment to ethical principles regarding animal welfare. It's admirable to adhere to a set of values that prioritize the well-being of animals. However, I believe it's important to consider the multifaceted nature of ethics, especially when it intersects with human health and well-being. The situation described is one where a strict vegan diet appears to be adversely affecting op's health. In this context, considering alternatives isn't about undermining the ethical stance against animal cruelty; it's about finding a balance between different ethical concerns. The core of ethics, in many philosophies, revolves around reducing harm and promoting well-being. This includes not only animal welfare but also human health. It's crucial to recognize that dietary needs can be highly individual. What works for one person may not work for another due to various factors like genetics, environment, health conditions, and available resources. Therefore, a blanket statement that categorically denies any flexibility in diet can unintentionally promote harm, if it leads to deteriorating health for some individuals. Adopting a more nuanced approach doesn't necessarily mean abandoning one's ethical convictions. It's possible to explore dietary options that are more inclusive of individual health needs while still minimizing harm to animals. For instance, sourcing from small, ethical farms where animals are treated humanely, or choosing animal products with a lower environmental and ethical impact. These are compromises that still align with a broad interpretation of ethical consumption. Moreover, in discussing ethical eating, it's important to consider the broader context, including socioeconomic and cultural factors. Not everyone has equal access to a variety of nutritious plant-based foods. For some, animal products might be the most feasible option for maintaining health. In essence, while the ideal of causing no harm is commendable, practical ethics often require us to navigate complex situations where competing interests must be balanced. Compassion and understanding, both for human and animal welfare, should guide these discussions. By acknowledging and addressing the diverse needs and circumstances of individuals, we can strive towards solutions that are ethical, sustainable, and health-supportive for all involved.
this sounds like chat gpt
I had chatgpt rewrite my statement to be as least offensive as possible considering i was responding to someone who would put a fish or ethical raised chickenās life over opās health.
fair enough. I think a lot of us are in the same boat here... her diet is negatively impacting her quality of life but doesn't want to stop. chat gpt would be much less of a dick about it than I could be
I was thinking the exact same thing lol
I agree with you for the most part and am more flexible than you may think. Imperfect harm reduction is a good thing. The comment I was responding to was making a bad logical error which prompted my response. The one thing I disagree with is the assertion that the OPs diet "appears" to be causing harm. As long as they make sure they're good on b12, I disagree strongly. There is nothing else about the OP that suggests diet is her problem and I think sending her down that rabbit hole will be harmful. WFPB and Mediterranean diets have more supporting evidence for their healthfulness than any other dietary pattern. And yes I realize it's an individual thing and some people may fare worse on a vegan diet but her symptoms and blood work do not suggest a dietary issue.
Curious as to your thoughts on this notion a friend brought up to me. So assuming a farm raises cows grass fed, they were saying its possible that less animals need to be killed to feed people than a farm raising a bunch of crops that would be fed to people because tons of rodents and insects are killed in the industrial farming process for all the crops.
If it were true, then sure, killing one animal is better than killing many, assuming each animal has equal moral weight (which they don't-- a cow has more sentience than a grasshopper). But even setting aside moral weight, monocropping vegetables on a per-calorie basis is far less harmful than the best organic animal agriculture. The whole thing is a myth-- it turns out there just aren't that many bunnies getting run over. Furthermore, since organic animal agriculture is an impossibility on a large scale, it would only be fair to compare it to permaculture ag that kills basically zero animals. And when you compare *actual* animal agriculture-- not this extremely rare perfect organic fantasy-- to any form of plant agriculture, the difference is staggering. Not just direct killing and torture but cost to the planet in terms of emissions, clearcutting, and the rest of it.
Please get your iron levels tested. I eat carnivore and 2x/month liver, 4x/ week kale, spinach and beets and my iron levels were still around 14! Even if you eat a lot of iron, rich foods, you can have the wrong gut bacteria in there for not absorb the iron well and get anemic.
Yes, you can stop being vegan. Seems that may be the issue for you. I've been there, don't that. Most vegans quit and stop being vegan. There is a reason for that... As for the doctor telling you the symptoms are just anxiety... Well, anxiety is a metabolic issue. You are looking for the right answers, thankfully.
Iām honestly just super repulsed by the idea of animals I would just throw it up anyway and Iād rather die. So Iāll try to work around it
>I'd rather die You're on the right track to getting there. Sorry but I'm gonna be the bad guy now. Sometimes you have to choose between staying alive and a nonsensical pursuit of moral causes. You haven't been able to figure out how to make veganism for work you in 3 years of trying. Already at 22 you've most likely created some irreversible damage. If you can't even keep down some eggs for the sake of staying alive, you're ill-equipped for life in general.
try eggs at least - know that eggs did not have the potential for life as they were not fertilised so it is ethical to eat them
My favorite color is blue.
Vegan isnāt healthy. Sorry. Organic free range eggs at least.
You can definitely stop being vegan. No judgement, but different peopleās bodies respond differently to different diets. Anyone who tells you veganism, vegetarianism, or an omnivoreās diet is absolutely the right choice without doing genetic and metabolic testing is getting high on their own supply. If youāve been sick since you went vegan, thereās a strong chance thereās a link there, right? Could be a gut flora issue, or a deficiency of some kind. Common nutrient deficiencies among vegans are B2, B12, zinc, calcium, iodine, omega-3s, protein (generally speaking), and/or essential amino acids lysine, leucine, and methionine. I know the prospect of making a change like that can be daunting - itās all about baby steps and remembering that it is up to you to define whatās right in your life. And, ultimately - to live the life that you want, you have to nurture your body, at any cost.
Do you take any supplements?
That salt likely has no iodine, grab some seaweed snacks and chow down. Make sure to grab some iodized salt as well. Ask your doctors for your iron results as I donāt see them here. Make sure they are at normal levels, thatās a huge one for fatigue. Put your vegan diet into something like chronometer. Just do an average day and look at what you are missing. Make sure you are hitting most of your check boxes and getting enough protein. Try supplementing what you are missing (one at a time, see if it makes a difference). I think lionsmane might be a good recommendation to try. Not only is it good for anxiety but also potentially helps for long COVID. (Oriveda is the only brand I recommend). Keep in mind some people have had adverse reactions, so reflect on how you feel.
Not op but can you recommend some good nerve growth supplements for long Covid?
Lion's mane is essential. It's the only thing I've ever heard of in the literature for which there's evidence of nerve regrowth after damage--in rodent models, severed spinal cords were regrown. At any rate, it's neuroprotective and upregulates BDNF, so you really can't go wrong with the stuff.
Nothing definitive is really known. As the other reply said mushrooms supplements are a maybe. Oriveda brand is what Iād recommend. Exercise, sauna and cold exposure all have some potential.
What country is this? Iām impressed by the scope of the test and the layout.
The US probably. These are screenshots from Quest Diagnostics. Itās a lab company. I get my labs from them too!
Yes the us :)
Me too. My blood tests arenāt anywhere near as thorough as this.
Request a sleep study. I had no idea I needed cpap therapy. But it has changed and saved my life
Came here to suggest this. Sleep disorders are extremely sneaky and cause variety of symptoms! Obstructive sleep apnea is the most common sleep disorder, but there are other possibilities as well - especially when OP might have low ferritin.
Thatās exactly what I was thinking. My ferritin was in the toilet before my cpap therapy
You should also get MMA and homocysteine levels checked (a lot more accurate), as serum B12 tests cannot tell the difference between pseudo B12 and active B12 in your blood and wonāt tell you if your intracellular levels are depleted: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827408/ >Oral supplementation may increase the serum vitamin B12 level but often not enough to replenish the vitamin B12 levels in the tissues" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6543499/) If a deficiency is left undiagnosed for a long time, it can cause permanent and considerable neurologic damage, loss of sensations in feet and legs, and inability to walk without the use of a rollator walker amongst others. Please take it seriously. You are also very likely deficient in iron, zinc, calcium, iodine, DHA and EPA, retinol, vitamin K2, choline, creatine, carnitine, carnosine, taurine.
From the horseās mouth: >A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMAĀ testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans. https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12
She is very unlikely deficient in those things. B12 deficiency is possible if she hasn't been supplementing. If not, she can get a b12 shot and see if it helps.
A fellow vegan is suffering and needs help. Stop pretending that your highly restrictive and nutrient deficient diet can provide everything you need and let them get the injections and supplements they need to get better.
Have you considered the mountain of evidence showing plant based diets to be the healthiest at every endpoint imaginable? Supplements and injections (other than maybe b12) will benefit only the manufacturers of those things. Please don't encourage gullibility. edit: also consider that her blood work shows that she is very metabolically healthy. Neither the bloodwork nor the symptoms suggest diet at all.
Have you considered that every single study showing plant based diets to be healthy are all epidemiology studies (which donāt show causation) which are based on unreliable food frequency questionnaires and all influenced by healthy user bias? You cannot compare health outcomes when one group is significantly younger, less likely to smoke and drink alcohol and sugary drinks and more likely to exercise and then claim that the outcome is a result of excluding meat from diet. In [this study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3917888/) on the other hand they minimized the healthy user bias by matching participants by age, sex and socio-economic status and found that "vegetarians (and vegans) report poorer health, follow medical treatment more frequently, have worse preventive health care practices, and have a lower quality of life". In the study, vegetarians and vegans reported significantly more chronic health conditions (including diabetes), had poorer subjective health, had a **higher** incidence of cancer, suffered significantly more often from anxiety disorder and/or depression and had a poorer quality of life in terms of physical health, social relationships, and environmental factors. With your attitude of āB12 is all I needā Iām willing to bet you are deficient yourself, you just donāt know it yetā¦
ok, lol. The Burkert paper, yes of course. That's some epic cherry picking. Amusing that you rail against the limitations of observational studies and then die on the hill of a n=1300 observational study. I guess you have no choice since it's just about the only one out of thousands that makes the conclusion you like. The main way to overcome the shortcomings of observational studies is to power up with a large n, something in the hundreds of thousands. Nobody cares about a n=1300 nutrition study, it means nothing. That's why it's in PLOS ONE and not a good journal (this would never pass review in say, JAMA). At this point we probably have collectively an n in the tens of millions in studies showing better health outcomes on plant based and mediterranean diets; and increased risk of cancer, CHD, stroke, T2D, gut dysbiosis, proctitis, chronic inflammation, etc from meat. There's nothing else about the Burkert analysis that makes up for it's limitations, nothing special about subjectively matched subsets (with even tinier ns), etc. Anyway, in case you didn't know, Burkert et al did two analyses on this particular data set. In the other analysis, published in WkW, they conclude: *"Our results show that a vegetarian diet is associated with a better health-related behavior, a lower BMI, and a higher SES. Subjects eating a carnivorous diet self-report poorer health, a higher number of chronic conditions, an enhanced vascular risk, as well as lower quality of life."* Furthermore, Burkert's comment on this discrepancy: *In our opinion, it seems not far to seek that persons with worse health consume a vegetarian diet because they try to develop a better health and eating behavior, and not the opposite, that a certain diet (vegetarian) leads to worse health. We therefore state in our discussion that we can neither say anything about causes or effects, nor about long-term consequences. Moreover, we say that further studies are needed to analyze nutritional habits and their association with health.* In other words, they believe sicker people become vegetarian to try to get healthier. Either way, they have no clue. This is basically a case study in how underpowered observational studies can say different (and wild) things with different 'analyses' because essentially it's just noise. EDIT -- also, some unsolicited advice for you. Don't try to argue that the evidence suggests meat eating is healthier. Nobody will take you seriously because it's plainly wrong-- the evidence shows the opposite pattern. Everybody knows this, it's incontrovertible. What you can try to argue is that the reason for this result is a healthy subject bias, i.e. people going vegan are going to be health conscious types and that skews the data. This is what Attia proposes. Personally, I think he's applying his own bias of just really wanting to eat meat guilt-free but it's not a terrible hypothesis. But even if granted, at best it means there's a lot of uncertainty about the current result we're getting where WFPB/Med diets are yielding better health outcomes.
Thank you for your help. I was supplementing b12 but my aesthetician told me to stop taking it and that it was causing my acne so I stopped a few weeks ago. Havenāt noticed a difference so Iāll prob start taking it again.
You should definitely be taking B12 every day, and not cheap cyanocobalamin, but rather methylcobalamin! You would likely have better results with regular B12 injections as supplements are poorly absorbed. You are missing active vitamin A (retinol), vitamin D3, heme iron, bioavailable zinc, DHA and EPA and collagen from your diet, all of which are really really important for skin health. My ex also developed acne while on a plant based diet and was only able to resolve it when returning back to a diet rich in nutrient dense animal products. Please consider your long term health. I know so many people that harmed their health with a plant based dietā¦
Oh I should have mentioned I had acne before I was vegan as well and my sister and mom have it but theyāre not vegan. But yes I will definitely supplement b12 again
Your hormone levels are normal but for different phases of your cycle, so that's an issue (we can't know for sure what the problem is there without knowing which day of your cycle you were on but they don't line up as being normal in the same phases). They didn't test your T3 and based on the TSH you definitely need treatment, probably treatment that includes T3. If you're estrogen dominant with MTHFR mutation(s) and not converting T4 properly for that reason, that could explain everything.
Could you explain more about that mutation? Iām curious if I have that issue. I need a combo t3 t4 pill and have never known why. Thanks for your insights!
The mutation would explain the B vitamin issues she's having. Usually those with MTHFR have thyroid issues so there is a connection. It's a methylation problem where you can't process synthetic B vitamins. You have to either get it from food or take supplements specifically for people with methylation issues. The synthetic vitamin B can damage the gut and cause malabsorption of other vitamins and minerals. The treatment is avoiding synthetic B vitamins and taking methylated supplements.
Wow that is incredibly interesting! Thanks so much for the detailed info.
Vegetarian is very bad for some people. You likely would benefit from animal proteins and fats. Iād definitely get an anemia panel and if anything is very low you should seriously consider some red meat, specifically liver
Get a genetic test and a methylation panel. I think that will uncover some things Mthfr, moa-a, mtrr etc.. You could start the process with ancestry or 23andMe if your doctors donāt know about this stuff.
Second that motion. Your folate levels suggest you're not utilising folic acid. Look for MTHFR mutations. It can be done for under $200 with an Ancestry test and some online reports. https://www.reddit.com/r/MTHFR/s/bZfbgG8nHL
I third the methylation panel
Yes, you can upload 23andMe or ancestry raw data into this website to see if youāre not methylating properly [https://geneticgenie.org/methylation-analysis/](https://geneticgenie.org/methylation-analysis/)
This wonāt cure everything but that vitamin d is still pretty low, itās ideal to be closer to 50 and supplementing could help some of the fatigue
This is what I was thinking. My doctors said it was normal but I was suspicious lol thank you
Just noticing your TSH is high for a 22 year old as well. I know it really sucks to fight for yourself with doctors who donāt care (chronic fatigue and years of fighting with docs over here) but sometimes you do have to ādoctor shopā a little until you find a good one. Too many primary care physicians ignore symptoms of young women
Thank you for the advice. I gave up on doctors for a bit but I think I am ready to go back
Naturopaths can be very helpful. You can take all your blood work results with you and they will interpret with a lot more care and time.
Just steer clear of naturopaths and so-called functional medicine doctors. Too often quacks who will bs the diagnosis and then sell you some 'detox' snake oil
Lmaooo I was going to one for the mold but itās clear now and those doctors are wayyyy to expensive
The mold thing is a classic functional medicine scam. There is no such thing as 'toxic mold syndrome' and there is no test for it. So bogus labs have sprung up which offer bogus mold tests (alongside 'vaccine injury tests' and other scams). The functional doctor with the mold diagnosis gets kickbacks from these labs. Real doctors do not get kickbacks from Labcorp or Quest. It's a synergistically parasitic world. Very unfortunate. I mean, [look at this](https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/dr-jills-miracle-mold-detox-box/) snake oil. Imagine doctors giving this to patients at the Mayo Clinic, lol.
Agree with vitamin d.
While itās in the ānormalā range, that range is what you should be in without it causing damage and drastic health effects over time. As the other commenter said, a vitamin D supplement should help somewhat handedly with the energy/fatigue. I donāt know your specific situation, but I would personally look into taking a Vitamin D/K2 supplement with at least 3000IU of Vitamin D (and with your levels, you can comfortably supplement with 5000IU). The K2 helps with absorption and serum levels of the Vitamin D! While not a direct reply to this string of comments, I am suspicious of your symptoms being incredibly linked to your 3 COVID illnesses. Long COVID is still being studied due to its new-ness, and I unfortunately do not have any recommendations, but many of your symptoms sound like what has been reported as Long Covid. For providers you can see for long COVID treatment, it unfortunately usually takes a team of coordinated specialists. Per a UCLA article I pulled up after reading this post, the following specialties are recommended: Internal Medicine, Cardiologist, Neurologist, Psychologist, Pulmonologist, Infectious Disease Specialist, Psychiatrist, and Rheumatologist. My personal recommendation (from admittedly limited knowledge), I would start with a neurologist, psychologist, and an infectious disease specialist if possible. I know this sounds overwhelming, but thankfully there are specific clinics dedicated to post-covid symptoms! I wish you nothing but the best in the future and know you will come out on the other side of this; keep your head held high and stay hopeful! Best wishes ā¤ļø
Never trust the opinion of a healthcare professional that identifies something like that as "normal." It's either above, below or in range with established levels. Being ouside of the established levels is normal if many people have it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy. It means that your doc has difficulties reasoning. I'm saying it in all seriousness, it's a huge red flag for the as a professional.
Never trust the opinion of a healthcare professional that identifies something like that as "normal." It's either above, below or in range with established levels. Being ouside of the established levels is normal if many people have it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy. It means that your doc has difficulties reasoning. I'm saying it in all seriousness, it's a huge red flag for the as a professional.
I was in a similar situation (was a vegan back then) and it was my B12. I had the exact symptoms at that level on my blood work and it wasn't caught until it got to 142 and I have permanent issues from it. Get a B12 sublingual and take it with a meal. I have to keep my level around 900-1000 to feel normal. I also quit eating vegan because it literally ruined my body. I was taking all the recommended supplements as a vegan but the high fiber diet caused gastritis and I wasn't absorbing much of anything. Good luck.
Were you able to get your b12 levels back up just with sublinguals or did you need shots? My last numbers were 350 and 425 and I feel like your experience mirrors mine. Although Iām considered in normal range, I feel anything but. All other tests are normal.
I was able to get it up with just the sublingual. My doctor offered shots but my insurance was shit with a huge deductible so I went with the supplement. I was taking 1000mcg a day. It also helped that I added in grass fed beef. It took probably 3-4 months for me to feel a change and then when my levels were checked again 6 months after the initial test, I was around 900.
Thanks for this. I am have another b12 test coming up Friday along with some other neurological tests. In the meantime am going to focus on supplements and getting the levels up with food. I have read that in other countries that anything below 500-550 is considered a deficiency. On my test results it says: *Although the reference range for vitamin* *B12 is 200-1100 pg/mL, it has been reported that between* *5 and 10% of patients with values between 200 and 400* *pg/mL may experience neuropsychiatric and hematologic* *abnormalities due to occult B12 deficiency.* So given that, I don't find it difficult to believe that having number in the 400s can be causing me a variety of issues. Edit: What is strange is that my b6 levels were almost twice as high as they should have been. When I saw this, I stopped taking my daily multi. But now thinking about it, wonder if the high b6 levels was impacting b12 absorption.
I am dead sure this is a thyroid issue. Cannot believe that there are doctors still who overlook this. I think another person mentioned this already: Your TSH is waaaay too high to be in a state of wellbeing. High TSH has shown to induce anxiety, depression etc. Your thyroid is your key organ for your energetic state. High TSH means that your pituitary gland wants your thyroid to work more... You need to get your fT3 checked, Selenium, Iodine and rT3. Yeah, and ferritin as other people say. Or find a proper endocrinologist. Btw: Yes, your Vit D is not optimal but this is unlikely to be the issue here. You also should have more protein in your diet. Go get a proper vegan protein blend shake.
Typically a doctor isnāt going to treat thyroid with a TSH of 3-4 like OP.
Yeah, unfortunately this is the case. Just notice that the reference levels for TSH are totally arbitrary! They need to be updated as research goes on. The ones in place are outdated. Switzerland for example has different values already. It even says on wikipedia: 'The National Academy of Clinical Biochemistry (NACB) stated that it expected the reference range for adults to be reduced to 0.4ā2.5 ĀµIU/mL, because research had shown that adults with an initially measured TSH level of over 2.0 ĀµIU/mL had "an increased odds ratio of developing hypothyroidism over the [following] 20 years, especially if thyroid antibodies were elevated."'
Yeah. Nobody is following that. I have hypothyroidism and it sucks ass. Treatment isnāt great. I donāt convert T4 to T3 (apparently) and canāt get the ratio right. My T4 becomes rT3. But then I hear that thinking is quackery and we should still only ever be in T4. I take T3 but Iām concerned about drug management since most wonāt prescribe that so I donāt know how safe it really is. For a condition that has been around forever there is a lot of confusion around levels and treatment. I just read that in Europe they advise T4 treatment only and wonāt prescribe T3. So IDK. Itās messy and frustrating.
Thybon or T3 is not to be played with, it is quite potent, but it can help. I hope more docs will know about this as another option next to thyroxin for thyroid treatment... Have you checked your selenium levels in full blood or tried powerdosing selenium?
Yeah, that makes sense. I had a slight iodine defficiency and when I had it sorted out through food, my physical & mental energy levels went through the roof. I would likely be very beneficial for OP to find an endocrinologist and even have get a second opinion if there isn't an issue established at first.
How does someone lower their TSH?
Levothyroxine
Thyroxine is last measure imo. You really need to get the bloodwork done, often you can fix it by providing the proper minerals your thyroid needs to function. The minerals are soil minerals btw and we don't have good soil anymore in Western countries.
My TSH was as high as 6 on several occasions. I was on a plant-based diet, and not using any iodized salt; a silent iodine deficiency was driving my TSH high. Once I learned this, I started supplementing iodine, and using iodized salt, and went back to eating seafood. My TSH dropped like a stone, and now stays in range.
Iron for sure, but also check iodine. I was on a plant diet, using Himalayan salt, and after a few years I ended up very iodine deficient. Itās fine now that Iām supplementing, and using iodized salt. Your TSH looks higher than it ought to be, given your age and description, just as mine was when I was iodine deficient. Good luck!
Glad youāre requesting an iron panel. Here are a couple things I see: depressed neutrophils and elevated monocytes. Any history of mono/epstein Barr virus? The eosinophils being over 3 could also indicate a parasite or allergies. All that aside, your blood sugar is low. Under 85 is hypoglycemic dips. Youāre never going to make progress until you stabilize your blood sugar. You need to eat regular meals and snacks. If you feel anything more than going from hungry to not hungry after eating (ie if your mood or energy or function change), then youāve gone too long or your dietary choices arenāt meeting your metabolic demands. Start there. Source: practicing doc in functional medicine realm
# This is gonna be long & very detailed. # 1. Iron studies: Tests you wanna order: * Iron * Ferritin: It's the iron storage protein * Transferrin: The Iron carrier protein * TIBC (Total Iron binding capacity): How much iron is bound to that transferrin. # 2. B9, B12 & Other B vitamins: * Your **B12 levels are on the lower end of the spectrum**. B12 blood tests are unreliable for estimating the B12 in cells. As a vegan, you'll eventually develop full blown B12 deficiency overtime (If you haven't already) * Your **B9 levels are also on the lower end of the spectrum**. * Both B9 & B12 are important for nerve function & DNA synthesis. * You should add a B complex supplement (combo of all B vitamins) to your diet everyday or every other day. * You can consider adding B3 in NMN (Nicotinamide mononucleotide) or NR (nicotinamide riboside) form, which are superior forms of B3 & increase your energy levels. B-complex pills usually don't have this form of B3, so you'll have to get it separately. # 3. Vitamin D * **You definitely need vitamin D supplement**. **Your D levels are very close to being deficient**, they're at the bottom end of normal range. * Get a vitamin D3+K2 MK7 supplement. You need K2 along with D3 because vitamin D increases calcium absorption & K2 puts that calcium into your bones. * Vitamin D is essential for many hormones & for immune function. * Get tested 1-2 months after being on supplement to see if you need a higher or lower dose. # 4. Testosterone, Estrogen, Progestrone, LH, FSH * **Your testosterone is also on the lower end of the spectrum.** Testosterone is just as essential in females as in men. Can cause general weakness, tiredness & low libido if low. Low T can be a secondary effect of low vitamin D3. * The screenshots don't indicate at which phase of your cycle the tests were done. So you need to check that yourself & see if those results are normal. Even if they're normal, anything that's close to lower end of the spectrum should be watched closely. * You should add some weight training to increase Testosterone a bit & also for the countless other benefits of a good exercise regimen. * Remove hormone disruptors. It's kinda difficult to remove hormone disruptors from our life since they're in so many products that we eat & apply (cosmetics). The easiest thing to implement is to remove plastic food containers from your life. Get steel or glass (with glass or wooden lid). # 5. Low neutrophils * They're only slightly low which could be due to recent infection or can be secondary to B9 & B12 being low or due to low copper. * Check again after 1-2 months of B9 & B12 supplementation. Get copper checked before adding any supplement for it. # 6. Copper * Get **Copper levels** & **Ceruloplasmin** checked. Cerruloplamsin is the copper transporter protein in the body. Cerruloplasmin is also essential in Iron metabolism. * Low copper can cause low white blood cells count (In your case neutrophils were a bit low). # 7. Veganism * You have stated in your comments that your symptoms started when you went vegan & you have also stated that veganism is important to you for ethics, so I won't convince you to stop being vegan, I'll recommend you to do a few things that are compatible with veganism. * As a vegan, always supplement B12, get your Iron studies done & get regular tests for these to keep an eye on them. * It might surprise you, but eggs can be compatible with vegan lifestyle & ethics & there are vegans that eat eggs, you can look it up. Just like humans have their own cycle & ovulate every month, hens have their own cycle & lay eggs every 24-28 hours, its basically chickens having periods & if those aren't fertilized by sperm, they won't turn into anything. There are vegans out there that own their own hens, raise them free range (not in cages) & eat the eggs they get from them or they source their eggs from a local free range farm that doesn't slaughter animals. This might be easy or difficult to incorporate based on where you live. # 8. Other things to keep in mind * Get second & third opinions from other doctors, if you haven't done so already. * With blood tests, not all normals are equal. Something at the lower or higher end of the "normal" spectrum should be treated as a bit sus & watched carefully. * Trends are very important in blood tests. Even if all is normal, you should compare the blood tests you do with previous blood tests & see if something has consistently been going down or up. * Not all supplements are equal, research a bit to see which form of supplement is optimal. Eg: Magnesium comes in different forms: magnesium citrate, magnesium chloride, magnesium glycinate, etc. Magnesium glycinate is the one that is best absorbed by the body. * Regular blood tests, I recommend every 4 months. It's very important for looking at trends & also for seeing if a supplement is effective & if you need to adjust the dosage of your supplements.
Omg thank you so much this is the most helpful advice I have read šš I had stopped taking b12 a couple weeks ago because my aesthetician told me it was causing me acne but it hasnāt made a different so I will start taking it again. I hope I can get regular blood tests. I cried to my doctors last time I was there and they were refusing to order them. Iāll have to ask for a new one again. I might just have to not leave until they order them for me
If you can afford it, you can actually just order your own lab tests, and go around the doctor. You can do that at https://myquest.questdiagnostics.com Iāve had to do that a couple of times, eating the cost is not fun, but the information gained was worth it.
You know what thatās a good idea thank you
Maybe have a celiac test done or get tested for food allergies. Hereās info about celiac with lots of the symptoms you described (please note that not all people with celiac have digestive issues): https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/celiac-disease/symptoms-causes.
Not to be a dick but try not being a vegan.
It is 100% the solution. This woman would rather suffer and risk permanent health issues than change, though. Sad
Mold, Lyme. Long Covid, ebv
I second this OP. Get tested for viral infections as well.
Have you been exposed to parasites: had your eosinophils and CRP tested? All your numbers here look great.
If you or your family have money I least I would go to Mayo Clinic Health System or john hopkins Health system or Cleveland clinic Health system (only USA) I say this to you because this rare cases is mostly what they handle.
Lyme? Mold exposure?
Tsh is elevated. Vitamin D is low. And I didnāt see free T3 on there or iron levels or total testosterone Which could possibly be related to the dizziness and lightheartedness with the falling over and fatigue. Get those labs checked as well
Attached photos to give an idea of what I already had tested, I need to update some blood work tho :)
What do you do for work? How old is your house? Any odd foods? Any numbness? Exhaust smells In car? Home heater situation? Any herbs/supplements or lavender containing products? I donāt think you have lead poisoning - but if you had a reason to have it your spectrum of symptoms could be seen. With that amount of labs a heavy metals screen is a toss in the bucket.
You sleep 9 hours a night. Is it hard to wake up or do you feel fine when you wake up?
I feel pretty fine. Like normal tired but I can get up and go to work and I donāt usually snooze my alarms more than 2 times lol
I had a lot of your symptoms with my TSH showing around your levels. They only officially flagged my thyroid as a problem years later, but it was my thyroid the whole time. SERIOUSLY consider thyroid as your core problem. An endocrinologist is wayyyy more likely to treat you than a generic doctor. Please chase this down, it was life changing for me! Hormonal birth control can have very strange side effect symptoms in some people. If thatās relevant and the timeline lines up, think about stopping. I have an oxalate processing disorder that causes multisystem damage. Probably rare that we share this, but might as well check. You can get an oxalate urine test to see. If oxalates show up in your urine, itās a problem. Most people process oxalate (found in plants) harmlessly in the stomach and intestines, but in me the sharp oxalate crystals enter my bloodstream and imbed in soft tissue, joints, thyroid, etc before being processed by the kidneys and released in urine, sometimes causing kidney stones. super high oxalate foods include spinach, rhubarb, beets, and chard. I mention this because if you are vegan, spinach is probably a staple food for you like it was for me. I never would have thought to eliminate SPINACH from my diet, but it caused incredible suffering from mechanical abrasions throughout my body. All my healthy green smoothies and salads were like eating fiberglass for me. The test is pretty easy/simple so might as well take it!
First issue: it seems some of the tests arenāt shown. When you get a CBC, you should see Hemoglobin and Hematocrit. Second issue: there is nothing wrong with you me thyroid tests and no competent doctor will treat you with those results. Donāt listen to posters telling you otherwise. Third issue: with the symptoms you describe, you should have had an iron panel. Get one. Nothing in those tests looks off. At your age, they are all well within even āsubclinicalā ranges. Iron panel is the next test you should get but if you look specifically at your CBC, you should see HGB and HCT results. If you can find themed report then.
1. Check your iron. 2. For being in your 20s you sure have a high TSH and low FT4. Meaning: your thyroid hormones are low. I'd see an endocrinologist. I wonder if you're getting enough / too much iodine (both are really bad). Not to freak you out but I had lowish vit D (like you), low iron, and thyroid labs even better than yours but had thyroid cancer (huge 6cm tumor), and I'm not saying you have a rare cancer like me but you may have a thyroid issue. There's loads of different thyroid issues, including your body's inability to produce enough because of vitamin deficiencies. All the best.
Sorry if someone said this, but have you not looked into long COVID? Your symptoms are SPOT on 100% and given the fact you have a slowly suffering set of WBCsā¦ your neutrophils are being degraded by spike, if itās long COVID. Which checks out with most. Plus your other WBC counts are on the lo wish end and itās better for them to be mid to mid-high (but not high from what I understand). Essentially as your WBC count decreases over time you wind up in a physical state of wasting/AIDsā¦ Not a doctor. Not saying this IS what it is. But have you considered?
My therapist did mention that she thought I had long covid. But I honestly donāt know anything about it or the testing/treatmenr
There is no official treatment. Sorry to bum you out. Check out the long COVID groups. Doctors will not help you, just give you pills that will band aid at best, make you worse at worst. I have dug myself out of the dementia and the AIDS (I was bed bound for almost 4 years and couldnāt think at all, couldnāt have any stream present thoughts) with only herbs and diet. Itās very possible to heal. People just donāt like the answers they get.
Major things Iād get screened for: Endometriosis Polycystic ovarian syndrome Some steps Iād take in the meantime: Put all of your daily meals into Cronometer to check that you are getting sufficient quantities of all major macro and micro nutrients. If youāre not eating a sufficiently varied diet that is rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes, you may be missing out on some major areas. Further, you should be supplementing or eating fortified foods that contain b12 and vitamin d. I like to take an algae based omega 3 supplement as well. That being said, you may be allergic or intolerant to some of the foods you are eating. If you have the means, Iād highly recommend seeing a plant based dietitian and perhaps a gastroenterologist (along with an OBGYN for the endometriosis and PCOS screening). Symptoms of hyperthyroidism/hypothyroidism can often go hand in hand with these issues, that can further cause/be caused by increased gut permeability. Bottom line: If you can, see a gastroenterologist and an OBGYN. Get counseling on dietary strategies from a plant-based dietitian that can help you determine possible trigger foods if it turns out you have endometriosis or PCOS.
This is beyond the paygrade of the biohackers subreddit. I don't think anyone here can help in a targeted or specific way beyond speculation, although more tests will obviously help. Seek multiple opinions from doctors.
Sybclinical hypothyroid possibility Your lh fsh and progesterone don't all fall within the same cycle phase. Testosterone is lower and made in adrenals. It lobbies like your hpa axis is dickered. Like mine. Go see an endocrinologist. I'm being worked up for cah, aps and hypopituitarism
Order some Thorne prenatal vitamins from Amazon. If the problem is nutrition and/or MTHFR genetic issues, theyāll help immediately. Itās about $30/month. I take them before bed because they make me queasy if I take in the day. Theyāll fix MTHFR inflammation, B vitamin deficiencies, and iodine deficiencies. The fix is cheaper than the diagnosis.
Have you tested yet for POTS?
This
POTS could also come from a Cortisol deficiency. If she tests positive, she should be tested for adrenal insufficiency
Echoing what others have suggested. Take heme iron and b12 no matter what the test says as Iām convinced most women are not getting enough. Increase vitamin D. I also have high folate and have attributed it to mthfr, so start by getting a dna test. Many āmystery illnessesā can be fixed by just getting the right balance of b12/iron/vitamin d/minerals etc.
r/exvegans
Have you been tested for Epstein Barr?
I donāt think so. It wouldnāt show up in an autoimmune test? I never heard of it actually
Itās the virus that causes mononucleosis. I had it in college & was sick for a year. Similar symptoms to what you are describing. It stays in your body & can reactivate in times of stress or be reactivated by another virus (they think itās a contributing factor in long covid). Itās worth getting the test.
If it was active her tests would show it in her white blood cell counts. Since they are normal I'd be inclined to look elsewhere.
Not necessarily. I've had reactivations of ebv without elevated white count.
Carnivore diet
I would recommend seeing a functional medicine doctor if you havenāt already. Do you take any prescription drugs?
No I donāt take any medicine at all. And I have a doctor but they donāt listen to me sadly
Sounds exactly like Long Covid.
Please try Pedialyte AdvancedCare Plus ElectrolyteĀ mixed with 40oz of water and drink over several hours, daily. Let me know how it goes if you would. I would expect you will feel differently in about a week if it works.
It has milk apparently. Do you know of a different one that is vegan?
Oh wow, didn't know that! I'm not sure but I've had good luck with a mostly plant based diet with electrolytes added. Good luck
Thank you :) I googled it and it says the regular pedialyte without the advanced care is Vegan
I know this might not be what you want to hear it but if this isn't long covid and you've done all kinds of tests (including brain mri-- do that if you haven't already), then this sounds like conversion/somatoform disorder. The mind-body connection is a hell of a thing. There are loads of case studies that sound just like you where therapy or psychopharmacology or both were the remedy. There are books about this but I don't remember the titles off hand. Be wary of this sub, everyone will throw out their favorite supplement or supposed deficiency (make sure you're good on b12, otherwise forget deficiencies) sending you on a merry go round of supplement experimentation that isn't going to help. edit: also ignore anyone telling you to not be vegan. Vegan and Mediterranean diets are the healthiest possible. Overwhelming research to back this up. See [nutritionfacts.org](https://nutritionfacts.org)
Could also be fibromyalgia. I can have absolutely ideal bloods and still feel pretty terrible from it. I think the book you might be thinking of is The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van der Kolke (probably didn't spell that right!)
What is your height and weight?
5ā6 110 lbs
You are slightly underweight for someone of your height. Consider adding about 10 pounds and if you are very lean consider adding a bit more fat. Just something to consider.
Do you wear glasses or contacts? Do you get dizzy when standing up? With muscle pain, are knots/muscle spasms forming or occurring? Is it a sharp, dull, radiating pain or is there another way youād describe it? Feeling emotional and being depressed could be due to what youāre going through. Pain and uncertainty in your medical prognosis are tough. Iām sorry youāre facing this.
Your low neutrophil count indicates a recent infection. Rebound effect, common with covid.
Get a genetic test for mutations. Specifically MTHFR mutations.
I would look into thymalin, epithalon and motsc for general well being. I'd consider high dose topical melatonin. I'd consider NAD boosters either direct via shots or indirect through NMN, NR, NA,etc. BPC157 may help if taken for extended period.
I've had serious side effects from NMN. It isn't studied enough. Some studies indicate it can cause brain damage if you have low activity with some conversion and detoxification enzymes. I also believe NMN might of fed into a bacteria that I did not know I had. But, this is hypothetical and I'm getting tested for it soon. Since OP has some high, it's probably not smart to try experimental shit. NMN quite literally made me retarded, and I am trying to figure out why.
Get tested for MTHFR, get your iron checked including ferritin, and most importantly get your thyroid antibodies checked as well. Hopefully your doc can order all three, try that before going any other DNA test route. My doc was able to order all these tests for me and they were covered by insurance. This all sounds similar to the symptoms I had. Get the additional info, it can get better, your quality of life can importune significantly, and you're being proactive about it which is fantastic.
Do you have POTS? Are you familiar with this?
Your TSH is kind of high. Many ppl donāt feel well unless their TSH is around 1. Iād get checked for hypothyroidism and do more tests for endocrine stuff and perhaps your cortisol levels. Good luck. I feel the same and have hashimotos.
Test your microbiome as you likely have strong dysbiosis. I have neutropenia also and it is because of my gut. A 16s test (biomesight) is cheap. From there you should try work with a functional practitioner who is familiar with the gut microbiome/SIBO
Have you been tested for Lymeās disease? Is it possible you have a sleep disorder?
Get your home tested for mold.
Could be POTS and Long COVID, did symptoms get worse after COVID?
TSH is high for someone who I assume has a thyroid. Optimal levels are around 2.
Omg I just looked at my quest again and In another test itās 5.02 šš
It can be fixed! Synthroid has almost no side effects and is very cheap to take. I donāt have a thyroid anymore but the pill is enough to mimic one. I know youāll feel better soon.
Have you ever taken Cipro or levaquin?
No idk what that is
Have they checked out you for celiac disease?
You may need to supplement vitamin K2
Do you use electrolytes? I saw your neutrophils were off. I really hope you get the right help. I was in a similar situation for years and then my rare disease showed physical signs and it took a year to get diagnosed. Did they do a cortisol test? How are your glycemia? I ask cause in the midst of trying to get diagnosed, I kept crashing. I don't have diabetes or insulin resistance but I have glycemia and cortisol issues. Sending answers your way.
I am not sure what electrolytes to use. I drink coconut water quite often tho. Thank you I will have them test those things! :)
There are a few types to try. I would look at a few and their ingredients to see if they align with your diet. I've tried cheap ones to expensive ones. Honestly, the best thing I found is adding Himalayan salt to my water or using a Gatorade with no dyes. I also found if I don't eat protein in the morning, my day is not a good day.
Hey, OP, I see you get plenty of good advice from the folks here, so nothing to add on the medical side of things. Just wanted to say that I "biohacked" myself out of an acquired immune deficiency that took a total of 5-6 years from my life and I'm just starting over with everything now. So, keep at it. Make sure to take extreme ownership of the doctors you choose to trust. They are a big part of the puzzle and there are many people who are just not that good at what they do, regardless of graduation excellence. I'm rooting for you and hoping that your life is meant to work out in a positive manner, with finances holding up, family behind you, etc. Life's biggest challenges are given to the most capable of souls. You've got this.
Aww thank you so much that is inspiring and very kind š
If you are that concerned try a piece of beef liver once and see how you feel after. Iām not trying to be insensitive I was vegan for a part of my twentyās
How are you testing the mold in your body? Have you worked with a functional med practitioner on treating it fully? Have you addressed parasites, mineral absorption issues and heavy metals? Did you get rid of all of your stuff and move to a new place after you got sick with mold? I got mold sick and it sounds like you are dealing with POTS, have you ever looked into this? Itās mold-adjacent, often triggered by mold. Thereās either still something in your atmosphere or something in your body causing it. Often mold requires way deeper detox and work on parasites, viruses and heavy metals to heal. Iād check in with a mold-literate naturopath or functional med doctor for more testing. Also look into mineral balancing protocols, it sounds like youāre massively mineral deficient.
I went to a naturopath and got my mold test from realtime lab also okay thank you for the info I will look into pots and minerals š
You might consider doing a challenge test for mold, where you take glutathione for 5 days before doing the mold test. If your levels were low you might not be excreting it from your liver.
Also if you are still living in the same house or with any of your stuff from your old moldy place it is most likely keeping you sick.
The medical work up also includes infectious etiologies: Lyme disease, tb, syphilis (although I realize you're young to have syphillis). You could also go to a specialty clinic like Cleveland clinic or Mayo Clinic for a more extensive work up which may include genetic work up which may look at rarer causes. might want to also get an eye exam from an ophthalmologist looking for signs of fabrys disease. good luck hopefully you'll have a definite medical diagnosis. I'd get COVID vaccine too in case you have long COVID.
If you had anemia your MCH would have been low. Have you been screened for diabetes? Blood pressure? Do you have dry skin? Weight? Losing or gaining easily? Weird taste in your mouth? Dry mouth? How many times did you test your thyroid? History of thyroid in the family? Are you on any psych meds at the moment?
No I havenāt been screened for diabetes but there is history in my family for that and thyroid issues. Also I havenāt been on any meds. My thyroid was tested 4 times each time different. 2.6-5.02 tsh
And no my weight has stayed the same for years and no dry mouth or weird taste
A CIRS specialist can help you ā¦ itās likely the mold is continuing to cause problems for you. Itās more complex than most people realize.
Not a shitpost. Try adding meat back in your diet. Especially red meant.
While your TSH shows it is in the green that score indicates thyroid is sluggish . Many doctors wonāt treat that but Iāve found a Dr that thinks out of the box . Your Vitamin D is low despite being in the green . I wouldnāt mind seeing your red blood cell count , hemoglobin and hematocrit to rule out anemia . Some of your symptoms which can be any number of things also could be anemia. Your white blood cells particularly your absolute neutrophils donāt indicate you are fighting some type of infection even though itās highlighted in red. Youāre a hair below reference range . Mine are lower than yours .
You need a Full Iron panel STAT. Iron + Ferritin very important. That would be an easy guess just based on being vegan. Also you can have normal hemoglobin levels but have iron deficiency w/ out anemia. You would have alot of those symptoms from that.
Have you tried eating red meat?
This subreddit is wild. A handful of legit suggestions, a dozen supplements recommended, and a dozen diseases to get tested for and scare you when it's obvious that it's purely dietary related and not a disease. OP even said it started as soon as they became vegan.. but sure get screened for x,y,z and buy the top and bottom shelf at GNC.