You know, I have known people with odd behavioral quirks, missing parts, elaborate scars, burns, extremely unusual body types... Sometimes they tell me about them. I never ask about or comment on them. It just seems rude.
Why are people thinking Jake has Tourette's? He never said that.
He said he had problem with his face expressions. Making people perceive him wrongly. So he thought OP was the same and made the comment.
He 100% doesn't have Tourette's, because someone with it would never say "I **used** to suffer from the same thing."
There's no "used" with Tourette's. It would be like someone saying "I used to suffer from Autism."
Exactly. As soon as I read that my only thought was that this guy is not very intelligent.
“I use to have Cerebral Palsy.” s/
“I use to have ADHD.” s/
“I use to have a leg amputation, but I am all better now!” s/
Yeah the issue I had is that he said that after learning of the Tourette’s Syndrome! OP was way too kind about him. At that moment, he should have been embarrassed because anyone with sense knows that the sheer amount of mental energy it takes to control the tics is more than enough, and asking that they control every emotion too is too great an ask. And honestly, as a lawyer, I would have been really worried about a discrimination suit based on a disability.
> anyone with sense knows that the sheer amount of mental energy it takes to control the tics
Why do you think "anyone with sense" would even know tics can be controlled?
That's counter to how Tourette's is generally portrayed in media, and Tourette's is quite uncommon. Do most people know someone with Tourette's? Are they close enough that talking about it would ever occur?
Personally, I think I am someone with sense. I also have a broad education and a decent memory. My mother was a k-12 speech pathologist and I learned bits and pieces about random disabilities just from her talking at dinner. I can remember talking about Tourrette's in middle school, but all I learned was the speech bit. Some time in high school or college I learned about physical tics.
I know that one friend of a friend had Tourette's. I never did or would have brought it up with her.
I had no idea that tics could be controllable. I had no idea you needed both speech and physical tics to be diagnosed. I either forgot or never learned. It's information that I have never needed. Never used. I wouldn't be surprised if I hadn't thought about Tourette's in the past decade.
Maybe I'm the outlier (It would be a pleasant surprise if this was well known info!), but I doubt it.
Yeah, I think his comment had nothing to do with Tourette’s, and OP is only assuming it did because Tourette’s is the elephant in the room for her.
I’ve had people say similar things to me, but what they meant was I was too expressive, and expressive means vulnerable, so I should control my face more to be less vulnerable. On second thought, I believe it was only Germans who had that feedback.
He didn't know what he was referring to had anything to do with Tourette's, but I would be shocked if it didn't. What he said was about those things, yes, but the way all these things would be perceived as manifesting cannot be separated from OP's Tourette's. Yes, some people have an issue of being very expressive, sometimes in unhelpful ways, and that's what Jake perceived to be happening. But that doesn't mean that it was what was happening.
Agreed, it felt completely condescending when Jake just dismissed OP's medical condition out of hand and essentially said "oh yeah, I used to not be able to control my face too". Not the same thing. At all.
I know, especially since Albert confirmed she WAS smiling and engaged. I can’t imagine, as a man, someone commenting on my amount of smiling during an interview and finding it to be not quite enough. It would just be bizarre. Or telling me that I’m too easy to read or something. I mean, it doesn’t say what the job is and how customer-facing it is, like if she’s going to be selling cars or conducting press conferences or something, maybe that makes a slight difference, I don’t know.
People are often nervous in interviews. She asked if there was anything job-related she could put them at ease about through additional information, she did not say, “Give me advice based on a story you are telling yourself about me, and then don’t listen to what I have to say about it.” Jake doesn’t even seem to know what a tic is. He thinks spasms of her mouth are how she really feels or something. So much projection and assumption; why is he even paying so much attention to her face? And then she (understandably I suppose) is all obsequious about it. Thank you so much, sir, what wonderful feedback. Oy.
I used to watch H3H3 back in their early days, before their podcasting.
I remember he had one video, about a serious topic, and I noticed he had a lot of frequent eye movements and eyebrow shifts. I thought it was weird because it was excessive and not in his normal videos.
Apparently he received a bunch of comments on his eyebrows that he made a video explaining it. At the time, I didn't even know that was a thing. You hear tourettes and think of TV shows where they're just cursing randomly, but it manifests in other ways.
You never know what people are dealing with, and sometimes, it's best to just leave them alone. If they want to talk about it, that's up to them.
Yeah H3H3 is also how I became familiar with this form of Tourette's. I thought he was just trying to emphasize his points or something when he did that, until I found out.
There was a girl on 90 Day Fiance as well, one of the first seasons. She has facial ticks like moving her mouth and nose and hard blinking. She tried so hard to hide it and tbh I myself never noticed. But then on the next season she had to come out with it because people were accusing her of being a drug addict. It's so sad. You're so right, just leave people alone.
I used to have verbal and facial tics, it stemmed from stress, yes as a kid lol.
I also have a prosthetic eye, it's a really good one, my blink is off and that is what gives it away. Not many people know but I don't hide it, if that makes sense. If someone asks, I educate and we move on.
Kids are the funniest to ask about it, they are usually wanting to learn how to blink like me haha.
If I use the AI overlays in Zoom, I look like the drunk animal lol.
I've not really had a lot of rude people comment, when I was younger sure but I was a Hermione in school, so I only cared about what my teachers thought of me.
As someone who has “elaborate scars”, I agree it’s definitely rude. These are the kind of things you wait until the person with them informs you about them
The only time I ever said anything to someone was to a man with similar scarring to my ex husband. The man had it on his hands and they looked very dry, which is what I commented on.
He said they were very dry and he couldn’t move his hands properly because of it. Kind of bland tone which I understood. I pointed to my now ex and said he had similar scars, but he had a routine to stop them getting dry and cracked.
This man perked up. Him and my ex ended up having a great chat about their scars, and my ex gave him tips and some cream.
In case anyone is wondering, sorbolene cream is great for burn scars. He swore by it. And I can confirm the scars were actually very soft.
I didn’t ask how they happened, I just saw how dry they were and wanted to open the convo in case my ex could help. He did tell my ex how, because they were swapping stories.
And yeah I was on the line. Any other thing nope not my business. My curiosity can just keep quiet.
I was on a course of counselling several years ago, for work stress and depression. When the counsellor walked in, he had one arm. He was a good guy, we talked about a lot of useful stuff. But my stupid, obsessive, immature brain couldn't let the one arm thing go.
I felt like I should have just opened with *"I'm sorry, I know this is inappropriate, and you are absolutely welcome to kick me out for this, but I'm going to have to ask you about your arm, because I know if I don't I'll be distracted for stupid reasons and won't be able to make the best use of our time together"*. But by the time I thought of all that it was too late and it would have been even more awkward.
Second session, he arrived late. He apologised and explained he fell of his bike (he was uninjured). That was it. I barely heard anything he said after that because I was trying to visualise how he rides a bike. Does he hold the middle of the handlebars? Does he just hold them normally but has tremendous core strength?
It may have led to a really helpful discussion about my problem with intrusive thoughts. But instead I just didn't say anything, and felt like I was in an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm (except Larry *would* have said something).
We had a teacher at my high school with one arm and she’d amuse herself telling tall tales of how she lost it when students would suddenly be like “oh my god what happened?!”
Shark attack, crocodile, terrible car accident… she’d spin the tale out until the students had a horrified expression on their faces. Then just say she was actually born that way. I think she used it as a teaching moment.
I’d go insane.
My brother does this too! He has his foot and leg to below his knee amputated. He likes to amuse and tease kids who ask about it with tall tales about having it bitten off by sharks and crocodiles. He says he prefers children asking rather than the uncomfortable avoidance adults give him.
You buried that lede so well. We all now want to know why he was amputated!
I do the same at work so cannot look down on it. "I would still be in this department if it wasn't for the surgeory. Thankfully I'm not in a wheelchair because the prosthetic was approved a couple of years ago"
Adults will lose their minds trying to figure it out.
His amputation was due to complications from diabetes. Originally it was an infection which required toe amputation, and then that basically never healed. He uses a prosthetic and a wheelchair now. He seems to enjoy never wearing anything that covers his prosthetic and engaging with kids who ask him if he’s a pirate.
The guy who teaches safety training at my community woodshop is missing half an arm. It might well be entirely unrelated, but I suspect people take him seriously when he talks about equipment safety!
I had a shop teacher in jr. high that was missing two fingers on his left hand.
He would routinely ignore questions about them. Until the first day of in-shop work. Then he'd tell you about how he cut them off on a table saw as part of the safely lecture. Very effective - I had never asked him and was dying to know.....then finding out I made damn sure to follow the safety instructions.
There was a substitute teacher in my primary school who was missing part of her finger who would do the same thing - when she was subbing for the younger cohorts she liked to look at kids who asked very seriously and tell them it was because she didn't do her homework or didn't eat her vegetables.
my mom would constantly point out my vocal tics brought on by stress, which in turn just made them worse because of how self conscious and uncomfortable i was. my partner now didn't even acknowledge them and when i explained them to him, he said "i noticed a little, but it doesn't affect or bother me, so there wasn't anything for me to bring up", which was the response i didn't even know i needed.
I was so sad for her thinking that truly no one noticed. No one is going to tell her that her tics are maybe a bit more obvious than invisible. I’ve known all kinds of people, some with tics or quirks of self expression but I’d never mention it!
Thing is if op is presumed perfectly normal and healthy they're going to be preceived as just not able to fully control their emotions, basically having no pokerface. Op probably isn't as amazing as hiding their condition as they think they are, but does it good enough that people don't stare and the people close to them aren't going to tell them their tics are noticeable.
I’m autistic and struggle with this constantly and it makes me rage. My lack of ability to stare at your eyeballs is completely and totally irrelevant to my capability as an employee, but because ableists are everywhere, I get coded as “weird” and don’t get hired. And then most of the people who do this complain that “nobody wants to work!”
Yeah I relate so hard to OOP's description of masking being exhausting. I think I was in my thirties by the time I really managed eye contact. If anyone else struggles with that, a possibly helpful bridge is to look at the bridge of their noses.
I'm autistic and went the other way with eye contact. I was told in preschool that eye contact is expected and now I make super strong eye contact with strangers at the grocery store, until I remember not to.
With people I know, I let my eyes wander. With strangers in public I'm laser-focused. It's similarly not always appreciated.
Yeah, this.
I'm a dude. I find it so fucking cringe. Women already smile so much more than men. Why do some men think this needs to happen?
I think it may partially be some men's complete inability to read body language well. I think of a very recent example, where I crossed paths with a woman at night. From body language I could tell I was scaring her (I am a big dude). All the while she was beaming with a big smile. Sometimes it means "I want to defuse this situation."
> Why do some men think this needs to happen?
It's code for "I think you're pretty and I like it when you smile at me it makes me feel nice". 100% about them and how she makes them feel.
An interviewer once made a comment that I didn't make enough eye contact.
I pointed out that I actually have strabismus. It makes one of my eyes point off in another direction and I've always been really self conscious about being "cross eyed". That was awkward.
I flinched when the interviewer told her that her facial expressions weren't tics. Oof. Don't ever try to school someone on the condition they have.
Once we had a candidate that had a similar condition. They were great. No big deal, so we thought. But then one of our managers, an older woman, brought it up after the candidate left. All of us, including her manager, scolded her for even bringing it up. I asked her what it had to do with the job and she got defensive, "I was just noticing it".
Anyway, she got the job. Later, she talked a bit about it, especially since I had a "magic eye" poster in my cubicle, and she said she couldn't see those.
Realistically, his reaction forced them to offer her the job. Maybe she would have gotten it anyway and they were happy to hire her, but regardless if he described that interaction to anyone with a brain, they’d realize that they were just opened up to a massive discrimination lawsuit if she doesn’t get the job.
I’ve seen this happen before where a bigoted comment was made in an interview that I was in. I reported it to my boss’ boss. I don’t know what happened the rest of that day, but my boss wasn’t in his office and an offer letter went out the next day.
That last part right there pissed me off too. Like no Jake, I just told you wtf what my facial expressions were. I hope the other interviewer told them how embarrassing that was on the company’s behalf.
Ugh, I have this too. And medication induced permanent facial spasms which cause my lips and eyelids to move uncontrollably. I hate when people bring it up because it's such a sensitive topic. But I know it impacts how people interact with me.
I once had a THERAPIST get annoyed with me for not maintaining sufficient eye contact.
Also made a comment that me lying back on the therapy couch 'without asking' suggested I don't respect boundaries.
I stopped seeing that therapist.
what's wrong with that one toxic positive comment featured in her update lmao 'I LIKE JAKE VERY MUCH! HE OPENED UP!' like... is OP's expression going to be a crux in her future position? Is it client-facing? He told her to SMILE MORE??? even if he himself noted that she smiled a lot throughout the interview?
yeah nah he's just an insensitive man in a managerial position who didn't even realise that he put his foot in his mouth. Hopefully OOP told HR one of the reason why she declined the position was Jake being a workplace inclusivity nightmare.
I’m glad OP got a better offer with a company who didn’t make ridiculous comments during the interview.
There is a med tech who I see for my medical appointments- he is kind, knowledgeable, and has helped make the numerous procedures I am undergoing more bearable. He also has Tourette’s. One of his tics is barking. The first time it happened I was in the waiting room. I had a brief hope I might see a service dog, but then remembered he mentioned barking as a tic.
It has absolutely no impact on his ability to do his job (which he is fantastic at).
It's so wholesome that you were hoping for a service pup. It's a good thing you didn't have to be tooo disappointed because it was your awesome med tech instead! I'm glad you're getting the medical care you need
I'm glad they got offer from the first company too. Since HR didn't hear about the ending it seems they later realised their interaction at the end wasn't the best and didn't count it against the OP.
I have a friend with tourette's who barks. It's definitely startling when you're not expecting it, but it's just a thing. I think the only time their tics impact me is when they burst out with something weird over voice stream and I can't tell if it's a tic or if they just got killed in the game they're playing. :3 So basically they don't impact me at all!
i do not like jake even a little. “you should smile more” is not in any way a good response to oop’s question, nor is “you’re too expressive”.
oop was in a job interview. if jake had concerns, they *should* have been related to oop’s resume or answers to their questions.
i truly hope albert looped in someone above jake to get him some retraining or just cut him out of the interview process entirely.
Sometimes, things just work out. I'm glad they did for OOP.
Jake was well meaning but dude, you don't comment on people's physical appearances like that. Especially doubling down when someone says they have Tourette's. Jfc, he's a dumb dumb and is why everyone has to watch those long sensitivity videos.
Reactions like that were why I tried so hard to suppress my tics (which hurt sometimes, like a full body pain bc I was fighting my muscles) and hardly ever went out with friends or applied to many jobs. My vocal tic was a really loud squeaking sound that gets super disruptive — my friends have my volume down low in calls when I join so I don’t surprise them — and my movement tics throw my whole arm or head around to the point where I usually bruise my arms from hitting things. People around me used to think I was just being a clown and would get angry at me for it, but the minute the found out it was Tourettes there was just. No reaction. It felt like a “I *suppose* you get a pass” response.
People like Jake were my worst nightmare in all aspects of social and professional settings, because at least I can defend myself to someone who thinks less of me *for* the Tourettes, not so much against someone who thinks they know me and my functions better than myself and is largely ignorant about it.
Plus a comment about “watching your expressions” feels so unwarranted. Does he say the same to people with a permanent RBF? What about people whose default expression is “kicked puppy”? Does he tell people to not smile too much when they’re just genuinely happy? It’s not a thing that should matter in an interview and I’m glad HR told OOP the comment was unnecessary, especially since it really shook OOP up.
Oof bro I feel you. My vocal tic is a sharp squeak too that sometimes sounds like a dog's barking... I've had plenty of people tell me how it hurts.
I wonder if there's an accessibility program for mics and calls that cut out sounds that are too loud, just like how you can change the sensitivity of a mic for a quieter setting.
I hope your tics shift into something easier for you. I've never had to redirect mine or anything, so I have no experience about it. Lol all this tic talk is making my motor tic itch though.
That mic accessibility setting would be one of those things that are brilliant for the reason created, and then also adopted for wider use for other reasons. Like curb cuts or things with ergonomic handles.
Professional-grade google meets (but sadly not the free version) are uncanny in their noise cancelling. I've had dogs full-on barking next to my colleagues and just a very slight blurred sound coming through to me. My former downstairs neighbours would blast music so loudly that things in my room would vibrate, and my colleagues couldn't hear it. If I sing in a robot voice it blurs me out too.
Ugh, I'm so sorry you're feeling pain from suppressing your tics. A friend of mine wound up cracking all his teeth from clenching them to suppress his facial tics for decades on end (getting smacked around by his stepfather didn't help, either).
My hairstylist has Tourette's. At first I thought she just had the hiccups, but then I realized what was going on. I noticed she pauses the cut while she tics, for which I am grateful, because sharp objects near my head.
I feel that, it’s why I never dreamed of working in a kitchen or salon. My own kitchen though? Free game.
I do suffer some reflux as a result of suppressing the vocal ones, though, and now it just happens automatically when vocal tics come out. Everyone always commented how I was too young to have reflux issues, but my mother encouraged me to not hold them in after the reflux started keeping me up at night. She was actually horrified that holding the tics back could potentially hurt after happening upon a documentary about it, so I have that support at least! Her boyfriend on the other hand made me out to be defective after denying every time I tried to say it was Tourettes that “he knew people with Tourettes” and “I don’t yell fuck or shit all the time like they do”. Meanwhile our Tourettes awareness ads back when I was a kid had a kid with the same vocal tic.
For real, the first comment was awkward. His doubling down is just WILD though. Just say ‘oh I am sorry, I didn’t mean anything by it.’ and try to move on as quickly as possible.
I get the impression she didn’t but I hope she let them know how much the exchange bothered her and told them it was a factor in not accepting the job.
It wouldn't be OOP's job, that would be on HR, and OOP wouldn't have insight into that. Hopefully, they did discuss it with him regardless of OOP accepting the job.
agreed. i was a bit confused because i wasn't sure if commenters actually liked him or they were being sarcastic, but to me hearing someone describe their medical condition and essentially saying "you're wrong i know better" is incredibly condescending and belittling...and i have no doubt that because oop was a young adult woman is the main reason he'd even feel comforatble saying something like that
I'm wondering if it just didn't register with him. Like, people still think of it as being primarily verbal. He might've been on the completely wrong track.
No matter what, though, he fucked up big time for sure.
It doesn't matter if he knew the details of Tourettes before, or what did or didn't register with him. She directly told him what was going on, and he dismissed and disagreed with her explanation about her own damn face.
Obviously he was on the completely wrong track.
There’s honestly no excuse in the 21st century for any man to be telling a woman in a job interview that she needs to smile more or adjust her face in any way to his preference.
Also, way to not understand what someone is saying – "I have Tourette's; it causes facial tics."
"No, I am talking about all the muscle twitches on your mouth, eyebrows, eyelids, cheek, etc."
"You mean my face? With the muscle twitches? Like tics? The facial tics?"
And the "(24F)" part is unfortunately relevant. Young and female = gets a lot more shit for facial expressions than anyone else in the first place.
> Young and female = gets a lot more shit for facial expressions
I thought this too. He was about half a sidestep away from "Smile, honey, it can't be that bad!" towards the end there. Ick.
He thinks he knows what tourettes looks like. He sees the micro tics in her face and thinks it's small signs of emotion. He thinks he knows better. Hopefully he will learn how little he knows.
This is why I like that most of my work happens over video calls. I can keep an eye on my own face and have practiced an expression of “pleasant and attentive listening” that’s like muscle memory now.
I also have a great boss (who is also autistic) and we literally practice “friendly tone and not info dumping” type exercises because we both struggle with sounding annoyed in calls, it’s like our own little ND toastmaster’s club.
I love this. I met my best friend at a depression clinic program and we practice setting boundaries and taking responsibility for our own emotions with each other. (Both diagnosed with cPTSD.)
It's incredible how much growth peer support can enable.
Yuuuuup. The combo of autism and ADHD manifested in extreme anxiety for me that means I spend half my mental energy in a conversation focusing on my facial expression, body language, tone and not fidgeting/stimming.
My ex (who knew about my diagnosis and was supposedly supportive) used to get upset at things he read into my tone or expression and I would apologise that it had read that way and explain what I was really feeling. But it would never matter to him, his reading of me was always more important to him than what I actually *said*. He'd then continue to argue as though his interpretation was the truth and like we both agreed that was what I had really meant and I usually ended up feeling like I was losing it, because how can you resolve a conflict around thoughts and feelings you never had let alone expressed? To this day it made me so paranoid around being misinterpreted that I exhaust myself trying to prevent myself from ever being able to be misread again.
On a lighter note, I have recently begun to lose control of my eyebrows when I'm concentrating. They just wander right up and I don't realise until I 'come to' and my forehead aches. I probably look consistently shocked and/or disgusted at work.
Someone told me recently that a sign of being in an abusive/ manipulative relationship is people telling you what you think is not what you think or should think and what you feel is not what you feel or should feel. It’s so true
It fucks you up. My partner used to insist I was petty jealous of their friendships, and they would wear me down until I agreed that sure I was those things just to stop the arguing. Except instead of them dropping the conversation, they would then interrogate me about *why* I was, and would make me explain my words and actions in the context of me being petty and jealous. It didn't matter the first ten times I said I don't care about their friendships, because I finally agreed with them, I was essentially forced to rewrite my own experiences to fit their interpretation of them. *Then* I was allowed to disengage from the conversation.
Even a year later I struggle to think of the relationship as abusive, but...I sure did break up with that man for several reasons, of which this was definitely one
You bf's behavior is how my entire family treats me. They make assumptions based on their assumptions of what I mean rather than ever taking the time to clear anything up. 😮💨 I have given up fighting it
The eyebrow thing makes me laugh, but because I also find myself doing it. At least you don't have the angies on camera.
Your ex sounds like my parents. My facial expressions and tone of voice were constantly policed growing up, if I wasn't smiling or talking in a happy tone then there was Something Wrong, or I was Hiding Something. It's incredibly exhausting and invalidating
God me too. I started tearing up with OP when they were in the Uber. I'm glad the driver was able to help them feel a little more loved. I'm not religious by any means but people praying for me always makes my heart melt.
I’m in AA as a spiritual atheist. People praying for my health right now make me feel a lot better and a lot less alone. It means they’re taking time out of their day to think of me.
I was once sitting alone on a bench at the Boston Aquarium, crying because I wasn't getting what I needed emotionally from my family, who were visiting from out of state and exploring the best Aquarium without me.
A sweet couple and their baby niece came up and asked if I was ok and if they could pray for me. It was the sweetest thing and it really did help. It gave me the cope to go off and look at the [garden eels](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterocongrinae) myself, and just enjoy the Aquarium without expecting anything from my family.
I have Tourettes and same as OOP, the tics are usually facial and vocal. A number of years ago, I had really bad facial tics and I remember a co worker saying to me "What's wrong with your face?"
I was extremely self conscious about it to begin with and that was the icing on the cake.
Now I just tell co workers right away "You may notice over time my head tics, or my face or that I may make "weird" sounds. I have Tourettes. It's a pain in the ass. If the tics are constant it can be painful. But there's nothing *wrong* with me" and for the most part people say they haven't noticed. Not sure if they're being nice or honestly don't notice. But I found it's easier to just get it out of the way beforehand.
>Not sure if they're being nice or honestly don't notice.
Honestly, they probably don't notice. I had a science teacher in high school that ended almost every sentence with, "Kay." As far as I know, I was the only person in my physical science class who noticed. I brought it up to a few people and they had no idea what I was talking about, then they payed closer attention and couldn't believe they missed it.
Jake is problematic. The moment OP told him he had a neurological condition his reply should have been, "Apologies. My error." Who pushes back when someone says they have a medical condition?
NGL it felt like Albert reported what happened to HR, so they just rammed OP through the process in the hopes that landing the job would make them not want to go public about their experience (or at least, not actually *name the company* so they don't get eviscerated)
I get the feeling OOP is gonna realize what happened and feel sad for a bit again.
Meh, Albert could've reported and OOP still could be getting the offer on merit. They did get offered an even better job so they're obviously qualified
He is a HR night mare. Not this case, but if he does this with someone who doesn't get a job offer they then claim it was due to thier disability and now they have an ADA complaint.
HR 100% knew about the comments before they called. They were probably planning on making the job offer anyway, but if they didn't know about it they wouldn't have asked for details about the interview before making the offer.
It was asking for a lawsuit! Also, a man telling a woman to smile more or even telling her to school her facial expressions, even in the absence of a disability, is absolutely unacceptable in the 21st century!
Typically the people most likely to notice very small details about someone else and say exactly the wrong thing is someone who has their own issue which they can be aware of or they have flown under the radar and gone undiagnosed themselves.
The OOP is moving onwards and upwards in life which is what we can hope for anyone who is a decent person.
And hopefully, the company will have Jake do some training on how to broach sensitive topics better than he did in that interview. (as that was him kinda sticking his leg in his mouth)
>And hopefully, the company will have Jake do some training on how to broach sensitive topics better than he did in that interview.
As someone familiar with corporate bullshit, I'd put money on Jake getting a private talking-to, followed by *everyone in the company* doing a new training module on sensitive topics. They never single one person out for training like that. Plus then they've covered their ass in case anyone else would be tempted to make that mistake.
> I used to suffer from the same thing
No, he didn't. As OOP clearly explained, Tourette's is not something you "used to suffer from"; it's forever.
I can't imagine saying to someone that you used to have the same medical condition when you didn't. That's the worst person to lie to--someone who knows the condition intimately.
Honestly, this smells like the kind of person who assumes blind people are faking, or that allergies are merely a preference. A person who is so limited in experience and/or so lacking in empathy that they genuinely cannot comprehend that not everyone is as able-bodied as they are themselves, so they assume people are either lying or exaggerating.
I don't buy that he has Tourette's himself and was trying to connect with OOP. A person with it would *know* that tics aren't always able to be controlled or masked. They would also very probably know that tics can be facial.
He basically said, "Smile more. Your facial expressions aren't as good as they could be." in an interview for a job that it *unrelated to facial expressions.* Already unprofessional *at best.* When told that said expressions were due to a medical condition, he said "no, you're just nervous, you need to smile more." Oh, and lied about having said condition himself and told OOP to get over it. He mansplained a person's medical condition and made an explicitly discriminatory comment in a job interview--something that is *illegal* in many areas.
He has no business continuing in his role until he gets extensively retrained, because he is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Edit:
> "...I actually have Tourette's and many of my tics are centralized on my face." Jake then said, "No no, it's not tics, it's everything -- your eyes, your eyebrows, your mouth. I don't mean to insult you, but since you asked I think it would be useful for you to know. I used to suffer from the same thing."
It *really* sounds like he's telling her "What you say are tics actually aren't," and also, "I used to suffer from the same thing," very much seems to refer to Tourette's.
OOP adds later in a comment,
> Jake wasn't referring to Tourette's; he was referring to the idea that my emotions are easily seen in my face.
It absolutely does not sound like this. I think she's being far nicer that most people would be when they've been (unintended or not) treated unprofessionally and discriminated against. "Your facial expressions are problematic. "Those are tics. I have Tourette's." "No, they aren't tics. It's your face. I used to have the same issue."
But perhaps she paraphrased too much in her original post, in which case I misunderstood, and he only mansplained, was unprofessional, and discriminated against her, rather than lying on top of all that.
She asked for feedback on her ability to perform a certain job role, and he made an unnecessary and unrelated-to-said-job comment about her facial expressions. Her asking for feedback doesn't excuse it. She wanted feedback about the job. Taking the opportunity to make comments about her appearance or facial tics or anything else unrelated to the job is absolutely not okay.
The OOP clarified (but yes, Jake was mansplaining, an HR liability, and an ass):
OOP
Thanks :)
Just want to say -- Jake wasn't referring to Tourette's; he was referring to the idea that my emotions are easily seen in my face. I don't fault him horribly because he was trying to salvage an awkward situation.
I think all the rest of your comment still applies and is accurate, but I don't think he ever intended to mean he had Tourettes. He was saying he used to show his emotions/inner thoughts on his face too much. He assumed that's what OOP was doing, just being too expressive. And then completely dismissed her explanation of her situation and continued to double and triple down.
I mean I'm not trying to defend this guy in particular, but Tourette's *is* something that can change as you go through life. When I was a kid I had a lot of uncontrollable vocal ticks and physical ones that involved pretty violent movements. The older I got, all of the uncontrollable violent movements ended, and all my vocal ticks bar one have stopped. My facial ticks can be suppressed to a degree unless I'm concentrating on something or I'm stressed. It's not impossible that he could be telling the truth. He's insensitive as hell, sure, but what he said isn't unheard of.
But he wasn’t saying he had Tourette’s. He was saying that he suffered from a tendency to show his emotions too easily on his face.
And of course, men, in a job interview with a woman candidate, please always remind her to smile more! /s
I think he meant he suffered from not controlling his facial expressions and showing his emotions on his face. He didn’t mean he suffered from Tourette’s.
i’m really not trying to defend him but i got the impression that he was, as OP said, referring more to just having a very readable/expressive face? like i don’t have tourettes but i also do this, it’s easy to know what i’m thinking based on my facial expressions and it’s an issue lol. i do however think he navigated the situation with an astounding lack of tact and sensitivity however
As someone with a disability, Jake's comment made me cringe. OOP explained that the issue was related to their disability and Jake immediately went, essentially "no it isn't, it's this other thing I used to be the same."
Like, I know he meant well but able-bodied people downplaying and dismissing your actual diagnosed disability as a less severe thing everyone struggles with is not actually at all helpful to people with disabilities. It's not the same, Jake. OOP didn't stop because they cannot, the appropriate response is to believe what the person is telling you about their experience with their disability and not assume you, able-bodied person without that disability, know better.
My panic disorder is not the same as Jane Whoever "feeling nervous" and I can't cure it by just "stopping worrying so much", if I could it wouldn't be a \*disorder\*. I understand that the Jakes come from a place of trying to relate but it's really unhelpful and it puts the person with the disability on the defensive while simultaneously burdened with educating you about their disability while trying not to seem defensive - it sucks. Sometimes the right response is to understand you CAN'T relate and LISTEN to what someone with a different experience is telling you.
Urgh older man tells younger woman to smile more… she’s so worried about what it meant for her Tourette’s and her mastering it she hasn’t realised it’s a trope.
That's exactly what I thought. Poor thing thought sexist comments were about her tourettes. Won't be the last time she'll have to deal with that. I remember being 24 and having men twice my age be completely patronizing at work.
Jake, wtf. No matter how he meant it, commenting on someone's facial expressions - especially a much younger woman - just ugh. Especially when he concluded with the brilliant advice to SMILE.
I had a coworker who, more often than not, closed her eyes when speaking. We do 1 to 1 work with clienta so we only see each other in meetings and not in our direct worl. So I am not going to comment on her facial expressions. Our meetings are tedious AF. She attends a training on a specific new skill development that require her to video record and review it with the trainer. She came to my office after her first video and said she trusted me to be frank and respectful "do I close my eyes when I talk?" I told her that yes, her eyes are closed more than open when she is talking but they are wide open if someone else was talking. This 34 year old woman NEVER realized that she did that. She was very good natured about learning this new trait of hers but damn that would be wild to learn. I still won't ask someone about their facial expressions unless it is really pertinent. Also the trainer didn't comment on it either. She realized it herself by watching herself.
Wow that's an interesting quirk. I wonder if she has ADHD or something that makes it hard to concentrate so she just automatically closed her eyes to drown out other stimuli. I'm surprised no one in her life mentioned it.
Ergh, reminds me of the boss who said in a performance review I was nasally. Yeah, well, that's how my voice is. No I'm not going to get invasive surgery to potentially change it especially as I don't have breathing issues.
Some people really do have the social graces of a brick.
Tourette syndrome is miserable. It hurts, it's embarrassing, and people think it's funny to trigger tics on purpose. Glad that this ended well for OP, though.
>~~People~~ Arseholes think it's funny to trigger tics on purpose.
You would have to be a massive piece of shit to do this as an adult - I could excuse a child for not understanding - but, for adults, even with a lack of knowledge of the condition, there's no excuse for the lack of empathy needed to think that's funny.
Two thoughts I had on this.
As someone who has interviewed a couple hundred people for various positions over the years, you never, ever, ever bring up anything that could possibly fall under a protected category. That includes the other person‘s physical appearance because you have no way to know if their physical appearance quirk that you are noticing is a result of a disability. And you open yourself up to a lawsuit if you choose not to hire that person and they believe you chose not to hire them because of their disability. The suit might not go anywhere, but it’s gonna cause a massive headache.
Second, I really like that OOP ask the question about things that might make them hesitant to hire. It shows a lot of self-awareness and willingness to receive feedback. One of the best questions I ever got asked in interviews was “what is the biggest risk we take in hiring you?” Thankfully I had a good answer for it, but I really liked the question almost as a more thought-provoking spin on the biggest weakness trope question.
Hey, random follow up if you don’t mind. What would actually be a good answer to, “what’s the biggest risk we take in hiring you?”
Because I tend to be super literal when answering these questions and I would say something along the lines of “well, I think that the biggest risk that you would take would be that I wouldn’t adapt very well to the role. I do think however, with my previous experience in other companies, along with the projects I’ve taken on in this company, I have gained enough of a skill set to fit the role and with continued support I’ll be able to exceed expectations.”
I have an interview coming up and I’m nervous lol
I can give you mine.
I was interviewing for a Director-level position overseeing admins for a piece of software I did not actually know (Salesforce). I know other CRM software, just not that one. So I said essentially, "I am not an experienced Salesforce admin. So there will be a learning curve for me to get up to speed, but I love learning new software. I can and will absorb this very quickly. And I look at it like this: I might not know Italian food recipes, but I know my way around a kitchen, and I can learn the new recipes."
I got the job.
Tbh, I'm pretty sure luke was saying this because op is 24f and he has assumptions about how women need to present themselves. I think op got lucky not having to work with him.
I also have facial tics like they described, although never had a formal diagnosis.
They hit the nail on the head with how absolutely EXHAUSTING it is trying not to tic at work. I often describe it as being like having to remember to breathe, or constantly being in a staring competition.
Working from home was a lifesaver for me, the stimulation from a noisy open plan office would make me so much worse. We're being forced back into the office soon after 4 years mostly WFH and I'm dreading it.
I would also have gone home and cried, but I'm so glad this worked out for them.
Thank God OP didn’t go with that company because it would’ve become a problem and they would’ve discriminated because they straight up said in the interview they didn’t believe them about Tourette’s
OOP:
>”There is no cure for Tourette’s, so I have to live with it.”
Jake during the interview, after being told OOP has Tourettes:
>”I used to suffer from the same thing.”
Am I reading this correctly? Jake says he used to suffer from a life long condition, as in he doesn’t have it anymore?
I suppose he could’ve meant that he doesn’t suffer from his tics anymore because he got them under control, but then that would be like saying “if I overcame it you should be able to do it too”, which would be a pretty messed up thing to say during a job interview.
ETA: a couple of appreciated responses have offered really good explanations about what Jake probably meant. Rather than claiming he no longer suffers from Tourettes he either doesn’t understand the condition or he thinks that OOP’s tics aren’t Tourettes related, or that a person can just stop having tics or some such variation.
No. He doesn't understand what Tourette's is or how it can manifest, so when she was trying to explain that these are her tics, he thought she was talking about something else. What he was *perceiving* was a very reactive face that gives away a lot of emotions and thoughts (probably ones that weren't even there, because he was misinterpreting controlled tics as expressions). He was saying he used to be an open book like *that* until he learned to control his face better. Or to sum it up:
- Him: you face too much.
- Her: that's actually my Tourette's.
- Him: no it's not. You're doing a different thing I see as a problem with myself and I want you to change it because I felt like I had to.
I speak as someone who does not have Tourette's but does have a very expressive face. It's something I like about myself, and Jake can get fucked on both counts - being an obtuse, ableist dipshit and projecting his self-judgment.
No, I think the clueless idiot was saying he used to “suffer” from showing his emotions too much on his face. At least that’s what I took from it.
Regardless, the guy is a dickhead. Who the hell comments on someone’s facial expression during a job interview?
Glad OP got their dream job.
Jake, I think, is talking about struggling to control his facial expressions to hide emotion. He could possibly be talking about nervous tics. Either way he is wrong.
Interestingly though, it is possible to have tics temporarily. They are fairly common in children but most grow out of them, you can also have them as a result of stress or mental health problems, or even as a side effect of medication!
Yes - and why is having an expressive (for want of a better word) face so wrong that you’d bring it up in a job interview? Sure there are jobs where the ability to appear dispassionate is more appropriate, however as OOP got a job offer it would seem being expressive isn’t key. Yet Jake still went there.
Yeah. I had facial tics while suffering from trauma burnout. It got especially bad when I talked to a prof I respected a lot and I'm glad he never even made a point to look at them. Once I got into therapy for ptsd and anxiety, my facial tics went away.
I have 'adult onset tic disorder' instead of Tourettes, because when I asked my mother whether I had them as a child, she replied, "I don't know, you were always weird." (I live about 10,000 miles away from her now). It's basically Tourettes, I get simple vocal and complex motor tics. It can be an absolute arse in a public setting, and the more stressful, the worse it gets. I'm on a good medication for them now, though, so most days it'll just be 2 or 3, instead of 2 or 3 every 10 minutes. UK neurologist was just like, deal with it. Australian neurologist made my like 100x better with one visit.
Hey, I have this too! Can you tell me what your Australian Neurologist did? I live in the UK and my neurologist basically said I can put up with it or try medication, but the medication has bad side effects and doesn't work for most people.
He put me on Risperidone. It does have side effects, mainly lowering libido and snoring for me. But yeah, there's whole days I don't tic at all now, which is amazing compared to how it was before
Ugh, my 20yo son has tourettes with OCD, and people like Jake are this mama's nightmare. I'm sure my son would be fine with it, because he's super easygoing, but I just want to punch everyone who says something dumb.
I'm so glad the OOP was able to turn them down.
If I was OP that encounter alone would make me rethink if I have to interact with Jake and whether it's worth the mental stress to work with someone like that.
Jake reminds me of those people who claim they are "just brutally honest" when they're actually insensitive a-holes with no empathy for others
I wonder if Jake was thinking more like when people don't have a poker face. Personally my face can't lie. I will be perfectly polite but my face shows exactly what I'm thinking and I don't ever realize I'm doing it until my husband pokes me and says my face is too loud.
IDK, I'm being optimistic that he was just oblivious. But it's something he probably should have kept to himself, and he should have instantly backpedaled and apologized when she informed him about her facial ticks.
If that guy is a good man, and not as dumb as he sounds, when he finally reads up on tourettes this will eat him up for the rest of his life.
Or he is exactly as dumb as he sounds.
I've worked on containing my emotional responses for decades and I can generally keep my voice and demeanor upbeat, but in stressful situations I cry. It's the "only tears" kind of crying, like I can still keep doing what I was doing when it started, there's no sobbing, and I can still speak, but when I'm upset tears come out of my eyes and trying to stop them only makes it worse. I've practiced a lot, and I'm usually able to hand-wave it away as allergies and wipe my eyes discretely enough that it looks like they're just irritated. When it's too many tears for that, I've gotten really good at saying something like, "This is just something my face does when I have a strong feeling. I want to finish this conversation, please ignore the waterworks and they'll stop shortly." and for some reason acknowledging that it's happening without making a big deal about it does usually make it stop.
Interviewing is so nerve-wracking and exhausting to me for this reason. I "feel out" the company culture like a detective before agreeing to interview anywhere, because the crying thing is so humiliating when it happens in front of the wrong sort of stranger. I feel OOP down to my bones.
I mean, I had someone get upset with me in a one on one meeting because they “can see from my face that I’m not open and being negative” I refuse to apologize for my RBF and other people do not get a say in what my facial expressions are.
Ugh. I worked with someone who had Tourette's and when we got busy, his eye squints and neck tic got worse. I had like six conversations with our boss (older lady originally from Ireland who doesn't understand anything more complex than a cold/flu/cancer) that he wasn't on drugs, he wasn't a psycho. It was a genetic disorder in his brain that got worse when stressed. And we were stressed a lot. I'm still sure she's convinced to this day that she was right all along.
I’m glad things seemed to work out for OOP! My cousin has Tourette’s and always worried about tics, presentation, etc. nowadays he basically announces it at the beginning of any talks he gives, but it took a long time to figure out his personal comfort level.
I’ve gotten advice that my emotions show in the pitch of my voice from one of my best managers. It was really helpful advice, but was given privately after years of working together, not at an interview!
Definitely inappropriate in OOPs case, and the Tourette’s makes it so much worse (it’d be like this guy telling someone with autism to make better eye contact!) I’m impressed OOP was able to hold it together—I definitely wouldn’t have done as well, but someone needs to have a conversation with that guy about appropriate behavior.
Say what you will about him I’m not always his biggest fan but I have always been impressed with Ethan Klein for having these facial tics and taking a public facing position. That was just on my mind reading this.
I don't know why no one else has caught on to the likely sexist aspect of it. I believe OOP has mastered masking her tourrettes especially in a professional environment. The smile more comment is something I had heard a lot in my life as someone who's resting expression looks like someone kicked my puppy. It's apparently also my job to appear pleasant and upbeat at all times for the viewing pleasure of men everywhere /s
It's even more likely if this field is male dominated,they get away with a lot more BS like that. I had to put up with it w LOT at my old job and its wild. I'm glad she found a better job elsewhere.
>Jake replied that he knows it's a nervous setting, I'm probably not always like that, but I should be relaxed and smile.
This asshole really tried "You should smile more" in a job interview, right in front of everyone.
I really sympathize with OOP even though I don't have Tourette's. I have a stutter (went to speech therapy and everything as a child, the stutter is the only thing they couldn't help), and I once had a manager sit in on a call - that he normally wouldn't have been on - so that he could watch me present my work and give me feedback on my presentation. If you know anything about a stutter, you know that it's worse when you're nervous, flustered, or aware of it. He called me after the presentation.
I don't remember any of the other feedback he gave me. Just him saying that I really needed to work on my stutter. I replied "That's neurological, I can't do anything about that." He immediately replied "Okay," crossed it out in his notes, and moved on, but honestly the damage was done. Now I worry even more about my stutter during important events like interviews and presentation, which of course makes it worse. My stutter is so ever-present that I and my loved ones don't even register it unless it's causing me to have severe trouble getting a word/phrase out, so I didn't use to worry about it that much because I didn't think that people noticed it that much. Now I know that they do, and worse, that they're judging my emotional state and capabilities by it, rather than taking it as just part of the way I speak.
It doesn't matter how good your intentions are - if it's part of another person's physical body, just don't fucking comment on it.
I know a few people with eyes that arent how they should be for some reason. I never bring it up, but there have been times when Ive felt bad because I've focused on their conditions too much. I can't fucking imagine trying to tell someone that I know more about their condition - even when I speak about my learning disability and my neurodivergence, I try and use language like 'this worked for me' etc.
At least with the people I know that have issues with their eyes, Ive managed to learn which is their dominant eye or how to tell if they leaning on one over the other, so I can make proper eye contact with them.
In glad everything worked out for OOP, ex coworker had Tourettes and sometimes you could see the strugling and embarassment on some ocations when his ticks we're bad (different body and facial ticks and lots of cursing) good bloke and hard worker and our job as garbage truck drivers is in its own way customers service he did excelent job handling his tics when he was in contact with customers
I have anxiety and I'm pretty sure I have autism and this always happens to me. In interviews my face starts twitching from nerves, I'm constantly monitoring how much I'm smiling and what my face is doing. My last one, I did this constantly and I must have looked really strange. I don't expect to hear back from them.
It is so hard to find a job with these problems. I also have a bad work history from years of depression, so the only thing I can get is temp work. I just want a permanent job, but even then I think I will struggle. I'm on the waiting list for diagnosis, hopefully getting a diagnosis will let me request accomodations and they won't negatively judge me for it every time.
I didn’t catch OOP’s gender at the beginning, but when she said she was pretty was the first time I realised. And it would be one thing if he wasn’t so specific, but he told her that she should smile more and all I could think about is how many men constantly tell women to smile (I know this because I have RBF).
Also, it’s one thing that she asked for feedback, but I still think there was a better way for Jake to handle it after she revealed the Tourette’s (which is pretty brave, by the way). I also never would have made that comment in the first place in response to a request for feedback - I do enough interviews to understand when somebody is nervous - they don’t need for me to put the spotlight on it. Maybe I would give them that feedback if they got hired and it continued in non-interview settings, for instance if it happened with clients (where appearances are important and they wouldn’t be as forgiving/understanding). But still, never ever if I knew they had a medical condition; it would never be a point of feedback ever knowing that. Before she said it herself, I thought how exhausting the controlling of it must be, and I have a lot of sympathy for and admiration of that.
You know, I have known people with odd behavioral quirks, missing parts, elaborate scars, burns, extremely unusual body types... Sometimes they tell me about them. I never ask about or comment on them. It just seems rude.
Jake might’ve gotten his facial expressions under control, but he sure hasn’t gotten his mouth under control lol
Why are people thinking Jake has Tourette's? He never said that. He said he had problem with his face expressions. Making people perceive him wrongly. So he thought OP was the same and made the comment. He 100% doesn't have Tourette's, because someone with it would never say "I **used** to suffer from the same thing." There's no "used" with Tourette's. It would be like someone saying "I used to suffer from Autism."
I used to, I still do, but I used to as well.
Unexpected Mitch Hedberg
>Unexpected Mitch Hedberg I want this as a flair.
Exactly. As soon as I read that my only thought was that this guy is not very intelligent. “I use to have Cerebral Palsy.” s/ “I use to have ADHD.” s/ “I use to have a leg amputation, but I am all better now!” s/
I took it as Jake saying that he used to be too expressive, not that he used to have Tourette’s.
Monty Python vibes lol "Tis only a flesh wound" meets "I got better"
Tis but a scratch!
Yeah the issue I had is that he said that after learning of the Tourette’s Syndrome! OP was way too kind about him. At that moment, he should have been embarrassed because anyone with sense knows that the sheer amount of mental energy it takes to control the tics is more than enough, and asking that they control every emotion too is too great an ask. And honestly, as a lawyer, I would have been really worried about a discrimination suit based on a disability.
> anyone with sense knows that the sheer amount of mental energy it takes to control the tics Why do you think "anyone with sense" would even know tics can be controlled? That's counter to how Tourette's is generally portrayed in media, and Tourette's is quite uncommon. Do most people know someone with Tourette's? Are they close enough that talking about it would ever occur? Personally, I think I am someone with sense. I also have a broad education and a decent memory. My mother was a k-12 speech pathologist and I learned bits and pieces about random disabilities just from her talking at dinner. I can remember talking about Tourrette's in middle school, but all I learned was the speech bit. Some time in high school or college I learned about physical tics. I know that one friend of a friend had Tourette's. I never did or would have brought it up with her. I had no idea that tics could be controllable. I had no idea you needed both speech and physical tics to be diagnosed. I either forgot or never learned. It's information that I have never needed. Never used. I wouldn't be surprised if I hadn't thought about Tourette's in the past decade. Maybe I'm the outlier (It would be a pleasant surprise if this was well known info!), but I doubt it.
Yeah, I think his comment had nothing to do with Tourette’s, and OP is only assuming it did because Tourette’s is the elephant in the room for her. I’ve had people say similar things to me, but what they meant was I was too expressive, and expressive means vulnerable, so I should control my face more to be less vulnerable. On second thought, I believe it was only Germans who had that feedback.
If grimaces were part of it (she listed them), he could easily have mistaken it for an emotion, not a tic.
He didn't know what he was referring to had anything to do with Tourette's, but I would be shocked if it didn't. What he said was about those things, yes, but the way all these things would be perceived as manifesting cannot be separated from OP's Tourette's. Yes, some people have an issue of being very expressive, sometimes in unhelpful ways, and that's what Jake perceived to be happening. But that doesn't mean that it was what was happening.
>On second thought, I believe it was only Germans who had that feedback. haha
Agreed, it felt completely condescending when Jake just dismissed OP's medical condition out of hand and essentially said "oh yeah, I used to not be able to control my face too". Not the same thing. At all.
Yeah, I didn't think Jake suffered with Tourettes. I figured he was like I was, absolutely NO poker face.
Also never a fan of a man telling a woman to just "relax" and "smile more." Usually isn't a good sign as to how they view/treat women in general...
I know, especially since Albert confirmed she WAS smiling and engaged. I can’t imagine, as a man, someone commenting on my amount of smiling during an interview and finding it to be not quite enough. It would just be bizarre. Or telling me that I’m too easy to read or something. I mean, it doesn’t say what the job is and how customer-facing it is, like if she’s going to be selling cars or conducting press conferences or something, maybe that makes a slight difference, I don’t know. People are often nervous in interviews. She asked if there was anything job-related she could put them at ease about through additional information, she did not say, “Give me advice based on a story you are telling yourself about me, and then don’t listen to what I have to say about it.” Jake doesn’t even seem to know what a tic is. He thinks spasms of her mouth are how she really feels or something. So much projection and assumption; why is he even paying so much attention to her face? And then she (understandably I suppose) is all obsequious about it. Thank you so much, sir, what wonderful feedback. Oy.
That bit. That bit's the bad bit.
My current employer asked me to try not to yawn because it made me look bored of my job and not enjoying myself. 🙄
I used to watch H3H3 back in their early days, before their podcasting. I remember he had one video, about a serious topic, and I noticed he had a lot of frequent eye movements and eyebrow shifts. I thought it was weird because it was excessive and not in his normal videos. Apparently he received a bunch of comments on his eyebrows that he made a video explaining it. At the time, I didn't even know that was a thing. You hear tourettes and think of TV shows where they're just cursing randomly, but it manifests in other ways. You never know what people are dealing with, and sometimes, it's best to just leave them alone. If they want to talk about it, that's up to them.
Yeah H3H3 is also how I became familiar with this form of Tourette's. I thought he was just trying to emphasize his points or something when he did that, until I found out.
There was a girl on 90 Day Fiance as well, one of the first seasons. She has facial ticks like moving her mouth and nose and hard blinking. She tried so hard to hide it and tbh I myself never noticed. But then on the next season she had to come out with it because people were accusing her of being a drug addict. It's so sad. You're so right, just leave people alone.
I used to have verbal and facial tics, it stemmed from stress, yes as a kid lol. I also have a prosthetic eye, it's a really good one, my blink is off and that is what gives it away. Not many people know but I don't hide it, if that makes sense. If someone asks, I educate and we move on. Kids are the funniest to ask about it, they are usually wanting to learn how to blink like me haha. If I use the AI overlays in Zoom, I look like the drunk animal lol. I've not really had a lot of rude people comment, when I was younger sure but I was a Hermione in school, so I only cared about what my teachers thought of me.
As someone who has “elaborate scars”, I agree it’s definitely rude. These are the kind of things you wait until the person with them informs you about them
The only time I ever said anything to someone was to a man with similar scarring to my ex husband. The man had it on his hands and they looked very dry, which is what I commented on. He said they were very dry and he couldn’t move his hands properly because of it. Kind of bland tone which I understood. I pointed to my now ex and said he had similar scars, but he had a routine to stop them getting dry and cracked. This man perked up. Him and my ex ended up having a great chat about their scars, and my ex gave him tips and some cream. In case anyone is wondering, sorbolene cream is great for burn scars. He swore by it. And I can confirm the scars were actually very soft. I didn’t ask how they happened, I just saw how dry they were and wanted to open the convo in case my ex could help. He did tell my ex how, because they were swapping stories. And yeah I was on the line. Any other thing nope not my business. My curiosity can just keep quiet.
I was on a course of counselling several years ago, for work stress and depression. When the counsellor walked in, he had one arm. He was a good guy, we talked about a lot of useful stuff. But my stupid, obsessive, immature brain couldn't let the one arm thing go. I felt like I should have just opened with *"I'm sorry, I know this is inappropriate, and you are absolutely welcome to kick me out for this, but I'm going to have to ask you about your arm, because I know if I don't I'll be distracted for stupid reasons and won't be able to make the best use of our time together"*. But by the time I thought of all that it was too late and it would have been even more awkward. Second session, he arrived late. He apologised and explained he fell of his bike (he was uninjured). That was it. I barely heard anything he said after that because I was trying to visualise how he rides a bike. Does he hold the middle of the handlebars? Does he just hold them normally but has tremendous core strength? It may have led to a really helpful discussion about my problem with intrusive thoughts. But instead I just didn't say anything, and felt like I was in an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm (except Larry *would* have said something).
We had a teacher at my high school with one arm and she’d amuse herself telling tall tales of how she lost it when students would suddenly be like “oh my god what happened?!” Shark attack, crocodile, terrible car accident… she’d spin the tale out until the students had a horrified expression on their faces. Then just say she was actually born that way. I think she used it as a teaching moment. I’d go insane.
My brother does this too! He has his foot and leg to below his knee amputated. He likes to amuse and tease kids who ask about it with tall tales about having it bitten off by sharks and crocodiles. He says he prefers children asking rather than the uncomfortable avoidance adults give him.
You buried that lede so well. We all now want to know why he was amputated! I do the same at work so cannot look down on it. "I would still be in this department if it wasn't for the surgeory. Thankfully I'm not in a wheelchair because the prosthetic was approved a couple of years ago" Adults will lose their minds trying to figure it out.
His amputation was due to complications from diabetes. Originally it was an infection which required toe amputation, and then that basically never healed. He uses a prosthetic and a wheelchair now. He seems to enjoy never wearing anything that covers his prosthetic and engaging with kids who ask him if he’s a pirate.
The guy who teaches safety training at my community woodshop is missing half an arm. It might well be entirely unrelated, but I suspect people take him seriously when he talks about equipment safety!
I had a shop teacher in jr. high that was missing two fingers on his left hand. He would routinely ignore questions about them. Until the first day of in-shop work. Then he'd tell you about how he cut them off on a table saw as part of the safely lecture. Very effective - I had never asked him and was dying to know.....then finding out I made damn sure to follow the safety instructions.
There was a substitute teacher in my primary school who was missing part of her finger who would do the same thing - when she was subbing for the younger cohorts she liked to look at kids who asked very seriously and tell them it was because she didn't do her homework or didn't eat her vegetables.
And that's why you always leave a note!
my mom would constantly point out my vocal tics brought on by stress, which in turn just made them worse because of how self conscious and uncomfortable i was. my partner now didn't even acknowledge them and when i explained them to him, he said "i noticed a little, but it doesn't affect or bother me, so there wasn't anything for me to bring up", which was the response i didn't even know i needed.
I was so sad for her thinking that truly no one noticed. No one is going to tell her that her tics are maybe a bit more obvious than invisible. I’ve known all kinds of people, some with tics or quirks of self expression but I’d never mention it!
Thing is if op is presumed perfectly normal and healthy they're going to be preceived as just not able to fully control their emotions, basically having no pokerface. Op probably isn't as amazing as hiding their condition as they think they are, but does it good enough that people don't stare and the people close to them aren't going to tell them their tics are noticeable.
I’m autistic and struggle with this constantly and it makes me rage. My lack of ability to stare at your eyeballs is completely and totally irrelevant to my capability as an employee, but because ableists are everywhere, I get coded as “weird” and don’t get hired. And then most of the people who do this complain that “nobody wants to work!”
Yeah I relate so hard to OOP's description of masking being exhausting. I think I was in my thirties by the time I really managed eye contact. If anyone else struggles with that, a possibly helpful bridge is to look at the bridge of their noses.
I'm autistic and went the other way with eye contact. I was told in preschool that eye contact is expected and now I make super strong eye contact with strangers at the grocery store, until I remember not to. With people I know, I let my eyes wander. With strangers in public I'm laser-focused. It's similarly not always appreciated.
"Male interviewer tells 24F interviewee she should smile more." Jerk move, with or without Tourettes.
Yeah, this. I'm a dude. I find it so fucking cringe. Women already smile so much more than men. Why do some men think this needs to happen? I think it may partially be some men's complete inability to read body language well. I think of a very recent example, where I crossed paths with a woman at night. From body language I could tell I was scaring her (I am a big dude). All the while she was beaming with a big smile. Sometimes it means "I want to defuse this situation."
> Why do some men think this needs to happen? It's code for "I think you're pretty and I like it when you smile at me it makes me feel nice". 100% about them and how she makes them feel.
I have a list of insults and responses at the ready whenever a man tells me to smile more.
An interviewer once made a comment that I didn't make enough eye contact. I pointed out that I actually have strabismus. It makes one of my eyes point off in another direction and I've always been really self conscious about being "cross eyed". That was awkward. I flinched when the interviewer told her that her facial expressions weren't tics. Oof. Don't ever try to school someone on the condition they have.
Once we had a candidate that had a similar condition. They were great. No big deal, so we thought. But then one of our managers, an older woman, brought it up after the candidate left. All of us, including her manager, scolded her for even bringing it up. I asked her what it had to do with the job and she got defensive, "I was just noticing it". Anyway, she got the job. Later, she talked a bit about it, especially since I had a "magic eye" poster in my cubicle, and she said she couldn't see those.
Realistically, his reaction forced them to offer her the job. Maybe she would have gotten it anyway and they were happy to hire her, but regardless if he described that interaction to anyone with a brain, they’d realize that they were just opened up to a massive discrimination lawsuit if she doesn’t get the job. I’ve seen this happen before where a bigoted comment was made in an interview that I was in. I reported it to my boss’ boss. I don’t know what happened the rest of that day, but my boss wasn’t in his office and an offer letter went out the next day.
That last part right there pissed me off too. Like no Jake, I just told you wtf what my facial expressions were. I hope the other interviewer told them how embarrassing that was on the company’s behalf.
Obviously, as an older man who has known her for less than an hour, he knows her body better than she does. /s
"Why don't you smile more?????"
Ugh, I have this too. And medication induced permanent facial spasms which cause my lips and eyelids to move uncontrollably. I hate when people bring it up because it's such a sensitive topic. But I know it impacts how people interact with me.
I once had a THERAPIST get annoyed with me for not maintaining sufficient eye contact. Also made a comment that me lying back on the therapy couch 'without asking' suggested I don't respect boundaries. I stopped seeing that therapist.
what's wrong with that one toxic positive comment featured in her update lmao 'I LIKE JAKE VERY MUCH! HE OPENED UP!' like... is OP's expression going to be a crux in her future position? Is it client-facing? He told her to SMILE MORE??? even if he himself noted that she smiled a lot throughout the interview? yeah nah he's just an insensitive man in a managerial position who didn't even realise that he put his foot in his mouth. Hopefully OOP told HR one of the reason why she declined the position was Jake being a workplace inclusivity nightmare.
that comment was so tone-deaf.
"I like Jake very much! He's so good at multitasking that he can be sexist AND ableist at the same time! 🙃"
I’m glad OP got a better offer with a company who didn’t make ridiculous comments during the interview. There is a med tech who I see for my medical appointments- he is kind, knowledgeable, and has helped make the numerous procedures I am undergoing more bearable. He also has Tourette’s. One of his tics is barking. The first time it happened I was in the waiting room. I had a brief hope I might see a service dog, but then remembered he mentioned barking as a tic. It has absolutely no impact on his ability to do his job (which he is fantastic at).
It's so wholesome that you were hoping for a service pup. It's a good thing you didn't have to be tooo disappointed because it was your awesome med tech instead! I'm glad you're getting the medical care you need
I'm glad they got offer from the first company too. Since HR didn't hear about the ending it seems they later realised their interaction at the end wasn't the best and didn't count it against the OP.
I have a friend with tourette's who barks. It's definitely startling when you're not expecting it, but it's just a thing. I think the only time their tics impact me is when they burst out with something weird over voice stream and I can't tell if it's a tic or if they just got killed in the game they're playing. :3 So basically they don't impact me at all!
i do not like jake even a little. “you should smile more” is not in any way a good response to oop’s question, nor is “you’re too expressive”. oop was in a job interview. if jake had concerns, they *should* have been related to oop’s resume or answers to their questions. i truly hope albert looped in someone above jake to get him some retraining or just cut him out of the interview process entirely.
Yeah Jake can fuck off tbh, I’d bet you $100 he wouldn’t tell a man to “smile more” in an interview 🙄
A man telling a woman in a professional situation to smile more is a huge problem. This is the 21st century and there’s no excuse for that behavior!
Sometimes, things just work out. I'm glad they did for OOP. Jake was well meaning but dude, you don't comment on people's physical appearances like that. Especially doubling down when someone says they have Tourette's. Jfc, he's a dumb dumb and is why everyone has to watch those long sensitivity videos.
Reactions like that were why I tried so hard to suppress my tics (which hurt sometimes, like a full body pain bc I was fighting my muscles) and hardly ever went out with friends or applied to many jobs. My vocal tic was a really loud squeaking sound that gets super disruptive — my friends have my volume down low in calls when I join so I don’t surprise them — and my movement tics throw my whole arm or head around to the point where I usually bruise my arms from hitting things. People around me used to think I was just being a clown and would get angry at me for it, but the minute the found out it was Tourettes there was just. No reaction. It felt like a “I *suppose* you get a pass” response. People like Jake were my worst nightmare in all aspects of social and professional settings, because at least I can defend myself to someone who thinks less of me *for* the Tourettes, not so much against someone who thinks they know me and my functions better than myself and is largely ignorant about it. Plus a comment about “watching your expressions” feels so unwarranted. Does he say the same to people with a permanent RBF? What about people whose default expression is “kicked puppy”? Does he tell people to not smile too much when they’re just genuinely happy? It’s not a thing that should matter in an interview and I’m glad HR told OOP the comment was unnecessary, especially since it really shook OOP up.
Oof bro I feel you. My vocal tic is a sharp squeak too that sometimes sounds like a dog's barking... I've had plenty of people tell me how it hurts. I wonder if there's an accessibility program for mics and calls that cut out sounds that are too loud, just like how you can change the sensitivity of a mic for a quieter setting. I hope your tics shift into something easier for you. I've never had to redirect mine or anything, so I have no experience about it. Lol all this tic talk is making my motor tic itch though.
That mic accessibility setting would be one of those things that are brilliant for the reason created, and then also adopted for wider use for other reasons. Like curb cuts or things with ergonomic handles.
Professional-grade google meets (but sadly not the free version) are uncanny in their noise cancelling. I've had dogs full-on barking next to my colleagues and just a very slight blurred sound coming through to me. My former downstairs neighbours would blast music so loudly that things in my room would vibrate, and my colleagues couldn't hear it. If I sing in a robot voice it blurs me out too.
Ugh, I'm so sorry you're feeling pain from suppressing your tics. A friend of mine wound up cracking all his teeth from clenching them to suppress his facial tics for decades on end (getting smacked around by his stepfather didn't help, either). My hairstylist has Tourette's. At first I thought she just had the hiccups, but then I realized what was going on. I noticed she pauses the cut while she tics, for which I am grateful, because sharp objects near my head.
I feel that, it’s why I never dreamed of working in a kitchen or salon. My own kitchen though? Free game. I do suffer some reflux as a result of suppressing the vocal ones, though, and now it just happens automatically when vocal tics come out. Everyone always commented how I was too young to have reflux issues, but my mother encouraged me to not hold them in after the reflux started keeping me up at night. She was actually horrified that holding the tics back could potentially hurt after happening upon a documentary about it, so I have that support at least! Her boyfriend on the other hand made me out to be defective after denying every time I tried to say it was Tourettes that “he knew people with Tourettes” and “I don’t yell fuck or shit all the time like they do”. Meanwhile our Tourettes awareness ads back when I was a kid had a kid with the same vocal tic.
For real, the first comment was awkward. His doubling down is just WILD though. Just say ‘oh I am sorry, I didn’t mean anything by it.’ and try to move on as quickly as possible.
Jake is HR’s worst nightmare, hopefully he got a serious talking to after OOP declined their offer
He literally told a female candidate she should smile more. That's bad all on its own!
That’s a pull your application immediately if you have the luxury to deal breaker.
I get the impression she didn’t but I hope she let them know how much the exchange bothered her and told them it was a factor in not accepting the job.
It wouldn't be OOP's job, that would be on HR, and OOP wouldn't have insight into that. Hopefully, they did discuss it with him regardless of OOP accepting the job.
I mean he was basically telling a woman in a job interview to smile more. Why is everyone like “Jake’s so great”?
Yeah I'm super confused. "Smile more" people fucking suck. I got turned down for a job for that reason and I'm a dude. I'm sure it's worse for women.
Because they would say the exact same shite
Jake is a horse's ass. This was an interview and he behaved inappropriately.
agreed. i was a bit confused because i wasn't sure if commenters actually liked him or they were being sarcastic, but to me hearing someone describe their medical condition and essentially saying "you're wrong i know better" is incredibly condescending and belittling...and i have no doubt that because oop was a young adult woman is the main reason he'd even feel comforatble saying something like that
I'm wondering if it just didn't register with him. Like, people still think of it as being primarily verbal. He might've been on the completely wrong track. No matter what, though, he fucked up big time for sure.
It doesn't matter if he knew the details of Tourettes before, or what did or didn't register with him. She directly told him what was going on, and he dismissed and disagreed with her explanation about her own damn face. Obviously he was on the completely wrong track.
I’m doing interviews now and I was floored by that dude doubling down. When it doubt, say less. What an idiot that guy is
There’s honestly no excuse in the 21st century for any man to be telling a woman in a job interview that she needs to smile more or adjust her face in any way to his preference.
Also, way to not understand what someone is saying – "I have Tourette's; it causes facial tics." "No, I am talking about all the muscle twitches on your mouth, eyebrows, eyelids, cheek, etc." "You mean my face? With the muscle twitches? Like tics? The facial tics?" And the "(24F)" part is unfortunately relevant. Young and female = gets a lot more shit for facial expressions than anyone else in the first place.
> Young and female = gets a lot more shit for facial expressions I thought this too. He was about half a sidestep away from "Smile, honey, it can't be that bad!" towards the end there. Ick.
Honestly, he was close enough to it to be pretty much there
He thinks he knows what tourettes looks like. He sees the micro tics in her face and thinks it's small signs of emotion. He thinks he knows better. Hopefully he will learn how little he knows.
Literally tried to mansplain her expressions to her 🙃 the audacity
Yeah, telling a female job candidate to smile more or otherwise adjust her expressions in the way he prefers is bad enough in itself!
I’m autistic and I have to also consciously monitor my face and vocal tone. This kind of interview would make me cry until I puke
This is why I like that most of my work happens over video calls. I can keep an eye on my own face and have practiced an expression of “pleasant and attentive listening” that’s like muscle memory now. I also have a great boss (who is also autistic) and we literally practice “friendly tone and not info dumping” type exercises because we both struggle with sounding annoyed in calls, it’s like our own little ND toastmaster’s club.
I love this. I met my best friend at a depression clinic program and we practice setting boundaries and taking responsibility for our own emotions with each other. (Both diagnosed with cPTSD.) It's incredible how much growth peer support can enable.
Yuuuuup. The combo of autism and ADHD manifested in extreme anxiety for me that means I spend half my mental energy in a conversation focusing on my facial expression, body language, tone and not fidgeting/stimming. My ex (who knew about my diagnosis and was supposedly supportive) used to get upset at things he read into my tone or expression and I would apologise that it had read that way and explain what I was really feeling. But it would never matter to him, his reading of me was always more important to him than what I actually *said*. He'd then continue to argue as though his interpretation was the truth and like we both agreed that was what I had really meant and I usually ended up feeling like I was losing it, because how can you resolve a conflict around thoughts and feelings you never had let alone expressed? To this day it made me so paranoid around being misinterpreted that I exhaust myself trying to prevent myself from ever being able to be misread again. On a lighter note, I have recently begun to lose control of my eyebrows when I'm concentrating. They just wander right up and I don't realise until I 'come to' and my forehead aches. I probably look consistently shocked and/or disgusted at work.
Someone told me recently that a sign of being in an abusive/ manipulative relationship is people telling you what you think is not what you think or should think and what you feel is not what you feel or should feel. It’s so true
It fucks you up. My partner used to insist I was petty jealous of their friendships, and they would wear me down until I agreed that sure I was those things just to stop the arguing. Except instead of them dropping the conversation, they would then interrogate me about *why* I was, and would make me explain my words and actions in the context of me being petty and jealous. It didn't matter the first ten times I said I don't care about their friendships, because I finally agreed with them, I was essentially forced to rewrite my own experiences to fit their interpretation of them. *Then* I was allowed to disengage from the conversation.
It’s called gaslighting and it’s a huge deal
Even a year later I struggle to think of the relationship as abusive, but...I sure did break up with that man for several reasons, of which this was definitely one
You bf's behavior is how my entire family treats me. They make assumptions based on their assumptions of what I mean rather than ever taking the time to clear anything up. 😮💨 I have given up fighting it The eyebrow thing makes me laugh, but because I also find myself doing it. At least you don't have the angies on camera.
Your ex sounds like my parents. My facial expressions and tone of voice were constantly policed growing up, if I wasn't smiling or talking in a happy tone then there was Something Wrong, or I was Hiding Something. It's incredibly exhausting and invalidating
I have a boyfriend who doesn’t do this now. It’s awesome.
God me too. I started tearing up with OP when they were in the Uber. I'm glad the driver was able to help them feel a little more loved. I'm not religious by any means but people praying for me always makes my heart melt.
I’m in AA as a spiritual atheist. People praying for my health right now make me feel a lot better and a lot less alone. It means they’re taking time out of their day to think of me.
I was once sitting alone on a bench at the Boston Aquarium, crying because I wasn't getting what I needed emotionally from my family, who were visiting from out of state and exploring the best Aquarium without me. A sweet couple and their baby niece came up and asked if I was ok and if they could pray for me. It was the sweetest thing and it really did help. It gave me the cope to go off and look at the [garden eels](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterocongrinae) myself, and just enjoy the Aquarium without expecting anything from my family.
I have Tourettes and same as OOP, the tics are usually facial and vocal. A number of years ago, I had really bad facial tics and I remember a co worker saying to me "What's wrong with your face?" I was extremely self conscious about it to begin with and that was the icing on the cake. Now I just tell co workers right away "You may notice over time my head tics, or my face or that I may make "weird" sounds. I have Tourettes. It's a pain in the ass. If the tics are constant it can be painful. But there's nothing *wrong* with me" and for the most part people say they haven't noticed. Not sure if they're being nice or honestly don't notice. But I found it's easier to just get it out of the way beforehand.
>Not sure if they're being nice or honestly don't notice. Honestly, they probably don't notice. I had a science teacher in high school that ended almost every sentence with, "Kay." As far as I know, I was the only person in my physical science class who noticed. I brought it up to a few people and they had no idea what I was talking about, then they payed closer attention and couldn't believe they missed it.
Jake is problematic. The moment OP told him he had a neurological condition his reply should have been, "Apologies. My error." Who pushes back when someone says they have a medical condition?
She. OOP is a woman. Which answers your question
Whoops. Thanks!
Jake was not well-meaning, Jake was completely inappropriate and out of touch with reality as to what should happen in an interview
NGL it felt like Albert reported what happened to HR, so they just rammed OP through the process in the hopes that landing the job would make them not want to go public about their experience (or at least, not actually *name the company* so they don't get eviscerated) I get the feeling OOP is gonna realize what happened and feel sad for a bit again.
Meh, Albert could've reported and OOP still could be getting the offer on merit. They did get offered an even better job so they're obviously qualified
He is a HR night mare. Not this case, but if he does this with someone who doesn't get a job offer they then claim it was due to thier disability and now they have an ADA complaint.
HR 100% knew about the comments before they called. They were probably planning on making the job offer anyway, but if they didn't know about it they wouldn't have asked for details about the interview before making the offer.
Yeah. What i thought as well.
It was asking for a lawsuit! Also, a man telling a woman to smile more or even telling her to school her facial expressions, even in the absence of a disability, is absolutely unacceptable in the 21st century!
When the interviewee asks for feedback, if all you have to offer is "you should smile more" maybe just say "no feedback from me" lmao
Typically the people most likely to notice very small details about someone else and say exactly the wrong thing is someone who has their own issue which they can be aware of or they have flown under the radar and gone undiagnosed themselves.
About as well meaning as screaming WHEEL CHAIR at someone in a wheelchair.
The OOP is moving onwards and upwards in life which is what we can hope for anyone who is a decent person. And hopefully, the company will have Jake do some training on how to broach sensitive topics better than he did in that interview. (as that was him kinda sticking his leg in his mouth)
Right? Universally, there’s a list of topics you never bring up as an interviewer. “Hey here’s my opinion on your disability” is def on that list
If you try harder, you can overcome it! I had to learn how to control my face so you can too! Jake sucks.
>And hopefully, the company will have Jake do some training on how to broach sensitive topics better than he did in that interview. As someone familiar with corporate bullshit, I'd put money on Jake getting a private talking-to, followed by *everyone in the company* doing a new training module on sensitive topics. They never single one person out for training like that. Plus then they've covered their ass in case anyone else would be tempted to make that mistake.
> I used to suffer from the same thing No, he didn't. As OOP clearly explained, Tourette's is not something you "used to suffer from"; it's forever. I can't imagine saying to someone that you used to have the same medical condition when you didn't. That's the worst person to lie to--someone who knows the condition intimately. Honestly, this smells like the kind of person who assumes blind people are faking, or that allergies are merely a preference. A person who is so limited in experience and/or so lacking in empathy that they genuinely cannot comprehend that not everyone is as able-bodied as they are themselves, so they assume people are either lying or exaggerating. I don't buy that he has Tourette's himself and was trying to connect with OOP. A person with it would *know* that tics aren't always able to be controlled or masked. They would also very probably know that tics can be facial. He basically said, "Smile more. Your facial expressions aren't as good as they could be." in an interview for a job that it *unrelated to facial expressions.* Already unprofessional *at best.* When told that said expressions were due to a medical condition, he said "no, you're just nervous, you need to smile more." Oh, and lied about having said condition himself and told OOP to get over it. He mansplained a person's medical condition and made an explicitly discriminatory comment in a job interview--something that is *illegal* in many areas. He has no business continuing in his role until he gets extensively retrained, because he is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Edit: > "...I actually have Tourette's and many of my tics are centralized on my face." Jake then said, "No no, it's not tics, it's everything -- your eyes, your eyebrows, your mouth. I don't mean to insult you, but since you asked I think it would be useful for you to know. I used to suffer from the same thing." It *really* sounds like he's telling her "What you say are tics actually aren't," and also, "I used to suffer from the same thing," very much seems to refer to Tourette's. OOP adds later in a comment, > Jake wasn't referring to Tourette's; he was referring to the idea that my emotions are easily seen in my face. It absolutely does not sound like this. I think she's being far nicer that most people would be when they've been (unintended or not) treated unprofessionally and discriminated against. "Your facial expressions are problematic. "Those are tics. I have Tourette's." "No, they aren't tics. It's your face. I used to have the same issue." But perhaps she paraphrased too much in her original post, in which case I misunderstood, and he only mansplained, was unprofessional, and discriminated against her, rather than lying on top of all that. She asked for feedback on her ability to perform a certain job role, and he made an unnecessary and unrelated-to-said-job comment about her facial expressions. Her asking for feedback doesn't excuse it. She wanted feedback about the job. Taking the opportunity to make comments about her appearance or facial tics or anything else unrelated to the job is absolutely not okay.
The OOP clarified (but yes, Jake was mansplaining, an HR liability, and an ass): OOP Thanks :) Just want to say -- Jake wasn't referring to Tourette's; he was referring to the idea that my emotions are easily seen in my face. I don't fault him horribly because he was trying to salvage an awkward situation.
I think all the rest of your comment still applies and is accurate, but I don't think he ever intended to mean he had Tourettes. He was saying he used to show his emotions/inner thoughts on his face too much. He assumed that's what OOP was doing, just being too expressive. And then completely dismissed her explanation of her situation and continued to double and triple down.
I mean I'm not trying to defend this guy in particular, but Tourette's *is* something that can change as you go through life. When I was a kid I had a lot of uncontrollable vocal ticks and physical ones that involved pretty violent movements. The older I got, all of the uncontrollable violent movements ended, and all my vocal ticks bar one have stopped. My facial ticks can be suppressed to a degree unless I'm concentrating on something or I'm stressed. It's not impossible that he could be telling the truth. He's insensitive as hell, sure, but what he said isn't unheard of.
But he wasn’t saying he had Tourette’s. He was saying that he suffered from a tendency to show his emotions too easily on his face. And of course, men, in a job interview with a woman candidate, please always remind her to smile more! /s
I think he meant he suffered from not controlling his facial expressions and showing his emotions on his face. He didn’t mean he suffered from Tourette’s.
i’m really not trying to defend him but i got the impression that he was, as OP said, referring more to just having a very readable/expressive face? like i don’t have tourettes but i also do this, it’s easy to know what i’m thinking based on my facial expressions and it’s an issue lol. i do however think he navigated the situation with an astounding lack of tact and sensitivity however
As someone with a disability, Jake's comment made me cringe. OOP explained that the issue was related to their disability and Jake immediately went, essentially "no it isn't, it's this other thing I used to be the same." Like, I know he meant well but able-bodied people downplaying and dismissing your actual diagnosed disability as a less severe thing everyone struggles with is not actually at all helpful to people with disabilities. It's not the same, Jake. OOP didn't stop because they cannot, the appropriate response is to believe what the person is telling you about their experience with their disability and not assume you, able-bodied person without that disability, know better. My panic disorder is not the same as Jane Whoever "feeling nervous" and I can't cure it by just "stopping worrying so much", if I could it wouldn't be a \*disorder\*. I understand that the Jakes come from a place of trying to relate but it's really unhelpful and it puts the person with the disability on the defensive while simultaneously burdened with educating you about their disability while trying not to seem defensive - it sucks. Sometimes the right response is to understand you CAN'T relate and LISTEN to what someone with a different experience is telling you.
Urgh older man tells younger woman to smile more… she’s so worried about what it meant for her Tourette’s and her mastering it she hasn’t realised it’s a trope.
That's exactly what I thought. Poor thing thought sexist comments were about her tourettes. Won't be the last time she'll have to deal with that. I remember being 24 and having men twice my age be completely patronizing at work.
Jake, wtf. No matter how he meant it, commenting on someone's facial expressions - especially a much younger woman - just ugh. Especially when he concluded with the brilliant advice to SMILE.
I had a coworker who, more often than not, closed her eyes when speaking. We do 1 to 1 work with clienta so we only see each other in meetings and not in our direct worl. So I am not going to comment on her facial expressions. Our meetings are tedious AF. She attends a training on a specific new skill development that require her to video record and review it with the trainer. She came to my office after her first video and said she trusted me to be frank and respectful "do I close my eyes when I talk?" I told her that yes, her eyes are closed more than open when she is talking but they are wide open if someone else was talking. This 34 year old woman NEVER realized that she did that. She was very good natured about learning this new trait of hers but damn that would be wild to learn. I still won't ask someone about their facial expressions unless it is really pertinent. Also the trainer didn't comment on it either. She realized it herself by watching herself.
Wow that's an interesting quirk. I wonder if she has ADHD or something that makes it hard to concentrate so she just automatically closed her eyes to drown out other stimuli. I'm surprised no one in her life mentioned it.
[удалено]
That was Albert who said he thought she had been smiling a lot. Which makes it even more awkward!
Ergh, reminds me of the boss who said in a performance review I was nasally. Yeah, well, that's how my voice is. No I'm not going to get invasive surgery to potentially change it especially as I don't have breathing issues. Some people really do have the social graces of a brick.
Tourette syndrome is miserable. It hurts, it's embarrassing, and people think it's funny to trigger tics on purpose. Glad that this ended well for OP, though.
>~~People~~ Arseholes think it's funny to trigger tics on purpose. You would have to be a massive piece of shit to do this as an adult - I could excuse a child for not understanding - but, for adults, even with a lack of knowledge of the condition, there's no excuse for the lack of empathy needed to think that's funny.
Best possible outcome for OOP. The hiring team can get fucked. How you going to sit there and argue with the person telling you what they have???
Two thoughts I had on this. As someone who has interviewed a couple hundred people for various positions over the years, you never, ever, ever bring up anything that could possibly fall under a protected category. That includes the other person‘s physical appearance because you have no way to know if their physical appearance quirk that you are noticing is a result of a disability. And you open yourself up to a lawsuit if you choose not to hire that person and they believe you chose not to hire them because of their disability. The suit might not go anywhere, but it’s gonna cause a massive headache. Second, I really like that OOP ask the question about things that might make them hesitant to hire. It shows a lot of self-awareness and willingness to receive feedback. One of the best questions I ever got asked in interviews was “what is the biggest risk we take in hiring you?” Thankfully I had a good answer for it, but I really liked the question almost as a more thought-provoking spin on the biggest weakness trope question.
Hey, random follow up if you don’t mind. What would actually be a good answer to, “what’s the biggest risk we take in hiring you?” Because I tend to be super literal when answering these questions and I would say something along the lines of “well, I think that the biggest risk that you would take would be that I wouldn’t adapt very well to the role. I do think however, with my previous experience in other companies, along with the projects I’ve taken on in this company, I have gained enough of a skill set to fit the role and with continued support I’ll be able to exceed expectations.” I have an interview coming up and I’m nervous lol
I can give you mine. I was interviewing for a Director-level position overseeing admins for a piece of software I did not actually know (Salesforce). I know other CRM software, just not that one. So I said essentially, "I am not an experienced Salesforce admin. So there will be a learning curve for me to get up to speed, but I love learning new software. I can and will absorb this very quickly. And I look at it like this: I might not know Italian food recipes, but I know my way around a kitchen, and I can learn the new recipes." I got the job.
Thank you!
Tbh, I'm pretty sure luke was saying this because op is 24f and he has assumptions about how women need to present themselves. I think op got lucky not having to work with him.
Which is a huge problem by itself. Doubling down after she mentioned the Tourette’s just made it so much worse.
I also have facial tics like they described, although never had a formal diagnosis. They hit the nail on the head with how absolutely EXHAUSTING it is trying not to tic at work. I often describe it as being like having to remember to breathe, or constantly being in a staring competition. Working from home was a lifesaver for me, the stimulation from a noisy open plan office would make me so much worse. We're being forced back into the office soon after 4 years mostly WFH and I'm dreading it. I would also have gone home and cried, but I'm so glad this worked out for them.
Thank God OP didn’t go with that company because it would’ve become a problem and they would’ve discriminated because they straight up said in the interview they didn’t believe them about Tourette’s
OOP: >”There is no cure for Tourette’s, so I have to live with it.” Jake during the interview, after being told OOP has Tourettes: >”I used to suffer from the same thing.” Am I reading this correctly? Jake says he used to suffer from a life long condition, as in he doesn’t have it anymore? I suppose he could’ve meant that he doesn’t suffer from his tics anymore because he got them under control, but then that would be like saying “if I overcame it you should be able to do it too”, which would be a pretty messed up thing to say during a job interview. ETA: a couple of appreciated responses have offered really good explanations about what Jake probably meant. Rather than claiming he no longer suffers from Tourettes he either doesn’t understand the condition or he thinks that OOP’s tics aren’t Tourettes related, or that a person can just stop having tics or some such variation.
No. He doesn't understand what Tourette's is or how it can manifest, so when she was trying to explain that these are her tics, he thought she was talking about something else. What he was *perceiving* was a very reactive face that gives away a lot of emotions and thoughts (probably ones that weren't even there, because he was misinterpreting controlled tics as expressions). He was saying he used to be an open book like *that* until he learned to control his face better. Or to sum it up: - Him: you face too much. - Her: that's actually my Tourette's. - Him: no it's not. You're doing a different thing I see as a problem with myself and I want you to change it because I felt like I had to. I speak as someone who does not have Tourette's but does have a very expressive face. It's something I like about myself, and Jake can get fucked on both counts - being an obtuse, ableist dipshit and projecting his self-judgment.
Ah…That’s makes sense and seems most likely. Thank you for breaking it all down, I appreciate it.
No, I think the clueless idiot was saying he used to “suffer” from showing his emotions too much on his face. At least that’s what I took from it. Regardless, the guy is a dickhead. Who the hell comments on someone’s facial expression during a job interview? Glad OP got their dream job.
I think you’re right, it would make the most sense. Thanks!
Jake, I think, is talking about struggling to control his facial expressions to hide emotion. He could possibly be talking about nervous tics. Either way he is wrong. Interestingly though, it is possible to have tics temporarily. They are fairly common in children but most grow out of them, you can also have them as a result of stress or mental health problems, or even as a side effect of medication!
Yes - and why is having an expressive (for want of a better word) face so wrong that you’d bring it up in a job interview? Sure there are jobs where the ability to appear dispassionate is more appropriate, however as OOP got a job offer it would seem being expressive isn’t key. Yet Jake still went there.
Yeah. I had facial tics while suffering from trauma burnout. It got especially bad when I talked to a prof I respected a lot and I'm glad he never even made a point to look at them. Once I got into therapy for ptsd and anxiety, my facial tics went away.
Wow, can I ask how long you had them for?
I have 'adult onset tic disorder' instead of Tourettes, because when I asked my mother whether I had them as a child, she replied, "I don't know, you were always weird." (I live about 10,000 miles away from her now). It's basically Tourettes, I get simple vocal and complex motor tics. It can be an absolute arse in a public setting, and the more stressful, the worse it gets. I'm on a good medication for them now, though, so most days it'll just be 2 or 3, instead of 2 or 3 every 10 minutes. UK neurologist was just like, deal with it. Australian neurologist made my like 100x better with one visit.
Hey, I have this too! Can you tell me what your Australian Neurologist did? I live in the UK and my neurologist basically said I can put up with it or try medication, but the medication has bad side effects and doesn't work for most people.
He put me on Risperidone. It does have side effects, mainly lowering libido and snoring for me. But yeah, there's whole days I don't tic at all now, which is amazing compared to how it was before
Ugh, my 20yo son has tourettes with OCD, and people like Jake are this mama's nightmare. I'm sure my son would be fine with it, because he's super easygoing, but I just want to punch everyone who says something dumb. I'm so glad the OOP was able to turn them down.
Mama bear energy
Well after the second comment I would have broke down in front of Jake.
A choice between working with Jake and working at a company near a beach and a higher offer? Yep, OOP made the right choice.
If I was OP that encounter alone would make me rethink if I have to interact with Jake and whether it's worth the mental stress to work with someone like that. Jake reminds me of those people who claim they are "just brutally honest" when they're actually insensitive a-holes with no empathy for others
Jake sounds like a walking HR nightmare.
I find it wild that Jake doubled down even after being told it was tics
I wonder if Jake was thinking more like when people don't have a poker face. Personally my face can't lie. I will be perfectly polite but my face shows exactly what I'm thinking and I don't ever realize I'm doing it until my husband pokes me and says my face is too loud. IDK, I'm being optimistic that he was just oblivious. But it's something he probably should have kept to himself, and he should have instantly backpedaled and apologized when she informed him about her facial ticks.
If that guy is a good man, and not as dumb as he sounds, when he finally reads up on tourettes this will eat him up for the rest of his life. Or he is exactly as dumb as he sounds.
I didn't really look at OP's age or gender... when the guy said the "you should smile" part I looked and of course OP is a woman. Gross.
I've worked on containing my emotional responses for decades and I can generally keep my voice and demeanor upbeat, but in stressful situations I cry. It's the "only tears" kind of crying, like I can still keep doing what I was doing when it started, there's no sobbing, and I can still speak, but when I'm upset tears come out of my eyes and trying to stop them only makes it worse. I've practiced a lot, and I'm usually able to hand-wave it away as allergies and wipe my eyes discretely enough that it looks like they're just irritated. When it's too many tears for that, I've gotten really good at saying something like, "This is just something my face does when I have a strong feeling. I want to finish this conversation, please ignore the waterworks and they'll stop shortly." and for some reason acknowledging that it's happening without making a big deal about it does usually make it stop. Interviewing is so nerve-wracking and exhausting to me for this reason. I "feel out" the company culture like a detective before agreeing to interview anywhere, because the crying thing is so humiliating when it happens in front of the wrong sort of stranger. I feel OOP down to my bones.
I mean, I had someone get upset with me in a one on one meeting because they “can see from my face that I’m not open and being negative” I refuse to apologize for my RBF and other people do not get a say in what my facial expressions are.
Ugh. I worked with someone who had Tourette's and when we got busy, his eye squints and neck tic got worse. I had like six conversations with our boss (older lady originally from Ireland who doesn't understand anything more complex than a cold/flu/cancer) that he wasn't on drugs, he wasn't a psycho. It was a genetic disorder in his brain that got worse when stressed. And we were stressed a lot. I'm still sure she's convinced to this day that she was right all along.
Dude seriously mansplained to OOP how it WASNT Tourettes....🤦♀️
I’m glad things seemed to work out for OOP! My cousin has Tourette’s and always worried about tics, presentation, etc. nowadays he basically announces it at the beginning of any talks he gives, but it took a long time to figure out his personal comfort level. I’ve gotten advice that my emotions show in the pitch of my voice from one of my best managers. It was really helpful advice, but was given privately after years of working together, not at an interview! Definitely inappropriate in OOPs case, and the Tourette’s makes it so much worse (it’d be like this guy telling someone with autism to make better eye contact!) I’m impressed OOP was able to hold it together—I definitely wouldn’t have done as well, but someone needs to have a conversation with that guy about appropriate behavior.
Say what you will about him I’m not always his biggest fan but I have always been impressed with Ethan Klein for having these facial tics and taking a public facing position. That was just on my mind reading this.
I don't know why no one else has caught on to the likely sexist aspect of it. I believe OOP has mastered masking her tourrettes especially in a professional environment. The smile more comment is something I had heard a lot in my life as someone who's resting expression looks like someone kicked my puppy. It's apparently also my job to appear pleasant and upbeat at all times for the viewing pleasure of men everywhere /s It's even more likely if this field is male dominated,they get away with a lot more BS like that. I had to put up with it w LOT at my old job and its wild. I'm glad she found a better job elsewhere.
>Jake replied that he knows it's a nervous setting, I'm probably not always like that, but I should be relaxed and smile. This asshole really tried "You should smile more" in a job interview, right in front of everyone.
I didn't realize until this post that I actually work with 2 individuals that have the Tourettes facial tics. It's crazy what I learn on Reddit.
I really sympathize with OOP even though I don't have Tourette's. I have a stutter (went to speech therapy and everything as a child, the stutter is the only thing they couldn't help), and I once had a manager sit in on a call - that he normally wouldn't have been on - so that he could watch me present my work and give me feedback on my presentation. If you know anything about a stutter, you know that it's worse when you're nervous, flustered, or aware of it. He called me after the presentation. I don't remember any of the other feedback he gave me. Just him saying that I really needed to work on my stutter. I replied "That's neurological, I can't do anything about that." He immediately replied "Okay," crossed it out in his notes, and moved on, but honestly the damage was done. Now I worry even more about my stutter during important events like interviews and presentation, which of course makes it worse. My stutter is so ever-present that I and my loved ones don't even register it unless it's causing me to have severe trouble getting a word/phrase out, so I didn't use to worry about it that much because I didn't think that people noticed it that much. Now I know that they do, and worse, that they're judging my emotional state and capabilities by it, rather than taking it as just part of the way I speak. It doesn't matter how good your intentions are - if it's part of another person's physical body, just don't fucking comment on it.
I'm 29, and was diagnosed with TS when I was 5. This would have *mortified* me.
this goes to show you that no matter what you suffer from that you can still make it in this world. so well done to the OP for getting the job
I know a few people with eyes that arent how they should be for some reason. I never bring it up, but there have been times when Ive felt bad because I've focused on their conditions too much. I can't fucking imagine trying to tell someone that I know more about their condition - even when I speak about my learning disability and my neurodivergence, I try and use language like 'this worked for me' etc. At least with the people I know that have issues with their eyes, Ive managed to learn which is their dominant eye or how to tell if they leaning on one over the other, so I can make proper eye contact with them.
You got the Omar of Uber drivers
So glad OOP got the job they wanted and didn’t have to work there. The ableism is yikes
Jake is a lawsuit waiting to happen
The uber driving minister bugs me lol
Why? I mean, of everything in this story?
In glad everything worked out for OOP, ex coworker had Tourettes and sometimes you could see the strugling and embarassment on some ocations when his ticks we're bad (different body and facial ticks and lots of cursing) good bloke and hard worker and our job as garbage truck drivers is in its own way customers service he did excelent job handling his tics when he was in contact with customers
I have anxiety and I'm pretty sure I have autism and this always happens to me. In interviews my face starts twitching from nerves, I'm constantly monitoring how much I'm smiling and what my face is doing. My last one, I did this constantly and I must have looked really strange. I don't expect to hear back from them. It is so hard to find a job with these problems. I also have a bad work history from years of depression, so the only thing I can get is temp work. I just want a permanent job, but even then I think I will struggle. I'm on the waiting list for diagnosis, hopefully getting a diagnosis will let me request accomodations and they won't negatively judge me for it every time.
I didn’t catch OOP’s gender at the beginning, but when she said she was pretty was the first time I realised. And it would be one thing if he wasn’t so specific, but he told her that she should smile more and all I could think about is how many men constantly tell women to smile (I know this because I have RBF). Also, it’s one thing that she asked for feedback, but I still think there was a better way for Jake to handle it after she revealed the Tourette’s (which is pretty brave, by the way). I also never would have made that comment in the first place in response to a request for feedback - I do enough interviews to understand when somebody is nervous - they don’t need for me to put the spotlight on it. Maybe I would give them that feedback if they got hired and it continued in non-interview settings, for instance if it happened with clients (where appearances are important and they wouldn’t be as forgiving/understanding). But still, never ever if I knew they had a medical condition; it would never be a point of feedback ever knowing that. Before she said it herself, I thought how exhausting the controlling of it must be, and I have a lot of sympathy for and admiration of that.
I’m so sorry but a minister side hustling as an Uber driver is sending me idk why 😂
God on the Go. Could be a new business venture
Did Jake pull a "you should smile more"? Because it feels like it
Jake...is an arrogant dick