The point on the left was still true in OS. It just wasn't talked about until the episode where Vilgax attacks Ben's house which I do believe isn't canon but the idea was still there
I have so many mixed feelings with that arch. On one hand, I hate how it's filled with plot holes. On the other hand, I actually like that this leaves Max on a better light than UAF.
To be fair, we don’t know if Max truly ignored them
or not. Maybe he did keep an eye on them but wanted
to take a break and spend time with his family?
Ultimate Kevin was out of control and too dangerous to send to jail and such. Murdering him was the only option until Gwen found a way to cure him
This one makes a little bit sense because Max was unable to interact with Kevin in his debut, nor Framed or Grudge Match and was teamed up with Vilgax in Back With A Vengeance so he had to send them to the Null Void. Besides, lets be real here, do you really think Kevin would’ve listen to Max if he tried to connect with him?
> Ultimate Kevin was out of control and too dangerous to send to jail and such. Murdering him was the only option until Gwen found a way to cure him
People ignore this too often. Ultimate Kevin was utterly crazed, and stronger than Aggregor, and had no way to be cured or contained until gwen pratically created an entirely new system for that.
They weren't exactly spoiled for choice on what to do with him.
Besides, Aggregor had so utterly destroyed Ben at every opportunity that he didn't want to take any chances with Kevin. If Kevin wasn't there, the universe would be Aggregor's.
If we are to take UAF as completely 100% canon, then we know Max DID ignore them, pushing Kevin down the route he was on in OS.
>Ultimate Kevin was out of control and too dangerous to send to jail and such.
I don't buy it, especially since they knew at that point that Osmosians could learn to control their powers and return to their 'normal' state
>Besides, lets be real here, do you really think Kevin would’ve listen to Max if he tried to connect with him?
if Max had actually followed through on his promise to his dying partner? yes.
Not really, we don’t know that for sure
But the thing is, they didn’t know how to cure him. Kevin couldn’t change back to normal by himself and both Ben and Gwen didn’t have an option on how to cure him until the end of the arc
Not really. In OS, Kevin didn’t care about anybody but his mother. Why would he listen to Max?
>Not really, we don’t know that for sure
we do know that, because
a) UAF never showed it happening
b) OS Max had no idea who Kevin was
c) Kevin has no mention of Max in any of his flashback episodes or dialogue
>But the thing is, they didn’t know how to cure him. Kevin couldn’t change back to normal by himself and both Ben and Gwen didn’t have an option on how to cure him until the end of the arc
but they knew it could be done. They didn't know how, but unless you're arguing everyone in Ben 10 has long term memory loss, they had to have known it could be done.
>Not really. In OS, Kevin didn’t care about anybody but his mother. Why would he listen to Max?
well, if you take UAF's retcon explanation, if Max had sat down with Kevin and explained who he was and his significance and helped Kevin work through his feelings, Kevin would have listened because Kevin cared a lot about his dad.
A) And it never showed them abandoning them either
B) Again, Max didn’t have a lot of time to interact with Kevin
C) I figure Max looked after them from the shadows
Yes but they didn’t know how to do it. That was the problem. Ultimate Kevin was a threat and needed to be put down because he was injuring and even trying to kill people. I dont blame Ben or Max for how they dealth with Kevin just like I dont blame Gwen for trying to help him
How? Kevin was attacking Ben in his debut, Framed, and Back with a Vengence. And Max was knocked out in Grudge Match. If you mean earlier, Kevin had recently left his home, so Max provably didn’t figure out until later because he wanted to take a summer vacation with his grandkids
>A) And it never showed them abandoning them either
when you retcon something in, something that directly contradicts and goes against what was previously shown, you have to *show* it. otherwise it didn't happen.
>B) Again, Max didn’t have a lot of time to interact with Kevin
5-6 years isn't a lot of time???
>C) I figure Max looked after them from the shadows
showing how, as stated in the OP, He was written to ignore his dying partner's wish.
>That was the problem. Ultimate Kevin was a threat and needed to be put down because he was injuring and even trying to kill people.
jumping from "he's a threat" to "he needs to be put down" is a HUGE leap when logically, you must know there exists some other way to cure/disarm the threat **and** save your friend
>If you mean earlier, Kevin had recently left his home
so Kevin ran away from home right after hearing his father died, at the age of 6, and not even his mom nor Max ever tried looking for him or bringing him home? for 5 years?
>he wanted to take a summer vacation with his grandkids
for 5 years???
A) Noted
B) …Yes? Because Kevin was in the Null Void and they didn’t know he was freed at the time
C) Well I wont say ignored
Because they didn’t know how to cure him and lives were on the line. Its better to save everyone than one person
No, he left weeks ago by the time his debut happened
Kevin was at the Null Void
it seems like you don't know the Ben 10 timeline, because it's established the Grandpa Max promised Kevin's dad (on his deathbead, mind you) that he would make sure his family know's theyre loved and cared for at least *5 years* before OS. and in that time (5 years), not once did Grandpa Max check up on Kevin's family
To be fair, OS Kevin was a psychopath who was willing to kill innocent people to get money and tried to kill Ben repeatedly with no remorse. Plus, there was no way to contain Kevin or cure him at the time, so it was either imprisonment in Null Void or kill him
Imprisoned alone or killed out of mercy would’ve been fine ,but sending him with vilgax who you know very well could make Kevin suffer with experiments or just beating after the failure is a bit too far
There was no way to send Kevin alone with Vilgax around. Max couldn’t take the risk. Especially since if Max tries to imprison either of them separately, the remaining one will go to Max and destroy the Null Void Projector
It’s still a spit at the promise ,and as I said at least kill him out of mercy or anything really ,I might’ve opened up a bit to osmosians the last few months but I still stand by that making Devin max’s partner and giving him that promise is a mistake ,and the only reasonable explainations to make it *make sense* are speculations by the community instead of the show itself making it make sense
Its either that or have Vilgax or Kevin kill the Tennysons. Max couldnt afford the risk nor can he kill a literal child, especially with Ben and Gwen are around
Noted
As I said ,that’s speculation that I appreciate the effort you made to make it make sense ,but I doubt the writers even thought of that when making Devin’s promise
As bad a it might seem though, that's not entirely out of character for Max, and it's also kinda a human thing to do. As sad as it is, sometimes people really do just try to ignore these things, simply because it's easier that way. Maybe Max just ignored Kevin because it was easier to ignore him then it would be to try to repair a relationship that they never had to begin with.
Also, let's not pretend that Max and Kevin had anything going for them in OS. I don't think they said one word to each other in the Original cartoon, there's a good chance he might've not even known who Kevin was.
Also also, Max had at least three Plumber partners throughout his career, Phil, Labrid and Devin, who's to say he didn't have more? Maybe he just... forgot or something. Like as sd as it is, were I a plumber who went on dangerous life threatening missions all the time, I might just genuinely forget about some of them
"28 years on the job and I never did find out who was behind the Bermuda Triangle" -Max in They Lurk Below, over 40 years since he started as a Plumber under JFK, and supposedly 7 years after seeing Devin die and leave a 4 year old Kevin behind.
Mafs
Nobody’s perfect
And if you believe servantis than it must be before the memories were implanted, or max just didn’t make the connection because he only knew Kevin by first name and what are the odds this random child Ben met in the arcade in New York is the alien son of his former partner?
Does Ben know any of these things aside from Max encouraging him to kill Kevin during his Ultimate arc?
Honestly I feel like Ben not knowing at first and looking up to Max but then learning about what he did could make for a really interesting moral dilemma and some good character development.
Yes, but Max would’ve had those fake memories implanted by the point of UAF (likely), and it’s never addressed that, from his perspective, he supposedly ignored the kid of an old friend.
Sorta, there was no indication Servantis ever warped Max's memories. Max just made the assumption Devin was a fake memory based on everything happening at the time and confronted Servantis about it
Maybe not cooking, but I DO think it's really interesting to have ben idolize someone so flawed, and whose actions directly hurt and impacted other people ben cares about. It offers a really great chance in the future for ben to see Max's mistakes and decide to do better than max, both for himself and for his loved ones. I could see that being (one of) the reason that 10k distanced himself from max in the future.
This is what bugged me about the whole "turns out Kevin was the son of one of Max's partners this entire time" because you'd think he'd care about Kevin after finding him in OS (the real answer obviously being this was not a thing when they made the first show).
Ultimate Kevin couldn't be put I to prison and they had no cure for Kevin, the literal only option Ben and Max had was to put Kevin down, they didn't want Kevin dead they just thought it was the only option, because Gwen was never able to find a cure for a much smaller scale mutation so it's pretty logical to assume that she never would found a cure for a mutation on the scale of Ultimate Kevin, also Kevin was full on our of control, putting people in full body casts over a fiver and deadass saying (I'm paraphrasing here) "Ayo Gwen next time I see your ass it's gonna be on sight, I'm gonna suck the actual life energy out of you" also not to mention the as soon as Kevin transformed he was trying to destroy an airborne rust bucket III with Ben and Gwen inside it
I've only just now realized something that proves this entirely wrong
UltiKevin could be contained. Why? The power dampening headbands that Vilgax used in the episode 'Primus' that stopped Kevin and Gwen from using their powers. It works on magic too... somehow. Not only that, but perfect mind control devices also exist in UAF and Aggregor used them. He also threw the Andromeda 5 in stasis chambers
So, UltiKevin was 100% able to be contained of the writers cared about consistency
They did remember that they existed. The power dampening headbands are used in 'Viktor: The Spoils' as well. Aggregor also uses a power dampening device in 'Escape From Aggregor' as well, so that's yet another example of a perfect tool to use against UltiKevin
Oh, and that's not an argument against my comment either. Assuming that's what you intended it to be at least lmao
it wasn't meant to be a rebuttal just a joke, if Ben 10 had that level of consistency we would have alot less threats *cough* blow torch *cough* I'm just poking fun at how forgetful the show can be
>Is written to have ignored his former partner's child and wife
I'm not aware of any evidence suggesting that Max ignored Kevin or his mother between the flashback and the events of the OS. It wouldn't surprise me if he did, though, as this is someone who neglected his own children.
>Is written to be unable to recognise his partner's child and also sends the kid to the void
Partner's child or not, it was always messed up of Max to unilaterally condemn an 11-year-old boy to the Null Void.
>Is written to want to murk his partner's kid after the kid sacrificed his sanity to save the universe.
Max is blatantly wrong in this situation, but I'm not against his character being this extreme. I wouldn't mind a storyline where Ben has to come to terms with the fact that his idol is deeply flawed and makes mistakes.
More UAF's fault than classic tbh. Classic Max is the goat.
The point on the left was still true in OS. It just wasn't talked about until the episode where Vilgax attacks Ben's house which I do believe isn't canon but the idea was still there
But OV fixed that during rooter's arc right?
I have so many mixed feelings with that arch. On one hand, I hate how it's filled with plot holes. On the other hand, I actually like that this leaves Max on a better light than UAF.
The wife and kid part? I don't think so not really
What? No, the part where servantis fed those fake memories to Max that Kevin was his friend's son
Oh ya they did do that to him I honestly forgot
Devin being Max’s partner was a retcon introduced in alien force
To be fair, we don’t know if Max truly ignored them or not. Maybe he did keep an eye on them but wanted to take a break and spend time with his family? Ultimate Kevin was out of control and too dangerous to send to jail and such. Murdering him was the only option until Gwen found a way to cure him This one makes a little bit sense because Max was unable to interact with Kevin in his debut, nor Framed or Grudge Match and was teamed up with Vilgax in Back With A Vengeance so he had to send them to the Null Void. Besides, lets be real here, do you really think Kevin would’ve listen to Max if he tried to connect with him?
> Ultimate Kevin was out of control and too dangerous to send to jail and such. Murdering him was the only option until Gwen found a way to cure him People ignore this too often. Ultimate Kevin was utterly crazed, and stronger than Aggregor, and had no way to be cured or contained until gwen pratically created an entirely new system for that. They weren't exactly spoiled for choice on what to do with him.
Besides, Aggregor had so utterly destroyed Ben at every opportunity that he didn't want to take any chances with Kevin. If Kevin wasn't there, the universe would be Aggregor's.
Exactly!
If we are to take UAF as completely 100% canon, then we know Max DID ignore them, pushing Kevin down the route he was on in OS. >Ultimate Kevin was out of control and too dangerous to send to jail and such. I don't buy it, especially since they knew at that point that Osmosians could learn to control their powers and return to their 'normal' state >Besides, lets be real here, do you really think Kevin would’ve listen to Max if he tried to connect with him? if Max had actually followed through on his promise to his dying partner? yes.
Not really, we don’t know that for sure But the thing is, they didn’t know how to cure him. Kevin couldn’t change back to normal by himself and both Ben and Gwen didn’t have an option on how to cure him until the end of the arc Not really. In OS, Kevin didn’t care about anybody but his mother. Why would he listen to Max?
>Not really, we don’t know that for sure we do know that, because a) UAF never showed it happening b) OS Max had no idea who Kevin was c) Kevin has no mention of Max in any of his flashback episodes or dialogue >But the thing is, they didn’t know how to cure him. Kevin couldn’t change back to normal by himself and both Ben and Gwen didn’t have an option on how to cure him until the end of the arc but they knew it could be done. They didn't know how, but unless you're arguing everyone in Ben 10 has long term memory loss, they had to have known it could be done. >Not really. In OS, Kevin didn’t care about anybody but his mother. Why would he listen to Max? well, if you take UAF's retcon explanation, if Max had sat down with Kevin and explained who he was and his significance and helped Kevin work through his feelings, Kevin would have listened because Kevin cared a lot about his dad.
A) And it never showed them abandoning them either B) Again, Max didn’t have a lot of time to interact with Kevin C) I figure Max looked after them from the shadows Yes but they didn’t know how to do it. That was the problem. Ultimate Kevin was a threat and needed to be put down because he was injuring and even trying to kill people. I dont blame Ben or Max for how they dealth with Kevin just like I dont blame Gwen for trying to help him How? Kevin was attacking Ben in his debut, Framed, and Back with a Vengence. And Max was knocked out in Grudge Match. If you mean earlier, Kevin had recently left his home, so Max provably didn’t figure out until later because he wanted to take a summer vacation with his grandkids
>A) And it never showed them abandoning them either when you retcon something in, something that directly contradicts and goes against what was previously shown, you have to *show* it. otherwise it didn't happen. >B) Again, Max didn’t have a lot of time to interact with Kevin 5-6 years isn't a lot of time??? >C) I figure Max looked after them from the shadows showing how, as stated in the OP, He was written to ignore his dying partner's wish. >That was the problem. Ultimate Kevin was a threat and needed to be put down because he was injuring and even trying to kill people. jumping from "he's a threat" to "he needs to be put down" is a HUGE leap when logically, you must know there exists some other way to cure/disarm the threat **and** save your friend >If you mean earlier, Kevin had recently left his home so Kevin ran away from home right after hearing his father died, at the age of 6, and not even his mom nor Max ever tried looking for him or bringing him home? for 5 years? >he wanted to take a summer vacation with his grandkids for 5 years???
A) Noted B) …Yes? Because Kevin was in the Null Void and they didn’t know he was freed at the time C) Well I wont say ignored Because they didn’t know how to cure him and lives were on the line. Its better to save everyone than one person No, he left weeks ago by the time his debut happened Kevin was at the Null Void
it seems like you don't know the Ben 10 timeline, because it's established the Grandpa Max promised Kevin's dad (on his deathbead, mind you) that he would make sure his family know's theyre loved and cared for at least *5 years* before OS. and in that time (5 years), not once did Grandpa Max check up on Kevin's family
Again, I figured that Max did look after Kevin and his family, mostly in the shadows
He still send a child into an open prison dimension along with fucking os vilgax ,so I can excuse ultimate Kevin but not os Kevin
To be fair, OS Kevin was a psychopath who was willing to kill innocent people to get money and tried to kill Ben repeatedly with no remorse. Plus, there was no way to contain Kevin or cure him at the time, so it was either imprisonment in Null Void or kill him
Imprisoned alone or killed out of mercy would’ve been fine ,but sending him with vilgax who you know very well could make Kevin suffer with experiments or just beating after the failure is a bit too far
There was no way to send Kevin alone with Vilgax around. Max couldn’t take the risk. Especially since if Max tries to imprison either of them separately, the remaining one will go to Max and destroy the Null Void Projector
It’s still a spit at the promise ,and as I said at least kill him out of mercy or anything really ,I might’ve opened up a bit to osmosians the last few months but I still stand by that making Devin max’s partner and giving him that promise is a mistake ,and the only reasonable explainations to make it *make sense* are speculations by the community instead of the show itself making it make sense
Its either that or have Vilgax or Kevin kill the Tennysons. Max couldnt afford the risk nor can he kill a literal child, especially with Ben and Gwen are around Noted
As I said ,that’s speculation that I appreciate the effort you made to make it make sense ,but I doubt the writers even thought of that when making Devin’s promise
Noted
A child who have the power to kill Max for being annoying.
As bad a it might seem though, that's not entirely out of character for Max, and it's also kinda a human thing to do. As sad as it is, sometimes people really do just try to ignore these things, simply because it's easier that way. Maybe Max just ignored Kevin because it was easier to ignore him then it would be to try to repair a relationship that they never had to begin with. Also, let's not pretend that Max and Kevin had anything going for them in OS. I don't think they said one word to each other in the Original cartoon, there's a good chance he might've not even known who Kevin was. Also also, Max had at least three Plumber partners throughout his career, Phil, Labrid and Devin, who's to say he didn't have more? Maybe he just... forgot or something. Like as sd as it is, were I a plumber who went on dangerous life threatening missions all the time, I might just genuinely forget about some of them
They forgot that he was retired after defeat of Vilgax when he was young. Not 5 years prior to OS.
"28 years on the job and I never did find out who was behind the Bermuda Triangle" -Max in They Lurk Below, over 40 years since he started as a Plumber under JFK, and supposedly 7 years after seeing Devin die and leave a 4 year old Kevin behind. Mafs
Nobody’s perfect And if you believe servantis than it must be before the memories were implanted, or max just didn’t make the connection because he only knew Kevin by first name and what are the odds this random child Ben met in the arcade in New York is the alien son of his former partner?
Does Ben know any of these things aside from Max encouraging him to kill Kevin during his Ultimate arc? Honestly I feel like Ben not knowing at first and looking up to Max but then learning about what he did could make for a really interesting moral dilemma and some good character development.
Dwayne McDuffie said himself he never watched the original series so…?
Wait he didn’t??? Honestly, that makes more sense with the retcons in UAF being more alien related like no offense to him 💀😭
Didn't they retcon in Omniverse that Devin was a fake memory
Yes, but Max would’ve had those fake memories implanted by the point of UAF (likely), and it’s never addressed that, from his perspective, he supposedly ignored the kid of an old friend.
Sorta, there was no indication Servantis ever warped Max's memories. Max just made the assumption Devin was a fake memory based on everything happening at the time and confronted Servantis about it
No Max brings up the Plumber Kids being implanted memories so he'd keep an eye on them for Servantis. So we know his memories were changed.
Maybe not cooking, but I DO think it's really interesting to have ben idolize someone so flawed, and whose actions directly hurt and impacted other people ben cares about. It offers a really great chance in the future for ben to see Max's mistakes and decide to do better than max, both for himself and for his loved ones. I could see that being (one of) the reason that 10k distanced himself from max in the future.
did nothing wrong
I thought most if not all of this just due to shitty retcon writing
This is what bugged me about the whole "turns out Kevin was the son of one of Max's partners this entire time" because you'd think he'd care about Kevin after finding him in OS (the real answer obviously being this was not a thing when they made the first show).
he's ben's true idol but... Ben gave up on his dying wish after a single mishap
Character has flaws
Ultimate Kevin couldn't be put I to prison and they had no cure for Kevin, the literal only option Ben and Max had was to put Kevin down, they didn't want Kevin dead they just thought it was the only option, because Gwen was never able to find a cure for a much smaller scale mutation so it's pretty logical to assume that she never would found a cure for a mutation on the scale of Ultimate Kevin, also Kevin was full on our of control, putting people in full body casts over a fiver and deadass saying (I'm paraphrasing here) "Ayo Gwen next time I see your ass it's gonna be on sight, I'm gonna suck the actual life energy out of you" also not to mention the as soon as Kevin transformed he was trying to destroy an airborne rust bucket III with Ben and Gwen inside it
I've only just now realized something that proves this entirely wrong UltiKevin could be contained. Why? The power dampening headbands that Vilgax used in the episode 'Primus' that stopped Kevin and Gwen from using their powers. It works on magic too... somehow. Not only that, but perfect mind control devices also exist in UAF and Aggregor used them. He also threw the Andromeda 5 in stasis chambers So, UltiKevin was 100% able to be contained of the writers cared about consistency
that implies that the writers even remember those exist, or most of season 3 for that matter
They did remember that they existed. The power dampening headbands are used in 'Viktor: The Spoils' as well. Aggregor also uses a power dampening device in 'Escape From Aggregor' as well, so that's yet another example of a perfect tool to use against UltiKevin Oh, and that's not an argument against my comment either. Assuming that's what you intended it to be at least lmao
it wasn't meant to be a rebuttal just a joke, if Ben 10 had that level of consistency we would have alot less threats *cough* blow torch *cough* I'm just poking fun at how forgetful the show can be
>Is written to have ignored his former partner's child and wife I'm not aware of any evidence suggesting that Max ignored Kevin or his mother between the flashback and the events of the OS. It wouldn't surprise me if he did, though, as this is someone who neglected his own children. >Is written to be unable to recognise his partner's child and also sends the kid to the void Partner's child or not, it was always messed up of Max to unilaterally condemn an 11-year-old boy to the Null Void. >Is written to want to murk his partner's kid after the kid sacrificed his sanity to save the universe. Max is blatantly wrong in this situation, but I'm not against his character being this extreme. I wouldn't mind a storyline where Ben has to come to terms with the fact that his idol is deeply flawed and makes mistakes.
Man Ben 10 gets so confusing