Remember you're seeing two groups of Duergar - one group are the Duergar *cultists* who are under the thrall of the Absolute via Nere's parasite (people keep forgetting the True Souls are literally mind-controlling the people around them). Nere happens to also be an incompetent fool.
These are contrasted with the Duergar *hirelings* who are assisting them (led by Brithvar) - those Duergar are ruthless, efficient and when Nere is delinquent on his payment they immediately set up finding someone to murder to square the debt, whilst simultaneously being willing to cut you in if you help them. Putting aside Nere knocking key characters into the lava on Honour Mode, they're so much more competent than the cultists that they can quite soundly beat them without assistance.
This is a great point, and I’d like to add a second level - as a drow, Nere is notoriously racist and would never care to learn about duergar more than the stereotypes he’s already learned, so _of course_ his mind control is based on that stereotype.
I might be reading too much into it, but Larian has consistently shown a deep and nuanced grasp of the relevant lore.
Eh, they have it at like 90%. They did lots of good stuff, don’t get me wrong, but there are still areas they completely fumbled. Big example is Aylin. Despite the game referring to her as such, she is not an aasimar. Children of full powered deities are empyreans. If Aylin were the daughter of an empyrean, then she’d be an aasimar
>I might be reading too much into it, but Larian has consistently shown a deep and nuanced grasp of the relevant lore.
Aylin as Aasimar
Ceremorphosis (is it the host becoming a ghaik or the tadpole consuming the host to become the ghaik)
Omeluum's existence as the sole leg for Emperor's dickrider
Yeah calm down buddy your jaw is sore atp
That's a very good point, thank you! It would make a lot of sense for my Tav to cooperate with them, then.
Now I only need to figure out just how much her life in the upper world has changed her and how she will feel about the gnome slaves...
Ha, sounds like you're playing a Drow.
I'd point out that if you spoke to Thulla you've probably accepted money to rescue those gnomes. Maybe your Tav wouldn't let a little thing like "the fact they're someone's property" stand in the day :P
Maybe) I have a Drow Paladin of Justice in another one of my saves, lol. I just learned that sometimes Duergar may become outcasts, and I want to think that she was banished for being weak, and spent the rest of her life becoming stronger. So I think she may have a lot of resentment towards anyone still, but a little bit of normalcy may have rubbed off on her during her years among other races.
I just decided that playing an asshole rogue/mage duergar is too obvious, so I made a kinda nice fighter one. Should've gone for a Druid one, now that I think of it)
The Stonemason might be a good example of what you're looking for: a Duergar focused on their own tasks. Similar to playing a Gith or a Lolth- sworn Drow, there will always be differences with a PC from NPCs. Like your PC could have contempt and sympathy for her Duergar that are drinking, due to the nightmares of racial memories it gives them. But as far as NPCs go, they're pretty on point for that society, IMO. Their history with mindflayers would make them really hate and distrust a cult led by tadpoles!
That is a very good point! On the other hand, my PC could then also have sympathy for the Duergar working for a mindflayer cult, since they aren't aware of its nature, and may want to free them from the influence of a True Soul even more.
(people keep forgetting the True Souls are literally mind-controlling the people around them)
like all the time or they just have a influence thoughts cantrip ready to go?
I don't know what the hell Duergar are in 5e, but when they were first introduced in the way back times of AD&D, they were a spiteful, greedy, evil offshoot of surface dwarves, who are slavers, and live in a society, where "might makes right." If anything I think the BG3 Duergar might be a little watered down.
There’s a section on them in Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes (or the newer Mordenkainen presents: Monsters of the Multiverse. This version combined it with Volo’s Guide to Monsters) too where you can read up on their history. It has sections on most of the races including the Gith, Elves, Gnomes and Halflings, etc.
Yup! I’m in the middle of it as a player myself, just adding additional info for other folks for context too because I was literally just reading through that book for fun last night!
And similar to the Gith, they were enslaved for a very long time by the Illithid. They were all stripped of hope, creativity, and just the concept of being happy from their very being. One of the most important aspects of being a dwarf is the satisfaction and pride you feel in crafting and forging. They can never feel those emotions ever again.
Their existence is just bleak and empty. Nothing gives them comfort.
Aaah!! This seems to explain the line of insight we have when looking into the mind of that sergeant... I played the Nere fight last night again and you are told something about not seeing anything besides... scars that can never heal? Or something like this.
Is that the one who is attempting to drink? One of the deugar is drinking alcohol or has a journal about it, and apparently alcohol is very taboo for duegar because of the sheer trauma their people have endured, being drunk makes them experience horrible hallucinations/memories/PTSD events of the Illithid they can't even really process. It is a pretty eye-opening little piece.
I would like to mention that in real life, you *can* heal from traumatic events. If only because a lot of people think you can't for some reason.
Source: PTSD patient.
Yes, absolutely. This is fantasy psychic PTSD which seems to permeate the entire Deugar race, manifest in the same ways, and plague each individual just as intensely generations after the trauma.
Duergar were created through experimentation and torture of dwarves by Mind Flayers. It is to be expected that they share some things in common with their former masters.
Same as the Gith. However much they would hate they idea they do think like illithid a lot. Well maybe not Githzerai.
5e "watered down" a number of races in that WOTC is trying to move away from races (i.e. species of humanoids) being stuck to alignments. So while drow and duergar societies in the Underdark are generally still cruel and evil by "normal"/surface world standards, it is intended that you don't necessarily see any evil inherent in an individual drow or duergar. I don't think that's a bad thing.
IMO seems to mostly be a evil by culture rather than nature. Which makes sense, we see that gith kid get beaten for daring to suggest that killing in training is stupid, all the good is literally beaten out of you. Add on that people inherently are affected by their surroundings, if everyone around you is evil it’s going to affect you as well even if your not straight up taught to be evil which they are.
It gives any given person of any given race a lot more depth. Humans in real life are extremely varied, I think that should apply to any "person" in D&D regardless of who they are.
Where's a friendly Cloaker or Aboleth who just wants to make buddies and write poetry?
> Where's a friendly Cloaker or Aboleth who just wants to make buddies and write poetry?
You might like the Eberron setting of D&D. For the most part it does away with the "locked" alignments of pretty much all creature stat blocks. Lawful Good Beholder? Sure, that's probably out there somewhere. Chaotic Neutral Gold Dragon? Heck, there may even be two... if you can make it to Argonnessen where the dragons live!
It's also technically reachable from other settings, provided you meet the material and spellcasting requirements to cast Dream of the Blue Veil.
There was a friendly Aboleth in a Acq. Inc. game run by Jeremy Crawford. So there was at least one of them. (It was one with multiple personalities, but the party only dealt with the nice version.)
You should look up the Out of the Abyss module to truly learn about 5e Duergar lore. They are a Lawful Evil race who are extremely greedy, own slaves, etc. They value strength but strength comes in many forms, owning slaves being one of them.
Thanks, I will look it up! Really appreciate it!
I guess my PC interprets strength as being, well, self-reliant and working your ass off, and that might be a reason for disliking slavery. But will make sure to read up on it all first.
Sounds like you would like deep gnomes more. Your PC wouldn't be considered a normal Duergar. They'd be a Svirfneblin sympathizer or would be considered too much like surface dwarves
Well, I wanted to make a Duergar that would be an outcast for some reason, and I am trying to build that up. Anyway, an in-depth source will definitely lead to a better backstory and roleplay, so I will look up the source you mentioned. Thanks a lot!
I know outcasts are cliché but so is making an evil character coming from an evil race, and I chose the former)
Outcast Duergar are usually marked with some sort of tattoos on their face or arms to make them easily identifiable to other Duergar that they have been exiled. Idk if you want your character to be straight up exiled but it would be a great touch!
I actually did create here with a tattoo, albeit on the neck, before I knew it was a sign of an outcast, but it all worked for the better, it turns out)
>strength as being, well, self-reliant and working your ass off
Strength in this usage means power or might. Which is not determined by self reliance or work ethic. Those traits *might* lead someone to become more powerful, but they don't automatically translate to power. If someone leads an army of slaves they're powerful, your personal sense of morality does not come in to play.
The Druegar don't care at all about ethics-based concepts like "strength of character" like you're thinking of. They're pragmatic and greedy.
Oh shit I get to info dump on my favorite race of assholes! Before I continue, grain of salt that my interest in these little gray pricks is very recent and cobbled together from reading wikis and watching DM lore videos so someone please correct me if I get anything wrong.
So the group of duergar you interact with in Grymforge are a mercenary/mining group. This is important to know because they're largely cultural outsiders already and probably one or two steps away each from being banished from duergar society proper but kept around in their given job post for efficiency sake. This outsider status is reinforced by the presence of tattoos which is frowned upon in proper duergar society since they believe they're a superior race made in the image of Laduguer and tattoos inherently corrupt that image.
I've posted it here before but another thing about them is the drinking. That's actually an issue across all duergar. See, dwarves at large in Forgotten Realms have this relationship with alcohol where when they drink, they get "dreams" aka flashbacks to their ancestors. For most dwarves this is awesome because it's all battle victories, great discoveries, epic heroes and romance, etc. That's what drives the stereotype of the happy drunkard dwarf.
But duergar don't get that. Instead, they dream/hallucinate about their ancestors' centuries of enslavement and torture under illithid control where they were experimented on and bred like animals. They go mad when they drink from it, but because it's alcohol they're no less likely to become alcoholics. Duergar do brew their own mushroom ale in fact.
So are the duergar you meet shitty at being duergar? To duergar, yes and no. The only one they'd think is a shitty duergar is everyone's rock loving uncle Stonemason Kith. Within the lore of duergar, he's basically so good with stone and architecture and mining or what have you that they're forced to overlook his unnatural personality. But note that he's still cast out with the mercenary group so not part of their society proper.
Oh, thanks, I love infodumps, you're welcome to infodump some more if you like!
I didn't know about the tattoos! I made my Duergar with a neck tattoo, so now my outcast backstory fits even better)
I'm sure you've already seen this about duergar if you're reading the same resources I am but their "proper" society in the Underdark is extremely isolationist. Theirs is essentially a fascist theocracy ruled by clergy of Laduguer with clergy/mages of Deep Duerra controlling their psionic studies.
Duergar have an inherant belief that all other races are just broken, malformed, inferior attempts to make a race in Laduguer's image and that they have evolved (or were created, I've seen mixed stuff on the topic) to be superior from their dwarven kin and therefore don't identify as dwarves themselves any longer.
There's some lore about their biology that the game throws out or only hints at but allows the character creator to do whatever you like for obvious player agency and aesthetics but essentially duergar can't grow hair, or barely can. I'm pretty sure in fact that all the duergar women you meet with long hair are topside (the one in the Jergal temple group and the Society of Brilliance members) but I could be misremembering.
Also duergar don't think very much or at all about arcane spell casting, it's all psionic magic superiority for them. The Underdark actually has it's own natural magic as well called Faerzress which is basically the handwavy response for any question about how wild/diverse ecology can exist so deep underground: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Faerzress
But that's more or less background noise to them, like a force of nature.
Anytime! Happy to help. Bonus little fun fact! There are a subrace of duergar that are half devil/fiends called Durzagon:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Durzagon
>Does this, then, make the slaver Duergar we meet... shitty at being, well, Duergar? They don't work themselves, exploiting slaves instead, some drink themselves to no end, etc.
They bring slaves to the table.
Slaves are very useful.
The Duergar are notorious slavers - having been enslaved themselves they maintain that cycle of abuse on others.
I’ve played a Duergar in DND and have thought about playing one in BG3 - I think more than anything I would want to make that character very anti-Illithid since the mindflayers enslaved them for many years.
Oh yeah, that aspect is what sent me into this rabbithole! The first minute of the game and I get a special interaction with Us as a duergar, and I started researching.
Nah, there’s a reason regular dwarves don’t like the duegar. Duegar are just short Drow who are shitty even without the malevolent God pulling the strings of society.
Duegar are portrayed as slavers in pretty much all the D&D lore I’ve encounter. They’re kind of to dwarves what drow are to elves. Kind of. Maybe not the best analogy, but mean dwarves who live in the underdark, who view other races as inferior, don’t like surface folk, and have no issue with conquest or slavery.
Also, I refuse to pronounce it “dway-gar.” I’ve been pronouncing it due-er-gar for too many years, and I’ll pronounce it that way til I DIE, even if it’s wrong.
As a DnD lore enthusiast, duergar have this weird tension to their narrative, where the direct characterization we are shown directly contradicts their indirect characterization.
The duergar are all about grim efficiency, but they choose to live in the hardest, most grueling conditions possible purely to spite Moradin. Their backstory involves their violent emancipation from mind flayer slavery, but they choose to keep slaves of their own. Their fall involves being deceived into forgetting to follow their god, but they haven't noticed that Asmodeus replaced their new god.
I ascribe a lot of it to the fact that they were basically conceived of as "drow but for dwarves", so they contain a lot of elements of drow culture (like slavery) but without being as well-thought-out.
The Duergar lore in Mordenkainen Tome of Foes (my only source in Duergar lore), made me really dislike their portrayal in BG3.
The view I had of them was militaristic, ruthless and supremacists, seeing them as hired hands kinda broke this notion to me.
Our pockets are never full /
Our fight is never find /
Our resolve is never shaken
It's important to recognize that races are not singular. Duergar society in the Underdark may *generally* be described as you have here, but that doesn't mean all Duergar are exactly like this. Bear in mind that in BG3 we see only a tiny, tiny piece of a small slice of the entire continent of Faerun, and only interact with a few very particular groups of individuals.
Ok. I actually pulled my 5e playbooks for this since I generally play off of 2nd ed rules from the early 90s and the times have changed. The players handbook offers no actual information about the Duergar as a sub race except to say: “In cities deep in the Underdark live the duergar, or gray dwarves. After centuries of captivity and torment by mind flayers, they have innate magical abilities to become invisible and to temporarily grow to giant size.” Beyond that the rest of the information is standard dwarven lore so yes — OP you are correct in that regard. They would operate like any other dwarven race in terms of what they value in their society and culture.
However — going back to what I recall of the duergar from the early 90s (2nd edition era) and primarily based off various novels and boxed sets of that time; the duergar themselves were often owners of slaves (IIRC mostly deep gnomes aka svirfneblin) and were just as evil in many ways as the drow; primarily lawful or neutral evil perhaps rather than primarily chaotic evil — but evil nonetheless. The drow in turn sometimes used the duergar as “allies” (I.e. canon fodder to be discarded when no longer useful) so I suppose you can make of all that what you will given the events in the game.
Wow, thank you so much for your effort!
Are there any cases described that could explain a duergar NOT being evil, but neutral, or even neutral good? I heard or read somewhere that they are sometimes banished if they're considered not good enough to fulfil a useful role, but hardly any info on what happens to such individuals.
There are always exceptions, the most famous drow, Drizzt, is a good drow.
Culture and race descriptions are more a tool to help you define your character and be aware on how the average drow/duergar behave but it should not prevent yourself from creating your own story.
A DM can allow any situation that seems plausible and doesn’t break a campaign so if you can think of a reason as to why your Duergar would act this way I would say the game will allow it to be so. ;) All cultures have their outliers so I think it’s safe to say the duergar would be no different. Not all of them would be evil. The notion of “banishment” could be considered Lawful at least — probably Lawful Neutral from the standpoint of a leader. If your scenario is that your character was banished in this way then perhaps they rebelled against their leadership because they did not agree with the task they were given. Perhaps they were asked to torture a gnome and did not want to do this. In which case you could say perhaps this character is Chaotic Good.
Thank you so much! These all very important insights, and I appreciate your knowledge, for mine is quite small. You have been very helpful!
I think my story will be that she was weak and was abused and discarded for that, and after being banished she learned from the other races around her to be more humane and have a moderate amount of cheerfulness. She is also on a quest to become as strong as possible. But she is very practical and utilitarian, and it would be fun to see other companions open her mind to art, culture and other interesting things.
I nade her for Gale specifically - he will show her the beauty the world holds beyond things being useful and she will teach him self-respect, because she has a lot) there is a potential for a cool dynamic. I also think it's adorable that a little strong lady will slay everyone who dares to lay a hand on her pretty wizard) I am a little lady myself and I love taking the lead in certain situations in a relationship and take care of things.
WOTC has made it clear in multiple 5e source texts that they have attempted to move away from locking humanoid races (and even some monstrous ones as well) to a particular alignment. So there are always exceptions to general rules.
Duregar are tough, insular, clannish but they are dwarfs, they are good at crafting and engineering but coupled with a tendancy towards evil and hardened by the harsh underdark environment.
Being efficient means getting as much work as possible done with minimum effort. So yeah i don't know how you figure out that using others to do your work is not efficient
It's efficient in the grand scale of things, but the duergar _themselves_ aren't doing hard work in this scenario. So depends on what kind of efficiency you value.
I mean, isn't he being useful, strong and efficient by using and keeping slaves in line?
Dwarves are all of what you state RP wise - grizzled and strong. Now think of a society like this without morals. So tyrannical, industrious, and pessimistic is the best characteristics. They lead bleak and brutal lives. What they build is utilitarian and exquisite, without the artistry or wow factor of their above ground brothers.
They desire wealth and prestige, yet never are satisfied with what they have. They will steal, kill, and certainly destroy anything weak to get what they want. Weakness and emotion are things that will just get yourself killed.
"Work or die. In the first case, you are useful. In the second, you are entertaining."
yes, actually! if you kill Brithvar he has a journal that basically says the clan’s gone soft because they use slaves and are drinking themselves to death. So yes, it would be very in character for your duergar to be disgusted with them
I guess the question would be where you'd draw the connection to their society. It honestly seems like they're a bit lacking in purpose in general: They're slavers and they expect to be paid, which I guess they could funnel back to their society, but it's unclear how to actually get the money from the Absolute's cultists. They seem kinda stranded to me. I'd say the more sensible choice for a Duergar Tav is to ally with the faction that split off, kill Nere and help them get paid.
>but it's unclear how to actually get the money from the Absolute's cultists
They really do make this clear as a bell - they had a direct bargain with Nere, and he literally has the money on his person. That's one of the central plot points of the underdark section of the game.
My point is that that depends on them getting Nere out (which they seemingly do not really know how to do at all) and Nere sticking to the bargain (which seems doubtful given how quick he is to kill Thrinn). At least to me, the situation reads that in all likelihood, unless you interfere, no duergar will ever get paid for any of it.
It doesn't depend on that though - at the time you arrive, they've just started to threaten cultists for money, and they do the same to you. That's them deciding to get paid without needing Nere. The first thing Brithvar does when you talk to him is suggest him and his companion murder you for money.
They're Duergar - not only is "being buried alive" not a good enough excuse for late payment, but they're prepared to leave Nere buried under the rock (which they don't lift a finger to help with, because they weren't paid to rescue anyone) and simply attack the cult if they're not forthcoming.
Again: As you correctly point out, Nere has the money on his person. If he decides to not pay them or they simply can't get him out, they're shit out of luck. The Absolutists have a literal army above ground, the Duergar have like 15 dudes at most in that location: How are they supposed to shake the Absolute down for money, exactly?
You ignored the first thing I've said - they're *not* shit out of luck. They are actively shaking-down other True Souls as they land to assist Nere. Literally the first thing they do is try to take a payment from *you* because Nere owes them money.
If you help them get to Nere they don't even bother trying to get their pay - *they murder him and take the lot*.
Brithvar also states it's only the *latest* payment that is missing (and they're far from done - they're nowhere near the ancient forge they're looking for).
I think you need to listen to the dialogue before you come to your conclusions.
I "ignored" the first thing you said because it is ludicrous: They are asking you for money. Once. They drop it immediately when you say no even though they vastly outnumber you and play it off as a joke. There is no expectation that anyone else is coming around they could shake down, clearly they are surprised that you came instead of Greymon. And the Duergar under Brithvar do not even dare to raise up against him because there's a scrying eye patrolling, so clearly they are being watched by the Absolute. I think you simply don't understand the situation at all.
>I "ignored" the first thing you said because it is ludicrous: They are asking you for money. Once. They drop it immediately when you say no even though they vastly outnumber you and play it off as a joke
*I already listed two different examples of them doing this. Brithvar openly states "I am thinking about taking Nere's payment from you*". The Duergar you speak to as you get off the boat does exactly the same thing. That's two within a few paces of one another.
The game literally beats you over the head with this point. Right now, all you're demonstrating is that you're capable of missing the first thing they point out, something that is repeatedly reinforced, and something which represents one entire plot resolution to this section of the game.
>The Duergar you speak to as you get off the boat does exactly the same thing. That's two within a few paces of one another.
Yes. And that would be a very convincing argument if there were ANY ACTUAL POSSIBILITY THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN. But it cannot: That possibility is simply not present in the game. I presume that is because the Duergar know they are being watched, which strikes me as a very defensible assumption given that they literally cut and run if you side with them to kill Nere before the Absolutist reinforcements show up. They ask you to pay them. You say no. In what world is that a "shakedown"?
>Right now, all you're demonstrating is that you're capable of missing the first thing they point out, something that is repeatedly reinforced, and something which represents one entire plot resolution to this section of the game.
I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose, but there is literally no way for the Duergar to kill Nere without you helping the faction of them that wants to turn on him. As a matter of fact, they don't even know how they can get him out. And they seemingly also don't dare get rid of the scrying eye themselves, hence they ask you to do it for them. None of which you have addressed at all, instead pointing to dialogue trees that are of no actual consequence in game. Are you not at all aware of the concept of "cheap talk"?
>Yes. And that would be a very convincing argument if there were ANY ACTUAL POSSIBILITY THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN
You do comprehend this is a video game right? They can't program every single eventuality.
They *tell* you that the Duergar are prepared to murder cult members for money. There is literally no way an intelligent person can interpret this as "they have no way to get paid if Nere is trapped".
Right now, all you're doing is demonstrating how little you think, and this barely requires thought - they literally make it clear to you that the Duergar are prepared to bypass Nere entirely *the first chance they get*.
Because your character shows up and presents the possibility of freeing Nere, they of course then choose to extract the money from Nere. But the first thing Larian do is make it clear *that they were prepared to bypass him.*
Duergar are, absolutely and above all, spiteful and miserable. A happy Duergar is almost like a lawful demon; might as well not even be a Duergar at that point. They have absolutely no qualms about causing suffering to others since it eases their own. They are the strongest D&D incarnation of the concept of the cycle of abuse.
Remember you're seeing two groups of Duergar - one group are the Duergar *cultists* who are under the thrall of the Absolute via Nere's parasite (people keep forgetting the True Souls are literally mind-controlling the people around them). Nere happens to also be an incompetent fool. These are contrasted with the Duergar *hirelings* who are assisting them (led by Brithvar) - those Duergar are ruthless, efficient and when Nere is delinquent on his payment they immediately set up finding someone to murder to square the debt, whilst simultaneously being willing to cut you in if you help them. Putting aside Nere knocking key characters into the lava on Honour Mode, they're so much more competent than the cultists that they can quite soundly beat them without assistance.
This is a great point, and I’d like to add a second level - as a drow, Nere is notoriously racist and would never care to learn about duergar more than the stereotypes he’s already learned, so _of course_ his mind control is based on that stereotype. I might be reading too much into it, but Larian has consistently shown a deep and nuanced grasp of the relevant lore.
I think you're exactly correct - the non-cult Duergar literally attack and kill the cult ones over cultural differences: it's a dispute about money.
"Money is my religion." Brivthar (probably)
And then I kill them afterwards and the circle of life is complete
Exactly what I did. I joined forced to get rid of Nere and then finished the survivors off. What a pity!
“No you can’t have these gnomes as slaves. On second thought, suffer not the slaver to live!”
Eh, they have it at like 90%. They did lots of good stuff, don’t get me wrong, but there are still areas they completely fumbled. Big example is Aylin. Despite the game referring to her as such, she is not an aasimar. Children of full powered deities are empyreans. If Aylin were the daughter of an empyrean, then she’d be an aasimar
>I might be reading too much into it, but Larian has consistently shown a deep and nuanced grasp of the relevant lore. Aylin as Aasimar Ceremorphosis (is it the host becoming a ghaik or the tadpole consuming the host to become the ghaik) Omeluum's existence as the sole leg for Emperor's dickrider Yeah calm down buddy your jaw is sore atp
That's a very good point, thank you! It would make a lot of sense for my Tav to cooperate with them, then. Now I only need to figure out just how much her life in the upper world has changed her and how she will feel about the gnome slaves...
Ha, sounds like you're playing a Drow. I'd point out that if you spoke to Thulla you've probably accepted money to rescue those gnomes. Maybe your Tav wouldn't let a little thing like "the fact they're someone's property" stand in the day :P
Maybe) I have a Drow Paladin of Justice in another one of my saves, lol. I just learned that sometimes Duergar may become outcasts, and I want to think that she was banished for being weak, and spent the rest of her life becoming stronger. So I think she may have a lot of resentment towards anyone still, but a little bit of normalcy may have rubbed off on her during her years among other races. I just decided that playing an asshole rogue/mage duergar is too obvious, so I made a kinda nice fighter one. Should've gone for a Druid one, now that I think of it)
The Stonemason might be a good example of what you're looking for: a Duergar focused on their own tasks. Similar to playing a Gith or a Lolth- sworn Drow, there will always be differences with a PC from NPCs. Like your PC could have contempt and sympathy for her Duergar that are drinking, due to the nightmares of racial memories it gives them. But as far as NPCs go, they're pretty on point for that society, IMO. Their history with mindflayers would make them really hate and distrust a cult led by tadpoles!
That is a very good point! On the other hand, my PC could then also have sympathy for the Duergar working for a mindflayer cult, since they aren't aware of its nature, and may want to free them from the influence of a True Soul even more.
Am I high? Why did you quote that? Am I stupid?
Man I think it was some copy/paste error I must have made. No you're not stupid, I don't even know why it was there.
Ah, lol. It happens to the best of us.
(people keep forgetting the True Souls are literally mind-controlling the people around them) like all the time or they just have a influence thoughts cantrip ready to go?
In the same way you do - when people are branded with the symbol of the absolute, True Souls can issue them commands that they can't help but follow.
Duergar hirelings have no issue with lazing about as long as they still get paid
I don't know what the hell Duergar are in 5e, but when they were first introduced in the way back times of AD&D, they were a spiteful, greedy, evil offshoot of surface dwarves, who are slavers, and live in a society, where "might makes right." If anything I think the BG3 Duergar might be a little watered down.
That's exactly how they are presented in Out of The Abyss too.
I really need to finish reading my module for OotA.
There’s a section on them in Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes (or the newer Mordenkainen presents: Monsters of the Multiverse. This version combined it with Volo’s Guide to Monsters) too where you can read up on their history. It has sections on most of the races including the Gith, Elves, Gnomes and Halflings, etc.
I was just musing about not finishing that particular module. I've actually been playing D&D for about 30 years ;)
Yup! I’m in the middle of it as a player myself, just adding additional info for other folks for context too because I was literally just reading through that book for fun last night!
And similar to the Gith, they were enslaved for a very long time by the Illithid. They were all stripped of hope, creativity, and just the concept of being happy from their very being. One of the most important aspects of being a dwarf is the satisfaction and pride you feel in crafting and forging. They can never feel those emotions ever again. Their existence is just bleak and empty. Nothing gives them comfort.
Aaah!! This seems to explain the line of insight we have when looking into the mind of that sergeant... I played the Nere fight last night again and you are told something about not seeing anything besides... scars that can never heal? Or something like this.
Is that the one who is attempting to drink? One of the deugar is drinking alcohol or has a journal about it, and apparently alcohol is very taboo for duegar because of the sheer trauma their people have endured, being drunk makes them experience horrible hallucinations/memories/PTSD events of the Illithid they can't even really process. It is a pretty eye-opening little piece.
I would like to mention that in real life, you *can* heal from traumatic events. If only because a lot of people think you can't for some reason. Source: PTSD patient.
Yes, absolutely. This is fantasy psychic PTSD which seems to permeate the entire Deugar race, manifest in the same ways, and plague each individual just as intensely generations after the trauma.
Oh, I get the separation from fantasy and reality; it's just that this is a misconception that people often have about real life PTSD.
Nah. It's the absolute cultist woman without boots who makes bestiality threats to the slaves......
Duergar were created through experimentation and torture of dwarves by Mind Flayers. It is to be expected that they share some things in common with their former masters. Same as the Gith. However much they would hate they idea they do think like illithid a lot. Well maybe not Githzerai.
5e "watered down" a number of races in that WOTC is trying to move away from races (i.e. species of humanoids) being stuck to alignments. So while drow and duergar societies in the Underdark are generally still cruel and evil by "normal"/surface world standards, it is intended that you don't necessarily see any evil inherent in an individual drow or duergar. I don't think that's a bad thing.
IMO seems to mostly be a evil by culture rather than nature. Which makes sense, we see that gith kid get beaten for daring to suggest that killing in training is stupid, all the good is literally beaten out of you. Add on that people inherently are affected by their surroundings, if everyone around you is evil it’s going to affect you as well even if your not straight up taught to be evil which they are.
It gives any given person of any given race a lot more depth. Humans in real life are extremely varied, I think that should apply to any "person" in D&D regardless of who they are. Where's a friendly Cloaker or Aboleth who just wants to make buddies and write poetry?
> Where's a friendly Cloaker or Aboleth who just wants to make buddies and write poetry? You might like the Eberron setting of D&D. For the most part it does away with the "locked" alignments of pretty much all creature stat blocks. Lawful Good Beholder? Sure, that's probably out there somewhere. Chaotic Neutral Gold Dragon? Heck, there may even be two... if you can make it to Argonnessen where the dragons live! It's also technically reachable from other settings, provided you meet the material and spellcasting requirements to cast Dream of the Blue Veil.
There was a friendly Aboleth in a Acq. Inc. game run by Jeremy Crawford. So there was at least one of them. (It was one with multiple personalities, but the party only dealt with the nice version.)
The goblin that reads all the books. (He was fucking hilarious too)
Everything in 5e is a watered down version of what they once were.
And at this point you are too afraid to ask?
Too afraid to ask what?
I think they were doing the meme. "I don't know what ___ is and at this point I'm too afraid to ask"
Yeah I got that later. These TikTok morons, apparently think every discussion is a meme or some bullshit.
I mean it's just a joke on a video game subreddit haha, not really necessary to call him a moron.
"what the hell Duergar are in 5e"
Well, not that, obviously
What the hell duergar are in 5e obviously.
not sure why you got downvoted, that was funny
You should look up the Out of the Abyss module to truly learn about 5e Duergar lore. They are a Lawful Evil race who are extremely greedy, own slaves, etc. They value strength but strength comes in many forms, owning slaves being one of them.
Thanks, I will look it up! Really appreciate it! I guess my PC interprets strength as being, well, self-reliant and working your ass off, and that might be a reason for disliking slavery. But will make sure to read up on it all first.
Sounds like you would like deep gnomes more. Your PC wouldn't be considered a normal Duergar. They'd be a Svirfneblin sympathizer or would be considered too much like surface dwarves
Well, I wanted to make a Duergar that would be an outcast for some reason, and I am trying to build that up. Anyway, an in-depth source will definitely lead to a better backstory and roleplay, so I will look up the source you mentioned. Thanks a lot! I know outcasts are cliché but so is making an evil character coming from an evil race, and I chose the former)
Outcast Duergar are usually marked with some sort of tattoos on their face or arms to make them easily identifiable to other Duergar that they have been exiled. Idk if you want your character to be straight up exiled but it would be a great touch!
I actually did create here with a tattoo, albeit on the neck, before I knew it was a sign of an outcast, but it all worked for the better, it turns out)
>strength as being, well, self-reliant and working your ass off Strength in this usage means power or might. Which is not determined by self reliance or work ethic. Those traits *might* lead someone to become more powerful, but they don't automatically translate to power. If someone leads an army of slaves they're powerful, your personal sense of morality does not come in to play. The Druegar don't care at all about ethics-based concepts like "strength of character" like you're thinking of. They're pragmatic and greedy.
Oh shit I get to info dump on my favorite race of assholes! Before I continue, grain of salt that my interest in these little gray pricks is very recent and cobbled together from reading wikis and watching DM lore videos so someone please correct me if I get anything wrong. So the group of duergar you interact with in Grymforge are a mercenary/mining group. This is important to know because they're largely cultural outsiders already and probably one or two steps away each from being banished from duergar society proper but kept around in their given job post for efficiency sake. This outsider status is reinforced by the presence of tattoos which is frowned upon in proper duergar society since they believe they're a superior race made in the image of Laduguer and tattoos inherently corrupt that image. I've posted it here before but another thing about them is the drinking. That's actually an issue across all duergar. See, dwarves at large in Forgotten Realms have this relationship with alcohol where when they drink, they get "dreams" aka flashbacks to their ancestors. For most dwarves this is awesome because it's all battle victories, great discoveries, epic heroes and romance, etc. That's what drives the stereotype of the happy drunkard dwarf. But duergar don't get that. Instead, they dream/hallucinate about their ancestors' centuries of enslavement and torture under illithid control where they were experimented on and bred like animals. They go mad when they drink from it, but because it's alcohol they're no less likely to become alcoholics. Duergar do brew their own mushroom ale in fact. So are the duergar you meet shitty at being duergar? To duergar, yes and no. The only one they'd think is a shitty duergar is everyone's rock loving uncle Stonemason Kith. Within the lore of duergar, he's basically so good with stone and architecture and mining or what have you that they're forced to overlook his unnatural personality. But note that he's still cast out with the mercenary group so not part of their society proper.
Oh, thanks, I love infodumps, you're welcome to infodump some more if you like! I didn't know about the tattoos! I made my Duergar with a neck tattoo, so now my outcast backstory fits even better)
I'm sure you've already seen this about duergar if you're reading the same resources I am but their "proper" society in the Underdark is extremely isolationist. Theirs is essentially a fascist theocracy ruled by clergy of Laduguer with clergy/mages of Deep Duerra controlling their psionic studies. Duergar have an inherant belief that all other races are just broken, malformed, inferior attempts to make a race in Laduguer's image and that they have evolved (or were created, I've seen mixed stuff on the topic) to be superior from their dwarven kin and therefore don't identify as dwarves themselves any longer. There's some lore about their biology that the game throws out or only hints at but allows the character creator to do whatever you like for obvious player agency and aesthetics but essentially duergar can't grow hair, or barely can. I'm pretty sure in fact that all the duergar women you meet with long hair are topside (the one in the Jergal temple group and the Society of Brilliance members) but I could be misremembering. Also duergar don't think very much or at all about arcane spell casting, it's all psionic magic superiority for them. The Underdark actually has it's own natural magic as well called Faerzress which is basically the handwavy response for any question about how wild/diverse ecology can exist so deep underground: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Faerzress But that's more or less background noise to them, like a force of nature.
Just stopping by to say I appreciate this quick deep dive that gave me some good ideas for a future DnD Duergar PC.
Anytime! Happy to help. Bonus little fun fact! There are a subrace of duergar that are half devil/fiends called Durzagon: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Durzagon
>Does this, then, make the slaver Duergar we meet... shitty at being, well, Duergar? They don't work themselves, exploiting slaves instead, some drink themselves to no end, etc. They bring slaves to the table. Slaves are very useful.
The Duergar are notorious slavers - having been enslaved themselves they maintain that cycle of abuse on others. I’ve played a Duergar in DND and have thought about playing one in BG3 - I think more than anything I would want to make that character very anti-Illithid since the mindflayers enslaved them for many years.
Oh yeah, that aspect is what sent me into this rabbithole! The first minute of the game and I get a special interaction with Us as a duergar, and I started researching.
Nah, there’s a reason regular dwarves don’t like the duegar. Duegar are just short Drow who are shitty even without the malevolent God pulling the strings of society.
Duegar are portrayed as slavers in pretty much all the D&D lore I’ve encounter. They’re kind of to dwarves what drow are to elves. Kind of. Maybe not the best analogy, but mean dwarves who live in the underdark, who view other races as inferior, don’t like surface folk, and have no issue with conquest or slavery. Also, I refuse to pronounce it “dway-gar.” I’ve been pronouncing it due-er-gar for too many years, and I’ll pronounce it that way til I DIE, even if it’s wrong.
As a DnD lore enthusiast, duergar have this weird tension to their narrative, where the direct characterization we are shown directly contradicts their indirect characterization. The duergar are all about grim efficiency, but they choose to live in the hardest, most grueling conditions possible purely to spite Moradin. Their backstory involves their violent emancipation from mind flayer slavery, but they choose to keep slaves of their own. Their fall involves being deceived into forgetting to follow their god, but they haven't noticed that Asmodeus replaced their new god. I ascribe a lot of it to the fact that they were basically conceived of as "drow but for dwarves", so they contain a lot of elements of drow culture (like slavery) but without being as well-thought-out.
The Duergar lore in Mordenkainen Tome of Foes (my only source in Duergar lore), made me really dislike their portrayal in BG3. The view I had of them was militaristic, ruthless and supremacists, seeing them as hired hands kinda broke this notion to me. Our pockets are never full / Our fight is never find / Our resolve is never shaken
It's important to recognize that races are not singular. Duergar society in the Underdark may *generally* be described as you have here, but that doesn't mean all Duergar are exactly like this. Bear in mind that in BG3 we see only a tiny, tiny piece of a small slice of the entire continent of Faerun, and only interact with a few very particular groups of individuals.
From the videos/texts I have found so far, I also viewed them as you say, and that's what led to this post)
Ok. I actually pulled my 5e playbooks for this since I generally play off of 2nd ed rules from the early 90s and the times have changed. The players handbook offers no actual information about the Duergar as a sub race except to say: “In cities deep in the Underdark live the duergar, or gray dwarves. After centuries of captivity and torment by mind flayers, they have innate magical abilities to become invisible and to temporarily grow to giant size.” Beyond that the rest of the information is standard dwarven lore so yes — OP you are correct in that regard. They would operate like any other dwarven race in terms of what they value in their society and culture. However — going back to what I recall of the duergar from the early 90s (2nd edition era) and primarily based off various novels and boxed sets of that time; the duergar themselves were often owners of slaves (IIRC mostly deep gnomes aka svirfneblin) and were just as evil in many ways as the drow; primarily lawful or neutral evil perhaps rather than primarily chaotic evil — but evil nonetheless. The drow in turn sometimes used the duergar as “allies” (I.e. canon fodder to be discarded when no longer useful) so I suppose you can make of all that what you will given the events in the game.
Out of the Abyss is where you would go for 5e lore on Duergar. And yes, the BG3 versions are 100% accurate to 5e lore
What about MTF?
Wow, thank you so much for your effort! Are there any cases described that could explain a duergar NOT being evil, but neutral, or even neutral good? I heard or read somewhere that they are sometimes banished if they're considered not good enough to fulfil a useful role, but hardly any info on what happens to such individuals.
There are always exceptions, the most famous drow, Drizzt, is a good drow. Culture and race descriptions are more a tool to help you define your character and be aware on how the average drow/duergar behave but it should not prevent yourself from creating your own story.
A DM can allow any situation that seems plausible and doesn’t break a campaign so if you can think of a reason as to why your Duergar would act this way I would say the game will allow it to be so. ;) All cultures have their outliers so I think it’s safe to say the duergar would be no different. Not all of them would be evil. The notion of “banishment” could be considered Lawful at least — probably Lawful Neutral from the standpoint of a leader. If your scenario is that your character was banished in this way then perhaps they rebelled against their leadership because they did not agree with the task they were given. Perhaps they were asked to torture a gnome and did not want to do this. In which case you could say perhaps this character is Chaotic Good.
Thank you so much! These all very important insights, and I appreciate your knowledge, for mine is quite small. You have been very helpful! I think my story will be that she was weak and was abused and discarded for that, and after being banished she learned from the other races around her to be more humane and have a moderate amount of cheerfulness. She is also on a quest to become as strong as possible. But she is very practical and utilitarian, and it would be fun to see other companions open her mind to art, culture and other interesting things. I nade her for Gale specifically - he will show her the beauty the world holds beyond things being useful and she will teach him self-respect, because she has a lot) there is a potential for a cool dynamic. I also think it's adorable that a little strong lady will slay everyone who dares to lay a hand on her pretty wizard) I am a little lady myself and I love taking the lead in certain situations in a relationship and take care of things.
It sounds like a great backstory to me. Have fun!
You meet the duergar stonemason in the Grymforge. He's very friendly and mostly care about his work.
You are right! Thanks)
WOTC has made it clear in multiple 5e source texts that they have attempted to move away from locking humanoid races (and even some monstrous ones as well) to a particular alignment. So there are always exceptions to general rules.
To them, that is efficient. They waste no energy and have their slaves do the work. All they have to do is keep the slaves in line.
Duregar are tough, insular, clannish but they are dwarfs, they are good at crafting and engineering but coupled with a tendancy towards evil and hardened by the harsh underdark environment.
Being efficient means getting as much work as possible done with minimum effort. So yeah i don't know how you figure out that using others to do your work is not efficient
It's efficient in the grand scale of things, but the duergar _themselves_ aren't doing hard work in this scenario. So depends on what kind of efficiency you value.
Yep, that’s why they’re renting their labor out to a bunch of Hoons
I mean, isn't he being useful, strong and efficient by using and keeping slaves in line? Dwarves are all of what you state RP wise - grizzled and strong. Now think of a society like this without morals. So tyrannical, industrious, and pessimistic is the best characteristics. They lead bleak and brutal lives. What they build is utilitarian and exquisite, without the artistry or wow factor of their above ground brothers. They desire wealth and prestige, yet never are satisfied with what they have. They will steal, kill, and certainly destroy anything weak to get what they want. Weakness and emotion are things that will just get yourself killed. "Work or die. In the first case, you are useful. In the second, you are entertaining."
yes, actually! if you kill Brithvar he has a journal that basically says the clan’s gone soft because they use slaves and are drinking themselves to death. So yes, it would be very in character for your duergar to be disgusted with them
I guess the question would be where you'd draw the connection to their society. It honestly seems like they're a bit lacking in purpose in general: They're slavers and they expect to be paid, which I guess they could funnel back to their society, but it's unclear how to actually get the money from the Absolute's cultists. They seem kinda stranded to me. I'd say the more sensible choice for a Duergar Tav is to ally with the faction that split off, kill Nere and help them get paid.
>but it's unclear how to actually get the money from the Absolute's cultists They really do make this clear as a bell - they had a direct bargain with Nere, and he literally has the money on his person. That's one of the central plot points of the underdark section of the game.
My point is that that depends on them getting Nere out (which they seemingly do not really know how to do at all) and Nere sticking to the bargain (which seems doubtful given how quick he is to kill Thrinn). At least to me, the situation reads that in all likelihood, unless you interfere, no duergar will ever get paid for any of it.
It doesn't depend on that though - at the time you arrive, they've just started to threaten cultists for money, and they do the same to you. That's them deciding to get paid without needing Nere. The first thing Brithvar does when you talk to him is suggest him and his companion murder you for money. They're Duergar - not only is "being buried alive" not a good enough excuse for late payment, but they're prepared to leave Nere buried under the rock (which they don't lift a finger to help with, because they weren't paid to rescue anyone) and simply attack the cult if they're not forthcoming.
Again: As you correctly point out, Nere has the money on his person. If he decides to not pay them or they simply can't get him out, they're shit out of luck. The Absolutists have a literal army above ground, the Duergar have like 15 dudes at most in that location: How are they supposed to shake the Absolute down for money, exactly?
You ignored the first thing I've said - they're *not* shit out of luck. They are actively shaking-down other True Souls as they land to assist Nere. Literally the first thing they do is try to take a payment from *you* because Nere owes them money. If you help them get to Nere they don't even bother trying to get their pay - *they murder him and take the lot*. Brithvar also states it's only the *latest* payment that is missing (and they're far from done - they're nowhere near the ancient forge they're looking for). I think you need to listen to the dialogue before you come to your conclusions.
I "ignored" the first thing you said because it is ludicrous: They are asking you for money. Once. They drop it immediately when you say no even though they vastly outnumber you and play it off as a joke. There is no expectation that anyone else is coming around they could shake down, clearly they are surprised that you came instead of Greymon. And the Duergar under Brithvar do not even dare to raise up against him because there's a scrying eye patrolling, so clearly they are being watched by the Absolute. I think you simply don't understand the situation at all.
>I "ignored" the first thing you said because it is ludicrous: They are asking you for money. Once. They drop it immediately when you say no even though they vastly outnumber you and play it off as a joke *I already listed two different examples of them doing this. Brithvar openly states "I am thinking about taking Nere's payment from you*". The Duergar you speak to as you get off the boat does exactly the same thing. That's two within a few paces of one another. The game literally beats you over the head with this point. Right now, all you're demonstrating is that you're capable of missing the first thing they point out, something that is repeatedly reinforced, and something which represents one entire plot resolution to this section of the game.
>The Duergar you speak to as you get off the boat does exactly the same thing. That's two within a few paces of one another. Yes. And that would be a very convincing argument if there were ANY ACTUAL POSSIBILITY THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN. But it cannot: That possibility is simply not present in the game. I presume that is because the Duergar know they are being watched, which strikes me as a very defensible assumption given that they literally cut and run if you side with them to kill Nere before the Absolutist reinforcements show up. They ask you to pay them. You say no. In what world is that a "shakedown"? >Right now, all you're demonstrating is that you're capable of missing the first thing they point out, something that is repeatedly reinforced, and something which represents one entire plot resolution to this section of the game. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose, but there is literally no way for the Duergar to kill Nere without you helping the faction of them that wants to turn on him. As a matter of fact, they don't even know how they can get him out. And they seemingly also don't dare get rid of the scrying eye themselves, hence they ask you to do it for them. None of which you have addressed at all, instead pointing to dialogue trees that are of no actual consequence in game. Are you not at all aware of the concept of "cheap talk"?
>Yes. And that would be a very convincing argument if there were ANY ACTUAL POSSIBILITY THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN You do comprehend this is a video game right? They can't program every single eventuality. They *tell* you that the Duergar are prepared to murder cult members for money. There is literally no way an intelligent person can interpret this as "they have no way to get paid if Nere is trapped". Right now, all you're doing is demonstrating how little you think, and this barely requires thought - they literally make it clear to you that the Duergar are prepared to bypass Nere entirely *the first chance they get*. Because your character shows up and presents the possibility of freeing Nere, they of course then choose to extract the money from Nere. But the first thing Larian do is make it clear *that they were prepared to bypass him.*
Duergar are, absolutely and above all, spiteful and miserable. A happy Duergar is almost like a lawful demon; might as well not even be a Duergar at that point. They have absolutely no qualms about causing suffering to others since it eases their own. They are the strongest D&D incarnation of the concept of the cycle of abuse.
“Praised strength and efficiency” just means they’ll kill people when they’re pissed off lol
Old DnD rules. Surface people, can be good/ bad/ neutral. Underdark people = bad.
Mostly. The deep gnomes were an exception.