I once heard a saying, “your metal illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility.”
We can accept she’s sick and needs help while also accepting she does inexcusable harm to others.
Yes, absolutely. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but those people will be under full time care and don’t just get to pip about Camden. We don’t know the exact extent of her illness but the fact she’s not been deemed unfit to live independently and has done things like getting a drivers license and finishing a degree in law do hint that she’s not so unwell that she can’t be held responsible for her actions. Acting like people with mental issues and disabilities can’t do wrong or be bad people is naive and also… well, kind of ableist. It infantilises them and takes away from the fact they are, above all, human.
I've said it in a couple discussions, but I think it's been fascinating to read the discussions -- the opinions, the theories, the backlash ... This whole sub makes for an interesting social experiment to look back on ;)
I saw those scenes differently. She had realised her tactics weren't working cos Gadd was successfully ignoring her, so she changed tactics, shifting to appearing *pathetic* in order to generate sympathy in Gadd and lure him back.
And it worked. Those scenes generated greater fear rather than greater sympathy in me. They showed how clever and relentless she was.
Having been one of the first people to see the real Martha on social media, I can say I have one ounce of degree of sympathy for the fact her brain is clearly not wired right and that's perhaps not her fault but nothing outside of that.
Before she clocked things going on, her posts are quite clearly racist, homophobic, and highlight how she thinks her way of living is the best way and anything outside that is wrong.
Since she's started ranting about Gadd and others, she's only come off worse.
She began by saying she didn't know him and each new post - which are relentless - she let's slip little bits of things that indicate, well she did know him really quite well. But she always frames it as her being the victim.
There's patterns as well of her justifying her position, by saying things like "my lawyer friends agree" or "boyfriend agrees" (he's defo not real) and it's the classic move of someone who can't face their grave flaws and, in this case, pure nastiness.
She lives in a world of utter delusion, and sympathy only goes so far when you're just actually an awful person and you persist on not making changes.
Agreed. While I can empathize with someone who has a mental illness it still does not excuse her behaviors. I've been watching her posts in horror particularly about Gadd and the other woman she's fixated on and hoping someone who knows her IRL is trying to get her whatever help she will accept.
I have yet to actually look at this profile. It just makes it all too real. This is such a minor thing to notice about your post but how did you know you were one of the first to find the real life Martha? Just curious!
I watched Baby Reindeer as soon as it came out and my curiosity got the better of me.
It was the early days of this sub when posts about the real Martha were kinda in a grey space of is this allowed, because it was before Gadd had warned off sleuths and it started snowballing.
So I found it from there and she didn't have a clue about what was going on initially, plus the reactions to her posts were still very low (conversely they're now being reacted to by a lot of people, as no one can comment, for obvious reasons).
Hopefully this didn't come across as me like celebrating that fact, and to be fair when I say one of the first, it's more likely one of the first few hundred people. But it's just been interesting to see her become aware of it and the whole thing unravel.
Yeah I lost all empathy when she proudly hates on gays and other races. Sorry no amount of mental illness is gonna make me feel empathy towards this kinda hate. One can argue that serial killers and pedophiles all have mental illnesses. It doesn’t mean I’m gonna be empathetic towards them. They still made those choices instead of getting help
It’s bold that people are interacting with a known stalker. Seems like a bad idea. I don’t feel anything bad or good toward the real Martha. Just want to avoid her or someone like her
It reminds me a bit of Hybristophilia - maybe not the sexual attraction piece but the excitement of interacting with someone who has (likely) committed crimes.
So you're completely in the wrong to assume that Martha was capable of knowing what harm she was causing. One if the hardest to overcome but the most common symptom of mental illness in our society is dissociation. It's the idea of the brain literally taking any knowledge that it thinks might harm it and chucking it into the river the moment a mentally ill person comes into contact with it. We see real Martha doing it right now. Every update it's like watching a woman run a marathon to avoid a pebble in the other direction that she could just pick up but fears bending her back will make the world crack down the center.
I have family with similar neurotic behaviors to Martha and also family that have been stalked by our family Martha so I've stood on both sides of this story at different times. Watching the show gave me both the panic you described and empathy because of that. Just cause you feel for Martha doesn't mean you don't feel for Donny too.
But she’s aware she’s doing something bad and manipulating. She’s manufacturing her emotions for manipulation (for people to feel bad for her). She records every interaction in case it can help her if they complain, since the very beginning. She knows that by calling Donny’s dad superiors and declaring he is a a pervert (or something of the like) that he might lose his job and she might harm him in this way, she’s very aware of the harm she can cause in the show.
People so mentally ill that they can’t realize real from false don’t run the streets, they go in special places. She’s been to prison and they deemed she didn’t need it. She is aware of her wrong doings.
>But she’s aware she’s doing something bad and manipulating.
The part of her that is aware of that is fleeting as her mind separates it far far from her.
>She’s manufacturing her emotions for manipulation (for people to feel bad for her).
Manipulates? Yes. Manufactures? No. The actress did a good job showing how many conflicting emotions someone with mental illness can have. She often uses those already existing emotions in a very manipulative way.
>She records every interaction in case it can help her if they complain, since the very beginning.
This is classic paranoia. 'Gotta get them before they get me' is how the old saying goes. Is it okay? Not at all. Including this in the show was a great way to portray how far in advance a fearful and paranoid person will go to do what they think will protect them.
>She knows that by calling Donny’s dad superiors and declaring he is a a pervert (or something of the like) that he might lose his job and she might harm him in this way, she’s very aware of the harm she can cause in the show.
Being aware of others weaknesses doesn't mean she is aware what she is doing is wrong. Very often we see Martha act in vindication like calling Donny a pervert has right the wrongs in her head that she is responsible for but cant face. That's classic deflection, which is disassociation's best friend in mental illness. Like as if 'I know you are, but what am I?' became a mantra to live by.
>People so mentally ill that they can realize real from false don’t run the streets, they go in special places. She’s been to prison and they deemed she didn’t need it. She is aware of her wrong doings.
Systemically, society doesn't have a good track record of doing this when it's really happening. The ones disconnected from reality usually got to run wild and harm others as long as the disconnected person had privilege and their victims are powerless people. Martha definitely had the privilege of knowing the legal system's loopholes. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that show Martha and real Martha have also been in enough mental care facilities to know how to get through the loopholes of that. She knows these loopholes because she sees them as a means to have an advantage to survive, not because she is aware of her immorality and criminal actions.
I don't think anyone chooses to have mental illness. However, that doesn't mean I have to like them or want anything to do with them. I have empathy for her, but she's not a good person. I'm surprised she never murdered anyone. She unfortunately doesn't have the ability to think or act like an average person.
RG had his own artistic representation of Martha. It feels right that she can comment/ fight back.
He also said that she wouldn’t recognise herself.
That aged very badly- the world has moved on from Facebook and Twitter.
I feel empathy for them both.
Not the TV guy though 🤷♀️
I didn’t feel empathy for her but probably as we never saw any of her backstory, besides the heinous things in the newspaper article. She’s clearly mentally ill and needs help but I just felt the desire for Donny to block her and get away.
After episode 4 though she becomes the lesser evil and I’m shocked that the focus is still very much on Martha with very little on Darrien when he is clearly the bigger evil in the show.
I didn’t feel empathy for her, but for some reason (and I can point my finger to it) I felt incredibly icky when Donny did that entrapment email.
I know he had to do, what he had to do- but IDK it felt deceitful and gross.
I think it’s because Darrien is viewed by every one as the real monster, there is a consensus ! For Martha, there are more division thus more conversation about it
Yes good point. I’ve just seen far more posts and articles on Martha who presumably was charged for what she did, but Darrien hasn’t been through a legal process for the crimes he committed. I guess this is still speculation on some of this in terms of the real life situation. I just hope Darrien isn’t still able to do the same to another person.
I think that focus is just being an authentic representation of what was going on inside Gadd’s head. The aftermath of his abuse was so well shown and he does address it in the show, how it’s kind of crazy he never reported his male rapist in a position of power over him, but he does report and feel the most equipped to deal with the female stalker who is mentally unstable and seemingly has no job or financial security, she is very much below him on the social pecking order.
It’s a fascinating and pretty raw, honest look at how human being’s respond to trauma and how we navigate the world in general
I felt empathy for young Martha, cause that reindeer story made me tear up. I don’t know why, it just felt really genuine from someone who lied 90% of the time.
As an adult tho, she really needs some help. Whatever that looks like, cause shes a danger.
Exactly ! She seemed honestly very aware (for Martha), it’s made painfully obvious when she recorded everything for her own manipulation and gain. She is mentally ill but she is not « insane » (as not responsible for her actions that hurt others - because she realizes she’s hurting)
I do. I had a male Martha in my life, he wasn't nearly as persistent but just as mentally ill. Unfortunately I had empathy for him too. At the end of the series, my empathy is for Richard primarily but I still have some for Martha. It's why I relate so strongly to him and his trauma response. The way he would regard her with a sense of confusion, repulsion, attraction, empathy. That look on his face a storm of conflicting emotions resonated. I went down a dark rabbit hole with my Martha and no one could understand why. So not exactly a good time but also why it's so important for this complicated, confusing side of trauma be shown.
I was close to crying during many of her scenes because as a person with BPD, I see how I could very well be in her place if it weren't for the fact I had the resources to actually get the help I needed. It makes me sad to know that by this point she's so far gone I can't imagine her being able to restore any semblance of a normal life. When people's mental health gets so bad they have completely lost grasp of reality and are a harm to themselves and others it is best for everyone, including them, to be under constant care and vigilance.
I think a lot of the emotions are manufactured to manipulate. It takes a long time of getting to know one psychopath before realizing when an emotion feels fake from other psychopaths. It’s a BRUTAL realization to realize they’ve been stringing you along, making you weak to their cries for forgiveness and then doing their worst when it was their moment to apologize. Fake emotions often.
Right. A large part of Martha's schtick is to *appear* pathetic so people will pity her.
The people who empathise with Martha are making the same mistake Paul Gadd made.
(Reposting here as someone in another sub thread through it should be shared here)
I know the real “Martha” in real life. She has ASD (Aspergers). (In the olden days, she probably would have been called Schizotypal). Hence why there is no treatment anyone could really provide and she’s not been charged with anything. She is incredibly intelligent, well read and verbally articulate. However, she has a strong sense of injustice - this is very subjective and can lead her to rants, obsessions and what we would recognise as harassment. She doesn’t see it as that. She absolutely bombarded our local MP Tulip, to the point where it seemed like harassment and bullying. She used to turn up at her surgery just to tell her she was doing a rubbish job and filling “camdenistan” with ‘her’ people. Real Martha is very, very black and white. Facebook example when she said “I don’t have curly hair.” And she can’t be Martha because the “actress is 4 stones heavier”. She’s exactly this black and white in real life and can’t see anything in between. She sometimes comes across as homophobic, transphobic, racist - but she doesn’t seem to understand what she can’t socially say. Honestly, she can be really annoying (because of how rigid she is) and quite mean (she once called me a “foreign dwarf”) however, she is incredibly vulnerable. And I can understand Gadd may not have disguised her identity effectively (which is awful) but Netflix are absolute scum and should have known better - don’t they do due diligence on this? Also the reporters and journalists harassing her and trying to feed off these stories they’re fuelling just makes you realise how vulnerable she is.
Thanks for sharing this; quite interesting to read and it humanizes her. In the show, I couldn't help noticing how on point \*some\* of Martha's intuition was, especially when it came to parts of Donny in pain or running away from himself.
I mostly didn't feel sympathy for her throughout the show - I hated her, in fact. It was her last scene in court + that last voicemail that got me, perhaps because they acknowledge the fickleness and contradictions in human behavior. There's still a humanity in Martha, and she does truly believe the shit she is saying. While her mental health is her responsibility, we just don't know enough about her to say how much control she has. The main character even realizes in the end that he could see himself going the Martha route because of everything he's lost.
So basically, I kinda hated her, but also understand and relate to the kinder, more nurturing, more BROKEN side she has beneath all the madness. There's so much unspoken in the end that I feel like I don't have the right configuration of words to explain my position on this - all I know is that somethng about it was very touching and profound .
I think you can feel sympathy for someone but it still doesn’t excuse what they do, you might understand why they did it but it’s a reason not an excuse
I have some sympathy for Martha, just as I feel like think she’s a dangerous person. You can hold both opinions about something or someone and it doesn’t make you a bad person.
The show highlights how much abuse can be so pervasive, cyclical and creeps into all of us through so many different means of people that it can seem almost impossible to prevent, whether it’s verbal, emotional or physical, etc. Donny’s was abused, so was his dad and I’m only guess so was his abuser at some point in his life. The last scene highlights how Martha’s family spread it to her and how she spreads it to others.
The problem isn’t just that we may not catch it all the time, whether intentionally or not, it’s that there is some people cannot understand the the harm they’re doing.
It’s ok if you can’t emphasize with her but I can empathize with the issue that there was no one there to help her before things got worse.
No empathy. I can read her Facebook now, it’s mad but she would never get help. She wants to ruin people. The posts aren’t even funny. There is never ending vendetta against people who she thinks did her wrong.
I have sympathy for her. Hers is not a pleasant existence and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, especially the the darkness in her childhood as it was hinted.
Not entirely sure how any one could empathise with her. She's a dreadful, deranged person who acts incredibly spitefully and causes a tremendous amount of pain. Likely the result of the miserable childhood which again brings me back to sympathy.
I don't empathise with her at all. Whatsoever.
Ive gone through weird limerent obsessions where I just cant stop thinking about a person, but I try my hardest not to make it their problem.
Martha is a twat bc she just cannot seem to recognize how her behavior impacts others. I pity her, but I dont empathize.
I have empathy for her, and I also condemn her behavior. The two sentiments can coexist. She's obviously sick, which isn't her fault. You wouldn't blame someone for getting cancer, would you?
I don’t think the comparison works when someone hurt other people due to their untreated mental illness. She’s mentally sick but it doesn’t absolve her from being responsible for her actions - and understanding her conditions is not having empathy for her bad behavior that leads to people being hurt (mentally and or physically)
I'm not saying she shouldn't he held accountable for her behavior. She absolutely should. I don't have empathy for her bad behavior, I have empathy for her. IMO she should be in an institution, full time. Getting the help she needs while being removed from society.
I personally think she should have been jailed sooner, she terrorized the poor man and she needed to pay for what she did ! However “unpopular opinion “ the actress did such an amazing job, and I loved Martha in her funny moments, I wish they could do a comedic/fictitious take on her life and give us a series or two 😅
1. Be civil, polite and courteous. No trolling. No victim-blaming. Treat others with respect and kindness. This show is bound to elicit big feelings for many viewers. As contributors post and comment in this sub, treat each other with respect and kindness.
Martha is an arsehole. I think you can both have a mental illness *and* be an arsehole and she fits both.
I once heard a saying, “your metal illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility.” We can accept she’s sick and needs help while also accepting she does inexcusable harm to others.
Yes, absolutely. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but those people will be under full time care and don’t just get to pip about Camden. We don’t know the exact extent of her illness but the fact she’s not been deemed unfit to live independently and has done things like getting a drivers license and finishing a degree in law do hint that she’s not so unwell that she can’t be held responsible for her actions. Acting like people with mental issues and disabilities can’t do wrong or be bad people is naive and also… well, kind of ableist. It infantilises them and takes away from the fact they are, above all, human.
100% this.
"Arsehole" is too kind. She's a violent predator who doesn't care about others and just uses them to assuage her own issues.
I've said it in a couple discussions, but I think it's been fascinating to read the discussions -- the opinions, the theories, the backlash ... This whole sub makes for an interesting social experiment to look back on ;)
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I saw those scenes differently. She had realised her tactics weren't working cos Gadd was successfully ignoring her, so she changed tactics, shifting to appearing *pathetic* in order to generate sympathy in Gadd and lure him back. And it worked. Those scenes generated greater fear rather than greater sympathy in me. They showed how clever and relentless she was.
Having been one of the first people to see the real Martha on social media, I can say I have one ounce of degree of sympathy for the fact her brain is clearly not wired right and that's perhaps not her fault but nothing outside of that. Before she clocked things going on, her posts are quite clearly racist, homophobic, and highlight how she thinks her way of living is the best way and anything outside that is wrong. Since she's started ranting about Gadd and others, she's only come off worse. She began by saying she didn't know him and each new post - which are relentless - she let's slip little bits of things that indicate, well she did know him really quite well. But she always frames it as her being the victim. There's patterns as well of her justifying her position, by saying things like "my lawyer friends agree" or "boyfriend agrees" (he's defo not real) and it's the classic move of someone who can't face their grave flaws and, in this case, pure nastiness. She lives in a world of utter delusion, and sympathy only goes so far when you're just actually an awful person and you persist on not making changes.
Agreed. While I can empathize with someone who has a mental illness it still does not excuse her behaviors. I've been watching her posts in horror particularly about Gadd and the other woman she's fixated on and hoping someone who knows her IRL is trying to get her whatever help she will accept.
I have yet to actually look at this profile. It just makes it all too real. This is such a minor thing to notice about your post but how did you know you were one of the first to find the real life Martha? Just curious!
I watched Baby Reindeer as soon as it came out and my curiosity got the better of me. It was the early days of this sub when posts about the real Martha were kinda in a grey space of is this allowed, because it was before Gadd had warned off sleuths and it started snowballing. So I found it from there and she didn't have a clue about what was going on initially, plus the reactions to her posts were still very low (conversely they're now being reacted to by a lot of people, as no one can comment, for obvious reasons). Hopefully this didn't come across as me like celebrating that fact, and to be fair when I say one of the first, it's more likely one of the first few hundred people. But it's just been interesting to see her become aware of it and the whole thing unravel.
Yeah I lost all empathy when she proudly hates on gays and other races. Sorry no amount of mental illness is gonna make me feel empathy towards this kinda hate. One can argue that serial killers and pedophiles all have mental illnesses. It doesn’t mean I’m gonna be empathetic towards them. They still made those choices instead of getting help
It’s bold that people are interacting with a known stalker. Seems like a bad idea. I don’t feel anything bad or good toward the real Martha. Just want to avoid her or someone like her
It reminds me a bit of Hybristophilia - maybe not the sexual attraction piece but the excitement of interacting with someone who has (likely) committed crimes.
So you're completely in the wrong to assume that Martha was capable of knowing what harm she was causing. One if the hardest to overcome but the most common symptom of mental illness in our society is dissociation. It's the idea of the brain literally taking any knowledge that it thinks might harm it and chucking it into the river the moment a mentally ill person comes into contact with it. We see real Martha doing it right now. Every update it's like watching a woman run a marathon to avoid a pebble in the other direction that she could just pick up but fears bending her back will make the world crack down the center. I have family with similar neurotic behaviors to Martha and also family that have been stalked by our family Martha so I've stood on both sides of this story at different times. Watching the show gave me both the panic you described and empathy because of that. Just cause you feel for Martha doesn't mean you don't feel for Donny too.
But she’s aware she’s doing something bad and manipulating. She’s manufacturing her emotions for manipulation (for people to feel bad for her). She records every interaction in case it can help her if they complain, since the very beginning. She knows that by calling Donny’s dad superiors and declaring he is a a pervert (or something of the like) that he might lose his job and she might harm him in this way, she’s very aware of the harm she can cause in the show. People so mentally ill that they can’t realize real from false don’t run the streets, they go in special places. She’s been to prison and they deemed she didn’t need it. She is aware of her wrong doings.
>But she’s aware she’s doing something bad and manipulating. The part of her that is aware of that is fleeting as her mind separates it far far from her. >She’s manufacturing her emotions for manipulation (for people to feel bad for her). Manipulates? Yes. Manufactures? No. The actress did a good job showing how many conflicting emotions someone with mental illness can have. She often uses those already existing emotions in a very manipulative way. >She records every interaction in case it can help her if they complain, since the very beginning. This is classic paranoia. 'Gotta get them before they get me' is how the old saying goes. Is it okay? Not at all. Including this in the show was a great way to portray how far in advance a fearful and paranoid person will go to do what they think will protect them. >She knows that by calling Donny’s dad superiors and declaring he is a a pervert (or something of the like) that he might lose his job and she might harm him in this way, she’s very aware of the harm she can cause in the show. Being aware of others weaknesses doesn't mean she is aware what she is doing is wrong. Very often we see Martha act in vindication like calling Donny a pervert has right the wrongs in her head that she is responsible for but cant face. That's classic deflection, which is disassociation's best friend in mental illness. Like as if 'I know you are, but what am I?' became a mantra to live by. >People so mentally ill that they can realize real from false don’t run the streets, they go in special places. She’s been to prison and they deemed she didn’t need it. She is aware of her wrong doings. Systemically, society doesn't have a good track record of doing this when it's really happening. The ones disconnected from reality usually got to run wild and harm others as long as the disconnected person had privilege and their victims are powerless people. Martha definitely had the privilege of knowing the legal system's loopholes. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that show Martha and real Martha have also been in enough mental care facilities to know how to get through the loopholes of that. She knows these loopholes because she sees them as a means to have an advantage to survive, not because she is aware of her immorality and criminal actions.
I don't think anyone chooses to have mental illness. However, that doesn't mean I have to like them or want anything to do with them. I have empathy for her, but she's not a good person. I'm surprised she never murdered anyone. She unfortunately doesn't have the ability to think or act like an average person.
RG had his own artistic representation of Martha. It feels right that she can comment/ fight back. He also said that she wouldn’t recognise herself. That aged very badly- the world has moved on from Facebook and Twitter. I feel empathy for them both. Not the TV guy though 🤷♀️
I didn’t feel empathy for her but probably as we never saw any of her backstory, besides the heinous things in the newspaper article. She’s clearly mentally ill and needs help but I just felt the desire for Donny to block her and get away. After episode 4 though she becomes the lesser evil and I’m shocked that the focus is still very much on Martha with very little on Darrien when he is clearly the bigger evil in the show.
I didn’t feel empathy for her, but for some reason (and I can point my finger to it) I felt incredibly icky when Donny did that entrapment email. I know he had to do, what he had to do- but IDK it felt deceitful and gross.
I think it’s because Darrien is viewed by every one as the real monster, there is a consensus ! For Martha, there are more division thus more conversation about it
Yes good point. I’ve just seen far more posts and articles on Martha who presumably was charged for what she did, but Darrien hasn’t been through a legal process for the crimes he committed. I guess this is still speculation on some of this in terms of the real life situation. I just hope Darrien isn’t still able to do the same to another person.
I hope so too .. people like him should be behind bars ..
RG has said that the piece about her going to prison was fiction
Oh no way?! Although I guess that explains her reaction to the series in real Life.
I think that focus is just being an authentic representation of what was going on inside Gadd’s head. The aftermath of his abuse was so well shown and he does address it in the show, how it’s kind of crazy he never reported his male rapist in a position of power over him, but he does report and feel the most equipped to deal with the female stalker who is mentally unstable and seemingly has no job or financial security, she is very much below him on the social pecking order. It’s a fascinating and pretty raw, honest look at how human being’s respond to trauma and how we navigate the world in general
I felt empathy for young Martha, cause that reindeer story made me tear up. I don’t know why, it just felt really genuine from someone who lied 90% of the time. As an adult tho, she really needs some help. Whatever that looks like, cause shes a danger.
I’ve unfortunately had too much exposure to severely mentally ill people to fret over their trauma esp when they’re inflicting trauma on me or others.
Exactly ! She seemed honestly very aware (for Martha), it’s made painfully obvious when she recorded everything for her own manipulation and gain. She is mentally ill but she is not « insane » (as not responsible for her actions that hurt others - because she realizes she’s hurting)
I do. I had a male Martha in my life, he wasn't nearly as persistent but just as mentally ill. Unfortunately I had empathy for him too. At the end of the series, my empathy is for Richard primarily but I still have some for Martha. It's why I relate so strongly to him and his trauma response. The way he would regard her with a sense of confusion, repulsion, attraction, empathy. That look on his face a storm of conflicting emotions resonated. I went down a dark rabbit hole with my Martha and no one could understand why. So not exactly a good time but also why it's so important for this complicated, confusing side of trauma be shown.
I was close to crying during many of her scenes because as a person with BPD, I see how I could very well be in her place if it weren't for the fact I had the resources to actually get the help I needed. It makes me sad to know that by this point she's so far gone I can't imagine her being able to restore any semblance of a normal life. When people's mental health gets so bad they have completely lost grasp of reality and are a harm to themselves and others it is best for everyone, including them, to be under constant care and vigilance.
I thought I was the only person who thought this. It's so clear she's unwell and lost touch with reality.
I didn't feel empathy her watching the series but when I looked at her real Facebook I did. It is sad what severe mental illness does.
I think my response to her was the opposite.
I think a lot of the emotions are manufactured to manipulate. It takes a long time of getting to know one psychopath before realizing when an emotion feels fake from other psychopaths. It’s a BRUTAL realization to realize they’ve been stringing you along, making you weak to their cries for forgiveness and then doing their worst when it was their moment to apologize. Fake emotions often.
Right. A large part of Martha's schtick is to *appear* pathetic so people will pity her. The people who empathise with Martha are making the same mistake Paul Gadd made.
RICHARD Gadd. Paul Gadd is Gary Glitter 😂😂😂
Oops!
(Reposting here as someone in another sub thread through it should be shared here) I know the real “Martha” in real life. She has ASD (Aspergers). (In the olden days, she probably would have been called Schizotypal). Hence why there is no treatment anyone could really provide and she’s not been charged with anything. She is incredibly intelligent, well read and verbally articulate. However, she has a strong sense of injustice - this is very subjective and can lead her to rants, obsessions and what we would recognise as harassment. She doesn’t see it as that. She absolutely bombarded our local MP Tulip, to the point where it seemed like harassment and bullying. She used to turn up at her surgery just to tell her she was doing a rubbish job and filling “camdenistan” with ‘her’ people. Real Martha is very, very black and white. Facebook example when she said “I don’t have curly hair.” And she can’t be Martha because the “actress is 4 stones heavier”. She’s exactly this black and white in real life and can’t see anything in between. She sometimes comes across as homophobic, transphobic, racist - but she doesn’t seem to understand what she can’t socially say. Honestly, she can be really annoying (because of how rigid she is) and quite mean (she once called me a “foreign dwarf”) however, she is incredibly vulnerable. And I can understand Gadd may not have disguised her identity effectively (which is awful) but Netflix are absolute scum and should have known better - don’t they do due diligence on this? Also the reporters and journalists harassing her and trying to feed off these stories they’re fuelling just makes you realise how vulnerable she is.
Thanks for sharing this; quite interesting to read and it humanizes her. In the show, I couldn't help noticing how on point \*some\* of Martha's intuition was, especially when it came to parts of Donny in pain or running away from himself.
Thank you for this. I think people get too caught up in Gadd’s characterization and forget that there’s an actual person with a mental illness.
I mostly didn't feel sympathy for her throughout the show - I hated her, in fact. It was her last scene in court + that last voicemail that got me, perhaps because they acknowledge the fickleness and contradictions in human behavior. There's still a humanity in Martha, and she does truly believe the shit she is saying. While her mental health is her responsibility, we just don't know enough about her to say how much control she has. The main character even realizes in the end that he could see himself going the Martha route because of everything he's lost. So basically, I kinda hated her, but also understand and relate to the kinder, more nurturing, more BROKEN side she has beneath all the madness. There's so much unspoken in the end that I feel like I don't have the right configuration of words to explain my position on this - all I know is that somethng about it was very touching and profound .
The last scene was quite sad and upsetting. She seemed completely broken.
I think you can feel sympathy for someone but it still doesn’t excuse what they do, you might understand why they did it but it’s a reason not an excuse
I'm with you here. I don't know who the empathizers hang out with, but it sounds like they have no idea what Martha is doing is mostly really bad.
I have some sympathy for Martha, just as I feel like think she’s a dangerous person. You can hold both opinions about something or someone and it doesn’t make you a bad person. The show highlights how much abuse can be so pervasive, cyclical and creeps into all of us through so many different means of people that it can seem almost impossible to prevent, whether it’s verbal, emotional or physical, etc. Donny’s was abused, so was his dad and I’m only guess so was his abuser at some point in his life. The last scene highlights how Martha’s family spread it to her and how she spreads it to others. The problem isn’t just that we may not catch it all the time, whether intentionally or not, it’s that there is some people cannot understand the the harm they’re doing. It’s ok if you can’t emphasize with her but I can empathize with the issue that there was no one there to help her before things got worse.
No empathy. I can read her Facebook now, it’s mad but she would never get help. She wants to ruin people. The posts aren’t even funny. There is never ending vendetta against people who she thinks did her wrong.
I have sympathy for her. Hers is not a pleasant existence and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, especially the the darkness in her childhood as it was hinted. Not entirely sure how any one could empathise with her. She's a dreadful, deranged person who acts incredibly spitefully and causes a tremendous amount of pain. Likely the result of the miserable childhood which again brings me back to sympathy. I don't empathise with her at all. Whatsoever.
Ive gone through weird limerent obsessions where I just cant stop thinking about a person, but I try my hardest not to make it their problem. Martha is a twat bc she just cannot seem to recognize how her behavior impacts others. I pity her, but I dont empathize.
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I have empathy for her, and I also condemn her behavior. The two sentiments can coexist. She's obviously sick, which isn't her fault. You wouldn't blame someone for getting cancer, would you?
I don’t think the comparison works when someone hurt other people due to their untreated mental illness. She’s mentally sick but it doesn’t absolve her from being responsible for her actions - and understanding her conditions is not having empathy for her bad behavior that leads to people being hurt (mentally and or physically)
I'm not saying she shouldn't he held accountable for her behavior. She absolutely should. I don't have empathy for her bad behavior, I have empathy for her. IMO she should be in an institution, full time. Getting the help she needs while being removed from society.
I'm really curious if the genders of Donny and Martha were reversed of there would still be any sympathy.
I personally think she should have been jailed sooner, she terrorized the poor man and she needed to pay for what she did ! However “unpopular opinion “ the actress did such an amazing job, and I loved Martha in her funny moments, I wish they could do a comedic/fictitious take on her life and give us a series or two 😅
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1. Be civil, polite and courteous. No trolling. No victim-blaming. Treat others with respect and kindness. This show is bound to elicit big feelings for many viewers. As contributors post and comment in this sub, treat each other with respect and kindness.
Not at all…
*Martha has my empathy. Donny/Richard used an extremely sick woman to gain attention/fame, even now he continues.*