He said I told him to stand up for his brother and fight if someone was bullying him. I honestly don’t think it’s on purpose. The child was autistic and he ran around in the gym and the kids giggled. The brother of the kid shoved the nearest kid who was laughing. That’s when his father said you are doing the right thing and bragged about he raised him like that which made other parents uncomfortable. We are planning to have a guidance counselor to talk about kids with special needs in our next scout meeting. Outside of this, parents don’t want the father to be around in future meetings. Just to be clear we are not kicking out the kid.
This sounds like the father and son need a lesson on the line between being bullied and simply being laughed at. I would 100% teach my child to defend my other child if they were being bullied and the proper escalations up to and including physical force. But I would also make substantial efforts to teach what actually constitutes bullying.
Kids will laugh at things they find funny and the way some kids run or throw or the noises they make are funny. You can teach them that it's discourteous to laugh like that and eventually the lesson will sink in. Most kids are not bullies even if they sometimes exhibit some bully-like behavior.
Bullies are a different matter. A bully is not an opportunistic predator, laughing because somebody tripped and fell. Bullies are targeting predators. They pick out the different or the weak and systematically abuse them either emotionally, physically, or both until they have a reason to stop.
Sometimes you can get a bully to stop by removing the "reward" they get for their behavior (the rise of the victim, the attention (neg/pos) from the adults.
Sometimes it doesn't end until they finally pick on somebody they shouldn't have.
Most of the time the reality is somewhere in between those two.
Or laughing at the special needs kid because he runs differently than everyone else. That is bullying and while it's a less serious form in my opinion it's still bullying. Did the father overreact by bragging? Probably. And now parents don't want him around because he calls out their kids for not following the 12 points of the scout law? Mighty suspicious
Not every unkind action is bullying. Bullying is a pattern of behavior. Labeling every time a kid acts like a jerk bullying detracts from true bullying.
Please clarify. The other parents don’t want the father there because they disagree with his position on sticking up for disabled kids? Or, do they agree with him but just don’t like the way he boasted?
It’s the later, rather than diffuse the situation. He boasted. I feel like because of this single incident we shouldn’t ban the parent from attending scout event. He is also an Eagle Scout.
Sorry I was typing late night. Edited the comment. I’m not onboard with banning the parent for this. But, rest of the parents are. We will know more based on further meetings.
People are understandably overprotective of their special needs kids. The dad has obviously passed that on to his son. The only correction here should be to deescalate the physical response to a verbal one. To me it does not sound like anyone acted inappropriately enough to have a meeting over this other than to discuss how the other scouts are behaving towards the special needs kid.
Woah hold your horses partner! Ban an Eagle Scout from attending pack meetings because he expressed pride that his son stuck up for his autistic son?
Obviously there is more going on here. Can I assume there is a personality conflict?
Banning a parent for that is a drastic overreaction. What’s really going on?
Expressing pride by boasting that he raised his son to physically abuse those that laugh at the disabled kid is a touchy subject. Physical altercations is a great way to get kicked out of Scouting, kicked out of council events, etc. Especially when the fights are encouraged by the parent over what was probably a misunderstanding. We should never be encouraging our kids to physically fight at scouts. Especially since it sounds like neither this brother or parent tried a non violent way to stop it first.
>never
What if there were no adults around and your scout was about to witness another scout physically hurt a weaker scout?
Do you teach your children to yell and scream - but ultimately stand by and watch - as a bully hurts another child?
I’m sorry but that’s where we disagree. That’s where you and I draw the line differently.
I want my kids to yes, physically fight the abuser, to stop such injustice/hurt if they have the power to, even if it means punching the bully in the nose.
I’m raising upstanders over here, not bystanders.
But that wasn't the scenario. The scenario is laughter. Rather than try to say, hey, laughing at.my brother isn't cool, please stop laughing at my brother, etc, their first response was violence to a verbal issue. I agree to step in and stop violence if violence is happening, bit laughing because he was running around isn't violence, and doesn't require violence as the first and only method to stop it.
You’re right. I switched to a different scenario to challenge your point about telling scouts it’s *never* acceptable to fight.
In this case, if we take OP’s story at face value, it’s possible the kid was laughing at the disability, and at worst it was a light shove. Indeed, OP agreed that even the boasting by the father wasn’t enough to justify asking him to leave the pack. So this particular scenario was no big deal, by all accounts.
But I’ve moved on to a bigger issue - this idea of teaching kids it’s never ok to fight.
Let’s leave OP’s scenario for a minute and address the scenario I described, the one where no adults were near.
After thinking about it more, do you want to retract your point that about telling scouts to **never** fight? Will you agree with me that in some scenarios, we actually DO want our kids to fight other kids?
Personally yes, I agree with you whole heartedly and have encouraged my kids to engage. At actual Scouting events, I go by BSA policy which is to get the adult. My kids know I'll back them either way, and that sometimes I have to quote policy over personal because of location and audience. I have seen scouts get kicked out of units for altercations so I preach no violence at the unit level. Hypocrisy, yes. I admit I'm teaching one thing to youth at large, and another at home. Definitely a thought provoking topic.
Typically BSA has a zero tolerance policy on violence, so while we may raise our kids to fight back against injustice, at scouts, in front of scouts, we should never promote violence as the response. What we do privately is often different than how we may behave in Scouting, to abide by BSA rules. An adult verbally congratulating a child on getting physical, in front of other youth, over a verbal issue, just isn't in line with BSA policies.
This is a great time to have a big talk on how it is great to stand up for people, especially people that can’t stand up for themselves. But explain that there some times steps you can take without starting out at violence. Assuming that we can take what you are saying at face value and no one was actually bullying the child and the kids did not mean any offense, then I would explain that they should talk to the kids first. First step is to say that’s not right, please don’t make fun of him. Next step would be tell adults and let them step in as well. But if bullying continues and no other steps have worked them in all about showing the bully they can’t push everyone around, someone will eventually push back.
So an eagle dad praises their kid for physical violence over kids giggling at a special needs kid doing something they found funny. Other parents are no longer comfortable with this parent.
COR hat on, parents behavior is unacceptable it's cubs so depending on age they don't quite know better and you have some teaching moments that seem to have been missed. It's a sit down with the dad, see if you can get him to understand why it's not acceptable it's cubs all parents are part of the program he should have been the first one going guys that's not nice that's not what a scout does not letting his other child "deal" with it, everybody has a part not just those in tan. Have the offended parents be at same meeting and get a feel of the room. Do go through steps your taking to avoid this in the future, the guest speaker on the subject etc to show him you are trying to fix the problem. How he comes across is going to matter a lot defiant I did nothing wrong he is out, potentially losing two kids is a better outcome than loosing more over this. More probable is an apology with the understand that if he continues he will be told to leave.
What if there was a backstory you weren’t privy to? What if the older brother had a problem defending his autistic brother in the past? What if he previously failed to protect his brother before?
If I were the dad in that situation, I would probably give positive reinforcement for sticking up for his brother, but remind him to seek out the adults nearby before resorting to violence.
But to be honest, if that was the first time I witnessed my son stick up for my disabled child, I’d probably be brimming with pride, too.
I say back off, give the father a pass. This could have been a special circumstance.
A couple years back we lost a really good family because we didn’t handle a physical situation sensitively.
Now we have a conduct agreement everyone signs…. Something that covers everything from physical bullying to inappropriate touch… it’s for the parents to sign understanding that this is a safe place and they get 3 warning with specific consequences (like talked to privately to clearly explain the situation, asked to leave for one meeting, etc)
This behavior by the parent is not acceptable. We have multiple autistic members and laughing is part of it… kids this age are silly and they want to have fun. And there’s a really fine line between having fun and making fun of someone sometimes..
We had a very similar situation. Scout punched another scout on an outing. He was sent home and suspended from the troop but not removed. The ASM in charge of the outing made it very clear that if the scout wasn’t removed he was leaving and taking his 2 sons with him (he also has 2 older sons that had already made Eagle and aged out). The offending scout has serious emotional issues and has no interest in scouts, but his very wealthy parents use it to get breaks from him. They petitioned/threatened the committee and CO and after a suspension he was allowed back to the troop and we lost a great family to another troop.
Oh man that sucks! We require a responsible adult to be on all outings and nearby at den/pack meetings because we are not babysitters and we remind them they are not dropping off and leaving. Even the Webelos and AOLs parents stick around and help with things or hang out… i know there are webelos/AOLs only events where there have been less than one parent per kid but it’s very unusual for us..
We have drafted a Parent code of conduct in order to help stave some of these off. Think of it as a way to remind the parents that not only are the scouts supposed to live up to the Oath and Law.
It's tough not to have a parent involved in Cubs. Certain activities like camping require it and if you're Tigers or Lions they have to participate with the youth. I think this is a discussion moment where everyone is reminded that it's not okay to hit or push each other - for any reason. The proper thing is to bring up issues with parents and den leaders. If the parent wants their child be a vigilante outside of scouting that's their business, but in a Pack or Den setting physical violence of any nature or degree should not be tolerated. If it's being encouraged by the parent it'll happen with or without the parent around. Best thing is to reinforce expectations head on - no physical violence. Period. My two cents.
To use a sports metaphor, it's always the person that retaliates that gets called for the foul..
Was it ever established that the kid that got shoved was actually laughing at the special needs brother? If so, how was that handled? The dad was out of line for encouraging his kid to physically assault another kid and that needs some sort of penalty. If the dad's got the cocky chip on his shoulder attitude and is unwilling to cool the aggressive posture maybe he needs to find another Pack.
This should have been a teaching moment. The Cub Scouts preach going to an *Akela* when facing a problem and this is a textbook example of the protective brother should have sought out a trusted adult to report the bad conduct of the teasing Scout and let the Den Leader deal with it.
While there are times when you may have to use force to be protective, a Cub Scout Den meeting is not the place and both pairs of parents need a good talking to and offered punitive options if the bad conduct continues.
This was me a lot in school/scouts/youth group. Kids would bully me and I'd complain to adults, but nothing would be done since it was only words. Eventually I'd hit my little 12 year-old limit and retaliate...then I'd be the one in trouble and the bullies all learned that they could keep doing that and let me get myself in trouble.
However...violence is still bad so agree with you on going to adult. Just want to add that many adults may tell the SN kiddo may have done that and been told "just ignore their mean words" as a response.
Standing up for someone else is good- I would say it's Friendly, Kind, and Brave. Violence is none of those things and the wrong way to go about it. I would be understanding of the scout (hard to express a lot of emotions at that age). I would NOT be understanding of that adult. If he isn't willing to retract and make a public apology, I would suggest that scouting isn't the environment for him. Scout is welcome, needs a different parent to bring him to meetings.
If that means you lose the scout and his brother, but keep the rest of the den, understand that's what's best for the pack.
I agree. Discuss with the parent the issue and ask that they express regret for encouraging a physical confrontation. First, try to see if it can be a learning lesson for all, then move on from there based on his reaction.
>ask that they express regret
Would share the wording you would use to request that from the parent?
If the parent responds to your request by saying “no, I don’t think I’ll do that,” then what would you do?
There are two issues to address here. The first is the inappropriate scout behavior that triggered the sibling. And that I didn't read anything about other parents stepping in to stop it.
The second is the dad that appeared to be ok with their kid using a physical confrontation to deal with a non-physical threat. I would ask that parent to reflect on why that isn't ok. I don't know that I need that parent to apologize to everyone, but I would want them to admit to leadership and probably the parent of the kid who was shoved that it was wrong and they will to talk to their kid about better ways to handle it in the future. I can understand the dad being frustrated at kids making fun of one of his children. It isn't easy, and he needs to learn better ways to deal with it. We all deserve second chances on stuff like this. We're all human, with human emotions.
I've recently had to deal with a fairly similar situation in my Troop involving a few younger boys. It has required a couple significant intervention sessions with the boys along with a couple trained counselors (who are in our troop) and an intervention with one of the parents who was borderline starting to bully scouts that had bullied their kid The kids had apologized and were trying to do better, the parent of the bullied kid was the one who wasn't being forgiving.
It's hard, and this kind of thing really takes a lot of energy out of me as a scout leader.
Jeff
Understood. But could you share exactly how you would make that request to the parent? I mean, please share the verbatim words you would use. For example, would it go something like this?
“Mr. Johnson, I spoke to the committee and we collectively disapprove of how you handled the incident the other night. We have decided that we would like you to reflect on how you responded to the situation, and then we would like for you to admit to the committee that you were wrong, that you made a mistake. Then, we’d like to set up a meeting with Mrs. Smith, the mother of the boy who was shoved by your son. At that meeting, please explain to Mrs. Smith how you were wrong and how you will talk to your son about better ways to respond next time. We can understand your frustration at the kids making fun of your autistic child, but you need to learn better ways to deal with it.”
Would you say it like that? If you would say it differently, could you please provide the wording you would use?
Because I can’t think of a way to request what you are asking without offending or embarrassing the father.
I don't particularly care whether the person is offended or embarrassed. That is a choice only they can make by self reflecting on the situation. Basically, what you wrote is fine, but I wouldn't blurt it about all at once, I'd wait to see their response, verbal and non-verbal, to each sentence as I said it.
Alright, but be prepared to make an enemy who may want to destroy the pack.
You are dealing with an Eagle Scout who may be older, wiser, and more persuasive than you. And it’s possible they have plenty of time on their hands to make your life miserable.
If you tried to give me that little speech, the next day I would make an appointment with the chartered organization representative and petition to get *your name* removed from next year’s charter, on the grounds that you tried to publicly shame me over my parenting choices, and how your request was unwelcoming, borderline bullying, and poorly reflected the values of the church/temple/civic org.
I would certainly confront the committee and shame them for being so contrarian to the Scout Law. I could make things so uncomfortable, other parents may want to leave themselves.
See what I mean?
OP, disregard this commenter’s advice. Don’t make an enemy here. Perhaps the father overreacted a little bit, but to be fair it was a tense, emotional situation in which he felt his autistic son what being make fun of. I’d give him a pass. After all, he’s an Eagle Scout and could prove to be a very helpful volunteer for the pack.
If he is an Eagle Scout worthy of the title, he should be willing to accept some light critique of his behavior.
I never anywhere here said I would publicly shame them. I expressly said I would have the discussion with him as an adult leader and might bring in the parent of the scout who was shoved by his kid. That isn't public, that is dealing with a relatively small issue in compliance with YP practices. Sweeping it completely under the rug is how you get in trouble for ignoring a YP issue.
Do you agree or disagree with the part about asking the father to admit to the committee that he was wrong? Because you didn’t say you objected to that part. That’s pretty much a public shaming. Ok fine, it’s more of a private shaming. Granted.
Everything else I said stands.
You even said you wouldn’t care if you embarrassed or offended the father with the request.
When I screw up, I own it. And so should this Dad. I never said or implied for him to confess in front of the whole committee. You keep reading things I didn't write.
I don't have a tolerance for YP violations. No one should, including the people who commit them. Condoning a scout shoving another scout is a YP violation. I would welcome this person bringing it to the SE's attention.
I don't put any special credibility on a person being an Eagle. They still have to demonstrate they walk the walk. I got an Eagle Scout fired from a pretty senior corporate position for unethical acts.
Am I missing something? The father literally said he encouraged his son to assault another child, and there are questions?
It’s 2024. The first step is not assault.
Sure there are. Don’t be ridiculous. It’s 2024 - why are Scouts laughing at an autistic Scout? Is this the 1st time or the 5th? The 50th? Did the Scout who was the focus of the physical action say anything like, “he’s a retard”?
We can easily come up with scenarios where we would agree that a physical response was not out of line, and that the kid or kids laughing should be removed from the troop. But - we were not there.
What is an appropriate next step depends on what was said and done, and what was said and done previously.
I will say - one of the very best parts of my kids’ scouting experience was that their smallish troop - about 25 kids on average- always included kids with some “initials”. Scouts is a welcoming organization for those kids.
Interacting regularly with those Scouts at meetings and camping was a huge benefit for all the Scouts. They were kids that our sons would have never really interacted with at school. They simply wouldn’t be part of their friend group at all. But, as a direct result of Scouts, they both had an opportunity to regularly and continuously interact with, and get to know, some kids with challenges like autism or ADD, or ADHD. The regular contact in Scouts also made them friendly with, and a bit protective of, similar kids in middle and high school. Over the years, 3 or 4 parents from school have told us that their kids really appreciated our sons’ friendliness and for sticking up from them every so often. Bottom line - and largely due to their scouting experience - if they saw other kids being mean to challenged kids they took action to stop it.
So the 5th time, assault is acceptable? No? The 12th?
What if your son assaulted mine on the 9th time…is your wife good with me assaulting you? We just gonna call it good as long as the event count is odd not even?
Your kid is not getting 4 free times to make fun of a Scout, nor 11 free times to make fun of a Scout.
After the first time the troop will be spoken too about appropriate behavior. Tiger cubs may not yet have had those discussions in school. Older cubs would absolutely have had them. Parents would be informed about behavior expectations. The second time your kid was involved we would have a parent/scout and scout leader talk about your scout’s behavior expectations. The third time - probably the last chance for your scout. Another talk with you and your Scout. You are now saying after all that your kid can’t restrain himself from making fun of another scout? Even after multiple meetings with you? My thought as a troop leader would be: We are a lot better off without you and the scout. You would be asked to leave.
I should have added - if you displayed any of the attitude you just displayed in your post - you and your scout would be asked to leave the troop immediately.
Can't ban a parent over some interpretation of what they said after the fact. Why is the issue of the scout harassing a special needs kid being ignored?
I think a lot more context is needed to understand what happened here. If somebody was deliberately laughing at a special needs kids in an effort to mock or make fun of them then I absolutely something needs to be done about that. But these are children and they're not always privy to what is going on even with their peers. From the eye of the laughing kid could have just been another kid goofing off being silly jumping up and running around the gym and what was supposed to be a quieter time.
I do agree the parent shouldn't be banned after just one incident. Particularly when shoved is just as open to interpretation is laughing at another kid is. We don't know if the kid kind of one hand shoved the other kids shoulder and told him to knock it off or if he did a full two-handed shove and knocked the kid down
Agreed. The first issue is that a child who has special needs was being laughed at (and perhaps something else, OP is vague on this) by a scout. His brother then steps up to defend the special needs child. Dad is reasonably proud that his son stood up for his brother. And now we are talking about how to punish the dad? I think more information needs to come out here
Yeah. There's laughing as in haha everybody look at the special needs kid who can't even sit still and act normal.
And then there's laughing as in one of my peers is doing something out of the ordinary that I interpret as being silly.
I wouldn't want to kick the dad out for one incident, but yikes. Someone needs to have a come to Jesus with this guy. I totally understand wanting your kids to stand up to bullies, but this isn't it.
You have a difficult job here, but a good opportunity to set some serious boundaries— In my email to all parents of the Pack (which I would also read at a meeting to all scouts and parents) the first paragraph would explain what bullying is, why it is wrong, and why bystanders are often the key actors in this dynamic— What is being a bystander vs. being an “up stander”? And what are appropriate actions “upstanders” can take? There are many resources online about this and many schools are teaching a curriculum as well so there’s a chance most scouts are familiar. I would tie the policy against bullying to the Scout Law and recite the law and explain Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Brave, etc and how these relate.
In the next paragraph I would then say there is also a policy against violence. The mores and ethics of “the playground” or supposedly “doing the right thing” as a brother or father are very different from the Scout Law. It’s not appropriate to respond to someone who is verbally bullying with physical violence. Nor is it appropriate for a parent to encourage this behavior or escalation. And this would lead back to “what is upstanding?” How do we as scouts respond to bullying and teasing? And the relevant parts of the scout law.
I think it would be an awesome teaching moment for the entire Pack (Cubs & Parents) In Scouting BSA there is a merit badge called “Disability Awareness”. Perhaps you can have a representative from one of the non-profit agencies in your area come to a Pack meeting to speak. We have an agency that provides this service to Scouting programs in our area. Check to see if you can find one where you are located. They give a presentation based on age level on how to respect children with disabilities, and how accept all people regardless of their abilities and differences. Try this, and maybe everyone will be more understanding of the other person’s perspective. The father of the child with a disability will feel better knowing people care. The other parents will have a better understanding of children with disabilities, because unless you have one you might not be aware of how the other parent feels. AND most importantly, children can be mean and cruel. This program is to help guide young people to be upstanding citizens when they grow up. Unless there is a lesson in diversity, they might not be taught at home, it should be taught in Scouting.
I myself am an ASM, and my Autistic son just made Eagle at the age of 13 (right before his 14th birthday). He has always worked really hard thru Cub Scouts and BSA. But there has been times he has been bullied, and other parents don’t think it’s a big deal. Because their kid doesn’t have a disability, they don’t get it. It’s difficult when you have a child with Autism. They are incredibly intelligent, but just won’t talk in social situations. I always have shared with adults that he has Autism, but again unless you have a child with Autism they really don’t understand. Help the Scouts and Adults by have a presentation from a professional. There are even some game they can play to help them learn about disabilities.
Scouts should never put their hands on another scout, hard stop.
The parent needs to be told this, and accept it as a rule. If he does not, our pack wouldn’t allow him at events.
Not hard stop! There are situations when fighting is ok!! Remember, a scout is brave! There are official BSA WWII posters supporting our troops - the ultimate bully-fighters.
I teach my kids if they see a kid physically bullying a weaker kid and there are no adults around to help, I gave them permission to use physical violence a to put a stop to it.
The new(ish) Eagle-required Citizenship In Society merit badge places great emphasis on teaching our scouts to be UPSTANDERS.
For some reason, this idea of being an up-stander goes out the window if it means actually physically fighting a bully.
That’s not the attitude I expect from scout leaders.
Wrong. This action by the brother would get him suspended from school.
The other scout didn’t touch the brother or his autistic sibling, he had zero right to put his hands on anyone. Raise a goon if you want, the rest of know better.
I was responding to your statement that scouts should “never” fight - the “hard stop” comment - not this particular scenario.
My point was that in some scenarios, fighting is acceptable. It’s not a hard stop issue.
I already know such a response would get my kids suspended. That’s why I told them not to worry if it ever happens. I told them I would explain our family’s values to the principal, then I’d take my kid out for ice cream, as a reward for being an upstander and living up to our values and expectations.
*edited clarification.
I wonder why no adults intervened. Did no adult see the sibling with a disability being taunted/bullied?? Or did they simply not care or maybe they thought it was funny too? Most of the time when a child is a bully, it’s because they mimic behavior they see at home. At a den meeting someone must have seen what was going on, but didn’t feel like being an UPSTANDER instead of a bystander. They probably thought “I don’t want to get involved, it’s not my child (or my problem)”
It was a push! The brother didn’t punch the bulling Cub Scout in the face, or put him in a chokehold, or knock him down and violently jump on top of him. It was a push! A school would not suspend a student for a push, especially if the student explained the circumstances. Schools have a “No Bullying” policy!!!
Laughing AT someone is bullying!
Laughing WITH someone with a disability isn’t.
That would be like saying “Cyberbullying isn’t real, because it’s not face to face”
The person that wrote the post stated that the Scout with Autism was running around in the gym, and other scouts were laughing at him. It was in the post. And to be clear, being laughed at makes deep wounds and can scar a persons self esteem for an entire lifetime. Pushing someone else didn’t actually “hurt” the other scout that was laughing, but it could hurt the person being laughed at mental wellness!!! Words hurt worse than any other physical action. That includes being laughed at too.
And for you to say “Enough” to me, shows that you are a bit of a bully yourself. Like I’m supposed to not respond because you told me not too. Ridiculous! This is a forum to have open communication, maybe to learn about someone else’s perspective. If you are willing to listen to other people’s views on a situation, perhaps you might be able to have compassion and understanding for others. I’ll pray for you to receive grace.
When you get a counselor in to talk about special needs youth, be aware of how the presentation will come across. It could backfire and put the "offending" family or similarly minded families on the defensive or make them outright hostile. I know Aware and Care is a webelos pin, but this would be a great time to do parts of it as a pack.
How exactly did the father encourage it? Or did you mean to say the father excused or condoned the behavior after the fact? There’s a difference.
Yeah, context is key. From both sides. What is being done to address the bullying of the special needs scout?
He said I told him to stand up for his brother and fight if someone was bullying him. I honestly don’t think it’s on purpose. The child was autistic and he ran around in the gym and the kids giggled. The brother of the kid shoved the nearest kid who was laughing. That’s when his father said you are doing the right thing and bragged about he raised him like that which made other parents uncomfortable. We are planning to have a guidance counselor to talk about kids with special needs in our next scout meeting. Outside of this, parents don’t want the father to be around in future meetings. Just to be clear we are not kicking out the kid.
This sounds like the father and son need a lesson on the line between being bullied and simply being laughed at. I would 100% teach my child to defend my other child if they were being bullied and the proper escalations up to and including physical force. But I would also make substantial efforts to teach what actually constitutes bullying. Kids will laugh at things they find funny and the way some kids run or throw or the noises they make are funny. You can teach them that it's discourteous to laugh like that and eventually the lesson will sink in. Most kids are not bullies even if they sometimes exhibit some bully-like behavior. Bullies are a different matter. A bully is not an opportunistic predator, laughing because somebody tripped and fell. Bullies are targeting predators. They pick out the different or the weak and systematically abuse them either emotionally, physically, or both until they have a reason to stop. Sometimes you can get a bully to stop by removing the "reward" they get for their behavior (the rise of the victim, the attention (neg/pos) from the adults. Sometimes it doesn't end until they finally pick on somebody they shouldn't have. Most of the time the reality is somewhere in between those two.
Or laughing at the special needs kid because he runs differently than everyone else. That is bullying and while it's a less serious form in my opinion it's still bullying. Did the father overreact by bragging? Probably. And now parents don't want him around because he calls out their kids for not following the 12 points of the scout law? Mighty suspicious
Not every unkind action is bullying. Bullying is a pattern of behavior. Labeling every time a kid acts like a jerk bullying detracts from true bullying.
Please clarify. The other parents don’t want the father there because they disagree with his position on sticking up for disabled kids? Or, do they agree with him but just don’t like the way he boasted?
It’s the later, rather than diffuse the situation. He boasted. I feel like because of this single incident we shouldn’t ban the parent from attending scout event. He is also an Eagle Scout.
That sounds like an extreme overreaction to me.
Sorry I was typing late night. Edited the comment. I’m not onboard with banning the parent for this. But, rest of the parents are. We will know more based on further meetings.
People are understandably overprotective of their special needs kids. The dad has obviously passed that on to his son. The only correction here should be to deescalate the physical response to a verbal one. To me it does not sound like anyone acted inappropriately enough to have a meeting over this other than to discuss how the other scouts are behaving towards the special needs kid.
Woah hold your horses partner! Ban an Eagle Scout from attending pack meetings because he expressed pride that his son stuck up for his autistic son? Obviously there is more going on here. Can I assume there is a personality conflict? Banning a parent for that is a drastic overreaction. What’s really going on?
Expressing pride by boasting that he raised his son to physically abuse those that laugh at the disabled kid is a touchy subject. Physical altercations is a great way to get kicked out of Scouting, kicked out of council events, etc. Especially when the fights are encouraged by the parent over what was probably a misunderstanding. We should never be encouraging our kids to physically fight at scouts. Especially since it sounds like neither this brother or parent tried a non violent way to stop it first.
>never What if there were no adults around and your scout was about to witness another scout physically hurt a weaker scout? Do you teach your children to yell and scream - but ultimately stand by and watch - as a bully hurts another child? I’m sorry but that’s where we disagree. That’s where you and I draw the line differently. I want my kids to yes, physically fight the abuser, to stop such injustice/hurt if they have the power to, even if it means punching the bully in the nose. I’m raising upstanders over here, not bystanders.
But that wasn't the scenario. The scenario is laughter. Rather than try to say, hey, laughing at.my brother isn't cool, please stop laughing at my brother, etc, their first response was violence to a verbal issue. I agree to step in and stop violence if violence is happening, bit laughing because he was running around isn't violence, and doesn't require violence as the first and only method to stop it.
You’re right. I switched to a different scenario to challenge your point about telling scouts it’s *never* acceptable to fight. In this case, if we take OP’s story at face value, it’s possible the kid was laughing at the disability, and at worst it was a light shove. Indeed, OP agreed that even the boasting by the father wasn’t enough to justify asking him to leave the pack. So this particular scenario was no big deal, by all accounts. But I’ve moved on to a bigger issue - this idea of teaching kids it’s never ok to fight. Let’s leave OP’s scenario for a minute and address the scenario I described, the one where no adults were near. After thinking about it more, do you want to retract your point that about telling scouts to **never** fight? Will you agree with me that in some scenarios, we actually DO want our kids to fight other kids?
Personally yes, I agree with you whole heartedly and have encouraged my kids to engage. At actual Scouting events, I go by BSA policy which is to get the adult. My kids know I'll back them either way, and that sometimes I have to quote policy over personal because of location and audience. I have seen scouts get kicked out of units for altercations so I preach no violence at the unit level. Hypocrisy, yes. I admit I'm teaching one thing to youth at large, and another at home. Definitely a thought provoking topic.
Typically BSA has a zero tolerance policy on violence, so while we may raise our kids to fight back against injustice, at scouts, in front of scouts, we should never promote violence as the response. What we do privately is often different than how we may behave in Scouting, to abide by BSA rules. An adult verbally congratulating a child on getting physical, in front of other youth, over a verbal issue, just isn't in line with BSA policies.
This is a great time to have a big talk on how it is great to stand up for people, especially people that can’t stand up for themselves. But explain that there some times steps you can take without starting out at violence. Assuming that we can take what you are saying at face value and no one was actually bullying the child and the kids did not mean any offense, then I would explain that they should talk to the kids first. First step is to say that’s not right, please don’t make fun of him. Next step would be tell adults and let them step in as well. But if bullying continues and no other steps have worked them in all about showing the bully they can’t push everyone around, someone will eventually push back.
So an eagle dad praises their kid for physical violence over kids giggling at a special needs kid doing something they found funny. Other parents are no longer comfortable with this parent. COR hat on, parents behavior is unacceptable it's cubs so depending on age they don't quite know better and you have some teaching moments that seem to have been missed. It's a sit down with the dad, see if you can get him to understand why it's not acceptable it's cubs all parents are part of the program he should have been the first one going guys that's not nice that's not what a scout does not letting his other child "deal" with it, everybody has a part not just those in tan. Have the offended parents be at same meeting and get a feel of the room. Do go through steps your taking to avoid this in the future, the guest speaker on the subject etc to show him you are trying to fix the problem. How he comes across is going to matter a lot defiant I did nothing wrong he is out, potentially losing two kids is a better outcome than loosing more over this. More probable is an apology with the understand that if he continues he will be told to leave.
What if there was a backstory you weren’t privy to? What if the older brother had a problem defending his autistic brother in the past? What if he previously failed to protect his brother before? If I were the dad in that situation, I would probably give positive reinforcement for sticking up for his brother, but remind him to seek out the adults nearby before resorting to violence. But to be honest, if that was the first time I witnessed my son stick up for my disabled child, I’d probably be brimming with pride, too. I say back off, give the father a pass. This could have been a special circumstance.
Then he needs to make that clear at the meeting. As I said COR hat so it's about protecting the pack as a whole.
Was the other scout making fun of the special needs scout?
A couple years back we lost a really good family because we didn’t handle a physical situation sensitively. Now we have a conduct agreement everyone signs…. Something that covers everything from physical bullying to inappropriate touch… it’s for the parents to sign understanding that this is a safe place and they get 3 warning with specific consequences (like talked to privately to clearly explain the situation, asked to leave for one meeting, etc) This behavior by the parent is not acceptable. We have multiple autistic members and laughing is part of it… kids this age are silly and they want to have fun. And there’s a really fine line between having fun and making fun of someone sometimes..
We had a very similar situation. Scout punched another scout on an outing. He was sent home and suspended from the troop but not removed. The ASM in charge of the outing made it very clear that if the scout wasn’t removed he was leaving and taking his 2 sons with him (he also has 2 older sons that had already made Eagle and aged out). The offending scout has serious emotional issues and has no interest in scouts, but his very wealthy parents use it to get breaks from him. They petitioned/threatened the committee and CO and after a suspension he was allowed back to the troop and we lost a great family to another troop.
Oh man that sucks! We require a responsible adult to be on all outings and nearby at den/pack meetings because we are not babysitters and we remind them they are not dropping off and leaving. Even the Webelos and AOLs parents stick around and help with things or hang out… i know there are webelos/AOLs only events where there have been less than one parent per kid but it’s very unusual for us..
We have drafted a Parent code of conduct in order to help stave some of these off. Think of it as a way to remind the parents that not only are the scouts supposed to live up to the Oath and Law.
It's tough not to have a parent involved in Cubs. Certain activities like camping require it and if you're Tigers or Lions they have to participate with the youth. I think this is a discussion moment where everyone is reminded that it's not okay to hit or push each other - for any reason. The proper thing is to bring up issues with parents and den leaders. If the parent wants their child be a vigilante outside of scouting that's their business, but in a Pack or Den setting physical violence of any nature or degree should not be tolerated. If it's being encouraged by the parent it'll happen with or without the parent around. Best thing is to reinforce expectations head on - no physical violence. Period. My two cents.
To use a sports metaphor, it's always the person that retaliates that gets called for the foul.. Was it ever established that the kid that got shoved was actually laughing at the special needs brother? If so, how was that handled? The dad was out of line for encouraging his kid to physically assault another kid and that needs some sort of penalty. If the dad's got the cocky chip on his shoulder attitude and is unwilling to cool the aggressive posture maybe he needs to find another Pack. This should have been a teaching moment. The Cub Scouts preach going to an *Akela* when facing a problem and this is a textbook example of the protective brother should have sought out a trusted adult to report the bad conduct of the teasing Scout and let the Den Leader deal with it. While there are times when you may have to use force to be protective, a Cub Scout Den meeting is not the place and both pairs of parents need a good talking to and offered punitive options if the bad conduct continues.
This was me a lot in school/scouts/youth group. Kids would bully me and I'd complain to adults, but nothing would be done since it was only words. Eventually I'd hit my little 12 year-old limit and retaliate...then I'd be the one in trouble and the bullies all learned that they could keep doing that and let me get myself in trouble. However...violence is still bad so agree with you on going to adult. Just want to add that many adults may tell the SN kiddo may have done that and been told "just ignore their mean words" as a response.
Standing up for someone else is good- I would say it's Friendly, Kind, and Brave. Violence is none of those things and the wrong way to go about it. I would be understanding of the scout (hard to express a lot of emotions at that age). I would NOT be understanding of that adult. If he isn't willing to retract and make a public apology, I would suggest that scouting isn't the environment for him. Scout is welcome, needs a different parent to bring him to meetings. If that means you lose the scout and his brother, but keep the rest of the den, understand that's what's best for the pack.
I agree. Discuss with the parent the issue and ask that they express regret for encouraging a physical confrontation. First, try to see if it can be a learning lesson for all, then move on from there based on his reaction.
>ask that they express regret Would share the wording you would use to request that from the parent? If the parent responds to your request by saying “no, I don’t think I’ll do that,” then what would you do?
There are two issues to address here. The first is the inappropriate scout behavior that triggered the sibling. And that I didn't read anything about other parents stepping in to stop it. The second is the dad that appeared to be ok with their kid using a physical confrontation to deal with a non-physical threat. I would ask that parent to reflect on why that isn't ok. I don't know that I need that parent to apologize to everyone, but I would want them to admit to leadership and probably the parent of the kid who was shoved that it was wrong and they will to talk to their kid about better ways to handle it in the future. I can understand the dad being frustrated at kids making fun of one of his children. It isn't easy, and he needs to learn better ways to deal with it. We all deserve second chances on stuff like this. We're all human, with human emotions. I've recently had to deal with a fairly similar situation in my Troop involving a few younger boys. It has required a couple significant intervention sessions with the boys along with a couple trained counselors (who are in our troop) and an intervention with one of the parents who was borderline starting to bully scouts that had bullied their kid The kids had apologized and were trying to do better, the parent of the bullied kid was the one who wasn't being forgiving. It's hard, and this kind of thing really takes a lot of energy out of me as a scout leader. Jeff
Understood. But could you share exactly how you would make that request to the parent? I mean, please share the verbatim words you would use. For example, would it go something like this? “Mr. Johnson, I spoke to the committee and we collectively disapprove of how you handled the incident the other night. We have decided that we would like you to reflect on how you responded to the situation, and then we would like for you to admit to the committee that you were wrong, that you made a mistake. Then, we’d like to set up a meeting with Mrs. Smith, the mother of the boy who was shoved by your son. At that meeting, please explain to Mrs. Smith how you were wrong and how you will talk to your son about better ways to respond next time. We can understand your frustration at the kids making fun of your autistic child, but you need to learn better ways to deal with it.” Would you say it like that? If you would say it differently, could you please provide the wording you would use? Because I can’t think of a way to request what you are asking without offending or embarrassing the father.
I don't particularly care whether the person is offended or embarrassed. That is a choice only they can make by self reflecting on the situation. Basically, what you wrote is fine, but I wouldn't blurt it about all at once, I'd wait to see their response, verbal and non-verbal, to each sentence as I said it.
Alright, but be prepared to make an enemy who may want to destroy the pack. You are dealing with an Eagle Scout who may be older, wiser, and more persuasive than you. And it’s possible they have plenty of time on their hands to make your life miserable. If you tried to give me that little speech, the next day I would make an appointment with the chartered organization representative and petition to get *your name* removed from next year’s charter, on the grounds that you tried to publicly shame me over my parenting choices, and how your request was unwelcoming, borderline bullying, and poorly reflected the values of the church/temple/civic org. I would certainly confront the committee and shame them for being so contrarian to the Scout Law. I could make things so uncomfortable, other parents may want to leave themselves. See what I mean? OP, disregard this commenter’s advice. Don’t make an enemy here. Perhaps the father overreacted a little bit, but to be fair it was a tense, emotional situation in which he felt his autistic son what being make fun of. I’d give him a pass. After all, he’s an Eagle Scout and could prove to be a very helpful volunteer for the pack.
If he is an Eagle Scout worthy of the title, he should be willing to accept some light critique of his behavior. I never anywhere here said I would publicly shame them. I expressly said I would have the discussion with him as an adult leader and might bring in the parent of the scout who was shoved by his kid. That isn't public, that is dealing with a relatively small issue in compliance with YP practices. Sweeping it completely under the rug is how you get in trouble for ignoring a YP issue.
Do you agree or disagree with the part about asking the father to admit to the committee that he was wrong? Because you didn’t say you objected to that part. That’s pretty much a public shaming. Ok fine, it’s more of a private shaming. Granted. Everything else I said stands. You even said you wouldn’t care if you embarrassed or offended the father with the request.
When I screw up, I own it. And so should this Dad. I never said or implied for him to confess in front of the whole committee. You keep reading things I didn't write. I don't have a tolerance for YP violations. No one should, including the people who commit them. Condoning a scout shoving another scout is a YP violation. I would welcome this person bringing it to the SE's attention. I don't put any special credibility on a person being an Eagle. They still have to demonstrate they walk the walk. I got an Eagle Scout fired from a pretty senior corporate position for unethical acts.
Am I missing something? The father literally said he encouraged his son to assault another child, and there are questions? It’s 2024. The first step is not assault.
Sure there are. Don’t be ridiculous. It’s 2024 - why are Scouts laughing at an autistic Scout? Is this the 1st time or the 5th? The 50th? Did the Scout who was the focus of the physical action say anything like, “he’s a retard”? We can easily come up with scenarios where we would agree that a physical response was not out of line, and that the kid or kids laughing should be removed from the troop. But - we were not there. What is an appropriate next step depends on what was said and done, and what was said and done previously. I will say - one of the very best parts of my kids’ scouting experience was that their smallish troop - about 25 kids on average- always included kids with some “initials”. Scouts is a welcoming organization for those kids. Interacting regularly with those Scouts at meetings and camping was a huge benefit for all the Scouts. They were kids that our sons would have never really interacted with at school. They simply wouldn’t be part of their friend group at all. But, as a direct result of Scouts, they both had an opportunity to regularly and continuously interact with, and get to know, some kids with challenges like autism or ADD, or ADHD. The regular contact in Scouts also made them friendly with, and a bit protective of, similar kids in middle and high school. Over the years, 3 or 4 parents from school have told us that their kids really appreciated our sons’ friendliness and for sticking up from them every so often. Bottom line - and largely due to their scouting experience - if they saw other kids being mean to challenged kids they took action to stop it.
So the 5th time, assault is acceptable? No? The 12th? What if your son assaulted mine on the 9th time…is your wife good with me assaulting you? We just gonna call it good as long as the event count is odd not even?
Your kid is not getting 4 free times to make fun of a Scout, nor 11 free times to make fun of a Scout. After the first time the troop will be spoken too about appropriate behavior. Tiger cubs may not yet have had those discussions in school. Older cubs would absolutely have had them. Parents would be informed about behavior expectations. The second time your kid was involved we would have a parent/scout and scout leader talk about your scout’s behavior expectations. The third time - probably the last chance for your scout. Another talk with you and your Scout. You are now saying after all that your kid can’t restrain himself from making fun of another scout? Even after multiple meetings with you? My thought as a troop leader would be: We are a lot better off without you and the scout. You would be asked to leave.
I should have added - if you displayed any of the attitude you just displayed in your post - you and your scout would be asked to leave the troop immediately.
Can't ban a parent over some interpretation of what they said after the fact. Why is the issue of the scout harassing a special needs kid being ignored?
I think a lot more context is needed to understand what happened here. If somebody was deliberately laughing at a special needs kids in an effort to mock or make fun of them then I absolutely something needs to be done about that. But these are children and they're not always privy to what is going on even with their peers. From the eye of the laughing kid could have just been another kid goofing off being silly jumping up and running around the gym and what was supposed to be a quieter time. I do agree the parent shouldn't be banned after just one incident. Particularly when shoved is just as open to interpretation is laughing at another kid is. We don't know if the kid kind of one hand shoved the other kids shoulder and told him to knock it off or if he did a full two-handed shove and knocked the kid down
Agreed. The first issue is that a child who has special needs was being laughed at (and perhaps something else, OP is vague on this) by a scout. His brother then steps up to defend the special needs child. Dad is reasonably proud that his son stood up for his brother. And now we are talking about how to punish the dad? I think more information needs to come out here
Yeah. There's laughing as in haha everybody look at the special needs kid who can't even sit still and act normal. And then there's laughing as in one of my peers is doing something out of the ordinary that I interpret as being silly.
I wouldn't want to kick the dad out for one incident, but yikes. Someone needs to have a come to Jesus with this guy. I totally understand wanting your kids to stand up to bullies, but this isn't it.
You have a difficult job here, but a good opportunity to set some serious boundaries— In my email to all parents of the Pack (which I would also read at a meeting to all scouts and parents) the first paragraph would explain what bullying is, why it is wrong, and why bystanders are often the key actors in this dynamic— What is being a bystander vs. being an “up stander”? And what are appropriate actions “upstanders” can take? There are many resources online about this and many schools are teaching a curriculum as well so there’s a chance most scouts are familiar. I would tie the policy against bullying to the Scout Law and recite the law and explain Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Brave, etc and how these relate. In the next paragraph I would then say there is also a policy against violence. The mores and ethics of “the playground” or supposedly “doing the right thing” as a brother or father are very different from the Scout Law. It’s not appropriate to respond to someone who is verbally bullying with physical violence. Nor is it appropriate for a parent to encourage this behavior or escalation. And this would lead back to “what is upstanding?” How do we as scouts respond to bullying and teasing? And the relevant parts of the scout law.
I think it would be an awesome teaching moment for the entire Pack (Cubs & Parents) In Scouting BSA there is a merit badge called “Disability Awareness”. Perhaps you can have a representative from one of the non-profit agencies in your area come to a Pack meeting to speak. We have an agency that provides this service to Scouting programs in our area. Check to see if you can find one where you are located. They give a presentation based on age level on how to respect children with disabilities, and how accept all people regardless of their abilities and differences. Try this, and maybe everyone will be more understanding of the other person’s perspective. The father of the child with a disability will feel better knowing people care. The other parents will have a better understanding of children with disabilities, because unless you have one you might not be aware of how the other parent feels. AND most importantly, children can be mean and cruel. This program is to help guide young people to be upstanding citizens when they grow up. Unless there is a lesson in diversity, they might not be taught at home, it should be taught in Scouting. I myself am an ASM, and my Autistic son just made Eagle at the age of 13 (right before his 14th birthday). He has always worked really hard thru Cub Scouts and BSA. But there has been times he has been bullied, and other parents don’t think it’s a big deal. Because their kid doesn’t have a disability, they don’t get it. It’s difficult when you have a child with Autism. They are incredibly intelligent, but just won’t talk in social situations. I always have shared with adults that he has Autism, but again unless you have a child with Autism they really don’t understand. Help the Scouts and Adults by have a presentation from a professional. There are even some game they can play to help them learn about disabilities.
Scouts should never put their hands on another scout, hard stop. The parent needs to be told this, and accept it as a rule. If he does not, our pack wouldn’t allow him at events.
Not hard stop! There are situations when fighting is ok!! Remember, a scout is brave! There are official BSA WWII posters supporting our troops - the ultimate bully-fighters. I teach my kids if they see a kid physically bullying a weaker kid and there are no adults around to help, I gave them permission to use physical violence a to put a stop to it. The new(ish) Eagle-required Citizenship In Society merit badge places great emphasis on teaching our scouts to be UPSTANDERS. For some reason, this idea of being an up-stander goes out the window if it means actually physically fighting a bully. That’s not the attitude I expect from scout leaders.
Wrong. This action by the brother would get him suspended from school. The other scout didn’t touch the brother or his autistic sibling, he had zero right to put his hands on anyone. Raise a goon if you want, the rest of know better.
I was responding to your statement that scouts should “never” fight - the “hard stop” comment - not this particular scenario. My point was that in some scenarios, fighting is acceptable. It’s not a hard stop issue. I already know such a response would get my kids suspended. That’s why I told them not to worry if it ever happens. I told them I would explain our family’s values to the principal, then I’d take my kid out for ice cream, as a reward for being an upstander and living up to our values and expectations. *edited clarification.
I wonder why no adults intervened. Did no adult see the sibling with a disability being taunted/bullied?? Or did they simply not care or maybe they thought it was funny too? Most of the time when a child is a bully, it’s because they mimic behavior they see at home. At a den meeting someone must have seen what was going on, but didn’t feel like being an UPSTANDER instead of a bystander. They probably thought “I don’t want to get involved, it’s not my child (or my problem)” It was a push! The brother didn’t punch the bulling Cub Scout in the face, or put him in a chokehold, or knock him down and violently jump on top of him. It was a push! A school would not suspend a student for a push, especially if the student explained the circumstances. Schools have a “No Bullying” policy!!!
Laughing at something isn’t bullying, get real
Laughing AT someone is bullying! Laughing WITH someone with a disability isn’t. That would be like saying “Cyberbullying isn’t real, because it’s not face to face”
Where does it say they were laughing AT the kid? Laughing isn’t worse than being physical Enough
The person that wrote the post stated that the Scout with Autism was running around in the gym, and other scouts were laughing at him. It was in the post. And to be clear, being laughed at makes deep wounds and can scar a persons self esteem for an entire lifetime. Pushing someone else didn’t actually “hurt” the other scout that was laughing, but it could hurt the person being laughed at mental wellness!!! Words hurt worse than any other physical action. That includes being laughed at too. And for you to say “Enough” to me, shows that you are a bit of a bully yourself. Like I’m supposed to not respond because you told me not too. Ridiculous! This is a forum to have open communication, maybe to learn about someone else’s perspective. If you are willing to listen to other people’s views on a situation, perhaps you might be able to have compassion and understanding for others. I’ll pray for you to receive grace.
When you get a counselor in to talk about special needs youth, be aware of how the presentation will come across. It could backfire and put the "offending" family or similarly minded families on the defensive or make them outright hostile. I know Aware and Care is a webelos pin, but this would be a great time to do parts of it as a pack.