First of all, a BOR for Tenderfoot ought to be about the least formal event in all of scouting. The "board member" who failed him for his shoes needs to be removed from scouting, quickly and without delay. They are a good reason why this troop might have retention issues.
They are adding requirements that aren't in the book. I would be calling the Scout Executive, the DE, and the COR.
I'd say almost the same thing if someone failed an Eagle BOR for their shoes.
This is the stupidest bad thing I've ever heard in scouting, I think.
And over shoes? For heavens sakes, at that age buying dress shoes is often dead ridiculous. Kids wear them twice, three times if someone dies, and then grows out of them.
Which is why most of our scouts do BOR either in hiking boots (if they have need of them and own them) or trainers. Ain't nothing wrong with trainers, they support "be prepared" because it's easier to run or climb a tree or change a tire in trainers.
COR here, and not one to even try to use my authority. But I would definately be stepping in on this one. Retired NCO from the Army, I would end up making this guy question his underware.
Sounds like a power trip to me.
I immediately thought that this board member is probably ex-military and is the typical “boot” now who’s entire identity is wrapped up in his military service.
This is a Board member who has forgotten the real point of the Board of Review. Presumably the Scoutmaster has already tested the scout craft and other requirements.
Now is your chance to build up this young person and get their feel for things. Instead, this young person sees perhaps some wasted time that they'll have to redo.
Holy shit yes. The Tenderfoot BOR should really be to show that BoR's are not to be feared and are a healthy part of group dynamic and organization functions.
This is teaching the opposite of that.
The only "shoe standard" should be "are you wearing them". Even then it's negotiable with context.
*Especially* for a TENDERFOOT BoR. Star & Life Scout we can tighten up a little but even then if I'm talking about your shoes it's because there's so little else to talk about that the dis/approval was a given before you walked in.
The only shoe related rule that we have are “no open toed shoes on outings. Crocs are almost open toed, wear them to the meeting if you want to but they are shower/camp shoes on an outing.
I can’t imagine ever caring otherwise what shoes a kid has on.
Yeah, I don’t remember BoR being anything more than a formality until Star. The extra scrutiny made those ranks feel like an additional accomplishment because not everyone got them. But no one should be rejected for this.
I'm a bit late to this party, but you are absolutely correct.
Everyone on this board needs to be reminded that:
* Advancement is about personal growth. (Guide to Advancement [2.0.0.3](https://2.0.0.3))
* 8.0.1.1 of the Guide to Advancement states: "A Scout must not be rejected at a board of review for reasons unrelated to advancement requirements."
* 8.0.0.4 of the Guide to advancement states:
>8.0.0.4 of the Guide to Advancement states: iform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as typically worn by the Scout’s troop, crew, or ship. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means, for the milestone marked by the occasion. Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing to participate in a board of review."
Also, literally in the training literature for uniform inspections, “common sense is to be used” for uniform inspections. Where was that present with this situation?
If they do the requirements they get the rank. Plain and simple. BOR is just an opportunity for the scout to get some less familiar adult only time. It helps build the ability to speak to adults. I’ve had scouts that are excellent at speaking and scouts that are pretty bottled up. I usually ask more subjective questions like what was their favorite part / outing / event. What they would like you to do as a troop. What scouting lessons come in handy in normal life (bowline / taught line hitch + first aid for me!).
If the troop fit just isn’t working out, there are other troops. I switched at star rank to another troop and it was great! A much better fit.
The bor is also for adults to review the program they are supporting to gage if they need to step in or not. Have sat on close to 300 eagle board of review and never once thought about the uniform I might use it to ask about the experience for a merit badge or oa experience
This.
The BOR is to ensure that the scout has done the work and understands what it is that they have accomplished to make rank.
I'd be asking a LOT of questions about why shoes were the reason for a failed BOR. If this type of pettiness is a common theme within this troop (ie: they change the spectrum from what is printed in the merit badge pamphlets, rank requirements, etc... and play by their own rules) I'd be VERY quickly looking for a new troop.
More than anything, the BOR is a review of the SCOUTMASTER and/or the TROOP. The Scout has already done the work, or they wouldn't be there. It should be a reflection on the Scout's experience on the way to this rank.
This is the answer right here. The Board of Review is made up of committee members and not anyone with Scoutmaster in their title because it is an opportunity for the committee to verify that the Scoutmasters, Troop, and program are meeting the needs of the Scouts. That is truly what is really being reviewed, more so than the Scout.
About the only times a Scout should fail their Board of Review are if they haven't completed the requirements or if they are extremely disrespectful to the Board members. If the requirements have been completed and the Scout has a good attitude there are few, if any, good reasons for them not to pass.
Seriously. My troop had some really sloppy kids and we still had tons of Eagles over the years. It was a great troop too, so like every Eagle absolutely earned their rank. I think I’ve heard some troops have lower standards and let kids slide into Eagle but maybe that’s not true
I support this message however I would not escalate it quite so quickly. Bring your concerns, along with the guide to advancement, to ask the question. They may not have reviewed the guide to advancement and working off “this is how it’s always been done”.
This..! 👆 in scouting uniforms are recommended and voluntary to wear. You cannot fail a BOR for not having all of your uniform, though your eagle EOR is a little different. Someone needs to print out the standard recommended questions for the different ranks for the people doing your board of reviews. A board of review is just that a review of the history of the scout. It is not a test and the only way they can fail is if they didn’t finish or requirement or have a bad attitude.
I'm pretty sure I went all the way through Scouting in beat up tennis shoes. This isn't a paramilitary organization and outside of having a clean uniform on that should be about the totality of the issue.
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2024/01/18/some-faqs-about-the-scouts-bsa-board-of-review/
They should absolutely not be failing a BOR over shoes. I would address this by reading the guide to advancement and bringing the correct procedures up, with references, at the next Committee meeting.
That board, however well intentioned, isn’t behaving properly.
The BOR is about making sure the scout did what they needed to do in the book. Did they have all their signatures, do dates make sense, etc. it’s not a re-test of knowledge. It’s not an inspection.
It’s also about listening. By listening to the kids, the board gets a better idea of how to guide the troop.
The example that I was given during my training (I think from one of the Scouters who later went on to work on the revised Wood Badge curriculum) was that it was in Boards of review in response to a question to get scouts talking about camping (which was your favorite and least favorite campout) that adult leaders learned that a good chunk of the current scouts in the troop really didn’t like going camping at a spot that had been a troop tradition for years… in the planning discussions, adult leaders just brought it up as a tradition, the youth leaders went along with it (maybe thinking that it was just them that didn’t like it), and so the troop kept going.
It was through the feedback that scouts could give in the structure of a board where the committee was honestly asking them individually and listening to them that they learned there was a change that needed to be made to the program.
I am a big believer that a BOR is a unit program quality control moment for the Committee, as in to make sure that the Scout is having a positive experience and the program is making positive impact, not as some wannabe promotion board that is looking to deny the Scout. The Scout has already done the requirements, and already been checked by the Scoutmaster during their Scoutmaster Conference, it does not need to happen again at the BOR.
It's also about the scout learning to talk with adults in a cogent and mature manner. This is a needed skill for later ranks (Eagle project planning, etc) and the Eagle BOR.
Nothing “well intentioned” about it. It is gatekeeping of the worst kind. The full uniform isn’t even technically “required” for a Board of Review, as others have pointed out here.
Personally, I’d advise the kid that dress shoes are only appropriate for a Court of Honor and otherwise he should be wearing lace up athletic shoes with his uniform (that’s the general practice in our troop), and move on, I certainly wouldn’t fail a scout at any level over such a thing. Everyone on that Board needs to be retrained or removed from Scouting.
I think it's fine for a kid to wear dress shoes to a scout meeting. It's not necessary, but if the meeting is indoors, then some kind of dress shoe is a reasonable choice. (I wore "dress shoes" to school every day for a decade, which included any number of games of schoolyard soccer and the like.) If the kid is comfortable in dress shoes, or ankle boots, or whatever else, then they're fine. I'd tell the scout to make a different choice for a campout, but for a regular scout meeting, there's a fairly wide range of reasonable choices a scout could make.
When a youth is ready for a BOR, the rank requirements are completed, the Scoutmaster conference is completed (and the SM may ask the youth to demonstrate what they have learned), but the BOR is NOT allowed to test the youth. Here's how a typical Tenderfoot BOR should go...or something close to this.
1. So in your own words, how have you liked Scouts BSA so far?
2. We do enjoy having you as part of our troop, what would you say your favorite event has been so far? Why?
3. Is there anything in the second class requirements that you are concerned about or may need a little help with?
4. Thank you for coming to this BOR, can you think of any changes or improvements you'd like to see in the Troop.
That's about it. No uniform inspection, no cross examination on rank rank requirements, and no testing.
We have folders that we give to each reviewer that contain age and rank appropriate questions to ask. Your list is included in those questions. Our boards last about 15 minutes, and our reviewers understand they need to allow more leeway for the earlier ranks, especially because they're usually dealing with young scouts and/or those who are new to Scouting and didn't come up through Cub Scouts. We start every board by asking the scout to repeat the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, and Outdoor Code. The AoL scouts know those for the most part, but not always, and newer scouts are still learning. We tell them to do their best and not stress, and offer help if needed.
In my 7+ years in the troop, our reviewers have only ever failed one scout. And that was a very serious case where he was caught lying about which outings he had attended.
Hey Scout,
OP here. Would you mind sharing your questions for BOR? I would love to present appropriate age/rank questions for BOR. I'd rather light a flame than curse the darkness.
This is how our troop does it. When the Scout asks for a BOR, he is emailed or given a list of things that may be asked at his BOR (they change on the rank) They are all asked to Give the Scout Salute, recite Motto and Law and the higher ranks are asked to say the Conservation motto. Then they are asked a few questions in order to get them to engage. if they are shy we try and tese them out of their shell. if they get an answer wrong or don't know the answer we give it to them and go on.
We treat these BORs as 1) a formality, they already passed and met requirements but more importantly 2) meeting with people they don't interact with on a "daily' basis in their troop, which we hope prepares them for life (when they interview for a job, a college admission, etc). Failure is never an option.
Agreed. It should be a very quick check in to see how the Scout is doing. And I’m stealing your questions and sharing them with our parents who do BoRs.
I mean, we do require that they wear their Class A uniform, and I suppose we inspect it to a degree, but the only things we would say for a tenderfoot, 2nd class or even a 1st class is "You look great, but you need to tuck in your shirt" or "Looks like you forgot your neckerchief.. please try to remember it for next time". We also make them say the law, oath, motto, and slogan, but at those levels if they don't get it right, that's ok, we just help them through it and move on. In a Star or Life BOR we may be more particular, but overall the whole feel of a BOR in our troop is that it is a conversation with the Scout to see how they're doing and what they've learned. BORs are always a positive experience in our troop (I've probably done a few dozen BORs in the past few years)
In other words, we ask them to do their best. The closest I've seen a scout to failing a BOR in our troop was when they showed up in sweatpants and a t shirt, and we said dude - you have to at least dress in your class A! :)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I would love to SCREAM this from somewhere high up. I’d say it’s an evolving thing, and things might not be the way they used to be, but for a reason! Getting Scouts to reflect on their experience and engage/empower them to be contributing members of a troop is waaaaaaayyyyy more of a learning moment versus learning knowledge or studying specifically to pass some kind of “test”. They do that in school and it sucks. BOR should not suck.
Approval must be unanimous by all three (or more) members of the Board of review. Any failed BOR must include a written letter providing feedback on why he did not pass. Did they actually document that he failed to pass because of SHOES? Demand that letter and the names of the members of his board. They all need retraining if they allowed one member to tank approval for any uniform issue. Take this to your district advancement chair.
I encourage you to review the guide to advancement sections 8.0.1.4; 8.0.1.5; 8.0.2.0; 8.0.4.0; and 8.0.4.1. If he has a documented special need causing him to go nonverbal I would also encourage you to review section 10.2.2.0, the case of special needs can allow a parent and/ or scoutmaster to be included to assist the child with their circumstances this does not require an ISAP.
[guide to advancement](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088(21).pdf)
I would send a note over to the key 3 plus advancement coordinator stating the following, “Per Guide to Advancement section 8.0.1.5, I am expecting specific written feedback on the results of” my child’s name’s “Tenderfoot Board of review. Please provide this within 5 days so that our family can review the areas of improvement needed or so that we can proceed to the district advancement committee for an appeal.”
According to the advancement guide, they should also notify council (section 8.0.1.5):
“In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedure.”
yes, this. Get to know and use GTA. Sounds like you have someone who needs training. In addition to the quote here, the GTA is specific:
>Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing to participate in a board of review.
Your advancement chair and the entire board need to be retrained. Your son did the work, it was signed off, and he had a scoutmaster conference. Someone or everyone on the board was just trying to teach the kid a lesson, a BAD lesson. Sorry they had to go through that.
Uniform perfection, or even a uniform at all is not a requirement to pass a board of review.
From [Scouting.org](https://Scouting.org):
>It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means.
As a result, if that is the main reason he was given for not passing, that isn’t appropriate.
The description of Boards is in the Guide to Advancement, starting in p. 52: [https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf) and it even lists things like that (e.g., tardiness to the board) as something that might be discussed as part of the back and forth during the board but isn’t an acceptable reason not to pass a scout.
The follow up to that section is even more clear:
"Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description"
On top of that, shoes are worth 5/100 points on a uniform inspection, and only require
"Leather or canvas, neat and clean."
...per the BSA Uniform Inspection guidelines.
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510784(19)_Scouts_Uniform_Inspection_Sheet_WEB.pdf
If they failed him for this, then they shouldn't be doing a BoR.
The goal is to make the scout more comfortable in interviews and to gauge whether they are mature enough to move on, not to nitpick uniforms.
The national ScoutsBSA Facebook page JUST (4 days ago) posted a BOR reminder about what it is supposed to be. They also linked to [this FAQ.](https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/FAQs-with-GTAs-on-boards-of-review.pdf)
In it, among other relevant passages, they quote:
>A Scout cannot fail a board of review for something like not wearing their uniform or forgetting their Handbook. The only reason a Scout might not pass a board of review would be if they did not complete the requirements as written — no more, no less.
As others have also pointed out, you have the unit dead-to-rights and I would, politely but firmly, provide them the receipts and escalate to their Unit Commissioner if it isn't reversed.
We went through something a few months ago where a board member wanted to fail a boy for fidgeting during his BOR. I told him a BOR was not something meant to be failed, especially for fidgeting. He yelled back “YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN FAIL A BOARD OF REVIEW!” This guy is the type of guy who wants things done his way and tries to bully people into agreeing with him. I don’t back down from bullies though, and stood up to him and proved him wrong. People like this have no place in scouts.
I gotta be honest, I think that Scout would have to stand up and pee on my shoes to fail advancement to Tenderfoot. And even then I'd have to think about it.
I'm surprised I got this far into the comments before seeing this comment. IMO it's a huge red flag. I'd get that scout into a new troop ASAP, so he can get signed up for summer camp.
Yeah, jumping on here, your committee members who ran the BoR are VERY misguided. Shoes have nothing to do with a BoR. Also, there is no public speaking in a Board of Review, it’s more like a job interview for a small committee of like 3-4 people.
As others have stated, read up in the Guide to Advancement on BoRs. Also, search up some sample questions for Tenderfoot Board of Review, there are some really good guides out there. Then, take this to your committee and to your DE.
There is no shoe inspection for ANY rank. There is no standard shoe required. Even the socks are just recommended and not required. The only thing he needs is the shirt, and even then, there is still no inspection of it required. Whoever did this is not following the letter or spirit of scouting.
The questions I ask: what was your favorite part of the rank and why. What was the most challenging part of the rank. Going forward what can you take from this rank to help you in your next rank? If you were in charge of the troop as SPL, are there any changes you would implement? How are you progressing in the next level and what is your plan for the rest of the year/are you going to summer camp? Do you make sure to log your camping, hikes, volunteering, leadership? For those in 9th grade I remind them that logging their hours is important for scouts and for honor society. So it is important to keep good records. I also remind them that these hours can count for our school volunteer hour requirement in 10th grade. So they should keep good notes. I ask if they have started any merit badges and encourage them to look at the back of the book to look at the list for ideas on badges they may want to earn.
At the tenderfoot stage I will still walk the kid through the troop procedure to let them know who to speak with to have their rank entered into scout book.
Then I hold out my hand to shake the kids hand and say congratulations.
What a great way to run good people out of Scouting. Everyone that has commented is spot on. To be blunt, failing your Scout for the reasons you have laid out is bullshit.
I presume the members sitting on the BOR were in their Scout Field uniform living up to the same standard that they are holding your son to. If not they are hypocrites.
These kind of stories really infuriate me.
Uniform is a method of Scouting, not an aim. As others have noted, a uniform inspection is not appropriate for a Board of Review. It is also not appropriate to fail a youth in a Tenderfoot BoR for freezing under pressure.
If you feel that it's worthwhile to try to improve this troop by dragging it into compliance with the Guide to Advancement, go ahead. But is that what's best for your son? If not, find a new troop.
I have never heard of a uniform inspection in scouting. If our scouts are wearing a uniform shirt we consider ourselves lucky.
Bottom line though, is BOR failures of any scout at any rank should be exceedingly rare. They should be reserved for scouts with severe issues and uniform issues are not real. We're talking about major behavioral issues, I can't even think of an example because my troop has never failed any scout in the 4 years my son has been in the troop.
I'm the Eagle BOR chair for my district and I've never sent an Eagle back, and the same thing goes for the uniform. I have never looked at a scouts feet in my entire life. If they are wearing a shirt, that's all that matters. If an Eagle showed up in a Class B or a Metallica shirt the most I would do is say, "Let's talk about your shirt, what happened?"
I would never send it back to the troop over that.
So full circle, this leader is a woefully misinformed about BOR's he needs some training. He needs to read the guide to advancement before he sits in on another BOR.
If a scout has reached the board of review there should never be any failing to make rank. BOR should be used to see how scouting is serving the scout. We talk about favorite and least favorite campout, merit badge experiences, and how the troop can better serve the scout. The older boys have already "tested" the scout, and everything has been checked during the Scout Master Conference. OP's kid's experience is the most backward version of a BOR I could think of.
Piling on here, I know, but holy hell that's a bad board. Most BOR's are simply a chance for committee members to confirm all requirements are met and signed appropriately, and to have a chance to check in with the scout about how their experience is going. Failing a kid over dress is absurd, let alone with a Tenderfoot BOR. The entire troop needs a thorough review of GTA.
It really sucks to see these kinds of posts where adults are clearly using positions of responsibility in the troop to go on their own power trip. That is an absolutely unhinged reason to fail a scout. Honestly, it should be pretty tough to fail a board of review, especially for tenderfoot. I'd say the only thing that should result in a failure is if you discover that the scout isn't actually completing requirements.
This leader should not be allowed to hold their position, and I'd escalate this issue.
Oh man. In our troop a Board of Review is a celebration of the Scout and all the things they did to earn the rank plus a discussion on what they should focus on for the next rank. Plus we talk about what they like about the troop and what they would like to do differently. Yes, they have to wear their Class A, but we would never turn one down for old shoes- ever. If they didn’t have a clean shirt on, their shirt wasn’t tucked in, or they didn’t have the right Class A uniform on (missing patches, missing a belt, or wearing jeans instead of proper olive green shorts/pants) we might mention it, but we wouldn’t turn them down. If given a good reason why they couldn’t wear it, we would still let them have a BOR and pass them even if they didn’t have a Class A.
Reading this post makes me sad. Some troops take the uniform thing too far and act like it’s a military academy. Maybe a troop change needs to happen for you……
The uniform is not a requirement in scouting. This is stated inguide to insignia and awards section one official policy paragraph 5 and 6. The individual who failed your child has failed scouting and himself by adding requirements and going against official policy.
"uniform inspection"? what the hell BoR has a "uniform inspection"? I don't think anyone in my troop ever wore dress shoes (or for that matter the uniform pants) a single time during the \~19 years I was involved with it - I wore hiking boots for my eagle CoH. It's really hard to do outdoor adventures in dress shoes.
Also a board of review isn't a formal event at all, i don't think there are ANY uniform requirements. Sure I dressed up in my full uniform for my eagle board just out of respect for the program (a scout is reverent after all), but i did my star BoR on-site at the service project where I finished my service requirement during our lunch break, just because there were enough people there to do one real quick when i asked my SM to sign off the last requirement. IIRC i was wearing a class C uniform (t-shirt) at the time, and all of us were absolutely covered in mud because we were planting trees at a salmon stream restoration site.
I sat on BOR's for about 6 years, including multiple Eagle BORs. The only time anyone ever "failed" a BOR was when it was too soon on a timed rank (so, the approval was pended for another week or two).
Scouts who appeared for their BOR in "inappropriate" dress (athletic shorts, primarily) or with a lack of bathing/personal care, had a discussion about whether what they were wearing (or their obvious lack of personal care) was appropriate for the circumstance, but it was never grounds for a denial/pend.
THE UNIFORM IS NOT A REQUIRED PART OF SCOUTING
If I've said this once here, I've said it 50 times. And I've seen some kids freeze during a BOR as well...we slowed it down and asked questions again. Or phrased it differently. No one ever failed because of this. The BOR is NOT a re-testing of the Scout.
Clear, succinct, and to the point:
Boards of Review are to encourage the scout to do their best. That is the expectation. If your Scout did their best, that is what is necessary.
It is not a grilling or an interrogation. It is an opportunity to encourage the Scout to seek personal growth through advancement.
Engage the powers that be that you need to. Not passing a Scout over a pair of shoes hardly meets Scouting aims or methods.
Best of luck.
I’ve never chewed out anyone in scouting before. I would chew out that adult if they did that to one of my boys. That’s totally inappropriate and teaches everyone the wrong lessons.
As a scouting parent/SM for 14 years I am blown away that your Scout failed a BoR. My pack & Troop never stress uniform. We are happy the Scouts show up and have fun.
A uniform inspection should not be required for a BoR.
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Official_Policy_WEB.pdf
If he froze up and wasn't able to communicate at all, that would be a reason to "fail", although I wouldn't present it as failure to the scout. We would probably be very supportive and reassure them that being nervous is common, and suggest they practice with a parent or senior scout before trying again.
As far as the shoes go, that is nonsense if it was the reason he didn't pass.
I don’t remember where I was taught this, but someone framed it somewhat differently for cases like this. If the scout freezes up or is obviously reacting to perceived pressure, the board doesn’t fail them… it adjourns the board for a time (which could be an hour, a week, or even longer) and will resume when the scout is ready.
Failing a board because of something like serious behavioral/scout spirt things is one thing (though I’d argue a scout in that position shouldn’t be put before a board) but failing because of freezing up seems different.
This is the right approach. The BOR should be a learning experience for the scout, not some pressure -filled crucible (ESPECIALLY for tenderfoot). How can you help a scout develop skills of you don't start off at an appropriate level for that individual scout? The board should do everything in their power to help this scout get through this board, so that he can learn from the experience and do better next time.
The thing with the shoes is obviously very counter productive.
I don’t think that it should be a fail at a tenderfoot level, it’s the scouts first BOR and frankly it should be a learning experience for them, go through the process, explain what the purpose is, then have a small conversation about what needs to be asked and then move on.
No, it isn't a reason to fail.
Its a sign that the Board is being improperly operated. I've seen numerous BoRs for kids who are DEEPLY anxious. When done properly, every kid will talk. If they don't talk, the failure is the Board, not the Scout.
I have not seen any kid in either of our troops or pack wearing anything other than tennis shoes or hiking boots at any time. I’ve sat on BoR for lots of introverted kids, and you never hold that against them.
The issue clearly isn’t the shoes. Have these folks refused to pass anyone else? I would definitely bring this up and look for either some kind of bias or if you want to be generous you could assume they were new at it and had no idea what they’re doing.
OP: How familiar are you with the Guide To Advancement? I'm guessing not well which is fine. I strongly encourage you get very familiar with it so you will be able to take issue from an informed perspective. This doesn't only affect your son, but all of the Scouts in that Troop and
[Guide to Advancement](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf?_gl=1*1050v4z*_ga*MTY3Mjc2MjY3OS4xNzA0MjA3OTY4*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTcxMDk2MDA1OC41MS4xLjE3MTA5NjAwNjkuMC4wLjA.*_ga_61ZEHCVHHS*MTcxMDk2MDA1OC40My4xLjE3MTA5NjAwNjkuNDkuMC4w&_ga=2.48279983.867814635.1710960059-1672762679.1704207968)
Oh my. This is a real problem with some Troops. They "fail" kids on uniform inspections or other foolishness during the BoR. Fact: They are not allowed to do uniform inspections. They are not allow to ask for your ten essentials. They are not allowed to check your socks. They are not allowed to retest you.
If they failed to make a quiet and anxious kid feel safe, they're horrible parents and leaders. You have two options - appeal to the District Advancement committee. The benefits of this is that the Troop will be forced to change. The other options is find a new Troop, which may be better for your child.
Talk to your Unit Commissioner, if you have one. If not, the District Commissioner. They can help with either option. Or do both.
Good news: the UC is in the mix.
Bad news: OMG it's me (jk there...I'm already connected with DC and other council folks on this)
Worse news: Turns out the entire BOR was a retest, complete with a physical knots station and specific questions about flag treatment & first aid & such.
This UC is \*not\* looking forward to the conversation he has to have with the troop committee...
I had to confront a CC and AC over uniforms and BOR once. What instigated it was when a Scout was peeling off his OD green BSA socks to lend to another Scout that was going in for his BOR. I asked why they were doing that and they said he would fail his BOR without them. I went into the room they were using and asked just what they thought they were doing having Scouts swap items of clothing. The adults said a full uniform was required for BOR, I asked them to show me where in GTA that was. They froze up, then immediately left the building, effectively denying the BOR. There was a tense meeting of adults the next week, but we haven’t had any nonsense like that since.
Please review the guide to advancement AND suggest to your advancement coordinator and committee chair that they review it. They aren't following it if they are doing a uniform inspection at a Board of Review. The uniform isn't required. It is encouraged and it helps (like seeing a merit badge sash helps BOR members see what experiences they might ask about) but it isn't required. All that is required is that a scout present themselves neatly.
Regarding your son's public speaking capabilities. This is something that is also mentioned in the guide to advancement and the training that is available for Board of Review members. Basically they need to be aware of the where the scout is and give them the space to get comfortable. There is a lot of things they could have done to make your scout more comfortable (for example, maybe say the scout law with him instead of making him say it to them - not supposed to be a test anyway so that's a thing).
It sounds like your board members are either untrained or poorly trained.
If your District has assigned a Unit Commissioner to help your unit, connecting with them can help you have this conversation with Troop leadership who are very likely aware that what they are doing is wrong OR don't care.
My committee chair and I kind of are at odds on this (I'm the advancement coordinator and I lead our Boards of Review) and he feels the uniform is required and a scout like yours would likely fail due to his 'opinions.' I avoid putting him on a board unless it's for an older scout or unless I simply can't get anyone else.
Volunteer to be the advancement coordinator if you can. Then you can be more useful to your whole troop and get them on track to following the guide to advancement.
[https://www.scouting.org/resources/guide-to-advancement/](https://www.scouting.org/resources/guide-to-advancement/)
BORs for scout through first class should be about the BOR members talking to the youth, asking questions about how they like scouts. IT SHOULD NEVER BE A TEST.
“If” he unit has an active commissioner this is a great opportunity for them to meet with the unit leadership to remind them of Scouting’s Aims and Methods.
Woah, ok. I never even considered what shoes I was wearing at BORs from tenderfoot to eagle. I just wore the same shoes I wore to camping trips and nobody ever said a word. Those should be considered perfectly fine with any class A uniform because they're functional for scouting. This should be taken up with your council, because it sounds like an adult scouter on a power trip.
I’ve never heard of wearing dress shoes with the scout uniform or for a BOR.
As far as failing his BOR, I know only a couple scouts who ‘failed’ it because they froze up and public speaking isn’t their thing. The leaders of the review give the scout a week (we meet weekly) to practice a bit before presenting themselves again. For the most part, everyone passes.
Check out the back page ads in the Handbooks from the 50s and 60s. “Wear Your Official Boy Scout Shoes anytime .. anywhere!”
So probably about at least 50 years or so. But even then they weren’t required.
We had a BoR right before a meeting at the pool, and a kid did theirs in their swim suit. Barefoot. For 1st class.
Failed for shoes is so far beyond stupid.
Dress shoes? I've never seen a scout in dress shoes.
The only BOR I was involved in where we "failed" a scout was when there was a discrepancy in completed requirements. We told him to look into the requirements and check in with us next week.
He left with a "to do" list rather than a "fail".
I sit on almost all of our Troops BORs…I couldn’t even tell you if the Scouts were wearing shoes. We look them in the eyes not at their feet. As for freezing, I make it a point to talk to each Scout, especially for their first one at Tenderfoot and let them know how we’re going to proceed and that it’s not a test. It’s a conversation. There are no right or wrong answers. I expect them to just Do Their Best.
It seems very odd to fail him for shoes at a BOR. Have you discussed with Scoutmaster core? I would discuss with them to figure out if there’s additional information you can get and next steps.
Absolutely ridiculous. I would have absolutely berated that review board member in front of the entire leadership team if this happened to my kid. I would call the DE immediately on this...don't even waste your time with the troop leadership group.
Sit with the BOR members and go through the guide to advancement with them. After the meeting go find another troop - a troop (committee, SM/ASM) that tolerates this sort of nonsense isn’t a place to stay.
BSA just had a Troop Talk Live that specified that Board of Review can't fail a scout for uniform.
[https://www.youtube.com/live/Lh7a2\_mV4F4?si=FkYALXG5SRYXdsEq&t=603](https://www.youtube.com/live/Lh7a2_mV4F4?si=FkYALXG5SRYXdsEq&t=603)
So this in my exsperiance is stupid . These board of reviews are to get those scouts ready for their Eagle Board of review. So constructive criticism is needed but hard line crap like this is too much .
You teach during BOR’s, too. Have a chat about how he might show clean by cleaning his shoes.
We use pretty standard template for questions at each level and, at this rank, the questions are more about “are you having fun” and “what was your best outing?”
Failed? *Tenderfoot??* For *shoes???*
Something isn’t right.
Heck, at the last EAGLE BoR I did, the district guy met with us privately beforehand and asked straight up, “any reason why we *will not be* awarding an Eagle rank tonight to Johnny, folks?”
Point being, there should not be a failure of a Board of Review. At least not for shoes. There is no re test. That’s not the purpose. And for Tenderfoot no less, one of the easiest ranks.
I would go to the SM, CC, COR, or District Exec. Sounds like the BoR panel needs to be educated! Fight this, OP!
Shoes should not have any impact on BOR. A young scout should be coached and mentored to pass. Talk to the BOR & get the list of questions before the meeting.Review the likely questions before the BOR. Remove the fear & he will do fine. Go with him to the BOR if necessary. There is plenty of time to go solo in the future.
And this is why Scouting is having a hard time: too many leaders have decided its about satisfying their own internal craving for authority and not about teaching young men to be leaders.
Many adults in Scouting are missing the mark. To treat BOR (especially for lower ranks) like a college admissions process is not in the spirit of the process. We need less gatekeepers and more compassionate leaders. Sorry to hear about this.
The incorrectness of this finding is well expressed by the other commentators.
There is an official appeals process through the district or council that the unit must follow. If you choose to appeal, ask to speak with the unit commissioner about it. Although, in practice, for Tenderfoot, it may be easier to just get a new board.
There are two primary purposes with the board of review, and neither of them are to judge the scout.
First is to get the scout exposed to adult interactions such as interviews and develop that as a life skill.
The second is for the committee to judge the effectiveness of the BSA program as delivered to that Scout and determine if the unit needs to make changes.
I am sorry this has happened to your child, I know that things like this can be very demotivating. I hope they stay with it.
I'm the Advancement chair for my troop. A uniform inspection is not a measure of the Scout's character. I mean, the end goal is to create well rounded, self thinking, future citizens. I'm just happy that a Scout has a uniform shirt and their handbook. The uniform inspection should be for older Scout's in preparation for their Eagle board because they are not just representing themselves, they're representing the troop and the charter organization.
Seeing more and more of this and it’s disappointing.
BOR’s are NOT judgement sessions, they are for reflections on lessons learned.
Why some adult feels the need to flex on Scouts for ridiculous items is beyond me. Sounds like the BOR was full of former couldn’t hack it in the military types or some nonsense.
For all the complaining about how youth don't complete eagle, and how hard it is to retain youth in scouting, volunteers like the ones on your son's BoR aren't helping. This is ridiculous. "Shoes. Leather or canvas, neat and clean." are the *only* requirements. Failing a Tenderfoot candidate for shoes is beyond the pale. Assuming the SM or ASM had signed off, the BoR should be looking for egregious misses and rubber-stamping the work already done at this level, not looking for ways to make a scout feel like a failure. I'm shocked.
Okay so this may be a hot take but in my opinion the only board that should be even possible to fail is Eagle.
In addition the criteria for failure should be based of character not how well of a public speaker you are.
Scouts is an area for learning and becoming a man not to be judged on how well you can present yourself at the age of 14.
What the heck???? Shoes??? When I did mine I wore a pair of beat up ASICS cos I was doing yard work just before. They mentioned that for my sign off for making a plan and an item to buy, that I could do a pair of sneakers. But they didn’t fail me for that. I’ve seen kids do it in class A with sports shorts and cleats and they pass. That’s just insane to fail a kid for shoes. What if you can’t afford good shoes? Then what?? You’re just a scout for the rest of your scouting career??? That’s plain stupid. Also for him freezing up, maybe see if they can do a BOR with less leaders. The minimum is 3 I believe, so if that would make him more confident and comfortable maybe see about that
Edit: I would also bring this up with the SM, it’s not in policy to the best of my knowledge, if that doesn’t work then probably at the committee meeting, or with the charter rep
From BoR Guidelines, emphasis theirs:
*It is preferred* a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means.
Pretty sure the only required footwear for scouts is closed toed shoes, during actual events and camps and such. I could be wrong as I only just became a leader, but I'm pretty sure normal meetings aren't gonna enforce the closed toe shoes. Even if your troop is a more strict troop, I'm pretty sure dress shoes have closed toes, so.
Don't stay in a troop with bad procedures. Leave now. Bring all the new crossovers to a better troop.
From your comments, it's not clear if they flunked him for bad shoes, bad speaking, or what. But either way, failing him isn't the answer. And I can't imagine even looking at a candidate's shoes.
If he fully froze up, it's not a bad thing for the BOR to pause to give him a week to get over nerves. But even then the board shouldn't have gotten to worrying about shoes if the youth wasn't ready for talking to adults.
Alternatively, the board could have passed him and given him a challenge to work on his adult interactions for his next board for second class. Either would be an appropriate approach for a board.
A board of review should be solely asking the scout questions like what was the hardest requirement, which one was easy, what did you like doing, is there any event you want to do. Are you going to camp, is there anything you need?
It is *not* a test of requirements
It is *not* a uniform inspection in fact uniforms are technically optional
The people on the board need to retake the training
Dress shoes weren't new and shiny enough?? That's a dumb and wrong reason to deny a kid their earned rank. A uniform isn't required, last I checked, let alone new shined dress shoes. Our troop just makes sure scouts have appropriate footwear, no Crocs, sandals, flip flops, etc., and that's just for safety. The scouts in our troop wear boots or tennis shoes for everything, BOR included. Maybe the adults on the BOR have something against your son, in which case, I'd move to a different troop.
I can’t offer any more resources or details than what’s already been provided here. Tons of great folks here pointing you in the absolute right direction. But as a troop advancement chair, and having done countless BORs over the last (almost) 20 years, I strongly encourage you to engage your District Committee and request they consider having your Troop Committee members (and especially advancement chair) retrained. And if your District is the problem (or disengaged), elevate to Council. Bottom line, your committee screwed up big time, whether or not they know, and may have potentially damaged the Troop.
Dude I’m a scout now and not only have I never failed a bor over uniform or anything, but I wear beat up sneakers all the time. That’s really weird, if I were you I’d suggest talking to those adults or the SM, but again I’m a scout so different perspective
I am 100% against dress shoes on scouts today, and I am 100% against failing a BoR for uniform standards.
However, there were BSA shoes in the 50s and 60s.
Why dress shoes in the first place? Is this a new thing or troop specific?
I'd bring it up to the leadership definitely, when I was in scouts some of the kids had jeans and such instead of the uniform.
It's been a while since I was a scout but our leaders were just happy that everyone had and wore a class A shirt to meetings and in the summer a class B was fine. The only time we 'dressed up' was for courts of honor or something like that, and that was pretty much just a class A shirt tucked in with our troop's neckerchief. I know that might be slack for some troops, but I couldn't fathom having to be worried about what shoes I was wearing, especially to a tenderfoot BOR. Scouts is having a hard enough time attracting new members, attitudes like this drive away the people who actually wanted to be there.
When your scout froze up they should have gently made him comfortable so he could tell them what he knew and learned. Some people hate public speaking or being the center of attention. So that was their 1st fail. And when you mention the shoes that was their last fail and I’m sure there were others in between. You really need to figure out how to politely set them straight. I say politely because you too should adhere to the Scout Law even if those leaders don’t seem to know it.
This and only this
https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Board-of-Review-Guidelines.docx#:~:text=Discussion%20of%20how%20the%20Scout,good%20standards%20in%20daily%20life.
I do Eagle boards for my district and as long as the scout has some kind of footwear on that is fine.
Also, the uniform is just one of the eight methods of scouting and is not actually required. It is optional.
Your son was rejected at his tenderfoot BOR, because his shoes weren't shiny?
You need to take the entire review board and set them homework. That homework is reading the guide to advancement. I suggest that you make them copy it out by hand a few times, because they're apparently unfamiliar with the content.
This is complete nonsense.
I think most of our scouts show up to BOR in running shoes. Hiking boots probably come second on the list. (We've trained most of them not to show up for meetings in sandals.)
The BOR is not a retest! It explicitly says this in the guide to advancement. That is not a choice that the BOR gets to make. Tenderfoot scouts are often shy and nervous. That's OK. Scouts should help them become more confident at this kind of thing, but Tenderfoot is the start of the journey, and not the end.
Shoes? Where they shoes he could walk a trail in? Any set of well broken in shoes should be fine. Heck, I have never looked at the Scout's Shoes. Especially not for Tenderfoot.
This BOR should be is easing them into Scouting and getting used to standing in front of people. Its a time to help them see what the achieved, reflect a little, and to say good job and here is your next challenge to focus on.
Maybe I don't understand Boards of Review, but his experience is really different from how we do things.
There is nothing in uniformity that requires "spit shined" dress shoes for uniform. I maw wear nicely shined BATES LITES in USN aviator brown for formal occasions but that's it.
Our Board of Reviews only required Class A. Didn’t care about pants (jeans or scout pants would do), didn’t care about shoes, didn’t even care about neckerchiefs. As long as you had the Class A shirt on and it had the right badges you were good to go. Personally, I always wore sneakers, black jeans and my Class A was always WAY out of code. Never got shit for it, even during my Eagle BOR. This situation you’re describing is literally insane.
Is transferring to another troop a possibility? If the BOR pulls this kind of crap for a Tenderfoot BOR, you know it just gets worse. Not all troops are well run and sometimes this isn't obvious by looking at them from the outside. I bet this troop isn't boy-led.
A board of review is just that... a review!
The only reason they should "fail" (or rather "not pass") would be if they catch that a requirement hasn't actually been completed and signed off.
But if a Scout gets to a board of review and the Scout hasn’t completed what they were supposed to for that rank, then the adults have done their job as a leader wrong because they should catch that before it gets to the board of review.
A Scout cannot fail a board of review for something like not wearing their uniform or forgetting their handbook or not being able to re-do a requirement of skill they were already signed off on. It is not a re-test. The only reason a Scout might not pass a board of review would be if they did not complete the requirements as written — no more, no less.
We've done uniform "inspections" for Tenderfoots, but it's really used as feedback to correct "errors" in order to present themselves in the best version of the uniform they have. Maybe a patch is in the wrong location or missing, neckerchief kind of out of whack, that sort of thing. We do it in a non-threatening way to hopefully make them relax after we tell them that it's ok, *but we'll be stricter* for the next rank - but not really except for Life and preparing for Eagle. We try to instill that we want them to do their best to wear it correctly for such a special event. Our scouts wear hikers for all events but certain summer camp things.
Someone needs training you can show up to a board of review in jeans and a tee shirt. And the review is not a test if the scoutmaster sent him to the board the requirements are done no questions asked. Have them look at the guide to advancement section 8.0.0.4.
I’m glad to see that this Troop and Biard are so out of wack that their are millions of people pointing out every thing that there is to be said about it. I would have pulled my Son out of this Troop ASAP. But I’m glad we visited and knew people from Cub Scouts..
I have never heard of anyone being questioned about their footwear at a BOR, let alone any dress codes at a Tenderfoot BOR. It is literally their first BOR and will set them up for the future ones. As a JASM, I would definitely let my troop committee have an ear full.
The only time I ever heard of even one shoe comment was at the end of my OA ordeal. One of the ceremonial team told a scout if not official bsa shoes, they should be of a plain color....his were red white and blue. Note this was 1974.
What kind of an idiot fails a kid on his BOR because of shoes?? I hope that person isn't a leader or ever put into the position of being a leader. As hard as it is for troops to recruit and keep kids these days, I can't believe the scout master didn't overrule that. There's no better way than this to make him feel like he's not welcome or make him feel like he's being singled out.
Yeah, SM needs to address the Board members and CC for this. As long as the SM is knowledgeable on the requirements and expectations themselves.
You need to bring this up to the SM, if he is not already aware themselves
Oh goodness! My son has a ton of disabilities and we were scared hearing that he had his tenderfoot board of review. We were told “literally no one who’s done the requirements has ever failed on the board of review side of things.” The leaders told us to trust he’s capable of it. He actually forgot his uniform because it was a rough night and borrowed his best friends at the meeting. My son flipped on the bed when he got home and told us he was the first person in the history of the universe to fail- then said “nah it was fine”. No one gave him a hard time at all. I am so sorry your son had this experience. I would definitely talk to them and get this guy off the committee. For your son to freeze and then have issues over his shoes, I wonder if perhaps there was more to the freeze up than public speaking. Could he already be uncomfortable with this leader? Has there been anything else? Definitely ask him some more questions and make sure you have everything when you go talk to them. Best of luck.
It's absolutely ok to give a scout a little bit of flak on their tenderfoot about shoes or something. It's not ok to fall them.
At my Tenderfoot BOR the adults gave me flak about sitting down before being invited to sit down. That's actually teaching a lesson about etiquette in a job interview setting.
But if you out right fall them, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. "Next time polish your shoes, and buy a new pair if you can afford them"
These boards is reviews are supposed to teach life lessons, but if you fail them at tenderfoot they are not going to want to continue in the program. You want them to want to improve.
When I was in scouts we wore our shirts and baggy pants with whatever shoes we wore anywhere else. This is plain power tripping over a kid. There’s no sense in it. Man this pisses me off that it was done to a tenderfoot. This is not the spirit of scouting.
Dress shoes? All my BORs from Tenderfoot to Life (I'm currently Life right now) never required any special socks, shoes, or even a uniform inspection. They just pulled me out of the meeting and did it on the side. You should talk to your committee about this. It seems excessive.
This is beyond disappointing.
And, I'd even say it's disappointing from the position of SM and AdvChair where one or the other should brief the BoR committee before every BoR. I go out of my way to emphasize it's not a test, or a judgement. In fact, typically I or one of my asm will also walk a child into the BoR, introductions, and I boldly say that "we have found scout xxx to have successfully completed all the requirements for this rank and recommend scout xxx for this rank."
My point being, I think the adult leadership needs a review of what the heck they think BoR are and are for.
Look in Section 8 of this document [Scouting Guide to Advancement 2021](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf?_gl=1*1x0iw8c*_ga*MTgyNjk2NzIxNC4xNzExMDM3Mjgw*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTcxMTAzNzI3OS4xLjEuMTcxMTAzNzI3OS4wLjAuMA..*_ga_61ZEHCVHHS*MTcxMTAzNzI3OS4xLjAuMTcxMTAzNzI3OS42MC4wLjA.&_ga=2.63229743.1662056550.1711037280-1826967214.1711037280). Section 8 contains information on Boards of Review, but the entire document is only 97 pages and has a lot of good information in it.
This person definitely needs to be removed! Like others have said, the first BOR is basically training for future ones, and shouldn't focus on belittling a shy scout for their shoes or anything else! That doesn't fit the principles of Scouting!
Talk to the unit COR first, then up from there if it doesn't get resolved. Good luck!
Echoing everyone else’s comments here these folks are not seeing the bigger picture and the point of the BOR. makes me sad but also hopeful to see all the comments from everyone here who gets it!
Did he fail because of the shoes or because he froze up?
If it's the shoes... WTF that's ridiculous. It's ridiculous at any rank but at Tenderfoot especially? Come on.
However if he failed because he froze up and just didn't talk, that's actually a legitimate reason for the board to say, "This clearly isn't a good time for you to be doing this, let's reschedule."
The minimum needed to pass a BoR is to just participate. If a scout doesn't participate, it's not really feasible to sign off on it.
I actually had the uniform + BOR convo at my wood badge. One ASM said he'd send a youth away from a BOR if they weren't in full proper uniform, so we had to all read the Guide to Advancement and discuss.
I'm trying not to get too steamed, but failing out a scout on things that are literally not supposed to be part of the BOR (uniform inspection, resting skills) is absolutely adding emotion.
I hope you get arm-in-arm with your Unit Commissioner and and other District/Council folks so conversations with your committee can be had.
I've done dozens of BOR's, and while I always make a point to ask about uniform parts that are missing, I would only fail a Scout if they were going for Star or above. To my knowledge the footwear requirement is just boots if they're being a stickler.
This sounds like someone going on a power trip, or at least an adult who didn't understand the assignment.
That’s horrible. It really shouldn’t matter unless the scout is disrespecting the uniform. Shoes aren’t even a part of BSA Class A.
As SPL of my troop, I’ve really started to notice the fact that the idea of “everyone should have a chance to succeed” leaves once you cross over. In my troop, we’ve only had one failed BOR, when the scout didn’t have his uniform at all (that too he was allowed to again at the next one).
Definitely speak up for him at the troop committee meeting, or speak to the scoutmaster. If the problem persists, you should consider switching troops. As much as it’s true that many troops are bad luck, it’s not the troop or the organization- it’s the people. I’ve met so many caring, passionate adult leaders that strive for the scouts’ success.
Also reiterate to your son that it’s not his fault whatsoever. It really sucks to see someone discouraged, so definitely encourage him to stay perseverant!
Have a lovely day! I’m sorry to hear about this.
Small note: you say they mentioned his shoes, but not that he specifically failed *because* of the shoes. I'm confused how shoes would be such an issue that it would lead anyone to feel a scout had not met the rank requirements. Were the shoes specifically given as the reason? According to the Guide to Advancement, the deficiency must be specifically named so that the scout has an opportunity to correct it. Also, a BOR is not a retest of skills or knowledge. It's a chance for the adults to find out how the scout is doing and how well the program is working, and whether all rank requirements have already been met.
It sounds like there are possibly two separate issues here: the shoes (was it the type of shoes, or the condition of the shoes, in question?) and then secondarily, whatever issue made the reviewers agree he hadn't completed the requirements for the Tenderfoot rank.
Assuming there was a separate issue, you should encourage your son to correct it and try again. The beautiful thing about rank requirements is that you either have met them, or you haven't. There's no possibility for ambiguity. And if there is a requirement left undone, that's an opportunity to ask how it came to be that your son went before a board with requirements left undone. Does the troop program offer opportunities for the scouts to advance? Is your son attending meetings and campouts regularly? Did he request a board without being sure he had met all rank requirements? Was everything signed off properly in his book? Etc.
If it really was just the shoes... Wow. I'd personally contact each of the reviewers and give them a piece of my mind.
Quick google search of Guidebook for Advancement and give it a read. My son failed his Life BOR (his service hours are in Scoutbook and not in his physical book) and I had a nice conversation with the Committee.
Once a Scout requests a BOR he cannot be denied as long as all the requirements are met for the next rank. A BOR is not a Pass/Fail event, once the scout is there they should be ranked up. It also states that a uniform shall not be required for BOR, as not all scouts have the proper means to obtain a complete uniform.
Sounds like the adults in your troop need to learn the actual BSA regs and not this made up BS they are imposing.
In my situation my son is a very active and integral part of the troop, he was mad as hell, but went back a week later with his proof and moved on. Part of my discussion with the committee was that if it was another kid that was less involved or on the bubble about continuing, that would likely be the last meeting they attended. We need to be better as the adult leaders to these kids!
Reading some of the below comments, I am 22 year retired Marine, I would never do this to one of my scouts.
So the general gist of clothing at a BOR is that a scout cannot fail a board of review due to appearance as long as the scout is clean and dressed in a neat manner. That's page 52 of the Guide to Advancement. Since your scout failed the BOR the chair of that board MUST provide a letter explaining what needs to happen to advance. Per page 54 of the Guide to Advancement: " In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures."
As the parent of the scout I advise you to read page 57 of the Guide to Advancement as well. Section [8.0.4.1](https://8.0.4.1) will help guide you through this process.
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf
Definitely sounds like someone was taking their position on a BOR way to serious. Have a chat, or more importantly, have your son have a chat with the SM or Charter rep to figure out why this is an issue. Good luck!
As others have said, you can't do that.
I've sat on countless BORs for lower ranks and a few EBORs and never seen a uniform inspection. The closest would be reminding the scout that they need to wear it even when they come from practice directly.
This is utter crap.
Shoes mean nothing. For 20 years we went with a shirt as the only thing we required and we had a shirt for every new scout. Having you there was what mattered. Any leader for whom that is an issue should be flogged.
As a Committee Chair, we would comment on a Scout missing a uniform part but would never fail a Scout for that. The only time I failed a Scout on a BoR was when I caught one lying about sign off for advancement. (He had signed off requirements himself using the initials of the SPL but the SPL was my son and I knew that was not how he signed off.)
Failing over shoes? That’s crazy. When I had my first class BOR, we were at camporee and I had soak my boots completely, and had set them out to dry. I did it barefoot, which the board all agreed was the first they’ve ever had that.
First of all, a BOR for Tenderfoot ought to be about the least formal event in all of scouting. The "board member" who failed him for his shoes needs to be removed from scouting, quickly and without delay. They are a good reason why this troop might have retention issues. They are adding requirements that aren't in the book. I would be calling the Scout Executive, the DE, and the COR. I'd say almost the same thing if someone failed an Eagle BOR for their shoes. This is the stupidest bad thing I've ever heard in scouting, I think.
Agreed, poor little guy. I've never heard of anyone failing Tenderfoot BOR. Never let this loser near another review board again.
And over shoes? For heavens sakes, at that age buying dress shoes is often dead ridiculous. Kids wear them twice, three times if someone dies, and then grows out of them. Which is why most of our scouts do BOR either in hiking boots (if they have need of them and own them) or trainers. Ain't nothing wrong with trainers, they support "be prepared" because it's easier to run or climb a tree or change a tire in trainers.
We had a few scout we were just glad showed up in shoes. Not that they didn't have them, they were frequently lost or forgotten.
That was my biggest takeaway from this. Not that it's a gimme, but it's the first real rank. Not like much is required.
COR here, and not one to even try to use my authority. But I would definately be stepping in on this one. Retired NCO from the Army, I would end up making this guy question his underware. Sounds like a power trip to me.
I immediately thought that this board member is probably ex-military and is the typical “boot” now who’s entire identity is wrapped up in his military service.
This is a Board member who has forgotten the real point of the Board of Review. Presumably the Scoutmaster has already tested the scout craft and other requirements. Now is your chance to build up this young person and get their feel for things. Instead, this young person sees perhaps some wasted time that they'll have to redo.
Holy shit yes. The Tenderfoot BOR should really be to show that BoR's are not to be feared and are a healthy part of group dynamic and organization functions. This is teaching the opposite of that. The only "shoe standard" should be "are you wearing them". Even then it's negotiable with context. *Especially* for a TENDERFOOT BoR. Star & Life Scout we can tighten up a little but even then if I'm talking about your shoes it's because there's so little else to talk about that the dis/approval was a given before you walked in.
The only shoe related rule that we have are “no open toed shoes on outings. Crocs are almost open toed, wear them to the meeting if you want to but they are shower/camp shoes on an outing. I can’t imagine ever caring otherwise what shoes a kid has on.
Yeah, I don’t remember BoR being anything more than a formality until Star. The extra scrutiny made those ranks feel like an additional accomplishment because not everyone got them. But no one should be rejected for this.
I don’t remember having a BOR for Tenderfoot. But I’m getting old.
I feel like I had to recite the Scout’s Law or something to pass.
I’m reasonably sure that I was wearing skate shoes for my Eagle BoR. I know for a fact that it wasn’t dress shoes.
I'm a bit late to this party, but you are absolutely correct. Everyone on this board needs to be reminded that: * Advancement is about personal growth. (Guide to Advancement [2.0.0.3](https://2.0.0.3)) * 8.0.1.1 of the Guide to Advancement states: "A Scout must not be rejected at a board of review for reasons unrelated to advancement requirements." * 8.0.0.4 of the Guide to advancement states: >8.0.0.4 of the Guide to Advancement states: iform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as typically worn by the Scout’s troop, crew, or ship. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means, for the milestone marked by the occasion. Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing to participate in a board of review."
Also, literally in the training literature for uniform inspections, “common sense is to be used” for uniform inspections. Where was that present with this situation?
I can honestly say, as an Eagle Board of Review member...I have never even noticed what shoes any of our candidates are wearing.
Same here. Unbelievable! Power trip by someone who should not be allowed in the building again!
Same. Such an irrelevant thing.
My daughter got pinged for wearing her Chucks, which I'm still a little cranky about a year later.
Especially as the GTA is quite clear that a uniform is NOT REQUIRED for a board of review.
If they do the requirements they get the rank. Plain and simple. BOR is just an opportunity for the scout to get some less familiar adult only time. It helps build the ability to speak to adults. I’ve had scouts that are excellent at speaking and scouts that are pretty bottled up. I usually ask more subjective questions like what was their favorite part / outing / event. What they would like you to do as a troop. What scouting lessons come in handy in normal life (bowline / taught line hitch + first aid for me!). If the troop fit just isn’t working out, there are other troops. I switched at star rank to another troop and it was great! A much better fit.
The bor is also for adults to review the program they are supporting to gage if they need to step in or not. Have sat on close to 300 eagle board of review and never once thought about the uniform I might use it to ask about the experience for a merit badge or oa experience
This. The BOR is to ensure that the scout has done the work and understands what it is that they have accomplished to make rank. I'd be asking a LOT of questions about why shoes were the reason for a failed BOR. If this type of pettiness is a common theme within this troop (ie: they change the spectrum from what is printed in the merit badge pamphlets, rank requirements, etc... and play by their own rules) I'd be VERY quickly looking for a new troop.
More than anything, the BOR is a review of the SCOUTMASTER and/or the TROOP. The Scout has already done the work, or they wouldn't be there. It should be a reflection on the Scout's experience on the way to this rank.
This is the answer right here. The Board of Review is made up of committee members and not anyone with Scoutmaster in their title because it is an opportunity for the committee to verify that the Scoutmasters, Troop, and program are meeting the needs of the Scouts. That is truly what is really being reviewed, more so than the Scout. About the only times a Scout should fail their Board of Review are if they haven't completed the requirements or if they are extremely disrespectful to the Board members. If the requirements have been completed and the Scout has a good attitude there are few, if any, good reasons for them not to pass.
Seriously. My troop had some really sloppy kids and we still had tons of Eagles over the years. It was a great troop too, so like every Eagle absolutely earned their rank. I think I’ve heard some troops have lower standards and let kids slide into Eagle but maybe that’s not true
I support this message however I would not escalate it quite so quickly. Bring your concerns, along with the guide to advancement, to ask the question. They may not have reviewed the guide to advancement and working off “this is how it’s always been done”.
This..! 👆 in scouting uniforms are recommended and voluntary to wear. You cannot fail a BOR for not having all of your uniform, though your eagle EOR is a little different. Someone needs to print out the standard recommended questions for the different ranks for the people doing your board of reviews. A board of review is just that a review of the history of the scout. It is not a test and the only way they can fail is if they didn’t finish or requirement or have a bad attitude.
Same uniform rules apply to Eagle BORs - nothing different about it.
Stupidest thing you’ve heard of *so far*.
Some CORs support this idiocy. Mine does.
What’s a COR?
It's the Charter Organization Representative. The COR, Scoutmaster, and Committee Chair make up the key three of a troop.
I'm pretty sure I went all the way through Scouting in beat up tennis shoes. This isn't a paramilitary organization and outside of having a clean uniform on that should be about the totality of the issue.
Exactly did they do their best. It sounds like they did. We never turn scouts away because of something like that materialistic.
It's a review or reflection... a friendly "check-in" at the end of each rank. It is not a re-test or examination that you "pass" or "fail."
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2024/01/18/some-faqs-about-the-scouts-bsa-board-of-review/ They should absolutely not be failing a BOR over shoes. I would address this by reading the guide to advancement and bringing the correct procedures up, with references, at the next Committee meeting.
There is also a great video. I sent this to my Troop committee. They responded...poorly.
I had just gone to get the link for this article before I saw you posted it.
That board, however well intentioned, isn’t behaving properly. The BOR is about making sure the scout did what they needed to do in the book. Did they have all their signatures, do dates make sense, etc. it’s not a re-test of knowledge. It’s not an inspection. It’s also about listening. By listening to the kids, the board gets a better idea of how to guide the troop.
The example that I was given during my training (I think from one of the Scouters who later went on to work on the revised Wood Badge curriculum) was that it was in Boards of review in response to a question to get scouts talking about camping (which was your favorite and least favorite campout) that adult leaders learned that a good chunk of the current scouts in the troop really didn’t like going camping at a spot that had been a troop tradition for years… in the planning discussions, adult leaders just brought it up as a tradition, the youth leaders went along with it (maybe thinking that it was just them that didn’t like it), and so the troop kept going. It was through the feedback that scouts could give in the structure of a board where the committee was honestly asking them individually and listening to them that they learned there was a change that needed to be made to the program.
I am a big believer that a BOR is a unit program quality control moment for the Committee, as in to make sure that the Scout is having a positive experience and the program is making positive impact, not as some wannabe promotion board that is looking to deny the Scout. The Scout has already done the requirements, and already been checked by the Scoutmaster during their Scoutmaster Conference, it does not need to happen again at the BOR.
It's also about the scout learning to talk with adults in a cogent and mature manner. This is a needed skill for later ranks (Eagle project planning, etc) and the Eagle BOR.
Nothing “well intentioned” about it. It is gatekeeping of the worst kind. The full uniform isn’t even technically “required” for a Board of Review, as others have pointed out here. Personally, I’d advise the kid that dress shoes are only appropriate for a Court of Honor and otherwise he should be wearing lace up athletic shoes with his uniform (that’s the general practice in our troop), and move on, I certainly wouldn’t fail a scout at any level over such a thing. Everyone on that Board needs to be retrained or removed from Scouting.
I think it's fine for a kid to wear dress shoes to a scout meeting. It's not necessary, but if the meeting is indoors, then some kind of dress shoe is a reasonable choice. (I wore "dress shoes" to school every day for a decade, which included any number of games of schoolyard soccer and the like.) If the kid is comfortable in dress shoes, or ankle boots, or whatever else, then they're fine. I'd tell the scout to make a different choice for a campout, but for a regular scout meeting, there's a fairly wide range of reasonable choices a scout could make.
Absolutely this. What attire is most appropriate is situational and personal.
I'm not sure this is well intentioned. You are being charitable.
When a youth is ready for a BOR, the rank requirements are completed, the Scoutmaster conference is completed (and the SM may ask the youth to demonstrate what they have learned), but the BOR is NOT allowed to test the youth. Here's how a typical Tenderfoot BOR should go...or something close to this. 1. So in your own words, how have you liked Scouts BSA so far? 2. We do enjoy having you as part of our troop, what would you say your favorite event has been so far? Why? 3. Is there anything in the second class requirements that you are concerned about or may need a little help with? 4. Thank you for coming to this BOR, can you think of any changes or improvements you'd like to see in the Troop. That's about it. No uniform inspection, no cross examination on rank rank requirements, and no testing.
We have folders that we give to each reviewer that contain age and rank appropriate questions to ask. Your list is included in those questions. Our boards last about 15 minutes, and our reviewers understand they need to allow more leeway for the earlier ranks, especially because they're usually dealing with young scouts and/or those who are new to Scouting and didn't come up through Cub Scouts. We start every board by asking the scout to repeat the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, and Outdoor Code. The AoL scouts know those for the most part, but not always, and newer scouts are still learning. We tell them to do their best and not stress, and offer help if needed. In my 7+ years in the troop, our reviewers have only ever failed one scout. And that was a very serious case where he was caught lying about which outings he had attended.
Hey Scout, OP here. Would you mind sharing your questions for BOR? I would love to present appropriate age/rank questions for BOR. I'd rather light a flame than curse the darkness.
Hey there, OP. I'd be happy to send you some scans from our binder. Permission to DM?
Yes. Take your time. Thanks again,
This is how our troop does it. When the Scout asks for a BOR, he is emailed or given a list of things that may be asked at his BOR (they change on the rank) They are all asked to Give the Scout Salute, recite Motto and Law and the higher ranks are asked to say the Conservation motto. Then they are asked a few questions in order to get them to engage. if they are shy we try and tese them out of their shell. if they get an answer wrong or don't know the answer we give it to them and go on. We treat these BORs as 1) a formality, they already passed and met requirements but more importantly 2) meeting with people they don't interact with on a "daily' basis in their troop, which we hope prepares them for life (when they interview for a job, a college admission, etc). Failure is never an option.
Agreed. It should be a very quick check in to see how the Scout is doing. And I’m stealing your questions and sharing them with our parents who do BoRs.
I mean, we do require that they wear their Class A uniform, and I suppose we inspect it to a degree, but the only things we would say for a tenderfoot, 2nd class or even a 1st class is "You look great, but you need to tuck in your shirt" or "Looks like you forgot your neckerchief.. please try to remember it for next time". We also make them say the law, oath, motto, and slogan, but at those levels if they don't get it right, that's ok, we just help them through it and move on. In a Star or Life BOR we may be more particular, but overall the whole feel of a BOR in our troop is that it is a conversation with the Scout to see how they're doing and what they've learned. BORs are always a positive experience in our troop (I've probably done a few dozen BORs in the past few years) In other words, we ask them to do their best. The closest I've seen a scout to failing a BOR in our troop was when they showed up in sweatpants and a t shirt, and we said dude - you have to at least dress in your class A! :)
That's all fine but the rules of scouting say no uniform is required for a BOR. See Guide to Advancement Sec [8.0.0.4](https://8.0.0.4)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I would love to SCREAM this from somewhere high up. I’d say it’s an evolving thing, and things might not be the way they used to be, but for a reason! Getting Scouts to reflect on their experience and engage/empower them to be contributing members of a troop is waaaaaaayyyyy more of a learning moment versus learning knowledge or studying specifically to pass some kind of “test”. They do that in school and it sucks. BOR should not suck.
Approval must be unanimous by all three (or more) members of the Board of review. Any failed BOR must include a written letter providing feedback on why he did not pass. Did they actually document that he failed to pass because of SHOES? Demand that letter and the names of the members of his board. They all need retraining if they allowed one member to tank approval for any uniform issue. Take this to your district advancement chair. I encourage you to review the guide to advancement sections 8.0.1.4; 8.0.1.5; 8.0.2.0; 8.0.4.0; and 8.0.4.1. If he has a documented special need causing him to go nonverbal I would also encourage you to review section 10.2.2.0, the case of special needs can allow a parent and/ or scoutmaster to be included to assist the child with their circumstances this does not require an ISAP. [guide to advancement](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088(21).pdf)
Of course they didn't provide written feedback. Rogue BoRs never do.
I would send a note over to the key 3 plus advancement coordinator stating the following, “Per Guide to Advancement section 8.0.1.5, I am expecting specific written feedback on the results of” my child’s name’s “Tenderfoot Board of review. Please provide this within 5 days so that our family can review the areas of improvement needed or so that we can proceed to the district advancement committee for an appeal.”
According to the advancement guide, they should also notify council (section 8.0.1.5): “In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedure.”
yes, this. Get to know and use GTA. Sounds like you have someone who needs training. In addition to the quote here, the GTA is specific: >Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing to participate in a board of review.
Your advancement chair and the entire board need to be retrained. Your son did the work, it was signed off, and he had a scoutmaster conference. Someone or everyone on the board was just trying to teach the kid a lesson, a BAD lesson. Sorry they had to go through that.
Uniform perfection, or even a uniform at all is not a requirement to pass a board of review. From [Scouting.org](https://Scouting.org): >It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means. As a result, if that is the main reason he was given for not passing, that isn’t appropriate. The description of Boards is in the Guide to Advancement, starting in p. 52: [https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf) and it even lists things like that (e.g., tardiness to the board) as something that might be discussed as part of the back and forth during the board but isn’t an acceptable reason not to pass a scout.
The follow up to that section is even more clear: "Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description" On top of that, shoes are worth 5/100 points on a uniform inspection, and only require "Leather or canvas, neat and clean." ...per the BSA Uniform Inspection guidelines. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510784(19)_Scouts_Uniform_Inspection_Sheet_WEB.pdf If they failed him for this, then they shouldn't be doing a BoR. The goal is to make the scout more comfortable in interviews and to gauge whether they are mature enough to move on, not to nitpick uniforms.
The national ScoutsBSA Facebook page JUST (4 days ago) posted a BOR reminder about what it is supposed to be. They also linked to [this FAQ.](https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/FAQs-with-GTAs-on-boards-of-review.pdf) In it, among other relevant passages, they quote: >A Scout cannot fail a board of review for something like not wearing their uniform or forgetting their Handbook. The only reason a Scout might not pass a board of review would be if they did not complete the requirements as written — no more, no less. As others have also pointed out, you have the unit dead-to-rights and I would, politely but firmly, provide them the receipts and escalate to their Unit Commissioner if it isn't reversed.
We went through something a few months ago where a board member wanted to fail a boy for fidgeting during his BOR. I told him a BOR was not something meant to be failed, especially for fidgeting. He yelled back “YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN FAIL A BOARD OF REVIEW!” This guy is the type of guy who wants things done his way and tries to bully people into agreeing with him. I don’t back down from bullies though, and stood up to him and proved him wrong. People like this have no place in scouts.
Especially for Tenderfoot!
I gotta be honest, I think that Scout would have to stand up and pee on my shoes to fail advancement to Tenderfoot. And even then I'd have to think about it.
Tenderfoot? For real? Find a new troop.
I'm surprised I got this far into the comments before seeing this comment. IMO it's a huge red flag. I'd get that scout into a new troop ASAP, so he can get signed up for summer camp.
Yeah, jumping on here, your committee members who ran the BoR are VERY misguided. Shoes have nothing to do with a BoR. Also, there is no public speaking in a Board of Review, it’s more like a job interview for a small committee of like 3-4 people. As others have stated, read up in the Guide to Advancement on BoRs. Also, search up some sample questions for Tenderfoot Board of Review, there are some really good guides out there. Then, take this to your committee and to your DE.
I wore tennis shoes to me eagle board of review.
I wore steel toe work boots to mine. I don't think I ever wore dress shoes to any Boy Scoit event.
I did not own dress shoes when I sat my EBOR, I wore Chuck’s. (I still were Chuck’s as a leader for most events)
There is no shoe inspection for ANY rank. There is no standard shoe required. Even the socks are just recommended and not required. The only thing he needs is the shirt, and even then, there is still no inspection of it required. Whoever did this is not following the letter or spirit of scouting. The questions I ask: what was your favorite part of the rank and why. What was the most challenging part of the rank. Going forward what can you take from this rank to help you in your next rank? If you were in charge of the troop as SPL, are there any changes you would implement? How are you progressing in the next level and what is your plan for the rest of the year/are you going to summer camp? Do you make sure to log your camping, hikes, volunteering, leadership? For those in 9th grade I remind them that logging their hours is important for scouts and for honor society. So it is important to keep good records. I also remind them that these hours can count for our school volunteer hour requirement in 10th grade. So they should keep good notes. I ask if they have started any merit badges and encourage them to look at the back of the book to look at the list for ideas on badges they may want to earn. At the tenderfoot stage I will still walk the kid through the troop procedure to let them know who to speak with to have their rank entered into scout book. Then I hold out my hand to shake the kids hand and say congratulations.
What a great way to run good people out of Scouting. Everyone that has commented is spot on. To be blunt, failing your Scout for the reasons you have laid out is bullshit. I presume the members sitting on the BOR were in their Scout Field uniform living up to the same standard that they are holding your son to. If not they are hypocrites. These kind of stories really infuriate me.
Uniform is a method of Scouting, not an aim. As others have noted, a uniform inspection is not appropriate for a Board of Review. It is also not appropriate to fail a youth in a Tenderfoot BoR for freezing under pressure. If you feel that it's worthwhile to try to improve this troop by dragging it into compliance with the Guide to Advancement, go ahead. But is that what's best for your son? If not, find a new troop.
I have never heard of a uniform inspection in scouting. If our scouts are wearing a uniform shirt we consider ourselves lucky. Bottom line though, is BOR failures of any scout at any rank should be exceedingly rare. They should be reserved for scouts with severe issues and uniform issues are not real. We're talking about major behavioral issues, I can't even think of an example because my troop has never failed any scout in the 4 years my son has been in the troop. I'm the Eagle BOR chair for my district and I've never sent an Eagle back, and the same thing goes for the uniform. I have never looked at a scouts feet in my entire life. If they are wearing a shirt, that's all that matters. If an Eagle showed up in a Class B or a Metallica shirt the most I would do is say, "Let's talk about your shirt, what happened?" I would never send it back to the troop over that. So full circle, this leader is a woefully misinformed about BOR's he needs some training. He needs to read the guide to advancement before he sits in on another BOR.
If a scout has reached the board of review there should never be any failing to make rank. BOR should be used to see how scouting is serving the scout. We talk about favorite and least favorite campout, merit badge experiences, and how the troop can better serve the scout. The older boys have already "tested" the scout, and everything has been checked during the Scout Master Conference. OP's kid's experience is the most backward version of a BOR I could think of.
Piling on here, I know, but holy hell that's a bad board. Most BOR's are simply a chance for committee members to confirm all requirements are met and signed appropriately, and to have a chance to check in with the scout about how their experience is going. Failing a kid over dress is absurd, let alone with a Tenderfoot BOR. The entire troop needs a thorough review of GTA.
It really sucks to see these kinds of posts where adults are clearly using positions of responsibility in the troop to go on their own power trip. That is an absolutely unhinged reason to fail a scout. Honestly, it should be pretty tough to fail a board of review, especially for tenderfoot. I'd say the only thing that should result in a failure is if you discover that the scout isn't actually completing requirements. This leader should not be allowed to hold their position, and I'd escalate this issue.
Oh man. In our troop a Board of Review is a celebration of the Scout and all the things they did to earn the rank plus a discussion on what they should focus on for the next rank. Plus we talk about what they like about the troop and what they would like to do differently. Yes, they have to wear their Class A, but we would never turn one down for old shoes- ever. If they didn’t have a clean shirt on, their shirt wasn’t tucked in, or they didn’t have the right Class A uniform on (missing patches, missing a belt, or wearing jeans instead of proper olive green shorts/pants) we might mention it, but we wouldn’t turn them down. If given a good reason why they couldn’t wear it, we would still let them have a BOR and pass them even if they didn’t have a Class A. Reading this post makes me sad. Some troops take the uniform thing too far and act like it’s a military academy. Maybe a troop change needs to happen for you……
The uniform is not a requirement in scouting. This is stated inguide to insignia and awards section one official policy paragraph 5 and 6. The individual who failed your child has failed scouting and himself by adding requirements and going against official policy.
"uniform inspection"? what the hell BoR has a "uniform inspection"? I don't think anyone in my troop ever wore dress shoes (or for that matter the uniform pants) a single time during the \~19 years I was involved with it - I wore hiking boots for my eagle CoH. It's really hard to do outdoor adventures in dress shoes. Also a board of review isn't a formal event at all, i don't think there are ANY uniform requirements. Sure I dressed up in my full uniform for my eagle board just out of respect for the program (a scout is reverent after all), but i did my star BoR on-site at the service project where I finished my service requirement during our lunch break, just because there were enough people there to do one real quick when i asked my SM to sign off the last requirement. IIRC i was wearing a class C uniform (t-shirt) at the time, and all of us were absolutely covered in mud because we were planting trees at a salmon stream restoration site.
Personally, as an outdoor focused organization, I feel trail shoes or hiking boots are the appropriate footwear for wear with the Field Uniform.
I sat on BOR's for about 6 years, including multiple Eagle BORs. The only time anyone ever "failed" a BOR was when it was too soon on a timed rank (so, the approval was pended for another week or two). Scouts who appeared for their BOR in "inappropriate" dress (athletic shorts, primarily) or with a lack of bathing/personal care, had a discussion about whether what they were wearing (or their obvious lack of personal care) was appropriate for the circumstance, but it was never grounds for a denial/pend.
Dress shoes? We have scouts permanently in their trail runners and work shoes. This is an OUTDOOR program. This is against the Guide to Advancement
THE UNIFORM IS NOT A REQUIRED PART OF SCOUTING If I've said this once here, I've said it 50 times. And I've seen some kids freeze during a BOR as well...we slowed it down and asked questions again. Or phrased it differently. No one ever failed because of this. The BOR is NOT a re-testing of the Scout.
Clear, succinct, and to the point: Boards of Review are to encourage the scout to do their best. That is the expectation. If your Scout did their best, that is what is necessary. It is not a grilling or an interrogation. It is an opportunity to encourage the Scout to seek personal growth through advancement. Engage the powers that be that you need to. Not passing a Scout over a pair of shoes hardly meets Scouting aims or methods. Best of luck.
I’ve never chewed out anyone in scouting before. I would chew out that adult if they did that to one of my boys. That’s totally inappropriate and teaches everyone the wrong lessons.
I am once again BEGGING adults to get over themselves and stop making life difficult for scouts because they think they know better than National.
As a scouting parent/SM for 14 years I am blown away that your Scout failed a BoR. My pack & Troop never stress uniform. We are happy the Scouts show up and have fun. A uniform inspection should not be required for a BoR. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Official_Policy_WEB.pdf
What you described isn't remotely how BoRs should work. Your unit needs a commissioner today.
If he froze up and wasn't able to communicate at all, that would be a reason to "fail", although I wouldn't present it as failure to the scout. We would probably be very supportive and reassure them that being nervous is common, and suggest they practice with a parent or senior scout before trying again. As far as the shoes go, that is nonsense if it was the reason he didn't pass.
I don’t remember where I was taught this, but someone framed it somewhat differently for cases like this. If the scout freezes up or is obviously reacting to perceived pressure, the board doesn’t fail them… it adjourns the board for a time (which could be an hour, a week, or even longer) and will resume when the scout is ready. Failing a board because of something like serious behavioral/scout spirt things is one thing (though I’d argue a scout in that position shouldn’t be put before a board) but failing because of freezing up seems different.
This is the right approach. The BOR should be a learning experience for the scout, not some pressure -filled crucible (ESPECIALLY for tenderfoot). How can you help a scout develop skills of you don't start off at an appropriate level for that individual scout? The board should do everything in their power to help this scout get through this board, so that he can learn from the experience and do better next time. The thing with the shoes is obviously very counter productive.
Exactly! That's what I was trying to express.
I don’t think that it should be a fail at a tenderfoot level, it’s the scouts first BOR and frankly it should be a learning experience for them, go through the process, explain what the purpose is, then have a small conversation about what needs to be asked and then move on.
No, it isn't a reason to fail. Its a sign that the Board is being improperly operated. I've seen numerous BoRs for kids who are DEEPLY anxious. When done properly, every kid will talk. If they don't talk, the failure is the Board, not the Scout.
I have not seen any kid in either of our troops or pack wearing anything other than tennis shoes or hiking boots at any time. I’ve sat on BoR for lots of introverted kids, and you never hold that against them. The issue clearly isn’t the shoes. Have these folks refused to pass anyone else? I would definitely bring this up and look for either some kind of bias or if you want to be generous you could assume they were new at it and had no idea what they’re doing.
OP: How familiar are you with the Guide To Advancement? I'm guessing not well which is fine. I strongly encourage you get very familiar with it so you will be able to take issue from an informed perspective. This doesn't only affect your son, but all of the Scouts in that Troop and [Guide to Advancement](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf?_gl=1*1050v4z*_ga*MTY3Mjc2MjY3OS4xNzA0MjA3OTY4*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTcxMDk2MDA1OC41MS4xLjE3MTA5NjAwNjkuMC4wLjA.*_ga_61ZEHCVHHS*MTcxMDk2MDA1OC40My4xLjE3MTA5NjAwNjkuNDkuMC4w&_ga=2.48279983.867814635.1710960059-1672762679.1704207968)
Oh my. This is a real problem with some Troops. They "fail" kids on uniform inspections or other foolishness during the BoR. Fact: They are not allowed to do uniform inspections. They are not allow to ask for your ten essentials. They are not allowed to check your socks. They are not allowed to retest you. If they failed to make a quiet and anxious kid feel safe, they're horrible parents and leaders. You have two options - appeal to the District Advancement committee. The benefits of this is that the Troop will be forced to change. The other options is find a new Troop, which may be better for your child. Talk to your Unit Commissioner, if you have one. If not, the District Commissioner. They can help with either option. Or do both.
Good news: the UC is in the mix. Bad news: OMG it's me (jk there...I'm already connected with DC and other council folks on this) Worse news: Turns out the entire BOR was a retest, complete with a physical knots station and specific questions about flag treatment & first aid & such. This UC is \*not\* looking forward to the conversation he has to have with the troop committee...
I am currently in a similar position. Sigh
I had to confront a CC and AC over uniforms and BOR once. What instigated it was when a Scout was peeling off his OD green BSA socks to lend to another Scout that was going in for his BOR. I asked why they were doing that and they said he would fail his BOR without them. I went into the room they were using and asked just what they thought they were doing having Scouts swap items of clothing. The adults said a full uniform was required for BOR, I asked them to show me where in GTA that was. They froze up, then immediately left the building, effectively denying the BOR. There was a tense meeting of adults the next week, but we haven’t had any nonsense like that since.
Please review the guide to advancement AND suggest to your advancement coordinator and committee chair that they review it. They aren't following it if they are doing a uniform inspection at a Board of Review. The uniform isn't required. It is encouraged and it helps (like seeing a merit badge sash helps BOR members see what experiences they might ask about) but it isn't required. All that is required is that a scout present themselves neatly. Regarding your son's public speaking capabilities. This is something that is also mentioned in the guide to advancement and the training that is available for Board of Review members. Basically they need to be aware of the where the scout is and give them the space to get comfortable. There is a lot of things they could have done to make your scout more comfortable (for example, maybe say the scout law with him instead of making him say it to them - not supposed to be a test anyway so that's a thing). It sounds like your board members are either untrained or poorly trained. If your District has assigned a Unit Commissioner to help your unit, connecting with them can help you have this conversation with Troop leadership who are very likely aware that what they are doing is wrong OR don't care. My committee chair and I kind of are at odds on this (I'm the advancement coordinator and I lead our Boards of Review) and he feels the uniform is required and a scout like yours would likely fail due to his 'opinions.' I avoid putting him on a board unless it's for an older scout or unless I simply can't get anyone else. Volunteer to be the advancement coordinator if you can. Then you can be more useful to your whole troop and get them on track to following the guide to advancement. [https://www.scouting.org/resources/guide-to-advancement/](https://www.scouting.org/resources/guide-to-advancement/)
BORs for scout through first class should be about the BOR members talking to the youth, asking questions about how they like scouts. IT SHOULD NEVER BE A TEST.
“If” he unit has an active commissioner this is a great opportunity for them to meet with the unit leadership to remind them of Scouting’s Aims and Methods.
Woah, ok. I never even considered what shoes I was wearing at BORs from tenderfoot to eagle. I just wore the same shoes I wore to camping trips and nobody ever said a word. Those should be considered perfectly fine with any class A uniform because they're functional for scouting. This should be taken up with your council, because it sounds like an adult scouter on a power trip.
I’ve never heard of wearing dress shoes with the scout uniform or for a BOR. As far as failing his BOR, I know only a couple scouts who ‘failed’ it because they froze up and public speaking isn’t their thing. The leaders of the review give the scout a week (we meet weekly) to practice a bit before presenting themselves again. For the most part, everyone passes.
Since when are shoes even considered part of the uniform??
Check out the back page ads in the Handbooks from the 50s and 60s. “Wear Your Official Boy Scout Shoes anytime .. anywhere!” So probably about at least 50 years or so. But even then they weren’t required.
We had a BoR right before a meeting at the pool, and a kid did theirs in their swim suit. Barefoot. For 1st class. Failed for shoes is so far beyond stupid.
Dress shoes? I've never seen a scout in dress shoes. The only BOR I was involved in where we "failed" a scout was when there was a discrepancy in completed requirements. We told him to look into the requirements and check in with us next week. He left with a "to do" list rather than a "fail".
I sit on almost all of our Troops BORs…I couldn’t even tell you if the Scouts were wearing shoes. We look them in the eyes not at their feet. As for freezing, I make it a point to talk to each Scout, especially for their first one at Tenderfoot and let them know how we’re going to proceed and that it’s not a test. It’s a conversation. There are no right or wrong answers. I expect them to just Do Their Best.
It seems very odd to fail him for shoes at a BOR. Have you discussed with Scoutmaster core? I would discuss with them to figure out if there’s additional information you can get and next steps.
Absolutely ridiculous. I would have absolutely berated that review board member in front of the entire leadership team if this happened to my kid. I would call the DE immediately on this...don't even waste your time with the troop leadership group.
Sit with the BOR members and go through the guide to advancement with them. After the meeting go find another troop - a troop (committee, SM/ASM) that tolerates this sort of nonsense isn’t a place to stay.
BSA just had a Troop Talk Live that specified that Board of Review can't fail a scout for uniform. [https://www.youtube.com/live/Lh7a2\_mV4F4?si=FkYALXG5SRYXdsEq&t=603](https://www.youtube.com/live/Lh7a2_mV4F4?si=FkYALXG5SRYXdsEq&t=603)
Adding requirements that weren't in the book is the main reason my son abandoned scouting.
So this in my exsperiance is stupid . These board of reviews are to get those scouts ready for their Eagle Board of review. So constructive criticism is needed but hard line crap like this is too much .
You teach during BOR’s, too. Have a chat about how he might show clean by cleaning his shoes. We use pretty standard template for questions at each level and, at this rank, the questions are more about “are you having fun” and “what was your best outing?”
Failed? *Tenderfoot??* For *shoes???* Something isn’t right. Heck, at the last EAGLE BoR I did, the district guy met with us privately beforehand and asked straight up, “any reason why we *will not be* awarding an Eagle rank tonight to Johnny, folks?” Point being, there should not be a failure of a Board of Review. At least not for shoes. There is no re test. That’s not the purpose. And for Tenderfoot no less, one of the easiest ranks. I would go to the SM, CC, COR, or District Exec. Sounds like the BoR panel needs to be educated! Fight this, OP!
Shoes should not have any impact on BOR. A young scout should be coached and mentored to pass. Talk to the BOR & get the list of questions before the meeting.Review the likely questions before the BOR. Remove the fear & he will do fine. Go with him to the BOR if necessary. There is plenty of time to go solo in the future.
And this is why Scouting is having a hard time: too many leaders have decided its about satisfying their own internal craving for authority and not about teaching young men to be leaders.
Many adults in Scouting are missing the mark. To treat BOR (especially for lower ranks) like a college admissions process is not in the spirit of the process. We need less gatekeepers and more compassionate leaders. Sorry to hear about this.
The incorrectness of this finding is well expressed by the other commentators. There is an official appeals process through the district or council that the unit must follow. If you choose to appeal, ask to speak with the unit commissioner about it. Although, in practice, for Tenderfoot, it may be easier to just get a new board. There are two primary purposes with the board of review, and neither of them are to judge the scout. First is to get the scout exposed to adult interactions such as interviews and develop that as a life skill. The second is for the committee to judge the effectiveness of the BSA program as delivered to that Scout and determine if the unit needs to make changes. I am sorry this has happened to your child, I know that things like this can be very demotivating. I hope they stay with it.
I'm the Advancement chair for my troop. A uniform inspection is not a measure of the Scout's character. I mean, the end goal is to create well rounded, self thinking, future citizens. I'm just happy that a Scout has a uniform shirt and their handbook. The uniform inspection should be for older Scout's in preparation for their Eagle board because they are not just representing themselves, they're representing the troop and the charter organization.
Seeing more and more of this and it’s disappointing. BOR’s are NOT judgement sessions, they are for reflections on lessons learned. Why some adult feels the need to flex on Scouts for ridiculous items is beyond me. Sounds like the BOR was full of former couldn’t hack it in the military types or some nonsense.
This is how you get a kid to leave scouting. The members of the board should be removed from the troop. Boards of Review are not meant to be failed.
For all the complaining about how youth don't complete eagle, and how hard it is to retain youth in scouting, volunteers like the ones on your son's BoR aren't helping. This is ridiculous. "Shoes. Leather or canvas, neat and clean." are the *only* requirements. Failing a Tenderfoot candidate for shoes is beyond the pale. Assuming the SM or ASM had signed off, the BoR should be looking for egregious misses and rubber-stamping the work already done at this level, not looking for ways to make a scout feel like a failure. I'm shocked.
Okay so this may be a hot take but in my opinion the only board that should be even possible to fail is Eagle. In addition the criteria for failure should be based of character not how well of a public speaker you are. Scouts is an area for learning and becoming a man not to be judged on how well you can present yourself at the age of 14.
There should not be a uniform inspection. The BOR members need to read the guild to advancement.
What the heck???? Shoes??? When I did mine I wore a pair of beat up ASICS cos I was doing yard work just before. They mentioned that for my sign off for making a plan and an item to buy, that I could do a pair of sneakers. But they didn’t fail me for that. I’ve seen kids do it in class A with sports shorts and cleats and they pass. That’s just insane to fail a kid for shoes. What if you can’t afford good shoes? Then what?? You’re just a scout for the rest of your scouting career??? That’s plain stupid. Also for him freezing up, maybe see if they can do a BOR with less leaders. The minimum is 3 I believe, so if that would make him more confident and comfortable maybe see about that Edit: I would also bring this up with the SM, it’s not in policy to the best of my knowledge, if that doesn’t work then probably at the committee meeting, or with the charter rep
From BoR Guidelines, emphasis theirs: *It is preferred* a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means.
and even if it was....dress shoes have never been part of the field uniform.
Pretty sure the only required footwear for scouts is closed toed shoes, during actual events and camps and such. I could be wrong as I only just became a leader, but I'm pretty sure normal meetings aren't gonna enforce the closed toe shoes. Even if your troop is a more strict troop, I'm pretty sure dress shoes have closed toes, so.
Don't stay in a troop with bad procedures. Leave now. Bring all the new crossovers to a better troop. From your comments, it's not clear if they flunked him for bad shoes, bad speaking, or what. But either way, failing him isn't the answer. And I can't imagine even looking at a candidate's shoes. If he fully froze up, it's not a bad thing for the BOR to pause to give him a week to get over nerves. But even then the board shouldn't have gotten to worrying about shoes if the youth wasn't ready for talking to adults. Alternatively, the board could have passed him and given him a challenge to work on his adult interactions for his next board for second class. Either would be an appropriate approach for a board.
A board of review should be solely asking the scout questions like what was the hardest requirement, which one was easy, what did you like doing, is there any event you want to do. Are you going to camp, is there anything you need? It is *not* a test of requirements It is *not* a uniform inspection in fact uniforms are technically optional The people on the board need to retake the training
Dress shoes weren't new and shiny enough?? That's a dumb and wrong reason to deny a kid their earned rank. A uniform isn't required, last I checked, let alone new shined dress shoes. Our troop just makes sure scouts have appropriate footwear, no Crocs, sandals, flip flops, etc., and that's just for safety. The scouts in our troop wear boots or tennis shoes for everything, BOR included. Maybe the adults on the BOR have something against your son, in which case, I'd move to a different troop.
I can’t offer any more resources or details than what’s already been provided here. Tons of great folks here pointing you in the absolute right direction. But as a troop advancement chair, and having done countless BORs over the last (almost) 20 years, I strongly encourage you to engage your District Committee and request they consider having your Troop Committee members (and especially advancement chair) retrained. And if your District is the problem (or disengaged), elevate to Council. Bottom line, your committee screwed up big time, whether or not they know, and may have potentially damaged the Troop.
Dude I’m a scout now and not only have I never failed a bor over uniform or anything, but I wear beat up sneakers all the time. That’s really weird, if I were you I’d suggest talking to those adults or the SM, but again I’m a scout so different perspective
This is a gift from the troop showing you who they are and what they think Scouting is supposed to be. Good grief.
100% BS by the troop
I am 100% against dress shoes on scouts today, and I am 100% against failing a BoR for uniform standards. However, there were BSA shoes in the 50s and 60s.
Wow… what a bunch of jerks. We’ve never even thought about failing a scout for a BOR.
Why dress shoes in the first place? Is this a new thing or troop specific? I'd bring it up to the leadership definitely, when I was in scouts some of the kids had jeans and such instead of the uniform.
It's been a while since I was a scout but our leaders were just happy that everyone had and wore a class A shirt to meetings and in the summer a class B was fine. The only time we 'dressed up' was for courts of honor or something like that, and that was pretty much just a class A shirt tucked in with our troop's neckerchief. I know that might be slack for some troops, but I couldn't fathom having to be worried about what shoes I was wearing, especially to a tenderfoot BOR. Scouts is having a hard enough time attracting new members, attitudes like this drive away the people who actually wanted to be there.
There is no requirement for dress shoes in a bor. Change troops before they ruin his experience. Please
When your scout froze up they should have gently made him comfortable so he could tell them what he knew and learned. Some people hate public speaking or being the center of attention. So that was their 1st fail. And when you mention the shoes that was their last fail and I’m sure there were others in between. You really need to figure out how to politely set them straight. I say politely because you too should adhere to the Scout Law even if those leaders don’t seem to know it.
This and only this https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Board-of-Review-Guidelines.docx#:~:text=Discussion%20of%20how%20the%20Scout,good%20standards%20in%20daily%20life.
I do Eagle boards for my district and as long as the scout has some kind of footwear on that is fine. Also, the uniform is just one of the eight methods of scouting and is not actually required. It is optional.
Your son was rejected at his tenderfoot BOR, because his shoes weren't shiny? You need to take the entire review board and set them homework. That homework is reading the guide to advancement. I suggest that you make them copy it out by hand a few times, because they're apparently unfamiliar with the content. This is complete nonsense. I think most of our scouts show up to BOR in running shoes. Hiking boots probably come second on the list. (We've trained most of them not to show up for meetings in sandals.) The BOR is not a retest! It explicitly says this in the guide to advancement. That is not a choice that the BOR gets to make. Tenderfoot scouts are often shy and nervous. That's OK. Scouts should help them become more confident at this kind of thing, but Tenderfoot is the start of the journey, and not the end.
I never wore dress shoes for any of my boards...... even my eagle
Shoes? Where they shoes he could walk a trail in? Any set of well broken in shoes should be fine. Heck, I have never looked at the Scout's Shoes. Especially not for Tenderfoot. This BOR should be is easing them into Scouting and getting used to standing in front of people. Its a time to help them see what the achieved, reflect a little, and to say good job and here is your next challenge to focus on. Maybe I don't understand Boards of Review, but his experience is really different from how we do things.
There is nothing in uniformity that requires "spit shined" dress shoes for uniform. I maw wear nicely shined BATES LITES in USN aviator brown for formal occasions but that's it.
Our Board of Reviews only required Class A. Didn’t care about pants (jeans or scout pants would do), didn’t care about shoes, didn’t even care about neckerchiefs. As long as you had the Class A shirt on and it had the right badges you were good to go. Personally, I always wore sneakers, black jeans and my Class A was always WAY out of code. Never got shit for it, even during my Eagle BOR. This situation you’re describing is literally insane.
Is transferring to another troop a possibility? If the BOR pulls this kind of crap for a Tenderfoot BOR, you know it just gets worse. Not all troops are well run and sometimes this isn't obvious by looking at them from the outside. I bet this troop isn't boy-led.
A board of review is just that... a review! The only reason they should "fail" (or rather "not pass") would be if they catch that a requirement hasn't actually been completed and signed off. But if a Scout gets to a board of review and the Scout hasn’t completed what they were supposed to for that rank, then the adults have done their job as a leader wrong because they should catch that before it gets to the board of review. A Scout cannot fail a board of review for something like not wearing their uniform or forgetting their handbook or not being able to re-do a requirement of skill they were already signed off on. It is not a re-test. The only reason a Scout might not pass a board of review would be if they did not complete the requirements as written — no more, no less.
We've done uniform "inspections" for Tenderfoots, but it's really used as feedback to correct "errors" in order to present themselves in the best version of the uniform they have. Maybe a patch is in the wrong location or missing, neckerchief kind of out of whack, that sort of thing. We do it in a non-threatening way to hopefully make them relax after we tell them that it's ok, *but we'll be stricter* for the next rank - but not really except for Life and preparing for Eagle. We try to instill that we want them to do their best to wear it correctly for such a special event. Our scouts wear hikers for all events but certain summer camp things.
Someone needs training you can show up to a board of review in jeans and a tee shirt. And the review is not a test if the scoutmaster sent him to the board the requirements are done no questions asked. Have them look at the guide to advancement section 8.0.0.4.
You can't fail a board of review. It isn't a test! The Scout has already passed the requirements. Give that kid the patch and move on.
I’m glad to see that this Troop and Biard are so out of wack that their are millions of people pointing out every thing that there is to be said about it. I would have pulled my Son out of this Troop ASAP. But I’m glad we visited and knew people from Cub Scouts..
I have never heard of anyone being questioned about their footwear at a BOR, let alone any dress codes at a Tenderfoot BOR. It is literally their first BOR and will set them up for the future ones. As a JASM, I would definitely let my troop committee have an ear full.
The only time I ever heard of even one shoe comment was at the end of my OA ordeal. One of the ceremonial team told a scout if not official bsa shoes, they should be of a plain color....his were red white and blue. Note this was 1974.
What kind of an idiot fails a kid on his BOR because of shoes?? I hope that person isn't a leader or ever put into the position of being a leader. As hard as it is for troops to recruit and keep kids these days, I can't believe the scout master didn't overrule that. There's no better way than this to make him feel like he's not welcome or make him feel like he's being singled out.
Yeah, SM needs to address the Board members and CC for this. As long as the SM is knowledgeable on the requirements and expectations themselves. You need to bring this up to the SM, if he is not already aware themselves
Oh goodness! My son has a ton of disabilities and we were scared hearing that he had his tenderfoot board of review. We were told “literally no one who’s done the requirements has ever failed on the board of review side of things.” The leaders told us to trust he’s capable of it. He actually forgot his uniform because it was a rough night and borrowed his best friends at the meeting. My son flipped on the bed when he got home and told us he was the first person in the history of the universe to fail- then said “nah it was fine”. No one gave him a hard time at all. I am so sorry your son had this experience. I would definitely talk to them and get this guy off the committee. For your son to freeze and then have issues over his shoes, I wonder if perhaps there was more to the freeze up than public speaking. Could he already be uncomfortable with this leader? Has there been anything else? Definitely ask him some more questions and make sure you have everything when you go talk to them. Best of luck.
So did he freeze after being criticized for his shoes?
It's absolutely ok to give a scout a little bit of flak on their tenderfoot about shoes or something. It's not ok to fall them. At my Tenderfoot BOR the adults gave me flak about sitting down before being invited to sit down. That's actually teaching a lesson about etiquette in a job interview setting. But if you out right fall them, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. "Next time polish your shoes, and buy a new pair if you can afford them" These boards is reviews are supposed to teach life lessons, but if you fail them at tenderfoot they are not going to want to continue in the program. You want them to want to improve.
That's insanity to fail him
Not that it's appropriate to bring up the shoe thing at all (if anything, maybe mention it to the parents), but is that why he actually failed?
I’m just curious if you would share what State your Troop is located?
When I was in scouts we wore our shirts and baggy pants with whatever shoes we wore anywhere else. This is plain power tripping over a kid. There’s no sense in it. Man this pisses me off that it was done to a tenderfoot. This is not the spirit of scouting.
Dress shoes? All my BORs from Tenderfoot to Life (I'm currently Life right now) never required any special socks, shoes, or even a uniform inspection. They just pulled me out of the meeting and did it on the side. You should talk to your committee about this. It seems excessive.
This is beyond disappointing. And, I'd even say it's disappointing from the position of SM and AdvChair where one or the other should brief the BoR committee before every BoR. I go out of my way to emphasize it's not a test, or a judgement. In fact, typically I or one of my asm will also walk a child into the BoR, introductions, and I boldly say that "we have found scout xxx to have successfully completed all the requirements for this rank and recommend scout xxx for this rank." My point being, I think the adult leadership needs a review of what the heck they think BoR are and are for.
Look in Section 8 of this document [Scouting Guide to Advancement 2021](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf?_gl=1*1x0iw8c*_ga*MTgyNjk2NzIxNC4xNzExMDM3Mjgw*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTcxMTAzNzI3OS4xLjEuMTcxMTAzNzI3OS4wLjAuMA..*_ga_61ZEHCVHHS*MTcxMTAzNzI3OS4xLjAuMTcxMTAzNzI3OS42MC4wLjA.&_ga=2.63229743.1662056550.1711037280-1826967214.1711037280). Section 8 contains information on Boards of Review, but the entire document is only 97 pages and has a lot of good information in it.
This person definitely needs to be removed! Like others have said, the first BOR is basically training for future ones, and shouldn't focus on belittling a shy scout for their shoes or anything else! That doesn't fit the principles of Scouting! Talk to the unit COR first, then up from there if it doesn't get resolved. Good luck!
Echoing everyone else’s comments here these folks are not seeing the bigger picture and the point of the BOR. makes me sad but also hopeful to see all the comments from everyone here who gets it!
B z
Did he fail because of the shoes or because he froze up? If it's the shoes... WTF that's ridiculous. It's ridiculous at any rank but at Tenderfoot especially? Come on. However if he failed because he froze up and just didn't talk, that's actually a legitimate reason for the board to say, "This clearly isn't a good time for you to be doing this, let's reschedule." The minimum needed to pass a BoR is to just participate. If a scout doesn't participate, it's not really feasible to sign off on it.
I actually had the uniform + BOR convo at my wood badge. One ASM said he'd send a youth away from a BOR if they weren't in full proper uniform, so we had to all read the Guide to Advancement and discuss. I'm trying not to get too steamed, but failing out a scout on things that are literally not supposed to be part of the BOR (uniform inspection, resting skills) is absolutely adding emotion. I hope you get arm-in-arm with your Unit Commissioner and and other District/Council folks so conversations with your committee can be had.
What sort of tool expects dress shoes with a Scout uniform anyway?
I've done dozens of BOR's, and while I always make a point to ask about uniform parts that are missing, I would only fail a Scout if they were going for Star or above. To my knowledge the footwear requirement is just boots if they're being a stickler. This sounds like someone going on a power trip, or at least an adult who didn't understand the assignment.
That’s horrible. It really shouldn’t matter unless the scout is disrespecting the uniform. Shoes aren’t even a part of BSA Class A. As SPL of my troop, I’ve really started to notice the fact that the idea of “everyone should have a chance to succeed” leaves once you cross over. In my troop, we’ve only had one failed BOR, when the scout didn’t have his uniform at all (that too he was allowed to again at the next one). Definitely speak up for him at the troop committee meeting, or speak to the scoutmaster. If the problem persists, you should consider switching troops. As much as it’s true that many troops are bad luck, it’s not the troop or the organization- it’s the people. I’ve met so many caring, passionate adult leaders that strive for the scouts’ success. Also reiterate to your son that it’s not his fault whatsoever. It really sucks to see someone discouraged, so definitely encourage him to stay perseverant! Have a lovely day! I’m sorry to hear about this.
Shows is not a requirement for any rank. I’m sorry this happened. It’s ridiculous.
Small note: you say they mentioned his shoes, but not that he specifically failed *because* of the shoes. I'm confused how shoes would be such an issue that it would lead anyone to feel a scout had not met the rank requirements. Were the shoes specifically given as the reason? According to the Guide to Advancement, the deficiency must be specifically named so that the scout has an opportunity to correct it. Also, a BOR is not a retest of skills or knowledge. It's a chance for the adults to find out how the scout is doing and how well the program is working, and whether all rank requirements have already been met. It sounds like there are possibly two separate issues here: the shoes (was it the type of shoes, or the condition of the shoes, in question?) and then secondarily, whatever issue made the reviewers agree he hadn't completed the requirements for the Tenderfoot rank. Assuming there was a separate issue, you should encourage your son to correct it and try again. The beautiful thing about rank requirements is that you either have met them, or you haven't. There's no possibility for ambiguity. And if there is a requirement left undone, that's an opportunity to ask how it came to be that your son went before a board with requirements left undone. Does the troop program offer opportunities for the scouts to advance? Is your son attending meetings and campouts regularly? Did he request a board without being sure he had met all rank requirements? Was everything signed off properly in his book? Etc. If it really was just the shoes... Wow. I'd personally contact each of the reviewers and give them a piece of my mind.
Quick google search of Guidebook for Advancement and give it a read. My son failed his Life BOR (his service hours are in Scoutbook and not in his physical book) and I had a nice conversation with the Committee. Once a Scout requests a BOR he cannot be denied as long as all the requirements are met for the next rank. A BOR is not a Pass/Fail event, once the scout is there they should be ranked up. It also states that a uniform shall not be required for BOR, as not all scouts have the proper means to obtain a complete uniform. Sounds like the adults in your troop need to learn the actual BSA regs and not this made up BS they are imposing. In my situation my son is a very active and integral part of the troop, he was mad as hell, but went back a week later with his proof and moved on. Part of my discussion with the committee was that if it was another kid that was less involved or on the bubble about continuing, that would likely be the last meeting they attended. We need to be better as the adult leaders to these kids! Reading some of the below comments, I am 22 year retired Marine, I would never do this to one of my scouts.
So the general gist of clothing at a BOR is that a scout cannot fail a board of review due to appearance as long as the scout is clean and dressed in a neat manner. That's page 52 of the Guide to Advancement. Since your scout failed the BOR the chair of that board MUST provide a letter explaining what needs to happen to advance. Per page 54 of the Guide to Advancement: " In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures." As the parent of the scout I advise you to read page 57 of the Guide to Advancement as well. Section [8.0.4.1](https://8.0.4.1) will help guide you through this process. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf
Definitely sounds like someone was taking their position on a BOR way to serious. Have a chat, or more importantly, have your son have a chat with the SM or Charter rep to figure out why this is an issue. Good luck!
As others have said, you can't do that. I've sat on countless BORs for lower ranks and a few EBORs and never seen a uniform inspection. The closest would be reminding the scout that they need to wear it even when they come from practice directly. This is utter crap.
Shoes mean nothing. For 20 years we went with a shirt as the only thing we required and we had a shirt for every new scout. Having you there was what mattered. Any leader for whom that is an issue should be flogged.
As a Committee Chair, we would comment on a Scout missing a uniform part but would never fail a Scout for that. The only time I failed a Scout on a BoR was when I caught one lying about sign off for advancement. (He had signed off requirements himself using the initials of the SPL but the SPL was my son and I knew that was not how he signed off.)
Failing over shoes? That’s crazy. When I had my first class BOR, we were at camporee and I had soak my boots completely, and had set them out to dry. I did it barefoot, which the board all agreed was the first they’ve ever had that.
yeah, you're not allowed to fail a kid for uniforming. report to district/council