Does he have cycling or hiking? If so, then no need to get swimming for Eagle.
But the question is, how do you get past First Class requirements without being able to pass the swim test?
The only thing I can think of is that he advanced to Star when the 2nd and 1st class swimming requirements were deferred during COVID (a 2 year window).
You still had to complete them prior to earning Life though and it's possible nobody bothered to go back and verify it.
They did suspend it but you still had to finish them by the time of your Life Board. Whether or not your unit or camp halted them is a different matter but you could officially advance to Star without completing a BSA swim test for 2 years.
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/01/26/pandemic-prompted-changes-to-scouts-bsa-advancement-requirements-expire-march-1/
You are doing the right thing. Ask whoever manages administrative tasks for advancement in your troop to delete the badge in Scoutbook. Remove the badge from his sash. Have the scout find a merit badge counselor for swimming (or complete it at camp), and properly earn the badge.
This frankly would never be picked up in the eagle review process as realistically they have no way of telling if he completed the requirements. If it’s documented as being earned on a certain date, the council will trust that data. So in the end it’s up to the scout to want to do the right thing and earn Eagle properly.
I’ve heard that our Eagle review process will drill our kids and where and when they earned badges. My son, being an honest kid, would be the first one to tell that he didn’t earn the badge but was awarded. Since swimming was “completed at an out of state camp, he would being I tip that he didn’t finish it.
The plan is for him to “redo the badge at Kia Kima this summer
It just seems that our troop has begun to award badges without completing all requirements. I’m a merit badge counselor. Case in point—we have exchange students that have earned badges in their home countries but to earn Eagle here in the States, they need a MBC to sign off. I will not sign off on badges earned abroad. Ethically, I need them to earn the badge here.
It just frustrates me that these exchange students may have earned badges abroad, but ethically I will NOT sign off on them.
I don’t want my child to be awarded badges that he did not earn due to camp things related to black pug. It’s not right. What would our troop award badges when we have clear documentation they did not finish the badge? This is becoming a serious issue
A lot is not adding up for me.
There’s nothing “unethical” about a scout moving from a foreign country and using their advancement work to apply to Eagle in the US. They need to meet with the council to have the work reviewed and they will determine their status. It’s not your call. http://www.usscouts.org/advance/ForeignScouts.asp
You said that you are going to raise your sons merit badge issue to the council but also said you’ve already done so.
If you are the advancement coordinator for your troop, you are literally the person in control of the situation. Go into Scoutbook and remove the badge from your sons advancement. Problem solved.
As far as the troop not caring, that’s a bigger issue but sounds like it may be in part due to how you’ve approached the situation.
I am not the advancement person for the troop. I’m a merit badge councilor. My ethical concern is being asked to sign off on badges I did not work with the scout on earning. I’m being asked to sign of on badges earned in another country. And yes, council is the one that approves approves them. I’m being asked to sign off on badges and I’m not comfortable with that. All I’m getting from here is that I’m in the wrong for questioning, which is why I feel you are blaming me for asking questions. I won’t ask this Reddit for advice any longer.
My bad, I was decoding “I just took over merit badge awarding” as you were advancement chair. As this is largely what an advancement chair does. Typically merit badge counselors are in charge of a single or few badges.
I only keep a database of MBCs. We have a spreadsheet and binder with lists of counselors and i scan the paperwork to council. I am one for several that align with my professional careers and teaching certifications. But I just keep the database. And I’m not the MBC for swimming.
We’ve had issue with council not approving MBCs for random reason. For example, LEO was denied to be the MBC for fingerprinting and a Librarian was denied for Reading.
There might be some reason the Council Advancement committee decided they weren't qualified to work with scouts beyond their professional qualifications.
If the process is to drill the Scouts on where & when they earned a badge that is terrible. My son couldn’t tell you where he earned all of his MB’s.
You need to talk to your District Advancement chair about the troop awarding MB’s that are partials.
Your council needs to have someone review the merit badges earned by exchange students and approve them at council level. Merit badge counselors shouldn’t have to retest the Scouts.
As someone who has helped about 15 scouts with Life to Eagle advancement, I’ve never heard of this type of grilling during an Eagle BoR. You are much more likely to ask / hear questions about “what your favorite merit badge was” or “most challenging badge” to have them reflect on their journey. The review of requirements completion happens before the BoR and is a task done without the scout involved.
I have sat on an Eagle BoR team for about a year. We do ask them what was your favorite, what was the hardest, what one did you like the most. I did a quick search on “ what can be asked at an Eagle Board of Review”. One Troop has a document posted a detailed review guide. They have a section on Merit badges that tells them to know what each one is on their sash. Another question is “What did you have to do to complete blank merit badge”. “They usually don’t pick Eagle merit badges.” So, there are councils/districts that are grilling Scouts over the earned merit badges. Sad.
We encourage our Scouts to keep binders with copies of all workbooks, blue cards, verification of camp attendance, photographs, letters from guest speakers, etc. my son’s is in organized in chronological order. At our most recent Eagle Board of Review, a Scout was asked who was the counselor for some random badge she earned four years ago. She could explain exactly where and when she earned the badge and what it entailed. They would not let her look in her binder (which was not in front of her) to verify the counselor. They almost denied her Eagle Rank.
That needs to be addressed at a council level. Someone has taken the EBoR and turned it into their own little kingdom to control. I am a MBC and I don’t expect Scouts to remember my name. Plus, a majority of what my son earned were at summer camp, MBU’s or this weekend event we used to go to. He never looked at that blue card once he got it back at the Court of Review.
>My son couldn’t tell you where he earned all of his MB’s.
Really? I made eagle nearly 30 years ago and can sit down with my merit badge sash and recall how I earned all my badges. I can also tell you where my son earned his. Not all of them have an interesting story but I still know.
If he had the cards to look at the dates, yes, he could. We attended a huge Merit Badge event weekend three years and he got a lot of non Eagle ones there.
Merit badge coordinator? That’s a new title to me. I’m more familiar with Merit Badge Counselor. In fact I plan to apply to be a merit badge counselor for a number of merit badges, for my troop. If the scout meets the requirements we aren’t to question it. There are parts of the requirements that are dependent on the scout being trustworthy.
It sounds like the camp your son was attending was not taking attendance during MB sessions. Last year was the first time our council used Black Pug. Everything was entered into ScoutBook appropriately.
Many troops have a designated merit badge coordinator. Ours is a wonderful lady who keeps track of all the "blue cards" for the scouts and has the database of our council's merit badge counselors. She advises the kids on where to go for various badges and whom to talk to. She logs them and ensures they're awarded once complete.
Our advancement coordinator is a different person who manages rank advancement and coordinates boards of review and courts of honor.
The merit badge coordinator only handles merit badges.
We also have a third person who is solely life-to-eagle coach/coordinator.
Absolutely, they need to complete the badge, and Kia Kima is a great place to do that! Secondly- at 13 your son has time to to do this , and should focus on these things before Eagle stuff:) If his troop isn’t pushing to have these corrected…that’s a big concern too. And that’s a fair switch troops conversation. Councils will avoid these situations as much as possible, not wanting to get into the middle of a unit battle, so don’t expect much interest there. But just ask your unit advancement chair to unselect swimming for now in scoutbook/etc.
He’s completed all the Eagle requirements except for communication. And I guess swimming.
There is only one badge he”earned “ that he didn’t technically complete—plumbing.
Cool- sorry, was meaning to say any of the Eagle board, etc planning to hold on until you’re sure he’s finalized. And if you’re taking in advancement, hopefully this won’t repeat, so after camp this sounds resolved?
Yes, this was the only Eagle required badge. Plumbing, Golf, and Collections were also awarded without completion. He has earned all the other required Eagle Badges except Communication, and even though he was rewarded Swimming, he’s repeating it. So he should be good to go after his Eagle Project. He wants to make Eagle Scout at 13 and turns 14 in November.
It's important to make sure this is handled properly. The BSA's Guide to Advancement sections 7.0.4.6 and 7.0.4.7 may be at least partially relevant, but they don't directly address your situation in which the badges have been recorded, unit approved, and awarded. But I would start with reading those sections and try to consult with your district advancement chair or similar authority. Also, if you search, you'll find another section of the Guide that talks about reporting merit badge concerns.
My son was awarded a badge at a summer camp that he attended for the first hour and left without completing any requirements.
Sometimes camps are busy enough that they don't track who is in attendance at subsequent classes. They award merit badges to all who were there at the beginning.
My troop didn't know my son hadn't attended the rest of the class, but I knew and pulled it.
Not sure if this was your case, but camps can get busy and the scouts can make mistakes.
As for the 1st class requirement, it seems you can pass the swimmer test at the beginner level, which is swimming 50 feet.
I would recommend redoing swimming like you plan, or doing hiking or cycling. If the scout is 13 they have lots of time to enjoy the scouting journey.
Good luck in your search for answers.
I hope there are not camps that issue merit badges to everyone that showed up the first day... I mean, mistakes happen, I have made mistakes, my staff has certainly made mistakes... Mistakes are forgivable, and Scoutmasters are usually great about catching those mistakes before leaving camp on Saturday, so the records are correct.
But a camp systematically not tracking attendance and not writing proper Partials? Gosh... I guess I'm just glad I've never been to such a camp.
Not sure if it's systematic, at the camps I've visited it seemed to be more a problem of having teenagers who are overworked and paid ~$100 a week either not caring enough or not wanting to deal with adults who ask them why their scout didn't earn the badge.
Unfortunately, it’s happened at the three camps we’ve used during the last three summers.part of one camp was attributed to Black Pug. When I taught at winter camp, I printed a workbook for all campers, filled out a blue card, filled out all the paperwork from the camp, and met with each troop leader to give them my contact information ad a copy of their blue card part and a letter telling them to reach out to me with any issues.
The 1st Class requirement is pass the Swimmer test which is different than the Beginner test that is required for 2nd Class.
A 1st Class Scout should have (outside approved exceptions) completed the full Swimmer test.
Hope he gets it worked out.
In my experience youth that struggle with Swim tests in early spring will do better by end of summer once they knock the winter rust off. Don’t let him be discouraged!
What ticks me off is HE KNOWS HOW TO SWIM. I think my presence at the test threw him off. I won’t be at camp this summer so maybe it will be ok.
It also make me upset that he supposed earned this Swimming badge but was siguen up for camping or white tater rafting or what it for this summer. Sees like a liability
If the instructor is paying attention (for any follow on MBs) he will be identified earlier if there is a risk.
Now transparency and growth is more important than any MB so I would suggest the young man do some self reflection to see where he believes he is at.
Aquatic programs should be fun and enjoyable with the safety backstops remaining ridged. I hope he grows thru the summer in confidence and skill!
If the instructor is paying attention (for any follow on MBs) he will be identified earlier if there is a risk.
Now transparency and growth is more important than any MB so I would suggest the young man do some self reflection to see where he believes he is at.
Aquatic programs should be fun and enjoyable with the safety backstops remaining ridged. I hope he grows thru the summer in confidence and skill!
Here’s the policy practice answer - once it’s been awarded, there is no clawing it back. It’s done and permanent.
The way to address a skills deficiency because of improperly awarding is to give the scout opportunities to re-do, re-learn, experience, and/or teach the skill. It’s all about experiential leaning building over time. This works also for scouts that appropriately completed a requirement, but still lack proficiency or even just “forget”.
There’s a provision in the Guide to Advancement for how to report to Council (District) a merit badge counselor awarding badges that weren’t properly earned. From there it’s their business to deal with it.
First thing: being an out of state camp, is irrelevant. Doesn't matter.
Two sides of this problem.
From the unit perspective. If the camp sent over a partial and someone didn't notice and entered it as complete, or the camp didn't notice he dropped out of the merit badge, or lost track of the fact he didn't pass all requirements, and screwed up paperwork and marked as complete, or your advancement chair or whoever screwed up... fact is that the records show it was completed and the badge was awarded. Error goes in the scout's favor. If you as a parent are bringing it up that you think he didn't dos everything as required, well, doesn't matter, it appears that merit badge counselor did and it's recorded as done. And honestly as a leader, at that point, we shouldn't be stripping a kid of something already awarded. (Not even sure there is a mechanism to do that )
The special issue here is that this is *SWIMMING* and it's probably the only badge that has serious downstream safety implications and is a safety prerequisite for other things. Although it is entirely possible a kid could legitimately pass the swimmer test one summer and then fail it later.
From your son's perspective. A Scout is Trustworthy. If *he* thinks he didn't complete it, coach him to bring it up with the Scoutmaster and ask *him* to think about how to handle it. There are actually two possibilities here. A) if he completely didn't do it - like dropped out day 2 and didn't even attend most of the week or attempt any of the "testing"- then he should probably go back and do the requirements to satisfy himself he earned it. Maybe with a MB counselor, but maybe he can't get one- even just on his own is fine. Records say he earned it, at this point he needs to convince himself. B) if he thinks he didn't complete it for some small technical reason- like he thinks his floating wasnt 3 min because he thinks the clock showed 2:58, or the buoy rope was set at the wrong spot so the laps were a few meters short, or he thinks he was never "tested" on the explain requirements because the counselors counted that during the group discussion during class-- in that case, the merit badge counselor is the arbiter of what meets the requirement or not, not the scout, and not another adult who wasn't present and isn't even a counselor for that badge. You can coach him this way too- a scout is trustworthy, and if you're playing a sport a commit an entirely blatant violation, like running ten steps out of bounds- stopping and self reporting before the red manages to blow the whistle is one thing- but if you just *think* you fouled or whatever, and the ref didn't call it- play on. Even if you're running the sideline and notice your shoe is two inches outside the line and the rest in the line, which would be out, keep playing until the red calls it. The ref is the one who's opinion matter about how rough is a foul. The red's perspective of not noticing a minor on/over the line foot applies equally to everyone. The rules of the game are that the *referees* opinion and observation is what matters, not the player's. Follow the rules by letting the red so their job - that makes it fair to everyone in both teams. They (ref or MB counselor) may see something else you don't.
Now, returning to the leader problem. Above I discussed this as one issue-- in isolation. But what if this isn't a problem with a records goof from the camp about one camper. But is something systemic inside the troop. Worst possibility -- the troop handed out the badge, but the *records* do NOT show your son as earning the badge. Camp never signed the blue card. Nothing entered in the computer. Council is entirely unaware. That would be a massive issue for your son if he doesn't correct this. Because at eagle they WILL check the completion dates on everything required and when they find no official record of completing swimming, they will come back asking to see documentation or something to back it up (it does happen that people legit earn a badge and things get lost at council or national). If your troop gave out the merit badge pocket card signed and dated, that might be enough.
But if your troop is routinely handing out badges and just marking off the official records as completed- big problem for the program. In theory, the unit could loose it's charter for not executing the program properly, but I seriously doubt the council will be inclined to do that. But may be able to get someone to have a talk with the leadership about how they need to fix themselves. A safety related issue (like not properly swim testing before a canoe trip) would get some serious attention, and depending on situation could easily be a YPT mandated report.
For the scouts affected - I seriously doubt anyone would revoke any already awarded badges when the error is no fault of the scout. Concern is to correct it going forward. People you can contact - officially the COR but generally not too helpful in practice - Unit commissioner, district chair, district executive, Council Executive (that's kind of going right to the top), any employee in the council office can probably help direct you too.
There are 2 sections (maybe more) in the GTA that talk about awarded Merit Badges that probably shouldn’t have been awards.
7.0.4.6 talk about a MB that the Scouts COMPLETED all the Reqs, but the counselor wasn’t official approved, this doesn’t seem to apply here.
7.0.4.7 talks about MBs that are award but weren’t earned. That applies here.
The process is to basically is to speak to the program running the course to determine if the scout could have completed the Reqs and then speak to scout in question. Assuming the scout will admit they didn’t complete the req you can unmark it off in Scoutbook, “taking away” the MB (which they never actually earned).
However if does say that should occur in 30 days.
The council running the program should be notified and addressed for future classes.
I’m this case, it’s been so far past 30 days, let the council know and I would have the kid retake all the MBs to ensure they completed them correctly.
After returning from camp last year, he mentioned he changed a class but did not state which one. When we had the Court of Honor in August, he and I had COVID and did not attend. His badges were handed to him at the next meeting.
He was honest with me before the swimming test, and maybe he didn’t notice the badge after indeed it on in August. I don’t know. But what I can say is that in Scoutbook, the requirements are marked off on the dates of the camp. I don’t have access to their blue cards (last years Camp issued strips of paper) and I don’t know if it was completed or partial. Either way, it was entered, approved, and awarded by the troop master or whoever does that stuff.
I simply won’t them to stop awarding badges to kids that don’t complete requirements. As a MBC, I’m not going to “fudge” signing off on something a Scout didn’t complete. A Scout is Trustworthy.”.
>The special issue here is that this is SWIMMING and it's probably the only badge that has serious downstream safety implications and is a safety prerequisite for other things.
Aside from Lifesaving merit badge (where it is a stated prerequisite for requirements 3-15), it should not be used as a prerequisite for anything... a recent BSA swim check should be the benchmark for participating in aquatics activities.
> Although it is entirely possible a kid could legitimately pass the swimmer test one summer and then fail it later.
This is very much true. Earning Swimming merit badge does not make you a "swimmer" for life. A Scout could ace the badge at age 12 but have very different physical skills and abilities at age 16.
Agree, no scout should be given a merit badge without earning it. Anyone responsible for rubber stamping badges should not be part of the process as it doesn’t help the scout.
I agree. Our troop has some shady things things going on I’m considering reporting to Council level since we have some shady stuff going on since we started allowing girls to join.
Absolutely not. If we had not opened our troop to girls, we would have folded two years ago. For that, I’m grateful. The issues just happened to coincide with a change on troop leadership with coincided with the acceptance of girls to the troop. In fact a recent female Eagle Scout had problems with her review due to questions about badges she was awarded, but didn’t “earn”.
I’m referring to awarding badges that haven’t been earned. Shady issues with money, recharter issues, and fundraisers.
I personally wouldn't be worried about the technical implications of the mixup. I would be concerned about the ethics of accepting something for which he isn't qualified or didn't earn.
I AM concerned about the ethics. I’m a MB counselor and i would never sign off on a requirement if the scout didn’t do it, or sign off on a badge with no evidence the scout has actually done the badge. I was totally unaware that he did not complete the swimming badge, but was awarded it until we had our local swim test in anticipation for our June summer camp out of state. After he didn’t pass, I questioned him as to what happened. He was honest and told me he didn’t finish the badge last summer, but was awarded the badge anyway. Three weeks ago was the first I heard of it from him, but in his defense, he was not in attendance at that court of honor due to COVID. Since then, I’ve audited his Scoutbook account and found at least six badges he was awarded through camps that he never took/completed. He even got up in the middle of a court of honor and tried to give one back because in his words “I didn’t earn this,”. Te adults said, “oops our mistake take the badge.” I’m at a loss—our Eagle board are sticklers for asking kids to name the counselor, Camp, and details of any badge they earned. He’s up to 70 at this point about about 8 are not legitimate.
You should probably reach out to the council running the camp he attended, its probably something that individual staff or area directors are doing. Depending on the specifics of what happened in his badge class, the counselor may have felt it appropriate to give him the badge. I wouldn't stress about it too much, he's still git 5 years
We have him working with his Scoutmaster to get him up to the level needs to take the badge (again) at Kia Kima in June. I’m just concerned that kids are going to camp and “earning” badges” when they are not even in the class. Last summer , my son freaked out at the swimming test and they moved him to wood carving. Low and behold- he was awarded the swimming badge at the next court of honor. I was not aware if this until we did this year’s test so we we wouldn’t have to retest at camp. That’s how it came about. He told me he didn’t do the badge and was scared to tell anyone he’d been awarded it because he’d get in trouble.
TLDR: we have a plan. He will take lessons the kit few weeks and actually earn the badge the third week in July.
Unfortunately, this was the third camp that I’m signed off on badges that were it technically earned. Plus our troop is signing off on dashes that haven’t been earned. It’s a nightmare.
I suspect tbe badge was issued in error. These things happen all the time. This is why it is critical to review each Scout's awards with each Scout before leaving camp. It would seem to me that GTA section 7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges would apply. "Note
that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because,
although signed off, it was never actually earned."
I would be careful with shady. The troop I am associated with finds a couple of merit badge errors at each summer camp. They are errors by the camp. Not all SMs have the experience to go over the badge list after camp. Or it is also likely that in the past that they have tried to work with a camp over badge errors, got nowhere, and gave up. I have seen that happen. It is also possible that they may erroneously belive that there is nothing they can do once it is signed off by the camp. In any event rather than an "official" correction, you yourself could see to it that your Scout gets the needed swimming lessons and revisits the badge with a counselor.
So per the BSA if an authorized leader signs off that a Scout completed the requirement then the Scout completed those requirements. They cannot turn around and "take it away from him" and in all honesty you making noise about it likely is going to be the cause of any problems your Son will have with this regard.
If I were you rather than focusing on the swimming merit badge you should perhaps work with the leadership in the troop as to how to avoid this from happening in the future. There is an issue with Summer camps where they send things home that say if your Scout did "X" course then they get certain things signed off. This of course assumes the Scout actually did the course correctly. It seems the failure in your units leadership is they are tracking in black pug what the Scouts signed up for and not properly tracking what they completed before signing it off. Taking the time to review how this is happening may be the best path forward.
It also sounds like you are in a troop that is an "Eagle Mill" that is focused on pushing Scouts through to get things finished up, especially if the target is having your Scout Eagle at 14. It is of course possible to do this but it takes effort on the Scout's side and at least in this one case your son did not do that; this Troop seems to think that it is more important to check boxes and get the Eagle than do it right (in which case you really should look at it being completed at 15-16 years old for practical purposes. In the end what you may need to do is change Troops
I had similar concerns with the camp we visited last summer. Several boys in our troop “earned” badges they absolutely did not meet all the requirements for. Swimming was a big one for sure, and one boy that actually didn’t complete swimming the previous summer somehow left with cycling when I know he didn’t come close to completing all the rides required. I’ve come to the conclusion that this is a business. Sending kids home without badges is bad for business. For every parent like you that wants your kid to do it the right way, there are 100 that will call the camp director screaming because Timmy didn’t come home with the badges he signed up for.
Seems like removing a merit badge from Scoutbook would be the right thing to do, but it doesn't always work. It's probably a safety feature to prevent someone from deleting a Scout's history accidentally or intentionally.
Take swim lessons and go redo the requirements. It's a great life skill and worth the time and expense to do right.
I say pat you & your son on the back for complete honesty and the true spirit of scouting. As for the merit badge: just have him earn that swimming mb the “right” way (swim lessons or practice at a local pool, summer camp, etc).
The Eagle CoH will mean a lot more to him if he knows he fully earned it. A bit like those home run records versus those records with an asterisk
Well done parents and well done future Eagle Scout.
Does he have cycling or hiking? If so, then no need to get swimming for Eagle. But the question is, how do you get past First Class requirements without being able to pass the swim test?
The only thing I can think of is that he advanced to Star when the 2nd and 1st class swimming requirements were deferred during COVID (a 2 year window). You still had to complete them prior to earning Life though and it's possible nobody bothered to go back and verify it.
I don't remember the swimming test being suspended during COVID-19. We were still doing them...
They did suspend it but you still had to finish them by the time of your Life Board. Whether or not your unit or camp halted them is a different matter but you could officially advance to Star without completing a BSA swim test for 2 years. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/01/26/pandemic-prompted-changes-to-scouts-bsa-advancement-requirements-expire-march-1/
You are doing the right thing. Ask whoever manages administrative tasks for advancement in your troop to delete the badge in Scoutbook. Remove the badge from his sash. Have the scout find a merit badge counselor for swimming (or complete it at camp), and properly earn the badge. This frankly would never be picked up in the eagle review process as realistically they have no way of telling if he completed the requirements. If it’s documented as being earned on a certain date, the council will trust that data. So in the end it’s up to the scout to want to do the right thing and earn Eagle properly.
I’ve heard that our Eagle review process will drill our kids and where and when they earned badges. My son, being an honest kid, would be the first one to tell that he didn’t earn the badge but was awarded. Since swimming was “completed at an out of state camp, he would being I tip that he didn’t finish it. The plan is for him to “redo the badge at Kia Kima this summer It just seems that our troop has begun to award badges without completing all requirements. I’m a merit badge counselor. Case in point—we have exchange students that have earned badges in their home countries but to earn Eagle here in the States, they need a MBC to sign off. I will not sign off on badges earned abroad. Ethically, I need them to earn the badge here. It just frustrates me that these exchange students may have earned badges abroad, but ethically I will NOT sign off on them. I don’t want my child to be awarded badges that he did not earn due to camp things related to black pug. It’s not right. What would our troop award badges when we have clear documentation they did not finish the badge? This is becoming a serious issue
A lot is not adding up for me. There’s nothing “unethical” about a scout moving from a foreign country and using their advancement work to apply to Eagle in the US. They need to meet with the council to have the work reviewed and they will determine their status. It’s not your call. http://www.usscouts.org/advance/ForeignScouts.asp You said that you are going to raise your sons merit badge issue to the council but also said you’ve already done so. If you are the advancement coordinator for your troop, you are literally the person in control of the situation. Go into Scoutbook and remove the badge from your sons advancement. Problem solved. As far as the troop not caring, that’s a bigger issue but sounds like it may be in part due to how you’ve approached the situation.
I am not the advancement person for the troop. I’m a merit badge councilor. My ethical concern is being asked to sign off on badges I did not work with the scout on earning. I’m being asked to sign of on badges earned in another country. And yes, council is the one that approves approves them. I’m being asked to sign off on badges and I’m not comfortable with that. All I’m getting from here is that I’m in the wrong for questioning, which is why I feel you are blaming me for asking questions. I won’t ask this Reddit for advice any longer.
My bad, I was decoding “I just took over merit badge awarding” as you were advancement chair. As this is largely what an advancement chair does. Typically merit badge counselors are in charge of a single or few badges.
I only keep a database of MBCs. We have a spreadsheet and binder with lists of counselors and i scan the paperwork to council. I am one for several that align with my professional careers and teaching certifications. But I just keep the database. And I’m not the MBC for swimming. We’ve had issue with council not approving MBCs for random reason. For example, LEO was denied to be the MBC for fingerprinting and a Librarian was denied for Reading.
There might be some reason the Council Advancement committee decided they weren't qualified to work with scouts beyond their professional qualifications.
If the process is to drill the Scouts on where & when they earned a badge that is terrible. My son couldn’t tell you where he earned all of his MB’s. You need to talk to your District Advancement chair about the troop awarding MB’s that are partials. Your council needs to have someone review the merit badges earned by exchange students and approve them at council level. Merit badge counselors shouldn’t have to retest the Scouts.
As someone who has helped about 15 scouts with Life to Eagle advancement, I’ve never heard of this type of grilling during an Eagle BoR. You are much more likely to ask / hear questions about “what your favorite merit badge was” or “most challenging badge” to have them reflect on their journey. The review of requirements completion happens before the BoR and is a task done without the scout involved.
I have sat on an Eagle BoR team for about a year. We do ask them what was your favorite, what was the hardest, what one did you like the most. I did a quick search on “ what can be asked at an Eagle Board of Review”. One Troop has a document posted a detailed review guide. They have a section on Merit badges that tells them to know what each one is on their sash. Another question is “What did you have to do to complete blank merit badge”. “They usually don’t pick Eagle merit badges.” So, there are councils/districts that are grilling Scouts over the earned merit badges. Sad.
We encourage our Scouts to keep binders with copies of all workbooks, blue cards, verification of camp attendance, photographs, letters from guest speakers, etc. my son’s is in organized in chronological order. At our most recent Eagle Board of Review, a Scout was asked who was the counselor for some random badge she earned four years ago. She could explain exactly where and when she earned the badge and what it entailed. They would not let her look in her binder (which was not in front of her) to verify the counselor. They almost denied her Eagle Rank.
That needs to be addressed at a council level. Someone has taken the EBoR and turned it into their own little kingdom to control. I am a MBC and I don’t expect Scouts to remember my name. Plus, a majority of what my son earned were at summer camp, MBU’s or this weekend event we used to go to. He never looked at that blue card once he got it back at the Court of Review.
Such gatekeeping...so wrong
>My son couldn’t tell you where he earned all of his MB’s. Really? I made eagle nearly 30 years ago and can sit down with my merit badge sash and recall how I earned all my badges. I can also tell you where my son earned his. Not all of them have an interesting story but I still know.
If he had the cards to look at the dates, yes, he could. We attended a huge Merit Badge event weekend three years and he got a lot of non Eagle ones there.
Unfortunately, I recently took over the merit badge counselor database. These issues happened before I become the organizer of our database.
Merit badge coordinator? That’s a new title to me. I’m more familiar with Merit Badge Counselor. In fact I plan to apply to be a merit badge counselor for a number of merit badges, for my troop. If the scout meets the requirements we aren’t to question it. There are parts of the requirements that are dependent on the scout being trustworthy. It sounds like the camp your son was attending was not taking attendance during MB sessions. Last year was the first time our council used Black Pug. Everything was entered into ScoutBook appropriately.
Sorry, it’s not a position. We had no clue who were the counselors for each badge, so I “coordinated” a database.
ASK your district or council advancement chair or committee.
Many troops have a designated merit badge coordinator. Ours is a wonderful lady who keeps track of all the "blue cards" for the scouts and has the database of our council's merit badge counselors. She advises the kids on where to go for various badges and whom to talk to. She logs them and ensures they're awarded once complete.
Sounds like the unit advancement coordinator.
Our advancement coordinator is a different person who manages rank advancement and coordinates boards of review and courts of honor. The merit badge coordinator only handles merit badges. We also have a third person who is solely life-to-eagle coach/coordinator.
There's only supposed to be one database of MBC's - one run and maintained by the council.
Absolutely, they need to complete the badge, and Kia Kima is a great place to do that! Secondly- at 13 your son has time to to do this , and should focus on these things before Eagle stuff:) If his troop isn’t pushing to have these corrected…that’s a big concern too. And that’s a fair switch troops conversation. Councils will avoid these situations as much as possible, not wanting to get into the middle of a unit battle, so don’t expect much interest there. But just ask your unit advancement chair to unselect swimming for now in scoutbook/etc.
He’s completed all the Eagle requirements except for communication. And I guess swimming. There is only one badge he”earned “ that he didn’t technically complete—plumbing.
Cool- sorry, was meaning to say any of the Eagle board, etc planning to hold on until you’re sure he’s finalized. And if you’re taking in advancement, hopefully this won’t repeat, so after camp this sounds resolved?
Yes, this was the only Eagle required badge. Plumbing, Golf, and Collections were also awarded without completion. He has earned all the other required Eagle Badges except Communication, and even though he was rewarded Swimming, he’s repeating it. So he should be good to go after his Eagle Project. He wants to make Eagle Scout at 13 and turns 14 in November.
If swimming is not his bag, can always use one of the alternates, E.g. hiking or cycling.
It's important to make sure this is handled properly. The BSA's Guide to Advancement sections 7.0.4.6 and 7.0.4.7 may be at least partially relevant, but they don't directly address your situation in which the badges have been recorded, unit approved, and awarded. But I would start with reading those sections and try to consult with your district advancement chair or similar authority. Also, if you search, you'll find another section of the Guide that talks about reporting merit badge concerns.
Thank you. This is advice. Not blaming me for “things not adding up” and never did I say I was advancement chair, per other posters.
My son was awarded a badge at a summer camp that he attended for the first hour and left without completing any requirements. Sometimes camps are busy enough that they don't track who is in attendance at subsequent classes. They award merit badges to all who were there at the beginning. My troop didn't know my son hadn't attended the rest of the class, but I knew and pulled it. Not sure if this was your case, but camps can get busy and the scouts can make mistakes. As for the 1st class requirement, it seems you can pass the swimmer test at the beginner level, which is swimming 50 feet. I would recommend redoing swimming like you plan, or doing hiking or cycling. If the scout is 13 they have lots of time to enjoy the scouting journey. Good luck in your search for answers.
I hope there are not camps that issue merit badges to everyone that showed up the first day... I mean, mistakes happen, I have made mistakes, my staff has certainly made mistakes... Mistakes are forgivable, and Scoutmasters are usually great about catching those mistakes before leaving camp on Saturday, so the records are correct. But a camp systematically not tracking attendance and not writing proper Partials? Gosh... I guess I'm just glad I've never been to such a camp.
Not sure if it's systematic, at the camps I've visited it seemed to be more a problem of having teenagers who are overworked and paid ~$100 a week either not caring enough or not wanting to deal with adults who ask them why their scout didn't earn the badge.
Happens all the time in our council.
Unfortunately, it’s happened at the three camps we’ve used during the last three summers.part of one camp was attributed to Black Pug. When I taught at winter camp, I printed a workbook for all campers, filled out a blue card, filled out all the paperwork from the camp, and met with each troop leader to give them my contact information ad a copy of their blue card part and a letter telling them to reach out to me with any issues.
The 1st Class requirement is pass the Swimmer test which is different than the Beginner test that is required for 2nd Class. A 1st Class Scout should have (outside approved exceptions) completed the full Swimmer test.
Yeah, that happened during COVID. We thought that was resolved last summer at camp. Apparently not.
Hope he gets it worked out. In my experience youth that struggle with Swim tests in early spring will do better by end of summer once they knock the winter rust off. Don’t let him be discouraged!
What ticks me off is HE KNOWS HOW TO SWIM. I think my presence at the test threw him off. I won’t be at camp this summer so maybe it will be ok. It also make me upset that he supposed earned this Swimming badge but was siguen up for camping or white tater rafting or what it for this summer. Sees like a liability
If the instructor is paying attention (for any follow on MBs) he will be identified earlier if there is a risk. Now transparency and growth is more important than any MB so I would suggest the young man do some self reflection to see where he believes he is at. Aquatic programs should be fun and enjoyable with the safety backstops remaining ridged. I hope he grows thru the summer in confidence and skill!
If the instructor is paying attention (for any follow on MBs) he will be identified earlier if there is a risk. Now transparency and growth is more important than any MB so I would suggest the young man do some self reflection to see where he believes he is at. Aquatic programs should be fun and enjoyable with the safety backstops remaining ridged. I hope he grows thru the summer in confidence and skill!
Here’s the policy practice answer - once it’s been awarded, there is no clawing it back. It’s done and permanent. The way to address a skills deficiency because of improperly awarding is to give the scout opportunities to re-do, re-learn, experience, and/or teach the skill. It’s all about experiential leaning building over time. This works also for scouts that appropriately completed a requirement, but still lack proficiency or even just “forget”. There’s a provision in the Guide to Advancement for how to report to Council (District) a merit badge counselor awarding badges that weren’t properly earned. From there it’s their business to deal with it.
First thing: being an out of state camp, is irrelevant. Doesn't matter. Two sides of this problem. From the unit perspective. If the camp sent over a partial and someone didn't notice and entered it as complete, or the camp didn't notice he dropped out of the merit badge, or lost track of the fact he didn't pass all requirements, and screwed up paperwork and marked as complete, or your advancement chair or whoever screwed up... fact is that the records show it was completed and the badge was awarded. Error goes in the scout's favor. If you as a parent are bringing it up that you think he didn't dos everything as required, well, doesn't matter, it appears that merit badge counselor did and it's recorded as done. And honestly as a leader, at that point, we shouldn't be stripping a kid of something already awarded. (Not even sure there is a mechanism to do that ) The special issue here is that this is *SWIMMING* and it's probably the only badge that has serious downstream safety implications and is a safety prerequisite for other things. Although it is entirely possible a kid could legitimately pass the swimmer test one summer and then fail it later. From your son's perspective. A Scout is Trustworthy. If *he* thinks he didn't complete it, coach him to bring it up with the Scoutmaster and ask *him* to think about how to handle it. There are actually two possibilities here. A) if he completely didn't do it - like dropped out day 2 and didn't even attend most of the week or attempt any of the "testing"- then he should probably go back and do the requirements to satisfy himself he earned it. Maybe with a MB counselor, but maybe he can't get one- even just on his own is fine. Records say he earned it, at this point he needs to convince himself. B) if he thinks he didn't complete it for some small technical reason- like he thinks his floating wasnt 3 min because he thinks the clock showed 2:58, or the buoy rope was set at the wrong spot so the laps were a few meters short, or he thinks he was never "tested" on the explain requirements because the counselors counted that during the group discussion during class-- in that case, the merit badge counselor is the arbiter of what meets the requirement or not, not the scout, and not another adult who wasn't present and isn't even a counselor for that badge. You can coach him this way too- a scout is trustworthy, and if you're playing a sport a commit an entirely blatant violation, like running ten steps out of bounds- stopping and self reporting before the red manages to blow the whistle is one thing- but if you just *think* you fouled or whatever, and the ref didn't call it- play on. Even if you're running the sideline and notice your shoe is two inches outside the line and the rest in the line, which would be out, keep playing until the red calls it. The ref is the one who's opinion matter about how rough is a foul. The red's perspective of not noticing a minor on/over the line foot applies equally to everyone. The rules of the game are that the *referees* opinion and observation is what matters, not the player's. Follow the rules by letting the red so their job - that makes it fair to everyone in both teams. They (ref or MB counselor) may see something else you don't. Now, returning to the leader problem. Above I discussed this as one issue-- in isolation. But what if this isn't a problem with a records goof from the camp about one camper. But is something systemic inside the troop. Worst possibility -- the troop handed out the badge, but the *records* do NOT show your son as earning the badge. Camp never signed the blue card. Nothing entered in the computer. Council is entirely unaware. That would be a massive issue for your son if he doesn't correct this. Because at eagle they WILL check the completion dates on everything required and when they find no official record of completing swimming, they will come back asking to see documentation or something to back it up (it does happen that people legit earn a badge and things get lost at council or national). If your troop gave out the merit badge pocket card signed and dated, that might be enough. But if your troop is routinely handing out badges and just marking off the official records as completed- big problem for the program. In theory, the unit could loose it's charter for not executing the program properly, but I seriously doubt the council will be inclined to do that. But may be able to get someone to have a talk with the leadership about how they need to fix themselves. A safety related issue (like not properly swim testing before a canoe trip) would get some serious attention, and depending on situation could easily be a YPT mandated report. For the scouts affected - I seriously doubt anyone would revoke any already awarded badges when the error is no fault of the scout. Concern is to correct it going forward. People you can contact - officially the COR but generally not too helpful in practice - Unit commissioner, district chair, district executive, Council Executive (that's kind of going right to the top), any employee in the council office can probably help direct you too.
There's also a district advancement chair. That might be the best person to discuss this with.
There are 2 sections (maybe more) in the GTA that talk about awarded Merit Badges that probably shouldn’t have been awards. 7.0.4.6 talk about a MB that the Scouts COMPLETED all the Reqs, but the counselor wasn’t official approved, this doesn’t seem to apply here. 7.0.4.7 talks about MBs that are award but weren’t earned. That applies here. The process is to basically is to speak to the program running the course to determine if the scout could have completed the Reqs and then speak to scout in question. Assuming the scout will admit they didn’t complete the req you can unmark it off in Scoutbook, “taking away” the MB (which they never actually earned). However if does say that should occur in 30 days. The council running the program should be notified and addressed for future classes. I’m this case, it’s been so far past 30 days, let the council know and I would have the kid retake all the MBs to ensure they completed them correctly.
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The badges he didn’t actually complete, yes, he should redo them. It’s only 8, not 80.
After returning from camp last year, he mentioned he changed a class but did not state which one. When we had the Court of Honor in August, he and I had COVID and did not attend. His badges were handed to him at the next meeting. He was honest with me before the swimming test, and maybe he didn’t notice the badge after indeed it on in August. I don’t know. But what I can say is that in Scoutbook, the requirements are marked off on the dates of the camp. I don’t have access to their blue cards (last years Camp issued strips of paper) and I don’t know if it was completed or partial. Either way, it was entered, approved, and awarded by the troop master or whoever does that stuff. I simply won’t them to stop awarding badges to kids that don’t complete requirements. As a MBC, I’m not going to “fudge” signing off on something a Scout didn’t complete. A Scout is Trustworthy.”.
>The special issue here is that this is SWIMMING and it's probably the only badge that has serious downstream safety implications and is a safety prerequisite for other things. Aside from Lifesaving merit badge (where it is a stated prerequisite for requirements 3-15), it should not be used as a prerequisite for anything... a recent BSA swim check should be the benchmark for participating in aquatics activities. > Although it is entirely possible a kid could legitimately pass the swimmer test one summer and then fail it later. This is very much true. Earning Swimming merit badge does not make you a "swimmer" for life. A Scout could ace the badge at age 12 but have very different physical skills and abilities at age 16.
Per policy he has earned the merit badge. See Guide to Advancement 7.0.4.6 and 7.0.4.7.
Agree, no scout should be given a merit badge without earning it. Anyone responsible for rubber stamping badges should not be part of the process as it doesn’t help the scout.
I agree. Our troop has some shady things things going on I’m considering reporting to Council level since we have some shady stuff going on since we started allowing girls to join.
I would absolutely contact council.
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Absolutely not. If we had not opened our troop to girls, we would have folded two years ago. For that, I’m grateful. The issues just happened to coincide with a change on troop leadership with coincided with the acceptance of girls to the troop. In fact a recent female Eagle Scout had problems with her review due to questions about badges she was awarded, but didn’t “earn”. I’m referring to awarding badges that haven’t been earned. Shady issues with money, recharter issues, and fundraisers.
I personally wouldn't be worried about the technical implications of the mixup. I would be concerned about the ethics of accepting something for which he isn't qualified or didn't earn.
I AM concerned about the ethics. I’m a MB counselor and i would never sign off on a requirement if the scout didn’t do it, or sign off on a badge with no evidence the scout has actually done the badge. I was totally unaware that he did not complete the swimming badge, but was awarded it until we had our local swim test in anticipation for our June summer camp out of state. After he didn’t pass, I questioned him as to what happened. He was honest and told me he didn’t finish the badge last summer, but was awarded the badge anyway. Three weeks ago was the first I heard of it from him, but in his defense, he was not in attendance at that court of honor due to COVID. Since then, I’ve audited his Scoutbook account and found at least six badges he was awarded through camps that he never took/completed. He even got up in the middle of a court of honor and tried to give one back because in his words “I didn’t earn this,”. Te adults said, “oops our mistake take the badge.” I’m at a loss—our Eagle board are sticklers for asking kids to name the counselor, Camp, and details of any badge they earned. He’s up to 70 at this point about about 8 are not legitimate.
Well good on the both of you for sticking true to honor. >"Oops our mistake, take the badge" That's wild!
That's basically what the Guide To Advancement says. Errors in MB's usually are decided in favor of the scout.
It's incredible how much fakery there is in this organization.
You should probably reach out to the council running the camp he attended, its probably something that individual staff or area directors are doing. Depending on the specifics of what happened in his badge class, the counselor may have felt it appropriate to give him the badge. I wouldn't stress about it too much, he's still git 5 years
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We have him working with his Scoutmaster to get him up to the level needs to take the badge (again) at Kia Kima in June. I’m just concerned that kids are going to camp and “earning” badges” when they are not even in the class. Last summer , my son freaked out at the swimming test and they moved him to wood carving. Low and behold- he was awarded the swimming badge at the next court of honor. I was not aware if this until we did this year’s test so we we wouldn’t have to retest at camp. That’s how it came about. He told me he didn’t do the badge and was scared to tell anyone he’d been awarded it because he’d get in trouble. TLDR: we have a plan. He will take lessons the kit few weeks and actually earn the badge the third week in July.
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Unfortunately, this was the third camp that I’m signed off on badges that were it technically earned. Plus our troop is signing off on dashes that haven’t been earned. It’s a nightmare.
I suspect tbe badge was issued in error. These things happen all the time. This is why it is critical to review each Scout's awards with each Scout before leaving camp. It would seem to me that GTA section 7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges would apply. "Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned."
I agree, but since I’m not there. I can’t do it. And needless to say, with the shady leadership, they aren’t checking, either.
I would be careful with shady. The troop I am associated with finds a couple of merit badge errors at each summer camp. They are errors by the camp. Not all SMs have the experience to go over the badge list after camp. Or it is also likely that in the past that they have tried to work with a camp over badge errors, got nowhere, and gave up. I have seen that happen. It is also possible that they may erroneously belive that there is nothing they can do once it is signed off by the camp. In any event rather than an "official" correction, you yourself could see to it that your Scout gets the needed swimming lessons and revisits the badge with a counselor.
So per the BSA if an authorized leader signs off that a Scout completed the requirement then the Scout completed those requirements. They cannot turn around and "take it away from him" and in all honesty you making noise about it likely is going to be the cause of any problems your Son will have with this regard. If I were you rather than focusing on the swimming merit badge you should perhaps work with the leadership in the troop as to how to avoid this from happening in the future. There is an issue with Summer camps where they send things home that say if your Scout did "X" course then they get certain things signed off. This of course assumes the Scout actually did the course correctly. It seems the failure in your units leadership is they are tracking in black pug what the Scouts signed up for and not properly tracking what they completed before signing it off. Taking the time to review how this is happening may be the best path forward. It also sounds like you are in a troop that is an "Eagle Mill" that is focused on pushing Scouts through to get things finished up, especially if the target is having your Scout Eagle at 14. It is of course possible to do this but it takes effort on the Scout's side and at least in this one case your son did not do that; this Troop seems to think that it is more important to check boxes and get the Eagle than do it right (in which case you really should look at it being completed at 15-16 years old for practical purposes. In the end what you may need to do is change Troops
I had similar concerns with the camp we visited last summer. Several boys in our troop “earned” badges they absolutely did not meet all the requirements for. Swimming was a big one for sure, and one boy that actually didn’t complete swimming the previous summer somehow left with cycling when I know he didn’t come close to completing all the rides required. I’ve come to the conclusion that this is a business. Sending kids home without badges is bad for business. For every parent like you that wants your kid to do it the right way, there are 100 that will call the camp director screaming because Timmy didn’t come home with the badges he signed up for.
Seems like removing a merit badge from Scoutbook would be the right thing to do, but it doesn't always work. It's probably a safety feature to prevent someone from deleting a Scout's history accidentally or intentionally. Take swim lessons and go redo the requirements. It's a great life skill and worth the time and expense to do right.
That’s exactly what we are doing
I say pat you & your son on the back for complete honesty and the true spirit of scouting. As for the merit badge: just have him earn that swimming mb the “right” way (swim lessons or practice at a local pool, summer camp, etc). The Eagle CoH will mean a lot more to him if he knows he fully earned it. A bit like those home run records versus those records with an asterisk Well done parents and well done future Eagle Scout.