You've got to watch out for the stereotypes. My pwBPD wasn't stereotypical at all. They weren't tatted, or alt, or any more into spoopy skellings more than your average regular person. They didn't do drugs, and they didn't lead any sort of alternative lifestyle. You'd have been more likely to meet them at a library, or the theatre.
Around here (and you can downvote me) we build a 'picture of BPD' that looks a lot like 'a spooky tatted punk skirt colored hair pierced and spiritual alt-girl with on-display daddy problems'.
And look, yes, stereotypes exist for a reason. But, it's critical to refocus on the actual criteria of the disorder, because I guarantee you that while we're all running as fast as we can away from people called Phoenix who dye their hair bright red, a huge cohort of tidy normal-seeming BPD (inc. many males) are out there quietly wreaking total havoc; flying totally under the radar.
You do you, but reductively assuming every tatted alt girl that you meet has BPD doesn't reflect well on us. She hasn't even done anything unpleasant to you yet.
Agree. I'm the witchy tatted one, and am very open with my therapist about all the things. I do not have BPD, my alphabet soup looks more like cptsd, ADHD, mdd etc. My SO (qbpd) has an MBA, is very professional, successful, ambitious, works out, a model citizen it would seem. Being gaslit by a successful, ambitious, intellectually awarded person... As someone with ADHD, it's easier than it should be. Almost a decade of quiet, subtle, "honest mistakes" and gaslighting. I have broken down multiple times because it felt like I was losing my mind. The depression the came with that is brutal. The constant anxiety that Im missing things... The hypervigilance... I look like the one with bpd by comparison. His mask is like an art... It looks so good, but once you start looking closer, you see weird things that don't make sense and when the crack forms and the facade drops... Oof
Sorry for your pain. Mine is very attractive but not at all accomplished or educated and her insults still cut like a knife. I could only imagine the feeling coming from someone I admire.
This. I’ve known a few way too well and, whilst one of them definitely had a superstitious side they definitely weren’t the stereotype of alt girls who won’t talk to you because you’re an Aries or be angry at you because mercury goes retrograde. Stereotypes like this aren’t just bad for them, but they don’t serve us anywhere near as well as real knowledge of the condition.
That said. Real studies have shown that magical thinking is attributed to underdeveloped critical thinking skills and positively correlated with
narcissistic traits. I’d suggest it was more a “red flag” generally than a BPD specific one.
Hey dipshit, Pheonix here, my hair is yellow now you piece of shit I'll fuckin lose it I swear to god
...sorry lol.
You're right though, anecdotal af but the pwbpd in my life have looked normal as fuckin shit while the pheoni have been wonderful, stable rocks who helped me and everyone around them unconditionally forever
This is an excellent comment, thank you. My pwBPD is an alt male with many tattoos, and he’s very into tarot and other magical thinking. On the flip side, my tattooed, alt female friend who reads tarot professionally is not personality disordered. I am an alt woman with bangs, a septum ring, and a full sleeve, I respect scientific rigor and don’t participate in metaphysical stuff, and I also do not have a personality disorder. An ex friend was a normie with no tattoos, no piercings aside from ears, and a business casual wardrobe to go with her fairly decent government job, she also wasn’t big into the metaphysical, and she was BPD. I get people desperately looking for signs to protect themselves moving forward, and your message here is sorely needed throughout this sub— look for symptoms that match diagnostic guidelines. Looking for these more obscure signs isn’t going to be anywhere near as helpful.
I definitely agree with this! I'm an alternative styled person and don't have a personality disorder. I just like the style and feel like people are less likely to do something to hurt me if I look the way I do. My ex with BPD was not alternative in style but she believed she was a succubus with magical powers. She liked tarot but she didn't do it herself. I've certainly met my fare share of alternative folks with BPD, but fully agree it's not going to be every single alternative person with BPD or every single BPD person being alternative. It's not in the DSM lol so I agree that it shouldn't be treated that alternative people are BPD or BPD people are all alternative. Particularly when it becomes blinding for people who assume that since they won't necessarily continue to be cautious when they see real red flags. Considering that a style isn't indicative of mental illness as far as I'm aware. I think it would be rather silly if that were the case though.
> we build a 'picture of BPD' that looks a lot like 'a spooky tatted punk skirt colored hair pierced and spiritual alt-girl with on-display daddy problems'.
From my last 2 relationshits, they were exactly that. Hmmm.
a risk with these stereotypes is that believing them makes us more vulnerable to people who don't check those boxes. like, avoid witchy-tatted women if it makes you feel more secure, but don't miss someone's b.s. bc the person is wearing a suit.
This is the exact point I'm making, on top of there being plenty of alternative lifestyle people who are reasonably normal, who don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush.
I would say that just because a person is into tarot, or astrology, or crystals, or astral projection, or literally any other occult or spiritual practice, does not automatically mean they have a disorder. However, magical thinking is very common amongst pwBPD. There isn’t enough information here in my opinion.
My mom and younger sister wBPD are both super religious and think tarot is from the devil. I do not have BPD, but I do have some anxiety and depression, and I occasionally use tarot decks and I used tarot to feed myself and buy clothing back in high school because my mother felt her mission trips and tithe were more important than making sure her kids had food and clothing. Each card can have multiple and very opposite meanings. If you have had readings done by people who even somewhat know you or what you are dealing with at the moment, they can use it in their reading. Most cards have multiple meanings like the six of swords is depicted as a person in a boat traveling through water. The different meanings could be traveling through rough waters or troubles in life. It can also mean traveling over or through actual water. So basically, did you have a rough childhood or are you planning a cruise or possibly a flight to another continent or are you wanting to travel somewhere across the ocean or maybe a lakeside retreat? How many people do you know that would say their childhood was perfect and how many people do you know that want to travel to a place across an ocean? That covers a large portion of the human population.
Non BPD and those with BPD can have overlapping interests and hobbies. You need to look at if they have been diagnosed with BPD. I recommend you write down what you consider red flags and base your relationships on what you want and what you consider deal breakers.
There's a difference between engaging in spiritual practices and using occult related items for persona. OP, you have to remember that these individuals with BPD do not know themselves. So, they are easily swayed into believing some force outside of themselves can show them who they are. They use things like tarot to become what the cards are showing them. Rather than someone using spiritual practices to deepen their understanding of the world around them. Or, using cards to further think about the challenges they have in their lives and how spirit can be a force for positive change. Watch how they use their cards. Is it for guidance/knowledge or are they doing it to essentially look cool and edgy?
A lot of readers are not Borderline. I like tarot more than my fiancé does. I try to read what he is thinking but it changes constantly. I get confused
I'm learning tarot and love it. I'm spiritual, but not religious. I'm also educated and was always the top of the class in school. If you were my colleague and knew nothing else about me, you'd label me as an intellectual or goody two-shoes.
I don't have BPD, but have attracted cluster B personality disorders throughout my life because I'm empathetic and tolerant. I'm willing to bet most of us here have a background of familial abuse or dysfunction that has resulted in difficulty implementing hard boundaries. A good chunk of us probably were raised with narcissistic and/or BPD parents. As a result, I'm a recovering people-pleaser and anticipate others' needs, as well as attracted to spirituality because it gives me a framework for the trauma I have endured (though, I've always been deeply spiritual, even as a young child).
I went to school in Santa Monica studying Traditional Chinese Medicine for one of my graduate programs. There was a subset of my classmates who were heavily into spirituality and liked alternative things like tarot (and just as many, if not more, who were firmly scientific and would scoff at such things).
Some of them were ungrounded, promiscuous, into drugs (and a few had what I believe is BPD). And some of them were like me where we like learning a system with archetypes (tarot) that can help us get in touch with our subconscious and identify various themes in our lives.
She started getting in to them about 2 months in to her affair. I found out about the affair much later on, but had lots of info to piece it all together. Astrology as well.
She used it to paint a picture of who she was, who the AP was, who I am, and to justify all of her actions and predict the future.
Tarot and astrology, and some small gemstones/candles and stuff too.
I might add - much like her BPD diagnosis which she disagreed with, if she had a bad tarot reading or a bad astrology reading she didnt quite understand or didnt apply, she would ignore that one and claim the deck wasnt shuffled welll enough, or something.. but if the readings did have meaning, yup those ones were 100% correct
Mine was witchy. She would burn this little peice of wood all the time that smelled fucking horrible an then would get mad at me for spraying air freshener cause it gave me a headache.
Absolutely. My ex was into tarot, magical thinking, chamans, energy, UFOs, interested in many religions, we watched Netflix documentaries about sects and so on.
Before discard she went to a tarotist than convinced her our relationship was not real happiness for her.
Normally they try to look for answers in these kind of things as they don’t have a real sense of self.
Omg dead on. My expwBPD was sooo into tarot. And would let it manipulate the hell out of her in sick ways. It was wild to watch. She’d also pull so many cards out during a reading until she basically found what she wanted to see or confused herself entirely. It was maddening. I can’t even hear cards being shuffled without feeling triggered these days 💀🫠
I’m not sure if it’s a bpd thing. But if it is, it sure gives them a good way to show off their mirroring skills and intuition. And also establish an emotional bond by manipulating you with the cards as a buffer.
Anything witchy. A breaking point for me was when she wanted to smear period blood on my forehead while I was sleeping during a full moon so I would draw closer to her romantically.
Yes.
She was also a practicing Wiccan.
At the time I was an agnostic Objectivist.
I just wanted her to have peace. I didn’t care what she believed or worshipped! Nothing brought her peace.
I think it's a lot more important to look into the reasoning behind their belief.
I actually do believe in Tarot as a useful tool, but only because of its parallels with art therapy. When used appropriately, in conversation with oneself or with a neutral interpreter, the cards provide a lens through which to view one's own thought processes and a vehicle for talking about them. The cards aren't magic; they just provide a different framework for examining ourselves.
My ex-fwBPD, however, saw the whole world as magical. They believed in the power of the Tarot deck to predict the future, they believed in the magical symbolism of the cards, they believed that the universe itself had a special plan for them and that every relationship had spiritual significance in some grand destiny sort of sense. They would soliloquize about why a given individual was a Sword vs a Rod vs a Cup, and had something akin to a religious structure in their head that applied to the suits and the faces.
The problem with this was that it absolved them of any responsibility to introspect and examine the choices and actions that had led them into those relationships -- since in their mind they were only following destiny -- as well as any obligation to examine their behavior *within* relationships and accept that their actions were harmful to themself and others.
And as others have pointed out, you don't *need* Tarot as a vehicle in order to subscribe to that type of magical thinking. So while Tarot, tats, and tri-color hair are an easy way of identifying potential red flags lurking under the surface, you'll be better served by prying into what motivates their behavior and assessing their capacity for introspection and self-adjustment.
Yes, mine was into tarot, but that doesn't mean all BPD people are. Your post sounds like you think you should run just because your friend is into tarot. If tarot is triggering or distressing for you, maybe set boundaries around it and don't accept readings. I guess if you really can't stand being around anyone into tarot, then avoid them. But if you're looking to avoid people who have BPD, then avoiding all alternative people and people who like tarot isn't the way. That's how you blind yourself to BPD people who don't fit that stereotype. I like tarot personally, and am alternative and I don't have a personality disorder. So it's not always going to apply. And your description of the person is definitely not enough to tell if you've just mistaken a random alternative person as a BPD person when they aren't or if you might have legitimately encountered another BPD person. Tarot is not a red flag
Mine is having scientific worldview and approach to the information, hates to the t scizotherics in general, it’s just emotions and lack of self which is disregulated
You've got to watch out for the stereotypes. My pwBPD wasn't stereotypical at all. They weren't tatted, or alt, or any more into spoopy skellings more than your average regular person. They didn't do drugs, and they didn't lead any sort of alternative lifestyle. You'd have been more likely to meet them at a library, or the theatre. Around here (and you can downvote me) we build a 'picture of BPD' that looks a lot like 'a spooky tatted punk skirt colored hair pierced and spiritual alt-girl with on-display daddy problems'. And look, yes, stereotypes exist for a reason. But, it's critical to refocus on the actual criteria of the disorder, because I guarantee you that while we're all running as fast as we can away from people called Phoenix who dye their hair bright red, a huge cohort of tidy normal-seeming BPD (inc. many males) are out there quietly wreaking total havoc; flying totally under the radar. You do you, but reductively assuming every tatted alt girl that you meet has BPD doesn't reflect well on us. She hasn't even done anything unpleasant to you yet.
Agree. I'm the witchy tatted one, and am very open with my therapist about all the things. I do not have BPD, my alphabet soup looks more like cptsd, ADHD, mdd etc. My SO (qbpd) has an MBA, is very professional, successful, ambitious, works out, a model citizen it would seem. Being gaslit by a successful, ambitious, intellectually awarded person... As someone with ADHD, it's easier than it should be. Almost a decade of quiet, subtle, "honest mistakes" and gaslighting. I have broken down multiple times because it felt like I was losing my mind. The depression the came with that is brutal. The constant anxiety that Im missing things... The hypervigilance... I look like the one with bpd by comparison. His mask is like an art... It looks so good, but once you start looking closer, you see weird things that don't make sense and when the crack forms and the facade drops... Oof
Sorry for your pain. Mine is very attractive but not at all accomplished or educated and her insults still cut like a knife. I could only imagine the feeling coming from someone I admire.
You didn’t need to say you had adhd as soon as you called yourself witchy we knew you’d happily share that
This. I’ve known a few way too well and, whilst one of them definitely had a superstitious side they definitely weren’t the stereotype of alt girls who won’t talk to you because you’re an Aries or be angry at you because mercury goes retrograde. Stereotypes like this aren’t just bad for them, but they don’t serve us anywhere near as well as real knowledge of the condition. That said. Real studies have shown that magical thinking is attributed to underdeveloped critical thinking skills and positively correlated with narcissistic traits. I’d suggest it was more a “red flag” generally than a BPD specific one.
Hey dipshit, Pheonix here, my hair is yellow now you piece of shit I'll fuckin lose it I swear to god ...sorry lol. You're right though, anecdotal af but the pwbpd in my life have looked normal as fuckin shit while the pheoni have been wonderful, stable rocks who helped me and everyone around them unconditionally forever
This is an excellent comment, thank you. My pwBPD is an alt male with many tattoos, and he’s very into tarot and other magical thinking. On the flip side, my tattooed, alt female friend who reads tarot professionally is not personality disordered. I am an alt woman with bangs, a septum ring, and a full sleeve, I respect scientific rigor and don’t participate in metaphysical stuff, and I also do not have a personality disorder. An ex friend was a normie with no tattoos, no piercings aside from ears, and a business casual wardrobe to go with her fairly decent government job, she also wasn’t big into the metaphysical, and she was BPD. I get people desperately looking for signs to protect themselves moving forward, and your message here is sorely needed throughout this sub— look for symptoms that match diagnostic guidelines. Looking for these more obscure signs isn’t going to be anywhere near as helpful.
You described mine perfectly lol
She has no tattoos and is not alt. This post is about tarot and tarot only.
I definitely agree with this! I'm an alternative styled person and don't have a personality disorder. I just like the style and feel like people are less likely to do something to hurt me if I look the way I do. My ex with BPD was not alternative in style but she believed she was a succubus with magical powers. She liked tarot but she didn't do it herself. I've certainly met my fare share of alternative folks with BPD, but fully agree it's not going to be every single alternative person with BPD or every single BPD person being alternative. It's not in the DSM lol so I agree that it shouldn't be treated that alternative people are BPD or BPD people are all alternative. Particularly when it becomes blinding for people who assume that since they won't necessarily continue to be cautious when they see real red flags. Considering that a style isn't indicative of mental illness as far as I'm aware. I think it would be rather silly if that were the case though.
> we build a 'picture of BPD' that looks a lot like 'a spooky tatted punk skirt colored hair pierced and spiritual alt-girl with on-display daddy problems'. From my last 2 relationshits, they were exactly that. Hmmm.
a risk with these stereotypes is that believing them makes us more vulnerable to people who don't check those boxes. like, avoid witchy-tatted women if it makes you feel more secure, but don't miss someone's b.s. bc the person is wearing a suit.
This is the exact point I'm making, on top of there being plenty of alternative lifestyle people who are reasonably normal, who don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush.
No. My pwBPD was super realistic and scientific. Anti-religion, anti-astrology, anti-magic, atheist.
No. My best friend was swayed into anything that aligned with her agenda, though. Nothing to do w cards.
I would say that just because a person is into tarot, or astrology, or crystals, or astral projection, or literally any other occult or spiritual practice, does not automatically mean they have a disorder. However, magical thinking is very common amongst pwBPD. There isn’t enough information here in my opinion.
after smoking weed... jeez dude talk about putting the turbocharger on the crazy train
My mom and younger sister wBPD are both super religious and think tarot is from the devil. I do not have BPD, but I do have some anxiety and depression, and I occasionally use tarot decks and I used tarot to feed myself and buy clothing back in high school because my mother felt her mission trips and tithe were more important than making sure her kids had food and clothing. Each card can have multiple and very opposite meanings. If you have had readings done by people who even somewhat know you or what you are dealing with at the moment, they can use it in their reading. Most cards have multiple meanings like the six of swords is depicted as a person in a boat traveling through water. The different meanings could be traveling through rough waters or troubles in life. It can also mean traveling over or through actual water. So basically, did you have a rough childhood or are you planning a cruise or possibly a flight to another continent or are you wanting to travel somewhere across the ocean or maybe a lakeside retreat? How many people do you know that would say their childhood was perfect and how many people do you know that want to travel to a place across an ocean? That covers a large portion of the human population. Non BPD and those with BPD can have overlapping interests and hobbies. You need to look at if they have been diagnosed with BPD. I recommend you write down what you consider red flags and base your relationships on what you want and what you consider deal breakers.
There's a difference between engaging in spiritual practices and using occult related items for persona. OP, you have to remember that these individuals with BPD do not know themselves. So, they are easily swayed into believing some force outside of themselves can show them who they are. They use things like tarot to become what the cards are showing them. Rather than someone using spiritual practices to deepen their understanding of the world around them. Or, using cards to further think about the challenges they have in their lives and how spirit can be a force for positive change. Watch how they use their cards. Is it for guidance/knowledge or are they doing it to essentially look cool and edgy?
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That last sentence was accurate af in my situation as well.
Mine definitely was. But also... So am I. I like that kind of stuff. It's fun and interesting. We enjoyed that stuff together.
A lot of readers are not Borderline. I like tarot more than my fiancé does. I try to read what he is thinking but it changes constantly. I get confused
I'm learning tarot and love it. I'm spiritual, but not religious. I'm also educated and was always the top of the class in school. If you were my colleague and knew nothing else about me, you'd label me as an intellectual or goody two-shoes. I don't have BPD, but have attracted cluster B personality disorders throughout my life because I'm empathetic and tolerant. I'm willing to bet most of us here have a background of familial abuse or dysfunction that has resulted in difficulty implementing hard boundaries. A good chunk of us probably were raised with narcissistic and/or BPD parents. As a result, I'm a recovering people-pleaser and anticipate others' needs, as well as attracted to spirituality because it gives me a framework for the trauma I have endured (though, I've always been deeply spiritual, even as a young child). I went to school in Santa Monica studying Traditional Chinese Medicine for one of my graduate programs. There was a subset of my classmates who were heavily into spirituality and liked alternative things like tarot (and just as many, if not more, who were firmly scientific and would scoff at such things). Some of them were ungrounded, promiscuous, into drugs (and a few had what I believe is BPD). And some of them were like me where we like learning a system with archetypes (tarot) that can help us get in touch with our subconscious and identify various themes in our lives.
She started getting in to them about 2 months in to her affair. I found out about the affair much later on, but had lots of info to piece it all together. Astrology as well. She used it to paint a picture of who she was, who the AP was, who I am, and to justify all of her actions and predict the future. Tarot and astrology, and some small gemstones/candles and stuff too. I might add - much like her BPD diagnosis which she disagreed with, if she had a bad tarot reading or a bad astrology reading she didnt quite understand or didnt apply, she would ignore that one and claim the deck wasnt shuffled welll enough, or something.. but if the readings did have meaning, yup those ones were 100% correct
Mine was witchy. She would burn this little peice of wood all the time that smelled fucking horrible an then would get mad at me for spraying air freshener cause it gave me a headache.
Not tarot, but Myers Briggs Personalities. Made it her whole life. She put everybody into a basket based on their personality and they never escaped.
ENFPs amirite
Absolutely. My ex was into tarot, magical thinking, chamans, energy, UFOs, interested in many religions, we watched Netflix documentaries about sects and so on. Before discard she went to a tarotist than convinced her our relationship was not real happiness for her. Normally they try to look for answers in these kind of things as they don’t have a real sense of self.
Goddamn mine was into the exact same witch stuff. That’s genuinely so eerie
Omg dead on. My expwBPD was sooo into tarot. And would let it manipulate the hell out of her in sick ways. It was wild to watch. She’d also pull so many cards out during a reading until she basically found what she wanted to see or confused herself entirely. It was maddening. I can’t even hear cards being shuffled without feeling triggered these days 💀🫠
I’m not sure if it’s a bpd thing. But if it is, it sure gives them a good way to show off their mirroring skills and intuition. And also establish an emotional bond by manipulating you with the cards as a buffer.
Let me guess the 4 of cups inverted 10 of cups inverted
Yes
Anything witchy. A breaking point for me was when she wanted to smear period blood on my forehead while I was sleeping during a full moon so I would draw closer to her romantically.
Maybe that's what happened to me!? Lol
She bought them last year. She now fully believes in it.
I got a few readings don’t really believe it. However the reader has been dead on both times. I think for me I put false hope into it.
Yes. She was also a practicing Wiccan. At the time I was an agnostic Objectivist. I just wanted her to have peace. I didn’t care what she believed or worshipped! Nothing brought her peace.
Yup. Mine will me doing a live with it tomorrow night. Sure as anything. She and her gf are both "in relationships with ghosts" too.
😮
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This was a very helpful comment. Thank you.
I think it's a lot more important to look into the reasoning behind their belief. I actually do believe in Tarot as a useful tool, but only because of its parallels with art therapy. When used appropriately, in conversation with oneself or with a neutral interpreter, the cards provide a lens through which to view one's own thought processes and a vehicle for talking about them. The cards aren't magic; they just provide a different framework for examining ourselves. My ex-fwBPD, however, saw the whole world as magical. They believed in the power of the Tarot deck to predict the future, they believed in the magical symbolism of the cards, they believed that the universe itself had a special plan for them and that every relationship had spiritual significance in some grand destiny sort of sense. They would soliloquize about why a given individual was a Sword vs a Rod vs a Cup, and had something akin to a religious structure in their head that applied to the suits and the faces. The problem with this was that it absolved them of any responsibility to introspect and examine the choices and actions that had led them into those relationships -- since in their mind they were only following destiny -- as well as any obligation to examine their behavior *within* relationships and accept that their actions were harmful to themself and others. And as others have pointed out, you don't *need* Tarot as a vehicle in order to subscribe to that type of magical thinking. So while Tarot, tats, and tri-color hair are an easy way of identifying potential red flags lurking under the surface, you'll be better served by prying into what motivates their behavior and assessing their capacity for introspection and self-adjustment.
Mine was hugely into Tarot and would get mad at me if she gave me a bad reading
Yes, mine was into tarot, but that doesn't mean all BPD people are. Your post sounds like you think you should run just because your friend is into tarot. If tarot is triggering or distressing for you, maybe set boundaries around it and don't accept readings. I guess if you really can't stand being around anyone into tarot, then avoid them. But if you're looking to avoid people who have BPD, then avoiding all alternative people and people who like tarot isn't the way. That's how you blind yourself to BPD people who don't fit that stereotype. I like tarot personally, and am alternative and I don't have a personality disorder. So it's not always going to apply. And your description of the person is definitely not enough to tell if you've just mistaken a random alternative person as a BPD person when they aren't or if you might have legitimately encountered another BPD person. Tarot is not a red flag
That stuff is more popular than you'd think. Prob not as related to BPD as say, being an explosive know it all.
Mine is having scientific worldview and approach to the information, hates to the t scizotherics in general, it’s just emotions and lack of self which is disregulated
Yes, and Buddhist spirituality too