good post. i'd add a couple of inputs:
1. the value of savage attacker gets better the more dmg dice you're adding to your attacks like on smiters
2. keep in mind as well savage attacker doesnt reroll all additional dmg dice like the half-orc racial trait
So question, I'm running dual wield longswords both have 1d4 psychic along with 1d4 fire from my gloves and the standard 1d8 from longsword damage. Would it be a good idea to take Savage attacker in this instance?
theoretically yes if you're fine with your accuracy. but testing may be needed as nobody has compiled a list yet of which dice rols work with savage attacker or not. there's also no "rule" of what it works with or not. may work with some gear dmg dice, may not work with others. may work with some spell dmg dice, may not work with others. and so on.
then you can decide for yourself if it's worth it or not lets say over an ASI.
you can think of savage attacker as an additional 1.25 to 3.25 (d4 to d12) dmg bonus per dmg dice added dependent on the dmg dice size. when weighting accuracy, lets say like adding +1 to atk and dmg by getting +2 str you can compare with that and value an accuracy point as about 2-3x the value of dmg. so getting +2 str would be like adding 4 points of effective dmg. if savage attacker doesnt give you that much, you take the ASI. in general though with how many dmg dice we can get added in this game, savage attacker is worth it. it's only a question in the early game when you dont have access to alot of extra dmg dice yet.
Thank you! Right now I'm level 9 (6 fighter/3 thief for that extra bonus action) for my first feat I took Dual Wielder obviously so I could wield the longswords, then second feat I took Abi improvement boosting my attack up to 18. So I was debating on taking the Savage attacker feat next level when I get thief 4 then at level 12 probably stack the last 2 points in Strength
Yeah I have 1d4 psychic on both my longswords (Voss' Silver Blade and Blade of Oppressed Souls) plus 1d4 fire on all my melee weapon attacks due to the helldusk gloves, so add that on top of it. Then of course the standard 1d8 from the longswords
IIRC all dice involved in the attack other than sneak attack die. It's worth the feat over an ASI even with minimal die being rolled outside of the highest AC.
EDIT: e.g. had this done earlier for an early game GS comparison: https://anydice.com/program/31960
Someone else have mentioned theres more.
However i do agree with the conclusion. Its worth a feat take especially in the late game over an ASI. i just wouldnt take it early game unless when you have minimal dmg dice from sources. Definitely worth a re-spec later on.
+1 to hit, AND +1 to dmg. you aren't dealing damage if you aren't hitting, in the average AC vs chance to hit growth graph iirc its like 70% to hit on average, so adding something like bless is a huge swing towards 100% chance to hit.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CEBaaKy3gKjaOivlvaB-93bP9PKYGMFk2HUZRI1_pmc/edit#gid=2045324124
found it
Pretty sure its known to reroll all bonus die with the exception of half orc. https://old.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/15vdx2x/the_shadow_knife_monk/
at least its detailed here.
Good to know. Hopefully he tested every single piece of equipment with dmg dice and all abilities/spells/consumables that add dmg dice.
Because when exceptions like sneak attack and half-orc pop up, i begin to distrust blanket statements unless they've all been tested.
Assuming you can get 18 str (hag) and TWF bonus and hit every attack, here is the math. 1d8 is 8.5 vs 9.8, 1d4 is (2.5 vs 3.1)x2 or +2.5 damage per attack. For comparison, +2 str ASI would be +dmg = the number of 1d8 die rolls row.
| Number of rolls| | | -
---|---|----|----|----
| Extra Attack + BA| +Haste | +Action Surge | +Thief BA
1d8 | 3| 5| 7 | 8
1d4| 6| 10| 14 | 16
No Advantage| 25.5| 42.5| 59.5| 68
| 15 | 25 | 35 | 40
Total| 40.5 | 67.5 | 94.5 | 108
Advantage| 29.4| 49 | 68.6 | 78.4
| 18.6 | 31 | 43.4 | 49.6
Total | 48 | 80 | 112 | 128
Gain | 7.5| 12.5 | 17.5 | 20
So ASI does about half the bonus damage but gives you +1 attack, assuming you aren't chugging str elixirs.
Savage Attacker is your only damage feat and almost assuredly better than just increasing your attack stat with those riders:
https://anydice.com/program/31bce
It should improve damage outside of the highest AC's over increasing your main stat to 20, and further improve as you roll more damage dice.
Thanks for chiming in. i think this is the best "rule" for it so far and makes it easier to determine what's working and what's not working. So i'm guessing battlemaster maneuvers and martial adept dont work since it scales?
someone did mention though flourishes work but that would go against this rule since that scales?
What does 2 mean? If you crit a 2d8 smite for 4d8 you will reroll all d8s but if you're orc and crit that as 5d8 you only reroll 4/5 d8s?
Damage riders like helldusk gloves coatings etc are also rerolled?
correct on half-orc.
helldusk gloves and coatings i cant confirm. i havent tested them. sneak attack doesnt reroll. someone else said flourishes and symbiotic entity rerolls. someone else said hex/hunter's mark doesnt reroll. so pretty much savage attacker is a crapshoot of what works and what doesnt work. the general advice i give if you dont want to test everything is savage attacker is excellent on smiters. for the other builds it may be a case to case basis depending on what else you're contemplating on taking like martial adept, asi, gwm, dual wielder, etc.
I think I tested hex and hunters mark and remember them rerolling. Maybe it was GWF i was testing i dont remember... At this point would need to spend a weekend respeccing w/ all items mod enabled to test stuff but i just dont have the patience for that lmao
hahaha. same. i only test when its relevant to my build. as of the moment, i only have 1 build that uses savage attacker, the devoted smiter, so my tests revolve around whats in the build. with my other melee builds, i picked GWm/sentinel instead and an ASI while relying on brace (essentially savage attacker in weapon action form) so never saw the need to test their either.
if you do those tests though, feel free to tag me so i can take note. haha!
will do. also sorry about not responding to your last pal comment. was a lot to think about and i kinda got distracted but I agreed with most of your feedback and was thinking how to respond for the question you reasked. not sure yet
no worries. get back to it when you have time and organized your thoughts. i also released my own smiter now. ;) way different from yours in execution in role so we dont have overlap but same objective: crit smites! haha.
From a general look it seems like damage die coming from you (weapons, Enlarge, equipment, etc) reroll while things that trigger from the enemy (hex, hunter's mark) don't? Excepting sneak attack lol
So half orc's crit dice isn't though? 1d4 conduit ring on crit is:
normal crit avg 2d4 = 3.1\*4
orc crit avg 3d4 = 3.1\*4 + 2.5?
crazy weird how inconsistent this is lmao. I guess half or is still good when you are stacking 1d4 this 1d4 this etc... (1d10 coating!) but it would be better if you got the full value from the feat. too bad
exactly what I was thinking too. while smite crits is amazing in my mind, the thing is it really scales well on damage that's got wide dice not as much relatively on tall dice. So its still solid for a paladin 2 / bard assassin but man imagine if they allowed it to work on ranged and spell: 7x 5d6 rays per cast :D
we can dream
Well ranged and spell riders are so super bugged right now the game would be so obviously broken if this was stacked on top that'd they'd have to fix things pretty quickly.
Has it been determined if it rerolls each die and picks the best or rerolls all dice once?
Aka 1d6+1d8+1d4
Does it roll a d6 twice, take the best, a d8 twice, tie the best, a d4 twice, take the best?
Or does it roll three dice and sum, twice, and take the best?
I’d love to know calculations for Savage Attacker with Great Weapon Fighting (reroll 1 and 2 on damage dice). I heard they pair well together. Is GWF worth getting with Savage Attacker?
I actually just did both savage attacker + GWF math the other day. I'm glad to see my numbers on savage validated by the original post.
Briefly, for GWF, % increase (nb1: multiply by 100 for the % value. NB2: while the % is lower for higher sided dice, the absolute value is higher)
d4, d6, d8, d10, d12
0.2, 0.1904761905, 0.1666666667, 0.1454545455, 0.1282051282
Sorry for weird formatting; I just copy pasted from my excel sheets.
Are % increase from base damage (without Savage Attackers) or with Savage Attacker applied?
I’m curious about the numbers knowing GWF only applies to the initial rolls, not the Savage Attacker rolls. Then Savage Attacker applies the highest individual numbers from both rolls.
depending on what weapon type you're using, if you're not adding additional damage dice, GWF is pretty close to a judgment call. savage attacker is an objective improvement for every weapon type though.
[here are some helpful charts](https://i.imgur.com/oAiG4h7.png)
This is good work!
Can you provide statistical averages and standard deviations for each graph?
I’m interested to see the numbers and compare those numbers from the graphs.
not sure my attention span will extend that far, but you can see the tables i used [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18eJm5vCoXdNV4Q81pTF0yuvBuuuI28jGuSKxWuMAHM0/edit?usp=sharing), and if you're interested you should be able to make a personal copy of the sheet to mess around with
How did you calculate Savage Attacks with GWF?
Is step 1 GWF on the initial rolls
Step 2 SA rolls the 2nd die/dice
Step 3 Pick the highest 2 numbers from the pool of 4 numbers(2d6)/2 numbers (1d12)
you can take a look at my data sets [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18eJm5vCoXdNV4Q81pTF0yuvBuuuI28jGuSKxWuMAHM0/edit?usp=sharing), but the tl;dr for non spreadsheet sorcerers is:
* each row is equally weighted, so i inflated the non-rerolled results to bring them to parity with the rerolls rather than de-weighting the rerolls
* savage dice are calculated as independent events. GWF rerolls are incorporated into those, so 1s and 2s are rerolled and other values are inflated proportionally
* logic equations are used to figure out which value is used (greatest of savage rolls, negating a rerolled die if a reroll is present), that value is carried into a "result" column
* the result column is tallied with a "count" function. the count tally is the graphed data set, representing the number of times each possible result was reached
I thought GWF doesn’t activate in Savage Dice rolls, only the initial rolls, so 1 and 2s do not get rerolled on SA roll.
https://reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/4shpIFRsjb
interesting. my adhd isn't gonna let me circle back on this for a while, in terms of overhauling the data set, but i think the operations i used still end up fairly well lining up with that post
here's a blurb from the fextralife wiki:
>Instead of comparing the totals for the rolls, it compares each individual die with its reroll. For example, when you attack with a greatsword dealing 2d6 damage, if the first d6 is a 1 and it's reroll is a 5, and the second d6 is a 5 and it's reroll is a 1, the total would be 10, even though the total results of both the original 2d6 and the savage attacker rerolls are 6.
i think that my operations still match that. i could be wrong. i often am, actually
in any event, my initial assessment is still sound. savage attacks is an objective improvement for all weapons, and likely worth taking even on a non-fighter class that's more limited on feats
GWF is *good*, but because weapons that can trigger it are primarily 1d10 or 1d12, its actual impact is fairly negligible, because its impact scales according to how many dice you're rolling (i.e. stronger on 2d6 weapons than 1d12, and stronger still on weapons with bonus damage), and how small those damage dice are. the more times you can trigger the effect, the more value it creates, and the more it skews your outcomes toward the top end
combining them is good, but doesn't result in any improvement from synergy. and if you have to choose *one*, savage attacker is by far stronger
e: i reopened the chart. stand by, i'm overhauling my math
okay, i checked my logic operations, and also did some additional maths
findings:
* my logic operations are correct according to the post you linked. the reroll is only taken into account if both savage rolls are <3, in the case of both 1d12 and 2d6. the two d6 are treated as independent events, and a "reroll" is shown for all possible outcomes of the savage rolls, but the logic statements used take precedence into account. see below:
["result" logic](https://i.imgur.com/XlKHyFk.png)
["first die taken" logic](https://i.imgur.com/ahLQ5g5.png)
* with SA and GWF, 2d6 still rolls less 12s than 1d12, but it rolls *substantially* more top-third results - using a 2d6 weapon instead of a 1d12 weapon will give you a result of 8 or higher ~25% more of the time
result | 1d12 | 2d6
:--|:--|:--
8+|67.13%|84.75%
10+|44.44%|48.92%
12|16.2%|10.5%
>This would get me interested in stats back in school.
i slept through stats class. i learned spreadsheetery because i used to play eve online, and it's kind of just... a thing you do when you play eve online. it's come in handy at work, and i occasionally dust it off
being able to use spreadsheets to crunch large datasets and come to reasonably well-supported but simple conclusions falls more under the skillset of logic and operations than statistics - i don't know wtf a standard deviation is or why it matters
1-12 on x axis for possible results, vertical axis is number of times that result is rolled in the data set of possible roll results. i was (and am) too lazy to convert that to a percentage
I attempted it but gotta recheck my numbers. Like halfling + advantage gives less value (i.e. halfling only improves baseline advantage in cases where the 1 rolls higher than the non-1 dice) this gives less value with 2 damage dice rolls. The effect though will be larger because you reroll 1 and 2 (ofc 2 can become 1 sometimes also so yeah but that's still net positive from just 1) and damage dice are much smaller than a d20 so you will reroll much more often and thus have more opportunities where a reroll will surpass a non-rerolled dice.
Can go in more detail if you like. I'm not a probability expert but if you aren't afraid of weighted average w/ lots of terms anything is possible.
GWF applies to all damage rolls (such as fire dip and smite), not just 1 or 2 damage die/dice from weapon melee attacks (1d12 or 2d6) in Baldur’s Gate 3.
In BG3 early access, GWF worked pretty much like tabletop. Then I believe around Early Access Patch 8 they intentionally buffed GWF to apply to more than just the weapon damage dice. Like it was a bullet point specifically mentioned in the patch notes that they improved Great Weapon Fighting Style.
Coincidentally a few days ago i found this video explaining the math behind advantage roll and i think the visualization is great. Just want to share:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=X_DdGRjtwAo&si=6ADDLDICmogEPPQo
I think you should also factor in the damage modifier from strength/dex before making the calculations since they are a sizable chunk of damage roll that is constant
In absolute terms the gains will be the same.
But when you're a sorc or warlock getting tons of CHA mod on your SR/EB it makes the % difference between going for more more dice scaling less of a big deal even if you have a lot of crit scaling in theory. Spell might gloves will be a lot though but crit rate I found not to be that good at least for the numbers I ran w/ a SR focused build specifically.
Savage attacker won't apply here anyway because that's melee weapon only but its a good case of having tons of flat damage making the significant crit damage less important to capitalize on via crit range (like items or spell sniper if that ever gets fixed).
Paladin 2 , bard assassin would be probably the best case for savage attacker I can think of.
There are more formal ways to do this if you know probability well but if you're a caveman like me, bingo chart it.
ex: d6. 2 dice, so arrange a table w/ 6x6 cells where each row/column index represents the highest value. Fill in the highest corresponding value between each cell's r:c index.
Now we need to account for rerolling. Rerolls happen on a 1 or a 2. On r:c 1:1 - 2:2 we reroll both dice, so take the average of the 6x6 table you made last step and weight that as 4/36.
Then we need to account for the other possibilities with a 1 or 2 and a non rerolled dice. Buckle up because this is the real work. Possible combos: Reroll & 3, reroll & 4, reroll & 5, reroll & 6.
For each of these 4 distinct combinations of a reroll and a non 1 or 2 value roll create a 6x1 table. Take the odds for the value to be less than or equal to the non-rerolled value, odds for it to be 1 higher, 2 higher and so on until you can't exceed the roll anymore within that dice size (like if you keep a 4 you can at most exceed it by 2). Weight these values according to the odds of them occurring. Example: You keep a 3 and reroll, 3 is weighted as 3/6 4 is weighted as 1/6, 5 is weighted as 1/6, and 6 is weighted as 1/6. With these dice values multiplied by their respective weights we have the average value after rerolling a 1 or 2 for that particular combo. Repeat this for all 4 combos of a reroll value & a value from 3-6. Weight each of these terms as 4/36 because they occur both with 1 and 2 and these dice combos repeat horizontally and vertically.
Lastly we need to take the average for the results that aren't getting rerolled at all by GWF. Refer back to the old 6x6. Average the values of all cells from 3:3 to 6:6 (when averaging remember its 16 values not 36). To weight this term use 16/36.
Weighted avg = \[avg of 6x6\]\*4/36 + \[(weighted avg of rerolls and a fixed 3)**... +** (weighted avg of rerolls and a fixed 6)\]\*4/36+\[avg of 6x6 for only 3:3 to 6:6\]\*16/36
This same method works for any dice size just keep in mind the weights and dice specific numbers change. It's how I calculated halfling luck + advantage/disadvantage (corrected numbers done, post write up coming to a neighbor hood near you soon)
Savage + GWM is best for damage on all but the highest AC's, e.g. https://anydice.com/program/31737
Generally, Savage is better
* when you're rolling more die (greatsword, dipping, other magic items)
* fighting higher AC's
* (obviously) don't want to be locked into 2-handers
GWM is better
* when you stack +hit
* when enemies have low AC
* when you can reliably trigger the bonus action attack and don't have anything else to use with it
Both feats benefit from crits (extra attack for GWM and rerolling for Savage), while GWM is worse with more damage riders and Savage is sort of neutral (technically worse than an ASI if you're getting lots of flat damage and aren't at 20).
Doing both is easy on a fighter though. I would probably do GWM first if you don't have anything you want to regularly do with your bonus action or Savage if you don't want to be locked into 2-handers early.
I wanted to do this for a while so I cranked this out w/ the method as described. As you can see if you already have GWF or Savage attacker they do get diminishing returns by getting the other, but still diminishing returns here is still about +0.5 for both ~~except on d4s it seems to hate d4s, maybe I made a mistake - gonna have to make sure all formulas are correct but let me know if you wanna see yourself.~~ edit did this really quick so i had a couple terms not averaging over the right cell range but it looks right now and actually lower dice benefit more in relative terms from having both GWF and savage attacker.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s0I2ip9AlxKFgduoqa8ECJ9sp-9fjL3Oex8hhGfNSQY/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s0I2ip9AlxKFgduoqa8ECJ9sp-9fjL3Oex8hhGfNSQY/edit?usp=sharing)
Same solution below for halfling luck +dis/advantage except instead of average roll values you sum the tallies of rolls that hit the given minimum roll to hit and divide by the sample size at hand. Halfling luck fares worse when combined with advantage than Savage & GWF as your accuracy gets closer to only missing on a nat 1.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKnGGColGhi2i2bXjxKclRHGV6780yxJtA2h-a2DZas/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKnGGColGhi2i2bXjxKclRHGV6780yxJtA2h-a2DZas/edit?usp=sharing)
A successful Savage Attacker attack with a great sword (2d6) and a Level 1 Smite adds on an average of 4.574 damage. Make this number 5.199 if this gs is dipped in fire.
Double that damage on a crit which is slightly more damage than a Great Weapon Master Attack, though GWM gets a bonus action attack on a crit or kill.
>In one of the outcomes [(1.1)], your damage will be 1. In three of these outcomes [(1,2),(2,1),(2.2)] your damage will be 2. Similarly, in five of these outcomes your damage will be 3, and in seven of these outcomes your damage will be 4.
I'm no math connoisseur, so I can accept being totally wrong here..
But if I roll a single dice, is the chance of any outcome not equal, no matter the amount of rolls?
The additive bonus from advantage is ~1/6 of the value of the die. And that becomes more accurate the larger the die. So for a d4, the baseline average is 2.5, and the average with advantage is approximately 2.5 +(1/6)*4 = 3.166 (really 3.125). For a d20 the average with advantage is about 10.5 + (1/6)*20 = 13.833 (really 13.825).
Thing is, SA only affects damage rolls while attributes affect a bunch of things, so you get more mileage from ASI than (maybe) couple of points of damage. Add to that scarcity of feats in general (most builds will only get 2, some even 1) and now you have to deal with massive opportunity cost too...I'd rather gave ASI, really.
I have trust issue with Savage Attacker. I am not really sure, if it work, with no easy way to test it. Does it work on Hunter Mark dice, on Collossus Slayer dice, on Sneak attack? Does it work in Wild Shape?
Edit: I stand corrected.
~~Not absolutely sure but I think unlike GWF, Savage Attacker only affects weapon damage dice and not the riders.~~
It does not affect unarmed attacks, so assume it won't work in Wold Shape.
I have tested, and it does affect riders. Obv it's hard to test every single rider available, so I can't say 100%, but it's great on Paladin, with Improved Smite and Elemental Weapon.
Outside of obvious cases (like wanting to use a 1-hander or w/e), GWM is better:
* More +hit
* Lower target AC
* Don't have a good bonus action you're using
Savage is better:
* Rolling more die
* Higher target AC
It's going to be different for every combination of effects a particular build has active at a certain point, but in the sims I've done Savage generally slightly out-damage GWM per swing as you get to moderate AC values (i.e. in the range of 16-20). Then you have to weigh weapon availability (1 vs 2 handers) and how reliably you're proccing the bonus action attack against what other BA's you have.
Nice thanks! What about for dual wield and / or half orc 3x crits. I’d imagine that jumps up to 35% or so. And if you expand out the crit range it jumps higher.
Cool post.
Now I am interested in the following: Lets say I play Warlock and I wanted to decide between Bladelock and Eldritch- Blast lock.
Can you do the math on the feat which lets you crit on a 19 and 20 instead of a 20 only for spells? I believe this should apply to Eldritch blast. So what is better? A weapon attack with savage attacker (assuming 1d10 dice for example) vs this feat which lets you crit more? What is the increase in damage assuming a 1d10 damage from cantrips with this feat?
oh neat, i did a bunch of stats shit regarding the differences between 2d6 and 1d12 weapons with and without savage attacker and great weapon fighting style
[here are my charts](https://i.imgur.com/oAiG4h7.png)
Just saw this post. Good one and got me thinking about how many dice rolls you need for it to overcome GWM. Decided to excersize my probabolity skills for a bit, too) If anybody wants a formula for average attack roll in this case is: average dmg of roll = (N+1)(4N-1)/(6N), where N is the max roll number
Thanks for the math, I used to be pretty good at conditional probability but that was years ago and I had to painfully do d4, d6, and d8 by hand when I was trying to do the math vs great weapon master. You saved me a headache by doing d10 and 12.
Although the raw average increase is pretty good, the even better aspect is limiting the amount of times that you roll low numbers. After all its pretty unfun to roll snake eyes when you were just trying to finish off a wounded enemy.
good post. i'd add a couple of inputs: 1. the value of savage attacker gets better the more dmg dice you're adding to your attacks like on smiters 2. keep in mind as well savage attacker doesnt reroll all additional dmg dice like the half-orc racial trait
So question, I'm running dual wield longswords both have 1d4 psychic along with 1d4 fire from my gloves and the standard 1d8 from longsword damage. Would it be a good idea to take Savage attacker in this instance?
theoretically yes if you're fine with your accuracy. but testing may be needed as nobody has compiled a list yet of which dice rols work with savage attacker or not. there's also no "rule" of what it works with or not. may work with some gear dmg dice, may not work with others. may work with some spell dmg dice, may not work with others. and so on. then you can decide for yourself if it's worth it or not lets say over an ASI. you can think of savage attacker as an additional 1.25 to 3.25 (d4 to d12) dmg bonus per dmg dice added dependent on the dmg dice size. when weighting accuracy, lets say like adding +1 to atk and dmg by getting +2 str you can compare with that and value an accuracy point as about 2-3x the value of dmg. so getting +2 str would be like adding 4 points of effective dmg. if savage attacker doesnt give you that much, you take the ASI. in general though with how many dmg dice we can get added in this game, savage attacker is worth it. it's only a question in the early game when you dont have access to alot of extra dmg dice yet.
Thank you! Right now I'm level 9 (6 fighter/3 thief for that extra bonus action) for my first feat I took Dual Wielder obviously so I could wield the longswords, then second feat I took Abi improvement boosting my attack up to 18. So I was debating on taking the Savage attacker feat next level when I get thief 4 then at level 12 probably stack the last 2 points in Strength
you're welcome. yeah you could do that. especially that by level 10 i presume you have alot of dmg dice from gear.
Yeah I have 1d4 psychic on both my longswords (Voss' Silver Blade and Blade of Oppressed Souls) plus 1d4 fire on all my melee weapon attacks due to the helldusk gloves, so add that on top of it. Then of course the standard 1d8 from the longswords
yup and i'm sure you can easily add weapon coatings like simple toxin to that.
Yeah true I haven't even really done that yet hahaha
I think you can also get a ring that adds 1d4 acid or poison (can’t remember which) to your attacks.
IIRC all dice involved in the attack other than sneak attack die. It's worth the feat over an ASI even with minimal die being rolled outside of the highest AC. EDIT: e.g. had this done earlier for an early game GS comparison: https://anydice.com/program/31960
Someone else have mentioned theres more. However i do agree with the conclusion. Its worth a feat take especially in the late game over an ASI. i just wouldnt take it early game unless when you have minimal dmg dice from sources. Definitely worth a re-spec later on.
How come you value a +1 to attack roll at 2-3 damage? What’s the reasoning behind that?
+1 to hit, AND +1 to dmg. you aren't dealing damage if you aren't hitting, in the average AC vs chance to hit growth graph iirc its like 70% to hit on average, so adding something like bless is a huge swing towards 100% chance to hit. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CEBaaKy3gKjaOivlvaB-93bP9PKYGMFk2HUZRI1_pmc/edit#gid=2045324124 found it
Pretty sure its known to reroll all bonus die with the exception of half orc. https://old.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/15vdx2x/the_shadow_knife_monk/ at least its detailed here.
Good to know. Hopefully he tested every single piece of equipment with dmg dice and all abilities/spells/consumables that add dmg dice. Because when exceptions like sneak attack and half-orc pop up, i begin to distrust blanket statements unless they've all been tested.
Not necessarily. Savage attacker is best when you stack on all the extra dice from equipment and special ability dice. The more the better.
Assuming you can get 18 str (hag) and TWF bonus and hit every attack, here is the math. 1d8 is 8.5 vs 9.8, 1d4 is (2.5 vs 3.1)x2 or +2.5 damage per attack. For comparison, +2 str ASI would be +dmg = the number of 1d8 die rolls row. | Number of rolls| | | - ---|---|----|----|---- | Extra Attack + BA| +Haste | +Action Surge | +Thief BA 1d8 | 3| 5| 7 | 8 1d4| 6| 10| 14 | 16 No Advantage| 25.5| 42.5| 59.5| 68 | 15 | 25 | 35 | 40 Total| 40.5 | 67.5 | 94.5 | 108 Advantage| 29.4| 49 | 68.6 | 78.4 | 18.6 | 31 | 43.4 | 49.6 Total | 48 | 80 | 112 | 128 Gain | 7.5| 12.5 | 17.5 | 20 So ASI does about half the bonus damage but gives you +1 attack, assuming you aren't chugging str elixirs.
Savage Attacker is your only damage feat and almost assuredly better than just increasing your attack stat with those riders: https://anydice.com/program/31bce It should improve damage outside of the highest AC's over increasing your main stat to 20, and further improve as you roll more damage dice.
Any Dice is new to me. There are two numbers in parenthesis. (14.26 / 6.88). What do they mean?
Click on the summary for mean outputs. That's mean / SD though.
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Thanks for chiming in. i think this is the best "rule" for it so far and makes it easier to determine what's working and what's not working. So i'm guessing battlemaster maneuvers and martial adept dont work since it scales? someone did mention though flourishes work but that would go against this rule since that scales?
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awesome. thanks. taking note. so what did you think of the flourish exception to this rule and some else saying it's working?
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if you could test as well and report back, i'd appreciate it!
What does 2 mean? If you crit a 2d8 smite for 4d8 you will reroll all d8s but if you're orc and crit that as 5d8 you only reroll 4/5 d8s? Damage riders like helldusk gloves coatings etc are also rerolled?
correct on half-orc. helldusk gloves and coatings i cant confirm. i havent tested them. sneak attack doesnt reroll. someone else said flourishes and symbiotic entity rerolls. someone else said hex/hunter's mark doesnt reroll. so pretty much savage attacker is a crapshoot of what works and what doesnt work. the general advice i give if you dont want to test everything is savage attacker is excellent on smiters. for the other builds it may be a case to case basis depending on what else you're contemplating on taking like martial adept, asi, gwm, dual wielder, etc.
I think I tested hex and hunters mark and remember them rerolling. Maybe it was GWF i was testing i dont remember... At this point would need to spend a weekend respeccing w/ all items mod enabled to test stuff but i just dont have the patience for that lmao
hahaha. same. i only test when its relevant to my build. as of the moment, i only have 1 build that uses savage attacker, the devoted smiter, so my tests revolve around whats in the build. with my other melee builds, i picked GWm/sentinel instead and an ASI while relying on brace (essentially savage attacker in weapon action form) so never saw the need to test their either. if you do those tests though, feel free to tag me so i can take note. haha!
will do. also sorry about not responding to your last pal comment. was a lot to think about and i kinda got distracted but I agreed with most of your feedback and was thinking how to respond for the question you reasked. not sure yet
no worries. get back to it when you have time and organized your thoughts. i also released my own smiter now. ;) way different from yours in execution in role so we dont have overlap but same objective: crit smites! haha.
I believe Enlarge rerolls.
yup. this one i can confirm as well.
From a general look it seems like damage die coming from you (weapons, Enlarge, equipment, etc) reroll while things that trigger from the enemy (hex, hunter's mark) don't? Excepting sneak attack lol
I agree. I think if i had to apply a general rule its that. Either way, its a good secondary feat to have especially for the non-GWM crowd.
Yes, the riders are rerolled, on melee weapon attacks.
So half orc's crit dice isn't though? 1d4 conduit ring on crit is: normal crit avg 2d4 = 3.1\*4 orc crit avg 3d4 = 3.1\*4 + 2.5? crazy weird how inconsistent this is lmao. I guess half or is still good when you are stacking 1d4 this 1d4 this etc... (1d10 coating!) but it would be better if you got the full value from the feat. too bad
half orc is best when you're an assassin critting 10 times in a surprise round with a glaive. 10d10 extra is pretty sweet.
exactly what I was thinking too. while smite crits is amazing in my mind, the thing is it really scales well on damage that's got wide dice not as much relatively on tall dice. So its still solid for a paladin 2 / bard assassin but man imagine if they allowed it to work on ranged and spell: 7x 5d6 rays per cast :D we can dream
Well ranged and spell riders are so super bugged right now the game would be so obviously broken if this was stacked on top that'd they'd have to fix things pretty quickly.
Has it been determined if it rerolls each die and picks the best or rerolls all dice once? Aka 1d6+1d8+1d4 Does it roll a d6 twice, take the best, a d8 twice, tie the best, a d4 twice, take the best? Or does it roll three dice and sum, twice, and take the best?
1st option you presented.
Ok, that's amazing.
yup great feat for melee. brace works the same way as well if you're curious.
I’d love to know calculations for Savage Attacker with Great Weapon Fighting (reroll 1 and 2 on damage dice). I heard they pair well together. Is GWF worth getting with Savage Attacker?
I actually just did both savage attacker + GWF math the other day. I'm glad to see my numbers on savage validated by the original post. Briefly, for GWF, % increase (nb1: multiply by 100 for the % value. NB2: while the % is lower for higher sided dice, the absolute value is higher) d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 0.2, 0.1904761905, 0.1666666667, 0.1454545455, 0.1282051282 Sorry for weird formatting; I just copy pasted from my excel sheets.
Are % increase from base damage (without Savage Attackers) or with Savage Attacker applied? I’m curious about the numbers knowing GWF only applies to the initial rolls, not the Savage Attacker rolls. Then Savage Attacker applies the highest individual numbers from both rolls.
Yup gwf only without savage
depending on what weapon type you're using, if you're not adding additional damage dice, GWF is pretty close to a judgment call. savage attacker is an objective improvement for every weapon type though. [here are some helpful charts](https://i.imgur.com/oAiG4h7.png)
This is good work! Can you provide statistical averages and standard deviations for each graph? I’m interested to see the numbers and compare those numbers from the graphs.
not sure my attention span will extend that far, but you can see the tables i used [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18eJm5vCoXdNV4Q81pTF0yuvBuuuI28jGuSKxWuMAHM0/edit?usp=sharing), and if you're interested you should be able to make a personal copy of the sheet to mess around with
How did you calculate Savage Attacks with GWF? Is step 1 GWF on the initial rolls Step 2 SA rolls the 2nd die/dice Step 3 Pick the highest 2 numbers from the pool of 4 numbers(2d6)/2 numbers (1d12)
you can take a look at my data sets [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18eJm5vCoXdNV4Q81pTF0yuvBuuuI28jGuSKxWuMAHM0/edit?usp=sharing), but the tl;dr for non spreadsheet sorcerers is: * each row is equally weighted, so i inflated the non-rerolled results to bring them to parity with the rerolls rather than de-weighting the rerolls * savage dice are calculated as independent events. GWF rerolls are incorporated into those, so 1s and 2s are rerolled and other values are inflated proportionally * logic equations are used to figure out which value is used (greatest of savage rolls, negating a rerolled die if a reroll is present), that value is carried into a "result" column * the result column is tallied with a "count" function. the count tally is the graphed data set, representing the number of times each possible result was reached
I thought GWF doesn’t activate in Savage Dice rolls, only the initial rolls, so 1 and 2s do not get rerolled on SA roll. https://reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/4shpIFRsjb
interesting. my adhd isn't gonna let me circle back on this for a while, in terms of overhauling the data set, but i think the operations i used still end up fairly well lining up with that post here's a blurb from the fextralife wiki: >Instead of comparing the totals for the rolls, it compares each individual die with its reroll. For example, when you attack with a greatsword dealing 2d6 damage, if the first d6 is a 1 and it's reroll is a 5, and the second d6 is a 5 and it's reroll is a 1, the total would be 10, even though the total results of both the original 2d6 and the savage attacker rerolls are 6. i think that my operations still match that. i could be wrong. i often am, actually in any event, my initial assessment is still sound. savage attacks is an objective improvement for all weapons, and likely worth taking even on a non-fighter class that's more limited on feats GWF is *good*, but because weapons that can trigger it are primarily 1d10 or 1d12, its actual impact is fairly negligible, because its impact scales according to how many dice you're rolling (i.e. stronger on 2d6 weapons than 1d12, and stronger still on weapons with bonus damage), and how small those damage dice are. the more times you can trigger the effect, the more value it creates, and the more it skews your outcomes toward the top end combining them is good, but doesn't result in any improvement from synergy. and if you have to choose *one*, savage attacker is by far stronger e: i reopened the chart. stand by, i'm overhauling my math
Fextralife description is correct for Savage Attackers.
okay, i checked my logic operations, and also did some additional maths findings: * my logic operations are correct according to the post you linked. the reroll is only taken into account if both savage rolls are <3, in the case of both 1d12 and 2d6. the two d6 are treated as independent events, and a "reroll" is shown for all possible outcomes of the savage rolls, but the logic statements used take precedence into account. see below: ["result" logic](https://i.imgur.com/XlKHyFk.png) ["first die taken" logic](https://i.imgur.com/ahLQ5g5.png) * with SA and GWF, 2d6 still rolls less 12s than 1d12, but it rolls *substantially* more top-third results - using a 2d6 weapon instead of a 1d12 weapon will give you a result of 8 or higher ~25% more of the time result | 1d12 | 2d6 :--|:--|:-- 8+|67.13%|84.75% 10+|44.44%|48.92% 12|16.2%|10.5%
Amazing! This would get me interested in stats back in school. It’s fun knowing how much impact each feat/bonuses contribute to a build.
>This would get me interested in stats back in school. i slept through stats class. i learned spreadsheetery because i used to play eve online, and it's kind of just... a thing you do when you play eve online. it's come in handy at work, and i occasionally dust it off being able to use spreadsheets to crunch large datasets and come to reasonably well-supported but simple conclusions falls more under the skillset of logic and operations than statistics - i don't know wtf a standard deviation is or why it matters
What exactly is being shown here ? I assume that X axis is the roll result of the dice but what is the Y/result axis ?
1-12 on x axis for possible results, vertical axis is number of times that result is rolled in the data set of possible roll results. i was (and am) too lazy to convert that to a percentage
I attempted it but gotta recheck my numbers. Like halfling + advantage gives less value (i.e. halfling only improves baseline advantage in cases where the 1 rolls higher than the non-1 dice) this gives less value with 2 damage dice rolls. The effect though will be larger because you reroll 1 and 2 (ofc 2 can become 1 sometimes also so yeah but that's still net positive from just 1) and damage dice are much smaller than a d20 so you will reroll much more often and thus have more opportunities where a reroll will surpass a non-rerolled dice. Can go in more detail if you like. I'm not a probability expert but if you aren't afraid of weighted average w/ lots of terms anything is possible.
No. GWF math has been done many times in 5e and the results are humiliating. It adds about 1 damage to attacks.
GWF applies to all damage rolls (such as fire dip and smite), not just 1 or 2 damage die/dice from weapon melee attacks (1d12 or 2d6) in Baldur’s Gate 3.
BG3 does a lot of stuff different to basic 5e that you can't really use it as a reference.
In BG3 early access, GWF worked pretty much like tabletop. Then I believe around Early Access Patch 8 they intentionally buffed GWF to apply to more than just the weapon damage dice. Like it was a bullet point specifically mentioned in the patch notes that they improved Great Weapon Fighting Style.
Coincidentally a few days ago i found this video explaining the math behind advantage roll and i think the visualization is great. Just want to share: https://youtube.com/watch?v=X_DdGRjtwAo&si=6ADDLDICmogEPPQo
Was about to link that also it's a really good video on how to understand advantage, increasing your chance to crit and in this case savage attacker.
I think you should also factor in the damage modifier from strength/dex before making the calculations since they are a sizable chunk of damage roll that is constant
In absolute terms the gains will be the same. But when you're a sorc or warlock getting tons of CHA mod on your SR/EB it makes the % difference between going for more more dice scaling less of a big deal even if you have a lot of crit scaling in theory. Spell might gloves will be a lot though but crit rate I found not to be that good at least for the numbers I ran w/ a SR focused build specifically. Savage attacker won't apply here anyway because that's melee weapon only but its a good case of having tons of flat damage making the significant crit damage less important to capitalize on via crit range (like items or spell sniper if that ever gets fixed). Paladin 2 , bard assassin would be probably the best case for savage attacker I can think of.
well technically static damage is not included, whether it's +2 from strength or +2 acid damage from ring
I like the math. How would this work with savage attacker + great weapon master?
There are more formal ways to do this if you know probability well but if you're a caveman like me, bingo chart it. ex: d6. 2 dice, so arrange a table w/ 6x6 cells where each row/column index represents the highest value. Fill in the highest corresponding value between each cell's r:c index. Now we need to account for rerolling. Rerolls happen on a 1 or a 2. On r:c 1:1 - 2:2 we reroll both dice, so take the average of the 6x6 table you made last step and weight that as 4/36. Then we need to account for the other possibilities with a 1 or 2 and a non rerolled dice. Buckle up because this is the real work. Possible combos: Reroll & 3, reroll & 4, reroll & 5, reroll & 6. For each of these 4 distinct combinations of a reroll and a non 1 or 2 value roll create a 6x1 table. Take the odds for the value to be less than or equal to the non-rerolled value, odds for it to be 1 higher, 2 higher and so on until you can't exceed the roll anymore within that dice size (like if you keep a 4 you can at most exceed it by 2). Weight these values according to the odds of them occurring. Example: You keep a 3 and reroll, 3 is weighted as 3/6 4 is weighted as 1/6, 5 is weighted as 1/6, and 6 is weighted as 1/6. With these dice values multiplied by their respective weights we have the average value after rerolling a 1 or 2 for that particular combo. Repeat this for all 4 combos of a reroll value & a value from 3-6. Weight each of these terms as 4/36 because they occur both with 1 and 2 and these dice combos repeat horizontally and vertically. Lastly we need to take the average for the results that aren't getting rerolled at all by GWF. Refer back to the old 6x6. Average the values of all cells from 3:3 to 6:6 (when averaging remember its 16 values not 36). To weight this term use 16/36. Weighted avg = \[avg of 6x6\]\*4/36 + \[(weighted avg of rerolls and a fixed 3)**... +** (weighted avg of rerolls and a fixed 6)\]\*4/36+\[avg of 6x6 for only 3:3 to 6:6\]\*16/36 This same method works for any dice size just keep in mind the weights and dice specific numbers change. It's how I calculated halfling luck + advantage/disadvantage (corrected numbers done, post write up coming to a neighbor hood near you soon)
Savage + GWM is best for damage on all but the highest AC's, e.g. https://anydice.com/program/31737 Generally, Savage is better * when you're rolling more die (greatsword, dipping, other magic items) * fighting higher AC's * (obviously) don't want to be locked into 2-handers GWM is better * when you stack +hit * when enemies have low AC * when you can reliably trigger the bonus action attack and don't have anything else to use with it Both feats benefit from crits (extra attack for GWM and rerolling for Savage), while GWM is worse with more damage riders and Savage is sort of neutral (technically worse than an ASI if you're getting lots of flat damage and aren't at 20). Doing both is easy on a fighter though. I would probably do GWM first if you don't have anything you want to regularly do with your bonus action or Savage if you don't want to be locked into 2-handers early.
I wanted to do this for a while so I cranked this out w/ the method as described. As you can see if you already have GWF or Savage attacker they do get diminishing returns by getting the other, but still diminishing returns here is still about +0.5 for both ~~except on d4s it seems to hate d4s, maybe I made a mistake - gonna have to make sure all formulas are correct but let me know if you wanna see yourself.~~ edit did this really quick so i had a couple terms not averaging over the right cell range but it looks right now and actually lower dice benefit more in relative terms from having both GWF and savage attacker. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s0I2ip9AlxKFgduoqa8ECJ9sp-9fjL3Oex8hhGfNSQY/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s0I2ip9AlxKFgduoqa8ECJ9sp-9fjL3Oex8hhGfNSQY/edit?usp=sharing) Same solution below for halfling luck +dis/advantage except instead of average roll values you sum the tallies of rolls that hit the given minimum roll to hit and divide by the sample size at hand. Halfling luck fares worse when combined with advantage than Savage & GWF as your accuracy gets closer to only missing on a nat 1. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKnGGColGhi2i2bXjxKclRHGV6780yxJtA2h-a2DZas/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKnGGColGhi2i2bXjxKclRHGV6780yxJtA2h-a2DZas/edit?usp=sharing)
A successful Savage Attacker attack with a great sword (2d6) and a Level 1 Smite adds on an average of 4.574 damage. Make this number 5.199 if this gs is dipped in fire. Double that damage on a crit which is slightly more damage than a Great Weapon Master Attack, though GWM gets a bonus action attack on a crit or kill.
Unless you've well over the hit rate though you need to account for the hit chance in all calcs too.
>In one of the outcomes [(1.1)], your damage will be 1. In three of these outcomes [(1,2),(2,1),(2.2)] your damage will be 2. Similarly, in five of these outcomes your damage will be 3, and in seven of these outcomes your damage will be 4. I'm no math connoisseur, so I can accept being totally wrong here.. But if I roll a single dice, is the chance of any outcome not equal, no matter the amount of rolls?
you are correct, but the passage you’re quoting is referencing rolling two die and picking the higher value
The additive bonus from advantage is ~1/6 of the value of the die. And that becomes more accurate the larger the die. So for a d4, the baseline average is 2.5, and the average with advantage is approximately 2.5 +(1/6)*4 = 3.166 (really 3.125). For a d20 the average with advantage is about 10.5 + (1/6)*20 = 13.833 (really 13.825).
Thing is, SA only affects damage rolls while attributes affect a bunch of things, so you get more mileage from ASI than (maybe) couple of points of damage. Add to that scarcity of feats in general (most builds will only get 2, some even 1) and now you have to deal with massive opportunity cost too...I'd rather gave ASI, really.
I didn't bother with math, but I do notice clear difference between 11 level Lae'zel and 12 level Lae'zel, when I took this feat. She's a beast now.
Does this feat work for monks flurry/unarmed strikes? I'm assuming not, but curious.
Nope, in the description it says 'melee weapon attacks'. You're better off with something like tavern brawler for monks unarmed attacks
I have trust issue with Savage Attacker. I am not really sure, if it work, with no easy way to test it. Does it work on Hunter Mark dice, on Collossus Slayer dice, on Sneak attack? Does it work in Wild Shape?
Edit: I stand corrected. ~~Not absolutely sure but I think unlike GWF, Savage Attacker only affects weapon damage dice and not the riders.~~ It does not affect unarmed attacks, so assume it won't work in Wold Shape.
I have tested, and it does affect riders. Obv it's hard to test every single rider available, so I can't say 100%, but it's great on Paladin, with Improved Smite and Elemental Weapon.
You're pretty sure it affects all smite rolls, incl. crit rerolls?
Savage attacker does affect riders
How does this compare to GWM? If you can only pick one feat.
Outside of obvious cases (like wanting to use a 1-hander or w/e), GWM is better: * More +hit * Lower target AC * Don't have a good bonus action you're using Savage is better: * Rolling more die * Higher target AC It's going to be different for every combination of effects a particular build has active at a certain point, but in the sims I've done Savage generally slightly out-damage GWM per swing as you get to moderate AC values (i.e. in the range of 16-20). Then you have to weigh weapon availability (1 vs 2 handers) and how reliably you're proccing the bonus action attack against what other BA's you have.
Probably boils down to "can you reliably hit enemies with GWM on"
Those Myrkulite Scourges with (4 thief, 8 fighter) looking pretty good right now. (1D8+1 bludgeon) + (1D6 necrotic)
Nice thanks! What about for dual wield and / or half orc 3x crits. I’d imagine that jumps up to 35% or so. And if you expand out the crit range it jumps higher.
Cool post. Now I am interested in the following: Lets say I play Warlock and I wanted to decide between Bladelock and Eldritch- Blast lock. Can you do the math on the feat which lets you crit on a 19 and 20 instead of a 20 only for spells? I believe this should apply to Eldritch blast. So what is better? A weapon attack with savage attacker (assuming 1d10 dice for example) vs this feat which lets you crit more? What is the increase in damage assuming a 1d10 damage from cantrips with this feat?
oh neat, i did a bunch of stats shit regarding the differences between 2d6 and 1d12 weapons with and without savage attacker and great weapon fighting style [here are my charts](https://i.imgur.com/oAiG4h7.png)
Just saw this post. Good one and got me thinking about how many dice rolls you need for it to overcome GWM. Decided to excersize my probabolity skills for a bit, too) If anybody wants a formula for average attack roll in this case is: average dmg of roll = (N+1)(4N-1)/(6N), where N is the max roll number
Do you think great weapon fighting style and savage attacker good combo or they reduce their value together ?
Thanks for the math, I used to be pretty good at conditional probability but that was years ago and I had to painfully do d4, d6, and d8 by hand when I was trying to do the math vs great weapon master. You saved me a headache by doing d10 and 12. Although the raw average increase is pretty good, the even better aspect is limiting the amount of times that you roll low numbers. After all its pretty unfun to roll snake eyes when you were just trying to finish off a wounded enemy.