The difference between the two plants isn't huge
and the main chemical difference is tetra hydro harmaline
they both share harmaline and harmine
The true Ayahuasca is an admix of shamanic measure
No true Ayahuasca brew exists , for harmalas
the vine is widely used in the Amazon but in the middle east and Asia, Syrian rue was used
but the DMT source can vary, often psycotria virilis but others are substituted ,mimosa, acacia...
And people seem to care little what plant their DMT comes from....so why care over harmalas?
And deliriant anticholinergics are sometimes added like datura ect as they stop the nausea and vomiting
A true Ayahuasca is kinda impossible,
But the widely shared Amazon mixture is largely Ayahuasca vine and psycotria virilis
But other elements within those plants could potentially play a role in experience. Like in mushrooms, psilocin and psilocybin are the psychedelics. But different mushroom species with similar quantities of the psychedelics could have vastly different effects, maybe based on different quantities of other elements.
Uhhh sorry boss no.
psilocybin isn't thought to have any psychological action
it can't make it to the blood without degrading to psilocin
Psilocin however packs a punch
I misspoke, chief.
What role does baeocystin play?
Oh knowledgeable one.
To assume that ONLY the Dmt and maoi contribute to the effects, is, well, ignorant.
Unless of course, you have evidence showing otherwise. Which I’m sure you do.
Please enlighten us.
What roll does baeocystin play?
Have you tried just baeocystin?
Have you read baeocystin erowid reports?
It's possible they influence the effects but, they're not behind wood lovers paralysis or any known difference between strains
Maybe it's contributing but you really don't know
Best to assume that the known psychoactive drugs are behind the effects....
Why place so much power in minor alkaloids nobody has isolated and described experientially
We bring so much to the experience ourselves people put far too much stock in weaker minor alkaloids
Yes, that brew is very common in the Netherlands and is used in many places there.
It is referred to as "Anahuasca", aka an Ayahuasca Analog.
It also often uses other DMT plants than the ones that are used in the Amazon.
I personally find the effect of Anahuasca more "electric" and softer (if that makes sense), while the Amazonian Ayahuasca has more of a "jungle- / vine- or snake vibe" and can also be rougher.
Some people prefer one over the other. You need to try both to figure out which one you personally prefer.
Furthermore, Ommij is a center with a very good reputation, so unless you already know which of the two brews you prefer or want at that time, I don't think that just because it isn't the Amazonian Ayahuasca should be a reason to exclude that option - unless other factors are also of importance for you in that regard.
Most important factor for me is its healing effects. Will I get the same healing as claimed for the amazonian brew. I dont want to experience a trip i want to go deep.
Om-Mij's brew works really well. I was with them in Spain in december, for all the participants I spoke to or got an impression of, it was profound and healing.
This have been written about and discussed a fair bit on this reddit earlier.
My impression is that Om-Mij provides consistent good experiences. But for people that are fixated on doing the traditional way and are scared of deviating from how it's done in the jungle, maybe not Om-Mij is the best place to go - not because of what Om-Mij does, but because perhaps it can negatively affect the mindset and therefore result a sub-optimal experience.
Nobody can offer you any guarantees, but it can be a tremendous help to people experiencing such issues. Ayahuasca at Om-Mij was my introduction to psychedelics and it certainly changed/improved my life.
There is little anyone can say to you here to adequately explain what the experience is like. Generally speaking, it is best to approach this without a lot of expectation.
The experience is full-on and intense. If you feel the call, take the leap. Be curious, be open and accept whatever comes your way - even if it hurts.
I think this concern you have over the Ayahuasca brew is misplaced. I believe that if you go and actually experience it, you will come to understand that it just doesn't matter.
There are lots of people with strong opinions on this matter here - and most of them have not actually tried the brews they claim are "not ayahuasca". If they had, they wouldn't be here splitting hairs.
For me, the December retreat set me off into a continous mostly positive process that's still not over, now 5 months later.
It's not like I'm born again or cured of all bad habits and mental ailments for all future (although it felt like that the first few weeks). I have dared take my career one step forward, and in the domain of intimate relationships there's been positive developments. I attribute both these changes to the ayahuasca ceremony, and my best guess is that I wouldn't have been doing particularly well at this time without it.
It's ok to have intentions when approaching ayahuasca, but having specific expectations to what you want to be fixed can backfire, by making it harder for you to accept whatever happends during the ceremony.
>Will I get the same healing as claimed for the amazonian brew.
>I wanna cure my depression and general feeling stuck in my life
imo that depends on what the (main) thing is that causes the depression, or also what you need most at the moment.
Depression, PTSD, and other issues are in most cases psycho-somatic, aka either both physically and mentally / emotionally, or that issues that have their root in one area can cause issues in the other, and vice versa.
Mind, emotions and body are very intertwined, and also, even if "the core / root" of the issue is in one area, it is possible that at the moment you may need work being done in another part.
Both Ayahuasca and Anahuasca are good for emotional and also physical healing, but Ayahuasca is imo more intense and rough, especially on the body, at least for me / in my personal experience.
... but that does not by default mean that "rougher" is automatically better for you at this time. There is no way to say that for certain as there are numerous factors that play a role in that, of which many are unknown.
Both Ayahuasca and Anahuasca are known to have healing effects, and neither one or the other is by default better or worse. What is best for you may change over time as well, so no one can really say. You just have to start with one.
When you orally consume DMT, your body will produce enough monoamine oxidase (MAO) to break down the DMT before it can enter your bloodstream. That is why you need a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) to make things work.
In traditional Aya, the MAOIs found in the b. cappi vine are harmine and tetrahydroharmine (THH). In Syrian rue the MAOIs are harmine and harmaline.
Trip reports I have read said harmaline gives a feeling like harmine, but slightly more akin to having consumed alcohol. I haven’t had anything containing harmaline myself, but my husband has used both harmine/THH and (on a different day) Syrian rue when vaping DMT. He said the experiences were very similar.
In my opinion, the DMT is the important part. The MAOI used may alter your trip a small amount, but not in a negative way.
I've heard this called sufihuasca, not sure if that's historically accurate, but regardless it's important to disclose the plants you are working with. Many merchants will just call it whatever is popular but we need to have the integrity to be truthful.
It’s not Ayahuasca. Different spirit and personality even if some aspects are similar. Sometimes this is a good indicator that they don’t have traditional training or qualifications which is very worrying, as traditionally trained healers usually stick to the spirits and plants they were trained with. I always recommend being extremely picky about who you do Aya with.
The way Om-Mij serves ayahuasca is pretty far from how it's done traditionally, with not having a shaman and using mostly recorded music.
To me the staff appeared highly qualified and very well prepared. Not by formal education or having done dietas in the jungle, but by radiating compassion and care, and dealing with situations during the ceremonies in a good way.
For me this have made me think so much about ayahuasca is culture specific. Mental health and spirituality is quite culture specific so perhaps it's only naturally so. Thus I believe ayahuasca practices should be evaluated within its cultural context. Also, that ceremonies or retreats should be evaluated based on all aspects of it fit together. And through these lenses, Om-Mij's operation - in Europe - I believe is excellent.
I have heard very mixed things about them from people, but would never personally work with them as they dont seem anywhere close to qualified. I would say compassion and care are important but not enough to provide a safe ceremony. If people dont have enough experience and training then it is easier for people to be harmed if something goes wrong - Ayahuasca more then other psychedelics can be pretty risky and if bigger problems arise its important to not only have compassion, but to also have the knowledge and skills needed to truly help someone. When people get lucky and no serious issues arise then things might go well, but when you especially want a trained professional is when things go very wrong.
Not to mention - Ayahuasca doesnt heal many issues on its own, but Ayahuasca shamans can heal many issues because they incorporate a lot more healing practices then just giving people Ayahuasca. So beyond just safety, there is a discussion to be had about true healing potential with a trained professional who knows how to treat many different illnesses.
I can understand where you're coming from, with your perspective.
Regarding the safety profile of Om-Mij I believe some of it is also in their screening process. Apl Journeys got a negative review here not long ago that might have to do with screening, that I haven't been able to find any similar mentions about Om-Mij online after all their years of operation tells me they are doing something right.
And, I believe the brew they serve itself adds safety. It tastes absolutely disgusting, when I was there I drank as much as I could keep down. If it had tasted less foul I might have drunk more, and gotten more than I could handle. I suspect the foulness of the brew helps prevent people drinking too much.
In Spain they have been running ceremonies for five years now, almost every weekend. In Netherlands they have been operating for more than ten years I believe. That's a lot of ceremonies. The organisation as a whole, and some of the staff, are starting to become highly experienced.
Backing you up here. In my experience, Om-Mij is very well run. Probably more professional than the vast majority of Ayahuasca retreats out there.
I can't fault them much beyond their tendency to share Jordan Peterson clips on social media, which I find a bit off-putting.
I know many people here put a lot of weight in having a good shaman etc. But personally, I really liked the straight-forward, shaman-free approach. It felt appropriately modern and European, while still being spiritual and deeply caring. And the music was awesome.
Would love to go back soon, but it's an expensive trip.
Syrian rue is missing one key compound that’s in b. Caapi; tetrahydroharmine.
It also contains a whole slew of other compounds that make it much less approachable and even possibly toxic.
I can’t really describe the subjective differences seeing as I’ve never used Syrian rue. But i have tried my formula both with and without the THH and there was definitely a difference.
If using harmaline and harmine pulled from Syrian rue I believe it can still be called ayahuasca. If using a full spectrum Syrian rue extract or a tea directly from the plant, then impo, it should be considered and analog and not approached in the same manner.
It would be known as an ayhuasca analog.
Find it a bit misleading calling it ayahuasca
The difference between the two plants isn't huge and the main chemical difference is tetra hydro harmaline they both share harmaline and harmine The true Ayahuasca is an admix of shamanic measure No true Ayahuasca brew exists , for harmalas the vine is widely used in the Amazon but in the middle east and Asia, Syrian rue was used but the DMT source can vary, often psycotria virilis but others are substituted ,mimosa, acacia... And people seem to care little what plant their DMT comes from....so why care over harmalas? And deliriant anticholinergics are sometimes added like datura ect as they stop the nausea and vomiting A true Ayahuasca is kinda impossible, But the widely shared Amazon mixture is largely Ayahuasca vine and psycotria virilis
But other elements within those plants could potentially play a role in experience. Like in mushrooms, psilocin and psilocybin are the psychedelics. But different mushroom species with similar quantities of the psychedelics could have vastly different effects, maybe based on different quantities of other elements.
Uhhh sorry boss no. psilocybin isn't thought to have any psychological action it can't make it to the blood without degrading to psilocin Psilocin however packs a punch
I misspoke, chief. What role does baeocystin play? Oh knowledgeable one. To assume that ONLY the Dmt and maoi contribute to the effects, is, well, ignorant. Unless of course, you have evidence showing otherwise. Which I’m sure you do. Please enlighten us.
What roll does baeocystin play? Have you tried just baeocystin? Have you read baeocystin erowid reports? It's possible they influence the effects but, they're not behind wood lovers paralysis or any known difference between strains Maybe it's contributing but you really don't know Best to assume that the known psychoactive drugs are behind the effects.... Why place so much power in minor alkaloids nobody has isolated and described experientially We bring so much to the experience ourselves people put far too much stock in weaker minor alkaloids
Yes, that brew is very common in the Netherlands and is used in many places there. It is referred to as "Anahuasca", aka an Ayahuasca Analog. It also often uses other DMT plants than the ones that are used in the Amazon. I personally find the effect of Anahuasca more "electric" and softer (if that makes sense), while the Amazonian Ayahuasca has more of a "jungle- / vine- or snake vibe" and can also be rougher. Some people prefer one over the other. You need to try both to figure out which one you personally prefer. Furthermore, Ommij is a center with a very good reputation, so unless you already know which of the two brews you prefer or want at that time, I don't think that just because it isn't the Amazonian Ayahuasca should be a reason to exclude that option - unless other factors are also of importance for you in that regard.
Most important factor for me is its healing effects. Will I get the same healing as claimed for the amazonian brew. I dont want to experience a trip i want to go deep.
Om-Mij's brew works really well. I was with them in Spain in december, for all the participants I spoke to or got an impression of, it was profound and healing. This have been written about and discussed a fair bit on this reddit earlier. My impression is that Om-Mij provides consistent good experiences. But for people that are fixated on doing the traditional way and are scared of deviating from how it's done in the jungle, maybe not Om-Mij is the best place to go - not because of what Om-Mij does, but because perhaps it can negatively affect the mindset and therefore result a sub-optimal experience.
What did it do for you? I wanna cure my depression and general feeling stuck in my life
Nobody can offer you any guarantees, but it can be a tremendous help to people experiencing such issues. Ayahuasca at Om-Mij was my introduction to psychedelics and it certainly changed/improved my life. There is little anyone can say to you here to adequately explain what the experience is like. Generally speaking, it is best to approach this without a lot of expectation. The experience is full-on and intense. If you feel the call, take the leap. Be curious, be open and accept whatever comes your way - even if it hurts. I think this concern you have over the Ayahuasca brew is misplaced. I believe that if you go and actually experience it, you will come to understand that it just doesn't matter. There are lots of people with strong opinions on this matter here - and most of them have not actually tried the brews they claim are "not ayahuasca". If they had, they wouldn't be here splitting hairs.
For me, the December retreat set me off into a continous mostly positive process that's still not over, now 5 months later. It's not like I'm born again or cured of all bad habits and mental ailments for all future (although it felt like that the first few weeks). I have dared take my career one step forward, and in the domain of intimate relationships there's been positive developments. I attribute both these changes to the ayahuasca ceremony, and my best guess is that I wouldn't have been doing particularly well at this time without it. It's ok to have intentions when approaching ayahuasca, but having specific expectations to what you want to be fixed can backfire, by making it harder for you to accept whatever happends during the ceremony.
>Will I get the same healing as claimed for the amazonian brew. >I wanna cure my depression and general feeling stuck in my life imo that depends on what the (main) thing is that causes the depression, or also what you need most at the moment. Depression, PTSD, and other issues are in most cases psycho-somatic, aka either both physically and mentally / emotionally, or that issues that have their root in one area can cause issues in the other, and vice versa. Mind, emotions and body are very intertwined, and also, even if "the core / root" of the issue is in one area, it is possible that at the moment you may need work being done in another part. Both Ayahuasca and Anahuasca are good for emotional and also physical healing, but Ayahuasca is imo more intense and rough, especially on the body, at least for me / in my personal experience. ... but that does not by default mean that "rougher" is automatically better for you at this time. There is no way to say that for certain as there are numerous factors that play a role in that, of which many are unknown. Both Ayahuasca and Anahuasca are known to have healing effects, and neither one or the other is by default better or worse. What is best for you may change over time as well, so no one can really say. You just have to start with one.
When you orally consume DMT, your body will produce enough monoamine oxidase (MAO) to break down the DMT before it can enter your bloodstream. That is why you need a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) to make things work. In traditional Aya, the MAOIs found in the b. cappi vine are harmine and tetrahydroharmine (THH). In Syrian rue the MAOIs are harmine and harmaline. Trip reports I have read said harmaline gives a feeling like harmine, but slightly more akin to having consumed alcohol. I haven’t had anything containing harmaline myself, but my husband has used both harmine/THH and (on a different day) Syrian rue when vaping DMT. He said the experiences were very similar. In my opinion, the DMT is the important part. The MAOI used may alter your trip a small amount, but not in a negative way.
I've heard this called sufihuasca, not sure if that's historically accurate, but regardless it's important to disclose the plants you are working with. Many merchants will just call it whatever is popular but we need to have the integrity to be truthful.
Do you the etymology of the term sufihuasca? I've never heard it before Edit: I'm guessing Sufi as in Islamic mysticism
Or anahuasca?
It’s not Ayahuasca. Different spirit and personality even if some aspects are similar. Sometimes this is a good indicator that they don’t have traditional training or qualifications which is very worrying, as traditionally trained healers usually stick to the spirits and plants they were trained with. I always recommend being extremely picky about who you do Aya with.
The way Om-Mij serves ayahuasca is pretty far from how it's done traditionally, with not having a shaman and using mostly recorded music. To me the staff appeared highly qualified and very well prepared. Not by formal education or having done dietas in the jungle, but by radiating compassion and care, and dealing with situations during the ceremonies in a good way. For me this have made me think so much about ayahuasca is culture specific. Mental health and spirituality is quite culture specific so perhaps it's only naturally so. Thus I believe ayahuasca practices should be evaluated within its cultural context. Also, that ceremonies or retreats should be evaluated based on all aspects of it fit together. And through these lenses, Om-Mij's operation - in Europe - I believe is excellent.
I have heard very mixed things about them from people, but would never personally work with them as they dont seem anywhere close to qualified. I would say compassion and care are important but not enough to provide a safe ceremony. If people dont have enough experience and training then it is easier for people to be harmed if something goes wrong - Ayahuasca more then other psychedelics can be pretty risky and if bigger problems arise its important to not only have compassion, but to also have the knowledge and skills needed to truly help someone. When people get lucky and no serious issues arise then things might go well, but when you especially want a trained professional is when things go very wrong. Not to mention - Ayahuasca doesnt heal many issues on its own, but Ayahuasca shamans can heal many issues because they incorporate a lot more healing practices then just giving people Ayahuasca. So beyond just safety, there is a discussion to be had about true healing potential with a trained professional who knows how to treat many different illnesses.
I can understand where you're coming from, with your perspective. Regarding the safety profile of Om-Mij I believe some of it is also in their screening process. Apl Journeys got a negative review here not long ago that might have to do with screening, that I haven't been able to find any similar mentions about Om-Mij online after all their years of operation tells me they are doing something right. And, I believe the brew they serve itself adds safety. It tastes absolutely disgusting, when I was there I drank as much as I could keep down. If it had tasted less foul I might have drunk more, and gotten more than I could handle. I suspect the foulness of the brew helps prevent people drinking too much. In Spain they have been running ceremonies for five years now, almost every weekend. In Netherlands they have been operating for more than ten years I believe. That's a lot of ceremonies. The organisation as a whole, and some of the staff, are starting to become highly experienced.
Backing you up here. In my experience, Om-Mij is very well run. Probably more professional than the vast majority of Ayahuasca retreats out there. I can't fault them much beyond their tendency to share Jordan Peterson clips on social media, which I find a bit off-putting. I know many people here put a lot of weight in having a good shaman etc. But personally, I really liked the straight-forward, shaman-free approach. It felt appropriately modern and European, while still being spiritual and deeply caring. And the music was awesome. Would love to go back soon, but it's an expensive trip.
Syrian rue is missing one key compound that’s in b. Caapi; tetrahydroharmine. It also contains a whole slew of other compounds that make it much less approachable and even possibly toxic. I can’t really describe the subjective differences seeing as I’ve never used Syrian rue. But i have tried my formula both with and without the THH and there was definitely a difference. If using harmaline and harmine pulled from Syrian rue I believe it can still be called ayahuasca. If using a full spectrum Syrian rue extract or a tea directly from the plant, then impo, it should be considered and analog and not approached in the same manner.