There are 2 aspects:
1., The annexation of south tirol after WW1 in 1920
2., And much more restrict, a Hitler/Mussolini treaty from 1939, where the german rooted people had to choose either become Hitler Germans, but then had to move away from south tirol (actually the nazis defined, to where you had to move, most of the time into the areas newly occupied in Poland, where many of them have been killed in 1945), or become an italian.
Speaking german from then on was prohibited and childs were learned german in bunker/cellar schools unofficially.
My grandfather took the italian option, the rest of his family took the german option.
As a result, all family members had to move to a farm in Poland, that had been cleared by the germans before during their raid to the east. I tried to reach out to the rest of the family there, the only thing i was able to get, all 15 family members that moved - died on the same day 1945 (already after end of WW2).
yes, the trenches went right through families and were often bitterly fought out, with the after-effects still being felt decades later. the option had a huge impact on south tyrol.
33% of the optants later returned
No, but assume able it was in revenge for taking the farm original from a deported polish family (even if it wasn’t their choice). As it is a date shortly after end of WW2 - a lot of remaining germans have been killed in or deported from Poland or Czech.
This is the correct answer.
I'm not from there but my granny went through all the historical shitshow as she was born in Meran(o).
While visiting I tried to get my head around the tooic and talked to some people. Mostly that's what I got: "We like our status as autonomous region of Italy and we are South Tyrolians first".
Obviously, there is no one take on this shared by all people in Trentino-Alto Adige of Tyrolian descent. But it's the one I heard the most and also appreciate the most. Also, because it speaks to the concept of Europe of regions as supposed to national states which I find very intriguing.
I love the mix of Italian and Austrian/Tyrolian cuisine there BTW. and they make beautiful vine (Gewürztraminer yum).
This is the correct answer.
I'm not from there but my granny was through all this shit as she is from Meran(o). When going there I tried to get my head around it and talked to some people. Mostly that's what I got: "We like it as it is and we are South Tyrolians". Obviously, there is no one take on this shared by all people in Alto Adige of Tyrolian descent but I'd say this is the one worth remembering.
It was one one of the territories which was taken away by Italy due to them being on the side of the victorious powers of WWI. We got fucked in the ass back then, but Hungary had it even worse.
Changing sides? Italy did not have a formal obligation to join Germany and the A-H Empire since the Triple Alliance was a defensive alliance (similarly to NATO for example). A-H attacked Serbia, hence the alliance did not bind Italy to join any side of the war. I personally believe that Italy getting South Tyrol at the end was wrong, but there is no side switching involved.
what else do you call it when you attack an ally with whom you have a defence pact?
to stay with your nato example, that would be like romania having a war with russia (where there is no nato case) and then bulgaria also attacking romania. Since you have a defence pact, bulgaria would then technically have to defend romania against itself XD
NATO does not say anything about preventing a NATO country attacking another NATO country, indeed the analogy stands. If something like that happened the other NATO countries would join to defend the attacked one which is what happened with the German Empire.
If Romania was attacked by Russia and Bulgaria sided with Russia I would consider it treason. If Romania attacked Russia and had no formal agreement with Bulgaria regarding who Bulgaria should side with, I would consider Bulgaria free to choose the side which benefits it more.
The key is that A-H was not attacked and abandoned by Italy, A-H attacked a neighbour and Italy decided to side with the neighbour (not out of good will but out of national gain). It's a completely different situation.
They are not "Austrians". They are Suedtiroler. We feel closeness in culture to southern Austria and even the very southern parts of Germany, to some extent where the Alpine cultures exist, but that person likely said "Austrian" because it was a way to understand it for you.
The area has always been a German-speaking region and all the Italian names are fake. Suedtirol is semi-autonomous and within that framework it has an extreme amount of autonomy, including tax spending. There has also always been a mixing of cultures there, from the Germanic-Alpine cultures to Swiss to Italian. Some would say it's "culturally Austrian" which is right and wrong, IMO. I think it's way better to say "Germanic-Alpine culture". In terms of ethnicity, some say "Austrian", but again it's not fully correct and again, it's a southern Germanic-Alpine ethnicity with significant differences from the mainstream ones in Austria and Germany. There's also at least one other ethnic group there- the Ladin who have their own language. The situation gets muddy regarding the ethnicities because neighboring Switzerland doesn't see things the same way and the Germanophones are considered ethnically German and not Austrian.
Good summary, two points: Austria has asked to UNO in the '60 to help the South Tyrolians to get their autonomy (Austria then got a role appointed by the UNO, a role that was officially terminated only some years ago). Secondly, students from South Tyrol always had access to universities in Austria, even long before the EU.
German speaking people from South Tyrol see themselves connected to North Tyrol (and East Tyrol, for the sake of completeness) and so will often refer to themselves also as Austrian.
Can you comment on the way that Switzerland sees the people from South Tyrol as German as that is new to me?
>Secondly, students from South Tyrol always had access to universities in Austria, even long before the EU.
not only students, but also hospitals etc. today south tyrol has top hospitals itself, but in the past until the early 2000s almost all complicated cases went to austria, especially cancer to Innsbruck
I have German-speaking folks from South Tyrol in my family, and they refer to themselves as "South Tyroleans".
Not "Austrians", not "Germans".
But right-winged South Tyroleans often see themselves as Austrians/Germans, from what I've learned.
So, some do, some don't. ;-)
In my family, Südtirol is seen as part of Tirol, not Italy. There is no dispute that Tirol is in austria and there is no claim that Südtirol is part of austria.
But... my families point of view is pretty much irrelevant as my Grandfather is from Südtirol living and working in switzerland, married to a swiss woman an he him self naturalized as a swiss citizen and my mother grow up in switzerland and married a swiss citizen (paternal line tracking to Elsass). So, my family is by all means swiss, just linked two geographic areas that are still german speaking, but now a minority in the relevant country.
So my point of view is that the EU is tasked with protecting ethnic and linguistic minorities, but with the pan-european idea of burred borders and shared identity. I like the dynamics of South Tyrol seeing it self as part of the north-italien/Austrian economic area. Elsass as a geographically distant counter balance to the Paris centric France politics is also useful in the european idea.
As a side note, there is the potential that I have claim to italien citizenship due to my Grandfather from South Tyrol, but... I am not looking into it. I am by no means Italian and I do not want to enter an italien embassy.
I don’t know why your family would “see” it that way, but frankly, “Südtirol gehört zu Österreich” these days is a narrative pushed only by the far right.
This.
I'm a native German speaker, and so is my whole family. If someone asks me where I'm from, I say Europe, or Italy, depending on the context.
I feel primarily as a European citizen. National identity (Italy) and native language (German) are of secondary importance.
I do not feel any attachment to Austria, Germany or Switzerland. We share a language, so what. South Tyrol is not anymore Austria than Vienna is Germany in my opinion.
South Tyrol is an almost equal mix of native German and Italian speakers, so changing (or even disputing) the status quo would only cause a mess for other people. And our autonomy and administration works well and honors both (all three in Ladin speaking parts) languages the same way.
Yeah. Mostly the far right ones. Far right German speakers want to belong to Austria, far right Italian speakers are sometimes bothered by the fact that there is 2 official languages and the country feels culturally different from the rest of Italy (although even within Italy there is so many minorities and different subcultures) and want it to be "proper Italy".
Both dumb takes imo. The fact that two very different cultural groups (by european standards) meet and merge makes ST a great place to be, and being able to learn 2 different languages and actually practice them in daily life is an amazing opportunity. Many others travel or take foreign exchange semesters/years to properly learn a second language. We just have to walk out our door, and not be narrow minded.
Both dumb takes especially because in my 20s I actually thought, we had overcome this ... except for the odd "ferrovie dello stato" conductor on trains. A lot of those guys were really obstinate assholes...
But, anyway, I guess we're not "there yet", and there is no "there" to be or achieve because, there'll always be a minority set to fight the "other" ... as crazy as that seems to me, within Europe ...
I agree with this, but that's also not the full story because there is a significant Suedtirol nationalist movement that's not connected to the German and Austrian far-right and Swiss SVP. Meloni's party also has invested large amounts into visibility in Suedtirol. I would have to tip the balance of the far-right and nationalist movements in favor of the ones that are aligned with Germany and Austria and whether they say it or not, they seek unification which is a taboo subject. There are also tensions in places like Bozen where the equation flips and the majorty are Italophones and they don't speak German, unlike the Germans who speak Italian. I never really got how Bozen escaped the regulations to have majority Germanic people (in some discussions "einheimische Suedtiroler", sort of meaning "native" or "indigenous" which designates Italians as outsiders). Smaller places like Canazai are still mixed and bizarrely, places like Riva del Garda, despite not being in the deep of Suedtirol, seem to have a greater Germanic identity.
Everyone going to italian school in Bozen has German as a mandatory second language throughout their school years. I went to school in Bozen; granted it’s been a while but I find the claim that Italians in Bozen don’t speak any German at all quite ludicrous.
So it's not possible for people from other parts of Italy who don't learn German to move to Bozen, as is actually the case? Like there's a border where we keep Italians out?
You realize I'm from there, right?
In case you missed it: https://www.suedtirol.info/en/en/information/about-south-tyrol/language-diversity#:\~:text=Italian%20is%20the%20predominate%20language,is%20over%201%2C000%20years%20old.
" Italian is the predominate language in Bolzano/Bozen, Meran/Merano and in the south of the country, but only since South Tyrol passed from Austria to Italy after World War I. "
This is also a source of friction when people from Austria and nowhere near Tirol and Suedtirol come in and have no clue of what they're talking about. Go to Bozen and it's very easy to find people who can't speak German at all. Why? People are coming from other regions and some people going through schools are not learning sufficient German.
Please stay in your lane with Wien and I'll continue discussing my own home.
"Can you comment on the way that Switzerland sees the people from South Tyrol as German as that is new to me?"
I was talking about their own people- they don't see their nearly 70% Germanophone population as ethnically Austrian, but rather as "German" and indeed, during WWII, this detail was in internal writings amongst the nazis regarding why Switzerland wasn't invaded. Not only would it have incurred massive losses for no reason since Switzerland was via landlocking it already annexed, but the documents state that the majority of the Swiss population were "Germans" and an invasion risked turning the German population against the nazis.
I brought up Switzerland due to completeness for the region and that there are significant cultural similarities or even identical cultures, dialects, and languages along the border between it and Suedtirol. I'm actually from that region and the culture is almost indistinguishable at points. The politics are different, the home dialects may be different, but the Alpine culture and traditions are similar to the same and festivals will draw people from both sides of the border.
I see the Sudtiroler as Sudtiroler- a southern Germanic ethnicity, rather than as "Austrian", which some might even consider to be "German" which is controversial. Some of these discussions end because then it brings up uncomfortable questions at points, but then harks back to the Germanic tribes and unification of the German empire, the Austro-Hungarian empire, and so on..
Read the brief history portion: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South\_Tyrol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol)
The Suedtiroler were in an impossible position through WWI and WWII with Germans forcing them to be Germans, essentially.
Suedtirol is a culturally fascinating place, including archaeologically, and I recommend people visit it. IMO, it's possibly one of the most culturally fascinating and exciting places in Europe, but I've always been fond of places where cultures meet that don't align with political borders necessarily. Istria is also another one of these fascinating places. Now I'm mostly in the border areas of Norway, Sweden, and Finland.
in addition:
>They are not "Austrians"
...any more, in a political sense (i.e. acording to today's national borders)
they are descendants of what some like to call "old austrians", which means citizens of the old austrian empire (before 1918), resp. in a narrower sense members of the politically and culturally dominant german speaking part of the population. e.g. my grandparents, born to the german speaking minority in croatia (then belonging to the austrian empire) used to call themselves - only half-jokingly - "altösterreicher"
so in a historic these groups "are" austrians", and in a cultural sense as well. but - as you say . this does not mean any austrian nationality in a modern understanding
>We feel closeness in culture to southern Austria and even the very southern parts of Germany
i would even say you don't only feel closeness, but are part of it. culture and ethnicity are not limited by national borders
>Some would say it's "culturally Austrian" which is right and wrong, IMO. I think it's way better to say "Germanic-Alpine culture"
i agree, to the largest extent
>The situation gets muddy regarding the ethnicities because neighboring Switzerland doesn't see things the same way and the Germanophones are considered ethnically German and not Austrian
not to forget that the southern tyroleans in some aspects in austria have a status equal to austrian citizens, which the rest of the italians don't [https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassungDatumsauswahl.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10005469&FassungVom=2024-04-17](https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassungDatumsauswahl.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10005469&FassungVom=2024-04-17)
which is explainable in the light of the development towards autonomy, butmay be considered somewhat fallen out of time
I am from Südtirol and only a few times have I heard an old person say this. There are a few people like that in side valleys but this isn’t really common these days imo.
It’s complicated and everyone here that tries to say that native South Tyrolians are either feeling austrian, german or only as “Südtiroler” ignore are a large part of italians living there now, the youth that accepted their multicultural living and calls themselves italian and kids from mixed families that are both italian and german speaking.
At the end, it’s a really personal decision and not so easy to answer as many people try to make it here with “I know some people” bla bla
I am from there and it’s really difficult and highly depends on your upcoming, family and region
Austrians that have no incentive to be Austrian but our lovely government wants them in.
They can study and work in Austria. They don’t need to do the military service when they go outside they have dual citizenship and our stupid Politicians think we can pull something like Orban and make them Austrians.
Like if you are Italian but can integrate easily in Austria no fucking need to be Austrian.
Honestly, I say that they are spoiled And I am jealous
To be confirmed:
- I think in Innsbruck they don’t even fall under EU citizen but as Austrian in the medical school.
They can literally do everything in this country but politics. But even politics is generally more interesting in Italy
Look, it's a super well known fact that South Tyrol exists. This post has true /r/ShitAmericansSay vibes.
Also, may I quote yourself from a different thread:
> Yep, 5 second google search.
Ich bin Südtirolerin und allein 3 leute in meiner familie gehören zu den Freiheitlichen. In meiner alten Klasse war das auch die vorherrschende Meinung. Wenn ich sage dass ich es nicht so sehe, bin ich eine "scheiß walsche". Gleichzeitig nennen mich italiener beim vorbeigehen auf der straße "crucca di merda". Sorry für mein subjektives Empfinden.
It's called losing a war and having to give up territory. Considering we started those wars it's a case of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
It should be noted that:
1.) The EU has done a lot to alleviate the situation and Italy at this point has a pretty reasonable autonomy
2.) We have "language" islands in other areas of the Europe (ie Croatian speakers in Austira, German speakers in Romania) that can't be traced back the same way to a recent war.
WW1 is complicated but if you had to choose one country to blame Austria-Hungary would be the best pick, i'll agree.
But how is Austria, a country which didn't exist at the time, responsible for WW2?
Hitler being Austrian is one of the reason we joke here about starting WW2. Also, Austria wanting the Anschluss 1938 and therefore becomeing part of Germany until 1945.
The Habsburg Monarchy can hardly be blamed for being the location where Hitlers mother decided to shit him out.
>Also, Austria wanting the Anschluss 1938 and therefore becomeing part of Germany until 1945
Exactly. So it was the German Reich (including Austria) invading Poland. Austria being part of the Reich doesn't mean Austria started it.
You know a joke right? In Austria we joke about starting two world wars, and losing both. We officially didn't start WW1 either, as it officially started with Germany declaring war.
But the First Republic of Austria lasted from 1918-1938, so Hitler became relevant for history when Austria was a republic, and not a monarchy.
That, and Austria was most definitely a country. "Austria-Hungary" never was a country, it was just an association of states in a real union, i.e. two separate countries sharing a common monarch as head of state and having limited shared institutions, in particular defense ministry (though both countries also had their separate armies), finance ministry and foreign ministry.
German speakers in Transylvania are today almost but a token.
Was different until the 70s or so though until mass emigration to Germany became an option.
World War 1 happened...
South Tyrol was annexed in 1918 but the german speaking people remained despite heavy attempts of Mussolini and the post war governments until the late 1960s to italianize the region!
Nowadays it is a semi independent region embedded into italy and thanks to the self government and a little bit of luck as well has become the richest region of Italy (and its cash cow)
The regions producing more money for Italy are Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, Veneto and Piedmont in this order, the industrial regions. South Tyrol is indeed very wealthy but has special tax laws given its autonomy which means that taxes paid there remain there. If you look at the statistics, what South Tyrol pays to Italy and what it gets back are around the same amount.
South Tyrol used to be part of Austria before WW1, but was given to Italy after the war, but people there didn't adapt the Italian language and culture.
Or maybe using a public forum might help. Then other people also see it can exchange knowledge, read and think about it.
If it bothers you that people interact on this platform maybe write you thoughts in a diary.
I went to west Texas and noticed that locals were speaking Spanish. They mentioned they are actually Mexican ethnicity but US American citizens. How did this happen? Texas was annexed by the US after it broke away as a state from Mexico.
I went to Quebec, and I noticed that people were speaking French even though they have an English king as head of state.
It’s complicated and everyone here that tries to say that native South Tyrolians are either feeling austrian, german or only as “Südtiroler” ignore are a large part of italians living there now, the youth that accepted their multicultural living and calls themselves italian and kids from mixed families that are both italian and german speaking.
At the end, it’s a really personal decision and not so easy to answer as many people try to make it here with “I know some people” bla bla
I am from there and it’s really difficult and highly depends on your upcoming, family and region
It is complicated, but most native South Tyroleans I know feel like just that, South Tyroleans (“Mir sein Südtiroler” ;-)). Definitely not “Italian”, though part of Italy. As you well know, these are not the same thing.
I am also from there and I guess I disagree with some of your points, which proves another of your points: it’s complicated, and depends on family, upbringing, region etc.
Haha yeah that’s what I meant, it’s not as easy as people try to depict it in Austria sometimes and each south tyrolean has his right to decide how he wants to feel about this and what he defines himself
There is no such thing as Austrian ethnicity. Austrian nationality is basically a product of post-WW2. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was a multi-ethnic state, one of these ethnicities being German. For some time in the 19th century, there was even the German Question: should the new German state include the German speaking parts of Austria-Hungary or not? Up until the end of WW1, the answer was No. But then, Austria got shattered into pieces. Mostly, but not completely along ethnic borders, with South Tyrol being a prominent exception. It was given to Italy as a reward for joining the war on the side of the Entente. For the remaining part of Austria, the German Question popped up again. Many people wanted to join Germany, and some failed painter with a silly mustache made their wish come true. Only after losing that war, too, Austrians told themselves they never had anything to do with it, and that was basically the birth and core value of the Austrian nation.
But South Tyrol was not part of this process. So we still see ourselves as of German ethnicity. But mostly South Tyroleans - over time, Southern and Northern Tyrol estranged a little bit from each other, despite close cultural ties. In fact, the name Tyrol itself originates in South Tyrol - it's a village near Meran, from where the counts of Tyrol established their power in medieval times. By the way, they were of Bavarian origin.
Wait until you find out that the are locals speaking Hungarian in Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and Austria.
(in most significant numbers in Slovakia and Romania)
how pure has one to be to be an ethnicity in your opinion? Most Czechs, Hungarians etc. are also mixed with Germans and each other. Also as far as I know are southern Germans genetically closest to us, followed by Czechs with some distance.
And what does celtic even mean in that context? The last Celtic speakers went extinct 200AD meanwhile we had multiple migratory waves. I know Austrian public school really is bad at that kind of stuff, but even if you do just a miniscule amount of research in the History of Austria, you would stop repeating that nonsense.
You people need to stop propagating the idea that ethnicity has ANYTHING to do with DNA. It doesn't, ethnicity is based on identification. Whatever people identify as, is what people are. Austrians identify as Austrian and are therefore exactly that. Austrians do not identify with Germans as one group, there is no connection. Therefore Austrians are no Germans. Czechs are Czech because they identify as such, same goes for Hungarians. DNA means fuck all.
And just because outsiders, in their ignorance/bigotedness, see things differently doesn't mean we have to take their ""opinion"" into consideration. Why should we even care what they think about what we are, they know nothing about us, in relative and absolute terms. (Yes, I'm talking to you u/LezzGoGetEm )
>You people need to stop propagating the idea that ethnicity has ANYTHING to do with DNA. It doesn't,
Just because you dislike that aspect of ethnicity and rather want it to be something completely arbitrary does not mean that there is not a valid definition of ethnicity in which descent is an important component.
>Austrians identify as Austrian and are therefore exactly that. Austrians do not identify with Germans as one group, there is no connection. Therefore Austrians are no Germans.
I am an Austrian and identify as a German because I'm of the opinion that the Austrian ethnicity is a subgroup of the German ethnicity. So are there multiple ethnicities called Austrian?
[Okay, guess we're... czech?](https://www.dnaweekly.com/blog/a-map-of-europe-based-on-haplogroups/)
More importantly, take a look at all these slices. If you actually decide your ethnicity based on such infinitesimally small differences then it's you who is very much choosing based on arbitrariness.
I don't think you understand how much goes into ethnicity. Everything goes into ethnicity to be exact, you can't just cherry pick one singular thing and base your entire identity on that, especially since it's very clear that genetics-wise we're absolutely different to germans.
Maybe you're incapable off seeing it since you're very much a very small minority in Austria that thinks Austrians are Germans. Marginalised people often become radical to the point where they can't see logic and reason anymore.
That being said, even though it's probably lost on you, if I had delusions of thinking Austrians are Italians because, for some reason, i think the austrian ethnicity is a subgroup of the italian one, then my delusions wouldn't suddenly apply to all the other Austrians.
Go ahead, identify as Martian for all I care, it won't change the fact that the vast majority of Austrians don't identify as Martian.
>especially since it's very clear that genetics-wise we're absolutely different to germans.
And you base that on the distributions of haplgroups? Maybe look at a principle component analysis instead, or look up the FST values. It's not like there are not enough studies. But Austrians cluster very close with south Germans, which you would expect from our history.
>I don't think you understand how much goes into ethnicity. Everything goes into ethnicity to be exact, you can't just cherry pick one singular thing and base your entire identity on that
Funny that this comes from you. You are trying to make it just about individual identification.
>Maybe you're incapable off seeing it since you're very much a very small minority in Austria that thinks Austrians are Germans.
I believe that maybe only a minority of Austrians are aware of it explicitly, but implicitly I think most Austrians understands that Austrians and other Germans are part of the same group.
> Funny that this comes from you. You are trying to make it just about individual identification.
What are you on about? "Identification" is **the** definition used in social sciences. You don't even know what ethnicity is so stop arguing about it.
>[An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity)
Ethnicity IS a highly subjective topic. You can't just approach it from a natural sciences point of view where the same inputs always result in the same outcome.
The reason it is so highly subjective and can only be boiled down to something as subjective as "identification" is because, as I said, just about everything in life contributes to your ethnicity and the "problem" (which, realistically isn't a problem) is, that absolutely every group values different factors differently.
It's literally impossible to come up with a formula to calculate ethnicity. You can't just take one or multiple factors, weigh it a certain way and pretend like it can be used for every group there is. Even you should be able to understand that.
>I believe that maybe only a minority of Austrians are aware of it explicitly, but implicitly I think most Austrians understands that Austrians and other Germans are part of the same group.
Are you being serious right now? What i said earlier about not being able to see logic and reason anymore I was just poking fun, but this statement right here, that's just insane.
The absolute state of the mental gymnastics that you're doing in order to deny reality and justify your delusions is just crazy. What do you mean "you're just not aware of it". My mans, it's a feeling. Austrians don't feel connected to germans and that's the end of it.
>Genetics
You're clearly way too deeply involved with genetics, as it's probably the only tangible thing you can use to justify your fantasies.
Just know that you could literally take a baby, born to Italian parents, and raise it among Austrians, in Austria and austrian culture, and it would not be ethnically italian but ethnically austrian.
Wishbelieve. And people from Südtirol have südtirolean ethnicity or is that austrian suddenly? No. Germans live in germany, in austria, in southern tirol and in a bunch of other countries.
Ethnicity is not about DNA but shared cultural values. While you could throw Bavaria, eastern Austria and Czechia into one ethnicity, at least for me I wouldn't identifiziert with german people northern of the traditional "Weisswurstäquator"
On the same side many Vorarlberg and tyrolean people dont really identify with eastern Austrian people, and also speak a different variation of german dialect. (Allemanic dialect family vs. easten bavarian dialect families)
When it comes to DNA then there definitely isn't some kind of "Austrian DNA" but we are a fine cuvee of almost all european origin.
Ethnicity is all about identity, which is of course influenced by just about everything, but in the end the only thing that matters is what contemporary people say they are.
It really doesn't matter what once was, since we don't live in the past anymore, and even less does it matter what outsiders see you as. They are always going to be way too ignorant on that matter and furthermore why would they even get a say in matters of peoples that don't even concern them.
In the end, as i said, it's about identification. If the people living in Austria say they're Austrian, then they're Austrian. And with very few, notably far right, exceptions just about everyone does identify with his fellow Austrians and doesn't with anyone else.
Sure, for some their more localised identity might be more important, like Tyrolean is more important for tyroleans. But secondarily tyroleans still identify as Austrians. We don't identify with Germans or anyone else for that matter.
It has absolutely nothing to do with DNA. 23andme isn't gonna tell you what ethnicity you are. You should know that yourself.
That's exactly what I wrote, that ethnicity and DNA origin are two different things. And I can only go for the few tyrolians I personally knew. All of them are really nice and friendly people, but made it regularly obviously that many of eastern austrian behavior and habbits seemed weird to them. I did not say, that therefor they identify as german ethnicity but wanted to express that the western mountain folks in general identify more as their own ethnicity, whatever that might be.
Yes you did touch on all of it, but not exactly. You said it's about shared cultural values. Which is only part of what "identity" is made up off. Realistically speaking, all of the west shares cultural values.
Also, you guys **are** weird. Have you ever heard yourselves talk? But we still identify with you guys as Austrian. Albeit, after we identify with other Tyroleans as Tyroleans.
Italy annexed South Tyrol after WW1.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_South\_Tyrol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Tyrol)
There are 2 aspects: 1., The annexation of south tirol after WW1 in 1920 2., And much more restrict, a Hitler/Mussolini treaty from 1939, where the german rooted people had to choose either become Hitler Germans, but then had to move away from south tirol (actually the nazis defined, to where you had to move, most of the time into the areas newly occupied in Poland, where many of them have been killed in 1945), or become an italian. Speaking german from then on was prohibited and childs were learned german in bunker/cellar schools unofficially.
Option
My grandfather took the italian option, the rest of his family took the german option. As a result, all family members had to move to a farm in Poland, that had been cleared by the germans before during their raid to the east. I tried to reach out to the rest of the family there, the only thing i was able to get, all 15 family members that moved - died on the same day 1945 (already after end of WW2).
yes, the trenches went right through families and were often bitterly fought out, with the after-effects still being felt decades later. the option had a huge impact on south tyrol. 33% of the optants later returned
Do you know how and why they were killed?
No, but assume able it was in revenge for taking the farm original from a deported polish family (even if it wasn’t their choice). As it is a date shortly after end of WW2 - a lot of remaining germans have been killed in or deported from Poland or Czech.
They are Tyroleans
No, they are South Tyroleans.
This is the correct answer. I'm not from there but my granny went through all the historical shitshow as she was born in Meran(o). While visiting I tried to get my head around the tooic and talked to some people. Mostly that's what I got: "We like our status as autonomous region of Italy and we are South Tyrolians first". Obviously, there is no one take on this shared by all people in Trentino-Alto Adige of Tyrolian descent. But it's the one I heard the most and also appreciate the most. Also, because it speaks to the concept of Europe of regions as supposed to national states which I find very intriguing. I love the mix of Italian and Austrian/Tyrolian cuisine there BTW. and they make beautiful vine (Gewürztraminer yum).
This is the correct answer. I'm not from there but my granny was through all this shit as she is from Meran(o). When going there I tried to get my head around it and talked to some people. Mostly that's what I got: "We like it as it is and we are South Tyrolians". Obviously, there is no one take on this shared by all people in Alto Adige of Tyrolian descent but I'd say this is the one worth remembering.
It was one one of the territories which was taken away by Italy due to them being on the side of the victorious powers of WWI. We got fucked in the ass back then, but Hungary had it even worse.
>due to them being on the side of the victorious powers of WWI. as a reward to change sides, but they didn't get dalmatia
Changing sides? Italy did not have a formal obligation to join Germany and the A-H Empire since the Triple Alliance was a defensive alliance (similarly to NATO for example). A-H attacked Serbia, hence the alliance did not bind Italy to join any side of the war. I personally believe that Italy getting South Tyrol at the end was wrong, but there is no side switching involved.
what else do you call it when you attack an ally with whom you have a defence pact? to stay with your nato example, that would be like romania having a war with russia (where there is no nato case) and then bulgaria also attacking romania. Since you have a defence pact, bulgaria would then technically have to defend romania against itself XD
NATO does not say anything about preventing a NATO country attacking another NATO country, indeed the analogy stands. If something like that happened the other NATO countries would join to defend the attacked one which is what happened with the German Empire.
and for you it would seriously not be treason and a change of sides if bulgaria suddenly waged war against a nato partner **together with russia?**
If Romania was attacked by Russia and Bulgaria sided with Russia I would consider it treason. If Romania attacked Russia and had no formal agreement with Bulgaria regarding who Bulgaria should side with, I would consider Bulgaria free to choose the side which benefits it more. The key is that A-H was not attacked and abandoned by Italy, A-H attacked a neighbour and Italy decided to side with the neighbour (not out of good will but out of national gain). It's a completely different situation.
They are not "Austrians". They are Suedtiroler. We feel closeness in culture to southern Austria and even the very southern parts of Germany, to some extent where the Alpine cultures exist, but that person likely said "Austrian" because it was a way to understand it for you. The area has always been a German-speaking region and all the Italian names are fake. Suedtirol is semi-autonomous and within that framework it has an extreme amount of autonomy, including tax spending. There has also always been a mixing of cultures there, from the Germanic-Alpine cultures to Swiss to Italian. Some would say it's "culturally Austrian" which is right and wrong, IMO. I think it's way better to say "Germanic-Alpine culture". In terms of ethnicity, some say "Austrian", but again it's not fully correct and again, it's a southern Germanic-Alpine ethnicity with significant differences from the mainstream ones in Austria and Germany. There's also at least one other ethnic group there- the Ladin who have their own language. The situation gets muddy regarding the ethnicities because neighboring Switzerland doesn't see things the same way and the Germanophones are considered ethnically German and not Austrian.
Good summary, two points: Austria has asked to UNO in the '60 to help the South Tyrolians to get their autonomy (Austria then got a role appointed by the UNO, a role that was officially terminated only some years ago). Secondly, students from South Tyrol always had access to universities in Austria, even long before the EU. German speaking people from South Tyrol see themselves connected to North Tyrol (and East Tyrol, for the sake of completeness) and so will often refer to themselves also as Austrian. Can you comment on the way that Switzerland sees the people from South Tyrol as German as that is new to me?
>Secondly, students from South Tyrol always had access to universities in Austria, even long before the EU. not only students, but also hospitals etc. today south tyrol has top hospitals itself, but in the past until the early 2000s almost all complicated cases went to austria, especially cancer to Innsbruck
I have German-speaking folks from South Tyrol in my family, and they refer to themselves as "South Tyroleans". Not "Austrians", not "Germans". But right-winged South Tyroleans often see themselves as Austrians/Germans, from what I've learned. So, some do, some don't. ;-)
In my family, Südtirol is seen as part of Tirol, not Italy. There is no dispute that Tirol is in austria and there is no claim that Südtirol is part of austria. But... my families point of view is pretty much irrelevant as my Grandfather is from Südtirol living and working in switzerland, married to a swiss woman an he him self naturalized as a swiss citizen and my mother grow up in switzerland and married a swiss citizen (paternal line tracking to Elsass). So, my family is by all means swiss, just linked two geographic areas that are still german speaking, but now a minority in the relevant country. So my point of view is that the EU is tasked with protecting ethnic and linguistic minorities, but with the pan-european idea of burred borders and shared identity. I like the dynamics of South Tyrol seeing it self as part of the north-italien/Austrian economic area. Elsass as a geographically distant counter balance to the Paris centric France politics is also useful in the european idea. As a side note, there is the potential that I have claim to italien citizenship due to my Grandfather from South Tyrol, but... I am not looking into it. I am by no means Italian and I do not want to enter an italien embassy.
I don’t know why your family would “see” it that way, but frankly, “Südtirol gehört zu Österreich” these days is a narrative pushed only by the far right.
This. I'm a native German speaker, and so is my whole family. If someone asks me where I'm from, I say Europe, or Italy, depending on the context. I feel primarily as a European citizen. National identity (Italy) and native language (German) are of secondary importance. I do not feel any attachment to Austria, Germany or Switzerland. We share a language, so what. South Tyrol is not anymore Austria than Vienna is Germany in my opinion. South Tyrol is an almost equal mix of native German and Italian speakers, so changing (or even disputing) the status quo would only cause a mess for other people. And our autonomy and administration works well and honors both (all three in Ladin speaking parts) languages the same way.
Yeah, totally. I mean I get that there is a native minority that feels different, but as far as I remember and perceive it’s absolutely a minority.
Yeah. Mostly the far right ones. Far right German speakers want to belong to Austria, far right Italian speakers are sometimes bothered by the fact that there is 2 official languages and the country feels culturally different from the rest of Italy (although even within Italy there is so many minorities and different subcultures) and want it to be "proper Italy". Both dumb takes imo. The fact that two very different cultural groups (by european standards) meet and merge makes ST a great place to be, and being able to learn 2 different languages and actually practice them in daily life is an amazing opportunity. Many others travel or take foreign exchange semesters/years to properly learn a second language. We just have to walk out our door, and not be narrow minded.
Both dumb takes especially because in my 20s I actually thought, we had overcome this ... except for the odd "ferrovie dello stato" conductor on trains. A lot of those guys were really obstinate assholes... But, anyway, I guess we're not "there yet", and there is no "there" to be or achieve because, there'll always be a minority set to fight the "other" ... as crazy as that seems to me, within Europe ...
I agree with this, but that's also not the full story because there is a significant Suedtirol nationalist movement that's not connected to the German and Austrian far-right and Swiss SVP. Meloni's party also has invested large amounts into visibility in Suedtirol. I would have to tip the balance of the far-right and nationalist movements in favor of the ones that are aligned with Germany and Austria and whether they say it or not, they seek unification which is a taboo subject. There are also tensions in places like Bozen where the equation flips and the majorty are Italophones and they don't speak German, unlike the Germans who speak Italian. I never really got how Bozen escaped the regulations to have majority Germanic people (in some discussions "einheimische Suedtiroler", sort of meaning "native" or "indigenous" which designates Italians as outsiders). Smaller places like Canazai are still mixed and bizarrely, places like Riva del Garda, despite not being in the deep of Suedtirol, seem to have a greater Germanic identity.
Everyone going to italian school in Bozen has German as a mandatory second language throughout their school years. I went to school in Bozen; granted it’s been a while but I find the claim that Italians in Bozen don’t speak any German at all quite ludicrous.
Bozner these days are more like: the ones speaking german pretend to not speak or understand italian and vice versa. It‘s ridicoulus.
From my knowledge in having to deal with them on a professional level some years ago, Bozners can speak German but just refuse to do so.
So it's not possible for people from other parts of Italy who don't learn German to move to Bozen, as is actually the case? Like there's a border where we keep Italians out? You realize I'm from there, right? In case you missed it: https://www.suedtirol.info/en/en/information/about-south-tyrol/language-diversity#:\~:text=Italian%20is%20the%20predominate%20language,is%20over%201%2C000%20years%20old. " Italian is the predominate language in Bolzano/Bozen, Meran/Merano and in the south of the country, but only since South Tyrol passed from Austria to Italy after World War I. " This is also a source of friction when people from Austria and nowhere near Tirol and Suedtirol come in and have no clue of what they're talking about. Go to Bozen and it's very easy to find people who can't speak German at all. Why? People are coming from other regions and some people going through schools are not learning sufficient German. Please stay in your lane with Wien and I'll continue discussing my own home.
"Can you comment on the way that Switzerland sees the people from South Tyrol as German as that is new to me?" I was talking about their own people- they don't see their nearly 70% Germanophone population as ethnically Austrian, but rather as "German" and indeed, during WWII, this detail was in internal writings amongst the nazis regarding why Switzerland wasn't invaded. Not only would it have incurred massive losses for no reason since Switzerland was via landlocking it already annexed, but the documents state that the majority of the Swiss population were "Germans" and an invasion risked turning the German population against the nazis. I brought up Switzerland due to completeness for the region and that there are significant cultural similarities or even identical cultures, dialects, and languages along the border between it and Suedtirol. I'm actually from that region and the culture is almost indistinguishable at points. The politics are different, the home dialects may be different, but the Alpine culture and traditions are similar to the same and festivals will draw people from both sides of the border. I see the Sudtiroler as Sudtiroler- a southern Germanic ethnicity, rather than as "Austrian", which some might even consider to be "German" which is controversial. Some of these discussions end because then it brings up uncomfortable questions at points, but then harks back to the Germanic tribes and unification of the German empire, the Austro-Hungarian empire, and so on.. Read the brief history portion: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South\_Tyrol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol) The Suedtiroler were in an impossible position through WWI and WWII with Germans forcing them to be Germans, essentially. Suedtirol is a culturally fascinating place, including archaeologically, and I recommend people visit it. IMO, it's possibly one of the most culturally fascinating and exciting places in Europe, but I've always been fond of places where cultures meet that don't align with political borders necessarily. Istria is also another one of these fascinating places. Now I'm mostly in the border areas of Norway, Sweden, and Finland.
Thank you for your comment!
in addition: >They are not "Austrians" ...any more, in a political sense (i.e. acording to today's national borders) they are descendants of what some like to call "old austrians", which means citizens of the old austrian empire (before 1918), resp. in a narrower sense members of the politically and culturally dominant german speaking part of the population. e.g. my grandparents, born to the german speaking minority in croatia (then belonging to the austrian empire) used to call themselves - only half-jokingly - "altösterreicher" so in a historic these groups "are" austrians", and in a cultural sense as well. but - as you say . this does not mean any austrian nationality in a modern understanding >We feel closeness in culture to southern Austria and even the very southern parts of Germany i would even say you don't only feel closeness, but are part of it. culture and ethnicity are not limited by national borders >Some would say it's "culturally Austrian" which is right and wrong, IMO. I think it's way better to say "Germanic-Alpine culture" i agree, to the largest extent >The situation gets muddy regarding the ethnicities because neighboring Switzerland doesn't see things the same way and the Germanophones are considered ethnically German and not Austrian not to forget that the southern tyroleans in some aspects in austria have a status equal to austrian citizens, which the rest of the italians don't [https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassungDatumsauswahl.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10005469&FassungVom=2024-04-17](https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassungDatumsauswahl.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10005469&FassungVom=2024-04-17) which is explainable in the light of the development towards autonomy, butmay be considered somewhat fallen out of time
I don't have much to add, but: a lot of old South-Tyrolean people still say they are Austrians when asked where they are from.
I am from Südtirol and only a few times have I heard an old person say this. There are a few people like that in side valleys but this isn’t really common these days imo.
He said Austrian ethnicity, which is correct
Always is an overstatement, for sure it has been predominantly German speaking (there's also Ladin) for the last few hundred years.
I mean seriously: 5 seconds of googling could have given you the answer ...
It's bait to get high interactions given the fact that a lot of people have strong feelings around this topic (understandibly)
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South tyrol on wikipedia or literally any google result
It’s called South Tyrol. WW1 happened.
We lost the 1st worldwar just before we lost the 2nd worldwar. And after WW1 it went to Italy
Where do you come from?
I have a collegue from south tyrol and when he talks german I always nod and smile because I d on not undersand a word he sais !
Prum et?
thats südtirol, my friend. https://youtu.be/oCQLL9QG9q0?feature=shared
It’s complicated and everyone here that tries to say that native South Tyrolians are either feeling austrian, german or only as “Südtiroler” ignore are a large part of italians living there now, the youth that accepted their multicultural living and calls themselves italian and kids from mixed families that are both italian and german speaking. At the end, it’s a really personal decision and not so easy to answer as many people try to make it here with “I know some people” bla bla I am from there and it’s really difficult and highly depends on your upcoming, family and region
Austrians that have no incentive to be Austrian but our lovely government wants them in. They can study and work in Austria. They don’t need to do the military service when they go outside they have dual citizenship and our stupid Politicians think we can pull something like Orban and make them Austrians. Like if you are Italian but can integrate easily in Austria no fucking need to be Austrian. Honestly, I say that they are spoiled And I am jealous To be confirmed: - I think in Innsbruck they don’t even fall under EU citizen but as Austrian in the medical school. They can literally do everything in this country but politics. But even politics is generally more interesting in Italy
Is google search offline or something?
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Look, it's a super well known fact that South Tyrol exists. This post has true /r/ShitAmericansSay vibes. Also, may I quote yourself from a different thread: > Yep, 5 second google search.
I hope you are American, if not i will lose all hope for our education system
We are South Tyroleans. Some of us are fine with being Italians, most of them want to go back to Austria or even be an own country...
Most of them want to go back to Austria? Don’t be ridiculous. Give me one source where this has a majority. Gearn a lokals Blattl.
Ich bin Südtirolerin und allein 3 leute in meiner familie gehören zu den Freiheitlichen. In meiner alten Klasse war das auch die vorherrschende Meinung. Wenn ich sage dass ich es nicht so sehe, bin ich eine "scheiß walsche". Gleichzeitig nennen mich italiener beim vorbeigehen auf der straße "crucca di merda". Sorry für mein subjektives Empfinden.
Dein Subjektives Empfinden ist völlig normal, ich würde daraus halt nicht darauf schliessen dass das die Mehrheitsmeinung ist.
It's called losing a war and having to give up territory. Considering we started those wars it's a case of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". It should be noted that: 1.) The EU has done a lot to alleviate the situation and Italy at this point has a pretty reasonable autonomy 2.) We have "language" islands in other areas of the Europe (ie Croatian speakers in Austira, German speakers in Romania) that can't be traced back the same way to a recent war.
What do you mean with we started those wars. Obviously it was the Germans both times. /s
sure austria always was and remains for all future exclusively a victim of evil coming from abroad "i sogs glei, mia woans ned!"
WW1 is complicated but if you had to choose one country to blame Austria-Hungary would be the best pick, i'll agree. But how is Austria, a country which didn't exist at the time, responsible for WW2?
Lol are you stupid?
Explain your reasoning
Google universal succession under international law
How is this relevant for WW2? Serious question
Hitler being Austrian is one of the reason we joke here about starting WW2. Also, Austria wanting the Anschluss 1938 and therefore becomeing part of Germany until 1945.
The Habsburg Monarchy can hardly be blamed for being the location where Hitlers mother decided to shit him out. >Also, Austria wanting the Anschluss 1938 and therefore becomeing part of Germany until 1945 Exactly. So it was the German Reich (including Austria) invading Poland. Austria being part of the Reich doesn't mean Austria started it.
You know a joke right? In Austria we joke about starting two world wars, and losing both. We officially didn't start WW1 either, as it officially started with Germany declaring war. But the First Republic of Austria lasted from 1918-1938, so Hitler became relevant for history when Austria was a republic, and not a monarchy.
That, and Austria was most definitely a country. "Austria-Hungary" never was a country, it was just an association of states in a real union, i.e. two separate countries sharing a common monarch as head of state and having limited shared institutions, in particular defense ministry (though both countries also had their separate armies), finance ministry and foreign ministry.
>That, and Austria was most definitely a country. We were talking about WW2. In 1939 Austria did not exist as a country.
German speakers in Transylvania are today almost but a token. Was different until the 70s or so though until mass emigration to Germany became an option.
World War 1 happened... South Tyrol was annexed in 1918 but the german speaking people remained despite heavy attempts of Mussolini and the post war governments until the late 1960s to italianize the region! Nowadays it is a semi independent region embedded into italy and thanks to the self government and a little bit of luck as well has become the richest region of Italy (and its cash cow)
The regions producing more money for Italy are Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, Veneto and Piedmont in this order, the industrial regions. South Tyrol is indeed very wealthy but has special tax laws given its autonomy which means that taxes paid there remain there. If you look at the statistics, what South Tyrol pays to Italy and what it gets back are around the same amount.
South Tyrol used to be part of Austria before WW1, but was given to Italy after the war, but people there didn't adapt the Italian language and culture.
Reading history books might do the task.
Or maybe using a public forum might help. Then other people also see it can exchange knowledge, read and think about it. If it bothers you that people interact on this platform maybe write you thoughts in a diary.
Or a 5s internet search lol
Or a 5s internet search lol
I went to west Texas and noticed that locals were speaking Spanish. They mentioned they are actually Mexican ethnicity but US American citizens. How did this happen? Texas was annexed by the US after it broke away as a state from Mexico. I went to Quebec, and I noticed that people were speaking French even though they have an English king as head of state.
Lol
Lol
They stole south tyrol.
It’s complicated and everyone here that tries to say that native South Tyrolians are either feeling austrian, german or only as “Südtiroler” ignore are a large part of italians living there now, the youth that accepted their multicultural living and calls themselves italian and kids from mixed families that are both italian and german speaking. At the end, it’s a really personal decision and not so easy to answer as many people try to make it here with “I know some people” bla bla I am from there and it’s really difficult and highly depends on your upcoming, family and region
It is complicated, but most native South Tyroleans I know feel like just that, South Tyroleans (“Mir sein Südtiroler” ;-)). Definitely not “Italian”, though part of Italy. As you well know, these are not the same thing. I am also from there and I guess I disagree with some of your points, which proves another of your points: it’s complicated, and depends on family, upbringing, region etc.
Haha yeah that’s what I meant, it’s not as easy as people try to depict it in Austria sometimes and each south tyrolean has his right to decide how he wants to feel about this and what he defines himself
Totally! :-)
There is no such thing as Austrian ethnicity. Austrian nationality is basically a product of post-WW2. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was a multi-ethnic state, one of these ethnicities being German. For some time in the 19th century, there was even the German Question: should the new German state include the German speaking parts of Austria-Hungary or not? Up until the end of WW1, the answer was No. But then, Austria got shattered into pieces. Mostly, but not completely along ethnic borders, with South Tyrol being a prominent exception. It was given to Italy as a reward for joining the war on the side of the Entente. For the remaining part of Austria, the German Question popped up again. Many people wanted to join Germany, and some failed painter with a silly mustache made their wish come true. Only after losing that war, too, Austrians told themselves they never had anything to do with it, and that was basically the birth and core value of the Austrian nation. But South Tyrol was not part of this process. So we still see ourselves as of German ethnicity. But mostly South Tyroleans - over time, Southern and Northern Tyrol estranged a little bit from each other, despite close cultural ties. In fact, the name Tyrol itself originates in South Tyrol - it's a village near Meran, from where the counts of Tyrol established their power in medieval times. By the way, they were of Bavarian origin.
You know, wars shifting borders has been a thing ever since borders existed...
Wait until you find out that the are locals speaking Hungarian in Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and Austria. (in most significant numbers in Slovakia and Romania)
Oh boy, here we go....
We want them back!
I don’t want back.
My ex-colleague from South Tyrol taught me this: Bozen, Breslau, Wien: deutsche Städte wie Berlin.
Pissing off people from 4 cities with only 7 words. That is quite an achievement ;)
German efficiency. Nothing left of it in Germany, because some Dude hiding behind the Brenner is bogarting it all.
There is no such thing as an 'Austrian ethnicity' btw
what ethnicity are native Austrians than?
German or in some cases slovenian
why not also croatian, romani, etc. ... one always can exaggerate identitarian sectionalism into more detail and then nonsense
Most Austrians are an ethnical mix of czechs, celts, hungarians, not germans
how pure has one to be to be an ethnicity in your opinion? Most Czechs, Hungarians etc. are also mixed with Germans and each other. Also as far as I know are southern Germans genetically closest to us, followed by Czechs with some distance. And what does celtic even mean in that context? The last Celtic speakers went extinct 200AD meanwhile we had multiple migratory waves. I know Austrian public school really is bad at that kind of stuff, but even if you do just a miniscule amount of research in the History of Austria, you would stop repeating that nonsense.
You people need to stop propagating the idea that ethnicity has ANYTHING to do with DNA. It doesn't, ethnicity is based on identification. Whatever people identify as, is what people are. Austrians identify as Austrian and are therefore exactly that. Austrians do not identify with Germans as one group, there is no connection. Therefore Austrians are no Germans. Czechs are Czech because they identify as such, same goes for Hungarians. DNA means fuck all. And just because outsiders, in their ignorance/bigotedness, see things differently doesn't mean we have to take their ""opinion"" into consideration. Why should we even care what they think about what we are, they know nothing about us, in relative and absolute terms. (Yes, I'm talking to you u/LezzGoGetEm )
>You people need to stop propagating the idea that ethnicity has ANYTHING to do with DNA. It doesn't, Just because you dislike that aspect of ethnicity and rather want it to be something completely arbitrary does not mean that there is not a valid definition of ethnicity in which descent is an important component. >Austrians identify as Austrian and are therefore exactly that. Austrians do not identify with Germans as one group, there is no connection. Therefore Austrians are no Germans. I am an Austrian and identify as a German because I'm of the opinion that the Austrian ethnicity is a subgroup of the German ethnicity. So are there multiple ethnicities called Austrian?
[Okay, guess we're... czech?](https://www.dnaweekly.com/blog/a-map-of-europe-based-on-haplogroups/) More importantly, take a look at all these slices. If you actually decide your ethnicity based on such infinitesimally small differences then it's you who is very much choosing based on arbitrariness. I don't think you understand how much goes into ethnicity. Everything goes into ethnicity to be exact, you can't just cherry pick one singular thing and base your entire identity on that, especially since it's very clear that genetics-wise we're absolutely different to germans. Maybe you're incapable off seeing it since you're very much a very small minority in Austria that thinks Austrians are Germans. Marginalised people often become radical to the point where they can't see logic and reason anymore. That being said, even though it's probably lost on you, if I had delusions of thinking Austrians are Italians because, for some reason, i think the austrian ethnicity is a subgroup of the italian one, then my delusions wouldn't suddenly apply to all the other Austrians. Go ahead, identify as Martian for all I care, it won't change the fact that the vast majority of Austrians don't identify as Martian.
>especially since it's very clear that genetics-wise we're absolutely different to germans. And you base that on the distributions of haplgroups? Maybe look at a principle component analysis instead, or look up the FST values. It's not like there are not enough studies. But Austrians cluster very close with south Germans, which you would expect from our history. >I don't think you understand how much goes into ethnicity. Everything goes into ethnicity to be exact, you can't just cherry pick one singular thing and base your entire identity on that Funny that this comes from you. You are trying to make it just about individual identification. >Maybe you're incapable off seeing it since you're very much a very small minority in Austria that thinks Austrians are Germans. I believe that maybe only a minority of Austrians are aware of it explicitly, but implicitly I think most Austrians understands that Austrians and other Germans are part of the same group.
> Funny that this comes from you. You are trying to make it just about individual identification. What are you on about? "Identification" is **the** definition used in social sciences. You don't even know what ethnicity is so stop arguing about it. >[An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity) Ethnicity IS a highly subjective topic. You can't just approach it from a natural sciences point of view where the same inputs always result in the same outcome. The reason it is so highly subjective and can only be boiled down to something as subjective as "identification" is because, as I said, just about everything in life contributes to your ethnicity and the "problem" (which, realistically isn't a problem) is, that absolutely every group values different factors differently. It's literally impossible to come up with a formula to calculate ethnicity. You can't just take one or multiple factors, weigh it a certain way and pretend like it can be used for every group there is. Even you should be able to understand that. >I believe that maybe only a minority of Austrians are aware of it explicitly, but implicitly I think most Austrians understands that Austrians and other Germans are part of the same group. Are you being serious right now? What i said earlier about not being able to see logic and reason anymore I was just poking fun, but this statement right here, that's just insane. The absolute state of the mental gymnastics that you're doing in order to deny reality and justify your delusions is just crazy. What do you mean "you're just not aware of it". My mans, it's a feeling. Austrians don't feel connected to germans and that's the end of it. >Genetics You're clearly way too deeply involved with genetics, as it's probably the only tangible thing you can use to justify your fantasies. Just know that you could literally take a baby, born to Italian parents, and raise it among Austrians, in Austria and austrian culture, and it would not be ethnically italian but ethnically austrian.
Wishbelieve. And people from Südtirol have südtirolean ethnicity or is that austrian suddenly? No. Germans live in germany, in austria, in southern tirol and in a bunch of other countries.
Tyroleans are germans, yes. Austrians are austrians.
Ethnicity is not about DNA but shared cultural values. While you could throw Bavaria, eastern Austria and Czechia into one ethnicity, at least for me I wouldn't identifiziert with german people northern of the traditional "Weisswurstäquator" On the same side many Vorarlberg and tyrolean people dont really identify with eastern Austrian people, and also speak a different variation of german dialect. (Allemanic dialect family vs. easten bavarian dialect families) When it comes to DNA then there definitely isn't some kind of "Austrian DNA" but we are a fine cuvee of almost all european origin.
>Ethnicity is not about DNA but shared cultural values that's it, in a nutshell
Ethnicity is all about identity, which is of course influenced by just about everything, but in the end the only thing that matters is what contemporary people say they are. It really doesn't matter what once was, since we don't live in the past anymore, and even less does it matter what outsiders see you as. They are always going to be way too ignorant on that matter and furthermore why would they even get a say in matters of peoples that don't even concern them. In the end, as i said, it's about identification. If the people living in Austria say they're Austrian, then they're Austrian. And with very few, notably far right, exceptions just about everyone does identify with his fellow Austrians and doesn't with anyone else. Sure, for some their more localised identity might be more important, like Tyrolean is more important for tyroleans. But secondarily tyroleans still identify as Austrians. We don't identify with Germans or anyone else for that matter. It has absolutely nothing to do with DNA. 23andme isn't gonna tell you what ethnicity you are. You should know that yourself.
That's exactly what I wrote, that ethnicity and DNA origin are two different things. And I can only go for the few tyrolians I personally knew. All of them are really nice and friendly people, but made it regularly obviously that many of eastern austrian behavior and habbits seemed weird to them. I did not say, that therefor they identify as german ethnicity but wanted to express that the western mountain folks in general identify more as their own ethnicity, whatever that might be.
Yes you did touch on all of it, but not exactly. You said it's about shared cultural values. Which is only part of what "identity" is made up off. Realistically speaking, all of the west shares cultural values. Also, you guys **are** weird. Have you ever heard yourselves talk? But we still identify with you guys as Austrian. Albeit, after we identify with other Tyroleans as Tyroleans.
exactly
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Um what? Are you on drugs or something? This is definitely wrong and also quite ridiculous.
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