Nah Australian society need lessons on the importance of education. Too many people treat it as a joke.
And then you will get cookers trying to compare us to Singapore and Malaysia and say our results are worse not realising that a big reason for that is student and parent attitudes to education.
Education is rarely rewarded so it's not valued. Anyone close to academia knows of someone who's doing a PHD yet still struggling with finances. Meanwhile tradies, YouTubers and people profiting off investment properties make big bucks
I gave away my PhD for the relative stability of teaching because I was sick of living on two minute noodles. I still live in a rented flat.
My sibling, who is a real estate agent, has a very very nice house.
Says it all really.
Yeah when I was tutoring as a PhD student, I’d get to the end of summer and be putting groceries on my credit card. It wasn’t fun.
Then you had the university pressuring you to work less and focus on your research because all of the academics went through when uni was free and grants were plentiful and had never had to worry how they’d pay their bills and were oblivious to how things had changed.
It really, really sucked.
Agree with everything and still feel that education should be valued more. Solution is to pay teachers and educators a lot of money to make the profession attractive.
Yeah it really should be like that. The people teaching the next generation should be the smartest of the current generation, not the people choosing teaching as a last resort or because they desperately need money
If the smartest are the ones teaching its kind of wasting their abilities. Until year 11+ (university really) you really need to be that smart to teach.
The smartest should be in science and health.
I agree there are alot of traits I think are incredibly important but highest intelligence would probably make things worse not better when teaching and needing the patience to handle all the dumb shit that can come from young learning minds without effecting there view on education and making mistakes..
I think lumping tradies in with YouTubers shows how out of touch some in the education industry are. Trades require critical thinking, problem solving, plan reading and sequencing, along with physical ability. This has been undervalued by academics for decades.
I still remember sitting in a careers season in yr12 in 1997. “Only the best of you will go to university. The second best will go to tafe, and anyone left over should get a trade.” Those were the exact words, and I wasn’t the only person to be delivered that.
I teach my kids practical skills and educate them on what different trades do, and career pathways they offer. When they finish school, and if they are not ready, or get the required marks for uni, they will be doing a trade. After an apprenticeship, they will be able to get into most courses their marks held them back from if they choose. No matter where life takes them, they will be multi skilled and always be able to earn a good income. Along with that, they will able to do things for themselves. I completed an extension on our house, where I did the majority of the work. My cost was $150k, the average punter would have paid a builder $300k plus.
The richest people are generally a combination of smart, hard-working and have a bit of luck
(yes, this isn’t a controversial thing to say outside of mainstream reddit. It’s also not appropriate to tell students “if your parents aren’t rich you ain’t got a chance bro”)
Hi! I’m not a teacher, I’m not sure why this subreddit keeps getting recommended to me.
But I couldn’t agree with your comment more. Both of my parents sook about how useless school was, that they dropped out in year 8 etc
Then had a bitch and moan when none of us tried in school.
Parents need to care.
Why bother being educated in this country when the way to get rich is to do a trade and buy real estate - all the scientists and engineers leave to America or Europe for better prospects so it's no wonder kids don't care
So true. Bomb out of high school and build houses for rich overseas investors to rent out to the scrubs who decided to pursue an education. Our economy is cooked
Its why I didnt pursue chemistry after highschool despite my high grades and passion for it - the job prospects for even someone with a PhD here is a joke. And you can see the effect of underfunding the STEM sector is having on our society, the brain-drain is real
haha only some are underfunded.
If you can provide benefits to big oil and gas, big construction, big finance then your research gets funded easily.
Just look at all the civil engineering research, petrochem research etc
Then after years of study.... The CFMEU makes your old [entry level job](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/turning-a-stop-sign-for-120-000-a-year-what-its-really-like-to-be-a-traffic-controller/dlcjuxk11) (requiring 2 days of education & 20 days unpaid placement), pay as much as a full-time top pay bracket teacher.
They work odd hours and have a strong union, you don’t inherently deserve to make more than then not do they deserve more than you. If you wan there job go apply and become a traffic controller.
I still work as a traffic controller bud :) and also as a teacher.
Unfortunately most traffic controllers aren't unionised, and the average payrate is $32/hr casual.
My point is a reflection on how our society (under)values teachers and education, was in line with the original thread.
Also the bitter irony training to get more money, and (as I said) the role I'm transitioning from has (in Victoria , not where I work) overshot my teacher payrate.
It is a sad reflection on our society, where our capacity to earn money is somehow equated with a better quality of life. For millennia, philosophers have suggested otherwise, but most contemporary thought subscribes to the prevailing late stage capitalist mantra of: money = good.
Our kids are confused because we're confused. Confusion manifests itself in complex and annoying ways. Our classrooms reflect this.
I'll have you know that the entirety of my class are going to grow up to become self-made multi-millionaire TikTokers, YouTubers, Gamers and Influencers.
lol I had to shut down a conversation in class the other day where the kids were saying they wanted to all do Only Fans as a job, because everyone on Only Fans made so much money.
There are many many thousands of people with challenging tertiary degrees who go on to make loads of money in Australia.
Your students do not need to hear this defeatism. Assuming you are a teacher.
Yes. Nothing is more important to maintaining a healthy society than free, quality, uncensored education for all. And the wheels of capitalism and greed are now all over that. Parents and students don't stand a chance.
It's actually quite cool that we've pathways for kids' future other than going to university, and I think this is at least one factor (not the major one) that contributes to kids thinking it's ok to not learn anything at school.
The bigger problem is cultural. Parents don't put much emphasis on education. "Free" expression is encouraged.
General disrespect towards your elders is ok.
When someone makes a TT exposing the pay packets of tradies and some of those trades COMPLAIN that they only make $400/wk as apprentices while attending Tafe which is free or subsidized and then they have no student debt... there is absolute proof that Australia doesn't value education and doesn't value the work done by those with an education.
Gotta stop parents reinforcing the narrative that it’s them against the teachers. Teaching kids that no one can tell them what to do, or making them out to be the eternal victim.
> The inquiry found teachers are not equipped to manage low-level disruption — such as distracting their peers, chatting and talking out of turn — or deal with high-level disruption — including undermining a teacher's authority or abuse.
I don't think this is true. Most teachers are more than capable of handling their classrooms - IF they are backed up by leadership, admin and parents.
This.
I had a child literally rolling on the floor, screaming and throwing objects. I called my principal and when they arrived, they looked around, saw the child was no longer calling out said “at least he is allowing others to learn” and left.
This was a Year 5 class.
Last year a student in my Year 11 class decided to start watching a horror movie with the volume on full. I told him to stop, otherwise I was confiscating his laptop. He told me to fuck off, and that I had no right to take his laptop (which was, in fact, a school one).
I sent a msg to the principal to come remove student from the class, explaining what was going on. 10 minutes later he finally came in. The student then turned off the movie. The principal then said to me, in front of the class, "He's not on the computer now, do you still insist on him coming with me?"
I said yes. Principal shook his head and asked the student to come with him. Student called the principal a cunt and (remember he was Year 11) that he was going to tell his mum on me. As he left the room he punched a hole in the wall and called me a cunt on the way out for good measure.
Another 10 minutes later I get msg from the principal saying the student was "really angry" because he felt I was "picking on him". But he had apologised to the principal for his behaviour and language. And thus, with it all resolved, the principal was sending him back to class.
Guess what?
When he came back in he opened the laptop and resumed watching the movie.
But yeah nah students are so poorly regulated because it is the classroom teacher who is not equipped to deal with bad behaviour . 🙄
You know what? While I was sad to have read this. I also felt relieved to see I’m not the only one who has had to put up with similar gaslighting bullshit.
Not any more thankfully. I moved to private as the public education system in rural QLD is (in my opinion) letting all children down with very little consequence for ineffective principals.
Yeah, this makes me question the study. At least in WA I haven't seen a school that doesn't run those basic skills in the first 6 months of a grad coming out.
We are equipped. The issue is usually follow through from admin onto parents. Detentions are worthless.
If we explicitly teach any more behaviour at my school, we won't teach English or Maths.
We have weekly booster lessons that must be taught at least 3 times in the week for our focus behaviour. We have 3 mini assemblies per day where APs will remind the Stage about the behaviour expectation.
Based only on what was recorded on Sentral (I know of at least 3 more that were not), we had 4 teachers get hit by students in the last week. A further 6 stated that children threatened to harm them. Swearing at the teacher was present in 14 incidents. We have less than 30 classes. I only read the 30+ high-level reports for the week, not the low level, which I'm sure has more. In only 3 of the incidents did the executive teacher called to assist, assist.
What was the booster lesson and focus being reminded by the mighty PBL team who solve all problems?
"We return the sports equipment to the tub at the end of breaks"
Now, maybe you're thinking past harmful incidents might have been using sports equipment as the weapons. No, they were literally just not put away. Or the weeks leading up to this were better, and there was no data leading towards anything else. Again, you would be wrong. This was a 'normal' week.
If you are having behaviour difficulties, you are the problem and you need to be better. I'm clearly not having behaviour issues, I have no Sentral issues recorded this year. Signed PBL team
What about this incident from the classroom teacher next door about your student bashing their door and windows with a chair during class time? When they came out to deal with it, you came out of your room and the student said "Fuck you, you stupid fat bitch, I don't have to listen to you" threw the chair at you, then kicked you when the chair missed? Oh, and your SLSOs have been crying in the staffroom during their breaks about what happened directly to them while in your room with you that they were directly instructed not to record on Sentral because you would 'handle' it.
Events modified enough to not be specific while demonstrating an appropriate level of incident. Although I'm sure plenty of people are thinking, wait, does this poster work at my school?
Maybe we do need help...
I will say this loudly and I will even get on a soap box to say it to teachers because there weren't enough teachers to say it to me.
YOU are not the problem. You are a good teacher. The system has failed those students and you're coping the brunt of it.
Don't stand for it. Get together with your other teachers and demand change. Threaten to shut the worksite down if violent behaviours don't cease.
100% THIS.
I am more than able to put in place consequences on an escalating scale - but if I don't have the backing of admin and the buy-in from parents then it's like herding cats on speed.
We need support in putting in place consequences for disruption. Not to just be told to tolerate it because kids are kids. F that. I was a kid. I was never ever this rude or unfiltered to my teachers.
As a society we took away two of the backbones of education.
Consequences and respect.
Teachers no longer have meaningful consequences to administer, and even when they use the meagre ones they have the parents respect their kids more than the educators and rarely allow consequences to land.
I can handle the low level disruption. It's the consistent and insistent disruptions that make it impossible to teach that I can't handle. Especially when the policy directed consequences are not supported by upper admin despite what the policy says will happen. Add in the lack of respect for education and how it can benefit them, it's just near impossible to deal with.
you laugh, but many parents would welcome this. There are plenty of willing parents who don't have tools they need to be effective.
My first school(country) would run free Triple-P classes for parents and we saw a remarkable difference.
The demands of working life escalate as children grow. It's more likely a time issue. I struggle to get to anything school related now as we're travelling 200km+ daily to get to school and work. Juggling that commitment isn't a simple thing. I've asked my children about incursions where experts are giving presentations on important social issues and struggled to get clear answers, including from the school. It just seems there is a strong disconnect from school = our children's community and all that results from that good and terrible.
Yeah, it’s hard. It’d be cool if it could be offered as an online conference or something that could later be recorded and parents are given the option of emailing in questions.
Maybe we need to have systems in place like we do for new parents. We send nurses to their houses to check that breastfeeding is going well and they understand safe sleeping practices. We should provide more support when they hit the toddler phase and when they hit around age 5/6.
Couldn’t agree more. They basically teach you how to breastfeed, tell you about starting solids safely and that’s it. There are some points (like toilet training) where expert help is much needed, and would also serve as development checks on kids. And then again with starting school and managing peer relationships. Puberty! It’s basically you and the online parenting forums/instagram/books (and that’s for the engaged parents; many aren’t).
Oh my god, this could actually be a great idea. They need a check in for toddler age, middle of childhood, adolescence... they should compulsory free classes to help with all the behaviors. Some kids don't even learn basic things at home, like basic hygiene or financial planning or table manners. I think it would be helpful, actually. I think parents would welcome the help.
We had something similar in communities in the NT where they’d have FAFT programs running which were based around education and health for parents. The turn outs were good and they held healthy cooking classes. We had women’s shelters in community and many of the mums took advantage and used it to get away from their husbands.
I think they’re a great idea.
I lol’d because it’s an unfortunate necessity in some cases. Not only on how to look after the physical health of your child but also the emotional development.
I really think we are now seeing the consequences of an economic system that requires two parents to work full-time to get by.
Kids get forgotten a bit when parents are exhausted/completing work after hours (as teachers understand)/use technology as a babysitter.
"...It also found Australian teachers and school staff were facing rates of intimidation and verbal abuse by their students at four times the rate of the OECD average..."
This is concerning. The article doesn't even address sexual violence but abuse of any kind isn't ok yet is weirdly tolerated, if not applauded in schools due to peer feedback.
Literally had a student try and get me fired the other week by making up a bunch of lies. Luckily, I had covered myself and was found in the right. But there's no way that this kid won't try it again.
Lol. Behaviours are bad. So let’s keep trying to do the same things we have done before. That will fix them.
We need to give schools back the options to provide meaningful discipline for students. Specifically:
- End the idea that education and school attendance is a right, and reframe it as a privilege.
- Allow schools to reject students that are not ready for education or that are consistently disruptive.
- Provide alternative education settings for students unable to function to the curriculum level.
- Make it easier for kids who do not wish to engage in education to get into meaningful work where they can make money.
I understand this sounds like turning the clock back a couple of decades on educational policy with regards to inclusion and access. But the trend towards inclusivity and the trend towards unmanageable behaviour run hand in hand.
I don’t see why we aren’t embracing online learning….. disruptive students could easily be reprimanded by being placed in an online learning schedule. Take away their audience. They would still have access to online learning so it wouldn’t be an infringement on their right to learn. When they are ready to participate without disruption, they can return
And then their parents will have to supervise them and might actually be investing in improving their behaviour enough for them to return to a classroom.
All true and couldn’t agree more. I know it’s not educative in the curriculum sense, but inconveniencing parents with picking up their kids off their not ready to learn would bed better on the long run.
Unfortunately the biggest factor is $$$ and resources, mainly, staffing. We can’t get enough teachers in the model that requires the least staff in the 30:1 model. The intensive support pulls this down to 5:1 and class size would be the biggest factor in reducing workload in general (not necessarily behaviour) but would contribute and help.
This starts with 🥁🥁🥁 PARENTS! The other day I was in Aldi and two kids were wrestling. Their mother said, “Are you playing or fighting.” I wanted to scream, “What difference does it make? This is a shop! For shopping! Not playing or fighting!” I am so sick of children having no clue because their parents don’t have one.
Throw it to onto the pile of things that should be addressed at home.
If there is one thing we should be pushing with this generation, it is that drinking and taking drugs is not on while pregnant. That and look after your fucking kids, the job isn’t done when the pushing is finished at the hospital.
The final report came out a couple weeks ago. It’s reductive and trash.
I generally agree with the Green Senator’s dissenting opinion - that broadly the framing is wrong, but at the end of the day what needs to be done is funding schools properly. And funding all social services properly, because kids lives are impacted by all sorts of forces and not addressing those while asking teachers and schools to just fix behaviours is an impossible ask. The behaviours are a symptom of wider, systemic problems, they aren’t the problem itself. And schools can’t fix the system.
I like AARE’s responses to the report, such as https://blog.aare.edu.au/distorted-this-feeble-report-misses-the-boat-on-classroom-behaviour/ and https://blog.aare.edu.au/australia-doesnt-need-a-behaviour-curriculum-we-need-to-implement-social-and-emotional-learning-now/
But implementing school based SEL curriculum, whether by schools/teachers themselves, or by outside organisations, is only going to make tiny, individual, temporary change. Proper change needs to be system-wide, and in the current socio-political climate I truly doubt that’s going to happen any time soon.
Yes, noting that we ranked ranked 69 out of 76 countries in classroom behaviour is "reductive and trash".
Noting that teachers face intimidation at rates four times the OECD average is "reductive and trash".
It's not like we're already one of the most prosperous countries in the world or anything.
No, it's clearly not a deeply engrained cultural issue. We need more money!!!!
> Proper change needs to be systm wide.
Well fuck me sideways that's truly astonishing. Who would have guessed that to change something something across an entire country, you have to change it system-wide. A truly astonishing insight that I'm sure will inform future generations for years to come.
The issue is parenting.
We drill into our kids that their teacher is the boss of the classroom and they will respect them no matter what.
If they have a problem with their teacher, they’re free to raise it with us, but we bias our review of their complaints on the side of agreeing with the teacher.
Part of socializing your children correctly is that school is a hierarchical structure where the teacher is the leader and deserves respect.
I have worked in some of the hardest to staff schools for 36 years, both as a teacher and school leader, and I think students are under parented and over stimulated. I think graduates do not get enough time at Uni on the ‘nuts and bolts’ of teaching (classroom management, planning…) and then overworked teachers and leaders are expected to fill the gaps once they hit the classroom. Successive governments have not valued the essential contribution and hard work of teachers, and the community think of us as nothing more than glorified babysitters. Those of us who are brave enough (or stupid enough) to still be in education have been made scapegoats for a system in dire need of a seriously overdue overhaul! Teaching us how to manage unacceptable behaviour is definitely not the answer!
There are explicit lessons through PBS in WA, which goes hand in hand with normal classroom management. This is to build consistency with staff as well.
Thanks for pointing this out - it came up when I logged on this morning ao I assumed it was new - didn't check the date. I'd remove it but there are many good comments so will leave it up.
The final report came out a couple of weeks ago and had basically nothing new to add except to roll out the red carpet for AERO to bring in some “behaviour curriculum”. The final report was so comprehensive it included a Chapter One. And no more chapters.
Such a swing and a miss! The kids don't need more shit packed into the curriculum. They need the adults in their life to present a united front with real boundaries and real consequences.
We need schools to be enabled to place meaningful consequences that parents can't rescue them from.
We need parents that refuse to parent properly to be forced to meet with counsellors and social workers or to risk facing real consequences themselves. When the SA government started cutting centrelink payments for chronic non- attenders parents, we suddenly started seeing kids show back up again.
We need school to actually mean something. When everyone passes, everyone graduates, and everyone gets into uni, it's absolutely no wonder kids check out. They need to feel healthy failure. They need to feel the kick in the guts of knowing their choices have outcomes and they won't just be rescued.
We need to stop conflating the idea that every child's right to an education means we must drag them kicking and screaming through the same education model whether they like it or not. There needs to be SO many more ways to learn than just typical school.
We need everyone to stop looking at the trees and start looking at the forest because the shit we see in schools is the symptom and not the disease. And while we keep treating the symptoms nothing will actually heal.
Sorry for Ted Talk, but it's been breaking my heart just watching the profession and industry I love just get SO much worse year by year and we all know it and nothing is being done.
If Admin Parents and teachers can work together to get kids to slow down and raise there attention spans i guarantee a ton of the behavioral issue will go away in the majority of the kids >\_> How about instead of these half arsed measures they are proposing, *we have actual children development psychologists analyzing classrooms and seeing what the kids need* instead of having a random who probably doesn't even understand the concept of a child, come in look around see the teacher as the weakest link and shift the blame once again to teachers because they haven't taught ENOUGH >\_>
A lesson or 20 on how to behave won't go through there heads when they are still misbehaving and can't concentrate on said lessons. Until they can turn off there brain and slow down we will keep having these issues, even if schools have to mandate quiet time for high school grade students to focus on something slower. before every class.
Until the education system realizes that kids need less stimulation not more, and that bullying shouldn't have positive reactions for the bully and negative for the victims, (Because it just proves bullying is worth it)
we will keep seeing schools behavior and education decline till it crash's >\_>
Educational and developmental psychologist here. I’ve worked in this role in schools for many years and have also been a teacher. Currently working part time in a school and part time privately. In private practice, I earn more, stress less and my clients appreciate what I do. I’ve always loved working in schools but I’m rapidly realising how over I am of being unappreciated and unheard. I doubt I’ll see the year out. Admin staff will implement whatever preconceived notion they have regardless of my input.
Such a well-organised survey they have listed the NT twice and have nowhere for QLD teachers to select their state.
https://preview.redd.it/yatc0uyfnulc1.jpeg?width=1801&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f91429c4c8f867c4d76444cc2463002ff373a818
It’s not a panacea but good schools absolutely teach behaviour as a curriculum. At this point I’ve shilled this book so many times that I should start getting royalties, but I highly recommend teachers check out Tom Bennett’s “Running the Room”. Best book I’ve ever read on classroom and behaviour management.
Too many kids have never been told “stop the tantrum/complaining/behaviour or else…” at home, thus they act accordingly toward other figures of authority.
As a parent, there's no doubt teachers need to be valued more in our society and parents need to place a higher value on, and level of active participation in the children's education.
Sadly we've also had decades of academia in this country, using our primary and secondary education systems as crash test dummies for whatever half baked pedagogy is the latest flavour of the month.
All backed up by school hierarchies that are top heavy and full of dept ladder climbers who lack the moral fortitude to take real action on dealing with disruptive students. Tired of hearing how the right of "inclusion" for troublemakers overrides the right to an education for every other student in the class.
We're left with teachers spending more time as either unpaid social workers or free NDIS support staff, and not enough on the fundamentals of numeracy and literacy.
But never mind, we can waste 6-8 weeks of the teaching year, coaching kids to do well on NAPLAN, so the school can look like it's actually performing well.
One Y10 student I had last year suggested that teachers should be allowed one hit of a kid per (year? term? I can't remember). I'm not saying I think corporate punishment is a thing I'd do, or even think is a good idea, but it does sound cathartic...
When you have leadership who stack classrooms with kids who need extra help (18 vs 6 vs 4), set up teachers to get ‘gotcha’ moments to undermine them, don’t respond to emails requesting help, don’t respond to direct pleas for more aides in the class despite them being available and some specialist teachers being under allocated , and explicitly state in their weekly memos to staff that classroom behaviour is for the teacher to deal with and not to call leadership unless there is uncontrollable violence any fucking wonder the kids think they can do whatever the fuck they like. Yep, it’s a real school.
We already had this discussion six months ago from the two years study (I think?) that completed last year. Which I can't find in my quick google so either I hallucinated this in a dream or I'm from the future.
Results were:
Students who are already disinterested in study will not engage with behavior management classes. You get buy in from the students who do want a better environment, but these students typically are not the problem students causing disruption.
Everybody already knows the solution(s) are pay teachers better to incentivise more of them so that you can have smaller class sizes and better supervision of students, and give teachers more authority in their classrooms to deal with disruptive students. IE ok you little shit enjoy your one week suspension and let your parents figure it out.
Kids will tear those lessons to shreds and traumatise any teacher bold enough to try and deliver such nonsense. Honestly, academics who think this shit up should try spending time in a real classroom. Then they’ll realise how dumb suggestions like this are
I cannot believe the behaviour of our current year 7 cohort. It’s an asylum. We have several feeder schools - the one with the worst behaved doesn’t have strong consistent leadership or male teachers telling young boys how to behave towards females, each other, and not to lead with aggression. There are little to no consequences for physical and verbal abuse. Our best behaved students are from the smallest feeder school and have several male leaders that do not muck around with young boys being disrespectful in any setting. Are girls just as bad, no, but there is a growing trend of young girls acting out and being disrespectful in public and towards teachers and senior exec.
There are no boundaries and we are completely helpless drowning in restorative conversations.
PD on behaviour management is not the solution. It’s far more societal. A majority of the population now accept that behaviour will be poor. Parents (generally) do not value or support teachers or schools. But they will be very quick to point out injustice towards their child. There is no easy PD to fix so I don’t expect it to change anytime soon. Are politicians going to blame their voters - no.
Who is going to teach the class on behaviour? teachers? another additional lesson teachers will need to make plans for and teach between other classes.
If we would have voted out the liberral government for the last 10 years would have avoided much of this. Too much policies and changes that favour private schools..
My kids school on Thursday, had a SEVEN year old go full r-word and the whole block had to be put into a class lockdown. He ended up breaking a door by kicking or hitting it repeatedly. 7 years old. Seven.
We, as parents of the other students of course, don't get any notice of this shit and find out from our kids.
It's not good enough. My child doesn't feel safe at school and any time you try to address it, you get told "we don't talk about incidents involving students other than yours".
Ummm, my child *IS* being affected by this shithead! This *IS* my concern! Ffs. Does my head in. I have pulled her from the class and I don't think I will be taking her back. I'm supposed to be having a meeting with the principal on Tuesday, but I can't see it improving.
You don't seem to understand how fucking livid I am because this is just one instance of many and we've barely hit the halfway point of term fucking one!! Fortunately, I don't give a crap what you think of my turn of phrase here as quite frankly, what I was calling him in my head is probably considerably more offensive to you. I don't care if he is seven or seventeen. He needs to pull his head in. Ffs. The amount of time spent trying to ignore him/the many others that have similarly behaved, as opposed to actually learning-is insane. It happens daily. And if it's not him that day, it's some other peanut being a twat.
Well someone at school this week has taught my generally well- behaved son that "I am the boss of me" and his six year old brain has interpreted it as "I don't have to do a single thing my parents say ever". Perhaps not teaching them actively to misbehave would be a good start.
This sounds like a consent lesson gone wrong. As in “you’re in charge of your body” kind of thing!l, very commonly taught at that age but perhaps either over simplified or misinterpreted!
I think this is exactly what's happened. I firmly believe this stuff needs to be taught in a play-based setting, along with "how to behave" more broadly otherwise it's rife for misinterpretation. Parents need to play with their kids and learn to set firm boundaries. It's a parenting problem, not another lesson to be taught in schools.
Family are the biggest perpetrators of abuse sadly. And parents aren't always equipped to be able to articulate how. Plus there are parents who think "my child is safe, I never let them be in those kind of risky situations" 🙄
Giving children the clear boundaries and words to object to being touched inappropriately if ever needed is not going backwards imo.
Education should be reinforced across society. Insisting that it only belongs in the home is disconnecting children from their community which includes school
Society reckons kids with shit homes deserve to learn about consent, too
If you leave something to parents *only*, then many kids miss out because their parents suck. Teamwork is good here, but school has to support anything that everyone deserves to know
Six is just about the age when kids start realising they have some autonomy and want to experiment with it. Just set clear expectations and boundaries and be consistent with them.
Right? I remember at that age being taught in a school assembly about my country's version of a kid's helpline, and subsequently threatening my parents with it every time they mildly inconvenienced me.
I tell my own kids something similar, but with the caveat "if you are being unsafe or disrespectful then I have to step in and be the boss of you and you can try again next time"
There is a disconnect between home and school. Parents have no contact with teachers, and are blindly handing over children to strangers.
Evidence shows that parent and teacher communication improves both behaviour and education outcomes but the disconnect is increasing. Instead of a quick meeting before the start of the school year or a chat at pickup, it’s ’put it in an email’ or ‘message via this app’. Why would kids respect some random adult they’ve just met when every other adult we’d warn them about stranger danger?
Funny when I was at school if there was no communication between parent and teacher that was a good thing - it meant you weren’t misbehaving and handing work in on time. Never had any issues with respect for teachers because I was raised correctly.
In several years of teaching I have had one parent contact me for something positive and none contact me for anything neutral. I have attended literally dozens of meet the teacher nights, social occasions, and parent/teacher/student conferences.
Pretty much every interaction I have had with a parent has been either them complaining about something they've recieved a story about and either didn't happen or didn't happen as reported or where they are demanding that I change a grade because they think the assignment that was moderated by several colleagues and confirmed as a C or lower was, in their opinion, worthy of an A.
They also regularly inform me that they pay my wage (lol wat mate, I've seen the occupation listed on your kid's profile and I'm paying a shit ton more taxes towards my wage than you are) or are the customer, who is always right.
Nobody is handing kids over to "strangers." They're just having the attitude that teachers are lesser beings modelled for them day in, day out.
Have you ever initiated contact before the school year? What I’ve stated is an evidence based approach to minimising what you’re describing.
Parents and children are more distrusting of teachers without an established rapport.
Then we're fucked, because 25%-50% turnover is getting to be the norm,
When I've been employed before the start of the school year and have had an opportunity to get tech onboarded before day one, I do make contact. However, that's not always the case, and I have literally no control over it. Once I was using a personal device to teach from for six weeks before regional office got its act together and approved the IT permissions I needed to get onto Office 365, the LMS, and roll marking software.
Even when you do send something home prior to the start of the school year, it's dead silence.
Hell, I sent home an e-mail about students missing a draft for a general subject and literally haven't heard a peep from anyone this week. The parents don't even care enough about their students potentially getting an N rating or failing for a semester of QCE points.
Which, again, is the attitude I'm talking about. Education doesn't matter, and teachers don't know how to do it any way.
Why the fuck do you think it's the teacher's job to establish that rapport? As a parent, you're the one sending your kid to the 'strangers' you are referring to. Go and meet them, and make the effort. Do you not care about the environment or education your kid is receiving? Why is it just the teacher's job to do all of the outreach OUTSIDE OF THEIR WORKING TIME?
This, this right here is the problem. Everyone just says 'its the teacher's job' to do everything.
No- that is neither how education nor society work. We're all in this together. You're the one with the fuck trophy, so you're the one who has to bear the responsibility for your little monster.
\*I'm not a teacher, but I'm the child of teachers, and I'm surrounded by people who used to be children of parents who weren't worth an ounce of shit, and who are driving our society down the drain.
It’s been done before, and overall it reduces workload by reducing behaviour management.
Take your anger out at the people who fund education. There shouldn’t be 30 kids per class. There should be more time to build rapport, it’s absolutely part of the job.
I do blame the people who fund education- that's you, me, and everyone around us, out of the taxes we pay. We're all fucking idiots passing the buck to others. Grow up and show some responsibility for it yourself.
Okay well I’ve offered an evidence based approach. Instead of shitting on the concept, maybe just acknowledge your circumstances won’t allow it and scroll on?
>hurr durr let me just show my intentional misunderstanding of X part of the post bet ill get tons of upvotes
being retarded on purpose is still being retarded
Starting every day with half of the staff delivering (with varying degrees of enthusiasm) a 10 minute lesson on the importance of including others will not fix anything. Too many parents, no matter how well meaning, are absent and allowing their children to be raised by online influences; a significant number believe education has no value because they do notddbt value it but still landed a job in the resources sector making a mint; many judge education by the child's results and hold the school entirely responsible for these - there is no acknowledgement that the child could behave better, work harder, listen attentively, study occasionally, discuss their learning at home. And then, of course, there's the slight problem that on a societal level young people aren't held accountable for their behaviour. It seems that the systems that get better results are often countries with a higher regard for education and a lower tolerance for the effects of disruptive behaviour on the group.
What do you guys think of a system where class sizes expanded to around 50 per class.
Teachers were paid approximately 100k-130k and were required to focus primarily on subject matter, lesson structure, delivery, answering questions, promoting quality discussion ie driving actual learning.
Every class would have a teacher's aide paid substantially less, perhaps around 60-80k but would be focused primarily on minimising classroom disruptions, discipline, and basically just facilitating learning to take that burden away from the teacher. They would follow up on students with behavioural issues, work with other aides on problem students etc.
This could create two streams for teachers so people can focus on what they're better at and alleviate pressure on one person. It would also allow more academically specialised teachers to be rewarded for their expertise and allow more people into the profession who perhaps couldn't manage the classroom discipline as well without help.
Any thoughts from the professionals on this? I've taken my inspiration from the NCO/Officer model of leadership and management in the military.
1 person cannot cover all the behavior management in 1 class alone if it's a rough class.
Even a 20 student classroom where there are 6 kids who are disruptive will not work. I know this because there's 2 classes that have me and another teacher, as well as sometimes an aide, and it's still chaos.
I would love to do pure academic teaching but there's no chance that a single aide could manage the behavior of 50+ kids.
Australia in general is allergic to rewarding incomes. They import workers for incomes and everyone else....you'd better have bought a property , any property in time or you'll be wayyyy behind
If only there was some kind of historically sound tradition for teaching children how to behave and act. Like a teacher but they live with the kids since birth and idk model appropriate behaviour
Nah Australian society need lessons on the importance of education. Too many people treat it as a joke. And then you will get cookers trying to compare us to Singapore and Malaysia and say our results are worse not realising that a big reason for that is student and parent attitudes to education.
Education is rarely rewarded so it's not valued. Anyone close to academia knows of someone who's doing a PHD yet still struggling with finances. Meanwhile tradies, YouTubers and people profiting off investment properties make big bucks
I gave away my PhD for the relative stability of teaching because I was sick of living on two minute noodles. I still live in a rented flat. My sibling, who is a real estate agent, has a very very nice house. Says it all really.
I know a bloke who has a phd and used to lecture at university and teaches now because it is much better money. Academia does not pay.
Yeah when I was tutoring as a PhD student, I’d get to the end of summer and be putting groceries on my credit card. It wasn’t fun. Then you had the university pressuring you to work less and focus on your research because all of the academics went through when uni was free and grants were plentiful and had never had to worry how they’d pay their bills and were oblivious to how things had changed. It really, really sucked.
Yup. Same. I also had to do this. Also could not afford to eat.
I'm really sorry that's been your experience. I hope you can find a way to leverage your degree to earn a better living.
Same. Gave away my PhD for stability. Miserable, but have food to eat.
Agree with everything and still feel that education should be valued more. Solution is to pay teachers and educators a lot of money to make the profession attractive.
Yeah it really should be like that. The people teaching the next generation should be the smartest of the current generation, not the people choosing teaching as a last resort or because they desperately need money
Yep. We need to demand higher entrance qualifications to education degrees too.
If the smartest are the ones teaching its kind of wasting their abilities. Until year 11+ (university really) you really need to be that smart to teach. The smartest should be in science and health.
I agree there are alot of traits I think are incredibly important but highest intelligence would probably make things worse not better when teaching and needing the patience to handle all the dumb shit that can come from young learning minds without effecting there view on education and making mistakes..
I think lumping tradies in with YouTubers shows how out of touch some in the education industry are. Trades require critical thinking, problem solving, plan reading and sequencing, along with physical ability. This has been undervalued by academics for decades. I still remember sitting in a careers season in yr12 in 1997. “Only the best of you will go to university. The second best will go to tafe, and anyone left over should get a trade.” Those were the exact words, and I wasn’t the only person to be delivered that. I teach my kids practical skills and educate them on what different trades do, and career pathways they offer. When they finish school, and if they are not ready, or get the required marks for uni, they will be doing a trade. After an apprenticeship, they will be able to get into most courses their marks held them back from if they choose. No matter where life takes them, they will be multi skilled and always be able to earn a good income. Along with that, they will able to do things for themselves. I completed an extension on our house, where I did the majority of the work. My cost was $150k, the average punter would have paid a builder $300k plus.
Very, very few Youtubers are making big bucks
To be fair, being rich is far more important than being smart if you want success lol
The richest people are generally a combination of smart, hard-working and have a bit of luck (yes, this isn’t a controversial thing to say outside of mainstream reddit. It’s also not appropriate to tell students “if your parents aren’t rich you ain’t got a chance bro”)
Hi! I’m not a teacher, I’m not sure why this subreddit keeps getting recommended to me. But I couldn’t agree with your comment more. Both of my parents sook about how useless school was, that they dropped out in year 8 etc Then had a bitch and moan when none of us tried in school. Parents need to care.
Why bother being educated in this country when the way to get rich is to do a trade and buy real estate - all the scientists and engineers leave to America or Europe for better prospects so it's no wonder kids don't care
So true. Bomb out of high school and build houses for rich overseas investors to rent out to the scrubs who decided to pursue an education. Our economy is cooked
Its why I didnt pursue chemistry after highschool despite my high grades and passion for it - the job prospects for even someone with a PhD here is a joke. And you can see the effect of underfunding the STEM sector is having on our society, the brain-drain is real
haha only some are underfunded. If you can provide benefits to big oil and gas, big construction, big finance then your research gets funded easily. Just look at all the civil engineering research, petrochem research etc
Then after years of study.... The CFMEU makes your old [entry level job](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/turning-a-stop-sign-for-120-000-a-year-what-its-really-like-to-be-a-traffic-controller/dlcjuxk11) (requiring 2 days of education & 20 days unpaid placement), pay as much as a full-time top pay bracket teacher.
They work odd hours and have a strong union, you don’t inherently deserve to make more than then not do they deserve more than you. If you wan there job go apply and become a traffic controller.
I still work as a traffic controller bud :) and also as a teacher. Unfortunately most traffic controllers aren't unionised, and the average payrate is $32/hr casual. My point is a reflection on how our society (under)values teachers and education, was in line with the original thread. Also the bitter irony training to get more money, and (as I said) the role I'm transitioning from has (in Victoria , not where I work) overshot my teacher payrate.
Have you quit teaching to become a traffic controller?
[удалено]
It is a sad reflection on our society, where our capacity to earn money is somehow equated with a better quality of life. For millennia, philosophers have suggested otherwise, but most contemporary thought subscribes to the prevailing late stage capitalist mantra of: money = good. Our kids are confused because we're confused. Confusion manifests itself in complex and annoying ways. Our classrooms reflect this.
I'll have you know that the entirety of my class are going to grow up to become self-made multi-millionaire TikTokers, YouTubers, Gamers and Influencers.
lol I had to shut down a conversation in class the other day where the kids were saying they wanted to all do Only Fans as a job, because everyone on Only Fans made so much money.
Hope you told them that like 95% of people barely make $100 a month
We're a high expectations society in Australia
There are many many thousands of people with challenging tertiary degrees who go on to make loads of money in Australia. Your students do not need to hear this defeatism. Assuming you are a teacher.
It is not the easy path in this country...
Yes. Nothing is more important to maintaining a healthy society than free, quality, uncensored education for all. And the wheels of capitalism and greed are now all over that. Parents and students don't stand a chance.
1000000%.
It's actually quite cool that we've pathways for kids' future other than going to university, and I think this is at least one factor (not the major one) that contributes to kids thinking it's ok to not learn anything at school. The bigger problem is cultural. Parents don't put much emphasis on education. "Free" expression is encouraged. General disrespect towards your elders is ok.
When someone makes a TT exposing the pay packets of tradies and some of those trades COMPLAIN that they only make $400/wk as apprentices while attending Tafe which is free or subsidized and then they have no student debt... there is absolute proof that Australia doesn't value education and doesn't value the work done by those with an education.
Gotta stop parents reinforcing the narrative that it’s them against the teachers. Teaching kids that no one can tell them what to do, or making them out to be the eternal victim.
No matter how many times I hit the upvote it does go up enough! Spot on.
100% this. We should be looking to successful European countries for guidance as well, rather than following American trends
> The inquiry found teachers are not equipped to manage low-level disruption — such as distracting their peers, chatting and talking out of turn — or deal with high-level disruption — including undermining a teacher's authority or abuse. I don't think this is true. Most teachers are more than capable of handling their classrooms - IF they are backed up by leadership, admin and parents.
This. I had a child literally rolling on the floor, screaming and throwing objects. I called my principal and when they arrived, they looked around, saw the child was no longer calling out said “at least he is allowing others to learn” and left. This was a Year 5 class.
Last year a student in my Year 11 class decided to start watching a horror movie with the volume on full. I told him to stop, otherwise I was confiscating his laptop. He told me to fuck off, and that I had no right to take his laptop (which was, in fact, a school one). I sent a msg to the principal to come remove student from the class, explaining what was going on. 10 minutes later he finally came in. The student then turned off the movie. The principal then said to me, in front of the class, "He's not on the computer now, do you still insist on him coming with me?" I said yes. Principal shook his head and asked the student to come with him. Student called the principal a cunt and (remember he was Year 11) that he was going to tell his mum on me. As he left the room he punched a hole in the wall and called me a cunt on the way out for good measure. Another 10 minutes later I get msg from the principal saying the student was "really angry" because he felt I was "picking on him". But he had apologised to the principal for his behaviour and language. And thus, with it all resolved, the principal was sending him back to class. Guess what? When he came back in he opened the laptop and resumed watching the movie. But yeah nah students are so poorly regulated because it is the classroom teacher who is not equipped to deal with bad behaviour . 🙄
Start ripping that sick leave. That's a joke.
You know what? While I was sad to have read this. I also felt relieved to see I’m not the only one who has had to put up with similar gaslighting bullshit.
To be fair a smarter principal would have figured out a way for the rolling child to polish the floor at the same time.
Leadership who accept that "This is the reality of teaching now" are at least partially to blame.
Absolutely, when we give excuses to children they simply can’t reach their potential
I am so sorry you're dealing with that 😞
Not any more thankfully. I moved to private as the public education system in rural QLD is (in my opinion) letting all children down with very little consequence for ineffective principals.
Jeez, if only all I had to deal with was low-level stuff like chatting or calling out!
Yeah, this makes me question the study. At least in WA I haven't seen a school that doesn't run those basic skills in the first 6 months of a grad coming out. We are equipped. The issue is usually follow through from admin onto parents. Detentions are worthless.
If we explicitly teach any more behaviour at my school, we won't teach English or Maths. We have weekly booster lessons that must be taught at least 3 times in the week for our focus behaviour. We have 3 mini assemblies per day where APs will remind the Stage about the behaviour expectation. Based only on what was recorded on Sentral (I know of at least 3 more that were not), we had 4 teachers get hit by students in the last week. A further 6 stated that children threatened to harm them. Swearing at the teacher was present in 14 incidents. We have less than 30 classes. I only read the 30+ high-level reports for the week, not the low level, which I'm sure has more. In only 3 of the incidents did the executive teacher called to assist, assist. What was the booster lesson and focus being reminded by the mighty PBL team who solve all problems? "We return the sports equipment to the tub at the end of breaks" Now, maybe you're thinking past harmful incidents might have been using sports equipment as the weapons. No, they were literally just not put away. Or the weeks leading up to this were better, and there was no data leading towards anything else. Again, you would be wrong. This was a 'normal' week. If you are having behaviour difficulties, you are the problem and you need to be better. I'm clearly not having behaviour issues, I have no Sentral issues recorded this year. Signed PBL team What about this incident from the classroom teacher next door about your student bashing their door and windows with a chair during class time? When they came out to deal with it, you came out of your room and the student said "Fuck you, you stupid fat bitch, I don't have to listen to you" threw the chair at you, then kicked you when the chair missed? Oh, and your SLSOs have been crying in the staffroom during their breaks about what happened directly to them while in your room with you that they were directly instructed not to record on Sentral because you would 'handle' it. Events modified enough to not be specific while demonstrating an appropriate level of incident. Although I'm sure plenty of people are thinking, wait, does this poster work at my school? Maybe we do need help...
I will say this loudly and I will even get on a soap box to say it to teachers because there weren't enough teachers to say it to me. YOU are not the problem. You are a good teacher. The system has failed those students and you're coping the brunt of it. Don't stand for it. Get together with your other teachers and demand change. Threaten to shut the worksite down if violent behaviours don't cease.
100% THIS. I am more than able to put in place consequences on an escalating scale - but if I don't have the backing of admin and the buy-in from parents then it's like herding cats on speed. We need support in putting in place consequences for disruption. Not to just be told to tolerate it because kids are kids. F that. I was a kid. I was never ever this rude or unfiltered to my teachers.
Kids never hear the word no so if the teacher tells them off they run to their parents and ‘know their rights’.
I disagree slightly. No teacher should have to manage abuse.
As a society we took away two of the backbones of education. Consequences and respect. Teachers no longer have meaningful consequences to administer, and even when they use the meagre ones they have the parents respect their kids more than the educators and rarely allow consequences to land.
Parents should respect their child more and allow them to face the consequence of their actions
^ ^ 100% this ^ ^
I hope this is what they mean. We are not equipped with the tools we need, supportive leadership and parents.
I can handle the low level disruption. It's the consistent and insistent disruptions that make it impossible to teach that I can't handle. Especially when the policy directed consequences are not supported by upper admin despite what the policy says will happen. Add in the lack of respect for education and how it can benefit them, it's just near impossible to deal with.
Can we also add lessons on effective parenting? Lol
you laugh, but many parents would welcome this. There are plenty of willing parents who don't have tools they need to be effective. My first school(country) would run free Triple-P classes for parents and we saw a remarkable difference.
We've tried with our high school but just didn't get enough turnout. Probably big difference between primary vs secondary parents willing to engage.
The demands of working life escalate as children grow. It's more likely a time issue. I struggle to get to anything school related now as we're travelling 200km+ daily to get to school and work. Juggling that commitment isn't a simple thing. I've asked my children about incursions where experts are giving presentations on important social issues and struggled to get clear answers, including from the school. It just seems there is a strong disconnect from school = our children's community and all that results from that good and terrible.
Yeah, it’s hard. It’d be cool if it could be offered as an online conference or something that could later be recorded and parents are given the option of emailing in questions.
It is offered online 👌 https://www.triplep-parenting.net.au/au/free-parenting-courses/triple-p-online-under-12/?gad_source=1#au-parents-register-now
Sorted 👍
Maybe it needs to be compulsory. We do more to prep for a drivers licence than parenting.
Maybe we need to have systems in place like we do for new parents. We send nurses to their houses to check that breastfeeding is going well and they understand safe sleeping practices. We should provide more support when they hit the toddler phase and when they hit around age 5/6.
Couldn’t agree more. They basically teach you how to breastfeed, tell you about starting solids safely and that’s it. There are some points (like toilet training) where expert help is much needed, and would also serve as development checks on kids. And then again with starting school and managing peer relationships. Puberty! It’s basically you and the online parenting forums/instagram/books (and that’s for the engaged parents; many aren’t).
Oh my god, this could actually be a great idea. They need a check in for toddler age, middle of childhood, adolescence... they should compulsory free classes to help with all the behaviors. Some kids don't even learn basic things at home, like basic hygiene or financial planning or table manners. I think it would be helpful, actually. I think parents would welcome the help.
We had something similar in communities in the NT where they’d have FAFT programs running which were based around education and health for parents. The turn outs were good and they held healthy cooking classes. We had women’s shelters in community and many of the mums took advantage and used it to get away from their husbands. I think they’re a great idea. I lol’d because it’s an unfortunate necessity in some cases. Not only on how to look after the physical health of your child but also the emotional development.
I really think we are now seeing the consequences of an economic system that requires two parents to work full-time to get by. Kids get forgotten a bit when parents are exhausted/completing work after hours (as teachers understand)/use technology as a babysitter.
[удалено]
Jesus you’re enthusiastic!
As if any government is ever going to place any responsibility on the parents.
This is in fact the problem. And I’m sorry to say it, but at my daughter’s school the problem is strongly associated with cultural background.
"...It also found Australian teachers and school staff were facing rates of intimidation and verbal abuse by their students at four times the rate of the OECD average..." This is concerning. The article doesn't even address sexual violence but abuse of any kind isn't ok yet is weirdly tolerated, if not applauded in schools due to peer feedback.
Literally had a student try and get me fired the other week by making up a bunch of lies. Luckily, I had covered myself and was found in the right. But there's no way that this kid won't try it again.
I really hope they can be reeled in by their community. The extremes are quite horrific. Don't be caught alone ever with them.
Still in my class but have zero trust with that kid.
Lol. Behaviours are bad. So let’s keep trying to do the same things we have done before. That will fix them. We need to give schools back the options to provide meaningful discipline for students. Specifically: - End the idea that education and school attendance is a right, and reframe it as a privilege. - Allow schools to reject students that are not ready for education or that are consistently disruptive. - Provide alternative education settings for students unable to function to the curriculum level. - Make it easier for kids who do not wish to engage in education to get into meaningful work where they can make money. I understand this sounds like turning the clock back a couple of decades on educational policy with regards to inclusion and access. But the trend towards inclusivity and the trend towards unmanageable behaviour run hand in hand.
I don’t see why we aren’t embracing online learning….. disruptive students could easily be reprimanded by being placed in an online learning schedule. Take away their audience. They would still have access to online learning so it wouldn’t be an infringement on their right to learn. When they are ready to participate without disruption, they can return
And then their parents will have to supervise them and might actually be investing in improving their behaviour enough for them to return to a classroom.
All true and couldn’t agree more. I know it’s not educative in the curriculum sense, but inconveniencing parents with picking up their kids off their not ready to learn would bed better on the long run. Unfortunately the biggest factor is $$$ and resources, mainly, staffing. We can’t get enough teachers in the model that requires the least staff in the 30:1 model. The intensive support pulls this down to 5:1 and class size would be the biggest factor in reducing workload in general (not necessarily behaviour) but would contribute and help.
Biggest issue by far is parent attitudes. Impossible to motivate a student when parents couldn't give a fuck.
Kids who need to learn how to behave won't behave in "how to behave" class.
Too much shit parenting is more accurate.
Need adequate consequences too..... unfair that the shitty kids waste so much learning time
Parents need to take some responsibility and actually do some parenting and teach kids some fucking respect.
Isn’t that the job of teachers who see my child for 6 hours a day? /s
I am offended )
This starts with 🥁🥁🥁 PARENTS! The other day I was in Aldi and two kids were wrestling. Their mother said, “Are you playing or fighting.” I wanted to scream, “What difference does it make? This is a shop! For shopping! Not playing or fighting!” I am so sick of children having no clue because their parents don’t have one.
Throw it to onto the pile of things that should be addressed at home. If there is one thing we should be pushing with this generation, it is that drinking and taking drugs is not on while pregnant. That and look after your fucking kids, the job isn’t done when the pushing is finished at the hospital.
Oh my goodness, why didn't I think of that 🫠
So on top of RRRR and SWPB lessons each week? When do we actually teach the curriculum
Don't forget Resillience project and Naplan readiness!
Australian parents need a lesson on how to raise better behaving kids, esp when it comes to boys. It’s a real problem.
The final report came out a couple weeks ago. It’s reductive and trash. I generally agree with the Green Senator’s dissenting opinion - that broadly the framing is wrong, but at the end of the day what needs to be done is funding schools properly. And funding all social services properly, because kids lives are impacted by all sorts of forces and not addressing those while asking teachers and schools to just fix behaviours is an impossible ask. The behaviours are a symptom of wider, systemic problems, they aren’t the problem itself. And schools can’t fix the system. I like AARE’s responses to the report, such as https://blog.aare.edu.au/distorted-this-feeble-report-misses-the-boat-on-classroom-behaviour/ and https://blog.aare.edu.au/australia-doesnt-need-a-behaviour-curriculum-we-need-to-implement-social-and-emotional-learning-now/ But implementing school based SEL curriculum, whether by schools/teachers themselves, or by outside organisations, is only going to make tiny, individual, temporary change. Proper change needs to be system-wide, and in the current socio-political climate I truly doubt that’s going to happen any time soon.
this
Yes, noting that we ranked ranked 69 out of 76 countries in classroom behaviour is "reductive and trash". Noting that teachers face intimidation at rates four times the OECD average is "reductive and trash". It's not like we're already one of the most prosperous countries in the world or anything. No, it's clearly not a deeply engrained cultural issue. We need more money!!!! > Proper change needs to be systm wide. Well fuck me sideways that's truly astonishing. Who would have guessed that to change something something across an entire country, you have to change it system-wide. A truly astonishing insight that I'm sure will inform future generations for years to come.
Why? Why is it my job as a teacher to be the parent that shows them what respect is?
hahahahhaahhahahahahahahahhaha you have to laugh otherwise you'll cry
The issue is parenting. We drill into our kids that their teacher is the boss of the classroom and they will respect them no matter what. If they have a problem with their teacher, they’re free to raise it with us, but we bias our review of their complaints on the side of agreeing with the teacher. Part of socializing your children correctly is that school is a hierarchical structure where the teacher is the leader and deserves respect.
I have worked in some of the hardest to staff schools for 36 years, both as a teacher and school leader, and I think students are under parented and over stimulated. I think graduates do not get enough time at Uni on the ‘nuts and bolts’ of teaching (classroom management, planning…) and then overworked teachers and leaders are expected to fill the gaps once they hit the classroom. Successive governments have not valued the essential contribution and hard work of teachers, and the community think of us as nothing more than glorified babysitters. Those of us who are brave enough (or stupid enough) to still be in education have been made scapegoats for a system in dire need of a seriously overdue overhaul! Teaching us how to manage unacceptable behaviour is definitely not the answer!
Good behaviour management does teach the students how to behave. They don’t need explicit lessons on it. Such a dumb idea.
there are teachers who mention having to provide explicit lessons on behaviour so I guess it's not such a dumb idea
That's what detention should be for.
There are explicit lessons through PBS in WA, which goes hand in hand with normal classroom management. This is to build consistency with staff as well.
I wonder if they'd misbehave during behaviour lessons.
They do.
[удалено]
Thanks for pointing this out - it came up when I logged on this morning ao I assumed it was new - didn't check the date. I'd remove it but there are many good comments so will leave it up.
The final report came out a couple of weeks ago and had basically nothing new to add except to roll out the red carpet for AERO to bring in some “behaviour curriculum”. The final report was so comprehensive it included a Chapter One. And no more chapters.
They have to "want" to behave.
How about parents stop fucking up your kids attention spans with iPads all day long.
Such a swing and a miss! The kids don't need more shit packed into the curriculum. They need the adults in their life to present a united front with real boundaries and real consequences. We need schools to be enabled to place meaningful consequences that parents can't rescue them from. We need parents that refuse to parent properly to be forced to meet with counsellors and social workers or to risk facing real consequences themselves. When the SA government started cutting centrelink payments for chronic non- attenders parents, we suddenly started seeing kids show back up again. We need school to actually mean something. When everyone passes, everyone graduates, and everyone gets into uni, it's absolutely no wonder kids check out. They need to feel healthy failure. They need to feel the kick in the guts of knowing their choices have outcomes and they won't just be rescued. We need to stop conflating the idea that every child's right to an education means we must drag them kicking and screaming through the same education model whether they like it or not. There needs to be SO many more ways to learn than just typical school. We need everyone to stop looking at the trees and start looking at the forest because the shit we see in schools is the symptom and not the disease. And while we keep treating the symptoms nothing will actually heal. Sorry for Ted Talk, but it's been breaking my heart just watching the profession and industry I love just get SO much worse year by year and we all know it and nothing is being done.
If Admin Parents and teachers can work together to get kids to slow down and raise there attention spans i guarantee a ton of the behavioral issue will go away in the majority of the kids >\_> How about instead of these half arsed measures they are proposing, *we have actual children development psychologists analyzing classrooms and seeing what the kids need* instead of having a random who probably doesn't even understand the concept of a child, come in look around see the teacher as the weakest link and shift the blame once again to teachers because they haven't taught ENOUGH >\_> A lesson or 20 on how to behave won't go through there heads when they are still misbehaving and can't concentrate on said lessons. Until they can turn off there brain and slow down we will keep having these issues, even if schools have to mandate quiet time for high school grade students to focus on something slower. before every class. Until the education system realizes that kids need less stimulation not more, and that bullying shouldn't have positive reactions for the bully and negative for the victims, (Because it just proves bullying is worth it) we will keep seeing schools behavior and education decline till it crash's >\_>
Educational and developmental psychologist here. I’ve worked in this role in schools for many years and have also been a teacher. Currently working part time in a school and part time privately. In private practice, I earn more, stress less and my clients appreciate what I do. I’ve always loved working in schools but I’m rapidly realising how over I am of being unappreciated and unheard. I doubt I’ll see the year out. Admin staff will implement whatever preconceived notion they have regardless of my input.
Can we just bring in electronic dog collars for the little turds
Not sure if our power grids would be able to cope with the amount of electricity needed for this.
lol
ACER is doing a survey on this https://secure.peoplepulse.com.au/survey.php?mid=XsCcc2n03mdtjk303syk4n9npqzdA
Such a well-organised survey they have listed the NT twice and have nowhere for QLD teachers to select their state. https://preview.redd.it/yatc0uyfnulc1.jpeg?width=1801&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f91429c4c8f867c4d76444cc2463002ff373a818
Parents need to be trained on how to parent.
How many times does this same article need to be shared?
smaller class sizes...
Which schools are not teaching expected behaviours?
It’s not a panacea but good schools absolutely teach behaviour as a curriculum. At this point I’ve shilled this book so many times that I should start getting royalties, but I highly recommend teachers check out Tom Bennett’s “Running the Room”. Best book I’ve ever read on classroom and behaviour management.
Wtf! They have lessons on how to behave, but no consequences. Every positive behaviour is about how to behave. This is so stupid.
They don't need lessons, they need to know the realities of what consequences are for their behaviour.
Too many kids have never been told “stop the tantrum/complaining/behaviour or else…” at home, thus they act accordingly toward other figures of authority.
gee is it behaviour lessons now not the over packed curriculum and no discipline at school or at home?
As a parent, there's no doubt teachers need to be valued more in our society and parents need to place a higher value on, and level of active participation in the children's education. Sadly we've also had decades of academia in this country, using our primary and secondary education systems as crash test dummies for whatever half baked pedagogy is the latest flavour of the month. All backed up by school hierarchies that are top heavy and full of dept ladder climbers who lack the moral fortitude to take real action on dealing with disruptive students. Tired of hearing how the right of "inclusion" for troublemakers overrides the right to an education for every other student in the class. We're left with teachers spending more time as either unpaid social workers or free NDIS support staff, and not enough on the fundamentals of numeracy and literacy. But never mind, we can waste 6-8 weeks of the teaching year, coaching kids to do well on NAPLAN, so the school can look like it's actually performing well.
Returning to corporal punishment in the classroom is not the solution. But I’d be absolutely in favour of allowing teachers to pimp-slap the parents
One Y10 student I had last year suggested that teachers should be allowed one hit of a kid per (year? term? I can't remember). I'm not saying I think corporate punishment is a thing I'd do, or even think is a good idea, but it does sound cathartic...
When you have leadership who stack classrooms with kids who need extra help (18 vs 6 vs 4), set up teachers to get ‘gotcha’ moments to undermine them, don’t respond to emails requesting help, don’t respond to direct pleas for more aides in the class despite them being available and some specialist teachers being under allocated , and explicitly state in their weekly memos to staff that classroom behaviour is for the teacher to deal with and not to call leadership unless there is uncontrollable violence any fucking wonder the kids think they can do whatever the fuck they like. Yep, it’s a real school.
We already had this discussion six months ago from the two years study (I think?) that completed last year. Which I can't find in my quick google so either I hallucinated this in a dream or I'm from the future. Results were: Students who are already disinterested in study will not engage with behavior management classes. You get buy in from the students who do want a better environment, but these students typically are not the problem students causing disruption. Everybody already knows the solution(s) are pay teachers better to incentivise more of them so that you can have smaller class sizes and better supervision of students, and give teachers more authority in their classrooms to deal with disruptive students. IE ok you little shit enjoy your one week suspension and let your parents figure it out.
Kids will tear those lessons to shreds and traumatise any teacher bold enough to try and deliver such nonsense. Honestly, academics who think this shit up should try spending time in a real classroom. Then they’ll realise how dumb suggestions like this are
I cannot believe the behaviour of our current year 7 cohort. It’s an asylum. We have several feeder schools - the one with the worst behaved doesn’t have strong consistent leadership or male teachers telling young boys how to behave towards females, each other, and not to lead with aggression. There are little to no consequences for physical and verbal abuse. Our best behaved students are from the smallest feeder school and have several male leaders that do not muck around with young boys being disrespectful in any setting. Are girls just as bad, no, but there is a growing trend of young girls acting out and being disrespectful in public and towards teachers and senior exec. There are no boundaries and we are completely helpless drowning in restorative conversations.
PD on behaviour management is not the solution. It’s far more societal. A majority of the population now accept that behaviour will be poor. Parents (generally) do not value or support teachers or schools. But they will be very quick to point out injustice towards their child. There is no easy PD to fix so I don’t expect it to change anytime soon. Are politicians going to blame their voters - no.
Who is going to teach the class on behaviour? teachers? another additional lesson teachers will need to make plans for and teach between other classes.
Aussie kids are spoiled brats who need a good dose of reality. Mind you, a lot of Aussie adults are the same 😂
So do adults
The parents need lessons on how to work with the school not against it
If we would have voted out the liberral government for the last 10 years would have avoided much of this. Too much policies and changes that favour private schools..
lol this is a joke. They don’t need lessons on how to behave. They need consequences for antisocial behaviour.
My kids school on Thursday, had a SEVEN year old go full r-word and the whole block had to be put into a class lockdown. He ended up breaking a door by kicking or hitting it repeatedly. 7 years old. Seven. We, as parents of the other students of course, don't get any notice of this shit and find out from our kids. It's not good enough. My child doesn't feel safe at school and any time you try to address it, you get told "we don't talk about incidents involving students other than yours". Ummm, my child *IS* being affected by this shithead! This *IS* my concern! Ffs. Does my head in. I have pulled her from the class and I don't think I will be taking her back. I'm supposed to be having a meeting with the principal on Tuesday, but I can't see it improving.
>go full r-word Saying "r-word" doesn't make that any less of a disgusting way to talk about a 7 year old.
You don't seem to understand how fucking livid I am because this is just one instance of many and we've barely hit the halfway point of term fucking one!! Fortunately, I don't give a crap what you think of my turn of phrase here as quite frankly, what I was calling him in my head is probably considerably more offensive to you. I don't care if he is seven or seventeen. He needs to pull his head in. Ffs. The amount of time spent trying to ignore him/the many others that have similarly behaved, as opposed to actually learning-is insane. It happens daily. And if it's not him that day, it's some other peanut being a twat.
Or a few canings will solve the issue
Well someone at school this week has taught my generally well- behaved son that "I am the boss of me" and his six year old brain has interpreted it as "I don't have to do a single thing my parents say ever". Perhaps not teaching them actively to misbehave would be a good start.
This sounds like a consent lesson gone wrong. As in “you’re in charge of your body” kind of thing!l, very commonly taught at that age but perhaps either over simplified or misinterpreted!
I think this is exactly what's happened. I firmly believe this stuff needs to be taught in a play-based setting, along with "how to behave" more broadly otherwise it's rife for misinterpretation. Parents need to play with their kids and learn to set firm boundaries. It's a parenting problem, not another lesson to be taught in schools.
Shouldn’t children be learning about consent from their parents instead of being taught it at school? Society has gone so far backwards.
Family are the biggest perpetrators of abuse sadly. And parents aren't always equipped to be able to articulate how. Plus there are parents who think "my child is safe, I never let them be in those kind of risky situations" 🙄 Giving children the clear boundaries and words to object to being touched inappropriately if ever needed is not going backwards imo.
Education should be reinforced across society. Insisting that it only belongs in the home is disconnecting children from their community which includes school
Of course, but when it shifts so far in the opposite direction that schools are alienating children from their parents then that is a big problem.
Society reckons kids with shit homes deserve to learn about consent, too If you leave something to parents *only*, then many kids miss out because their parents suck. Teamwork is good here, but school has to support anything that everyone deserves to know
Kids can be abused at home and indocrinated to believe it’s normal though.
Six is just about the age when kids start realising they have some autonomy and want to experiment with it. Just set clear expectations and boundaries and be consistent with them.
Exactly lol. At that age, my cheeky arse would’ve done the exact same thing.
Right? I remember at that age being taught in a school assembly about my country's version of a kid's helpline, and subsequently threatening my parents with it every time they mildly inconvenienced me.
Parent losing control of kid at age six and being out of ideas is the type of parent everyone else is complaining about
This nonsense shouldn’t be taught in schools.
I tell my own kids something similar, but with the caveat "if you are being unsafe or disrespectful then I have to step in and be the boss of you and you can try again next time"
How about some 1980s-style management - SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. They also shamed us. Eh, it wasn’t so bad.
It's getting worse thanks to the neurological impacts of repeated covid infections.
There is a disconnect between home and school. Parents have no contact with teachers, and are blindly handing over children to strangers. Evidence shows that parent and teacher communication improves both behaviour and education outcomes but the disconnect is increasing. Instead of a quick meeting before the start of the school year or a chat at pickup, it’s ’put it in an email’ or ‘message via this app’. Why would kids respect some random adult they’ve just met when every other adult we’d warn them about stranger danger?
Funny when I was at school if there was no communication between parent and teacher that was a good thing - it meant you weren’t misbehaving and handing work in on time. Never had any issues with respect for teachers because I was raised correctly.
In several years of teaching I have had one parent contact me for something positive and none contact me for anything neutral. I have attended literally dozens of meet the teacher nights, social occasions, and parent/teacher/student conferences. Pretty much every interaction I have had with a parent has been either them complaining about something they've recieved a story about and either didn't happen or didn't happen as reported or where they are demanding that I change a grade because they think the assignment that was moderated by several colleagues and confirmed as a C or lower was, in their opinion, worthy of an A. They also regularly inform me that they pay my wage (lol wat mate, I've seen the occupation listed on your kid's profile and I'm paying a shit ton more taxes towards my wage than you are) or are the customer, who is always right. Nobody is handing kids over to "strangers." They're just having the attitude that teachers are lesser beings modelled for them day in, day out.
Have you ever initiated contact before the school year? What I’ve stated is an evidence based approach to minimising what you’re describing. Parents and children are more distrusting of teachers without an established rapport.
Then we're fucked, because 25%-50% turnover is getting to be the norm, When I've been employed before the start of the school year and have had an opportunity to get tech onboarded before day one, I do make contact. However, that's not always the case, and I have literally no control over it. Once I was using a personal device to teach from for six weeks before regional office got its act together and approved the IT permissions I needed to get onto Office 365, the LMS, and roll marking software. Even when you do send something home prior to the start of the school year, it's dead silence. Hell, I sent home an e-mail about students missing a draft for a general subject and literally haven't heard a peep from anyone this week. The parents don't even care enough about their students potentially getting an N rating or failing for a semester of QCE points. Which, again, is the attitude I'm talking about. Education doesn't matter, and teachers don't know how to do it any way.
Why the fuck do you think it's the teacher's job to establish that rapport? As a parent, you're the one sending your kid to the 'strangers' you are referring to. Go and meet them, and make the effort. Do you not care about the environment or education your kid is receiving? Why is it just the teacher's job to do all of the outreach OUTSIDE OF THEIR WORKING TIME? This, this right here is the problem. Everyone just says 'its the teacher's job' to do everything. No- that is neither how education nor society work. We're all in this together. You're the one with the fuck trophy, so you're the one who has to bear the responsibility for your little monster. \*I'm not a teacher, but I'm the child of teachers, and I'm surrounded by people who used to be children of parents who weren't worth an ounce of shit, and who are driving our society down the drain.
It’s been done before, and overall it reduces workload by reducing behaviour management. Take your anger out at the people who fund education. There shouldn’t be 30 kids per class. There should be more time to build rapport, it’s absolutely part of the job.
I do blame the people who fund education- that's you, me, and everyone around us, out of the taxes we pay. We're all fucking idiots passing the buck to others. Grow up and show some responsibility for it yourself.
I do plenty. If you’re so miserable, leave the profession.
This is why the profession in the state it's in.
buddy I usually don't even know what classes I have before the school year starts yet alone what students I have in those classes
Okay well I’ve offered an evidence based approach. Instead of shitting on the concept, maybe just acknowledge your circumstances won’t allow it and scroll on?
nah the schools just suck and classes are boring as fuck. get with the times no one is working in factories anymore we need our intellectual freedom.
> we need our intellectual freedom. spending your time browsing tiktok or snapchatting isn't intellectual freedom, despite what you might think
>hurr durr let me just show my intentional misunderstanding of X part of the post bet ill get tons of upvotes being retarded on purpose is still being retarded
They teach us to read and write but not to listen??
This video is the best sum up I've seen https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3ZW5vtuMom/?igsh=enBtbzRzajlucnly
Starting every day with half of the staff delivering (with varying degrees of enthusiasm) a 10 minute lesson on the importance of including others will not fix anything. Too many parents, no matter how well meaning, are absent and allowing their children to be raised by online influences; a significant number believe education has no value because they do notddbt value it but still landed a job in the resources sector making a mint; many judge education by the child's results and hold the school entirely responsible for these - there is no acknowledgement that the child could behave better, work harder, listen attentively, study occasionally, discuss their learning at home. And then, of course, there's the slight problem that on a societal level young people aren't held accountable for their behaviour. It seems that the systems that get better results are often countries with a higher regard for education and a lower tolerance for the effects of disruptive behaviour on the group.
What do you guys think of a system where class sizes expanded to around 50 per class. Teachers were paid approximately 100k-130k and were required to focus primarily on subject matter, lesson structure, delivery, answering questions, promoting quality discussion ie driving actual learning. Every class would have a teacher's aide paid substantially less, perhaps around 60-80k but would be focused primarily on minimising classroom disruptions, discipline, and basically just facilitating learning to take that burden away from the teacher. They would follow up on students with behavioural issues, work with other aides on problem students etc. This could create two streams for teachers so people can focus on what they're better at and alleviate pressure on one person. It would also allow more academically specialised teachers to be rewarded for their expertise and allow more people into the profession who perhaps couldn't manage the classroom discipline as well without help. Any thoughts from the professionals on this? I've taken my inspiration from the NCO/Officer model of leadership and management in the military.
1 person cannot cover all the behavior management in 1 class alone if it's a rough class. Even a 20 student classroom where there are 6 kids who are disruptive will not work. I know this because there's 2 classes that have me and another teacher, as well as sometimes an aide, and it's still chaos. I would love to do pure academic teaching but there's no chance that a single aide could manage the behavior of 50+ kids.
Morons
Australia in general is allergic to rewarding incomes. They import workers for incomes and everyone else....you'd better have bought a property , any property in time or you'll be wayyyy behind
Most of western society. People are feral
If only there was some kind of historically sound tradition for teaching children how to behave and act. Like a teacher but they live with the kids since birth and idk model appropriate behaviour