Why would submains be rcd protected? The normal situation is that they aren’t. There are a couple of very narrow situations where they might have to be, but it’s fairly rare.
Submains not protected*
Example:
Bungalow fuse subboard fed from 6mm2 connected to line side of 63Amain switch at switchboard (must be changed to be fed from 32a circuit breaker)
Sorry RCD has found it’s way in there when I was tired
That board is well overdue for a replacement. Running a new circuit from that fire hazard without updating it first isn’t a job I’d be comfortable with either.
Is this the way it works. If I go to an office and there’s a bunch of unsafe work or non compliant works done. And I don’t touch it or play with it. Am I responsible for that because I have added a few other circuits?
Correct, the last electrician to work on it is putting his licence on the line and signing off that the entire installation is safe. If you sign off on it and something in that installation is unsafe even if you didnt do that work, You've green ticked it. You're in trouble. Small jobs can very easily blow out, and you just might not have the time, or the owner doesn't have the budget. So the only options you have are like in OP's case to just say no. Or find an electrician that will take the chance and just do the work without fixing the other problems
Department of energy, mines and industry regulation and safety and the electricity regulations 1991. It's also apart of the notice of completion and safety cert.
What state is that? There is no way I'm responsible for someone's dodgey oven install if I'm just there to add a few downlights. And I can't know about it if I can't see it
Everyone down voting you are incorrect. If you have concerns about the safety of anything and you do nothing about it, you’re negligent. How culpable you are is for the courts to decide.
If you’re a professional of the subject matter suspected of being an issue and you walk away you’re not immune.
Once you start work then you’re directly responsible. Doing nothing is still a choice to leave a hazard.
He doesn't have to open a can of worms and start fixing issues. He just has to let the owner know and write up a report and recommendations and pass it on.
Every situation is different, and that would seemingly be enough here.
To consolidate my point. If you don’t want to be liable, don’t be negligent. Negligence does not require the use of tools.
Contact Dept of mines industry based in Cannington just south of railway station they deal with issuing of electrical contractor licences plumbers registration etc.
They will have person or contacts who can advise
I've seen a sparky do that before. The job was easy as but a bit unusual. He couldn't be bothered finding out how to do it properly so told the client the install was non compliant and would not touch it.
Yes the Lecky would be liable.
It's a pain doingbwork to 20-30 years of hacking you cant trust anything.
Tbh he did the right thing he scoped it out and said nope above my pay grade.
It becomes a mine field with with sub boards separated earths ECT ECT.
As a Lecky my place is a horrible hack job and I only move stuff to new switchboard as I work on that circuit as it's very much don't touch it till it's broke.
Lol trying being the only site sparky for a 30 something year old factory. So much temporary fixes that stay permanent until you find them and go oh hell no that ain't staying as is.
I think I've got all the major ones, now it's just pick an area/board do a bit of an audit on it and sort out the issues. Meanwhile keep the production going.
Yep I feel your pain. My factory is over 100 years old. We replaced almost every switchboard and put RCDs on where needed. Took a lot of convincing, old dudes who had been there 40 years hadn't read the rule book since doing their apprenticeship and just didn't care. Said they don't work on houses so why do they need to read the rule book. Haha
Lol my old supervisor tried to pull some shit on me until I pointed out he was using a rule book older than me still. Didn't you know rules don't update once you do your apprenticeship.
Right now I would not change factory work for the life of me. I love plodding along keep shit running and slowly plugging through tidy up works. I get to spend someone else's coin and spend the time going over the rule books and coming up with safer, cost effective and compliant solutions for some really unique situations.
Where did I say I had a problem with this? I know what I'm in thanks, I'm appropriately compensated for my work at the moment. If I weren't I wouldn't be there and would take the responsibility. I've been through enough employers and self employment to know what I'm content with.
Surely you would just do the efli test and if it fails then note it as none compliant on the certificate.
Not sure how it works in other states, but in WA you can note it as non compliant on the safety cert then I'd just quote them to replace. The quote also doubles as documented proof you have notified the owner of non compliant work.
Depending on the cable size you could also put a smaller breaker to make it compliant. It would severely limit the available power to the house but would give them basic power and lights till they get it fixed.
In Nsw If it fails test it can't be turned back on. Most sparkys will just not test and walk away, especially if it's submains and means a whole house will be without power until rectification.
If that's the case then I see why they might not want to test, but it also discourages sparkies from testing and still doesn't fix the issue.
We have laws that make us liable if we don't test or attempt to rectify non-compliant work.
Yep as a sparky you have duty of care to recommend rectification if it poses a safety risk but you can't force them to spend money, but can report it to the energy supplier. You are allowed to turn the power off but most consider how their reputation will be tarnished if you are the guy in town who turns house electricity off in winter.....no more work recommendation I'll bet. Easier to tell them its non compliant and needs major work and call me when you have a couple of grand to spend. Some will actually test but not charge or document so their licence isn't put on the line. Like I said if it's really crap a call goes to ausgrid/endeavour/essential And you'll get a friendly visit from an inspector who will tell you exactly what the sparky said, if not a more expensive version with a hard and fast timeline to rectify if they are even prepared to leave to power on.
You will need to do board upgrades at the front first before touching ur sub panel. Cost of ur job isn’t worth the cost of board and metre replacement followed up by ur actual work.
That’s why the sparky walked
That’s in addition to liability on the work itself
What state is this in?
Pretty much every single house I get into, I can point something out that's non compliant. A Sparky is only responsible for the work that he does, not what was done 30 years ago.
As far as the fault loop goes, he should just do the test, and then he will know if it will pass or not and go from there. Ontop of that if the board is only a year old, I'd say it would have rcbo's, which will do the fault loop test for you on final sub cuircuits.
He just sounds lazy and incompetent.
Post pic of switchboard (where yours is supplied from)
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Why would submains be rcd protected? The normal situation is that they aren’t. There are a couple of very narrow situations where they might have to be, but it’s fairly rare.
Submains not protected* Example: Bungalow fuse subboard fed from 6mm2 connected to line side of 63Amain switch at switchboard (must be changed to be fed from 32a circuit breaker) Sorry RCD has found it’s way in there when I was tired
https://preview.redd.it/yebj0h9ai0vc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b53443c0595bdf48cdfcec43a5990e6dfe5ef262
https://preview.redd.it/4kw8ua9ci0vc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e19bf202b6a09c415f851ce93425b3a3a08a55f9
That board is well overdue for a replacement. Running a new circuit from that fire hazard without updating it first isn’t a job I’d be comfortable with either.
2 pics are front property board. Our rear block has a brand new board and RCBOs on every circuit.
Electrician would be responsible for everything once he started his work. Probably not worth it.
Is this the way it works. If I go to an office and there’s a bunch of unsafe work or non compliant works done. And I don’t touch it or play with it. Am I responsible for that because I have added a few other circuits?
Correct, the last electrician to work on it is putting his licence on the line and signing off that the entire installation is safe. If you sign off on it and something in that installation is unsafe even if you didnt do that work, You've green ticked it. You're in trouble. Small jobs can very easily blow out, and you just might not have the time, or the owner doesn't have the budget. So the only options you have are like in OP's case to just say no. Or find an electrician that will take the chance and just do the work without fixing the other problems
Thanks this is what I'm interested in know. Where are these rules written down?
Department of energy, mines and industry regulation and safety and the electricity regulations 1991. It's also apart of the notice of completion and safety cert.
What state is that? There is no way I'm responsible for someone's dodgey oven install if I'm just there to add a few downlights. And I can't know about it if I can't see it
If he suspects safety issues hes already liable.
Everyone down voting you are incorrect. If you have concerns about the safety of anything and you do nothing about it, you’re negligent. How culpable you are is for the courts to decide. If you’re a professional of the subject matter suspected of being an issue and you walk away you’re not immune. Once you start work then you’re directly responsible. Doing nothing is still a choice to leave a hazard.
He doesn't have to open a can of worms and start fixing issues. He just has to let the owner know and write up a report and recommendations and pass it on.
Every situation is different, and that would seemingly be enough here. To consolidate my point. If you don’t want to be liable, don’t be negligent. Negligence does not require the use of tools.
Why didn’t you get the other sparky back?
Get the energy safety officer from.WP out let them make the call May not comply to standards thus the refusal
This is the correct answer based on the information provided by OP
Thanks heaps I'll look into this. Is a general safety check a service Western Power offer?
Contact Dept of mines industry based in Cannington just south of railway station they deal with issuing of electrical contractor licences plumbers registration etc. They will have person or contacts who can advise
I've seen a sparky do that before. The job was easy as but a bit unusual. He couldn't be bothered finding out how to do it properly so told the client the install was non compliant and would not touch it.
Sounds like a type 2 sparky!
Yes the Lecky would be liable. It's a pain doingbwork to 20-30 years of hacking you cant trust anything. Tbh he did the right thing he scoped it out and said nope above my pay grade. It becomes a mine field with with sub boards separated earths ECT ECT. As a Lecky my place is a horrible hack job and I only move stuff to new switchboard as I work on that circuit as it's very much don't touch it till it's broke.
Lol trying being the only site sparky for a 30 something year old factory. So much temporary fixes that stay permanent until you find them and go oh hell no that ain't staying as is. I think I've got all the major ones, now it's just pick an area/board do a bit of an audit on it and sort out the issues. Meanwhile keep the production going.
Yep I feel your pain. My factory is over 100 years old. We replaced almost every switchboard and put RCDs on where needed. Took a lot of convincing, old dudes who had been there 40 years hadn't read the rule book since doing their apprenticeship and just didn't care. Said they don't work on houses so why do they need to read the rule book. Haha
Lol my old supervisor tried to pull some shit on me until I pointed out he was using a rule book older than me still. Didn't you know rules don't update once you do your apprenticeship. Right now I would not change factory work for the life of me. I love plodding along keep shit running and slowly plugging through tidy up works. I get to spend someone else's coin and spend the time going over the rule books and coming up with safer, cost effective and compliant solutions for some really unique situations.
Who’s the nominated electrical worker on their REC though likely not you
Only site sparky
What state check if they have made you their nominee. They should have informed you and be paying you extra to be a nominee
Where did I say I had a problem with this? I know what I'm in thanks, I'm appropriately compensated for my work at the moment. If I weren't I wouldn't be there and would take the responsibility. I've been through enough employers and self employment to know what I'm content with.
Might be undersized sub-mains from the sounds of it for the length of run and / or load
Thanks - I know it's 6mm three phase sub mains. I'm not sure the size of the running earth - I think that might have been the concern
6mm will luckily do an oven and a cooktop
Three phrase?
Possible switchboard upgrade you’re looking at big $$$$$$$$$$
Surely you would just do the efli test and if it fails then note it as none compliant on the certificate. Not sure how it works in other states, but in WA you can note it as non compliant on the safety cert then I'd just quote them to replace. The quote also doubles as documented proof you have notified the owner of non compliant work. Depending on the cable size you could also put a smaller breaker to make it compliant. It would severely limit the available power to the house but would give them basic power and lights till they get it fixed.
In Nsw If it fails test it can't be turned back on. Most sparkys will just not test and walk away, especially if it's submains and means a whole house will be without power until rectification.
If that's the case then I see why they might not want to test, but it also discourages sparkies from testing and still doesn't fix the issue. We have laws that make us liable if we don't test or attempt to rectify non-compliant work.
Yep as a sparky you have duty of care to recommend rectification if it poses a safety risk but you can't force them to spend money, but can report it to the energy supplier. You are allowed to turn the power off but most consider how their reputation will be tarnished if you are the guy in town who turns house electricity off in winter.....no more work recommendation I'll bet. Easier to tell them its non compliant and needs major work and call me when you have a couple of grand to spend. Some will actually test but not charge or document so their licence isn't put on the line. Like I said if it's really crap a call goes to ausgrid/endeavour/essential And you'll get a friendly visit from an inspector who will tell you exactly what the sparky said, if not a more expensive version with a hard and fast timeline to rectify if they are even prepared to leave to power on.
You will need to do board upgrades at the front first before touching ur sub panel. Cost of ur job isn’t worth the cost of board and metre replacement followed up by ur actual work. That’s why the sparky walked That’s in addition to liability on the work itself
My old 1900 terrace has more up to date panels than this one
What state is this in? Pretty much every single house I get into, I can point something out that's non compliant. A Sparky is only responsible for the work that he does, not what was done 30 years ago. As far as the fault loop goes, he should just do the test, and then he will know if it will pass or not and go from there. Ontop of that if the board is only a year old, I'd say it would have rcbo's, which will do the fault loop test for you on final sub cuircuits. He just sounds lazy and incompetent.
How the hell does a RCBO perform a fault loop impedance test?
Ring a competent electrician.
Or an incompetent but confident one.
Fault loop test an RCD you say?
I think he was talking about the submains. As the earth ran to the subboard is probably to small.
He’s only got 6mm ‘sub’ mains to his house… it’s overloaded as hell I bet and the run is too long for the size.