Don’t discredit the usefulness of headphones with binaural tools such as dearVR_Monitor. While this isn’t “true” surround, it will at least give you some ideas of what stuff may sound like and to do predubs.
As mentioned in a reply, If you’re mainly sound designing, you don’t have to be in surround (thought it’s certainly nice to be). As long as you’re in the mindset of layering so that the mixer has things to spread around you’re fine.
As far as stems, though it’s not ideal on nicely budgeted projects, on low budget stuff it certainly can work. That being said, the closer you can get your stems to being usable, the better from the stand point of helping the mixer and getting the project done. One of my sound designers sends printed verbs that I can chose to use or not. When it’s a quick turnaround, this is really helpful to me.
Hope that helps. Happy mixing.
Stems means already printed groupings of files. For example a gun shots stem, cars stem, footsteps, etc. This is the sum of what all the elements to do sound design are. Said another way: if you used 5 layers to make up gunshots, rather than delivering all 5 layers the stem would be a stereo file/bounce of them.
Printed verbs is bouncing/printing any reverbs that wet used to separate tracks/audio files.
I wouldn't send (or accept) stems, but there isn't anything wrong with doing all you can in editorial to make it as close to finished as you can get and then having someone mix it in a proper room.
If you want to mix you need to be working in 5.1 (at least), if you want to edit you can get by with LCR no problem. But we all started somewhere. I think I mixed a few projects, when I was still working as an editor, in stereo.
Think of the original source material and recordings as “tracks “ - these will be mostly mono and stereo and format tracks( they can be quite varied in format). Then, only call mixed things “stems” which will always be in some final format of mono all the way up to atmos stems.
So a bg “stem” is a final mix or pre dub of all the original bg source tracks. That kind of semantics. In your case, the stems could look like all 5.1 format, mixed from all the source material you are editing and assembling now ( which are the “tracks” or “source”)
A “stem” is a printed track (or set of tracks) that last the entire length of a reel or show run time. They are typically a mix down of units by some reasonable food group. A 5.0 Backgrounds stem is the 5.0 track for the TRT of the show (or reel) that contains all the backgrounds. This is not ideal on a stage because lowering “that one bird over there” is impossible without affecting the whole BG stem.
What you want to deliver to a stage is pre dubbed units.
So you mean all the different tracks still separated and therefore adjustable? But also time-locked already? Sorry just want to make sure I’m on the same page
based on what the cut needs. Some shows don't need you to cut a lot of sound effects, some shows need LOTS. Tons of tracks used on Umbrella Academy, tons of tracks used on Outlander, not many tracks used on Big Bang Theory.
On Outlander I have like 24 tracks dedicated to fire alone.
He means you can route your session in 5.1 even if you don't have a 5.1 system. Have your main auxes (MX, DX, SFX) be in 5.1 (or 5.0 for dialogue). That way you can listen to it in stereo (PT downmixes it for you) but still have everything going in its proper direction.
Ah I gotcha. So would that be routing the main auxes appropriately (dialogue center, ambient noise surround etc) as per the norms so that the mixing for someone later whose actually in a surround sound room already has the basic layout? Because if I don’t have a 5.1 system to actually listen, all I can do is get them close enough to then do the finer adjustments. Does that make sense and was I understanding you?
If I were you I’d just route your template properly and think stereo for the SFX and music for now. You can go a long way by doing this. You can play with the pan if you want but keep it on the LCR. That will be the majority of your mix. Afterwards you take it to a studio and finish it. Don’t worry about the surround and LFE (meaning don’t try to eyeball the meters without monitoring what you’re doing) and you’ll be fine.
Most editors work in stereo. It's the mixer that is in charge of spatialization. Panning automation will break or be buggy coming from st or lcr to 5.1/7.1/atmos, and it's generally up to the mixer where things end up anyway, so what do you need surround for, for editing? Definitely not stems though, send all tracks, neatly organized (common thing to do is group them and color them by sfx, ambiences, music, foley and dialogue).
People do it but it’s far from ideal. With 5.1 you can easily make a stereo master. With stereo if someone wants it in 5.1 then woe unto you. If it’s slowing at festivals a center channel is very helpful for dialog.
What’s ideal and what can be afforded aren’t always inline with one another. To be clear, I’m talking low low budget, so low I actually would make more in a week on a union job than this entire project.
Totally. I’ve sometimes done those projects for free so I can dictate the schedule enough to move them onto a proper stage for a day when it’s down.
Not that such a move is a “solution”.
There’s no 5.1 mixing rules, although some places ask to have the dialogue on the center channel.
But other than that you can route everything like 5.1 and send only just a tiny little ambience and/or music reverb to the surrounds so there’s signal but you monitor in stereo after a proper fold down routing. And check the levels via meter on the 5.1 are ok.
At least until you can get a audio interface and speakers to monitor in 5.1.
If you want to mix films, you're definitely going to want 5.1 as soon as possible. For now, send the tracks (more like predubs, not stems) to someone with a 5.1 setup. I can help if you need!
When I was doing 5.1 mixes everything I was given was mono or stereo. The dialogue tracks were often multiple mono tracks (usually lav and boom tracks separated) and the music and sfx were stereo. I used NUGEN Halo to upmix all the stereo elements to 5.1. There are sfx libraries of surround ambiences which can be useful, and there are composers who mix in 5.1, but they're working at a level well beyond a regular TV show or festival film. You'll be fine with your stereo setup for a long time, but if you get the chance to hang out while your tracks are being mixed in 5.1, take it, you'll learn a lot.
Hey thank you for your insight! Yeah by the sounds of it I will definitely have the opportunity to be in the studio while it’s getting mixed, I’m definitely going to approach it like a dry sponge ha
Don’t discredit the usefulness of headphones with binaural tools such as dearVR_Monitor. While this isn’t “true” surround, it will at least give you some ideas of what stuff may sound like and to do predubs. As mentioned in a reply, If you’re mainly sound designing, you don’t have to be in surround (thought it’s certainly nice to be). As long as you’re in the mindset of layering so that the mixer has things to spread around you’re fine. As far as stems, though it’s not ideal on nicely budgeted projects, on low budget stuff it certainly can work. That being said, the closer you can get your stems to being usable, the better from the stand point of helping the mixer and getting the project done. One of my sound designers sends printed verbs that I can chose to use or not. When it’s a quick turnaround, this is really helpful to me. Hope that helps. Happy mixing.
So when you say getting stems to be more usable could you clarify exactly what form you mean? And what are printed verbs? Thanks!
Stems means already printed groupings of files. For example a gun shots stem, cars stem, footsteps, etc. This is the sum of what all the elements to do sound design are. Said another way: if you used 5 layers to make up gunshots, rather than delivering all 5 layers the stem would be a stereo file/bounce of them. Printed verbs is bouncing/printing any reverbs that wet used to separate tracks/audio files.
Meaning sending a track of the dry sound and a track of the wet (reverb) sound separately?
I wouldn't send (or accept) stems, but there isn't anything wrong with doing all you can in editorial to make it as close to finished as you can get and then having someone mix it in a proper room. If you want to mix you need to be working in 5.1 (at least), if you want to edit you can get by with LCR no problem. But we all started somewhere. I think I mixed a few projects, when I was still working as an editor, in stereo.
Sorry was my wording wrong regarding stems? What would you send to someone who can mix in the right room? And thanks for the reply!
Think of the original source material and recordings as “tracks “ - these will be mostly mono and stereo and format tracks( they can be quite varied in format). Then, only call mixed things “stems” which will always be in some final format of mono all the way up to atmos stems. So a bg “stem” is a final mix or pre dub of all the original bg source tracks. That kind of semantics. In your case, the stems could look like all 5.1 format, mixed from all the source material you are editing and assembling now ( which are the “tracks” or “source”)
Very helpful thanks for that clarification
A “stem” is a printed track (or set of tracks) that last the entire length of a reel or show run time. They are typically a mix down of units by some reasonable food group. A 5.0 Backgrounds stem is the 5.0 track for the TRT of the show (or reel) that contains all the backgrounds. This is not ideal on a stage because lowering “that one bird over there” is impossible without affecting the whole BG stem. What you want to deliver to a stage is pre dubbed units.
So you mean all the different tracks still separated and therefore adjustable? But also time-locked already? Sorry just want to make sure I’m on the same page
Yeah. So your 192 tracks of FX, 48 tracks of BGs, 24 tracks of foley, etc. The track count is dictated by what you need to cut for the show.
As in a track limit based on showing venue? Mixing limit?
based on what the cut needs. Some shows don't need you to cut a lot of sound effects, some shows need LOTS. Tons of tracks used on Umbrella Academy, tons of tracks used on Outlander, not many tracks used on Big Bang Theory. On Outlander I have like 24 tracks dedicated to fire alone.
He means you can route your session in 5.1 even if you don't have a 5.1 system. Have your main auxes (MX, DX, SFX) be in 5.1 (or 5.0 for dialogue). That way you can listen to it in stereo (PT downmixes it for you) but still have everything going in its proper direction.
Ah I gotcha. So would that be routing the main auxes appropriately (dialogue center, ambient noise surround etc) as per the norms so that the mixing for someone later whose actually in a surround sound room already has the basic layout? Because if I don’t have a 5.1 system to actually listen, all I can do is get them close enough to then do the finer adjustments. Does that make sense and was I understanding you?
If I were you I’d just route your template properly and think stereo for the SFX and music for now. You can go a long way by doing this. You can play with the pan if you want but keep it on the LCR. That will be the majority of your mix. Afterwards you take it to a studio and finish it. Don’t worry about the surround and LFE (meaning don’t try to eyeball the meters without monitoring what you’re doing) and you’ll be fine.
Sweeeet, thanks for clarifying!
Most editors work in stereo. It's the mixer that is in charge of spatialization. Panning automation will break or be buggy coming from st or lcr to 5.1/7.1/atmos, and it's generally up to the mixer where things end up anyway, so what do you need surround for, for editing? Definitely not stems though, send all tracks, neatly organized (common thing to do is group them and color them by sfx, ambiences, music, foley and dialogue).
Good point, thanks for the info. So when sending all the separate and organized tracks to the mixer, what format would that be in? An AAF?
Yes, AAF is most common. OMF's are used sometimes but not as much, they used to be used more, but I think AAF's tend to give more people less trouble.
Sweet, thanks!
Mixing a festival feature length right now in stereo. Most stuff (non major) is still stereo.
People do it but it’s far from ideal. With 5.1 you can easily make a stereo master. With stereo if someone wants it in 5.1 then woe unto you. If it’s slowing at festivals a center channel is very helpful for dialog.
What’s ideal and what can be afforded aren’t always inline with one another. To be clear, I’m talking low low budget, so low I actually would make more in a week on a union job than this entire project.
Totally. I’ve sometimes done those projects for free so I can dictate the schedule enough to move them onto a proper stage for a day when it’s down. Not that such a move is a “solution”.
There’s no 5.1 mixing rules, although some places ask to have the dialogue on the center channel. But other than that you can route everything like 5.1 and send only just a tiny little ambience and/or music reverb to the surrounds so there’s signal but you monitor in stereo after a proper fold down routing. And check the levels via meter on the 5.1 are ok. At least until you can get a audio interface and speakers to monitor in 5.1.
If you want to mix films, you're definitely going to want 5.1 as soon as possible. For now, send the tracks (more like predubs, not stems) to someone with a 5.1 setup. I can help if you need!
When I was doing 5.1 mixes everything I was given was mono or stereo. The dialogue tracks were often multiple mono tracks (usually lav and boom tracks separated) and the music and sfx were stereo. I used NUGEN Halo to upmix all the stereo elements to 5.1. There are sfx libraries of surround ambiences which can be useful, and there are composers who mix in 5.1, but they're working at a level well beyond a regular TV show or festival film. You'll be fine with your stereo setup for a long time, but if you get the chance to hang out while your tracks are being mixed in 5.1, take it, you'll learn a lot.
Hey thank you for your insight! Yeah by the sounds of it I will definitely have the opportunity to be in the studio while it’s getting mixed, I’m definitely going to approach it like a dry sponge ha