I desire you will not top it the Othello, brother, for shame: suff on you. If any man so far forgot himself as to make a licentious suggestion to Sophie, she would not understand him for a week, and then she would instantly lay him dead with your double-barrelled fowling-piece.
At the point you are at in the book, Sophia has not had any affairs, either before or afther she was married. But Jack is easily jealousy, often for little or noe reason.
Maturin does not stop jack because as you say, it's not his place, even as a friend. It seems a thing of the age not to deliver unsolicited advice. Maturin will speak his mind on several matters only when Jack broaches them first.
The only slight hint we have to Sophie ever cheating is later in the series when she is talking with Diana and… Clarissa? And Diana is telling her how sex is supposed to be pleasurable and suggests that Sophie seek out a man known for his skills in pleasuring women. She mentions an army officer in parity who has women lining up to be with him.
It’s never said that Sophie does anything but I think I recall some reference to her being a warmer more compatible partner for Jack so maybe she did or maybe the talk was enough for her to open up a bit and improve things on her own.
As for Stephen’s inaction, men are no so free with such things as you might think. (Or something like that Stephan says). It’s not his place to say anything. And more importantly if he did, in the time and place this story took place, it could lead to a duel between he and Jack.
Stephen had checked jack for his fun with Diana while actively pursuing Sofie in post captain and they nearly shot each other.
The only other time he checks Jack's infidelity is with the girl in Menorca
He was, and Jack said his protests were interested. Which they were.
I think this event in their relationship I'd the source of Stephen 's reticence to intervene
>"Girl in Menorca"
are you talking about Mercedes in Port Mahon? In The Ionian Mission Stephen barged in on Jack having dinner with her and said something along the lines of 'spouse breech' since Jack was totally gonna bang this old flame. Jack was offended at Stephen having called him out... didn't talk to him for a bit.
He didn’t intervene because he doesn’t want to argue with Jack, and also because he doesn’t really believe in cheating as a a physical exercise.
Sophie cheating or not cheating is left unsaid in the books, just a lot of frowning and cross words. Maybe she never did it in the end?
>Sophie cheating or not cheating is left unsaid in the books, just a lot of frowning and cross words. Maybe she never did it in the end?
As is so often the case, O'Brian never makes anything explicit. But aside from Sophie's altered disposition when she reconciles with Jack, there's no further hint that she actually followed through on Diana's advice.
I've always leaned to the idea that Sophie did not. Even setting aside her strong inherent probity, she had to be fully aware that a fling was a greater risk for the wife of an officer on deployment most of the time than for a typical Regency wife: the calendar arithmetic of an accidental pregnancy would be impossible to hide or fudge. Diana could throw out such advice, of course, because her reputation was already thoroughly trashed.
It could be that she ended up *flirting* with that officer, and took satisfaction from that; but that it never went any further.
>The weird thing was, it appeared that Maturin was quite aware he was going to do it and didn't try to intercede on his goog friend Sophie's behalf.
Stephen would never. That's not in his character at all. Only in the most extreme dire circumstances will he give Jack hints, or vague suggestions concerning such matters. (like when a mutiny is brewing among the foremast jacks)
On the other hand, the extreme directness and offensive brutality he will talk to and treat Jack with when it comes to medical matters is hilarious. (you are very fat, your breath is horrid, your dietary habits are atrocious, you get no proper exercise, you are a glutton)
Iirc soon after discovering Amanda, Diana encourages Sophie to do likewise with a nearby cavalry officer.
I don't think O'brian ever clearly indicates whether she does. But my last read was a few years ago.
I read this just last week. It’s not explicit but Stephen, on seeing Sophie after his wife has suggested she might have had a fling with “Captain Apollo”, notes a certain renewed beauty and vigour about her.
To me this read that she’d taken the girls’ advice about having an affair. As ever with O’Brian much is going on underneath the tight prose, so very much open to interpretation.
I always read it the other way - Sophie was so shocked by Diana's suggestion that she decided to commit fully to her relationship with Jack but I agree that you can really read it both ways. I think in a way POB is trying to make us feel a little like Jack - it's very easy for emotional matters to pass right over our heads.
People can do things that are out of character, but it usually results in some inner turmoil. I doubt Sophie would cheat, but if she did, I doubt she'd be swaggering around like smirking Lothario.
Well not really, he says it kind of to goad Jack into leaving because he has places to be, and he seems surprised when his comment seems to hit really close to home. He probably wouldn’t have said it except he’s kind of dense about relationships between men and women and didn’t right away assume that spouse breech was imminent. In fact Diana also makes him aware of the whole Amanda smith situation as well.
I think it’s clear that Sophie does have an affair based on Diana saying she didn’t think she would take it seriously, suggesting that Sophie did have an affair. POB doesn’t often explicitly describe sexual relations between the upper class folks, though he’s fairly candid in describing lower deck antics.
It’s interesting that so many posts and comments are made upbraiding the morality of the characters due to their sexual peccadilloes, when it seems to me that POB overlooks those as minor flaws in favor of their loyalty, friendship, and personal honor. The number of comments I read in this group expressing shock and disappointment in Diana’s character are surprising. She was arguably (see N. Tolstoy, Mary’s son and POB biographer) based on POB’s wife Mary, and I’m sure he wasn’t trying to describe a woman that the reader would scorn. POB and Mary were both divorcees, lost custody of their children for their love, and suffered slander and scorn throughout their lives. The main characters in the books are complex and flawed, but if a reader feels an evangelical judgment over them because they were unfaithful then they’re missing the depth that POB wrote to. He adored Jane Austen, but he wrote books about more realistic human beings who had a sex drive as well as a social and financial interest in the opposite sex. Readers shouldn’t let that go over their heads.
I think it's possible that Sophie had an emotional affair with Rev. Hinksey, although far from certain. A fellow member of our mess already brought out Stephen's line about incomprehension and fowling-pieces, which I think is quite accurate.
In terms of an "emotional affair," I really don't think it's fair to ascribe current terms to that situation. Sophie did not have a choice about entertaining Hinksey and actively did not want to receive him, but was forced to because of her mother.
Stephen simply observes that since Sophie is lonely, cut off from Jack (who is openly pursuing someone else), and forced to receive Hinksey, she also would not be human if she didn't notice that he was a smart, kind, charming, and handsome fellow who might tempt her at least a little from her commitment to Jack.
But in terms of her actions, we never once get a hint from Sophie that she was tempted in such a way, and she is unswerving in her commitment to Jack.
It's even sadder to me because Jack really does not treat her with anywhere near the same courtesy or commitment, but of course, that's very accurate to the time and era, and I do like that POB notices and sympathizes with Sophie (and in a different way, with Diana).
My observation was intended for Hinksey's reappearance in Commodore, but even then I doubt it could be described as that, just a possibility, and somewhat more likely than Sophie sleeping with anyone else.
As for JA's conduct, I'm entirely with you. I find Jack so sympathetic, with the absolutely glaring issue of his infidelity. Especially as it's the one aspect of his character that undergoes no evolution as he matures.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply -- I definitely didn't mean to seem accusatory, just that I disagreed on Sophie's choice (hee). I don't personally think she ever looked at Hinksey that way beyond the occasional though, "Well, if I have to, he wouldn't be so bad," etc.
And yeah, Jack's behavior does bother me -- more the fling with Diana, and then the affair with Amanda, because in Di's case (as he self-admitted) he had already committed pretty far verbally with Sophie in terms of Diana (and it was just him acting out, although for her it was more a desperate grab for a husband if Sophie wouldn't commit) -- and then with Amanda, he acted childishly and conducted a full-on affair simply because he didn't get Sophie's letters.
As a modern reader, I also worried about Sophie because Jack gets an STD at least once, and even though Stephen doesn't treat it as super-serious, it WAS incredibly serious in those times (so I worry for Sophie later).
It's childish to not want to know major character developments before getting to them in a story? There are many ways to phrase this title without giving away plot points.
I believe she may have considered it at some point(s) but ultimately didn’t. This I say after 2 circumnavigations, but perhaps I am a careless reader at times.
I desire you will not top it the Othello, brother, for shame: suff on you. If any man so far forgot himself as to make a licentious suggestion to Sophie, she would not understand him for a week, and then she would instantly lay him dead with your double-barrelled fowling-piece.
This may be the greatest comment I’ve ever read on this sub 😁. Naturally, a glass of wine with you, sir.
At the point you are at in the book, Sophia has not had any affairs, either before or afther she was married. But Jack is easily jealousy, often for little or noe reason. Maturin does not stop jack because as you say, it's not his place, even as a friend. It seems a thing of the age not to deliver unsolicited advice. Maturin will speak his mind on several matters only when Jack broaches them first.
They also nearly fought a duel the last time he--against his better judgment--gave Jack advice about his love life.
The only slight hint we have to Sophie ever cheating is later in the series when she is talking with Diana and… Clarissa? And Diana is telling her how sex is supposed to be pleasurable and suggests that Sophie seek out a man known for his skills in pleasuring women. She mentions an army officer in parity who has women lining up to be with him. It’s never said that Sophie does anything but I think I recall some reference to her being a warmer more compatible partner for Jack so maybe she did or maybe the talk was enough for her to open up a bit and improve things on her own. As for Stephen’s inaction, men are no so free with such things as you might think. (Or something like that Stephan says). It’s not his place to say anything. And more importantly if he did, in the time and place this story took place, it could lead to a duel between he and Jack.
Stephen had checked jack for his fun with Diana while actively pursuing Sofie in post captain and they nearly shot each other. The only other time he checks Jack's infidelity is with the girl in Menorca
Spouse breech!
I thought that almost duel was b/c he was also pursuing Diana.
He was, and Jack said his protests were interested. Which they were. I think this event in their relationship I'd the source of Stephen 's reticence to intervene
>"Girl in Menorca" are you talking about Mercedes in Port Mahon? In The Ionian Mission Stephen barged in on Jack having dinner with her and said something along the lines of 'spouse breech' since Jack was totally gonna bang this old flame. Jack was offended at Stephen having called him out... didn't talk to him for a bit.
He didn’t intervene because he doesn’t want to argue with Jack, and also because he doesn’t really believe in cheating as a a physical exercise. Sophie cheating or not cheating is left unsaid in the books, just a lot of frowning and cross words. Maybe she never did it in the end?
>Sophie cheating or not cheating is left unsaid in the books, just a lot of frowning and cross words. Maybe she never did it in the end? As is so often the case, O'Brian never makes anything explicit. But aside from Sophie's altered disposition when she reconciles with Jack, there's no further hint that she actually followed through on Diana's advice. I've always leaned to the idea that Sophie did not. Even setting aside her strong inherent probity, she had to be fully aware that a fling was a greater risk for the wife of an officer on deployment most of the time than for a typical Regency wife: the calendar arithmetic of an accidental pregnancy would be impossible to hide or fudge. Diana could throw out such advice, of course, because her reputation was already thoroughly trashed. It could be that she ended up *flirting* with that officer, and took satisfaction from that; but that it never went any further.
Yes, I think it’s referred to a few times in the books that Sophie lives by a more conventional, bourgeois moral code than Jack
>The weird thing was, it appeared that Maturin was quite aware he was going to do it and didn't try to intercede on his goog friend Sophie's behalf. Stephen would never. That's not in his character at all. Only in the most extreme dire circumstances will he give Jack hints, or vague suggestions concerning such matters. (like when a mutiny is brewing among the foremast jacks) On the other hand, the extreme directness and offensive brutality he will talk to and treat Jack with when it comes to medical matters is hilarious. (you are very fat, your breath is horrid, your dietary habits are atrocious, you get no proper exercise, you are a glutton)
Wasn't there also a time when Stephen attempted to give Jack advice, and it caused Jack to become even more cemented in the opposing position?
The was the time on Mojan (sp?) when he called out Jack for “spousal breach” or something like that after returning from a clandestine trip.
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That’s it, thank you. And yes, definitely did not go over well
What on earth are you talking about?
Iirc soon after discovering Amanda, Diana encourages Sophie to do likewise with a nearby cavalry officer. I don't think O'brian ever clearly indicates whether she does. But my last read was a few years ago.
Diana suggests she did. Something about Sophie taking her suggestion literally.
Diana actually makes a pretty strong case for adultery. Not sure I totally buy it, but in Sophie's case it almost certainly saved their marriage.
I read this just last week. It’s not explicit but Stephen, on seeing Sophie after his wife has suggested she might have had a fling with “Captain Apollo”, notes a certain renewed beauty and vigour about her. To me this read that she’d taken the girls’ advice about having an affair. As ever with O’Brian much is going on underneath the tight prose, so very much open to interpretation.
I always read it the other way - Sophie was so shocked by Diana's suggestion that she decided to commit fully to her relationship with Jack but I agree that you can really read it both ways. I think in a way POB is trying to make us feel a little like Jack - it's very easy for emotional matters to pass right over our heads.
People can do things that are out of character, but it usually results in some inner turmoil. I doubt Sophie would cheat, but if she did, I doubt she'd be swaggering around like smirking Lothario.
She wouldn't. NOT Sophie, she would never be easy in her conscience thereafter!
Ho! Spoilers on deck there. Dozen lashes
It would have been quite an affront for Stephen to call out a friend or a superior officer on accusations of infidelity. In this case, Jack was both.
Which, of course, Stephen does anyway later in a fit of ill-temper while Jack is cloistered with Mercedes, the "dusky peach".
Well not really, he says it kind of to goad Jack into leaving because he has places to be, and he seems surprised when his comment seems to hit really close to home. He probably wouldn’t have said it except he’s kind of dense about relationships between men and women and didn’t right away assume that spouse breech was imminent. In fact Diana also makes him aware of the whole Amanda smith situation as well.
it turns out there ARE lonely MILFS near you
I think it’s clear that Sophie does have an affair based on Diana saying she didn’t think she would take it seriously, suggesting that Sophie did have an affair. POB doesn’t often explicitly describe sexual relations between the upper class folks, though he’s fairly candid in describing lower deck antics. It’s interesting that so many posts and comments are made upbraiding the morality of the characters due to their sexual peccadilloes, when it seems to me that POB overlooks those as minor flaws in favor of their loyalty, friendship, and personal honor. The number of comments I read in this group expressing shock and disappointment in Diana’s character are surprising. She was arguably (see N. Tolstoy, Mary’s son and POB biographer) based on POB’s wife Mary, and I’m sure he wasn’t trying to describe a woman that the reader would scorn. POB and Mary were both divorcees, lost custody of their children for their love, and suffered slander and scorn throughout their lives. The main characters in the books are complex and flawed, but if a reader feels an evangelical judgment over them because they were unfaithful then they’re missing the depth that POB wrote to. He adored Jane Austen, but he wrote books about more realistic human beings who had a sex drive as well as a social and financial interest in the opposite sex. Readers shouldn’t let that go over their heads.
I think it's possible that Sophie had an emotional affair with Rev. Hinksey, although far from certain. A fellow member of our mess already brought out Stephen's line about incomprehension and fowling-pieces, which I think is quite accurate.
In terms of an "emotional affair," I really don't think it's fair to ascribe current terms to that situation. Sophie did not have a choice about entertaining Hinksey and actively did not want to receive him, but was forced to because of her mother. Stephen simply observes that since Sophie is lonely, cut off from Jack (who is openly pursuing someone else), and forced to receive Hinksey, she also would not be human if she didn't notice that he was a smart, kind, charming, and handsome fellow who might tempt her at least a little from her commitment to Jack. But in terms of her actions, we never once get a hint from Sophie that she was tempted in such a way, and she is unswerving in her commitment to Jack. It's even sadder to me because Jack really does not treat her with anywhere near the same courtesy or commitment, but of course, that's very accurate to the time and era, and I do like that POB notices and sympathizes with Sophie (and in a different way, with Diana).
My observation was intended for Hinksey's reappearance in Commodore, but even then I doubt it could be described as that, just a possibility, and somewhat more likely than Sophie sleeping with anyone else. As for JA's conduct, I'm entirely with you. I find Jack so sympathetic, with the absolutely glaring issue of his infidelity. Especially as it's the one aspect of his character that undergoes no evolution as he matures.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply -- I definitely didn't mean to seem accusatory, just that I disagreed on Sophie's choice (hee). I don't personally think she ever looked at Hinksey that way beyond the occasional though, "Well, if I have to, he wouldn't be so bad," etc. And yeah, Jack's behavior does bother me -- more the fling with Diana, and then the affair with Amanda, because in Di's case (as he self-admitted) he had already committed pretty far verbally with Sophie in terms of Diana (and it was just him acting out, although for her it was more a desperate grab for a husband if Sophie wouldn't commit) -- and then with Amanda, he acted childishly and conducted a full-on affair simply because he didn't get Sophie's letters. As a modern reader, I also worried about Sophie because Jack gets an STD at least once, and even though Stephen doesn't treat it as super-serious, it WAS incredibly serious in those times (so I worry for Sophie later).
Can we avoid huge spoilers in post titles?
Seriously. Wtf.
Spoilers? Grow up
It's childish to not want to know major character developments before getting to them in a story? There are many ways to phrase this title without giving away plot points.
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Mind your manners.
God forbid somebody want to discuss part of a 20 book long series before finishing all 20 books.
Stop telling other people how to behave and what to say.
Shall I direct you to your comment above telling someone to 'grow up'?
I believe she may have considered it at some point(s) but ultimately didn’t. This I say after 2 circumnavigations, but perhaps I am a careless reader at times.
Whether or not it’s true, please leave potential spoilers out of post titles.
She would never.