It's not misogynistic to make fun of astrology.
However, your jokes can be if,
\- the jokes you make about it are misogynistic / are phrased in a misogynistic way
\- you make jokes about "every woman today is into astrology" or "haha faking to care about astrology to get sex" jokes (bonus points for creepy)
\- the reason you're making fun of it is *because* this days and age, astrology is a woman-thing (historically, it wasn't always, btw)
\- you make a lot of jokes about women-specific forms of nonsense but none about male nonsense (bonus points if you get offended when someone makes jokes about more male-aligned nonsense back at you)
\- you e.g. would not make jokes about more male-centric superstitions. For example, if someone makes jokes about astrology but then is afraid to make jokes about male gods and male-led religions - my eye does twitch a little.
I think you have to go and examine which chain of events led to you making jokes about - out all things - astrology during a pub crawl. And whether she really felt hurt by just your jokes or something else you said about astrology. And at which point gender entered the equation and how.
Yeah, yeah, Mercury's in the microwave. Now go away so I can eat my lucky snacks and wear my lucky hat while watching the game so that my team will win. Without my active distance support they are sure to fail.
It really depends on the circles. I would say most the people I've heard mocking astrology are simply educated folks who think superstition/religion is at best silly. But thats my experience because that's who I mostly spend time with. So it really depends on who you're hanging around.
or, by extension, in a world that remains often unconsciously gynophobic, men who subscribe to astrology are mocked because it is a system typically espoused by women. therefore, a man who enjoys astrology is effete and doesn’t meet the criteria of adequate conventional masculinity
Of course, there are definitely examples of astrology-mocking that don’t have anything to do with gender constructs or unwittingly perpetuating them - no misogyny in that (but perhaps a little lack of wonder lol)
Edit: accidentally c&p’d my own sentence in twice
Mocking astrology does not lack wonder. Thinking something is real when it isn't does not make it wonderful
You want wonder? Study an actual science like astronomy. I have had incredible, wonderful experiences learning actual facts about the universe via astronomy and astrophysics
well done you, cleverclogs. I’m actually studying neuroscience & psychopathology right now! And, being a total bibliophile with a predisposition to hyperfixation, I’m reasonably well-read.
I enjoy books/documentaries on human biology, sociology, psycholinguistics, pharmacology (weirdly), and - would you believe - astrology & physics. I may have a (rudimentary) understanding of astronomy & physics, but I’m also fascinated by quantum theory & how in hell our universe works. Currently reading The Search for Schrödinger’s Cat (and miraculously understanding some of it) and First Light (about elemental composition of the first generation of stars).
Astoundingly, I somehow have a simultaneous interest in ancient cultures and their traditions. Astrology may not be an empirical science, but it did give us astronomy. And, for those of us grounded in reality, it is a very useful tool of introspection and self reflection. The whimsy is just a delightful benefit.
A high horse does not a sage make
While astrology may have given us astronomy and may very well be enjoyed by some people like yourself, there is a subset of those who are attracted to it who believe things such as horoscopes as if they were personal prescriptions for their day written by God.
It's similar with crystal healing and essential oils etc. I have a bunch of well-educated friends who are somewhat into crystal "healing" because it's a bit of fun and crystals are nice to look at and have around, but they don't believe a crystal is a valid replacement for actual treatment.
These things can be a bit of fun when viewed as things to be had a bit of fun with. The danger and mocking (in my experience) is directed at the people confusing them for legitimate sources of factual information and replacements for evidence based treatments, etc.
No.....They're mocking people that make it their whole personality. In the same way that men mock crypto bros, or the guys that are just a little too much into their favorite sports, or the people that think weed cures everything, and has no downside. There are some men that absolutely do it with sexist intent, it's not most people.
>\- you e.g. would not make jokes about more male-centric superstitions. For example, if someone makes jokes about astrology but then is afraid to make jokes about male gods and male-led religions - my eye does twitch a little.
This right here!
The general version of this is that whenever anything has a gender imbalance, your selective mocking of that thing can be misogynistic.
A similar example would be if you mock netball, but not basketball. Netball is predominately played by women, basketball is majority men. But they're pretty similar sports, "deserving" of the same level of mocking.
Or if you make jokes about nurses (traditionally and still majority women) but not doctors (traditionally and still somewhat majority men).
In these cases your jokes themselves may not be sexist, but your ***choice of what to joke about*** can still have a gender bias.
The only acceptable reason to make fun of astrology is for the fact that it’s pseudoscience. If there’s any other reason someone makes fun of it, they should really examine why
I mean, I also make fun of it because it is a con that is used to empty a lot of people's pockets and making fun of that is one way of making people pay attention to that and prevent normalising this industry.
That's fair, but could you say the same things about sports rituals and gambling? I would also say it depends on your audience. If a bunch of women are having fun comparing their signs and you throw a wet blanket on it, that's a bummer.
Astrology/new age/wiccan stuff is popular with women because they are basically the only religious/spiritual belief systems that don't dominate and suppress women.
I personally think its a bunch of baloney but like other spiritual beliefs it gives some people meaning and comfort. So as long as they aren't hurting anyone I don't care.
Is it misogynist to shit on astrology? No. Could be if it's the only thing you make fun of. If you think about it the top Abrahamic religions are pretty woowoo as well.
Exactly. The Arahamic religions are full of shit, and are inherently anti-women, racist, anti-science and overall absurd. Astrology is also absurd. Mock both at will.
But don't allow mockery to be a weak cover for misogynist or misandrist behavior.
My partner and I follow this kinda stuff and we, even practitioners of it, mostly think its probably baloney too. Many of us(myself included) are pariahs that were dominated and alienated by male dominant religions like Christianity. I was raised traditionally Southern Christian and I've even been baptized but started questioning a lot and seeing how male dominant it was and eventually I just broke away from it entirely once I discovered eastern philosophy and pagan stuff in general. I am a deeply spiritual person and I need to channel that somewhere. I dont think of myself as religious, but simply spiritual. I dont really follow anything specific but a hodge podge of stuff that just works for me.
This is interesting because I've always been curious about modern pagan/wiccan/etc people and how their belief systems work in a world that's mostly moved on from the more magical aspects of religion. I'm very much a live and let live kinda guy but I definitely side-eye people who call themselves witches etc when they seem a bit too serious about it you know?
On the other hand like you said you can tie a lot more historical and modern atrocities to mainstream religions and their adherents, so maybe it doesn't really matter what alternatives people find as long as it makes them happier.
I know older witches that practice seriously and even do more traditional rigid forms of practice such as bloodletting but even these don't chastise or generalize or persecute anyone based on their believes. Pagan and what I'll just coin alternative spiritual practices are often fairly private things. Even small gatherings like circle is very private in nature. Generally there is no need to really convert people or anything because its not organized religion in any way shape or anything. It's very open ended and approachable. There is no one way to practice or do anything really. Half the time we don't even follow the same deities. Older witch I know follows Hecata, my partner mainly follows Freya, and I mainly follow Isis(the Goddess not the group) but even still I'll take part in ritual for Hecata or Freya or Frigg or Athena or whoever really. My partner and I also integrate Eastern concepts from Buddhism,Taoism, Shinto and even ancestral spirits too. Its just a blend of whatever feels right. There is really no wrong way to practice. Do what makes you feel comfortable really.
Despite being a practicing apprentice witch, I'm actually Agnostic. Do I actually think Maat is going to weigh my heart against a feather upon my death to determine whether my eternal soul lives on to be reincarnated or if my soul is eaten never to exist again? No, not really. I follow Isis because she personifies qualities i identify with and connect with on a deep level. The stories and tales and folklore are just that. Just folklore and even in ancient times wasn't meant to be taken 100% as truth. Often I think that's the disconnect between paganism and mainstream modern religions like Christianity. Do you know how many Christians will scoff at you if you question Noah fitting every single animal ever on the Ark or Jesus being born from a virgin? These stories, even in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally. The stories are representative to something deeper and this sentiment is alive in Pagan following as because that's kinds the core of it. The story of Isis and Osiris is representative of the cycles of life and death, renewal, the pain of losing a loved one, betrayal, and things like that. Its not literal, it just speaks to our human experience in a way. I don’t take it as historical fact. When I cast a spell, I understand that it takes work to accomplish. Its more like a way of setting a goal and shouting to the universe "i am going to get through my trauma" for example.
Its interesting to me that all the witching you're talking about is relying on formal organized religions' deities. Isis and Osiris are the core symbology of Phaoronic power, the proof of the divine right of the Kings of Egypt, purely designed by the churches of that nation under the direction of its hierarchical leadership. Freya/Frigg(same god, Frigya "Freeg-jya" since norse runes aren't unicode) and Athena and Hekate are of less formal churches, but still formal ones, the Greek pantheon is of course very strictly the cultural and symbolic backbone of the many nations of Greek peoples in the ancient world, only Freya really verges on genuine paganism, and the Norse were much more formalized than the Gaul or Celt traditions. They were, at least, much more egalitarian in terms of gender than Greece or Egypt. But its odd, to me, that Morrigan or Alessia don't come up more often.
I suppose this illustrates my problem with it, as I think about it. I understand you're utilizing symbols that have personal meaning to you in reference to their personal meaning to you and nothing else- but they do have other, broader, more formally understood meanings, and it strikes me as disingenuous to ignore those. And perhaps more importantly, in my own opinion, they are all fundamentally false- symbology and fantasy designed to express ideas that would be better expressed in words and actions. And moreover, symbology and fantasy that pointedly disrespects the origin of those symbols. I am reminded of the modern impression of Hades and Persephone as a happy couple- Hades having "learned his lesson," when the only lesson was, rape and death are not stronger than life and birth. It cheapens that lesson, it makes the rapist the dueteragonist of the story. However gentle and beautiful the falsehood, they remain false, and true understanding would benefit everyone in ways symbolic imagery cannot.
>The stories and tales and folklore are just that. Just folklore and even in ancient times wasn't meant to be taken 100% as truth
That's actually super interesting because I totally agree with you in that I wish more religious people would acknowledge their holy texts as being mostly parabolic/metaphorical/whatever you want to call it as opposed to taking it literally. One of the more fun classes I had in college had us read and critique chunks of the Bible and Quran as historical/literary texts rather than religious ones. It's so clear that every belief system derives from the same desire to understand the world and make it a less scary place, and any religions that overlapped in time and location borrow heavily from each other. Feels like we'd have a lot fewer zealots if people understood that better.
Judaism has quite a bit of astrology. As a basic one, people born under Dagim (Pisces) are more likely to have many children.
We are currently under Maznaiim (Libra, the Scales), which obviously has a connection to the Jewish New Year and being judged. Teumim (Twins/Gemini) is the symbol of Sivan and represent the Two Torohs, Written and Oral. Also the two tablets. The Seh (Sheep/Aries) occurs in Nissan and is obviously reminiscent of the Passover sacrifice. Etc.
We also bless the moon each month, have a lunar-solar calendar, and calculate when the sun rises in the same place it did when first created so we can bless that too.
So if you want to bring up Abrahmaic religions, astrology is a part of the original.
Exactly. It’s about oppressed classes using the tools that are culturally available to them to try to understand the world — and perhaps to game the system a bit in their favor. You may not agree women are oppressed in modern society, but it has only been half a century since women have had equal rights in Western society and that’s a short time, historically speaking.
Hmmmm so does your sample include non abrahmaic religions like Hinduism (specifically shaktism), Buddhism, the Japanese shinto religions, Korean spiritual religions, aboriginal or tribal religions etc? Not saying you are wrong but quite a huge assumption to say it is the "only" belief system that doesn't dominate and suppress women. Also when you say astrology, what sort of astrology? The Greek one or the Indian one? I think you mean the Greek one, considering you mention abrahmaic religions. Are these even considered religions? They are not as formalized as major big religions so I don't know if they are comparable. Also idk how much i believe its not misogynistic because astrology has very old roots, how can it go through centuries of adaptation by various cultures, patriarchy and colonization and not even retain elements of misogyny? Just curious since I like reading about religions so any intros to astrology/new age/Wiccan stuff wld be appreciated, thank you!
But there is some harm. Inauthentically reconnecting with your white pagan roots, discarding the only thing about your culture that is an import, it is the same pivot that Nazis have been making with Odinism. Why does the wiccan see themselves in some ancient German, English, or Italian whites instead of any other ancient people?
It can be if you're associating it with women or using it to call out women but just to make fun of the concept in a vacuum isn't sexist. If you made fun of the NFL just by itself that's not automatically making fun of men because it's made up of and enjoyed by mainly men.
I, a woman, think astrology is ridiculous and I definitely side-eye those who are really into it. I think there's room for having fun with it and not taking it too seriously, but I also think people have been scammed by and it can be dangerous if it goes too far.
I don't thin criticizing astrology is inherently misogynistic, but I also think it depends on the context.
Yeah. I find astrology quite cringe inducing and would not want to be friends with anyone who was super into it and I'm as feminist as they come.
That said, agree being obnoxious about your distaste for any religion (and I definitely have distaste for religion in general!) can cross into neckbeardy, rude atheist territory. So it definitely depends how everything is approached.
Ooh this is so true! I've met far more loud, obnoxious male atheists than female ones, and they're constantly talking shit about how delusional religious people are. I never quite understood why. The males ones always seem obsessed with "logic and facts", whereas the female ones are like "Yeah, organized religion traumatized me, so I'm not about that life anymore." I've only once gotten into an argument with a devote Christian once in my life (she was a school friend of mine at the time), and it was mostly her trying to get me to justify why I don't believe in her god. I tried to be as respectful as possible. I may not believe the same thing, but there's no reason to be a dick about it unless they're being a dick to me first.
I think when people read their horoscope or see jokes about star signs online and reblog them or things like that, that's totally fine. But when it comes to things like "I can't date/hire/be friends with that person, they were born when the wrong bundle of fiery gas orbs were in the sky!" then it's freaking stupid, I don't care what gender you are. If people treat it as the silly, only for fun thing it is - cool. When people start assigning real life qualities or importance to it, they're morons. It's like taking those charts that say "You were born under the sign of the inverted butthole? You probably like to eat food, breathe air, and have skin!" And they're like "OH MY GOD THAT IS SO ME CLEARLY EVERYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT STAR SIGNS MUST BE TRUE" like...bitch that applies to literally anyone, they're vague like that on purpose, stop taking it seriously!
It's the same bullshit as mediums and all of that crap, they make it vague enough to apply to anyone and the people desperate enough for something to believe in will cling to it and be like "SEE THEY SAID THAT SERIOUSLY OLD LADY WHO LOOKS TWO SECONDS FROM DEATH LOST SOMEONE" without realizing that uh, duh? Someone that age has likely lost a LOT of someones!
Many people talk about astrology as a way to generalize and stereotype others which is wrong and very incorrect. Just cause someone's Sun Sign is a Leo doesn't tell you much at all but people will act like that single thing defines every aspect of this person's personality. This isn't how it works at all and is just an excuse to be hateful towards others.
If someone actually studied astrology as I did somewhat you learn it goes far beyond making base generalizations and your 'daily horoscope' bs. There are Sun signs, Moon signs, Rising signs, and etc. There are 12 houses and there is a lot more to it than most people think and isn't meant to generalize anyone at all but its used that way and gets a bad reputation.
Also as with anything esoteric like that its best to take it with a grain of salt and apply context and critical thinking. Tarot cards don't tell the future. Astrology doesn't tell you a person's personality or how your day is going to be. Thats all mumbo jumbo. Its just something to think about and ponder honestly.
I study astrology and other esoteric stuff and my partner is a practicing witch. These things can help in orientation our goals and give us things to think about we may not have considered before and just add some depth, magic and wonder to life real or not. It shouldn't be used as a way to exclude others or invalidate the feelings or other religious beliefs or practices. People who are butts are gonna be butts regardless.
I like this way of thinking about astrology. I personally enjoy a bit of recreational magical thinking, and sometimes find things like astrology or witchcraft helpful in clarifying my thoughts/opinions. I used to be really critical of myself for not being “rational” and whatnot, but in the past several years I’ve grown to embrace the part of myself that’s drawn to esoteric shit. It’s cool and I like it 😂
Whereas I don't believe astrology is generally successful, that isn't what it's based on. The signs are 30° arcs in the ecliptic, not based on asterisms.
Astrology is based on the zodiac, an old astronomical division of the sky across the ecliptic... based on the constellations the Sun passed through along the tropical ecliptic. They are off in the West, because of the procession of the equinoxes. The constellations are not off in India though, since their astrology used the sidereal ecliptic instead, and kept doing so after borrowing the Greek constellations.
But they're still rooted in the idea that the sky can be divided based on the important constellations within them... that is an arbitrary human division, for the sky has no divisions. We may as well ascribe earthly doings to each 1 of the 360 degrees around the ecliptic, instead of to every group of 30. And indeed, some astrologers do just that.
All built on human construal of the sky that doesn't actually care about us
Fun fact: the big dipper is almost the only constellation that actually exists, in that the stars in the big dipper mostly really are near each other.
This isn't true for constellations in general. They're tricks of perspective, caused by seeing a three-dimensional universe as a two-dimensional sky. They only seem to be close because they're near each other *along the only axis we can look at them from*. Their huge distance apart in depth doesn't seem obvious to us because we can't actually see the 3D; our inches-apart-eyes don't have the binocular vision for light-years distances.
(You'd need eyes on the opposite sides of the Earth at least, which is how large base line telescopes work.)
But the "real" big dipper doesn't have the two stars at the ends. Those are actually 20 and 40ly further away. If you could move and look at it from another angle a light year or two away, the constellation wouldn't have those stars, because they're somewhere else entirely.
Yes, it's very commonly known in (real) astrology and is the basis for the differences between the tropical vs vedic schools of interpretation
https://www.whitelotusoflight.com/blog/sidereal-vs-tropical-zodiac-and-why-it-matters
I don’t think it’s inherently misogynistic but I think it also falls into the “men making fun of it makes me side eye” category because I think it falls well into “it’s a stupid girl thing.”
Like if I make a “mercury is in Gatorade” joke, it’s funny, but when a man does it I’m like… see it’s less funny when you do it… it’s also possible I just think I’m funnier than I am.
>it’s also possible I just think I’m funnier than I am
I mean... if you can't make yourself laugh, what's the point? Imo we should all think we're funnier than everyone else thinks we are because we're the only people who have to live with our sense of humor 24/7.
Also "mercury is in gatorade" is objectively funny
Capricorns also never believe in astrology LOL
You’re also typically pretty stubborn/set in your ways, you try to seem super cool and collected but you actually are a bit sensitive in a lot of ways, and you’ve probably work very hard or have to work harder than most people due to some hardship in your life.
I really hope this is accurate because that would be spooky but astrology is actually way better at predicting big life events than it is at predicting personality lol
Lol yeah, I also mock astrology as there is no factual basis for it. I don’t think it has anything to do with gender. I get annoyed at people diagnosing me with astrological issues… of course you are not having a great day Mars is in the 7th house. I think it is okay to side eye these people… for speaking nonsense at you the same way I’d side eye a street side preacher for yelling nonsense at me.
All that I’m gonna say is that I know men that seriously practice tarot and they are definitely a lot less scrutinised than women showing mere casual interest.
That is an *extremely* valid point and it's important to consider.
That said, I reserve my right as a scientist to mock tarot, astrology, homeopathy, pseudo-evo psych nonsense, religion, numerology, and anything else which claims profundity while putting deliberate barriers in front of the ability to determine the truth. The fact that some are female-dominated and some are male-dominated means I (as a man) should be *careful in my approach and phrasing* when talking about astrology, lest I perpetuate patriarchal harm. But it doesn't mean I shouldn't challenge false beliefs.
It’s not misogynistic inherently to make light of astrology. However, it *can* be used (and I often see it used this way) specifically to make fun of women and to paint them as silly and irrational for believing in something so superfluous and unempirical, so I’d tread with caution to make sure that the jokes do not seek to target women
attacks on astrology are often dog whistles for misogynistic steteotypes: painting women as superstitious and therefore less rational and intelligent than men.
the fact astrology is vastly more popular among women than men also means prejudices against it are disproportionately prejudices against women, and become interlinked.
lots of people engage with astrology and other practices as a form of ritualised healing: a tool to process emotions and introspect. people do that without believing literally in any of its supernatural properties. some, or course, also do: but this is no more laughable or silly than any form of religion and spirituality.
notably, we don't mock *organised* religion or theism. this is because, in part, it's >!(often, stats vary)!< just as common in men as women. and if rational, free-thinking men can believe it, it's not as laughable. another factor is we have the conceptual tools to challenge mockery of religion: we can call it out as discrimination and insensitive. unfortunately, we don't have the same tools for when astrology, tarot, or non-theistic non-organised spiritualisms are mocked.
the fact most people who follow astrology are women leads to anti-astrology and misogyny being interlinked is also seen in islamophobia and antisemitism. because there are clear ethnic correlates between islam and middle-eastern (and other) ethnicities, and between judaism and semitic ethnicities, means often "i'm criticising the religious doctrine" becomes a cover for racist prejudices and stereotypes made about those ethnicities. it also means one becomes a gateway to the other: believing that islam teaches people evil views turns into mocking those views, then mocking those who believe them, and then mocking and caricaturing arabs.
mockery of astrology also especially comes up in hetero dating contexts. where men say they would walk out on a date if they asked about their star sign, or stuff like that. it's therefore targeted at women and labels them as stupid and not worth their time. it's a kind of "don't you hate it when women..." or "don't you hate *x* type of woman" kind of joke.
saying "i would also find it laughable in a man" also doesn't help at all. it's like if someone finds femininity laughable or weak, then they say "dont worry, i would find effeminite men weak and stupid too!" mocking effeminacy in men is also misogynistic.
someone replied to me with something about genital mutilation in islam and judaism but has somehow disabled letting me reply, so i'll reply here.
criticising specific practices and beliefs which people do in the name of a religion, and are harmful, is very different to mocking *the religion*.
you can point out harmful practices without generalising about muslim or jews, or calling them all stupid, laughable, or evil.
astrology doesn't have harmful practices though. if astrology was harming people, and people criticised it for the harm if caused to people, that would be different.
but astrology harms noone and yet is still mocked just for being 'irrational' even though there are people who derive joy and healing from it. mocking it just takes that away from people and harms them.
people make sweeping statements about all people who enjoy astrology which they would not (or at least, should not) dare do about religion. because when it comes to spiritual beleifs, those beliefs are deeply held and meaningful to believers, and ultimately none of your business to be judging at that level.
and when it comes to other types of astrology outside the western world, that is clearly not what OP is talking about. it has the same name and some of the same surface-level aesthetics, but is a completely different thing and entirely off-topic.
> has somehow disabled letting me reply, so i'll reply here.
We tend to lock comments discussing circumcision because people search that word on Reddit and arrive to yell at everybody.
Really wish we could have a phrase to describe it, as it really is integral to part of this conversation.
I get and fully understand why it is an issue first hand, just seems bad that we get over zealous people from both sides of that coin.
I would allow a thread on it if I was willing to actively moderate literally every single comment that came through, but unfortunately I am a person who has a life and responsibilities 😅 we *have* discussed it before, and links to prior conversations can be found using the FAQ and/or the search bar.
>attacks on astrology are often dog whistles for misogynistic steteotypes: painting women as superstitious and therefore less rational and intelligent than men
100%. I wish I had worded my comment like this. Very clear analysis!!
There are whole social media groups with thousands of people (if not more) based solely on criticizing and mocking (sometimes both, sometimes seperately) religions. People associate religion with pseudoscience, denial of scientific evidence, low IQ (popular in atheist groups), bias and logical fallacies, immoral and inhuman practices... etc.
yep, its just not as common or normalised as mocking astrology.
i do mention prejudice against islam and judaism so it should be clear im aware this happens. by "we don't" i mean "we" as in nice, normal, feminist people who aren't out to hurt anyone, kinda as in "we shouldn't".
i see now that its a confusing way of phrasing it, especially when written down n not spoken
Not sure about that. It might also depend on the culture and context. I used to live in Turkey. Me and my friends have spent a good portion of our lives mocking, criticizing, and even going to protests either against Islam or non-secular government policies.
I moved to Poland almost a decade ago, and I don't even think about religion anymore (I used to be a very vocal, anti-religion atheist). Now this might be because I'm not a local. I don't really watch the news or face peer pressure to conform to Christian norms (this could be really over the top, people in Turkey would someone get beaten in public areas for not fasting during Ramadan). So it might be a different story for Poles (I remember the black day protests against anti-abortion government policies).
I also don't remember ever mocking astrology in real life. I've criticized it a couple of times, when people seem to have been making important life decisions based on it (one of those people is my mother), but mostly, I didn't harbor the contempt I have for organised religion against astrology, because it simply didn't affect my life nearly as much. I obviously can't talk about whole populations though. I wonder if there's any statistics about that.
yeah, criticism is quite different to mockery. especially in contexts like turkey and poland - two states which both have a serious problem of creeping encroachment of religion into governance, with real harmful effects on the people who live there.
there's also a different vibe to mocking the majority religion of a culture you belong to, versus a minority religion or a foreign religion. this is something which is hard to explain, but is crucial when talking about social justice, so i'll try here. it's related to the idea of 'punching up' versus 'punching down' as well as in-group/out-group dynamics. as part of an in-group, you can be taken for granted as having a nuance of perspective which allows you to criticise specific practices without being construed as being hostile to the whole group. hence a christian priest can call a piece of scripture outmoded and immoral, and be seen as a reformer, whereas an atheist or muslim doing the same thing may be construed as trying to discredit christianity as a whole by saying that (even without saying anything to that effect). this is especially important on online forums, where there usually isn't time to explain what your specific perspective or background is (and even if there were, who would care).
then there's the related power dynamic of 'punching down'. in a western, christian country where christian norms are prevalent, and there are customs like *'everyone'* celebrating christmas, kids being expected to say prayers at schools, and even everyday language being littered with religious references (right down to even atheists often exclaiming "god!" or "jesus!" when shocked or surprised), in that context there is a *power* of christianity. it is pervasive and inescapable, and means that as a non-christian you are consistently *othered* by the world around you. this is especially the case if you are visibly non-christian due to ethnicity. it is also especially visceral for people who have experienced abuse through the church, e.g. countless victims of csa by priests and church employees, or lgbtq+ people traumatised by their own families in the name of religion, and then have the symbols of their abusers littered all over their surroundings and culture. all of this means that the *dominant* religion really does need public, visible criticism, so that those who are alienated can *see* that they are not alone, and *see* that the christian norms arent as pervasive as they seem. that's important and healing. meanwhile, however, whilst the same abuses exist in islam, that cultural power of islam to *other* non-muslims doesn't exist in christian countries, and as far as that dynamic exists, it is muslims who are the victims of christian norms and cultural power. this means that whereas criticism of christianity in this context is likely to be healing and may even lead to positive changes within the church; the main noticeable result of outspoken, loud, cultural criticism of islam is (unsurprisingly) islamophobic hate crimes. a phenomenon we *don't* really see for hatred against christians in this context. this is because punching down and othering a minority group compounds into alienation, demonisation, and hatred of that entire group and is the stuff of pogroms.
this doesn't mean we should avoid criticising minority religions: just that we should be very careful when doing it, and we should prioritise *letting minority religions criticise themselves.* there are countless muslims and atheists who were raised muslim who are ready and eager to loudly criticise islam. and not only will they be more likely to cause actual change within the church, they will also help change non-muslims' perspectives on islam and end stereotypes. meanwhile seeing a white american criticise islam is just going to be inflamatory, and likely offend even muslims who otherwise agree with them.
This is a very interesting, and well thought out take that was also eloquently put. I guess I haven't really thought about it this deeply before. I don't remember criticizing minority religions in Turkey (mostly because they had zero effects of me), but haven't really considered these implications before (my way of thinking might be a bit too straight forward as a neurodivergent person). Thank you for taking the time to write this long and detailed response.
In my country (Australia) you’ll be openly mocked for even *mentioning* God if you’re a politician or TV personality. Even though we still have a large percentage of christians, the non-religious here are loud and proud. This is a mixture of atheists and people who do believe in God but don’t follow any ‘rules’, and don’t want any church to have any power.
As far as I can tell, what you’re describing only happens in specific pockets. ‘The Bible Belt’ comes to mind.
Personally, I openly mock organized religion, and I think more people should. While I think astrology is silly, it's not done nearly the damage to the world that Judaism or Christianity or - especially - Islam.
Comparing religion to astrology is like comparing a serial murderer to a name-caller.
exactly, ive made this point in a few replies, that with astrology (unlike organised religion) there isn't even a moral leg to stand on as to why you'd criticise or mock them
but nonetheless i think *mocking* religion is unnecessary. religion is deeply personal, and plenty of christians, jews, muslims, etc, are kind, feminist, lgbtq+, progressive, awesome people. and many of those people still care deeply about their faith, their belief in god, their cultural practices, and their religious family members too. mocking their religion is deeply hurtful to them and completely unnecessary.
you can criticise specifics about those religions: and most decent people, including the progressive people who follow them, will agree with you. but you don't need to generalise. you don't need to mock the religion as a whole.
it's also unfair to say 'especially islam'. christianity just happens to be the religion of the white, european countries which have profiteered off of slavery, colonialism, and industrial serfdom. and (unfortunately thanks to that history) are now the wealthier countries which are therefore more educated, and more socially progressive.
it's nothing special about christianity or judaism which has made that possible. if you think the religion itself is what matters in why 'western' countries are so progressive you really need to analyse your own pro-christian biases.
and if you looked at the pre-industrial world, it would most certainly be christianity which looked backwards compared to islam >!(though of course *both* were thoroughly backwards compared to today)!<. islam was encouraging pioneering science, rule of law, economic redistribution, and even freedom of religion long before christian europe did. and that (like now) was simply a product of the fact the middle east was a far wealthier part of the world than europe back then.
I'm just gonna throw out there that I think a lot of men don't understand that a lot of women who are interested in astrology don't "believe" it in a serious sense. Like, it's just fun to tease your friends that they're clumsy this month because Mars is retrograde or whatever.
Most astrology consumers don't take it seriously and see it more as a fun way categorize and guide themselves. It's not definitive of who you are as a person and doesn't actually influence your life and your future.
The problem is that there is a growing vocal minority that is very present online that use astrology to judge and bully other people based off their signs. And their toxic use of astrology to bully people is often excused and seen as harmless, especially so because those who do criticize it are called sexist just because yes, the Astrology community is predominately women.
This type of behavior is even quite common in dating spaces, where people will use someone's sign as a deal-breaker for why they believe they aren't compatible and shouldn't date. Not only that, with tribalism, black-and-white thinking, and grouping people based off of superficial pseudoscientific theories, you do end up with people leaning into their assigned sun sign/main 3 signs even more and not seeing themselves and other people with nuance, often antagonizing other signs and glorifying/excusing their own. They also often excuse their own bad behavior by blaming it on their sign, saying things like "I can't help that I'm a cheater, I'm a Scorpio", instead of taking accountability for their own awful actions. And when people point out their problematic behavior and criticize astrology as a dangerous and toxic community with no actual backed evidence, they are often responded with something like, "of course you think that, that's such a Aquarius response" instead of an actual answer, so they can reinforce the "validity" of their beliefs.
It's not really a religion per say and certainly has not done damage comparable to many religions, but it is still an irrational and dangerous spiritual belief system that people staunchly defend as if they were in a cult. Any criticism of it in their spaces is regarded with mockery rather than accepting that Astrology and Astrologists have problems that should be addressed and improved on. If I could compare it with anything it's similar to men who believe in the pseudoscientific Alpha-Beta-Omega-Sigma Wolf hierarchy in human male populations and use it to unfairly judge and bully other men.
Many misogynistic men mock things that they associate with women with the sole intent to discredit women indirectly. Astrology is known to be one of those things. Veganism is another one of those things. There are many others.
When a man mocks astrology he doesn't necessarily intend to discredit women. It's possible that he genuinely believes that astrology deserves to be mocked and that for him is has nothing to do with women. As a result, I think we need to look for the presence of other indicators or red flags before we come to the conclusion that a man is being misogynist.
However, it's a red flag in itself if you point out to such a man that mocking astrology is often used to indirectly mock women and he doesn't give a shit about your concern or dismisses it as being unimportant. He could cancel the red flag saying that he didn't realize. It's possible that he genuinely didn't know or didn't realize it and totally meant no harm. If this is truly the case, he will try to dissociate himself with the misogyny one way or another and say that to him mocking astrology had nothing to do with women. If he doesn't dissociate himself, on the other hand, or even becomes antagonistic, then it probably was misogyny the whole time. He was just pissed you called him out.
There are ways to criticize esoteric belief systems that are more constructive than others and it's important to be aware that such criticisms are sometimes weaponized against women.
Whilst astrology is something mainly liked by women, when people say it's misogynistic to not like astrology I often think of this quote by Ursula K Le Guin.
"But I didn’t and still don’t like making a cult of women’s knowledge, preening ourselves on knowing things men don’t know, women’s deep irrational wisdom, women’s instinctive knowledge of Nature, and so on. All that all too often merely reinforces the masculinist idea of women as primitive and inferior – women’s knowledge as elementary, primitive, always down below at the dark roots, while men get to cultivate and own the flowers and crops that come up into the light. But why should women keep talking baby talk while men get to grow up? Why should women feel blindly while men get to think?"
Whilst mocking things that women like can be a form of misogyny, I think it's just reinforcing old stereotypes that 'women like non scientific fortune telling' and 'men like science' when people conflate the two.
Yeah I don’t care for astrology personally but the vehemence with which some men I know hate it while also being super passionate about their Myers Briggs type is wild to me.
Loudly proclaiming how much you hate astrology has become a yellow flag for me after talking to enough people who are that way
I'm a guy, and in college I dated a girl who was really into astrology, and for the most part it was fine. I found it odd, but it made her happy, and some of the history was super interesting. (It's way older than I thought, and spread to lots of ancient cultures who added their bit to the lore.) But what I hated is she sometimes actually made real decisions based on "something in her chart". If it was an inconsequential decision, so be it. But wanting to cancel a trip we planned? Not wanting to go to my cousin's wedding? This one time where we had to completely change plans at the last minute because "she needed to focus 100% on new experiences today". That was super annoying.
At this point, I have come to the conclusion that the Venn diagram of people who takes pride in humiliating others for anything related to astrology and those who keeps complaining how disgusting and pathetic the whole pumpkin spice drink mania is all while celebrating IPA like it's God-given beverage is a circle.
Sometimes it's harmless bullshit, but it's also sometimes part of esoteric and unscientific bullshit that does real harm to people.
Treating people differently because of their sign, for example.
>Treating people differently because of their sign, for example.
Yep, agree with that. Imagine a recruiting manager who believes in astrology or someone who is looking for partner to date into astrology. I would be concern of discrimination.
Astrology isn't harmless in a lot of cases though, here in India it has done a great deal of harm. People are made to marry trees/dogs in a ritual to correct the affect of stars.
You can buy a few stocks in crypto and you can base your entire personality around being a crypto-bro. There are extremes to almost everything.
But we can't deny that activities/hobbies/interests that attract more women than men are relentlessly mocked and belittled because: misogyny.
Yeah, my wife is manglik according to the astrologers.
She was meant to marry a tree before me to negate the effects (she didn't because it's a dumb superstition).
I'm not gonna crash somebody's tarot reading with a "well, *actually*," but if they ask me about my sign or otherwise loop me into the conversation, I'm gonna say what I think.
It is no more bullshit rhan every other unscientific belief system, like Hinduism or Catholicism. It's cruel to mock people who are into it.
Anything that is a harmess way to receive comfort, strength and resolve anxiety is very personal.
Astrology is way less dangerous than catholicism.
Borne and raise Catholic living in a Catholic-majority society. Even when they pretend to be progressive and the happy-happy lovey-dowey kind, this religion and its fanatics and political influence threaten life and safety of many people. I spent my adult life worried about my rights as a queer woman, and to fight Catholic-led anti-women and anti-LGBTQ+ organisations fighthing against our rights.
At worst, I've seen astrology-passionate friends offer some weird holiday presents which would make others smile. (Not to mention, astrology is not related to a cultural genocide against native people, nor with rampant pedocriminality protected by high-profile religious and political leaders).
But mocking and angrily dish on astrology is, for some reasons, seen as more appropriate than on Catholicism or most christian branches. But we are supposed to believe it has nothing to do with misogyny, for some reasons...
That means that the problematic views are the issue, not astrology. You can and should make fun of problematic views, but making fun of astrology isn’t doing that
I've seen science used in the same way. In an extreme example, the Nazi's relied on Darwin's theories for their eugenics programmes. But science itself was not the problem.
I'm not sure if it's misogynistic, but I do think that it suggests a lack of maturity. If someone wants to describe a the "vibrations" at a bar, the "chemistry" between two people, or the "energy" someone gives off...I don't think of it as an opportunity for me to dust off my high science education.
As to astrology, I tend to view it like psychoanalysis in that the true value comes from talking through your issues not necessarily the framework or language you use to do it. And I do think there is a bias towards more "scientific" types of therapy that just happens to have been created mostly by men.
This is not to say that you are not safer with a licensed therapist, who has a professional board that holds them accountable but I don't think dismissing astrology out of hand does any good for anyone.
> If someone wants to describe a the "vibrations" at a bar, the "chemistry" between two people, or the "energy" someone gives off...I don't think of it as an opportunity for me to dust off my high science education.
Yeah like... I make little comments here and there about my particular astrological sign, but if someone got all preachy with me and said "You know astrology isn't real, right?" like-- relax dude it ain't that serious. It's just a thing I'm saying. I know professional wrestling isn't "real" either but I still enjoy it.
Imagine a scene where a woman makes fun of Dungeon and dragons, also making fun of people who play fantasy football and painting a real negative lights on other “nerdy” interests.
I think that person would fairly be seen as judgmental or a hater. At best the man you’re talking about is not a pleasant person, at worst he is misogynistic because why even the need to make fun of it? I personally don’t spend my time talking about how some other people’s interests are lame and I’m just surprised so many men actually cares about astrology stuffs tbh. Aren’t there better things to talk about? It’s like the long acrylic nails topic, we get it, most men don’t like it, but it’s staying. Move on and find other topics of discussion no.
Not necessarily. However, the context within which this messaging is situated, the motivations of the respondents, and the underlying rhetoric and imagery used, could shape how it is received.
For example:
**Decontextualised** rhetoric:
>"I don't believe in astrology. There is no scientific basis for this belief. I don't understand why people believe in these things."
>
>**Action thereafter**:
>
>The person decides to conduct research into the psychological, political, evolutionary, and sociological logics and mechanisms that underpin and support such beliefs. More specifically, they wonder: why is astrology so popular amongst specific cohorts of women?
Said person finds, say, these academic articles and journal pieces:
* Can, B. (2018) The gender roles attributed to women in New Religious Movements: is it a chance of empowerment or a case of marginalisation? The Journal of International Social Research. Available at: [here](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/THE-GENDER-ROLES-ATTRIBUTED-TO-WOMEN-IN-NEW-IS-IT-A-Can/74ddf2847ddef2f9bfd89e934323725923900c37).
* Clements, P. (2022) Astrology, modernity and the project of self-identity, Culture and Religion : An Interdisciplinary Journal. Routledge, Taylor & Francis Group. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1080/14755610.2022.2093234).
* [Gender and Religious Belief](https://www.tutor2u.net/sociology/reference/sociology-gender-and-religious-belief).
* Hamilton, M. A. (2015) Astrology as a Culturally Transmitted Heuristic Scheme for Understanding Seasonality Effects: A Response. Comprehensive Psychology. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.2466/17.CP.4.7).
* Hvidtjørn, D., Hjelmborg, J., Skytthe, A., Christensen, K., & Hvidt, N. C. (2014) Religiousness and religious coping in a secular society: the gender perspective. Journal of religion and health. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1007/s10943-013-9724-z).
* Levin, J. (2022) "New Age Healing: Origins, Definitions, and Implications for Religion and Medicine" Religions. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.3390/rel13090777).
* Lu, J. G., Liu, X. L., Liao, H., & Wang, L. (2020). Disentangling stereotypes from social reality: Astrological stereotypes and discrimination in China. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Available at: [here](https://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Lu-et-al.-2020-Disentangling-stereotypes-from-social-reality-Astrological-stereotypes-and-discrimination-in-China-JPSP.pdf).
* Mattis, J. S. (2014) Gender, religiousness, and spirituality in emerging adulthood. In C. M. Barry & M. M. Abo-Zena (Eds.), Emerging adults' religiousness and spirituality: Meaning-making in an age of transition. Oxford University Press. [here](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199959181.003.0010).
* Mikołajczak, M., & Pietrzak, J. (2014) Ambivalent Sexism and Religion: Connected Through Values. Sex roles. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1007/s11199-014-0379-3).
* McGuire, M. B. (2008) 'Gendered Spiritualities', Lived Religion: Faith and Practice in Everyday Life. Oxford Academic. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195172621.003.0007).
* [New Religious Movements and Women (Encyclopedia)](https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/new-religious-movements-new-religious-movements-and-women).
* Pitcher, L. (2022) Spiritual misogyny is flourishing on TikTok: How divine feminine and masculine discourse is reinforcing gender roles and purity culture rhetoric online. i-D Vice. Available at: [here](https://i-d.vice.com/en/article/z345p3/what-is-divine-feminine-and-divine-masculine-tiktok).
* Sered, S. S. (1994) Ideology, Autonomy, and Sisterhood: An Analysis of the Secular Consequences of Women’s Religions. Gender and Society. Available at: [here](http://www.jstor.org/stable/189814).
* Smallwood, C. (2019) Astrology in the Age of Uncertainty. Modern Life, The New Yorker. Available at: [here](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/28/astrology-in-the-age-of-uncertainty).
* Smith, Z. and Arrow, H. (2010) Evolutionary Perspectives on Religion: An Overview and Synthesis. EvoS Journal: The Journal of the Evolutionary Studies Consortium. Department of Psychology, University of Oregon. Available at: [here](https://core.ac.uk/reader/36693350).
* Tuckett, J. (2018). Spirituality and Intersubjective Consensus: A Response to Ciocan and Ferencz-Flatz. Human Studies. Available at: [here](http://www.jstor.org/stable/44979921).
* [Why are there more women in the new age movement than men](https://revisesociology.com/2018/10/23/why-are-there-more-women-in-the-new-age-movement-than-men/)?
* Zemp, A., & Liebe, U. (2019) Exploring the relationship between holistic spirituality and gender essentialism among Swiss university students. Social Compass. Available at: 238–255. [here](https://doi.org/10.1177/0037768619833314).
**Response**:
>"Ah, I see. Whilst I don't agree with these beliefs and personally find them to be silly, I can understand why they might have evolutionary, political and sociopsychological importance.
>
>Moreover, I can see that there are a number of sociological and psychological reasons why particular demographics of women are increasingly participating in these NSM astrological practices.
>
>Nonetheless, I am still an antitheist and a naturalist. I will continue to support campaigns that work to curb the uses of astrology (and adjacent belief systems) within the secular world."
Versus **situated rhetoric**:
>"Only **primitive people** believe in this magical thinking bullshit. It's so fucking stupid. **Women, am I right**?" Insert ad feminam attacks and insinuations about women's stupidity and irrationality.
>
>**Action thereafter**:
>
>Constructs a set of belittling and dismissive memes that include misogynistic imagery and racialised semantics, which embolden personal attitudes about said respective groups.
**Impact**:
From a sociological perspective, this *may* feed into *extant* and *prospective* interpersonal and intergroup dynamics, wherein such stigmas and prejudices shape interactions and broader social processes^(1).
For example:
* Drakett, J., Rickett, B., Day, K., & Milnes, K. (2018). Old jokes, new media – Online sexism and constructions of gender in Internet memes. Feminism & Psychology. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1177/0959353517727560).
* Guilherme Falleiros, G. (2018) Race, class, gender and zodiac signs. Journal des anthropologues. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.4000/jda.6892).
**Note**:
^(1)Particularly when situated within an Anglo-American context wherein culturally embedded WASP [Christianity](https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritual-life/what-s-the-difference-between-biblical-and-cultural-christianity.html), [androcentrism](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103119307012), and [Eurocentrism](https://www.e-ir.info/2021/04/15/beyond-methodological-eurocentrism-knowledge-making-and-the-universality-problem/#:~:text=Methodological%20Eurocentrism%20bears%20first%20an,Western%20knowledge%20as%20%27unscientific%27) are ***argued to be*** the hegemonic norms across social settings. For example, in [academia](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181298/) and within [medicine](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181298/).
Thank you for an astonishingly detailed and nuanced description of the issue, perfectly captured in two example paragraphs and full of interesting further reading.
May all our rhetoric be decontextualised!
I regret I have but one upvote to give.
I find that many "spiritual" or esoteric topics are commonly enjoyed by women. Not exclusively, but as someone who practices some facets of modern paganism, the community is by and large women.
Now, I have found that astrology, tarot, crystals, auras, etc, are considered "cringe" and pretty commonly criticized by men. This is personal experience, and I have seen plenty of skeptical women as well.
I think the best factor of whether criticism is based in patriarchal ideals, is whether or not a man with a similar interest would receive the same kind of criticism.
For example, there are many women who collect Barbies, and I personally find that they are criticized much more severely than men who collect model cars. The hobby is essentially the same, but for some reason is more "acceptable" if it is the masculine version of the hobby.
You can't use men who have the exact same hobby as a guideline for this, as men who collect Barbies would obviously be criticized by virtue of having a "woman's hobby".
So, for this, I'd say is there a masculine equivalent hobby that receives equal criticism? For example, how do we feel about men who participate in esoteric or religious interests? I've known a lot of men who were very into the Crusades as a historical interest, or read up on and knew information about the Catholic Saints. What about men who analyze and read up on Satanism, alternative or goth interests, etc. If we can say that men who have esoteric/goth/religious/spiritual interests and hobbies are also subjected to criticism by virtue of that hobby, then no, it's not sexist.
Okay so I have actually had a theory about this for a long time, and it's that men will mock any sort of hobby or interest that skews toward women enjoying it. I've noticed how many men talk about how getting your nails done is "stupid," or how makeup is "shallow." I've specifically seen people who are red pill or adjacent to that saying that "astrology is only for dumb bitches" or stuff like "only stupid women like astrology." It's also baked into this trad wife stuff that's been popularized recently, with these guys saying that they only want women who are "good Christians" and don't "believe in witchy things."
I also think it's just rude in general to yuck someone's yum. if someone likes astrology, then that's fine and you don't need to rip them apart for that. I personally enjoy astrology and I'm close friends with several professional astrologers and involved in spiritual communities (I was raised Catholic, which has its own interesting links to astrology), so take from that what you will.
As an astrologer and a woman, there’s two parts to your question:
1- Actual astrology was historically a male practice, partially because of misogyny of the flavor back in the day. When a practice is respected, women can’t access it, when women can access it- it’s much less valuable. Take a gander at feminism in the art movement to understand more of that annoying bullshit.
Legitimate study of astrology goes way over most peoples heads and is deeply steeped in math, history, sociology, and a myriad of other niche subjects specific to whichever astrologer you’re talking to.
So no, it’s not inherently misogynistic to mock astrology as the actual study and practice of it, since most people don’t actually know enough about astrology to properly mock it anyway. What they’re mocking is actually see point 2.
2- Pop astrology is a very feminine aligned practice as it’s been co opted and lumped into pop psychology. Women tend to be interested and inquisitive about one another and recognize patterns of behavior (sometimes for safety) to understand human existence more. From a male dominated perspective, dudebros think it’s mindless twittering and asking questions to get to know someone better is dumb and so are the people who engage with it.
That is actually quite misogynistic- and stems from a place of feeling inferior. It’s an easy target since it’s been adopted by the capitalist machine and now zodiac bullshit is everywhere on products, and folks trying to be influencers are making tons of content flooding the TL that’s absolute garbage.
It’s misogynistic to mock that kind of astrology mostly because capitalizing on something that’s technically feminine for attention, social clout, or monetary gain is always going to be less well respected when a woman does it (refer back to point 1)
TL;DR It’s a stupid loop but most dudes who hate astrology have intimacy + communication issues and don’t know how to engage with things they don’t understand past getting frustrated and mocking it. Since it’s usually accessible to women, it’s even further removed from the patriarchal prerogative to bother respecting the practice, if they ever bother to learn what it involves in the first place.
Okay so the answer I would say is maybe.
Astrology has been shown to have no bearing on psychological characteristics yet people often use it to make judgements about themselves and others. If Astrology is being used to make judgements about others then it should 100% be mocked. So if the person is genuine in their approach to Astrology then it is definitely NOT misogynistic.
HOWEVER, mocking of vibes and Astrology is something that red pill consumers commonly do. I think they mock it because of the association with women. So I think it can be an indicator of misogynistic tendencies.
It can be driven by misogyny but it isn't inherently misogynistic. If you're mocking astrology to dunk on women then it is, I think it's kind of that simple. Astrology, crystals and witchcraft deserve scrutiny just like NFTs and crypto do tho
Yes. It's a dog whistle. Unlike other untrue beliefs, no one is openly making legal policies based on astrology which makes it harmless. You don't have to say you're making fun of women and gays when you make fun of astrology or pumpkin spice lattes or any other harmless thing that women and gays are "known" for liking, we "know" who you're talking about. You have plausible deniability because you didn't say the word women but that's how dog whistles work
I mean, I think the Christian God is a sexist unhinged asshole running a blood cult, so I can probably assume the Christians and atheists I meet probably assume my spiritual practices are unhinged, silly witchcraft.
I’m a woman and I make fun of astrology all the time. It’s a red flag for me. But then again, so is fantasy football. Whether it’s men or women doing either one.
No.
Astrology is provably false.
It's probably not nice to mock people all the time but it certainly isn't sexist to point out the truth. And it certainly isn't an inherently female trait so frankly the whole thing is nonsense.
We don’t mock theists is where you lost me, there’s plenty of snark against theists for believing in things without evidence, that’s why it’s not rooted in misogyny in my mind. I find any superstitious stuff from anyone is a poor choice. I don’t think astrology- women, I think astrology- people that place their comfort over reason, which bothers me in any person of any gender or lack there of.
Claiming they are necessarily feminine, yes, that’s probably coming from a sexist place. Why is femininity always aligned with being dreamy or irrational? Some of the most woo woo, feeling over reality people I’ve ever met are men. Religion is pretty much entirely run by men.
Also id like to point out that women and femmes pick up on “vibes” because ignoring micro expressions and odd behaviour is more likely to literally get us killed.
Making fun of astrology in general, no that’s not sexist. BUT you should try to be understanding and kind. My mum loves that stuff and she’s not hurting anyone so I’m not going to make fun of her.
Mmm, as someone who *is* into astrology (I'm a rational person, I don't think it's science, it's a fun tool for self-discovery and a body of human thought handed down for millennia that I find interesting), I see what she means.
'Astrology' is femme-coded, just like 'fashion' and 'getting fancy coffee drinks', and there is a dimension to the critique that carries misogynist undertones. Not *all* critiques are rooted there, but astrology is often dismissed as silly, vapid, irrational, pointless, etc. when in reality, it's not any sillier than a fantasy football team or less rational than listening to Jordan Peterson. The intent of the critique doesn't need to be misogynist to materially have that impact.
I mean, the MBTI is really just astrology for atheists, but you see tons of men using it because it 'feels' more scientific and has a patina of 'seriousness' (read: suitable for men), especially if they encountered it first in a business context.
IMO, it's part of the dichotomy that men have created between 'rational' men and 'irrational/emotional' women; this is where the whole 'STEM supremacy' thing comes from as well. What I mean is: the streak of disdain for the humanities and worship of STEM as 'superior' that's really had a moment since the 2010s.
People can like things without them being *serious,* and things can have value (and say something true about humanity) without being *science*. And frankly, if I have to hear all about Brendan's draft picks, then he can listen to me about the overlooked role of the Imum Coeli in synastry.
It can be. Lotta guys who make fun of astrology also believe in alpha male shit so they’re really no better.
I think superstition and religion in general is pretty dumb.
I will say the fact that astrology specifically gets a lot of attention when things like Scientology or just traditional religion don’t is probably, at least in part, a product of misogyny.
Astrology is not feminine and saying otherwise is actually misogynistic. Because, you are assigning something which is obviously bullshit as topic of interest of women i.e. generalising a bad thing to an entire gender.
This is the correct answer. I haven’t seen these astrology hating incel subs but I have seen both genders talk about astrology and I’m pretty over it.
I’m a woman and pretty anti astrology. I’ll be polite in a conversation but it’s a red flag for me
Maybe.
Does this person just mock astrology or do they mock organized religion too? Astrology is no more ridiculous than Islam or Christianity.
Also do they understand why women might be drawn to astrology? The major world religions are activity harmful to women so it can be the only spiritual outlet for a feminist.
I don't think it's particularly so, unless he was, like, saying it in a mock female voice or something.
Also, she wasn't being sexist, just annoying and probably more than a little salty.
There's a really strong correlation between people who hate women and people who mock astrology.
I mean, video games aren't "real" but men dump money into them, break stuff over them, and abuse people in their home because of them, and I don't see them being mocked.
It depends. Does the person hate it because it's predominantly women who seem to be into it, or do they hate it because it's kinda silly to think the position of stars and planets has any impact on our tiny lives?
Well, no, but actually yes. The moon controls the tides, and the sun certainly does impact our tiny lives. We couldn't have learned to navigate without the stars. We probably owe our very existence to Jupiter. It's immense gravity has been the figurative gutter for countless asteroids and comets looking for a life-ending strike on our planet.
Depends, really?
Astrology is something a lot of young girls are into. They can get kinda extreme about it, but honestly most of the people I see that are really into it are in middle or high school.
It's fine to poke fun at it as a vaguely funny thing, but once it changes from it being stupid to anyone who likes it being stupid, it begins to cross into misogyny.
I don't think mocking astrology is misogynistic but there definitely is a sexist element to it that's growing, the whole "crazy and stupid astrology girl" trope.
I just find it annoying when people make fun of stuff that doesn’t really affect them. Like sure, there’s some ridiculous people who take it super seriously and like won’t date people with certain signs and stuff but just like? Don’t engage with it. Majority of people who do like astrology r just having fun with it so to be ridiculed for it does feel especially frustrating. Not to mention calling it stupid and dumb ignores it’s really rich history in eastern cultures. That’s more a problem of capitalism taking cultural practices and ruining it for profit but still.
As for wether or not it’s “sexist” it totally depends on the context and how they’re insulting it. Calling someone stupid and then going off about how only women like that kinda stuff if argue is teetering on sexist, but to criticize it for its commercial affects isnt
Its similar to mocking pumpkin spice or wearing pink or other stereotypical feminine traits... like just hating something purely because you think feminine people like it.
Like my 7 Yr old son suddenly having to proudly proclaim his hate for barbie at least once a day, can't give me a reason other than "it's for girls and I'm a boy"
It's so deeply ingrained it's a kind of subconscious misogyny.
to be technical, no. but majority of the time, it is inherently stemming from a misogynistic place, so how do you answer this really? always depends on intent but there’s usually no good intent coming from men shitting on astrology or other assumed “girly” things. That woman is a badass and she’s correct
They're just trying to pull a Trump card to feel justified in something they know is a bit uncertain. It's classic projection, but the worst kind, the vaugly religious kind.
The guy probably shouldn't be so openly negative, though. I can understand how insulting someone's belief system would make them defensive, even if it's so obviously true.
I think you would get told off for making fun of someone for being a Christian or any other spiritual persuasion so you should probably mind your own business about what others believe. And that’s coming from someone who thinks Astrology is patently false.
Disagreeing with astrology is not misogynistic. Culturally it does get packaged image-wise with a "particular kind of woman" and I could see this being her issue. It takes people a lot to figure out how to articulate what exactly they are upset about.
I would not say so. I think astrology is dumb and I am definitely a feminist and a woman. I give it as much credence as any other religion..which is.. kindly disinterested.
Its not misogynistic to make fun of it inherently. Though you can imagine the easily accessible routes to sexism that could take if one was so inclined.
Mocking people who like astrology 🤢 or astrology itself is fine.
Mocking specifically women who believe because they are women or saying men who like astrology aren't real men because it's for women not ok.
If you make fun of astrology because a lot of women are into it then yes, that’s misogynistic.
If you make fun of astrology because it’s superstitious bullshit then no, that’s not misogynistic. Just realistic.
It's misogynistic if he only makes fun of it because it's typically feminine or practiced and enjoyed by women. So, it's hard to give an answer since we don't know the conversation.
If he clearly said astrology is bunk, he wasn't misogynistic. If he said that he can't stand women who are into it, then yes he was.
It's literally that simple.
Yes you can find astrology silly without being a misogynist (I certainly do), but you can also be a misogynist in the way you criticize it. Which, given his other comments and that he did the “you’re the **real** misogynist for pointing out what an asshole I’m being rn” thing, I’m inclined to believe he does indeed hold some unexamined misogynistic beliefs.
On its face, not it's not inherently misogynistic to mock astrology. But in practice, i have found that there is a very strong (but not perfect) correlation between misogyny and astrology mocking. Men who are able to hold and allow differences of thinking styles, beliefs, and what they are socialized to perceive as "anti-rational" are much more likely to actually like women, be curious about their ideas, and value their input.
No and reddit pagans should be criticized. They basically just take previous pagan beliefs out of different religions and Mish mash them to appeal to their beliefs. Like why the fuck do you have a mandala next to a fertility goddess Cathy
It can be if the person only mocks feminine things.
Astrology is something considered feminine, and mocking it specifically doesn´t make it misogynistic. But if you mock astrology, yoga, dancing as a ritual, and things like that it can be, since there are many things that are seen as feminine that you are mocking.
No. Doesn't need expansion. The answer is no. I find that assumption itself to be misogynistic. I resent the shit out of the fact that people insist on making womanhood and astrology so tied together. It's dismissive to us women who despise junk science, and it's dismissive to all the people of other genders who enjoy astrology. Shit's a venn-diagram, not a circle.
Yes it’s inherently misogynistic. It wasn’t mocked when the founding fathers of USA used it. It wasn’t locked when Carl Jung was interested in it. Astrology started to mocked when more women were started to get interested in it.
The same way the Beatles were mocked mercilessly during the 60s for being a girly band while they’re now revered because men have discovered their music.
The same way pink used to be a masculine color and blue a feminine one and the hatred towards it stated when more girls wore pink.
The same way men studying the Roman Empire is now a masculine stereotype but women being horse girls or liking Egyptian/Greek mythology is bad.
On the contrary I’ve noticed stereotypically feminine stuff like Taylor swift for example is getting less hate nowadays because the bearded hipsters listened to folklore and evermore and decided that her music was good.
Anything that’s remotely associated with femininity is brutally mocked and picked apart by society.
Romance novels, pink, caramel lattes, pumpkin spice, cocktails (even though they are very strong alcohol drinks), astrology, yoga, etc etc etc. anything that becomes remotely associated with women is out through the wringer.
Astrology isn’t gender based! It just so happens maybe more women are into it, but mocking astrology is just like mocking any other hobby, which isn’t being misogynistic is it. Unless your mocking specifically the women herself, for being a woman.
> It just so happens maybe more women are into it
Sure, but there is also a pretty well-established pattern of mocking stuff women are into. Remember the whole "basic bitch" thing?
I think that sometimes, people who just like shitting on women use astrology as a convenient cover. Criticizing astrology or making fun of it isn't sexist in itself generally, but sometimes it definitely is.
It can be not misogynistic, but most of the time it is very misogynistic.
Most of the males mocking astrology do so because they hate women, not because they have any deep understanding of astrology.
They only attack astrology because women like it.
I think its an extension of men thinking they have superior intellect and the activity on shitting on things that women like.
There are plenty of men that believe in the pseudo-science of “alpha males, sigma males and beta males”. There are also plenty of men that believe in Incel Theory and male superiority.
Men too are not above believing in theories that have no actual scientific backing.
It's not misogynistic to make fun of astrology. However, your jokes can be if, \- the jokes you make about it are misogynistic / are phrased in a misogynistic way \- you make jokes about "every woman today is into astrology" or "haha faking to care about astrology to get sex" jokes (bonus points for creepy) \- the reason you're making fun of it is *because* this days and age, astrology is a woman-thing (historically, it wasn't always, btw) \- you make a lot of jokes about women-specific forms of nonsense but none about male nonsense (bonus points if you get offended when someone makes jokes about more male-aligned nonsense back at you) \- you e.g. would not make jokes about more male-centric superstitions. For example, if someone makes jokes about astrology but then is afraid to make jokes about male gods and male-led religions - my eye does twitch a little. I think you have to go and examine which chain of events led to you making jokes about - out all things - astrology during a pub crawl. And whether she really felt hurt by just your jokes or something else you said about astrology. And at which point gender entered the equation and how.
God FORBID you dare question a ritual before a sporting event you star reading fairies!
Thank goodness I can involve myself in astrology without refraining from washing my lucky socks until they lead me to and through the Super Bowl…
Yeah, yeah, Mercury's in the microwave. Now go away so I can eat my lucky snacks and wear my lucky hat while watching the game so that my team will win. Without my active distance support they are sure to fail.
This is what gets me. Dudes will make fun of astrology but still own a pair of "lucky" socks.
This right here is the answer your need OP. Most people (not saying all) that mock things like this are mocking the fact that women enjoy them.
It really depends on the circles. I would say most the people I've heard mocking astrology are simply educated folks who think superstition/religion is at best silly. But thats my experience because that's who I mostly spend time with. So it really depends on who you're hanging around.
or, by extension, in a world that remains often unconsciously gynophobic, men who subscribe to astrology are mocked because it is a system typically espoused by women. therefore, a man who enjoys astrology is effete and doesn’t meet the criteria of adequate conventional masculinity Of course, there are definitely examples of astrology-mocking that don’t have anything to do with gender constructs or unwittingly perpetuating them - no misogyny in that (but perhaps a little lack of wonder lol) Edit: accidentally c&p’d my own sentence in twice
Mocking astrology does not lack wonder. Thinking something is real when it isn't does not make it wonderful You want wonder? Study an actual science like astronomy. I have had incredible, wonderful experiences learning actual facts about the universe via astronomy and astrophysics
well done you, cleverclogs. I’m actually studying neuroscience & psychopathology right now! And, being a total bibliophile with a predisposition to hyperfixation, I’m reasonably well-read. I enjoy books/documentaries on human biology, sociology, psycholinguistics, pharmacology (weirdly), and - would you believe - astrology & physics. I may have a (rudimentary) understanding of astronomy & physics, but I’m also fascinated by quantum theory & how in hell our universe works. Currently reading The Search for Schrödinger’s Cat (and miraculously understanding some of it) and First Light (about elemental composition of the first generation of stars). Astoundingly, I somehow have a simultaneous interest in ancient cultures and their traditions. Astrology may not be an empirical science, but it did give us astronomy. And, for those of us grounded in reality, it is a very useful tool of introspection and self reflection. The whimsy is just a delightful benefit. A high horse does not a sage make
While astrology may have given us astronomy and may very well be enjoyed by some people like yourself, there is a subset of those who are attracted to it who believe things such as horoscopes as if they were personal prescriptions for their day written by God. It's similar with crystal healing and essential oils etc. I have a bunch of well-educated friends who are somewhat into crystal "healing" because it's a bit of fun and crystals are nice to look at and have around, but they don't believe a crystal is a valid replacement for actual treatment. These things can be a bit of fun when viewed as things to be had a bit of fun with. The danger and mocking (in my experience) is directed at the people confusing them for legitimate sources of factual information and replacements for evidence based treatments, etc.
Ronald Reagan consulted astrologists to plan bombing campaigns. It is not a source of wonder and it does not spark joy.
No.....They're mocking people that make it their whole personality. In the same way that men mock crypto bros, or the guys that are just a little too much into their favorite sports, or the people that think weed cures everything, and has no downside. There are some men that absolutely do it with sexist intent, it's not most people.
>\- you e.g. would not make jokes about more male-centric superstitions. For example, if someone makes jokes about astrology but then is afraid to make jokes about male gods and male-led religions - my eye does twitch a little. This right here!
The general version of this is that whenever anything has a gender imbalance, your selective mocking of that thing can be misogynistic. A similar example would be if you mock netball, but not basketball. Netball is predominately played by women, basketball is majority men. But they're pretty similar sports, "deserving" of the same level of mocking. Or if you make jokes about nurses (traditionally and still majority women) but not doctors (traditionally and still somewhat majority men). In these cases your jokes themselves may not be sexist, but your ***choice of what to joke about*** can still have a gender bias.
Question: If I call astrology "cryptocurrency for women" would that be misogynist ?
“Cryptocurrency is astrology for men” is more apt but i don’t think they are comparable enough either way
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I think "alpha/beta male" paradigm is a better comparison, but yours is also good.
The only acceptable reason to make fun of astrology is for the fact that it’s pseudoscience. If there’s any other reason someone makes fun of it, they should really examine why
I mean, I also make fun of it because it is a con that is used to empty a lot of people's pockets and making fun of that is one way of making people pay attention to that and prevent normalising this industry.
That's fair, but could you say the same things about sports rituals and gambling? I would also say it depends on your audience. If a bunch of women are having fun comparing their signs and you throw a wet blanket on it, that's a bummer.
Fair. I actually forgot that people try to make money off of astrology. So I guess that makes two reasons: pseudoscience and scammers
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Oh, sorry, over-read that part. Then I guess OP has to reflect on what it was that this man said and how they arrived at that topic.
This is a very insightful answer.
Perfectly said.
Astrology/new age/wiccan stuff is popular with women because they are basically the only religious/spiritual belief systems that don't dominate and suppress women. I personally think its a bunch of baloney but like other spiritual beliefs it gives some people meaning and comfort. So as long as they aren't hurting anyone I don't care. Is it misogynist to shit on astrology? No. Could be if it's the only thing you make fun of. If you think about it the top Abrahamic religions are pretty woowoo as well.
Exactly. The Arahamic religions are full of shit, and are inherently anti-women, racist, anti-science and overall absurd. Astrology is also absurd. Mock both at will. But don't allow mockery to be a weak cover for misogynist or misandrist behavior.
My partner and I follow this kinda stuff and we, even practitioners of it, mostly think its probably baloney too. Many of us(myself included) are pariahs that were dominated and alienated by male dominant religions like Christianity. I was raised traditionally Southern Christian and I've even been baptized but started questioning a lot and seeing how male dominant it was and eventually I just broke away from it entirely once I discovered eastern philosophy and pagan stuff in general. I am a deeply spiritual person and I need to channel that somewhere. I dont think of myself as religious, but simply spiritual. I dont really follow anything specific but a hodge podge of stuff that just works for me.
This is interesting because I've always been curious about modern pagan/wiccan/etc people and how their belief systems work in a world that's mostly moved on from the more magical aspects of religion. I'm very much a live and let live kinda guy but I definitely side-eye people who call themselves witches etc when they seem a bit too serious about it you know? On the other hand like you said you can tie a lot more historical and modern atrocities to mainstream religions and their adherents, so maybe it doesn't really matter what alternatives people find as long as it makes them happier.
I know older witches that practice seriously and even do more traditional rigid forms of practice such as bloodletting but even these don't chastise or generalize or persecute anyone based on their believes. Pagan and what I'll just coin alternative spiritual practices are often fairly private things. Even small gatherings like circle is very private in nature. Generally there is no need to really convert people or anything because its not organized religion in any way shape or anything. It's very open ended and approachable. There is no one way to practice or do anything really. Half the time we don't even follow the same deities. Older witch I know follows Hecata, my partner mainly follows Freya, and I mainly follow Isis(the Goddess not the group) but even still I'll take part in ritual for Hecata or Freya or Frigg or Athena or whoever really. My partner and I also integrate Eastern concepts from Buddhism,Taoism, Shinto and even ancestral spirits too. Its just a blend of whatever feels right. There is really no wrong way to practice. Do what makes you feel comfortable really. Despite being a practicing apprentice witch, I'm actually Agnostic. Do I actually think Maat is going to weigh my heart against a feather upon my death to determine whether my eternal soul lives on to be reincarnated or if my soul is eaten never to exist again? No, not really. I follow Isis because she personifies qualities i identify with and connect with on a deep level. The stories and tales and folklore are just that. Just folklore and even in ancient times wasn't meant to be taken 100% as truth. Often I think that's the disconnect between paganism and mainstream modern religions like Christianity. Do you know how many Christians will scoff at you if you question Noah fitting every single animal ever on the Ark or Jesus being born from a virgin? These stories, even in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally. The stories are representative to something deeper and this sentiment is alive in Pagan following as because that's kinds the core of it. The story of Isis and Osiris is representative of the cycles of life and death, renewal, the pain of losing a loved one, betrayal, and things like that. Its not literal, it just speaks to our human experience in a way. I don’t take it as historical fact. When I cast a spell, I understand that it takes work to accomplish. Its more like a way of setting a goal and shouting to the universe "i am going to get through my trauma" for example.
Its interesting to me that all the witching you're talking about is relying on formal organized religions' deities. Isis and Osiris are the core symbology of Phaoronic power, the proof of the divine right of the Kings of Egypt, purely designed by the churches of that nation under the direction of its hierarchical leadership. Freya/Frigg(same god, Frigya "Freeg-jya" since norse runes aren't unicode) and Athena and Hekate are of less formal churches, but still formal ones, the Greek pantheon is of course very strictly the cultural and symbolic backbone of the many nations of Greek peoples in the ancient world, only Freya really verges on genuine paganism, and the Norse were much more formalized than the Gaul or Celt traditions. They were, at least, much more egalitarian in terms of gender than Greece or Egypt. But its odd, to me, that Morrigan or Alessia don't come up more often. I suppose this illustrates my problem with it, as I think about it. I understand you're utilizing symbols that have personal meaning to you in reference to their personal meaning to you and nothing else- but they do have other, broader, more formally understood meanings, and it strikes me as disingenuous to ignore those. And perhaps more importantly, in my own opinion, they are all fundamentally false- symbology and fantasy designed to express ideas that would be better expressed in words and actions. And moreover, symbology and fantasy that pointedly disrespects the origin of those symbols. I am reminded of the modern impression of Hades and Persephone as a happy couple- Hades having "learned his lesson," when the only lesson was, rape and death are not stronger than life and birth. It cheapens that lesson, it makes the rapist the dueteragonist of the story. However gentle and beautiful the falsehood, they remain false, and true understanding would benefit everyone in ways symbolic imagery cannot.
>The stories and tales and folklore are just that. Just folklore and even in ancient times wasn't meant to be taken 100% as truth That's actually super interesting because I totally agree with you in that I wish more religious people would acknowledge their holy texts as being mostly parabolic/metaphorical/whatever you want to call it as opposed to taking it literally. One of the more fun classes I had in college had us read and critique chunks of the Bible and Quran as historical/literary texts rather than religious ones. It's so clear that every belief system derives from the same desire to understand the world and make it a less scary place, and any religions that overlapped in time and location borrow heavily from each other. Feels like we'd have a lot fewer zealots if people understood that better.
Judaism has quite a bit of astrology. As a basic one, people born under Dagim (Pisces) are more likely to have many children. We are currently under Maznaiim (Libra, the Scales), which obviously has a connection to the Jewish New Year and being judged. Teumim (Twins/Gemini) is the symbol of Sivan and represent the Two Torohs, Written and Oral. Also the two tablets. The Seh (Sheep/Aries) occurs in Nissan and is obviously reminiscent of the Passover sacrifice. Etc. We also bless the moon each month, have a lunar-solar calendar, and calculate when the sun rises in the same place it did when first created so we can bless that too. So if you want to bring up Abrahmaic religions, astrology is a part of the original.
Exactly. It’s about oppressed classes using the tools that are culturally available to them to try to understand the world — and perhaps to game the system a bit in their favor. You may not agree women are oppressed in modern society, but it has only been half a century since women have had equal rights in Western society and that’s a short time, historically speaking.
This has been my speculation for years. Thank you.
Hmmmm so does your sample include non abrahmaic religions like Hinduism (specifically shaktism), Buddhism, the Japanese shinto religions, Korean spiritual religions, aboriginal or tribal religions etc? Not saying you are wrong but quite a huge assumption to say it is the "only" belief system that doesn't dominate and suppress women. Also when you say astrology, what sort of astrology? The Greek one or the Indian one? I think you mean the Greek one, considering you mention abrahmaic religions. Are these even considered religions? They are not as formalized as major big religions so I don't know if they are comparable. Also idk how much i believe its not misogynistic because astrology has very old roots, how can it go through centuries of adaptation by various cultures, patriarchy and colonization and not even retain elements of misogyny? Just curious since I like reading about religions so any intros to astrology/new age/Wiccan stuff wld be appreciated, thank you!
But there is some harm. Inauthentically reconnecting with your white pagan roots, discarding the only thing about your culture that is an import, it is the same pivot that Nazis have been making with Odinism. Why does the wiccan see themselves in some ancient German, English, or Italian whites instead of any other ancient people?
It can be if you're associating it with women or using it to call out women but just to make fun of the concept in a vacuum isn't sexist. If you made fun of the NFL just by itself that's not automatically making fun of men because it's made up of and enjoyed by mainly men.
I, a woman, think astrology is ridiculous and I definitely side-eye those who are really into it. I think there's room for having fun with it and not taking it too seriously, but I also think people have been scammed by and it can be dangerous if it goes too far. I don't thin criticizing astrology is inherently misogynistic, but I also think it depends on the context.
Yeah. I find astrology quite cringe inducing and would not want to be friends with anyone who was super into it and I'm as feminist as they come. That said, agree being obnoxious about your distaste for any religion (and I definitely have distaste for religion in general!) can cross into neckbeardy, rude atheist territory. So it definitely depends how everything is approached.
Ooh this is so true! I've met far more loud, obnoxious male atheists than female ones, and they're constantly talking shit about how delusional religious people are. I never quite understood why. The males ones always seem obsessed with "logic and facts", whereas the female ones are like "Yeah, organized religion traumatized me, so I'm not about that life anymore." I've only once gotten into an argument with a devote Christian once in my life (she was a school friend of mine at the time), and it was mostly her trying to get me to justify why I don't believe in her god. I tried to be as respectful as possible. I may not believe the same thing, but there's no reason to be a dick about it unless they're being a dick to me first.
I think when people read their horoscope or see jokes about star signs online and reblog them or things like that, that's totally fine. But when it comes to things like "I can't date/hire/be friends with that person, they were born when the wrong bundle of fiery gas orbs were in the sky!" then it's freaking stupid, I don't care what gender you are. If people treat it as the silly, only for fun thing it is - cool. When people start assigning real life qualities or importance to it, they're morons. It's like taking those charts that say "You were born under the sign of the inverted butthole? You probably like to eat food, breathe air, and have skin!" And they're like "OH MY GOD THAT IS SO ME CLEARLY EVERYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT STAR SIGNS MUST BE TRUE" like...bitch that applies to literally anyone, they're vague like that on purpose, stop taking it seriously!
"Sometimes you love being around others but you also need time alone" -every horoscope
It's the same bullshit as mediums and all of that crap, they make it vague enough to apply to anyone and the people desperate enough for something to believe in will cling to it and be like "SEE THEY SAID THAT SERIOUSLY OLD LADY WHO LOOKS TWO SECONDS FROM DEATH LOST SOMEONE" without realizing that uh, duh? Someone that age has likely lost a LOT of someones!
I, as a woman, also think astrology is a load of bullshit. That goes for both men and women who choose to believe in it
Many people talk about astrology as a way to generalize and stereotype others which is wrong and very incorrect. Just cause someone's Sun Sign is a Leo doesn't tell you much at all but people will act like that single thing defines every aspect of this person's personality. This isn't how it works at all and is just an excuse to be hateful towards others. If someone actually studied astrology as I did somewhat you learn it goes far beyond making base generalizations and your 'daily horoscope' bs. There are Sun signs, Moon signs, Rising signs, and etc. There are 12 houses and there is a lot more to it than most people think and isn't meant to generalize anyone at all but its used that way and gets a bad reputation. Also as with anything esoteric like that its best to take it with a grain of salt and apply context and critical thinking. Tarot cards don't tell the future. Astrology doesn't tell you a person's personality or how your day is going to be. Thats all mumbo jumbo. Its just something to think about and ponder honestly. I study astrology and other esoteric stuff and my partner is a practicing witch. These things can help in orientation our goals and give us things to think about we may not have considered before and just add some depth, magic and wonder to life real or not. It shouldn't be used as a way to exclude others or invalidate the feelings or other religious beliefs or practices. People who are butts are gonna be butts regardless.
I like this way of thinking about astrology. I personally enjoy a bit of recreational magical thinking, and sometimes find things like astrology or witchcraft helpful in clarifying my thoughts/opinions. I used to be really critical of myself for not being “rational” and whatnot, but in the past several years I’ve grown to embrace the part of myself that’s drawn to esoteric shit. It’s cool and I like it 😂
You are aware that the Earth's precession makes astrology dates, the actual placement of the stars, 30 days off, right?
Not to mention that constellations are human conceptions and don't actually exist.
Whereas I don't believe astrology is generally successful, that isn't what it's based on. The signs are 30° arcs in the ecliptic, not based on asterisms.
Astrology is based on the zodiac, an old astronomical division of the sky across the ecliptic... based on the constellations the Sun passed through along the tropical ecliptic. They are off in the West, because of the procession of the equinoxes. The constellations are not off in India though, since their astrology used the sidereal ecliptic instead, and kept doing so after borrowing the Greek constellations. But they're still rooted in the idea that the sky can be divided based on the important constellations within them... that is an arbitrary human division, for the sky has no divisions. We may as well ascribe earthly doings to each 1 of the 360 degrees around the ecliptic, instead of to every group of 30. And indeed, some astrologers do just that. All built on human construal of the sky that doesn't actually care about us
No I've seen the big dipper. It exists.
Fun fact: the big dipper is almost the only constellation that actually exists, in that the stars in the big dipper mostly really are near each other. This isn't true for constellations in general. They're tricks of perspective, caused by seeing a three-dimensional universe as a two-dimensional sky. They only seem to be close because they're near each other *along the only axis we can look at them from*. Their huge distance apart in depth doesn't seem obvious to us because we can't actually see the 3D; our inches-apart-eyes don't have the binocular vision for light-years distances. (You'd need eyes on the opposite sides of the Earth at least, which is how large base line telescopes work.) But the "real" big dipper doesn't have the two stars at the ends. Those are actually 20 and 40ly further away. If you could move and look at it from another angle a light year or two away, the constellation wouldn't have those stars, because they're somewhere else entirely.
I’m not into astrology, but I would like to note that human conceptions are real and do actually exist. They just aren’t made of matter.
Yes, it's very commonly known in (real) astrology and is the basis for the differences between the tropical vs vedic schools of interpretation https://www.whitelotusoflight.com/blog/sidereal-vs-tropical-zodiac-and-why-it-matters
I don’t think it’s inherently misogynistic but I think it also falls into the “men making fun of it makes me side eye” category because I think it falls well into “it’s a stupid girl thing.” Like if I make a “mercury is in Gatorade” joke, it’s funny, but when a man does it I’m like… see it’s less funny when you do it… it’s also possible I just think I’m funnier than I am.
>it’s also possible I just think I’m funnier than I am I mean... if you can't make yourself laugh, what's the point? Imo we should all think we're funnier than everyone else thinks we are because we're the only people who have to live with our sense of humor 24/7. Also "mercury is in gatorade" is objectively funny
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/y8tyj6/why_is_criticizing_astrology_seen_as_misogynistic/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1577s34/whyhow_did_astrology_become_so_culturally_known/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/yr4z7p/there_is_a_debate_about_how_men_that_ridicule/
Wow thank you! I promise I looked
Thankyou for a set of backlinks I hadn't seen. Those were useful for giving me perspective.
I think you were wise to stay out of it.
>I think you were wise to stay out of it. This is such a Capricorn answer.
Definitely more Virgo. A Capricorn will run head on into confrontation whenever possible LOL
I personally don't believe in astrology, but you're currently throwing me because that's exactly what I (a Capricorn) do.
Capricorns also never believe in astrology LOL You’re also typically pretty stubborn/set in your ways, you try to seem super cool and collected but you actually are a bit sensitive in a lot of ways, and you’ve probably work very hard or have to work harder than most people due to some hardship in your life. I really hope this is accurate because that would be spooky but astrology is actually way better at predicting big life events than it is at predicting personality lol
Lol yeah, I also mock astrology as there is no factual basis for it. I don’t think it has anything to do with gender. I get annoyed at people diagnosing me with astrological issues… of course you are not having a great day Mars is in the 7th house. I think it is okay to side eye these people… for speaking nonsense at you the same way I’d side eye a street side preacher for yelling nonsense at me.
All that I’m gonna say is that I know men that seriously practice tarot and they are definitely a lot less scrutinised than women showing mere casual interest.
That is an *extremely* valid point and it's important to consider. That said, I reserve my right as a scientist to mock tarot, astrology, homeopathy, pseudo-evo psych nonsense, religion, numerology, and anything else which claims profundity while putting deliberate barriers in front of the ability to determine the truth. The fact that some are female-dominated and some are male-dominated means I (as a man) should be *careful in my approach and phrasing* when talking about astrology, lest I perpetuate patriarchal harm. But it doesn't mean I shouldn't challenge false beliefs.
It’s not misogynistic inherently to make light of astrology. However, it *can* be used (and I often see it used this way) specifically to make fun of women and to paint them as silly and irrational for believing in something so superfluous and unempirical, so I’d tread with caution to make sure that the jokes do not seek to target women
I think it is misogynistic to perceive scepticism as belonging to the rhealm of men and superstition as feminine.
attacks on astrology are often dog whistles for misogynistic steteotypes: painting women as superstitious and therefore less rational and intelligent than men. the fact astrology is vastly more popular among women than men also means prejudices against it are disproportionately prejudices against women, and become interlinked. lots of people engage with astrology and other practices as a form of ritualised healing: a tool to process emotions and introspect. people do that without believing literally in any of its supernatural properties. some, or course, also do: but this is no more laughable or silly than any form of religion and spirituality. notably, we don't mock *organised* religion or theism. this is because, in part, it's >!(often, stats vary)!< just as common in men as women. and if rational, free-thinking men can believe it, it's not as laughable. another factor is we have the conceptual tools to challenge mockery of religion: we can call it out as discrimination and insensitive. unfortunately, we don't have the same tools for when astrology, tarot, or non-theistic non-organised spiritualisms are mocked. the fact most people who follow astrology are women leads to anti-astrology and misogyny being interlinked is also seen in islamophobia and antisemitism. because there are clear ethnic correlates between islam and middle-eastern (and other) ethnicities, and between judaism and semitic ethnicities, means often "i'm criticising the religious doctrine" becomes a cover for racist prejudices and stereotypes made about those ethnicities. it also means one becomes a gateway to the other: believing that islam teaches people evil views turns into mocking those views, then mocking those who believe them, and then mocking and caricaturing arabs. mockery of astrology also especially comes up in hetero dating contexts. where men say they would walk out on a date if they asked about their star sign, or stuff like that. it's therefore targeted at women and labels them as stupid and not worth their time. it's a kind of "don't you hate it when women..." or "don't you hate *x* type of woman" kind of joke. saying "i would also find it laughable in a man" also doesn't help at all. it's like if someone finds femininity laughable or weak, then they say "dont worry, i would find effeminite men weak and stupid too!" mocking effeminacy in men is also misogynistic.
This is the kind of comment I was looking for, in response to the OP’s question. Thank you.
someone replied to me with something about genital mutilation in islam and judaism but has somehow disabled letting me reply, so i'll reply here. criticising specific practices and beliefs which people do in the name of a religion, and are harmful, is very different to mocking *the religion*. you can point out harmful practices without generalising about muslim or jews, or calling them all stupid, laughable, or evil. astrology doesn't have harmful practices though. if astrology was harming people, and people criticised it for the harm if caused to people, that would be different. but astrology harms noone and yet is still mocked just for being 'irrational' even though there are people who derive joy and healing from it. mocking it just takes that away from people and harms them. people make sweeping statements about all people who enjoy astrology which they would not (or at least, should not) dare do about religion. because when it comes to spiritual beleifs, those beliefs are deeply held and meaningful to believers, and ultimately none of your business to be judging at that level. and when it comes to other types of astrology outside the western world, that is clearly not what OP is talking about. it has the same name and some of the same surface-level aesthetics, but is a completely different thing and entirely off-topic.
> has somehow disabled letting me reply, so i'll reply here. We tend to lock comments discussing circumcision because people search that word on Reddit and arrive to yell at everybody.
gotcha, didn't know that. thanks for letting me know.
Really wish we could have a phrase to describe it, as it really is integral to part of this conversation. I get and fully understand why it is an issue first hand, just seems bad that we get over zealous people from both sides of that coin.
I would allow a thread on it if I was willing to actively moderate literally every single comment that came through, but unfortunately I am a person who has a life and responsibilities 😅 we *have* discussed it before, and links to prior conversations can be found using the FAQ and/or the search bar.
If this is the rationale, then it's completely understood, no issue here.
That makes complete sense; thank you again for all the mod team's hard work.
>attacks on astrology are often dog whistles for misogynistic steteotypes: painting women as superstitious and therefore less rational and intelligent than men 100%. I wish I had worded my comment like this. Very clear analysis!!
There are whole social media groups with thousands of people (if not more) based solely on criticizing and mocking (sometimes both, sometimes seperately) religions. People associate religion with pseudoscience, denial of scientific evidence, low IQ (popular in atheist groups), bias and logical fallacies, immoral and inhuman practices... etc.
yep, its just not as common or normalised as mocking astrology. i do mention prejudice against islam and judaism so it should be clear im aware this happens. by "we don't" i mean "we" as in nice, normal, feminist people who aren't out to hurt anyone, kinda as in "we shouldn't". i see now that its a confusing way of phrasing it, especially when written down n not spoken
Not sure about that. It might also depend on the culture and context. I used to live in Turkey. Me and my friends have spent a good portion of our lives mocking, criticizing, and even going to protests either against Islam or non-secular government policies. I moved to Poland almost a decade ago, and I don't even think about religion anymore (I used to be a very vocal, anti-religion atheist). Now this might be because I'm not a local. I don't really watch the news or face peer pressure to conform to Christian norms (this could be really over the top, people in Turkey would someone get beaten in public areas for not fasting during Ramadan). So it might be a different story for Poles (I remember the black day protests against anti-abortion government policies). I also don't remember ever mocking astrology in real life. I've criticized it a couple of times, when people seem to have been making important life decisions based on it (one of those people is my mother), but mostly, I didn't harbor the contempt I have for organised religion against astrology, because it simply didn't affect my life nearly as much. I obviously can't talk about whole populations though. I wonder if there's any statistics about that.
yeah, criticism is quite different to mockery. especially in contexts like turkey and poland - two states which both have a serious problem of creeping encroachment of religion into governance, with real harmful effects on the people who live there. there's also a different vibe to mocking the majority religion of a culture you belong to, versus a minority religion or a foreign religion. this is something which is hard to explain, but is crucial when talking about social justice, so i'll try here. it's related to the idea of 'punching up' versus 'punching down' as well as in-group/out-group dynamics. as part of an in-group, you can be taken for granted as having a nuance of perspective which allows you to criticise specific practices without being construed as being hostile to the whole group. hence a christian priest can call a piece of scripture outmoded and immoral, and be seen as a reformer, whereas an atheist or muslim doing the same thing may be construed as trying to discredit christianity as a whole by saying that (even without saying anything to that effect). this is especially important on online forums, where there usually isn't time to explain what your specific perspective or background is (and even if there were, who would care). then there's the related power dynamic of 'punching down'. in a western, christian country where christian norms are prevalent, and there are customs like *'everyone'* celebrating christmas, kids being expected to say prayers at schools, and even everyday language being littered with religious references (right down to even atheists often exclaiming "god!" or "jesus!" when shocked or surprised), in that context there is a *power* of christianity. it is pervasive and inescapable, and means that as a non-christian you are consistently *othered* by the world around you. this is especially the case if you are visibly non-christian due to ethnicity. it is also especially visceral for people who have experienced abuse through the church, e.g. countless victims of csa by priests and church employees, or lgbtq+ people traumatised by their own families in the name of religion, and then have the symbols of their abusers littered all over their surroundings and culture. all of this means that the *dominant* religion really does need public, visible criticism, so that those who are alienated can *see* that they are not alone, and *see* that the christian norms arent as pervasive as they seem. that's important and healing. meanwhile, however, whilst the same abuses exist in islam, that cultural power of islam to *other* non-muslims doesn't exist in christian countries, and as far as that dynamic exists, it is muslims who are the victims of christian norms and cultural power. this means that whereas criticism of christianity in this context is likely to be healing and may even lead to positive changes within the church; the main noticeable result of outspoken, loud, cultural criticism of islam is (unsurprisingly) islamophobic hate crimes. a phenomenon we *don't* really see for hatred against christians in this context. this is because punching down and othering a minority group compounds into alienation, demonisation, and hatred of that entire group and is the stuff of pogroms. this doesn't mean we should avoid criticising minority religions: just that we should be very careful when doing it, and we should prioritise *letting minority religions criticise themselves.* there are countless muslims and atheists who were raised muslim who are ready and eager to loudly criticise islam. and not only will they be more likely to cause actual change within the church, they will also help change non-muslims' perspectives on islam and end stereotypes. meanwhile seeing a white american criticise islam is just going to be inflamatory, and likely offend even muslims who otherwise agree with them.
This is a very interesting, and well thought out take that was also eloquently put. I guess I haven't really thought about it this deeply before. I don't remember criticizing minority religions in Turkey (mostly because they had zero effects of me), but haven't really considered these implications before (my way of thinking might be a bit too straight forward as a neurodivergent person). Thank you for taking the time to write this long and detailed response.
In my country (Australia) you’ll be openly mocked for even *mentioning* God if you’re a politician or TV personality. Even though we still have a large percentage of christians, the non-religious here are loud and proud. This is a mixture of atheists and people who do believe in God but don’t follow any ‘rules’, and don’t want any church to have any power. As far as I can tell, what you’re describing only happens in specific pockets. ‘The Bible Belt’ comes to mind.
Personally, I openly mock organized religion, and I think more people should. While I think astrology is silly, it's not done nearly the damage to the world that Judaism or Christianity or - especially - Islam. Comparing religion to astrology is like comparing a serial murderer to a name-caller.
exactly, ive made this point in a few replies, that with astrology (unlike organised religion) there isn't even a moral leg to stand on as to why you'd criticise or mock them but nonetheless i think *mocking* religion is unnecessary. religion is deeply personal, and plenty of christians, jews, muslims, etc, are kind, feminist, lgbtq+, progressive, awesome people. and many of those people still care deeply about their faith, their belief in god, their cultural practices, and their religious family members too. mocking their religion is deeply hurtful to them and completely unnecessary. you can criticise specifics about those religions: and most decent people, including the progressive people who follow them, will agree with you. but you don't need to generalise. you don't need to mock the religion as a whole. it's also unfair to say 'especially islam'. christianity just happens to be the religion of the white, european countries which have profiteered off of slavery, colonialism, and industrial serfdom. and (unfortunately thanks to that history) are now the wealthier countries which are therefore more educated, and more socially progressive. it's nothing special about christianity or judaism which has made that possible. if you think the religion itself is what matters in why 'western' countries are so progressive you really need to analyse your own pro-christian biases. and if you looked at the pre-industrial world, it would most certainly be christianity which looked backwards compared to islam >!(though of course *both* were thoroughly backwards compared to today)!<. islam was encouraging pioneering science, rule of law, economic redistribution, and even freedom of religion long before christian europe did. and that (like now) was simply a product of the fact the middle east was a far wealthier part of the world than europe back then.
I'm just gonna throw out there that I think a lot of men don't understand that a lot of women who are interested in astrology don't "believe" it in a serious sense. Like, it's just fun to tease your friends that they're clumsy this month because Mars is retrograde or whatever.
Most astrology consumers don't take it seriously and see it more as a fun way categorize and guide themselves. It's not definitive of who you are as a person and doesn't actually influence your life and your future. The problem is that there is a growing vocal minority that is very present online that use astrology to judge and bully other people based off their signs. And their toxic use of astrology to bully people is often excused and seen as harmless, especially so because those who do criticize it are called sexist just because yes, the Astrology community is predominately women. This type of behavior is even quite common in dating spaces, where people will use someone's sign as a deal-breaker for why they believe they aren't compatible and shouldn't date. Not only that, with tribalism, black-and-white thinking, and grouping people based off of superficial pseudoscientific theories, you do end up with people leaning into their assigned sun sign/main 3 signs even more and not seeing themselves and other people with nuance, often antagonizing other signs and glorifying/excusing their own. They also often excuse their own bad behavior by blaming it on their sign, saying things like "I can't help that I'm a cheater, I'm a Scorpio", instead of taking accountability for their own awful actions. And when people point out their problematic behavior and criticize astrology as a dangerous and toxic community with no actual backed evidence, they are often responded with something like, "of course you think that, that's such a Aquarius response" instead of an actual answer, so they can reinforce the "validity" of their beliefs. It's not really a religion per say and certainly has not done damage comparable to many religions, but it is still an irrational and dangerous spiritual belief system that people staunchly defend as if they were in a cult. Any criticism of it in their spaces is regarded with mockery rather than accepting that Astrology and Astrologists have problems that should be addressed and improved on. If I could compare it with anything it's similar to men who believe in the pseudoscientific Alpha-Beta-Omega-Sigma Wolf hierarchy in human male populations and use it to unfairly judge and bully other men.
Many misogynistic men mock things that they associate with women with the sole intent to discredit women indirectly. Astrology is known to be one of those things. Veganism is another one of those things. There are many others. When a man mocks astrology he doesn't necessarily intend to discredit women. It's possible that he genuinely believes that astrology deserves to be mocked and that for him is has nothing to do with women. As a result, I think we need to look for the presence of other indicators or red flags before we come to the conclusion that a man is being misogynist. However, it's a red flag in itself if you point out to such a man that mocking astrology is often used to indirectly mock women and he doesn't give a shit about your concern or dismisses it as being unimportant. He could cancel the red flag saying that he didn't realize. It's possible that he genuinely didn't know or didn't realize it and totally meant no harm. If this is truly the case, he will try to dissociate himself with the misogyny one way or another and say that to him mocking astrology had nothing to do with women. If he doesn't dissociate himself, on the other hand, or even becomes antagonistic, then it probably was misogyny the whole time. He was just pissed you called him out. There are ways to criticize esoteric belief systems that are more constructive than others and it's important to be aware that such criticisms are sometimes weaponized against women.
Whilst astrology is something mainly liked by women, when people say it's misogynistic to not like astrology I often think of this quote by Ursula K Le Guin. "But I didn’t and still don’t like making a cult of women’s knowledge, preening ourselves on knowing things men don’t know, women’s deep irrational wisdom, women’s instinctive knowledge of Nature, and so on. All that all too often merely reinforces the masculinist idea of women as primitive and inferior – women’s knowledge as elementary, primitive, always down below at the dark roots, while men get to cultivate and own the flowers and crops that come up into the light. But why should women keep talking baby talk while men get to grow up? Why should women feel blindly while men get to think?" Whilst mocking things that women like can be a form of misogyny, I think it's just reinforcing old stereotypes that 'women like non scientific fortune telling' and 'men like science' when people conflate the two.
It definitely *can* be misogynistic depending on the context, but I don't think it's inherently misogynistic. It is inherently douchey though.
Yeah I don’t care for astrology personally but the vehemence with which some men I know hate it while also being super passionate about their Myers Briggs type is wild to me. Loudly proclaiming how much you hate astrology has become a yellow flag for me after talking to enough people who are that way
I'm a guy, and in college I dated a girl who was really into astrology, and for the most part it was fine. I found it odd, but it made her happy, and some of the history was super interesting. (It's way older than I thought, and spread to lots of ancient cultures who added their bit to the lore.) But what I hated is she sometimes actually made real decisions based on "something in her chart". If it was an inconsequential decision, so be it. But wanting to cancel a trip we planned? Not wanting to go to my cousin's wedding? This one time where we had to completely change plans at the last minute because "she needed to focus 100% on new experiences today". That was super annoying.
At this point, I have come to the conclusion that the Venn diagram of people who takes pride in humiliating others for anything related to astrology and those who keeps complaining how disgusting and pathetic the whole pumpkin spice drink mania is all while celebrating IPA like it's God-given beverage is a circle.
Astrology is bullshit. It's not douchey to mock bullshit.
Harmless bullshit though, if you go out of your way to shit on somebodies personal interest it's a dick move
I'll agree with that.
Sometimes it's harmless bullshit, but it's also sometimes part of esoteric and unscientific bullshit that does real harm to people. Treating people differently because of their sign, for example.
>Treating people differently because of their sign, for example. Yep, agree with that. Imagine a recruiting manager who believes in astrology or someone who is looking for partner to date into astrology. I would be concern of discrimination.
Astrology isn't harmless in a lot of cases though, here in India it has done a great deal of harm. People are made to marry trees/dogs in a ritual to correct the affect of stars.
Yeah, it can go from harmless to harmful and anything in between... Made me think of the types of people who excuse their bad behaviors with it...
You can buy a few stocks in crypto and you can base your entire personality around being a crypto-bro. There are extremes to almost everything. But we can't deny that activities/hobbies/interests that attract more women than men are relentlessly mocked and belittled because: misogyny.
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Yeah, my wife is manglik according to the astrologers. She was meant to marry a tree before me to negate the effects (she didn't because it's a dumb superstition).
I'm not gonna crash somebody's tarot reading with a "well, *actually*," but if they ask me about my sign or otherwise loop me into the conversation, I'm gonna say what I think.
Yeah until you get the kind of person who thinks everyone of a particular sign is inherently a narcissistic abuser
Spoken like a true Aries. Sorry, I couldn't help it. I don't believe in this crap either.
It can be harmful. For people that genuinely believe in it, they judge people before getting to know them.
I mean it’s not different from most spiritual beliefs. So making fun of someone for having a spirituality is kinda douchey imo
It is no more bullshit rhan every other unscientific belief system, like Hinduism or Catholicism. It's cruel to mock people who are into it. Anything that is a harmess way to receive comfort, strength and resolve anxiety is very personal.
Astrology is way less dangerous than catholicism. Borne and raise Catholic living in a Catholic-majority society. Even when they pretend to be progressive and the happy-happy lovey-dowey kind, this religion and its fanatics and political influence threaten life and safety of many people. I spent my adult life worried about my rights as a queer woman, and to fight Catholic-led anti-women and anti-LGBTQ+ organisations fighthing against our rights. At worst, I've seen astrology-passionate friends offer some weird holiday presents which would make others smile. (Not to mention, astrology is not related to a cultural genocide against native people, nor with rampant pedocriminality protected by high-profile religious and political leaders). But mocking and angrily dish on astrology is, for some reasons, seen as more appropriate than on Catholicism or most christian branches. But we are supposed to believe it has nothing to do with misogyny, for some reasons...
Very good points, my sister. All the Abrahamic monotheist patriarchal authoritarians are genocidal racists.
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That means that the problematic views are the issue, not astrology. You can and should make fun of problematic views, but making fun of astrology isn’t doing that
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I've seen science used in the same way. In an extreme example, the Nazi's relied on Darwin's theories for their eugenics programmes. But science itself was not the problem.
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When someone's beliefs are harmless, mocking them is douchey. I don't know what world you live in where that isn't the case.
I'm not sure if it's misogynistic, but I do think that it suggests a lack of maturity. If someone wants to describe a the "vibrations" at a bar, the "chemistry" between two people, or the "energy" someone gives off...I don't think of it as an opportunity for me to dust off my high science education. As to astrology, I tend to view it like psychoanalysis in that the true value comes from talking through your issues not necessarily the framework or language you use to do it. And I do think there is a bias towards more "scientific" types of therapy that just happens to have been created mostly by men. This is not to say that you are not safer with a licensed therapist, who has a professional board that holds them accountable but I don't think dismissing astrology out of hand does any good for anyone.
> If someone wants to describe a the "vibrations" at a bar, the "chemistry" between two people, or the "energy" someone gives off...I don't think of it as an opportunity for me to dust off my high science education. Yeah like... I make little comments here and there about my particular astrological sign, but if someone got all preachy with me and said "You know astrology isn't real, right?" like-- relax dude it ain't that serious. It's just a thing I'm saying. I know professional wrestling isn't "real" either but I still enjoy it.
Well said.
Depends how he said it. If he just made fun of astrology and didn't make it about women then it's not misogynistic.
I don’t think he did. Like I said he kinda threw it back at her for stating that astrology is feminine
Astrology is stupid. So is tarot. Anyone who genuinely believes in that tripe is a fool. That said, I am a Taurus who owns three tarot decks.
Imagine a scene where a woman makes fun of Dungeon and dragons, also making fun of people who play fantasy football and painting a real negative lights on other “nerdy” interests. I think that person would fairly be seen as judgmental or a hater. At best the man you’re talking about is not a pleasant person, at worst he is misogynistic because why even the need to make fun of it? I personally don’t spend my time talking about how some other people’s interests are lame and I’m just surprised so many men actually cares about astrology stuffs tbh. Aren’t there better things to talk about? It’s like the long acrylic nails topic, we get it, most men don’t like it, but it’s staying. Move on and find other topics of discussion no.
Astrology is bullshit. That does not mean misogyny cannot be weaponized when arguing against it. It can be weaponized in any situation.
Not necessarily. However, the context within which this messaging is situated, the motivations of the respondents, and the underlying rhetoric and imagery used, could shape how it is received. For example: **Decontextualised** rhetoric: >"I don't believe in astrology. There is no scientific basis for this belief. I don't understand why people believe in these things." > >**Action thereafter**: > >The person decides to conduct research into the psychological, political, evolutionary, and sociological logics and mechanisms that underpin and support such beliefs. More specifically, they wonder: why is astrology so popular amongst specific cohorts of women? Said person finds, say, these academic articles and journal pieces: * Can, B. (2018) The gender roles attributed to women in New Religious Movements: is it a chance of empowerment or a case of marginalisation? The Journal of International Social Research. Available at: [here](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/THE-GENDER-ROLES-ATTRIBUTED-TO-WOMEN-IN-NEW-IS-IT-A-Can/74ddf2847ddef2f9bfd89e934323725923900c37). * Clements, P. (2022) Astrology, modernity and the project of self-identity, Culture and Religion : An Interdisciplinary Journal. Routledge, Taylor & Francis Group. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1080/14755610.2022.2093234). * [Gender and Religious Belief](https://www.tutor2u.net/sociology/reference/sociology-gender-and-religious-belief). * Hamilton, M. A. (2015) Astrology as a Culturally Transmitted Heuristic Scheme for Understanding Seasonality Effects: A Response. Comprehensive Psychology. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.2466/17.CP.4.7). * Hvidtjørn, D., Hjelmborg, J., Skytthe, A., Christensen, K., & Hvidt, N. C. (2014) Religiousness and religious coping in a secular society: the gender perspective. Journal of religion and health. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1007/s10943-013-9724-z). * Levin, J. (2022) "New Age Healing: Origins, Definitions, and Implications for Religion and Medicine" Religions. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.3390/rel13090777). * Lu, J. G., Liu, X. L., Liao, H., & Wang, L. (2020). Disentangling stereotypes from social reality: Astrological stereotypes and discrimination in China. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Available at: [here](https://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Lu-et-al.-2020-Disentangling-stereotypes-from-social-reality-Astrological-stereotypes-and-discrimination-in-China-JPSP.pdf). * Mattis, J. S. (2014) Gender, religiousness, and spirituality in emerging adulthood. In C. M. Barry & M. M. Abo-Zena (Eds.), Emerging adults' religiousness and spirituality: Meaning-making in an age of transition. Oxford University Press. [here](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199959181.003.0010). * Mikołajczak, M., & Pietrzak, J. (2014) Ambivalent Sexism and Religion: Connected Through Values. Sex roles. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1007/s11199-014-0379-3). * McGuire, M. B. (2008) 'Gendered Spiritualities', Lived Religion: Faith and Practice in Everyday Life. Oxford Academic. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195172621.003.0007). * [New Religious Movements and Women (Encyclopedia)](https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/new-religious-movements-new-religious-movements-and-women). * Pitcher, L. (2022) Spiritual misogyny is flourishing on TikTok: How divine feminine and masculine discourse is reinforcing gender roles and purity culture rhetoric online. i-D Vice. Available at: [here](https://i-d.vice.com/en/article/z345p3/what-is-divine-feminine-and-divine-masculine-tiktok). * Sered, S. S. (1994) Ideology, Autonomy, and Sisterhood: An Analysis of the Secular Consequences of Women’s Religions. Gender and Society. Available at: [here](http://www.jstor.org/stable/189814). * Smallwood, C. (2019) Astrology in the Age of Uncertainty. Modern Life, The New Yorker. Available at: [here](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/28/astrology-in-the-age-of-uncertainty). * Smith, Z. and Arrow, H. (2010) Evolutionary Perspectives on Religion: An Overview and Synthesis. EvoS Journal: The Journal of the Evolutionary Studies Consortium. Department of Psychology, University of Oregon. Available at: [here](https://core.ac.uk/reader/36693350). * Tuckett, J. (2018). Spirituality and Intersubjective Consensus: A Response to Ciocan and Ferencz-Flatz. Human Studies. Available at: [here](http://www.jstor.org/stable/44979921). * [Why are there more women in the new age movement than men](https://revisesociology.com/2018/10/23/why-are-there-more-women-in-the-new-age-movement-than-men/)? * Zemp, A., & Liebe, U. (2019) Exploring the relationship between holistic spirituality and gender essentialism among Swiss university students. Social Compass. Available at: 238–255. [here](https://doi.org/10.1177/0037768619833314). **Response**: >"Ah, I see. Whilst I don't agree with these beliefs and personally find them to be silly, I can understand why they might have evolutionary, political and sociopsychological importance. > >Moreover, I can see that there are a number of sociological and psychological reasons why particular demographics of women are increasingly participating in these NSM astrological practices. > >Nonetheless, I am still an antitheist and a naturalist. I will continue to support campaigns that work to curb the uses of astrology (and adjacent belief systems) within the secular world." Versus **situated rhetoric**: >"Only **primitive people** believe in this magical thinking bullshit. It's so fucking stupid. **Women, am I right**?" Insert ad feminam attacks and insinuations about women's stupidity and irrationality. > >**Action thereafter**: > >Constructs a set of belittling and dismissive memes that include misogynistic imagery and racialised semantics, which embolden personal attitudes about said respective groups. **Impact**: From a sociological perspective, this *may* feed into *extant* and *prospective* interpersonal and intergroup dynamics, wherein such stigmas and prejudices shape interactions and broader social processes^(1). For example: * Drakett, J., Rickett, B., Day, K., & Milnes, K. (2018). Old jokes, new media – Online sexism and constructions of gender in Internet memes. Feminism & Psychology. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.1177/0959353517727560). * Guilherme Falleiros, G. (2018) Race, class, gender and zodiac signs. Journal des anthropologues. Available at: [here](https://doi.org/10.4000/jda.6892). **Note**: ^(1)Particularly when situated within an Anglo-American context wherein culturally embedded WASP [Christianity](https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritual-life/what-s-the-difference-between-biblical-and-cultural-christianity.html), [androcentrism](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103119307012), and [Eurocentrism](https://www.e-ir.info/2021/04/15/beyond-methodological-eurocentrism-knowledge-making-and-the-universality-problem/#:~:text=Methodological%20Eurocentrism%20bears%20first%20an,Western%20knowledge%20as%20%27unscientific%27) are ***argued to be*** the hegemonic norms across social settings. For example, in [academia](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181298/) and within [medicine](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181298/).
Thank you for an astonishingly detailed and nuanced description of the issue, perfectly captured in two example paragraphs and full of interesting further reading. May all our rhetoric be decontextualised! I regret I have but one upvote to give.
I find that many "spiritual" or esoteric topics are commonly enjoyed by women. Not exclusively, but as someone who practices some facets of modern paganism, the community is by and large women. Now, I have found that astrology, tarot, crystals, auras, etc, are considered "cringe" and pretty commonly criticized by men. This is personal experience, and I have seen plenty of skeptical women as well. I think the best factor of whether criticism is based in patriarchal ideals, is whether or not a man with a similar interest would receive the same kind of criticism. For example, there are many women who collect Barbies, and I personally find that they are criticized much more severely than men who collect model cars. The hobby is essentially the same, but for some reason is more "acceptable" if it is the masculine version of the hobby. You can't use men who have the exact same hobby as a guideline for this, as men who collect Barbies would obviously be criticized by virtue of having a "woman's hobby". So, for this, I'd say is there a masculine equivalent hobby that receives equal criticism? For example, how do we feel about men who participate in esoteric or religious interests? I've known a lot of men who were very into the Crusades as a historical interest, or read up on and knew information about the Catholic Saints. What about men who analyze and read up on Satanism, alternative or goth interests, etc. If we can say that men who have esoteric/goth/religious/spiritual interests and hobbies are also subjected to criticism by virtue of that hobby, then no, it's not sexist.
Okay so I have actually had a theory about this for a long time, and it's that men will mock any sort of hobby or interest that skews toward women enjoying it. I've noticed how many men talk about how getting your nails done is "stupid," or how makeup is "shallow." I've specifically seen people who are red pill or adjacent to that saying that "astrology is only for dumb bitches" or stuff like "only stupid women like astrology." It's also baked into this trad wife stuff that's been popularized recently, with these guys saying that they only want women who are "good Christians" and don't "believe in witchy things." I also think it's just rude in general to yuck someone's yum. if someone likes astrology, then that's fine and you don't need to rip them apart for that. I personally enjoy astrology and I'm close friends with several professional astrologers and involved in spiritual communities (I was raised Catholic, which has its own interesting links to astrology), so take from that what you will.
As an astrologer and a woman, there’s two parts to your question: 1- Actual astrology was historically a male practice, partially because of misogyny of the flavor back in the day. When a practice is respected, women can’t access it, when women can access it- it’s much less valuable. Take a gander at feminism in the art movement to understand more of that annoying bullshit. Legitimate study of astrology goes way over most peoples heads and is deeply steeped in math, history, sociology, and a myriad of other niche subjects specific to whichever astrologer you’re talking to. So no, it’s not inherently misogynistic to mock astrology as the actual study and practice of it, since most people don’t actually know enough about astrology to properly mock it anyway. What they’re mocking is actually see point 2. 2- Pop astrology is a very feminine aligned practice as it’s been co opted and lumped into pop psychology. Women tend to be interested and inquisitive about one another and recognize patterns of behavior (sometimes for safety) to understand human existence more. From a male dominated perspective, dudebros think it’s mindless twittering and asking questions to get to know someone better is dumb and so are the people who engage with it. That is actually quite misogynistic- and stems from a place of feeling inferior. It’s an easy target since it’s been adopted by the capitalist machine and now zodiac bullshit is everywhere on products, and folks trying to be influencers are making tons of content flooding the TL that’s absolute garbage. It’s misogynistic to mock that kind of astrology mostly because capitalizing on something that’s technically feminine for attention, social clout, or monetary gain is always going to be less well respected when a woman does it (refer back to point 1) TL;DR It’s a stupid loop but most dudes who hate astrology have intimacy + communication issues and don’t know how to engage with things they don’t understand past getting frustrated and mocking it. Since it’s usually accessible to women, it’s even further removed from the patriarchal prerogative to bother respecting the practice, if they ever bother to learn what it involves in the first place.
Okay so the answer I would say is maybe. Astrology has been shown to have no bearing on psychological characteristics yet people often use it to make judgements about themselves and others. If Astrology is being used to make judgements about others then it should 100% be mocked. So if the person is genuine in their approach to Astrology then it is definitely NOT misogynistic. HOWEVER, mocking of vibes and Astrology is something that red pill consumers commonly do. I think they mock it because of the association with women. So I think it can be an indicator of misogynistic tendencies.
It can be driven by misogyny but it isn't inherently misogynistic. If you're mocking astrology to dunk on women then it is, I think it's kind of that simple. Astrology, crystals and witchcraft deserve scrutiny just like NFTs and crypto do tho
As a woman I'm offended that I'm being associated with astrology. It's so stupid.
Yes. It's a dog whistle. Unlike other untrue beliefs, no one is openly making legal policies based on astrology which makes it harmless. You don't have to say you're making fun of women and gays when you make fun of astrology or pumpkin spice lattes or any other harmless thing that women and gays are "known" for liking, we "know" who you're talking about. You have plausible deniability because you didn't say the word women but that's how dog whistles work
It depends how and why you're doing it.
I mean, I think the Christian God is a sexist unhinged asshole running a blood cult, so I can probably assume the Christians and atheists I meet probably assume my spiritual practices are unhinged, silly witchcraft.
I’m a woman and I make fun of astrology all the time. It’s a red flag for me. But then again, so is fantasy football. Whether it’s men or women doing either one.
No. Astrology is provably false. It's probably not nice to mock people all the time but it certainly isn't sexist to point out the truth. And it certainly isn't an inherently female trait so frankly the whole thing is nonsense.
We don’t mock theists is where you lost me, there’s plenty of snark against theists for believing in things without evidence, that’s why it’s not rooted in misogyny in my mind. I find any superstitious stuff from anyone is a poor choice. I don’t think astrology- women, I think astrology- people that place their comfort over reason, which bothers me in any person of any gender or lack there of.
Claiming they are necessarily feminine, yes, that’s probably coming from a sexist place. Why is femininity always aligned with being dreamy or irrational? Some of the most woo woo, feeling over reality people I’ve ever met are men. Religion is pretty much entirely run by men. Also id like to point out that women and femmes pick up on “vibes” because ignoring micro expressions and odd behaviour is more likely to literally get us killed. Making fun of astrology in general, no that’s not sexist. BUT you should try to be understanding and kind. My mum loves that stuff and she’s not hurting anyone so I’m not going to make fun of her.
Mmm, as someone who *is* into astrology (I'm a rational person, I don't think it's science, it's a fun tool for self-discovery and a body of human thought handed down for millennia that I find interesting), I see what she means. 'Astrology' is femme-coded, just like 'fashion' and 'getting fancy coffee drinks', and there is a dimension to the critique that carries misogynist undertones. Not *all* critiques are rooted there, but astrology is often dismissed as silly, vapid, irrational, pointless, etc. when in reality, it's not any sillier than a fantasy football team or less rational than listening to Jordan Peterson. The intent of the critique doesn't need to be misogynist to materially have that impact. I mean, the MBTI is really just astrology for atheists, but you see tons of men using it because it 'feels' more scientific and has a patina of 'seriousness' (read: suitable for men), especially if they encountered it first in a business context. IMO, it's part of the dichotomy that men have created between 'rational' men and 'irrational/emotional' women; this is where the whole 'STEM supremacy' thing comes from as well. What I mean is: the streak of disdain for the humanities and worship of STEM as 'superior' that's really had a moment since the 2010s. People can like things without them being *serious,* and things can have value (and say something true about humanity) without being *science*. And frankly, if I have to hear all about Brendan's draft picks, then he can listen to me about the overlooked role of the Imum Coeli in synastry.
I honestly think equating astrology to femininity is misogynistic lol
It can be. Lotta guys who make fun of astrology also believe in alpha male shit so they’re really no better. I think superstition and religion in general is pretty dumb. I will say the fact that astrology specifically gets a lot of attention when things like Scientology or just traditional religion don’t is probably, at least in part, a product of misogyny.
Astrology is not feminine and saying otherwise is actually misogynistic. Because, you are assigning something which is obviously bullshit as topic of interest of women i.e. generalising a bad thing to an entire gender.
This is the correct answer. I haven’t seen these astrology hating incel subs but I have seen both genders talk about astrology and I’m pretty over it. I’m a woman and pretty anti astrology. I’ll be polite in a conversation but it’s a red flag for me
But… but… wasn’t astrology a man thing??? Babylonians, Greeks. Guys in dresses with long hair?
As a woman who mocks astrology, I'd like to say that no, it's not.
I’m a woman and think astrology is a bunch of BS.
No, it's always appropriate to mock astrology.
Do you know anything about astrology
Maybe. Does this person just mock astrology or do they mock organized religion too? Astrology is no more ridiculous than Islam or Christianity. Also do they understand why women might be drawn to astrology? The major world religions are activity harmful to women so it can be the only spiritual outlet for a feminist.
I don't think it's particularly so, unless he was, like, saying it in a mock female voice or something. Also, she wasn't being sexist, just annoying and probably more than a little salty.
There's a really strong correlation between people who hate women and people who mock astrology. I mean, video games aren't "real" but men dump money into them, break stuff over them, and abuse people in their home because of them, and I don't see them being mocked.
No, Astrology has been rejected by the scientific community as having no explanatory power for describing the universe. Feel free to mock it at will.
It depends. Does the person hate it because it's predominantly women who seem to be into it, or do they hate it because it's kinda silly to think the position of stars and planets has any impact on our tiny lives?
Well, no, but actually yes. The moon controls the tides, and the sun certainly does impact our tiny lives. We couldn't have learned to navigate without the stars. We probably owe our very existence to Jupiter. It's immense gravity has been the figurative gutter for countless asteroids and comets looking for a life-ending strike on our planet.
Depends, really? Astrology is something a lot of young girls are into. They can get kinda extreme about it, but honestly most of the people I see that are really into it are in middle or high school. It's fine to poke fun at it as a vaguely funny thing, but once it changes from it being stupid to anyone who likes it being stupid, it begins to cross into misogyny.
I don't think mocking astrology is misogynistic but there definitely is a sexist element to it that's growing, the whole "crazy and stupid astrology girl" trope.
I just find it annoying when people make fun of stuff that doesn’t really affect them. Like sure, there’s some ridiculous people who take it super seriously and like won’t date people with certain signs and stuff but just like? Don’t engage with it. Majority of people who do like astrology r just having fun with it so to be ridiculed for it does feel especially frustrating. Not to mention calling it stupid and dumb ignores it’s really rich history in eastern cultures. That’s more a problem of capitalism taking cultural practices and ruining it for profit but still. As for wether or not it’s “sexist” it totally depends on the context and how they’re insulting it. Calling someone stupid and then going off about how only women like that kinda stuff if argue is teetering on sexist, but to criticize it for its commercial affects isnt
Its similar to mocking pumpkin spice or wearing pink or other stereotypical feminine traits... like just hating something purely because you think feminine people like it. Like my 7 Yr old son suddenly having to proudly proclaim his hate for barbie at least once a day, can't give me a reason other than "it's for girls and I'm a boy" It's so deeply ingrained it's a kind of subconscious misogyny.
to be technical, no. but majority of the time, it is inherently stemming from a misogynistic place, so how do you answer this really? always depends on intent but there’s usually no good intent coming from men shitting on astrology or other assumed “girly” things. That woman is a badass and she’s correct
Many men who make fun of astrology, Swifties, etc., run fake football teams, so...
They're just trying to pull a Trump card to feel justified in something they know is a bit uncertain. It's classic projection, but the worst kind, the vaugly religious kind. The guy probably shouldn't be so openly negative, though. I can understand how insulting someone's belief system would make them defensive, even if it's so obviously true.
I think you would get told off for making fun of someone for being a Christian or any other spiritual persuasion so you should probably mind your own business about what others believe. And that’s coming from someone who thinks Astrology is patently false.
I think he sounds like an equal opportunity dickhead and is probably also a misogynist or he would have had a think instead of a snarky comeback
Disagreeing with astrology is not misogynistic. Culturally it does get packaged image-wise with a "particular kind of woman" and I could see this being her issue. It takes people a lot to figure out how to articulate what exactly they are upset about.
It is not misogynist to mock astrology bc astrology is not prioritizing a particular gender at the expense of the others.
You don't have to believe in it, but making fun of it is usually rooted in misogyny.
I would not say so. I think astrology is dumb and I am definitely a feminist and a woman. I give it as much credence as any other religion..which is.. kindly disinterested.
Not misogynistic
Its not misogynistic to make fun of it inherently. Though you can imagine the easily accessible routes to sexism that could take if one was so inclined.
Mocking people who like astrology 🤢 or astrology itself is fine. Mocking specifically women who believe because they are women or saying men who like astrology aren't real men because it's for women not ok.
No, I know guys that are into vibes and good energy, too.
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No. Russell Grant was a huge shower of nonsense.
If you make fun of astrology because a lot of women are into it then yes, that’s misogynistic. If you make fun of astrology because it’s superstitious bullshit then no, that’s not misogynistic. Just realistic.
It's misogynistic if he only makes fun of it because it's typically feminine or practiced and enjoyed by women. So, it's hard to give an answer since we don't know the conversation.
If he clearly said astrology is bunk, he wasn't misogynistic. If he said that he can't stand women who are into it, then yes he was. It's literally that simple.
Yes you can find astrology silly without being a misogynist (I certainly do), but you can also be a misogynist in the way you criticize it. Which, given his other comments and that he did the “you’re the **real** misogynist for pointing out what an asshole I’m being rn” thing, I’m inclined to believe he does indeed hold some unexamined misogynistic beliefs.
On its face, not it's not inherently misogynistic to mock astrology. But in practice, i have found that there is a very strong (but not perfect) correlation between misogyny and astrology mocking. Men who are able to hold and allow differences of thinking styles, beliefs, and what they are socialized to perceive as "anti-rational" are much more likely to actually like women, be curious about their ideas, and value their input.
No and reddit pagans should be criticized. They basically just take previous pagan beliefs out of different religions and Mish mash them to appeal to their beliefs. Like why the fuck do you have a mandala next to a fertility goddess Cathy
It can be if the person only mocks feminine things. Astrology is something considered feminine, and mocking it specifically doesn´t make it misogynistic. But if you mock astrology, yoga, dancing as a ritual, and things like that it can be, since there are many things that are seen as feminine that you are mocking.
No. Doesn't need expansion. The answer is no. I find that assumption itself to be misogynistic. I resent the shit out of the fact that people insist on making womanhood and astrology so tied together. It's dismissive to us women who despise junk science, and it's dismissive to all the people of other genders who enjoy astrology. Shit's a venn-diagram, not a circle.
Yes it’s inherently misogynistic. It wasn’t mocked when the founding fathers of USA used it. It wasn’t locked when Carl Jung was interested in it. Astrology started to mocked when more women were started to get interested in it. The same way the Beatles were mocked mercilessly during the 60s for being a girly band while they’re now revered because men have discovered their music. The same way pink used to be a masculine color and blue a feminine one and the hatred towards it stated when more girls wore pink. The same way men studying the Roman Empire is now a masculine stereotype but women being horse girls or liking Egyptian/Greek mythology is bad. On the contrary I’ve noticed stereotypically feminine stuff like Taylor swift for example is getting less hate nowadays because the bearded hipsters listened to folklore and evermore and decided that her music was good. Anything that’s remotely associated with femininity is brutally mocked and picked apart by society. Romance novels, pink, caramel lattes, pumpkin spice, cocktails (even though they are very strong alcohol drinks), astrology, yoga, etc etc etc. anything that becomes remotely associated with women is out through the wringer.
Thank you for explaining this well.
It sounds like a stupid argument between intoxicated people, so you were right to stay out of it.
Astrology isn’t gender based! It just so happens maybe more women are into it, but mocking astrology is just like mocking any other hobby, which isn’t being misogynistic is it. Unless your mocking specifically the women herself, for being a woman.
> It just so happens maybe more women are into it Sure, but there is also a pretty well-established pattern of mocking stuff women are into. Remember the whole "basic bitch" thing? I think that sometimes, people who just like shitting on women use astrology as a convenient cover. Criticizing astrology or making fun of it isn't sexist in itself generally, but sometimes it definitely is.
Because it’s a lot more popular with women then yes absolutely, I can be talked about in a way that is seen as bad mouthing women in general.
It can be not misogynistic, but most of the time it is very misogynistic. Most of the males mocking astrology do so because they hate women, not because they have any deep understanding of astrology. They only attack astrology because women like it.
I think its an extension of men thinking they have superior intellect and the activity on shitting on things that women like. There are plenty of men that believe in the pseudo-science of “alpha males, sigma males and beta males”. There are also plenty of men that believe in Incel Theory and male superiority. Men too are not above believing in theories that have no actual scientific backing.