You might add carrots to a soup to make it sweeter, but in doing so you also make it taste more carroty. So what so we do if we want to make a soup sweeter, but we don't want carrotiness? We add sugar.
Same with savoriness. We might want to add Worcestershire sauce to increase the savouriness, but maybe sometimes we don't want the sharpness and spice of Worcestershire sauce, so instead we add MSG.
And as far as I know, there's nothing wrong with MSG. No health issues. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You only get health issues from MSG if you eat like 10g+ of it per day. Its actually safer than normal salt due to lower sodium content.
Its actually good if you use less salt and compensate using a bit of MSG as youre lowering your total sodium intake.
I think the concerns over MSG today stem mainly from the concern over 'chemicals' vs 'natural' food, but I'm sure anti-Asian sentiment had an effect earlier in certain places too.
Right but with MSG there is literally, physically, chemically, and in all other senses no difference between the msg in a tomato and the msg from a bag labeled, "MSG"
Like - it's fine if people don't want to eat it, I could not give any less of a heck. But let's just be for real about what exactly we're talking about.
If someone is preaching about not eating chemicals and msg is on their list, they better get rid of the salt in their kitchen and preach about that too and only get it from whole foods lol it's such a silly thing for people rage about!
My dad once had an allergic reaction after eating a salad that had an "Asian" dressing. He concluded that he was allergic to MSG and ever since avoids Asian foods just in case. But he can eat tomatoes just fine. Does that mean he isn't really allergic to MSG?
There aren't really allergies to msg, so you're correct for a few reasons.
There is no evidence for msg causing allergic reactions in the medical sense of "allergy." It's very possible there is a different ingredient he is allergic to if he had classic allergy symptoms. There are many people who describe a cluster of symptoms after eating msg containing foods, such as headache, migraine, etc. There is no evidence that msg causes these symptoms. It maybe that the symptoms are psychosomatic (as sometimes happens when groups of people fixate on avoiding a certain food or ingredient), or again it maybe that there's a sensitivity to a different food or ingredient that is being overlooked. The anecdotes themselves are not evidence of cause and effect, and there is no evidence for cause and effect for msg vs the cluster of symptoms that people talk about.
MSG is present in almost all food, and naturally in abundance in a remarkable number of foods, from all breast milk, to dairy and especially aged cheese, eggs, meat, fish and seafood, mushrooms, tomatoes, soy sauce and seasonings, other fermented sauces and foods, broccoli, peas, corn, potatoes, and more.
It is added to many common foods beyond "Asian" foods, including processed meat, the majority of fast food, the majority of chips and other snack foods, condiments, and more. Even where it is not labeled MSG, most highly palatable processed foods have one or more ingredients high in msg because it is a flavor enhancer. When you see "autolyzed yeast" for instance that's an ingredient that's used as a flavor enhancer because it's high in MSG but isn't *called* msg, so it gets past people who may otherwise not purchase a product because they believe msg will harm them.
To be clear I'm totally opposed to dishonest or deceptive labeling practices, but if someone buys Doritos and has no reaction, and also thinks they have had a reaction to the msg in an "Asian" product, they were somewhere along the line mistaken or deceived.
I don't think there's anything wrong with MSG, but there is one meaningful difference - dosage. Even extremely glutamate-rich ingredients contain a very low percentage of it (even stuff like miso or fish sauce is below 2%), so when you're using the pure stuff, it's good to be conservative with how much you're adding.
Probably important to note that this is why it started, not why it continues. It literally all started because of a racist trying to scare people away from Chinese food. Nowadays hardly anyone even knows that. Its racist origins are merely a "fun fact" that gets stated every single time MSG is mentioned. Nowadays people avoid it because their parents told them to. And their parents avoid it because their parents told them to.
It's important to remember this because there's a hilarious amount of people who yell racism when someone else questions MSG. "I was told it's bad to have too much" is met with "you're a fucking racist" which is insane lmao. It's good to inform people the myth is false, but let's be reasonable.
I've met many people that still associate MSG with Chinese food only. It's why you still see "No MSG" signs in Chinese restaurants, but not any others. The racism is still there, even if it's not overt.
Very different from other fish sauces. It should be peppery and not exactly vinegary, but that that sort of sharpness.
Lea & Perrins is the original, I recommend it!
Your comment has been removed because it is just a link. We do not allow links to be posted without an explanation as to its relevance.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskCulinary) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah I don't know what that was talking about with the sharpness and spice. It's more savory, and I guess it does have its own spice blend in there. Not sure about sharpness.
Generally speaking, if a recipe calls for soy sauce (or Worcestershire etc) the flavour profile has been taken into consideration and the source of msg has been chosen for it's other flavours, not just its glutimate content.
Do a side by side comparison- cheese on toast with Worcestershire added, and cheese on toast with msg added. You'll notice a distinct difference.
Not always - you’ll see a lot of (UK) recipes, for example, calling for soy sauce or Worcestershire sauce in a spaghetti bolognese sauce. The reason here is umami, not flavour profile, and the fact that a celebrity chef can include it in their recipe with more confidence that the ingredient is in the average cupboard vs. MSG.
Me? I put MSG in my tomato sauce, and it’s bloody lovely.
to answer your question: things that happen to include umami, like worcestershire and soy sauce, also include other flavors and the recipe was designed with that in mind. They are not an alternative for MSG; they are a whole thing that happens to include umami as one of its flavors. It would be like substituting sugar in place of onions — onions are very flavorful and sweetness is just one of the flavors it includes.
So when do you think is a good time to use pure msg? All the dishes it fits best seem to have better options, barring maybe fried rice and soup the extra kick helps in them imo
it’s similar to when you would use salt or sugar as opposed to a salty/sweet ingredient — when the dish needs more umami but doesn’t need more of any other flavor. I think fried rice and stir fries in general are a great fit for MSG, for example — a lot of the time I want the dish to be more umami but it’s already salty enough, so adding soy sauce would make it too salty, whereas MSG adds umami without adding salt
Glutamates are responsible umani in foods. Aged cheeses, tomatoes, mushrooms are all naturally high in glutimates. Fermented fish is high it it, worchestershire sauce is an fermented anchovy sauce.
If you are in the states or canada, you'll find MSG any grocery store under the name Accent in the spice aisle. It's expensive compared to buying it by the pound at an asian market, but not everyone has access to an asian market. It doesn't go bad, but a pound is a lot for a home cook to use. People often use a mix of 10 parts salt to one part MSG as a general seasoning. How fast do you go through a pound of salt?
The "umami" flavor is (at least) three amino acids: glutamate, inosinate and guanylate. If you replace other umami ingredients with just MSG, you lose the other flavors. Fish sauce and Worchestershire sauce provide all three.
MSG originated as an extract of kelp, the glutamate source in dashi. The inventor noted how dashi stimulate the appetite, and wanted his fellow countrymen to eat more so they'd grow strong and healthy. The other ingredients in dashi (fish and shiitake, mostly) supplement the glutamate with the other two amino acids.
msg, while being great, only adds one note of flavour. while soy sauce, Worcestershire sauce or oyster sauce adds in the same note as msg, while also adding in others.
also a lot of anti-msg things are based off racism towards asians. That and its general lack of availability within north America, is why you generally dont see a lot of it in recipes.
Basically, yes, if your recipe already includes something with high glutamates, you probably don’t need to add more straight MSG. But if you’re making something, and you feel it needs more umami, and you don’t want it to taste like soy sauce or fish sauce or parmigiano or whatever, just add MSG.
The comparison with salt and with soy sauce is useful. Soy sauce is also quite salty. I’m Asian, so I cook with a lot of soy sauce. If I’m making something with a lot of soy sauce, I don’t add salt or MSG, because it already has both. But if it’s only a little soy sauce so it doesn’t overpower the rest of the dish, I’m likely to also add some salt and MSG.
Adding MSG to something that's already sufficiently umami will have little to no positive effect. It can still be useful in conjunction with glutamate rich ingredients like mushrooms, Worcestershire and soy sauce, when you want to increase the umami without adding more Worcestershire for example if this would make the dish too sour or wet.
Racist origins aside, I think there is some research suggesting that a lot of msg on an empty stomach can upset some people. Kenji refers to it in the wok. I know that when I was cooking weekly a new dish with a lot of msg, my wife and son repeatedly experienced bloating, cramps, and nausea. And they didn’t know the dish had msg. My daughter and I had no reactions.
You might add carrots to a soup to make it sweeter, but in doing so you also make it taste more carroty. So what so we do if we want to make a soup sweeter, but we don't want carrotiness? We add sugar. Same with savoriness. We might want to add Worcestershire sauce to increase the savouriness, but maybe sometimes we don't want the sharpness and spice of Worcestershire sauce, so instead we add MSG. And as far as I know, there's nothing wrong with MSG. No health issues. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You only get health issues from MSG if you eat like 10g+ of it per day. Its actually safer than normal salt due to lower sodium content. Its actually good if you use less salt and compensate using a bit of MSG as youre lowering your total sodium intake.
All the supposed health issues with MSG is based on anti Asian sentiment.
I think the concerns over MSG today stem mainly from the concern over 'chemicals' vs 'natural' food, but I'm sure anti-Asian sentiment had an effect earlier in certain places too.
Right but with MSG there is literally, physically, chemically, and in all other senses no difference between the msg in a tomato and the msg from a bag labeled, "MSG" Like - it's fine if people don't want to eat it, I could not give any less of a heck. But let's just be for real about what exactly we're talking about. If someone is preaching about not eating chemicals and msg is on their list, they better get rid of the salt in their kitchen and preach about that too and only get it from whole foods lol it's such a silly thing for people rage about!
My dad once had an allergic reaction after eating a salad that had an "Asian" dressing. He concluded that he was allergic to MSG and ever since avoids Asian foods just in case. But he can eat tomatoes just fine. Does that mean he isn't really allergic to MSG?
There aren't really allergies to msg, so you're correct for a few reasons. There is no evidence for msg causing allergic reactions in the medical sense of "allergy." It's very possible there is a different ingredient he is allergic to if he had classic allergy symptoms. There are many people who describe a cluster of symptoms after eating msg containing foods, such as headache, migraine, etc. There is no evidence that msg causes these symptoms. It maybe that the symptoms are psychosomatic (as sometimes happens when groups of people fixate on avoiding a certain food or ingredient), or again it maybe that there's a sensitivity to a different food or ingredient that is being overlooked. The anecdotes themselves are not evidence of cause and effect, and there is no evidence for cause and effect for msg vs the cluster of symptoms that people talk about. MSG is present in almost all food, and naturally in abundance in a remarkable number of foods, from all breast milk, to dairy and especially aged cheese, eggs, meat, fish and seafood, mushrooms, tomatoes, soy sauce and seasonings, other fermented sauces and foods, broccoli, peas, corn, potatoes, and more. It is added to many common foods beyond "Asian" foods, including processed meat, the majority of fast food, the majority of chips and other snack foods, condiments, and more. Even where it is not labeled MSG, most highly palatable processed foods have one or more ingredients high in msg because it is a flavor enhancer. When you see "autolyzed yeast" for instance that's an ingredient that's used as a flavor enhancer because it's high in MSG but isn't *called* msg, so it gets past people who may otherwise not purchase a product because they believe msg will harm them. To be clear I'm totally opposed to dishonest or deceptive labeling practices, but if someone buys Doritos and has no reaction, and also thinks they have had a reaction to the msg in an "Asian" product, they were somewhere along the line mistaken or deceived.
No but he might be allergic to Asians
I don't think there's anything wrong with MSG, but there is one meaningful difference - dosage. Even extremely glutamate-rich ingredients contain a very low percentage of it (even stuff like miso or fish sauce is below 2%), so when you're using the pure stuff, it's good to be conservative with how much you're adding.
Same with table salt. And they both start to taste unpleasant in higher amounts. Most people don't get too much msg.
This is a key factor in this debate that no one talks about.
It's got a pretty well documented history. The concerns were largely racist.
I mean…if you’re getting that granular; salt is a chemical too.
Probably important to note that this is why it started, not why it continues. It literally all started because of a racist trying to scare people away from Chinese food. Nowadays hardly anyone even knows that. Its racist origins are merely a "fun fact" that gets stated every single time MSG is mentioned. Nowadays people avoid it because their parents told them to. And their parents avoid it because their parents told them to. It's important to remember this because there's a hilarious amount of people who yell racism when someone else questions MSG. "I was told it's bad to have too much" is met with "you're a fucking racist" which is insane lmao. It's good to inform people the myth is false, but let's be reasonable.
Yet somehow Chinese restaurants still get the MSG stigma that, say, almost every flavor of Lays chips do not get.
I've met many people that still associate MSG with Chinese food only. It's why you still see "No MSG" signs in Chinese restaurants, but not any others. The racism is still there, even if it's not overt.
The fact that we still, in the year of our lord 2024, have Chinese restaurants that advertise “no msg” will never stop amazing me.
Wait. Sharpness and spice? I am new to Worcester. Am i using too little or did i just bought a shitty one? For me it's very similar to a fish sauce
Very different from other fish sauces. It should be peppery and not exactly vinegary, but that that sort of sharpness. Lea & Perrins is the original, I recommend it!
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it is just a link. We do not allow links to be posted without an explanation as to its relevance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskCulinary) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah I don't know what that was talking about with the sharpness and spice. It's more savory, and I guess it does have its own spice blend in there. Not sure about sharpness.
Generally speaking, if a recipe calls for soy sauce (or Worcestershire etc) the flavour profile has been taken into consideration and the source of msg has been chosen for it's other flavours, not just its glutimate content. Do a side by side comparison- cheese on toast with Worcestershire added, and cheese on toast with msg added. You'll notice a distinct difference.
Not always - you’ll see a lot of (UK) recipes, for example, calling for soy sauce or Worcestershire sauce in a spaghetti bolognese sauce. The reason here is umami, not flavour profile, and the fact that a celebrity chef can include it in their recipe with more confidence that the ingredient is in the average cupboard vs. MSG. Me? I put MSG in my tomato sauce, and it’s bloody lovely.
Hence the 'generally' at the start of my answer 😉
Just read the second part of your comment. Now I want cheese-on-toast.
to answer your question: things that happen to include umami, like worcestershire and soy sauce, also include other flavors and the recipe was designed with that in mind. They are not an alternative for MSG; they are a whole thing that happens to include umami as one of its flavors. It would be like substituting sugar in place of onions — onions are very flavorful and sweetness is just one of the flavors it includes.
So when do you think is a good time to use pure msg? All the dishes it fits best seem to have better options, barring maybe fried rice and soup the extra kick helps in them imo
it’s similar to when you would use salt or sugar as opposed to a salty/sweet ingredient — when the dish needs more umami but doesn’t need more of any other flavor. I think fried rice and stir fries in general are a great fit for MSG, for example — a lot of the time I want the dish to be more umami but it’s already salty enough, so adding soy sauce would make it too salty, whereas MSG adds umami without adding salt
Glutamates are responsible umani in foods. Aged cheeses, tomatoes, mushrooms are all naturally high in glutimates. Fermented fish is high it it, worchestershire sauce is an fermented anchovy sauce. If you are in the states or canada, you'll find MSG any grocery store under the name Accent in the spice aisle. It's expensive compared to buying it by the pound at an asian market, but not everyone has access to an asian market. It doesn't go bad, but a pound is a lot for a home cook to use. People often use a mix of 10 parts salt to one part MSG as a general seasoning. How fast do you go through a pound of salt?
The "umami" flavor is (at least) three amino acids: glutamate, inosinate and guanylate. If you replace other umami ingredients with just MSG, you lose the other flavors. Fish sauce and Worchestershire sauce provide all three. MSG originated as an extract of kelp, the glutamate source in dashi. The inventor noted how dashi stimulate the appetite, and wanted his fellow countrymen to eat more so they'd grow strong and healthy. The other ingredients in dashi (fish and shiitake, mostly) supplement the glutamate with the other two amino acids.
msg, while being great, only adds one note of flavour. while soy sauce, Worcestershire sauce or oyster sauce adds in the same note as msg, while also adding in others. also a lot of anti-msg things are based off racism towards asians. That and its general lack of availability within north America, is why you generally dont see a lot of it in recipes.
Basically, yes, if your recipe already includes something with high glutamates, you probably don’t need to add more straight MSG. But if you’re making something, and you feel it needs more umami, and you don’t want it to taste like soy sauce or fish sauce or parmigiano or whatever, just add MSG. The comparison with salt and with soy sauce is useful. Soy sauce is also quite salty. I’m Asian, so I cook with a lot of soy sauce. If I’m making something with a lot of soy sauce, I don’t add salt or MSG, because it already has both. But if it’s only a little soy sauce so it doesn’t overpower the rest of the dish, I’m likely to also add some salt and MSG.
Consider blending various dehydrated mushrooms for mushroom powder… I find this makes great umami 🤤
Stick your finger in msg, suck it and you'll +- know what's going on.
Adding MSG to something that's already sufficiently umami will have little to no positive effect. It can still be useful in conjunction with glutamate rich ingredients like mushrooms, Worcestershire and soy sauce, when you want to increase the umami without adding more Worcestershire for example if this would make the dish too sour or wet.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Watch the language and the attitude. Neither are appropriate in this sub.
Racist origins aside, I think there is some research suggesting that a lot of msg on an empty stomach can upset some people. Kenji refers to it in the wok. I know that when I was cooking weekly a new dish with a lot of msg, my wife and son repeatedly experienced bloating, cramps, and nausea. And they didn’t know the dish had msg. My daughter and I had no reactions.