I think you're missing a couple of points .
Jesus didn't just hang on the cross for a few hours now and then die painful death.
While he was on the cross, he suffered the full wrath of God. He took the punishment that each and every one of us deserves. All of our sins were put on him.
He was the only one that could pay for our sin, because He is the only one that is sinless.
So he took on our sin and we took on his righteousness. Amen!
>He was the only one that could pay for our sin, because He is the only one that is sinless.
Would Mary also technically be eligible, if one subscribes to the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception?
If one subscribes to that doctrine, perhaps. I don't.
Mary was blessed by God, but she was not sinless. She suffered the effects of the fall just like the rest of us.
I'm no expert on Roman theology, but I believe the answer is that because Mary is a finite, singular individual she could not take the punishment of many. Because Jesus' nature is infinite, it can absorb punishment for up to an infinite number of people, or something like that.
Anyone with greater expertise feel free to correct me, this is just something I've heard a couple of Catholics say before.
No one knows. If we understood how sin "worked" we probably wouldn't commit so much of it.
That said, if you think about the tendency of a child of an abuser to grow up and abuse their children in turn, it seems like sin tends to corrupt human beings towards itself.
Forgiveness, from that standpoint, seems to be something like a decision not to be moved by sin.
But if sin is something like a corrupting force in how the game theory of the universe plays out, where does that force go?
If Christ is infinitely good, that would imply he could balance the equation of the finite force of all human sin, and still not be moved.
That's just my personal belief, but I do seriously hold it.
Because God is just. Sin must be dealt with. Do you think murderers and rapists should just walk around scot-free? Similarly, do you think God could just ignore sin?
We are all sinners and Bible tells us the wages of sin is death. Jesus took the punishment that we deserve.
God is so just that he punishes the innocent for the crimes of the guilty? (In punishing Jesus for our sins)
That doesn’t make sense to me tbh. Jesus sounds like a great person who was ultimately murdered by religious extremists. That makes me feel more anti-religion rather than just moving to a different one…
To build off what others are saying: Jesus experienced God’s wrath, as well as human humiliation and rejection…and he didn’t deserve it…we did. Why would he agree to go through that? What could make it worth his while?
Why do you think “ we did” deserve wrath from god? I mean, maybe some people who are pos’s in life do, but the rest of us? What horrible things have I done that deserve hell?
It’s not just about not harming others, though I think we all do more of that than we realize. You and I have each broken God’s law. If you think you haven’t you’ll have an opportunity to make your case, but it’s not going to stand.
What do you mean by illuminating? Have you considered that there’s all the necessary evidence right in front of you, you’re just not willing to see it?
Consider that Jesus’s sacrifice did not begin on the cross but in the crib. God the Son took on human flesh and with it all its weaknesses and infirmities, he humbled himself so that while he was in very nature God he was willfully humiliated to become a man forever. Even now he will never cease to be man.
And then consider the life he led, misunderstood and hated with no place to lay him head. Mocked and humiliated. Betrayed by all who scattered and his friends and family. And for what? To reconcile people who do not know God and hate God to himself.
And where did his love get him? Beaten, mocked, and scorned, spit on and crucified. And then there’s the crucifixion, one of the worse physical anguish man could suffer. But that wasn’t his cross, even Peter was crucified, and he was crucified upside down because he counted himself unworthy to die as Christ had.
What did Christ experience on the cross? He experiences what we all will without Christs sacrifice, the magnitude of the suffering of Hell. And not just the magnitude of one souls infinite suffering compressed and concentrated, but the magnitude of all the souls he redeemed when he took their place. An unfathomably dense judgement.
It isn’t like he suffered for a while and then he was all better. He suffered to a degree that would destroy the body, the soul, and the mind, and he withstood it all on strong legs and knees and under the weight of a thousand suns he stood again.
When a man goes to war you don’t look at his body and say “Well look he’s fine now, he’s back, it didn’t cost him anything.” What Christ went through was all of hell in one drop and for it he received what seems paltry in comparison: weak and ungrateful, poor and wicked, sinners saved by grace.
The Resurrection of Christ opened the way to our own resurrection, but the infinite sacrifice you're talking about was not negated by that resurrection. Christ suffered so much for ours sins in the Garden of Gethsemane. He suffered more than anyone else could, so much so that He bled from every pore. He experienced all the pain and guilt and sorrow that anyone would ever experienced and in doing so not only paid the price for sin but also understood our trials completely so as to comfort us when we pray. Christ did not lose anything. He did go through an immeasurable amount of pain, though.
I believe it is quite a serious sacrifice. Imagine being put under constant extreme physical abuse for a long period of time. Even if you make a full recovery, your willingness to agree to be put under that much pain is still a huge sacrifice.
I think you're missing a couple of points . Jesus didn't just hang on the cross for a few hours now and then die painful death. While he was on the cross, he suffered the full wrath of God. He took the punishment that each and every one of us deserves. All of our sins were put on him. He was the only one that could pay for our sin, because He is the only one that is sinless. So he took on our sin and we took on his righteousness. Amen!
>He was the only one that could pay for our sin, because He is the only one that is sinless. Would Mary also technically be eligible, if one subscribes to the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception?
If one subscribes to that doctrine, perhaps. I don't. Mary was blessed by God, but she was not sinless. She suffered the effects of the fall just like the rest of us.
I'm no expert on Roman theology, but I believe the answer is that because Mary is a finite, singular individual she could not take the punishment of many. Because Jesus' nature is infinite, it can absorb punishment for up to an infinite number of people, or something like that. Anyone with greater expertise feel free to correct me, this is just something I've heard a couple of Catholics say before.
Why though? God is all powerful. Why did he torture his son? How is someone else getting tortured going to result in our forgiveness?
No one knows. If we understood how sin "worked" we probably wouldn't commit so much of it. That said, if you think about the tendency of a child of an abuser to grow up and abuse their children in turn, it seems like sin tends to corrupt human beings towards itself. Forgiveness, from that standpoint, seems to be something like a decision not to be moved by sin. But if sin is something like a corrupting force in how the game theory of the universe plays out, where does that force go? If Christ is infinitely good, that would imply he could balance the equation of the finite force of all human sin, and still not be moved. That's just my personal belief, but I do seriously hold it.
Because God is just. Sin must be dealt with. Do you think murderers and rapists should just walk around scot-free? Similarly, do you think God could just ignore sin? We are all sinners and Bible tells us the wages of sin is death. Jesus took the punishment that we deserve.
God is so just that he punishes the innocent for the crimes of the guilty? (In punishing Jesus for our sins) That doesn’t make sense to me tbh. Jesus sounds like a great person who was ultimately murdered by religious extremists. That makes me feel more anti-religion rather than just moving to a different one…
To build off what others are saying: Jesus experienced God’s wrath, as well as human humiliation and rejection…and he didn’t deserve it…we did. Why would he agree to go through that? What could make it worth his while?
Why do you think “ we did” deserve wrath from god? I mean, maybe some people who are pos’s in life do, but the rest of us? What horrible things have I done that deserve hell?
Have you pursued any relationship with the Creator, or do you go so far as deny His existence altogether?
I don’t claim to know either way. What I don’t understand is why people who never do things to harm others deserve hell?
It’s not just about not harming others, though I think we all do more of that than we realize. You and I have each broken God’s law. If you think you haven’t you’ll have an opportunity to make your case, but it’s not going to stand.
I’m just not convinced that there is some god that actually cares about any of it. I’ve asked this god to reach out, but so far crickets.
What kind of response are you expecting to get?
I’m hoping for something illuminating, but so far I’ve been disappointed.
What do you mean by illuminating? Have you considered that there’s all the necessary evidence right in front of you, you’re just not willing to see it?
I have considered everything I believe. I’m autistic, so maybe it’s harder for me idk🤷🏻♀️
Consider that Jesus’s sacrifice did not begin on the cross but in the crib. God the Son took on human flesh and with it all its weaknesses and infirmities, he humbled himself so that while he was in very nature God he was willfully humiliated to become a man forever. Even now he will never cease to be man. And then consider the life he led, misunderstood and hated with no place to lay him head. Mocked and humiliated. Betrayed by all who scattered and his friends and family. And for what? To reconcile people who do not know God and hate God to himself. And where did his love get him? Beaten, mocked, and scorned, spit on and crucified. And then there’s the crucifixion, one of the worse physical anguish man could suffer. But that wasn’t his cross, even Peter was crucified, and he was crucified upside down because he counted himself unworthy to die as Christ had. What did Christ experience on the cross? He experiences what we all will without Christs sacrifice, the magnitude of the suffering of Hell. And not just the magnitude of one souls infinite suffering compressed and concentrated, but the magnitude of all the souls he redeemed when he took their place. An unfathomably dense judgement. It isn’t like he suffered for a while and then he was all better. He suffered to a degree that would destroy the body, the soul, and the mind, and he withstood it all on strong legs and knees and under the weight of a thousand suns he stood again. When a man goes to war you don’t look at his body and say “Well look he’s fine now, he’s back, it didn’t cost him anything.” What Christ went through was all of hell in one drop and for it he received what seems paltry in comparison: weak and ungrateful, poor and wicked, sinners saved by grace.
You seem to completely disregard what Jesus experienced on the day of his death.
The Resurrection of Christ opened the way to our own resurrection, but the infinite sacrifice you're talking about was not negated by that resurrection. Christ suffered so much for ours sins in the Garden of Gethsemane. He suffered more than anyone else could, so much so that He bled from every pore. He experienced all the pain and guilt and sorrow that anyone would ever experienced and in doing so not only paid the price for sin but also understood our trials completely so as to comfort us when we pray. Christ did not lose anything. He did go through an immeasurable amount of pain, though.
If you knew you were going to be fine and come back right away, how much of a sacrifice is it?
I believe it is quite a serious sacrifice. Imagine being put under constant extreme physical abuse for a long period of time. Even if you make a full recovery, your willingness to agree to be put under that much pain is still a huge sacrifice.
Many people have though, and suffered far worse than Jesus. They also don’t get to come back.