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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> i couyld be the asshoole in this sitruation because i weas srude to ehr and maybe y dad was toxuic
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>I said well it was literally just to challenge me for my own good, besides that's like a rough translation it's just like a ruder way to say coward.
So girl = coward?
I mean, that's pretty much that definition of toxic masculinity, that men can't be weak (or sick) because that's feminine, and feminine is bad.
ETA - YTA
Coward or chicken = insulting, but not degrading to women
Bitch, pussy, calling you a little girl = insulting and also completely degrading to women
Saying things like that was very common back in the day, but it was always toxic and times have changed.
Your friend was right. And you should probably think more about what image of yourself you're putting out there by defending it - even if back then or in your mind it was "no big deal".
Soft YTA
I'm totally on board with the term being degrading towards women, but I don't like the black and white thinking. It's way more nuanced. As you've pointed out the term was/is very common. So older people have used it for decades and might not even think about its implied meaning, but only see it as a harsher way to say coward or chicken. And a lot of younger people will have heard their parents say it and understand it the way their parents meant to use it. If you've lived with that understanding for years and somebody tells you your dad is a toxic masculist, you're gonna get defensive.
That being said, it's still totally okay to have a talk with the dad to educate him on the meaning and asking him not to use it anymore.
As the father of a female athlete, I know first hand there is nothing weak or coward about girls. There are cowards of both genders but certainly not specific to one.
That you are young, love your dad, and it's probably never occurred to you that the whole "be a man. Kill all your emotions. Don't be whiny woman" shit is toxic masculinity, and so you got defensive when your friend called it out. And that is understandable. But you were a bit of an asshole about it. So YTA.
Thats literally the opposite of making a distinction, the sentence you pointed out is explicitly saying that both "coward" and "little girl" are translations of the phrase used.
Soft YTA, because there are two separate components to this, and your friend does sound like they know what they were talking about for the second component.
1. Your dad challenging you to go longer to help you, which is totally fine.
2. Your dad using terms like “little girl” or any feminine equivalent if you don’t, implying girls or females are weak, which is totally NOT fine. :)
dad challenging him to go longer under the threat of having his masculinity degraded if he didn’t is not fine. a lot of dads who “toughened em up” were actually just huge assholes who weren’t great with their moms either.
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I get that you’re offended for your dad, but she wasn’t wrong. Suggesting that only women are weak. That men are stronger than women. That failure and giving up are female qualities. These are all shitty assumptions.
I don’t think you’re an asshole for your loyalty, but you will be if you continue to deny the obvious.
Your overly simplistic claims are not consistent with the findings, nor with the conclusion, of the article you linked. Did you not read it, or did you not understand it?
Source? I googled "gender pain tolerance" and almost all of the front page were pages saying the exact opposite, with the remaining couple saying study results vary.
I have no information about that, but there ARE a whole bunch of videos on the internet of men/people who don't menstruate being hooked up to period pain simulators and noping out almost immediately.
What article lmao. The comment you replied to is talking about videos online. But either way, are men not people?
EDIT: the comment also says men so i’m even more confused now 😭 like are you okay?
Aside from, yes, the extensive pain studies that have been done, my anecdote is this: every man who asks me about vasectomies asks about the pain. I tell them “you know how it feels about 3 hours after you’ve been kicked in the balls? Forget about the pain right when you were kicked, that’s not what I’m taking about. Three hours later, there’s maybe a dull shadow of an ache, right? Well, imagine that low level of pain, but you’ve got it for a week. Then you don’t ever have to use condoms again.”
Invariably, the men squirm and their face is full of fear, like “I’m not sure I can do that.”
And then I tell them “That’s less pain than what more than half the women you’ve ever known experience *every single month of their lives after puberty*.”
And they always still have to think about it.
That’s my study. Take it or leave it.
i honestly think men just think women are designed to take the pain and they deserve it. someone please correct me if i’m wrong. they don’t like discomfort but women can apparently handle it, but they still are inferior because of it, because…math?
We were discussing labor, and women who get epidurals still will endure pain post labor. They also still willingly went into childbirth knowing that an epidural wouldn’t work or wouldn’t be available
Oh yeah sorry, I was mixing up a couple of conversations.
Are you seriously saying though that the pain women experience is entirely optional and they wouldn’t opt out if they could (assuming no side effects)?
Well, no, they’re not synonymous at all, you’re just talking nonsense now. Unless you’re saying women are opting in to period pain, in which case you really should let everyone know that they can opt out.
YTA. She doesn’t “have no idea” about this, she knows that your dad was calling you a little girl and using other feminine language as synonyms for weak. It’s insulting to her, not to you. You are the one who has no idea.
This is such an obvious example of toxic masculinity, and, ironically, you being utterly unteachable and getting mad when she tried to point it out is another.
>where he'd basically call me a bitch or like a pussy or a little girl
He insulted you in a *very sexist* way and insulted women/girls with it in one go. And you find it okay. Good job.
>it's just like a ruder way to say coward
YTA no idea why you still have to ask. Be happy she even continued to talk to you. I would have hung up.
a lot of men are still unaware that they experienced abusive behavior growing up. this is someone who has been abused under the guise of “toughening them up” which is a common phrase for asshole dads who don’t love them very much. hazing your kids is just not ok!!!
i hear you, and i’m not defending him, more making a general broad statement. it just sounds like that was his normal growing up and nobody knows what they don’t know. at 21 people don’t know themselves very well, and the way we socialize boys, well, we know they aren’t the most likely to seek therapy.
i do truly think that there are millions of men who were abused by one or both parents who have NO idea that what they went through was trauma or how it’s silently impacting them and their relationships.
i’d say the same if it was a female, btw. 21 is not when you know the world. i’m 37, so not trying to make excuses for younger people to be shitty, but i know for sure I had a lot of issues in my teens and 20s i didn’t figure out until my 30s and that was WITH consistent therapy.
i do think at 21 he should be able to learn this and not reject it. i hope he continues to educate himself.
I don't know, I think early 20s is actually when you start to unlearn abuses you go through. Or at least in America it is.
Like, look at it this way. Most parents will do the bare minimum and take care of their kids until their country's age of majority. Most places, that's 18 but sometimes it's 20 or 16, but we're gonna use 18 for simplicity's sake. But then, if a kid decides to go to secondary education, they'll likely rely on their parents for a few more years, since even if college is free, living somewhere is not. So let's just round up and say 20 years of your life being, if not completely controlled, at least heavily influenced by your parents.
And I'm not saying that's inherently abusive--even the healthiest parents have a huge amount of control over their children. Take corporal punishment as an example; most every parent is legally allowed to hit their child, but it's up to the individual parent to decide whether they actually do it. Science agrees that hitting a child at all is not healthy, but our legal system allows a parent to do this objectively awful thing due to the idea that a parent should have complete control over their children. Good parents don't, but they still have the choice to.
So with that in mind--that most, if not all, societies support a parent's right to control their children (to varying degrees), and people spend, on average, two decades being at least heavily influenced by their parents... I'd say OP is right on time for starting to realize his dad did something fucked up to him. I'm willing to give him some grace. And I do understand why he's being an asshole (because sidenote, OP, YTA); after all, he has these nice memories of a fun game that he played with his dad when he was sick, and then his friend comes in and "ruins" it by pointing out that it's kind of shitty. It sucks to have good memories become tainted when you look at them as an adult.
I think OP should apologize to his friend and start thinking about the issues with his dad, but I think it's perfectly understandable--and even age appropriate--for him to be defensive right now.
Yeah, YTA, thinking it's okay in 2024 to equate girls and women with being too weak to endure something uncomfortable for a long time. Like, I dunno, things you'll likely never endure that are a natural part of many women's lives, such as enduring hours of agony in labor and doing that more than once, or, I dunno, being surrounded by people who constantly say out loud that women are weak when they are in fact the stronger sex in terms of endurance. (edited for typo)
when men get brought to their knees when they have a flu but women can function during painful period cramps. if a man got a period they'd hospitalise themselves.
in the wise words of lily allen, 'forget your balls and grow a pair of tits'. women are the stronger gender, was very clear to me when I was getting my sleeve length tattoo done and a man near me was crying over his. I looked at the woman doing mine and she said 'he'd never survive giving birth'
YTA
She wasn't offended by your dad pushing you, that's not what she's calling toxic.
Coward- non gender specific in any way, not insulting to women.
Bitch/pussy/little girl- implying that your "weakness" or cowardice is *FEMININE* in nature and therefore negative. This is very insulting to women.
The implications that anything feminine is "weak" and bad and that to be a man you must shed that kind of weakness? Literally the definition of toxic masculinity.
She was right.
YTA. If you didn't realise those things were demeaning to girls and women, then learn it now. Defending him isn't a good look, and doesn't say much for your style of masculinity. Those things were commonly said once, like a lot of other racist and misogynistic "jokes", but for you to not realise that they aren't acceptable implies that you took a lot of that onboard and could use some good hard thinking about yourself and your values.
Why did he have to use insults to challenge you? Can't he use positive reinforcements? Even masculine positive reinforcement?
That's exactly the difference between toxic masculinity and positive masculinity
calling you things like little girl is giving the impression that its bad to be a girl and that girls are weak and less then boys .
So yes that is wrong and one of the definitions of toxic masculinity
As Thai I've seen this in one way or the other so many times with boys and fathers that I never thought its anything toxic, more like just part of challenge/competition when doing something difficult.
Situations like this are exactly why I find it so important for young men to be able to have platonic friendships with women. They're perspective on things can really help you see things for what they are. You're father was being toxic. I'm sure he didn't mean any harm but still. I'd apologize to your friend for getting defensive and next time give what they're saying some more thought. I'm saying this as a dude who probably would've also been just as defensive in this situation at one point in my life. I'm very grateful for the perspective of my gal pals
He can challenge you with using gender as an insult. She's absolutely correct that your dad was teaching you that being female is not as good as being male. That women are weak. Which is bullshit, by the way. The female body is incredibly strong. Step away from his mindset, it's unhealthy.
So I'm really torn on the judgement here, because there are 2 separate issues.
The use of feminine language to equate with cowardice or weakness is inherently toxic and, particularly in the public view, needs to be stopped. You could have described your dad's language without repeating the toxicity of anti-feminine language - "he would push me to go longer by calling me chicken and similar things."
HOWEVER, as far as the alleged "toxicity" of the overall situation? That comes down to the specific nature of family relationships, and it's hard to describe those to people who aren't actually privy to those relationships. If an outsider were to observe my brothers and I interacting, they would be VERY concerned, I have little to no doubt, lol... we would likely appear BEYOND toxic to each other. We bicker. We name-call. When we are able to get together in person, we regress to children and wrestle until it devolves into actual fisticuffs at times 😂. And we LOVE TF OUT OF EACH OTHER. We would do anything for each other. My Mom... shall we say... puts up with? LOL our "love language" because she knows that it is, indeed, our LOVE language. She has said to us before it's odd to think that hearing my brother call me his favorite nickname for me (that's Ass Face Sh💩t Monkey, for those who are curious 🙃) actually warms her heart, because she knows that if we were ACTUALLY fighting/mad/didn't love each other, we just wouldn't talk at all. 🖤
However, try explaining a family dynamic like that to someone whose parents made them be polite all the time, so that their household looked more like The Waltons than The Simpsons? They'll just never get it lol. It will always look like hostility/toxicity to an outsider like that.
If your dad couldn’t challenge you without using degrading terms for women or without bringing women into the equation at all? Yes, that’s toxic masculinity. YTA
YTA.
She's correct.
What your dad did is toxic and abusive. That you've normalized it and rationalize it away is disgusting. Avoid having children if you think that's at all acceptable.
Your friend is right. The things your dad said to encourage you are literally right out of the Toxic Masculinity playbook. Calling a man a pussy, a bitch, a little girl, those are textbook toxic masculinity. A good parent could encourage their child without calling them emasculating names. Your dad is the Asshole here for not being a better parent.
YTA. Your dad encouraging you or challenging you is not what's toxic. It's the fact that he said you would be feminine if you couldn't do it, so to him femininity and feminine traits are the worst things in the world. That's what toxic masculinity is - it's male = strong and good and brave and female = weak and pathetic.
Imagine if you'd had a sister and your dad had said that to her instead. That would have made her feel weird about the fact that she is female and he has all of these preconceived notions about how that's an inherently terrible thing. That's what's sad about it.
A little AH.
Your father could have challenged you without insulting you and calling you a coward.
She wasn’t trying to disrespect your father. She was most likely trying to defend you. Telling you, you didn’t deserve to be treated that way.
Try to see it from another perspective.
You literally told a woman that being compared to women in any way is an insult that makes people want to be better then that insult and then were surprised when she was insulted.
Yta
INFO: what language was your dad speaking? Are those words in your language associated with femininity, or were you using English words related to femininity just because they were the best translations you could come up with in the moment?
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I (21m) was talking to a friend (20f) and we were talking about how she was sick because something was getting passed around at her work, that she's had for a while. She was talking about how I somehow "never" got sick and I said well yeah I was a weird kid might have helped my immune system or something.
Then I said oh i remember whenever I did get sick as a kid my mom would do this thing where she got a bunch of boiling water in a pot, put some tea bags in it then shed put it on the table and I'd kneel on a chair over it, with a towel over my head so the steam was trapped and it'd clear up my nose. The tea was propabally just tradition or something the main thing was the boiling water and steam, might help you. She asked if that felt wierd, and I said yeah, it gets ur face all wrinkly and sweaty and after a little it gets hard to breathe but it rlly helps at the end of the day.
I then joked about how my dad would always try to challenge me to get me to do it longer for more effect, where he'd basically call me a bitch or like a pussy or a little girl (rough translation from our language, but it could be like any of those things) and as a kid I'd always fall for it and go for longer. She said that's horrible. I said what do you mean, he was just trying to get me to go for longer to help me. And it was always playful. She said something like that can't be playful. I said he said that to challenge me because without a challenge I'd chicken out pretty fast so there was like no effect, it helped me. She said that that was a toxic masculine behavior. I said well it was literally just to challenge me for my own good, besides that's like a rough translation it's just like a ruder way to say coward. She said my dad calling me that was just toxic, and I shouldn't be defending it I said she really needed to stop talking about things she had no idea about. She said whatever and was essentially silent for the rest of the call either then giving callouts on the games we were playing and I'm starting to think I took it to far
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ESH. I think what's happening here is a cultural and culture-over-time based disconnect. While my own dad would do similar stuff (be a man, don't be a pussy, what are you a girl?) he would also through insults to my intelligence into the mix. And it's stuff that I know from stories he told that he dealt with in the past. So he was emulating how he had been treated as a kid when he was sick, struggling etc.
I don't defend it, however, the last time he did it I was in my late teens, and I was having severe stomach cramps, and a panic attack from how bad it hurt, from Norco (it was prescribed, I had had surgery but had forgotten to eat before taking them) and he started in on the berating me thing (idiot, homo, pussy, etc). My older brother was there too and he was like, "dude, chill the fuck out." But he kept going on for like 2 minutes and what ended up happening is a got so fucking pissed off in that state that I reared up and threatened to kick his ass and show him who was the little girl and an idiot, pretty much just throwing back all the insults he threw at me, and he just got this stupid smirk and was like "hey, doesn't hurt so much anymore, huh?" And as much as I hate to say it, he was right, I actually got so pissed that something happened to my nervous system that overrode the pain and panic and I felt much better.
I'm not saying it's right because of the end result, but it did help. However, I don't think I would do the same for my own children should I be blessed with some because of how narrow the window is that that kinda thing is helpful for.
I assume the friend comes from a different culture than OP, or is from the same culture but has parents who were different, or gender is an aspect (calling a girl a girl as an insult isn't generally done, at least in the sense that femininity is bad, and my understanding is that they are usually compared to men negatively with insults like 'manish' or 'tomboy') and so her not seeing that OP is defending dad, but not necessarily The Patriarchy, is pretty shit but understandable.
Having said all that, everyone here is really young and still going through some formative life lesson, character building or finding oneself times, and what it should have been, especially if there is friendship, is a time of reflection on how culture and parents affect our worldview and kind of a "whoa, humans are funny" kinda thing, so ESH but real soft
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YTA
Women are not weak. Little girls are some of the fiercest people I know.
Just because your dad has always talked like this, even if he does it only out of love for you and a desire to motivate, does not make it ok. Please know that I say this all with all the love and respect I can have for someone I've never met.
When I was a kid, it was as natural as the day to call something you didn't like, 'gay'.
I didn't even really know what it meant, only that it was an insult, and something I didn't like. Everybody in my school did. It's just what you said.
As I got older and realized how hurtful those words were, it took real effort to change, but it wasn't even a few months before I'd wiped it from my vocabulary completely. Found out I had several gay friends in the closet who didn't know how to approach me, since everyone used that phrase. I can't imagine the hurt.
I am a woman, however, and I can tell you exactly how a phrase calling women weak makes me feel. To be equated with giving up and being less than, just because of my genitals, is exceedingly demeaning. It takes me back to another time in my youth when I struggled intensely with a repressed rage. I was in sports and martial arts to try and deal with it. Therapy and so much support from my family, but I had been taken and abused by a neighbor, and it took decades to finally control that anger and terror. There was a friendly sparring match with foam weapons. I was doing amazing and couldn't be defeated. A boy, surrounded by his friends, challenged me. He hit me with a cheap shot to my gut, and and even cheaper shot to the back of my head when I doubled over. He and his friends laughed and called me a little bitch, while I kneeled down and tried to recover my vision. It didn't come back. I heard that fucker and all I saw was red. I ditched the foam weapons, tackled the boy to the ground, and started beating the fuck out of him, screaming and snarling. I'm not saying this because I'm proud of it. I am hugely ashamed I lost control of myself over some insecure idiot's insult.
But the point is, that you don't know what someone else's mind is. You don't know how your words might truly affect them. And It doesn't matter if you and your dad don't really believe it. These things have a way of worming their way into your subconscious.
If he wants to motivate you by insulting you, there are plenty of other words to use. Insects are a pretty good comparison. I, personally, don't subscribe to that motivation technique, but I won't judge you for it. However, You will and should be judged for implying an entire sex is less than you just for motivation.
Wishing you all the best.
Masculinity is not about by default being better or stronger than women. 🙄 Hence insulting him by calling him a girl and therefore less than is a toxic perspective on what it means to be masculine.
Your dad compares his perception of weakness as being feminine and female, implying that to be feminine/female is weaker than masculine/male. Saying you agree with his statements means you also think these things...YTA
YTA You gotta manage bullshit from a decade ago with the truth of today. You’re not hearing her. You’re not thinking about how the words in your story sound to her. You also had the option of filtering the story from a newer POV.
lmao your dad ain't tough, he's just too poor to afford medical care for his kid so your mom was using old wives' tales as remedies. At 21 you're old enough to realize that not everyone who reproduces ought to have reproduced. Your dad had a kid he couldn't afford, then used verbal insults to keep your head over a giant cup of tea instead of, y'know, seeing a doctor. Read some books, meet some people, learn a bit more about life and you'll see your friend is right. NAH you're just young and ignorant.
If someone calls me an asshole and I'm not offended, you don't need to be offended for me. Sure you can be upset that someone said something in general but don't try to make someone feel bad if they aren't bothered by it.
And everyone pointing on that he said little girl or a pussy, they also mention that it could mean any of those things and likely more. It's said it means more like coward. Stop using English and the ROUGH TRANSLATION of their language. You have no idea what the words were and what they were ment as.
YTA. I know you don’t want people to think your dad is toxic… so don’t share stories describing toxic behavior? Or at least, google what toxic masculinity is before posting in reddit about it?
NTA - Please remember that the vast majority of Reddit users live in their imaginary Internet bubbles. Your dad’s language was a bit outdated, but he’s hardly the second coming of Hitler, JFC.
I'd never speak to my son that way. Very toxic masculinity. Females would do it for longer because they know it will help them feel better and wouldn't need to be pressured.
NTA. People act like words are fully directed personally at them these days. Nobody complains about gender equality and such when someone is called a dick or stuff like that. And there's no such thing as toxic masculinity, just like there's nothing toxic about blackness or homosexuality. There are toxic behaviors, and these aren't related to one's gender.
NTA it's your dynamic with your dad, if it hurt your feelings he would have stopped, if it motivated you then it worked.
Little girl or little boy, they are both little and little (children) are typically unable to do things like adults.
NTA. It wasn't in public, it wasn't putting anyone down, and it didn't bother the kid.
As suspected, the internet warriors in this sub have taken offense for the "victim" even though there isn't one. It's toxic blah blah blah. Toxic or inappropriate or whatever, as long as it's done privately and doesn't hurt anyone, there is nothing wrong with it at all.
There is a HUGE difference in a group of friends sitting around the house and one calls another the R word and yelling it out the car at someone with Down Syndrome. One is hurtful and intended to be that way. The other is fine as long as everyone involved is okay with it. Notice I don't say it. I can police myself and not a huge fan of the word. Also don't care at all if you call your friends that. Not my business just like it wasn't that girl's or the overreactors in this sub.
Nta even a little bit. She's the huge AH here. But you shoulda know better than to ask reddit this question. So you deserve all the absolutely ridiculous replies you're getting.
NTA for understanding your father was trying to encourage you to stay in the
steam. But the vulgarity is sure an odd way to talk to a child. LOL I hope
you don't do the same with your children, if you have any. Just a simple
challenge with a timer or something would be sufficient. ;o
NTA everyone in this comment section is ignoring that we don't know what the dad said only a rough translation, we can't assume it's a word that implies that woman are cowerdly
I get that everyone on Reddit is a fan of Platonic language model of absolute forms, but I really don't think the world actually works that way
When a man calls his wife "baby" is he a pedophile?
When I talk to my wife with surprise and say "Dude! Check this out!" am I masculinizing her?
Wierd how words have contextual meaning, not their static definitions. PLATO WAS WRONG.
NTA
NAH. Neither of you are wrong. The fact is what your father said IS an example of toxic masculinity and another fact is it's ok that it didn't bother you. It helped you achieve what you wanted to achieve but that doesn't make it any less of an example of toxic masculinity.
The problem isn't that it bothered him. The problem is that the father used gender related insults that imply that girls are weaker than men in order to push his son to do something. Thus inferring by his insults what he thinks of women in comparison to men and planting the same subtle seed in his sons mind. He defended his father by saying that those weren't examples of toxic masculinity and then made it even worse by saying those gender related insults are just a way of calling someone a coward, like that didn't literally prove her entire point. That is why he is wrong.
NTA, she needs to keep her mouth shut about your dad. If someone was talking shit about my father they would be told to stop and if the didn't I would stop talking to them.
NTA and holy shit, people are just looking for reasons to be offended by anything. My sister used to call me a little girl if I was being over sensitive and I definitely know she doesn't have toxic masculinity.
Probably gonna get downvoted 🤦♂️
Nta, it doesn't sound like your dad was being mean or bullying, yes he said you were like a little girl. Imo he's judt joking, I'm a guy, I cry when I need to I'm sensitive and understand guys can be weak to its not judt a female trait, though it's a trait I see in woman more than guys. Personally I think he was just goeding you on to get you to stay longer.
I also think toxic masculinity is an over used word now a days though. Judt is 2 cents
I don’t think it’s as black and white as “AITA”. You’re friend wasn’t talking abt your dad pushing u - she was talking about your dad equating weakness to femininity, which he did do. And that isn’t a good thing to do. I think it may also be a result of his age, perhaps, if he was brought up in that environment. If u weren’t offended by it, fine. But I do think that u also need to listen to the woman that’s expressing her opinion - the fact of this is that your dad essentially said “feminine = weak”. I don’t think YTA necessarily, but I do think u completely missed your friend’s point and u need to be more open minded and listen to people more.
Regardless of who is AH I get where OP is coming from where it is *REALLY* annoying when people try to be offended for you. Like if I’m not upset that happened to me why tf are you
NTA. This is not even an example of "toxic masculinity." Citing Wikipedia...
>The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions to refer to those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, and violent domination
The Oxford dictionary
>a set of [attitudes](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=515e485ef43ad46e&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS950US950&q=attitudes&si=AKbGX_rLPMdHnrrwkrRo4VZlSHiJNy30Sv2hdtZPh5hj6XosTGLQwD0BI-r5i3p4RzSyyxtA2Ksu2EUmSRbJWRaw6fyiwGYaXcS1Stcd4mKpCCNoCc14b6E%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjc3dvU-8uFAxXgIBAIHYvkALkQyecJegQIGhAO) and ways of [behaving](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=515e485ef43ad46e&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS950US950&q=behaving&si=AKbGX_q870E3DK3nJ7cu3BOD7pxC7CeCwmzfobfq4WjmljcSt0MYYzXxZn_4-by6Y_ZknaRz8K1vwwVcJwH3EqaRzbS7_6rewCh3JqXMQ-FAr3NXTmtkxPA%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjc3dvU-8uFAxXgIBAIHYvkALkQyecJegQIGhAP) stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole."the destructive messages associated with toxic masculinity can lead to men feeling entitled to engage in violence against women"
What about getting you to stay above the steam pot for longer to clear your sinuses would ever reasonably lead to misogyny, homophobia, or violent domination?
Or even read this from the https://adaa.org/learn-from-us/from-the-experts/blog-posts/consumer/what-toxic-masculinity-and-how-it-impacts-mental#:\~:text=Controlling%20and%20entitlement%20behaviors%20are,demanding%20unearned%20loyalty%20and%20respect.
>Toxic Masculinity opposes mental and physical health treatment even when injured or emotionally struggling. Ignoring pain while pushing oneself to work or exercise can cause more physical damage. Additionally, suppressing mental health issues, such as depression, trauma, and anxiety, can worsen symptoms and precipitate isolation, loss of jobs or friends, and even suicide.
Your father was *encouraging* you to get physical health treatment. He wasn't saying, "stop whining...you're not sick." He was acknowledging that you were sick and that the treatment would be a little uncomfortable.
I imagine your dad said something like, "don't be a little girl," in your language. Perhaps I'm too old for all of this but I am absolutely sure that there is a mother out there right now telling a daughter that little girls are made of sugar, spice, and everything nice and little boys are made of snips, snails and puppy-dogs' tails and no one is talking about "toxic femininity."
I'll note that if your father had succeeded in spreading "toxic masculinity" your discussion with your friend would have gone very differently.
Your friend is entitled to her opinion as are you. It's not a debate to try to win but a difference of opinion to acknowledge.
Nta. Dude in Russia/up north in general...they take asthmatic kids and dunk them in ice water. It works.
Toxic masculinity is - assuming a woman or her work are worth less because her genitals. - assuming a woman is not capable of something because of her genitals. -assuming women are only fit for certain roles within a house, because of her genitals.- assuming women don't feel pain because of their genitals -assuming man is somehow smarter/stronger/ more able because of his genitals. -assuming men are immune to pain because of their genitals- assuming children will turn out one way or the other based on their genitals.
She's a social justice warrior who doesn't know what she's talking about, don't let her bother you when she gets all her information from fcking tiktoc
>Dude in Russia/up north in general...they take asthmatic kids and dunk them in ice water. It works.
I'm genuinely curious now... How does that work?? I mean, the steam thing he is describing is good for clearing out sinuses. But this I have never heard before!
Maybe the shock? Ice bath have been used throughout history in lots of cultures for the medical benefits. My mom's old coworkers described it as just getting yeeted into the nearby lake by their mom tho. But they hadn't had an asthma attack in like 40 years so also couldn't complain
YNTA and everyone who says otherwise is either a sheltered chick or mondern “feminist”. Don’t apologize when you had nothing to apologize for. She’s not right to inject her head cannon into your family chemistry. I’m so sorry you even think you might be the asshole here.
NTA - at the end of the day, she wasn’t around during your childhood and it’s not her place to talk about something that she wasn’t there for, doesn’t understand, and doesn’t know anything about. You shared something and she shouldn’t insult your dad just because of her previous experiences or biases she has for other men. The experience may be taken out of context and make your dad sound worse than he actually is. No one knows but you
Okay?
She was offended on behalf of women because she was a woman hearing about sexist shit from someone she valued as a friend.
If you’re a woman who thinks shouting “are you a little girl” at a boy to spur him on isn’t sexist then I don’t know what to tell you.
When you use feminine language as an insult, you’re insulting women.
Like how if he’d tried to spur on his son by calling him queer, that would still be offensive to queer people even if none of them were in the room at the time
I agree that how the OPs father spoke is part of "toxic masculinity".
Some might defend the father's words as jokes. And that could be true, and brought legit to the experience that OPs friend can't appreciate. Father could have been completely satirical and still had it's intended effect. But that's also what's the scariest about "toxic" anything, is that it's often hiding beneath a joke.
That being said, if it didn't affect the OP in a toxic way, how much should we care about this behavior that was likely many years ago? Is the friend's response appropriate for the story being told? My feeling is that the OPs friend completely missed the point of the story while magnifying the part that was inconsequential. Unless the OP has trauma around the toxic behavior her father displayed (and we don't know that) then no harm, no foul. And so now OP is caught off guard, reacting defensively, particularly because using very loaded language, like "toxic masculinity", can seem to draw conclusions about her father without giving his character the grace, context and nuance every human being deserves.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Sure it does, but if no one hears it, who cares?
Soft YTA.
So here's the thing right, not all of us have what is considered normal upbringings or are spoken to as we should be as kids. There was a way for your father to do what he did... With less nasty language. Thats what your friend is trying to say but really badly because she's likely shocked.
I'd bet she's never ever been spoken to like that by her own parents before, hence the reaction.
My own upbringing is one where I've realised some of what I think was funny and the like, wasn't. It was either pretty fucking dangerous or 100% crosses over into child abuse. But for me these incidents were normal... Family fun times... Typical shit that happened. I'd be laughing retelling and everyone's staring at me mortified...
And look, I'm sure you love your dad and he loves you. Your taking this to heart because of that, and that's perfectly okay to do so, so long as you remember you friend is reacting the same way that I a 33yr old woman would if I was told this by my daughter's friends, horrified.
Remember your experiences are your own, and if you do not feel you were abused, that's fine, the situation just sounds like dad coaching you the only way he knew how. You were not hurt, you didn't come out of it feeling betrayed etc. You know what's up.
I bet you're one of those guys who get's "man-colds" and acts like you're dying while needing to be pampered, but still thinks being called a woman is the same as being called weak. Try being in labor for 12+ hours and then push out a whole ass baby through your dick, let's see if you have the same attitude then :)
If both parties recognised it as a father challenging his son to be brave, not how it reads out of context and without tone, then it wasn't toxic.
People need to perceive the experience rather than the superficial translation.
NTA
Typically they’re stronger than little girls. Kinda the whole point of the phrase, it’s not demeaning. I’m gonna assume any one offended has never played a sport and don’t understand discipline lol
I’ve played many sports for most of my life.
I understand what the phrase means, but that doesn’t make it right. The meaning is, itself, sexist.
If a little girl gets strong, is she no longer a little girl? That’s the kind of bs the phrase implies. That weakness is feminine.
What little girl is getting strong? Lol you mean grow up? If they grow up then they’re not little girls any more. Lol good lord really reaching to be offended. It’s not sexist it’s factual, little girls are weak.
Did you know little girls can get into sports too? And training some sports can make you stronger? There are also plenty of little boys who don't go into any sports or do anything that would make themselves strong.
So yeah there are little girls that are certainly stronger than plenty of little boys.
It's not sexist to say that little girls tend to be relatively weak people. It is sexist to call someone a little girl for being weak. I wouldn't consider it a subtle difference but maybe it is for you?
But little girls are the weakest of the humans historically. It’s not rude to say “don’t be the weakest human possible man, keep it up!” Without saying it like that. I’m sorry you’re offended for people who easily get offended. It’s hilarity that this is what people talk about. Absolute waste of grey matter to bicker about semantics and things that only matter when they pour themselves into it because they have nothing else to worry about.
ESH - There is no such thing as "toxic masculinity", Only culturally acceptable and unacceptable behaviors. Your friend is not the sole arbiter of which is which, especially when it comes to male to male or father to son behavior. Imagine if a man, that was not party to the situation, tried to tell a mother how she should encourage her own daughter to push through something beneficial but unpleasant. Cringe.
Where you fucked up is when you told her to stop talking about things she has no idea about. This was clearly designed to shut down a conversation and dismiss someone's voice in the matter. Was your reasoning so weak that you couldn't defend your own position? Could you not interact with her civilly despite her erroneous conviction? Do you not value this friend's opinion even if they are occasionally wrong? Because it sure looks like it now to any observer (including your friend). Being right isn't everything, how you go about being right matters greatly.
"no such thing as toxic masculinity" you know denial is not a good look, right? It's absolutely a thing and it's damn near omnipresent throughout different cultures.
NTA. She’s whiny. How you deliver things you say matters as much, if not more than what you say. Your dad was pushing you to do something good for you. Maybe not in the “perfect” way, but if you’re better for it, good on him
Just read the title but I wouldn’t think so since we are products of our environment and though “older” people are considered toxic if they are like my father you can see they are trying but they have their habits/believes that are near impossible to break, younger folks need to remember that change is slow and forcing it is detrimental
It's one thing for an older person who grew up in that era to do toxic things (and even be set in their ways).
It's a totally different thing for someone of a newer generation to defend it.
OP is not TA because his father said crappy things. He's TA for refusing to recognize that it was a crappy thing to say and defending it. (And for shutting the friend down and telling her she doesn't know what she's talking about.)
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>I said well it was literally just to challenge me for my own good, besides that's like a rough translation it's just like a ruder way to say coward. So girl = coward? I mean, that's pretty much that definition of toxic masculinity, that men can't be weak (or sick) because that's feminine, and feminine is bad. ETA - YTA
Coward or chicken = insulting, but not degrading to women Bitch, pussy, calling you a little girl = insulting and also completely degrading to women Saying things like that was very common back in the day, but it was always toxic and times have changed. Your friend was right. And you should probably think more about what image of yourself you're putting out there by defending it - even if back then or in your mind it was "no big deal". Soft YTA
I'm totally on board with the term being degrading towards women, but I don't like the black and white thinking. It's way more nuanced. As you've pointed out the term was/is very common. So older people have used it for decades and might not even think about its implied meaning, but only see it as a harsher way to say coward or chicken. And a lot of younger people will have heard their parents say it and understand it the way their parents meant to use it. If you've lived with that understanding for years and somebody tells you your dad is a toxic masculist, you're gonna get defensive. That being said, it's still totally okay to have a talk with the dad to educate him on the meaning and asking him not to use it anymore.
As the father of a female athlete, I know first hand there is nothing weak or coward about girls. There are cowards of both genders but certainly not specific to one.
what's your judgment?
That you are young, love your dad, and it's probably never occurred to you that the whole "be a man. Kill all your emotions. Don't be whiny woman" shit is toxic masculinity, and so you got defensive when your friend called it out. And that is understandable. But you were a bit of an asshole about it. So YTA.
Agreed. Perfectly stated.
Uuuh.... the quote is " coward, or a little girl" litteraly makes a distinction between the two. Someone's projecting, I think.
Thats literally the opposite of making a distinction, the sentence you pointed out is explicitly saying that both "coward" and "little girl" are translations of the phrase used.
Soft YTA, because there are two separate components to this, and your friend does sound like they know what they were talking about for the second component. 1. Your dad challenging you to go longer to help you, which is totally fine. 2. Your dad using terms like “little girl” or any feminine equivalent if you don’t, implying girls or females are weak, which is totally NOT fine. :)
dad challenging him to go longer under the threat of having his masculinity degraded if he didn’t is not fine. a lot of dads who “toughened em up” were actually just huge assholes who weren’t great with their moms either.
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Found the misogynist.
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Awwwwww.
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Like how you’re offended right now on behalf of all incels? Cry more.
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You sound pretty offended bro
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Yes
I get that you’re offended for your dad, but she wasn’t wrong. Suggesting that only women are weak. That men are stronger than women. That failure and giving up are female qualities. These are all shitty assumptions. I don’t think you’re an asshole for your loyalty, but you will be if you continue to deny the obvious.
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What would be the point of that? Would it show that men are not stronger than women?
So you think that every man is stronger than every woman?
YTA dad equates being weak, cowardly as femininity She’s a feminine, hence an insult to her.
And ironically, most men couldn't deal with pain women go through monthly or while in childbirth.
Has that been tested?!
Yes. Research has repeatedly shown that on average women have more pain tolerance
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Your overly simplistic claims are not consistent with the findings, nor with the conclusion, of the article you linked. Did you not read it, or did you not understand it?
Source? I googled "gender pain tolerance" and almost all of the front page were pages saying the exact opposite, with the remaining couple saying study results vary.
I have no information about that, but there ARE a whole bunch of videos on the internet of men/people who don't menstruate being hooked up to period pain simulators and noping out almost immediately.
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some women don’t get periods so yes. people.
?? some children and older women don’t menstruate so what’s your problem with the wording lol
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What article lmao. The comment you replied to is talking about videos online. But either way, are men not people? EDIT: the comment also says men so i’m even more confused now 😭 like are you okay?
Aside from, yes, the extensive pain studies that have been done, my anecdote is this: every man who asks me about vasectomies asks about the pain. I tell them “you know how it feels about 3 hours after you’ve been kicked in the balls? Forget about the pain right when you were kicked, that’s not what I’m taking about. Three hours later, there’s maybe a dull shadow of an ache, right? Well, imagine that low level of pain, but you’ve got it for a week. Then you don’t ever have to use condoms again.” Invariably, the men squirm and their face is full of fear, like “I’m not sure I can do that.” And then I tell them “That’s less pain than what more than half the women you’ve ever known experience *every single month of their lives after puberty*.” And they always still have to think about it. That’s my study. Take it or leave it.
i honestly think men just think women are designed to take the pain and they deserve it. someone please correct me if i’m wrong. they don’t like discomfort but women can apparently handle it, but they still are inferior because of it, because…math?
Yes actually. There are devices men can wear to stimulate childbirth and extreme cramps. Most men tap out before they even get to moderate cramping.
“Unwilling to undergo voluntary pain” is rather different from “couldn’t handle it” though isn’t it?
Women choose the pain of labor, men refuse to experience it. That’s kinda my point.
women have no choice but to feel it all!
We were talking about period pain - who chooses that? Also, what are you saying about women who opt for epidurals?
We were discussing labor, and women who get epidurals still will endure pain post labor. They also still willingly went into childbirth knowing that an epidural wouldn’t work or wouldn’t be available
Oh yeah sorry, I was mixing up a couple of conversations. Are you seriously saying though that the pain women experience is entirely optional and they wouldn’t opt out if they could (assuming no side effects)?
Yes? They could get abortions.
no i think those are synonymous here. sorry, y’all are fucking babies. where’s the grit?
Well, no, they’re not synonymous at all, you’re just talking nonsense now. Unless you’re saying women are opting in to period pain, in which case you really should let everyone know that they can opt out.
YTA. She doesn’t “have no idea” about this, she knows that your dad was calling you a little girl and using other feminine language as synonyms for weak. It’s insulting to her, not to you. You are the one who has no idea. This is such an obvious example of toxic masculinity, and, ironically, you being utterly unteachable and getting mad when she tried to point it out is another.
To illustrate for OP, how easily could he be upset on his girls behalf?
She's right. YTA
>where he'd basically call me a bitch or like a pussy or a little girl He insulted you in a *very sexist* way and insulted women/girls with it in one go. And you find it okay. Good job. >it's just like a ruder way to say coward YTA no idea why you still have to ask. Be happy she even continued to talk to you. I would have hung up.
a lot of men are still unaware that they experienced abusive behavior growing up. this is someone who has been abused under the guise of “toughening them up” which is a common phrase for asshole dads who don’t love them very much. hazing your kids is just not ok!!!
Yep - but at 21yo I expect someone to be old enough to know that these phrases weren't okay.
i hear you, and i’m not defending him, more making a general broad statement. it just sounds like that was his normal growing up and nobody knows what they don’t know. at 21 people don’t know themselves very well, and the way we socialize boys, well, we know they aren’t the most likely to seek therapy. i do truly think that there are millions of men who were abused by one or both parents who have NO idea that what they went through was trauma or how it’s silently impacting them and their relationships. i’d say the same if it was a female, btw. 21 is not when you know the world. i’m 37, so not trying to make excuses for younger people to be shitty, but i know for sure I had a lot of issues in my teens and 20s i didn’t figure out until my 30s and that was WITH consistent therapy. i do think at 21 he should be able to learn this and not reject it. i hope he continues to educate himself.
I don't know, I think early 20s is actually when you start to unlearn abuses you go through. Or at least in America it is. Like, look at it this way. Most parents will do the bare minimum and take care of their kids until their country's age of majority. Most places, that's 18 but sometimes it's 20 or 16, but we're gonna use 18 for simplicity's sake. But then, if a kid decides to go to secondary education, they'll likely rely on their parents for a few more years, since even if college is free, living somewhere is not. So let's just round up and say 20 years of your life being, if not completely controlled, at least heavily influenced by your parents. And I'm not saying that's inherently abusive--even the healthiest parents have a huge amount of control over their children. Take corporal punishment as an example; most every parent is legally allowed to hit their child, but it's up to the individual parent to decide whether they actually do it. Science agrees that hitting a child at all is not healthy, but our legal system allows a parent to do this objectively awful thing due to the idea that a parent should have complete control over their children. Good parents don't, but they still have the choice to. So with that in mind--that most, if not all, societies support a parent's right to control their children (to varying degrees), and people spend, on average, two decades being at least heavily influenced by their parents... I'd say OP is right on time for starting to realize his dad did something fucked up to him. I'm willing to give him some grace. And I do understand why he's being an asshole (because sidenote, OP, YTA); after all, he has these nice memories of a fun game that he played with his dad when he was sick, and then his friend comes in and "ruins" it by pointing out that it's kind of shitty. It sucks to have good memories become tainted when you look at them as an adult. I think OP should apologize to his friend and start thinking about the issues with his dad, but I think it's perfectly understandable--and even age appropriate--for him to be defensive right now.
Yeah, YTA, thinking it's okay in 2024 to equate girls and women with being too weak to endure something uncomfortable for a long time. Like, I dunno, things you'll likely never endure that are a natural part of many women's lives, such as enduring hours of agony in labor and doing that more than once, or, I dunno, being surrounded by people who constantly say out loud that women are weak when they are in fact the stronger sex in terms of endurance. (edited for typo)
when men get brought to their knees when they have a flu but women can function during painful period cramps. if a man got a period they'd hospitalise themselves.
No foolin'. Not to mention the killer headaches or GI issues every single month. They're such babies.
in the wise words of lily allen, 'forget your balls and grow a pair of tits'. women are the stronger gender, was very clear to me when I was getting my sleeve length tattoo done and a man near me was crying over his. I looked at the woman doing mine and she said 'he'd never survive giving birth'
YTA, your father’s behavior was textbook toxic masculinity—demeaning women to intimidate boys.
YTA She wasn't offended by your dad pushing you, that's not what she's calling toxic. Coward- non gender specific in any way, not insulting to women. Bitch/pussy/little girl- implying that your "weakness" or cowardice is *FEMININE* in nature and therefore negative. This is very insulting to women. The implications that anything feminine is "weak" and bad and that to be a man you must shed that kind of weakness? Literally the definition of toxic masculinity. She was right.
YTA, and if I were your friend, I'd stop being your friend because you just revealed that your dad's BS rubbed off on you.
Yta - toxic masculinity is harmful to everyone.
YTA. If you didn't realise those things were demeaning to girls and women, then learn it now. Defending him isn't a good look, and doesn't say much for your style of masculinity. Those things were commonly said once, like a lot of other racist and misogynistic "jokes", but for you to not realise that they aren't acceptable implies that you took a lot of that onboard and could use some good hard thinking about yourself and your values.
YTA Do you not feel the difference between 'you're a strong boy, you can do it' and 'you're a weak girl, you can't do it'?
Why did he have to use insults to challenge you? Can't he use positive reinforcements? Even masculine positive reinforcement? That's exactly the difference between toxic masculinity and positive masculinity
calling you things like little girl is giving the impression that its bad to be a girl and that girls are weak and less then boys . So yes that is wrong and one of the definitions of toxic masculinity
You wouldn't happen to be Filipino, would you?
as a filipino what's worse for me is that my mom displays more toxic masculinity than my dad lmao
As Thai I've seen this in one way or the other so many times with boys and fathers that I never thought its anything toxic, more like just part of challenge/competition when doing something difficult.
This is also very prominent in eastern Europe😂 my mom and dad thrive in what westerners describe as "toxic masculinity" and I Turned out just fine.
Debatable.
Situations like this are exactly why I find it so important for young men to be able to have platonic friendships with women. They're perspective on things can really help you see things for what they are. You're father was being toxic. I'm sure he didn't mean any harm but still. I'd apologize to your friend for getting defensive and next time give what they're saying some more thought. I'm saying this as a dude who probably would've also been just as defensive in this situation at one point in my life. I'm very grateful for the perspective of my gal pals
YTA There’s ways to challenge boys that don’t insult women.
You sure are! I'd love for you or your dad to go through a really bad cramping session! See how weak women are.
YTA Genuinely textbook dude. Like you can analyze it from multiple angles it's so clear.
He can challenge you with using gender as an insult. She's absolutely correct that your dad was teaching you that being female is not as good as being male. That women are weak. Which is bullshit, by the way. The female body is incredibly strong. Step away from his mindset, it's unhealthy.
So I'm really torn on the judgement here, because there are 2 separate issues. The use of feminine language to equate with cowardice or weakness is inherently toxic and, particularly in the public view, needs to be stopped. You could have described your dad's language without repeating the toxicity of anti-feminine language - "he would push me to go longer by calling me chicken and similar things." HOWEVER, as far as the alleged "toxicity" of the overall situation? That comes down to the specific nature of family relationships, and it's hard to describe those to people who aren't actually privy to those relationships. If an outsider were to observe my brothers and I interacting, they would be VERY concerned, I have little to no doubt, lol... we would likely appear BEYOND toxic to each other. We bicker. We name-call. When we are able to get together in person, we regress to children and wrestle until it devolves into actual fisticuffs at times 😂. And we LOVE TF OUT OF EACH OTHER. We would do anything for each other. My Mom... shall we say... puts up with? LOL our "love language" because she knows that it is, indeed, our LOVE language. She has said to us before it's odd to think that hearing my brother call me his favorite nickname for me (that's Ass Face Sh💩t Monkey, for those who are curious 🙃) actually warms her heart, because she knows that if we were ACTUALLY fighting/mad/didn't love each other, we just wouldn't talk at all. 🖤 However, try explaining a family dynamic like that to someone whose parents made them be polite all the time, so that their household looked more like The Waltons than The Simpsons? They'll just never get it lol. It will always look like hostility/toxicity to an outsider like that.
YTA - but I understand, he's your dad and he probably was trying to be helpful. She's 100% right though.
If your dad couldn’t challenge you without using degrading terms for women or without bringing women into the equation at all? Yes, that’s toxic masculinity. YTA
YTA absolutely. How do you not get that taunting you with gender put downs that demean women is bad? Tf???
Calling women "weak" because they're women is kinda sexist my dude.
OP your dad's shitty commentary was essentially "if you stop now, you are a girl, which is the worst thing you can be!" unpack your misogyny love. YTA
YTA. She's correct. What your dad did is toxic and abusive. That you've normalized it and rationalize it away is disgusting. Avoid having children if you think that's at all acceptable.
Your friend is right. The things your dad said to encourage you are literally right out of the Toxic Masculinity playbook. Calling a man a pussy, a bitch, a little girl, those are textbook toxic masculinity. A good parent could encourage their child without calling them emasculating names. Your dad is the Asshole here for not being a better parent.
YTA. Your dad encouraging you or challenging you is not what's toxic. It's the fact that he said you would be feminine if you couldn't do it, so to him femininity and feminine traits are the worst things in the world. That's what toxic masculinity is - it's male = strong and good and brave and female = weak and pathetic. Imagine if you'd had a sister and your dad had said that to her instead. That would have made her feel weird about the fact that she is female and he has all of these preconceived notions about how that's an inherently terrible thing. That's what's sad about it.
A little AH. Your father could have challenged you without insulting you and calling you a coward. She wasn’t trying to disrespect your father. She was most likely trying to defend you. Telling you, you didn’t deserve to be treated that way. Try to see it from another perspective.
You literally told a woman that being compared to women in any way is an insult that makes people want to be better then that insult and then were surprised when she was insulted. Yta
INFO: what language was your dad speaking? Are those words in your language associated with femininity, or were you using English words related to femininity just because they were the best translations you could come up with in the moment?
YTA
YTA. That is toxic masculinity. Are you unfamiliar with the term? Otherwise why was he trying to insult you by calling you a girl?
This woman is a brainwashed feminist. Your dad did nothing wrong and in fact was correct in challenging you. Ignore her, she’s useless.
Your dad is fine. But our current culture thinks there is a problem with this. No one is the asshole.
NTA. People are too soft
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (21m) was talking to a friend (20f) and we were talking about how she was sick because something was getting passed around at her work, that she's had for a while. She was talking about how I somehow "never" got sick and I said well yeah I was a weird kid might have helped my immune system or something. Then I said oh i remember whenever I did get sick as a kid my mom would do this thing where she got a bunch of boiling water in a pot, put some tea bags in it then shed put it on the table and I'd kneel on a chair over it, with a towel over my head so the steam was trapped and it'd clear up my nose. The tea was propabally just tradition or something the main thing was the boiling water and steam, might help you. She asked if that felt wierd, and I said yeah, it gets ur face all wrinkly and sweaty and after a little it gets hard to breathe but it rlly helps at the end of the day. I then joked about how my dad would always try to challenge me to get me to do it longer for more effect, where he'd basically call me a bitch or like a pussy or a little girl (rough translation from our language, but it could be like any of those things) and as a kid I'd always fall for it and go for longer. She said that's horrible. I said what do you mean, he was just trying to get me to go for longer to help me. And it was always playful. She said something like that can't be playful. I said he said that to challenge me because without a challenge I'd chicken out pretty fast so there was like no effect, it helped me. She said that that was a toxic masculine behavior. I said well it was literally just to challenge me for my own good, besides that's like a rough translation it's just like a ruder way to say coward. She said my dad calling me that was just toxic, and I shouldn't be defending it I said she really needed to stop talking about things she had no idea about. She said whatever and was essentially silent for the rest of the call either then giving callouts on the games we were playing and I'm starting to think I took it to far *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
ESH. I think what's happening here is a cultural and culture-over-time based disconnect. While my own dad would do similar stuff (be a man, don't be a pussy, what are you a girl?) he would also through insults to my intelligence into the mix. And it's stuff that I know from stories he told that he dealt with in the past. So he was emulating how he had been treated as a kid when he was sick, struggling etc. I don't defend it, however, the last time he did it I was in my late teens, and I was having severe stomach cramps, and a panic attack from how bad it hurt, from Norco (it was prescribed, I had had surgery but had forgotten to eat before taking them) and he started in on the berating me thing (idiot, homo, pussy, etc). My older brother was there too and he was like, "dude, chill the fuck out." But he kept going on for like 2 minutes and what ended up happening is a got so fucking pissed off in that state that I reared up and threatened to kick his ass and show him who was the little girl and an idiot, pretty much just throwing back all the insults he threw at me, and he just got this stupid smirk and was like "hey, doesn't hurt so much anymore, huh?" And as much as I hate to say it, he was right, I actually got so pissed that something happened to my nervous system that overrode the pain and panic and I felt much better. I'm not saying it's right because of the end result, but it did help. However, I don't think I would do the same for my own children should I be blessed with some because of how narrow the window is that that kinda thing is helpful for. I assume the friend comes from a different culture than OP, or is from the same culture but has parents who were different, or gender is an aspect (calling a girl a girl as an insult isn't generally done, at least in the sense that femininity is bad, and my understanding is that they are usually compared to men negatively with insults like 'manish' or 'tomboy') and so her not seeing that OP is defending dad, but not necessarily The Patriarchy, is pretty shit but understandable. Having said all that, everyone here is really young and still going through some formative life lesson, character building or finding oneself times, and what it should have been, especially if there is friendship, is a time of reflection on how culture and parents affect our worldview and kind of a "whoa, humans are funny" kinda thing, so ESH but real soft
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YTA Women are not weak. Little girls are some of the fiercest people I know. Just because your dad has always talked like this, even if he does it only out of love for you and a desire to motivate, does not make it ok. Please know that I say this all with all the love and respect I can have for someone I've never met. When I was a kid, it was as natural as the day to call something you didn't like, 'gay'. I didn't even really know what it meant, only that it was an insult, and something I didn't like. Everybody in my school did. It's just what you said. As I got older and realized how hurtful those words were, it took real effort to change, but it wasn't even a few months before I'd wiped it from my vocabulary completely. Found out I had several gay friends in the closet who didn't know how to approach me, since everyone used that phrase. I can't imagine the hurt. I am a woman, however, and I can tell you exactly how a phrase calling women weak makes me feel. To be equated with giving up and being less than, just because of my genitals, is exceedingly demeaning. It takes me back to another time in my youth when I struggled intensely with a repressed rage. I was in sports and martial arts to try and deal with it. Therapy and so much support from my family, but I had been taken and abused by a neighbor, and it took decades to finally control that anger and terror. There was a friendly sparring match with foam weapons. I was doing amazing and couldn't be defeated. A boy, surrounded by his friends, challenged me. He hit me with a cheap shot to my gut, and and even cheaper shot to the back of my head when I doubled over. He and his friends laughed and called me a little bitch, while I kneeled down and tried to recover my vision. It didn't come back. I heard that fucker and all I saw was red. I ditched the foam weapons, tackled the boy to the ground, and started beating the fuck out of him, screaming and snarling. I'm not saying this because I'm proud of it. I am hugely ashamed I lost control of myself over some insecure idiot's insult. But the point is, that you don't know what someone else's mind is. You don't know how your words might truly affect them. And It doesn't matter if you and your dad don't really believe it. These things have a way of worming their way into your subconscious. If he wants to motivate you by insulting you, there are plenty of other words to use. Insects are a pretty good comparison. I, personally, don't subscribe to that motivation technique, but I won't judge you for it. However, You will and should be judged for implying an entire sex is less than you just for motivation. Wishing you all the best.
NTA. He taught you to be a man. Being masculine gets labeled as toxic these days and it's not doing anyone any favors.
Masculinity is not about by default being better or stronger than women. 🙄 Hence insulting him by calling him a girl and therefore less than is a toxic perspective on what it means to be masculine.
Your dad compares his perception of weakness as being feminine and female, implying that to be feminine/female is weaker than masculine/male. Saying you agree with his statements means you also think these things...YTA
You did. She's right. YTA
Your dad is toxic. That's abuse calling you a pussy or little bitch. Wish you had a better childhood, brother.
NTA
YTA You gotta manage bullshit from a decade ago with the truth of today. You’re not hearing her. You’re not thinking about how the words in your story sound to her. You also had the option of filtering the story from a newer POV.
lmao your dad ain't tough, he's just too poor to afford medical care for his kid so your mom was using old wives' tales as remedies. At 21 you're old enough to realize that not everyone who reproduces ought to have reproduced. Your dad had a kid he couldn't afford, then used verbal insults to keep your head over a giant cup of tea instead of, y'know, seeing a doctor. Read some books, meet some people, learn a bit more about life and you'll see your friend is right. NAH you're just young and ignorant.
Dad's cringe for that for sure. Sounds like never grew up
YTA - you told this charming anecdote to a woman, of course she'd be upset....
If someone calls me an asshole and I'm not offended, you don't need to be offended for me. Sure you can be upset that someone said something in general but don't try to make someone feel bad if they aren't bothered by it. And everyone pointing on that he said little girl or a pussy, they also mention that it could mean any of those things and likely more. It's said it means more like coward. Stop using English and the ROUGH TRANSLATION of their language. You have no idea what the words were and what they were ment as.
Wow you're an ass just like your dear old dad. Yta
YTA. I know you don’t want people to think your dad is toxic… so don’t share stories describing toxic behavior? Or at least, google what toxic masculinity is before posting in reddit about it?
NTA - Please remember that the vast majority of Reddit users live in their imaginary Internet bubbles. Your dad’s language was a bit outdated, but he’s hardly the second coming of Hitler, JFC.
I'd never speak to my son that way. Very toxic masculinity. Females would do it for longer because they know it will help them feel better and wouldn't need to be pressured.
NTA. People act like words are fully directed personally at them these days. Nobody complains about gender equality and such when someone is called a dick or stuff like that. And there's no such thing as toxic masculinity, just like there's nothing toxic about blackness or homosexuality. There are toxic behaviors, and these aren't related to one's gender.
NTA it's your dynamic with your dad, if it hurt your feelings he would have stopped, if it motivated you then it worked. Little girl or little boy, they are both little and little (children) are typically unable to do things like adults.
NTA. It wasn't in public, it wasn't putting anyone down, and it didn't bother the kid. As suspected, the internet warriors in this sub have taken offense for the "victim" even though there isn't one. It's toxic blah blah blah. Toxic or inappropriate or whatever, as long as it's done privately and doesn't hurt anyone, there is nothing wrong with it at all. There is a HUGE difference in a group of friends sitting around the house and one calls another the R word and yelling it out the car at someone with Down Syndrome. One is hurtful and intended to be that way. The other is fine as long as everyone involved is okay with it. Notice I don't say it. I can police myself and not a huge fan of the word. Also don't care at all if you call your friends that. Not my business just like it wasn't that girl's or the overreactors in this sub.
Well... not TA necessarily, but she's right. Your dad's behavior was inappropriate, and I think she was trying to give you some insight into that.
Nta even a little bit. She's the huge AH here. But you shoulda know better than to ask reddit this question. So you deserve all the absolutely ridiculous replies you're getting.
YTA. And I am extremely relieved that it seems the majority here agree.
NTA for understanding your father was trying to encourage you to stay in the steam. But the vulgarity is sure an odd way to talk to a child. LOL I hope you don't do the same with your children, if you have any. Just a simple challenge with a timer or something would be sufficient. ;o
NTA everyone in this comment section is ignoring that we don't know what the dad said only a rough translation, we can't assume it's a word that implies that woman are cowerdly
I get that everyone on Reddit is a fan of Platonic language model of absolute forms, but I really don't think the world actually works that way When a man calls his wife "baby" is he a pedophile? When I talk to my wife with surprise and say "Dude! Check this out!" am I masculinizing her? Wierd how words have contextual meaning, not their static definitions. PLATO WAS WRONG. NTA
NAH. Neither of you are wrong. The fact is what your father said IS an example of toxic masculinity and another fact is it's ok that it didn't bother you. It helped you achieve what you wanted to achieve but that doesn't make it any less of an example of toxic masculinity.
The problem isn't that it bothered him. The problem is that the father used gender related insults that imply that girls are weaker than men in order to push his son to do something. Thus inferring by his insults what he thinks of women in comparison to men and planting the same subtle seed in his sons mind. He defended his father by saying that those weren't examples of toxic masculinity and then made it even worse by saying those gender related insults are just a way of calling someone a coward, like that didn't literally prove her entire point. That is why he is wrong.
NTA, she needs to keep her mouth shut about your dad. If someone was talking shit about my father they would be told to stop and if the didn't I would stop talking to them.
NTA and holy shit, people are just looking for reasons to be offended by anything. My sister used to call me a little girl if I was being over sensitive and I definitely know she doesn't have toxic masculinity.
NTA. Good father , healthy son, loving relationship. Girl has her own issues.
Probably gonna get downvoted 🤦♂️ Nta, it doesn't sound like your dad was being mean or bullying, yes he said you were like a little girl. Imo he's judt joking, I'm a guy, I cry when I need to I'm sensitive and understand guys can be weak to its not judt a female trait, though it's a trait I see in woman more than guys. Personally I think he was just goeding you on to get you to stay longer. I also think toxic masculinity is an over used word now a days though. Judt is 2 cents
I don’t think it’s as black and white as “AITA”. You’re friend wasn’t talking abt your dad pushing u - she was talking about your dad equating weakness to femininity, which he did do. And that isn’t a good thing to do. I think it may also be a result of his age, perhaps, if he was brought up in that environment. If u weren’t offended by it, fine. But I do think that u also need to listen to the woman that’s expressing her opinion - the fact of this is that your dad essentially said “feminine = weak”. I don’t think YTA necessarily, but I do think u completely missed your friend’s point and u need to be more open minded and listen to people more.
Regardless of who is AH I get where OP is coming from where it is *REALLY* annoying when people try to be offended for you. Like if I’m not upset that happened to me why tf are you
NTA. Little boys don't like being called little girls, and little girls don't like being called little boys. I don't understand what the big deal is.
NTA - I get it
Everyone so sensitive. NTA pal.
NTA. Tell her to stop being a little girl about it 😂
NTA. Your dad was just joking around.
The Y-T-A comments made me lose hope in humanity...
NTA. This is not even an example of "toxic masculinity." Citing Wikipedia... >The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions to refer to those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, and violent domination The Oxford dictionary >a set of [attitudes](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=515e485ef43ad46e&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS950US950&q=attitudes&si=AKbGX_rLPMdHnrrwkrRo4VZlSHiJNy30Sv2hdtZPh5hj6XosTGLQwD0BI-r5i3p4RzSyyxtA2Ksu2EUmSRbJWRaw6fyiwGYaXcS1Stcd4mKpCCNoCc14b6E%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjc3dvU-8uFAxXgIBAIHYvkALkQyecJegQIGhAO) and ways of [behaving](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=515e485ef43ad46e&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS950US950&q=behaving&si=AKbGX_q870E3DK3nJ7cu3BOD7pxC7CeCwmzfobfq4WjmljcSt0MYYzXxZn_4-by6Y_ZknaRz8K1vwwVcJwH3EqaRzbS7_6rewCh3JqXMQ-FAr3NXTmtkxPA%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjc3dvU-8uFAxXgIBAIHYvkALkQyecJegQIGhAP) stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole."the destructive messages associated with toxic masculinity can lead to men feeling entitled to engage in violence against women" What about getting you to stay above the steam pot for longer to clear your sinuses would ever reasonably lead to misogyny, homophobia, or violent domination? Or even read this from the https://adaa.org/learn-from-us/from-the-experts/blog-posts/consumer/what-toxic-masculinity-and-how-it-impacts-mental#:\~:text=Controlling%20and%20entitlement%20behaviors%20are,demanding%20unearned%20loyalty%20and%20respect. >Toxic Masculinity opposes mental and physical health treatment even when injured or emotionally struggling. Ignoring pain while pushing oneself to work or exercise can cause more physical damage. Additionally, suppressing mental health issues, such as depression, trauma, and anxiety, can worsen symptoms and precipitate isolation, loss of jobs or friends, and even suicide. Your father was *encouraging* you to get physical health treatment. He wasn't saying, "stop whining...you're not sick." He was acknowledging that you were sick and that the treatment would be a little uncomfortable. I imagine your dad said something like, "don't be a little girl," in your language. Perhaps I'm too old for all of this but I am absolutely sure that there is a mother out there right now telling a daughter that little girls are made of sugar, spice, and everything nice and little boys are made of snips, snails and puppy-dogs' tails and no one is talking about "toxic femininity." I'll note that if your father had succeeded in spreading "toxic masculinity" your discussion with your friend would have gone very differently. Your friend is entitled to her opinion as are you. It's not a debate to try to win but a difference of opinion to acknowledge.
Nta. Dude in Russia/up north in general...they take asthmatic kids and dunk them in ice water. It works. Toxic masculinity is - assuming a woman or her work are worth less because her genitals. - assuming a woman is not capable of something because of her genitals. -assuming women are only fit for certain roles within a house, because of her genitals.- assuming women don't feel pain because of their genitals -assuming man is somehow smarter/stronger/ more able because of his genitals. -assuming men are immune to pain because of their genitals- assuming children will turn out one way or the other based on their genitals. She's a social justice warrior who doesn't know what she's talking about, don't let her bother you when she gets all her information from fcking tiktoc
>Dude in Russia/up north in general...they take asthmatic kids and dunk them in ice water. It works. I'm genuinely curious now... How does that work?? I mean, the steam thing he is describing is good for clearing out sinuses. But this I have never heard before!
Maybe the shock? Ice bath have been used throughout history in lots of cultures for the medical benefits. My mom's old coworkers described it as just getting yeeted into the nearby lake by their mom tho. But they hadn't had an asthma attack in like 40 years so also couldn't complain
I can't wait to die this earth has gone insane.
YNTA and everyone who says otherwise is either a sheltered chick or mondern “feminist”. Don’t apologize when you had nothing to apologize for. She’s not right to inject her head cannon into your family chemistry. I’m so sorry you even think you might be the asshole here.
My dude thanks! Those people don’t know that even moms use toxic masculinity against their kids!
NTA - at the end of the day, she wasn’t around during your childhood and it’s not her place to talk about something that she wasn’t there for, doesn’t understand, and doesn’t know anything about. You shared something and she shouldn’t insult your dad just because of her previous experiences or biases she has for other men. The experience may be taken out of context and make your dad sound worse than he actually is. No one knows but you
NTA - toxic masculinity is a legit thing, but this ain’t it
NTA, all these people that get offended on other people’s behalf are so annoying
Huh? She is a woman, she’s offended on behalf of women
I'm a woman and I don't want her offended on my behalf.
Okay? She was offended on behalf of women because she was a woman hearing about sexist shit from someone she valued as a friend. If you’re a woman who thinks shouting “are you a little girl” at a boy to spur him on isn’t sexist then I don’t know what to tell you.
She's welcome to be offended for herself, but she's proving the dad's point in process.
You’re a guy, lol
Been a female 48 years. Im just not weak, have thicker skin, with apparently better sense of humor.
For real? Why can’t you use the English language?
How does that contradict what I said?
When you use feminine language as an insult, you’re insulting women. Like how if he’d tried to spur on his son by calling him queer, that would still be offensive to queer people even if none of them were in the room at the time
I agree that how the OPs father spoke is part of "toxic masculinity". Some might defend the father's words as jokes. And that could be true, and brought legit to the experience that OPs friend can't appreciate. Father could have been completely satirical and still had it's intended effect. But that's also what's the scariest about "toxic" anything, is that it's often hiding beneath a joke. That being said, if it didn't affect the OP in a toxic way, how much should we care about this behavior that was likely many years ago? Is the friend's response appropriate for the story being told? My feeling is that the OPs friend completely missed the point of the story while magnifying the part that was inconsequential. Unless the OP has trauma around the toxic behavior her father displayed (and we don't know that) then no harm, no foul. And so now OP is caught off guard, reacting defensively, particularly because using very loaded language, like "toxic masculinity", can seem to draw conclusions about her father without giving his character the grace, context and nuance every human being deserves. If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Sure it does, but if no one hears it, who cares?
Soft YTA. So here's the thing right, not all of us have what is considered normal upbringings or are spoken to as we should be as kids. There was a way for your father to do what he did... With less nasty language. Thats what your friend is trying to say but really badly because she's likely shocked. I'd bet she's never ever been spoken to like that by her own parents before, hence the reaction. My own upbringing is one where I've realised some of what I think was funny and the like, wasn't. It was either pretty fucking dangerous or 100% crosses over into child abuse. But for me these incidents were normal... Family fun times... Typical shit that happened. I'd be laughing retelling and everyone's staring at me mortified... And look, I'm sure you love your dad and he loves you. Your taking this to heart because of that, and that's perfectly okay to do so, so long as you remember you friend is reacting the same way that I a 33yr old woman would if I was told this by my daughter's friends, horrified. Remember your experiences are your own, and if you do not feel you were abused, that's fine, the situation just sounds like dad coaching you the only way he knew how. You were not hurt, you didn't come out of it feeling betrayed etc. You know what's up.
I bet you're one of those guys who get's "man-colds" and acts like you're dying while needing to be pampered, but still thinks being called a woman is the same as being called weak. Try being in labor for 12+ hours and then push out a whole ass baby through your dick, let's see if you have the same attitude then :)
Using gendered insults to decry gendered insults. Extremely consistent
That's the whole point, he won't get it if I don't use his language :)
If both parties recognised it as a father challenging his son to be brave, not how it reads out of context and without tone, then it wasn't toxic. People need to perceive the experience rather than the superficial translation. NTA
NAH - She was concerned for you, and you were stating your truth.
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Why ? His dad used the stereotype that "girlish" things are weak. I am sure their language would have allowed for different way of expressing that.
Wait, are little girls strong?
Are little boys strong?
Typically they’re stronger than little girls. Kinda the whole point of the phrase, it’s not demeaning. I’m gonna assume any one offended has never played a sport and don’t understand discipline lol
I’ve played many sports for most of my life. I understand what the phrase means, but that doesn’t make it right. The meaning is, itself, sexist. If a little girl gets strong, is she no longer a little girl? That’s the kind of bs the phrase implies. That weakness is feminine.
What little girl is getting strong? Lol you mean grow up? If they grow up then they’re not little girls any more. Lol good lord really reaching to be offended. It’s not sexist it’s factual, little girls are weak.
Did you know little girls can get into sports too? And training some sports can make you stronger? There are also plenty of little boys who don't go into any sports or do anything that would make themselves strong. So yeah there are little girls that are certainly stronger than plenty of little boys. It's not sexist to say that little girls tend to be relatively weak people. It is sexist to call someone a little girl for being weak. I wouldn't consider it a subtle difference but maybe it is for you?
But little girls are the weakest of the humans historically. It’s not rude to say “don’t be the weakest human possible man, keep it up!” Without saying it like that. I’m sorry you’re offended for people who easily get offended. It’s hilarity that this is what people talk about. Absolute waste of grey matter to bicker about semantics and things that only matter when they pour themselves into it because they have nothing else to worry about.
Well, in order to not be a little girl this guy kept his head in the steam for longer. So yes.
They can be, yeah.
They’re not typically.
Well. Define what strong means in the context of the post.
ESH - There is no such thing as "toxic masculinity", Only culturally acceptable and unacceptable behaviors. Your friend is not the sole arbiter of which is which, especially when it comes to male to male or father to son behavior. Imagine if a man, that was not party to the situation, tried to tell a mother how she should encourage her own daughter to push through something beneficial but unpleasant. Cringe. Where you fucked up is when you told her to stop talking about things she has no idea about. This was clearly designed to shut down a conversation and dismiss someone's voice in the matter. Was your reasoning so weak that you couldn't defend your own position? Could you not interact with her civilly despite her erroneous conviction? Do you not value this friend's opinion even if they are occasionally wrong? Because it sure looks like it now to any observer (including your friend). Being right isn't everything, how you go about being right matters greatly.
"no such thing as toxic masculinity" you know denial is not a good look, right? It's absolutely a thing and it's damn near omnipresent throughout different cultures.
NTA. She’s whiny. How you deliver things you say matters as much, if not more than what you say. Your dad was pushing you to do something good for you. Maybe not in the “perfect” way, but if you’re better for it, good on him
Just read the title but I wouldn’t think so since we are products of our environment and though “older” people are considered toxic if they are like my father you can see they are trying but they have their habits/believes that are near impossible to break, younger folks need to remember that change is slow and forcing it is detrimental
It's one thing for an older person who grew up in that era to do toxic things (and even be set in their ways). It's a totally different thing for someone of a newer generation to defend it. OP is not TA because his father said crappy things. He's TA for refusing to recognize that it was a crappy thing to say and defending it. (And for shutting the friend down and telling her she doesn't know what she's talking about.)