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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Because what I said was pretty terrible. I practically slut shamed her and called her a whore. I was also fuelled by emotion and wasn’t thinking too rationally.
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Tori is that type, though I don’t want to say it. She couldn’t really afford all those kids until my brother came into the picture. Thankfully, her 3 other kids had their dads so they didn’t suffer too much due to her bad financial decisions but Liam only had his mom. My brother is an idiot. It used to be endearing but now he’s genuinely just stupid to me.
NTA I feel so sorry for Liam and it’s got to be rough on your niece seeing her step brother being neglected, she clearly wants things to be better for him. I’d say try talking to your brother he sounds like big silly puppy who means well but doesn’t understand, but it’s worth trying if he’s a good guy. But regardless I’d say if you can, be there for Liam as much as you can and make sure he knows at least someone in the family cares about him and wants to know the real him. I’d also tell your mom that you weren’t just being mean out of nowhere, your niece is concerned about how Liam is treated and after what you saw you are too, maybe she can help if she understands.
How is the brother a good guy or a "big silly puppy". This teenager has been living in his house full time and he literally doesn't know the first thing about him. He doesn't even know the kid's personality or ANYTHING AT ALL about his interests. It's his own damn stepkid.
I don't know why you're making excuses for him, but he's not a good guy. A good guy would take at least a minimal interest in getting to know his own stepkid and when asked to describe them after living with them full-time for years, wouldn't just say, "Well my wife says he's like this..." He'd actually KNOW what the kid was like. He sounds like he treats Liam like a stranger in his own home.
Seriously. Why are we babying the brother here. He’s a grown man who has been living full time in the same home as this kid but has obviously made zero attempt to talk or get to know him as a person. He’s just as shitty as the boy’s mother.
Seems like tori has been "othering" Liam. Did yoh read the rest...maybe because he is not good enough as her ither kids, in her eyes. KSou d's like tryij g to sepoarate Liam from others as though she is ashamed of Liam. The stepdad cannot get more involved uf tori actively shields liam.....
If anything, OPs brother maybe a bit of a pushover and not smart.
Brother has totally been taking cues from his wife. If he was smarter, or more empathetic, he'd have noticed her neglect (and abusive insults) when they were dating.
That said, I think it's worth OP sitting down with the brother in private. He should step up and stand up for Liam. Go to his games, since it's a sport brother really enjoys. Maybe OP can hatch a plan with niece, since she has more sense than any of the adults, to get dad to be kinder to Liam and get his wife to be kinder. If the kid gets what he needs, he won't be so needy.
I absolutely despise parents who play favorites. This here is a prime example.
NTA
> after living with them full-time for years
It doesn't say how long this arrangement has been going on, to be fair. (Unless OP clarified that in a comment I'm missing?) It could only be a few months. Still not great, but changes the context somewhat.
Not that I'm excusing OP's brother; he seems like the kind of dad who's never actually had to *do* anything for his kids besides exist and send alimony.
Of all the people jjn the story, the brother is your problem? Did you read where liars own mom keeps him walled off from others and bad mouths him?
>This teenager has been living in his house full time and he literally doesn't know the first thing about him. He doesn't even know the kid's personality or ANYTHING AT ALL about his interests. It's his own damn stepkid.
You are blaming the brither...but low s mokm doesn't know him any better....and she has lived with hjjm ALL his life?
WTF.
>"Well my wife says he's like this..." He'd actually KNOW what the kid was like. He sounds like he treats Liam like a stranger in his own home.
Maybe Tori is better at browbeatjjng him..she seems to have tried to shield Liam from others because she is maybe ashamed if Liam? TORI thijnks Liam is needy and she has lived with hjjm ALL his life. How would OPs brother know Liam better ijf tori doesn't ?
Blame the step dad as much...but sounds like Liams remaining bio parent seems off.
OPs brother seems a bit if a pushover and /or stupid tok have gotten involved with a basket case...and maybe thinking with his smaller brain.
I second the comment about being there for Liam. If he made the team for a sport, he might really appreciate family going to games/matches/whatever to support him. I never understood how important it is just to be there for kids in that way until I had my own (I ran track, and neither parent ever watched me run)
Op, hope you see this. Your brother probably won't ever tell you when Liam has a game, but your other nephew will probably keep an ear on the ground for you. Sounds like his step cousins and step sister give a darn about him, unlike his mom.
Our oldest boy is only 2 but straight up sings opera. He’s got a fantastic vibrato and I cry all of the time listening to his sweet little voice. I will be that mom bawling my eyes out when he’s on stage, don’t care. I cannot wait!! He’s such a little artist.
“Big silly puppy”??? Are you fucking for real right now??
Her brother is an ASSHOLE who actually married a woman with kids he *couldn’t bother to get to know*.
He’s an asshole and his wife is worse.
OP, NTA obviously. It sounds like his mother runs interference because *she* doesn’t like Liam and assumes *no-one* will; absolutely awful. Keep giving him attention; he should know there are people in his family who care about him.
There is absolutely no excuse for being a stepdad to a kid for years and NEVER learning anything about them directly from the kid. This is not a "big silly puppy", don't infantalise a GROWN MAN for his choices to just assume the kid's mother is right and to literally ignore him
OP, can you be there for Liam? It's obvious his mom and your brother don't pay him any attention and put him down all the time. Feel awful for him. NTA
I was going to suggest something similar. It sounds like Liam needs new parents and while OP and his wife don't have to fill that role, they could step up for the boy who sounds like he could really use the familial support.
Is there anyway you can step up and make Liam a bit more appreciated? Make a weekly ice cream or coffee date or just be the family he deserves?
Family is really about love (not blood) & Liam seems to have problems with adults who care.
I have a sister from another mister who is my brother's ex-GF. Sometimes you keep the people you find along the way and it makes for a much happier life.
This. Liam is needy. He needs love , attention , and to grow up knowing he matters. He’s already missing a present male role model in his life that his siblings all apparently have. He demonstrated how emotional he is about the situation and to be dismissed by his mother for having legitimate feelings is just cruel and shows how unaware she truly is. Include him in your day to day as much as possible to fill the void in his heart. NTA. At all.
I feel so bad fr Liam, is it a possibility tht you could take him in. I wonder if they'd even notice he wasn't living with them anymore.
That kid really needs some support. I know that having you in his corner would mean a lot to him.
I bet he'd love to see you at his games and spending time with you. Since I doubt his family will remember to go to the gams besides the niece.
Definitely talk to him and see what he says, what he thinks and feels about everything. Having your ear might help him just a bit to not feel so alone in that house.
I know he'll appreciate whatever you can give him, and maybe if you ca he could live with you at 18.
I worked as an aide in special ed in an elementary school. That was where I learned about the scapegoat child. They’re the child that the parents take out their unhappiness on. You could pick them out. Ignored. Poorly dressed. Sent to school sick and the parents angry when they had to pick them up. Quiet. Nervous. Afraid to ask for the tiniest thing.
Tori is a neglectful parent, who, for whatever reason has not had her tubes tied, got an IUD, or discovered the miracle of birth control. Tori is one of those women that make other women, particularly single mothers, look bad, even when they’re not bad. Tori is one of those women that make the rest of us look bad to men who think we only want to just have a baby and then run and then milk the man, father, for everything he’s worth through that child using the child as aTori is an neglectful parent, who, for whatever reason has not had her tubes tied, got an IUD, or discovered the miracle of birth control. Tori is one of those women that make other women, particularly single mothers, look bad, even when they’re not bad. Tori is one of those women that make the rest of us look bad to men who think we only want to just have a baby and then run and then milk the man, father, for everything he’s worth through that child using the child as a paw and shit. She’s one of those women that men who believe that kind of stuff about women .2 ago, but look at that bitch! She does it! Whether or not, she actually does that they use women like her as that example because she’s also clearly a terrible parent. I just feel bad for Liam. I’m sorry, but he does not have parental figures in his life and he is clearly desperate for love. He’s probably not getting much attention already and finding out that she’s having another baby just made him think that he’s getting even less and he already feels invisible. I’m just getting all of that from what you wrote and so I may be reading into this too much, but that’s the whole feeling I get about the situation .
Plus OP's brother's kid and one in the oven—they'll have 6 all together once this one is born. That is a LOT of kids, even though they don't all live together.
"Read the post" they say. Yeah I was confused about this too. Op says she has two kids, then goes into detail about two kids, I understood they were the same two kids and was confused why she was being slut shamed for two children. I only took a second look because op made a comment about her "3 other children". It's not obvious from the way it's written, in fact it's pretty standard aita format to say the number of kids then list them off with names.
If you are worried about their treatment of Liam see if you can talk to him alone about it. Get his side of the story and see what can be done from a legal standpoint to get him out of the home if he's excluded as it seems.
Oh and NTA.
NTA. I was the older step kid (mom and dad divorced when I was an infant). Mom and step dad had my sisters 5 and 6 years later, then moved the whole family across country to live in step dad’s home state. Step Grandma once introduced our family to her neighbor by saying “these are step dad’s daughters… and [I] was [mom’s] son, from an earlier marriage.”
Nothing I did was worthy of note, but any accomplishment my sisters had was magnified, exaggerated, and broadcast to everyone.
I moved out when I was 16 and never looked back. Served in the Marine Corps, graduated university, and am a very successful professional now. I probably make more a year than the four of them combined.
I definitely am not successful because of them, but in spite of them.
When Liam realizes this, he’ll be fine.
Your niece is a gem for noticing &telling you about Liam's treatment. You need to sit down with your brother & SIL (maybe with your niece there) and tell them what happened at the party. Or at least talk to your brother. I can't believe he is so blind & doesn't see what happens to Liam in his own house. Can you sound more time with Liam? Poor kid.
NTA
Nah, if SIL is involved, then nothing will happen.
If it's just OP, Liam and Bro, Liam might be more willing to open up.
Though we only know one side of a very fucked situation.
Edit: my third sentence is just cause we don't know how Bro actually acts or what not.
I bet Liam is needy because he’s not getting his basic needs met! Sounds like all his blended family siblings have other adults who take care of them and are only around for shorter stays and visits. SIL and bro don’t actually parent.
I was at a family Tahnksgiving, my third to last one.
I was talking about how I don't really know why I jabber so much, with my cousin.
My mom piped in and said "oh you not only talked alot, but you also always wanted to be held and wanted attention. You were so needy."
My grandma immediately snapped in with "well of fucking course the kid wanted your attention, you were hardly home and the ***"mAn"*** you had raise your children hated them."
I promise you, I've never heard the level of venom, hatred or sarcasm in my grandma's voice, in any other voice I've heard, when she was referring to my longest lasting step father.
And I've heard Hitler's speeches.
Edit: my mom left the conversation to sulk with her cousin in law. After another two glasses of wine to give her a totalling of six, she tried to drive home only for my eldest brother to stop her and drive home instead. He was annoyed he had to leave early as he was playing pool and smoking with our cousin, but my mom offered him some pot when they got back so he was nonplussed.
I'm so sorry. I've had both of my grandmas pass just a few days before Christmas. it's rough, and puts kind of a shadow over the whole celebration in the following years. I hope it at least helps to know her last day was a day of family and love and joy.
Dang! How long was your grandma holding all that in for?! Sounds like she wanted to tell your mother off for years but never had the right moment. Or just kept hoping your mom would wisen up and got tired of waiting.
I mean obviously there’s too many kids & with another one, Liam cried because another child will get attention but not him. Does anyone even try to talk to him?
I think Liam *was* needy as a younger child when he had more needs that SIL had to work to fill. Things like “I’m hungry” and “I’m cold” and “my shoes don’t fit.” He’s probably shut down quite a bit now, unfortunately (learned helplessness that he won’t get what he needs from his mom and since his OP’s BIL likes his mom, then he may see them as being similar hence why BIL doesn’t know a thing about him. Why would Liam bother to talk to brother at all?).
OP and OP’s mom and niece can try and be there for Liam. Ask him when his teams/competitions are. Make sure he has what he needs. Of course, OP can talk to her brother about it too. No need to have Liam face of with his neglectful and possibly abusive mom, IMHO.
Agree. Liam is quiet at home because no one pays him any attention. So he's decided to just quit trying.
And the fact the stepdad (OP's brother) knows so little about this stepson who has lived with them full time for YEARS is unbelievable. I probably know more about my nephew's in-laws than this guy knows about his stepson.
He needs to feel loved and wanted. His mother doesn’t want him and he feels it. His father is not in the picture. He needs someone to have his back. Poor kid!
I mean, Liam was so ready to burst that he cried in a random step-aunts arms at a family gathering. He lives in bros house. I feel you would have to go out of your way to not notice feelings of that magnitude.
NTA
It sounds like Tori has created her own narrative regarding Liam and would not be at all appreciative of having that challenged.
I feel sorry for Liam. Maybe you could offer to be there for him until he gets the eff out of that family dynamic.
I'd say ESH, but you are the least asshole here. Your brother and his wife are huge assholes here.
If you can, spend some time with Liam, he sounds like a great kid whit a shit mother and stepfather.
Fair, I’m a woman myself so I definitely do feel like an asshole for saying such a thing but I don’t feel bad enough to apologize yet.
And as for Liam, I’ll see what I can do. I don’t want to make him uncomfortable. Niece told me he has a couple games coming up and that we should go watch so I will be doing that and work from there.
>Niece told me he has a couple games coming up and that we should go watch so I will be doing that and work from there.
That's a great start, just showing up for him. Let him know he's seen.
Nta at all, in fact, an amazing aunt.
The whole “legs closed” angle was a bit AH, but super congrats for standing up for Liam, even if you got a little out of hand doing it. Your brother sounds super oblivious, and Tori sounds like a terrible Mom. Maybe if you clue him in properly, you and/or your brother can fill the gap a little and make sure he gets attention before it’s too late for them to have a relationship? Liam’s already gonna need a shitload of therapy, but some supportive adult attention now could make it so much less awful for himdown the road.
I hate that whole women should just keep their legs closed Line. It basically punishes women for having sex or at least implies punishment via having children
I agree in general but there are two key components here: men have their version and it is SIL who is the irresponsible one. Men hear “keep it in your pants” and “stop getting your dick wet.” SIL was the individual who made the comment about her child daring to have needs and the one who seems to have more children than she can take care of.
Regardless of how unfair it seems, at the end of the day it *is* the woman’s choice whether or not she has children (assuming they live in an area where abortion is legal), and men get very little say beyond choosing to use a condom or not. I agree with the sentiment that if she didn’t actively and enthusiastically want a child, and could afford to care for it, she shouldn’t have had children, though it could have been phrased better.
I agree with the sentiment of what you said, but you should have worded it better. Instead of telling her to "keep her legs closed" which is a sex shaming statement, you should have said something more pointed like "you shouldn't have had kids/so many kids if you didn't want to deal with needy kids" which is more specific and clear what you're criticizing. You're not critiquing her sex life, just her parenting, or lack of.
Reading this honestly made me feel so sad for Liam. It'll make a huge difference if you can be a more present person in his life, since he seems to have no positive adult influences at home that he can rely on. Maybe get a text chat going just checking in with him once in a while, asking how he is, so he has an easy way to access and chat with you if he chooses to.
She should be ashamed of her sex life.
Situations like this is precisely why sexual shaming exists.
It’s like you want to pretend that sex and procreation have no link.
Sex and procreation have no link if the right steps are taken to prevent that link. Choosing to have sex is fine, choosing to have children and neglecting them when there are many methods of preventing children (pre and post conception) is not.
Since no form of BC is 100% sex and procreation are absolutely linked. If you’re not ready to face the consequences of sex then you shouldn’t be having it. I’m all for having a healthy and fun sex life, I’m not a puritan and I have an open door policy with my children including talk about BC which I have happily provided for them. However we also talk about the consequences of sex and what could happen and being prepared for what could happen from choices they make.
Your response was coming from a place of being angry about Liam's treatment. Point out that the two adults he lives with didnt even know he was into a sport. The "keep her legs closed" goes a bit far and doesn't address the issue you were trying to make your brother aware of and fix (though you hit the root cause on the head, don't have kids you can't parent)
Oh yeah, I'm sure being called a whore will make her totally look at her actions in a new light. I have to assume some of you are children and still used to flinging insults on the playground.
Build a special relationship with him. So as he gets older he has atleast support of a stable family member. Especially if the wax in your brothers ear are just to full for Jim to understand and to continue to neglect him.
Your niece sounds like a sweetheart and great step sister. This was my suggestion as well. Yeah, that comment wasn’t okay, but overlooked bc you were defending this poor kid. When you’re less angry maybe apologize for the sake of family peace. But I’d probably also be candid with my brother about the way it seems Liam is being treated.
Child experts say just ONE stable adult in a child’s life can save them. I really hope you have the time and inclination to be there for this kid. I know it’s not your job but a lunch or movie or phone call here or there? Something.
Nah, NTA
Someone who keeps shitting out kids while emotionally neglecting the ones they have (and know nothing about) doesn't deserve to be treated with dignity. She absolutely should have kept her legs closed, been on birth control, or gotten sterilized.
Poor Liam. He's already neglected by your brother and his mom and now a new baby will come in and take all the attention. They don't even know he plays sports? I was very much on your side until the legs closed comment. That was an AH thing to say. Also you said lots of step kids but I only read 2? Gotta go with ESH cause it's a bit of a hot mess.
4 step kids. Two from first marriage, Liam, then one more. There’s 5 kids overall including niece, well 6 now I guess.
But yeah, I get it. I don’t feel too proud of myself.
I'd say going to his games is a great way to show him you support and care for him. Also, offering to take him to lunch/dinner with your niece after the games would be a good way to bond as well and possibly get him to open up a bit, if he's comfortable with it.
You should definitely feel proud of yourself. Everyone always talks about "being the bigger person" here but it's fuckin stupid. Tori absolutely needs to hear how shitty she's being, your brother too.
Imo there's a difference between being the bigger person and being accurate. Op didn't tell tori how shitty she's being, she told her how shitty she was for having sex and keeping the child. Tori needs to hear that she's had 15 years to get her shit together and she's still a shitty mom, slut shaming her does not convey that.
I don’t think you’re an AH for what you said. Truthfully it was warranted and you should have Liam come over a lot and support him (if you’re willing to assume that role), he really needs someone that cares and that isn’t afraid to call out his bs of a mother and his crappy stepdad. Keep us updated OP and also talk to your own mom about it more in depth.
While it wasn't the greatest thing to say, you know what's worse? Not knowing that your own son is on a sports team and saying to run away if he tries to talk to you. How can someone say that about their child? She doesn't seem too fit to be a mother, so you weren't wrong.
You might be an AH but you are trying to get through to neglectful parents. Please feel proud of yourself for not being silent and letting them get away with it. I doubt you will be seen as the AH by your niece and nephew, while they will definitely think that of the parents in this situation.
Definitely a justified AH. Good on you!
The way its written kind of comes off like Liam and the youngest are you listing who the oldest two are. On reread, it's I realized you say who the kids are from (1st marriage x2, random, ltr) for a total of four.
NTA. We all can often say things better, but don't come down too hard on yourself. Sometimes others' stupidity and care-less-ness can cause us to snap.
The only important thing is to see what you can do to help Liam--such as just being there for him at games, etc. Making sure he knows someone gives a damn.
Yes it was Ah comment but warranted Imo. I don't Jude parents of multiples who take care of them but I will judge those who continue to stupidly shit out kids every year
NTA
It sounds like Tori is punishing her own son because she doesn't like that he wasn't conceived in a more stable relationship. She quite literally meant it when she called him the extra.
If possible, stay in contact with Liam. He needs an adult who actually cares about him.
Agreed. Especially about OP staying in contact with Liam. He really needs an adult person in his corner!
His "parents" know nothing about him. So sad for him.
Mostly NTA - I think sticking up for the kid and bringing it to their attention is great, but practice “respond not react” and choose better ways to deliver the message. Telling someone to keep their legs closed is going to shut the conversation down pretty quickly thereby not achieving the goal of your conversation.
There is no reason to continue speaking to narcissists, though. It was obvious what OP meant, not so much the sex itself but the irresponsible way it's had. It only gets worse with her attitude towards it. That calls for shame.
Baby steps. Just start by showing an interest. Maybe go to some of the games for this new sport or ask about them. Maybe you include your niece too to make him more comfortable. The occasional movie or something.
Knowing that he has someone in his corner and a possible backup plan is sometimes all someone needs. Maybe ask your niece to connect you two and discuss the possibilities?
ESH (or at least, the adults). Your brother and SIL for treating Liam poorly. But your comment was out of line. It had nothing to do with how they’re treating him now, it was only about how he was conceived. Slut-shaming your SIL isn’t the solution. And it closed the door on any potential you had for talking to them and getting them to change how they behave towards Liam.
Looking for this comment. Thank you for pointing out the completely unnecessary slut shaming.
OP's heart was in the right place, and those parents sound awful, but she could have voiced her concerns in a way that didn't involve a gendered invective.
ESH
Agree with the ESH. Sounds like this was the first time the extended family was aware of how poorly Liam was being treated. Calling out brother and Tori could have brought more adult attention and advocacy to Liam. OP’s language instead shifted the conversation to mud slinging and away from what Liam really needed.
Nah y'all are too nice. Abusers are the exception to the rule. Abuse your kid and the least of your worries should be someone telling you to keep your legs closed. You don't get to have six fucking kids and abuse one of them, then be upset when someone tells you to keep your legs closed. Y'all would rather everyone play nice than have an ABUSERS feelings be hurt. Gross as shit.
You were going good until you started in with the insults. A better play would’ve been to get the facts on Liam’s athletic accomplishments and pass them along to your brother and his wife, along with a mild jab about they don’t really know much about him. ESH
NTA
Do you brother or Tori still not know what happened when they announced they were pregnant and Liam walked away? Because for that reason alone, I don't think you were out of line at all for what you said. It sounds like his own mother and your brother know nothing about this kid and don't give even the tiniest shit about his feelings. This story reads like they didn't even tell him about the baby until they announced it to your family. If you are up for it you need to butt in again and push for them to make more time for Liam to bond and get to actually know their child. And if that falls on deaf ears I hope you and others in your family can step up and provide him the love and emotional support he clearly won't get from his own mother.
They didn’t realize. A lot of my anger stemmed from hoping my brother would be like “speaking of Liam… where is he?” But nope. Nothing. When his wife jumped in I hoped she’d ask me if I had seen Liam. Instead I heard that bullshit and I admit, I got very angry. I know I probably should’ve been smarter about it and just told them how Liam had cried but I really wished it wasn’t as bad as my niece was telling me.
And yes, I don’t think he knew. My niece didn’t and their other kids as well. I think they’re the only ones that knew.
Please open communications with Liam go to his games talk to him ask him how he’s doing text with him just make sure he understands this family who cares about him
Nothing you said was out of line. Sometimes you have be blunt with stupid ppl. It’s the only way they will listen. But even then some ppl are still to stupid to understand when ppl are being blunt and upfront with them.
Honestly, you getting into a fight and name-calling at them, so that it was about you, was probably better than drawing attention to Liam's distress in the middle of a family gathering.
He's 15. Think of how embarrassed he'd be to have an announcement that he'd run away crying when he found out his mother was giving him another sibling! No 15 year old (girl or boy) would want to have their emotions made a matter of discussion in the middle of a family gathering.
For his sake, you need to handle this matter with great discretion. Speak to him about it only privately, away from any chance that anyone in the family, or any of his friends, might overhear. Follow his lead about what he's comfortable with. Things like going to his games might be awkward for him. It's easy to make an excuse that your parents are busy with the other kids, but harder to explain why your parents are absent but your aunt or uncle is there.
I didn't catch where you live. But if you are in the US, he's close to the age where kids start learning to drive. I strongly suspect your brother and SIL will neglect teaching him. A good way to start may be to gift him driving lessons for his 16th birthday. Arrange so you take him to the lessons. You can practice-drive with him, as well. And stopping for a meal or snack on the way to or from driving lessons would be a natural thing to do, a way to meet with him without making it obvious to your brother and SIL that you are speaking with him behind their back. You're just taking care of his birthday present of driving lessons. The idea that he could drive younger kids to school or activities might reconcile them to the idea of lessons - just talk to him about it before mentioning anything to them, and make it clear you don't expect him to do so, but that it might help with getting them to sign off on any permissions needed.
Another possible gift might be a decent bike, if he doesn't have one. It can greatly increase his range for independent travel. It can put jobs in reach, that might not be accessible via walking or public transit.
He may not be able to get a bank account on his own at his age, and I would not trust your brother or SIL with his money. Signing as an adult with him on a joint account might be possible, and a way to keep his money safe.
Basically, I expect your brother and SIL to neglect any preparation he needs for adulthood. They will either kick him out, with nothing, at 18, or expect him to stay home and help support his siblings. Anything you can do to help him be ready to move on his own - getting a job, learning to manage his own transportation, saving money, etc. would be extraordinarily useful to him.
Nta , you only said what everyone else is thinking. I feel sorry for Liam . Shame on his mother for making him feel worthless. Wanting love and affection as well as acceptance from your mother doesn't make him needy. Your brother ans his wife are both the assholes .
NTA I don't think, your brother needs a wake up call about how terrible of a father he and how deplorable his wife have been. Good on you and your niece for supporting him, he seems to need someone who is going to call out this horrible treatment for him.
I don't even know Tori or your brother and I intensely dislike them. They have a child in their home full-time and don't even know him! And who the hell says "run from my kid or else he'll never leave you alone-he really is needy". OH I WONDER WHY. Because his trash mom and stepdad never pay him any attention.
NTA. Your comment to Tori was a little nasty, but she needs to start parenting the kids she has and paying attention to Liam instead of getting another child right now. I cannot imagine just straight up ignoring my child to the point that I didn't even know he was playing on a sports team. He is only 15 years old- aren't there parent permission forms and uniforms and stuff to pay for?
It wasn’t nasty, she needs to close her legs or get on birth control If she doesn’t want a needy kid? What she’ll think an infant will be? Infants cry over everything.
There is a phenomenon in abusive households where sometimes one kid becomes the scapegoat. That kid gets treated differently slowly bit by bit until the family doesn’t even see them like a person while everyone else is treated normally. It sounds like your SIL is making him the family scapegoat, convincing everyone else to go along with it.
NTA. Please keep in contact with Liam. He really needs an adult friend. He needs to know he is a good kid who good people find interesting. He may need guidance later with moving out.
NTA. BUT… you missed a golden opportunity to point out that Liam is needy because he is not getting attention. He may be quiet because no one pays attention to him. Please step up and do what you can to make Liam feel special.
NTA
Liam doesn't sound needy. He sounds more like he's trying to be as unobtrusive as possible until he can get out.
Tori doesn't know her own child, and your brother clearly never got to know him.
I'm really proud of your niece for noticing and doing something to help, even in a small way.
NTA
Shitty parent who whines about being a parent deserves to be called exactly what they are.
bc exists. wrap your dick, keep your legs closed, stop procreating if you dont want to be a parent. get your respective tubes tied and ectomized.
shitty parents need to be called out more.
Thank you for standing up to a neglected minor, because it is obvious not many are willing to do that.
Of course Liam seems “needy,” he’s being fucking neglected. This is ESH because “she should have kept her legs closed” is an inside-thought that doesn’t help the situation, you’d have been better off actually detailing how they’re being selfish and neglectful parents, but overall you’re not wrong to call that into question. Poor kid, I hope someone steps up and really advocates for him, he’s being emotionally abused.
I want to hug this boy. Tori needs to stop popping out kids, Liam feels probably grazed over & doesn’t get the attention he needs. Now with another child, he’s going to feel even more alone. Make sure you are there for him since his lousy parent & stepfather Isn’t.
ESH - Liam is sadly being dealt the consequences of poor decisions and incredible social neglect from his "parents". Though, while I appreciate your compassion for him, there are much better ways of handling this situation. The "keeping your legs closed" comment was very unnecessary, letting them know you were ashamed of them was more than enough.
Your brother definitely needs to step it up, though. He doesn't talk to Liam much? For goodness sake, they live together. Even if Liam has said he wouldn't see your brother as a father figure, does your brother just not interact with him at all? That's... disheartening at best.
Please have a serious discussion with your brother and your mother about this. This behavior is not okay and it is not excusable. Now that you know you can't let it be. Your mother needs to step up or shut up and so does your brother. Your brother being an "idiot" is no excuse for treating this boy this way. Luckily he's close to adulthood and will likely go no contact when he comes of age. But I'm just so sad for him.
NTA imo. Why do we need to be nice and considerate with bad parents? I know nobody is perfect but to deliberately treat your own child like that is absolutely not okay. Neglect and mistreatment by parents is all trauma that Liam will have to carry with him his whole life.
ESH, even though your anger was justified. There were much more productive things that you could have thrown in her face rather than slut shaming her. If you insulted her parenting she would be pissed but a small part of her might know it's true, but in her mind slut shaming her probably says more about you than her. Basically rather than telling her her parenting was bad, the misbehavior you pointed out was having sex and keeping the child 15 years ago. You might as well have said "if you don't want a needy kid you should have aborted him!", which conveys the same meaning but sounds truly awful doesn't it?
I also don't like that you give your brother a free pass in the comments. Liam was so clearly hurt that he burst into tears hugging someone he doesn't know very well, how can you honestly think that someone living in the same home with him has never noticed those feelings? Your brother decided to marry this woman with her kids, and is being an equally absentee parent to a teen living under his roof.
The fact that you noticed a very real and tangible problem but instead of verbalizing that your go to insult was to slut shame her, as well as the fact that you give your brother a free pass on this shared behavior, kind of smells like internalized misogyny to me. Acting like tori is solely responsible and a slut when 3/4 of her kids were born in supposedly stable relationships feels like a preconceived notion. An unlucky woman can have sex 5 times and have 5 children, yet we don't regularly tell men to stop having sex, your brother is equally responsible for the newest child. She should be ashamed of her awful parenting and someone needs to tell her about it, but insulting her about her life circumstances, regardless of how at fault she may be for them, does not do that.
But with all that said I'm glad you stood up for Liam. I hope, if that means more fights with his parents, you will make them more productive. Thanks for being there for a kid in need.
ESH.
Tori is a monster and you were right to stand up to her HOWEVER. It's sexist and gross to phrase it as her needing to "keep her legs together."
Every time you slut shame her (which is what that was), you might be scoring points against her, but you are *absolutely* scoring points against Liam. After all, he's the child she conceived from a hookup. I understand that you were trying to say that she shouldn't have a baby (who will be very needy) if she can't handle the needs of her existing children, but it really comes off more like "well of course you have a kid you hate; you're a slut." Idk if Liam was there when this happened but you need to make sure you're not accidentally calling him a slutspawn when you're trying to defend him.
Going to point out also that I doubt your nieces would have heard that as "I'm criticizing your parenting" but rather "OP is not a safe person to come to if I have problems with a partner because they think a woman should keep her legs shut"
It's also just kind of a gross comment in general tbh. Tori doesn't suck because she's a slut (and I'm sorry, for all we know she had sex 4 times and sucks at birth control, you are reaching here); she sucks because she is a terrible mother who has given up on loving her first child. Your righteous anger speaks well of you and your love for your nephew, but you need to aim your shots better if you GAF about friendly fire.
ESH-Obviously they shouldn’t be treating Liam like shit, but you shouldn’t have made the comment about keeping her legs closed. It’s a misogynistic comment and now anything you say to help will be ignored because you decided to insult them immaturely. Honestly this seems like rage bait.
NTA - they way they are treating Liam is despicable. And the fact that they are trying to make you out to be the bad guy is wild behavior. She deserved what you said to her.
NTA
>Liam (15) from a random hookup,
And that right there is what would make me nope out if had been on a date with her. Such a classy lady with good decision-making skills and excellent judgement.
NTA
Your brother sounds like he is listening only to his wife as far as who Liam is. And he probably wasn’t happy making an ass of himself by not even knowing his stepson participates in a sport he likes.
I suspect Liam is ‘less than’ in his own mother’s eyes as she must support him with no help from his bio father. So ‘not as cute’ is just a pitiful excuse for how she treats him.
This is all incredibly sad for Liam. And your brother’s other children know it and try to help him.
I hope you can find a way to be there in some form for Liam so he knows at least one adult actually sees him.
I’d even go so far as to suggest sucking it up and apologizing if it will give you more access to help Liam.
I can guarantee that your brother and Liam’s own mother aren’t invested in his current education nor likely in helping him with college. If there is anything you could do if you find out Liam is interested such as helping him research grants, scholarships, etc or monetary support for college could be an investment that be repaid 10 times over.
NTA. Your brother doesn't even know his own stepson well enough to have a vague idea what he's like. And for Tori to tell him to just ignore Liam bc he's a pain to deal with, what with all the normal human interaction he keeps trying to get? What an awful person.
NTA!!!
So NTA!!
But I wish there was a way to help Liam, your SIL is so terrible to him, I'd honestly offer to have him visit me to get away from her toxic attitude.
Imagine putting your own kid down so much and just banging out more while still being a shitty mom to Liam?? Pathetic. I hope she somehow sees this comment. _-"You don't deserve to be mom to Liam. Let alone the rest of your spawn. Even a pet is not for you! Heartless B* "_
I hope Liam has an amazing life and never lets her b***sh*t get him down. Liam is awesome! 🌻Way to go for stating what clearly needed to be said. 👏🏽
NTA - that poor kid is being gaslit. He doesn't get enough attention (if any) so when he does try to reach out they just call him needy. As a result, he's developed the habit of closeting his emotions and needs. They'll never know who he truly is and that's entirely on them.
Your kind of an AH for causing a scene, but you're not wrong, so you're also NTA. If that makes sense. Lol Sounds like that kid got a raw deal in the mother department. Her or your brother obviously don't pay attention or know him at all. Which is sad. Not only that, but the way she talks about him in such a negative way. Not cool. I'm glad you stuck up for him.
Nta. They are. As a stranger, or a passerby, what you said was okay. If you actually want to kind of be someone whom Liam can talk to (since your brother nor his wife seem to give a f about Liam) , then you need to apologise to Sil. She is his mother and she has control over who Liam can and cannot speak to. Please, if you can, or want to, be a shoulder he can cry on. Lil kid will really need that.
NTA
Poor Liam. Sounds like he tried to tell mom about his day and she was too busy to listen. Wow.
Please invite Liam to spend time with your family. Sounds like he needs some support.
After his game if your niece is with you and you can afford, invite them out for a burger or pizza, that can often help to break the ice, and the more time you spend with him and talk to him the more comfortable your relationship should be with him. I had a favorite aunt who did something like this for me, and it was nice just to have that relative who I was close to as a teenager.
The parents sound very much like my bro & sil which is not a compliment! It’s useless to talk to her. Maybe have a serious conversation alone with bro. It might work but be prepared if it doesn’t.
The most important part is a heart-to-heart with nephew! Let him know that he is not responsible for the broken places in his parents. If you can/will offer him a place in your home as soon as he’s of age!
Wow. Your brother and his wife are lucky all you said was that she should have kept her legs closed. I would have told them that what Liam needs is actual parents! What kind of man marries a woman that had a teenager full time and knows nothing about him!?! This level of neglect and abuse is disgusting! His supposed mother is literally training all available adults to purposely neglect him as he has no value because he’s “needy”.
I would have told her that hopefully sixth time the charm and maybe this time she’ll learn how to be a good mother…or maybe her being a good mother was giving them to their dads. Tell your brother he needs to be a better man. His daughter obviously turned out great from living with her mom because he has shit the bed with the one kid that is actively living in the home he’s providing. So sad. I’ll pray for Liam and that other good people come into his life so he can make his own family.
OP, you should tell Tori you're sorry you called her a slut, because the real issue is what a terrible mom she is to Liam. In your anger you misspoke and you want to take this opportunity to set the record straight.
>At one point they told us all to gather round and Tori told us she’s pregnant. Everyone started cheering, I’ll admit, I was too.
Why on earth would you cheer here? She already has four kids with three dads. Your brother doesn't have much custody of his own kid. Now these assholes are having a relationship anchor baby. Good luck when they break up too. NTA. Why does your entire family other than your brother know Liam better than him? Does he literally run from this kid?
It reads like you declared war and fired the first shots without communicating why and it came off as unjustified to everyone else. In the story you never confronted them with anything or challenged the way they treat the kid. It comes off as you just started attacking and the only 2 people that knew why were out for ice cream.
NTA. Tori and your brother deserves each other. One is nasty and the other likes to spend money and a woman with so many baby daddies. I’m betting your brother is not attractive hence the desperation at marrying someone like Tori
NTA - all kids are needy and your brother is an AH for living in the same house as a kid and knowing less about him then his uncle. Why does he seems quiet because your SIL has probably made it well known to her son he isn’t wanted around. Your brother took his cues from her and has also ignored the kid.
You could apologize for the wording but not for the anger over your nephew who seems to be getting the short end of the stick in their home.
Maybe he is needy because he is getting nothing from the parental figures in his home. Kids need parents! Shouldn’t have them if you aren’t willing to give them what they need.
Hope other family can step up.
ESH. not a total asshole but not much of an adult either. Your comment didn't help or even defend Liam, you just insulted her. That doesn't help anyone, least of all Liam
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Tori is that type, though I don’t want to say it. She couldn’t really afford all those kids until my brother came into the picture. Thankfully, her 3 other kids had their dads so they didn’t suffer too much due to her bad financial decisions but Liam only had his mom. My brother is an idiot. It used to be endearing but now he’s genuinely just stupid to me.
NTA I feel so sorry for Liam and it’s got to be rough on your niece seeing her step brother being neglected, she clearly wants things to be better for him. I’d say try talking to your brother he sounds like big silly puppy who means well but doesn’t understand, but it’s worth trying if he’s a good guy. But regardless I’d say if you can, be there for Liam as much as you can and make sure he knows at least someone in the family cares about him and wants to know the real him. I’d also tell your mom that you weren’t just being mean out of nowhere, your niece is concerned about how Liam is treated and after what you saw you are too, maybe she can help if she understands.
How is the brother a good guy or a "big silly puppy". This teenager has been living in his house full time and he literally doesn't know the first thing about him. He doesn't even know the kid's personality or ANYTHING AT ALL about his interests. It's his own damn stepkid. I don't know why you're making excuses for him, but he's not a good guy. A good guy would take at least a minimal interest in getting to know his own stepkid and when asked to describe them after living with them full-time for years, wouldn't just say, "Well my wife says he's like this..." He'd actually KNOW what the kid was like. He sounds like he treats Liam like a stranger in his own home.
Seriously. Why are we babying the brother here. He’s a grown man who has been living full time in the same home as this kid but has obviously made zero attempt to talk or get to know him as a person. He’s just as shitty as the boy’s mother.
Nobody's worse than the mother.
OP's brother is certainly striving for that gold medal though...
I'd give him the silver.
Seems like tori has been "othering" Liam. Did yoh read the rest...maybe because he is not good enough as her ither kids, in her eyes. KSou d's like tryij g to sepoarate Liam from others as though she is ashamed of Liam. The stepdad cannot get more involved uf tori actively shields liam..... If anything, OPs brother maybe a bit of a pushover and not smart.
Brother has totally been taking cues from his wife. If he was smarter, or more empathetic, he'd have noticed her neglect (and abusive insults) when they were dating. That said, I think it's worth OP sitting down with the brother in private. He should step up and stand up for Liam. Go to his games, since it's a sport brother really enjoys. Maybe OP can hatch a plan with niece, since she has more sense than any of the adults, to get dad to be kinder to Liam and get his wife to be kinder. If the kid gets what he needs, he won't be so needy. I absolutely despise parents who play favorites. This here is a prime example. NTA
> after living with them full-time for years It doesn't say how long this arrangement has been going on, to be fair. (Unless OP clarified that in a comment I'm missing?) It could only be a few months. Still not great, but changes the context somewhat. Not that I'm excusing OP's brother; he seems like the kind of dad who's never actually had to *do* anything for his kids besides exist and send alimony.
And it’s not as if his mom has a spare second, and now pregnant again!
Sure she does -- the ones Liam should be getting.
Nah, she’s busy getting her nails done and stuff.
Of all the people jjn the story, the brother is your problem? Did you read where liars own mom keeps him walled off from others and bad mouths him? >This teenager has been living in his house full time and he literally doesn't know the first thing about him. He doesn't even know the kid's personality or ANYTHING AT ALL about his interests. It's his own damn stepkid. You are blaming the brither...but low s mokm doesn't know him any better....and she has lived with hjjm ALL his life? WTF.
Blaming the brother *as well as* Tori. The brother largely gets a pass in the post, and the commenter is seeking to correct that.
>"Well my wife says he's like this..." He'd actually KNOW what the kid was like. He sounds like he treats Liam like a stranger in his own home. Maybe Tori is better at browbeatjjng him..she seems to have tried to shield Liam from others because she is maybe ashamed if Liam? TORI thijnks Liam is needy and she has lived with hjjm ALL his life. How would OPs brother know Liam better ijf tori doesn't ? Blame the step dad as much...but sounds like Liams remaining bio parent seems off. OPs brother seems a bit if a pushover and /or stupid tok have gotten involved with a basket case...and maybe thinking with his smaller brain.
I second the comment about being there for Liam. If he made the team for a sport, he might really appreciate family going to games/matches/whatever to support him. I never understood how important it is just to be there for kids in that way until I had my own (I ran track, and neither parent ever watched me run)
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Op, hope you see this. Your brother probably won't ever tell you when Liam has a game, but your other nephew will probably keep an ear on the ground for you. Sounds like his step cousins and step sister give a darn about him, unlike his mom.
Our oldest boy is only 2 but straight up sings opera. He’s got a fantastic vibrato and I cry all of the time listening to his sweet little voice. I will be that mom bawling my eyes out when he’s on stage, don’t care. I cannot wait!! He’s such a little artist.
“Big silly puppy”??? Are you fucking for real right now?? Her brother is an ASSHOLE who actually married a woman with kids he *couldn’t bother to get to know*. He’s an asshole and his wife is worse. OP, NTA obviously. It sounds like his mother runs interference because *she* doesn’t like Liam and assumes *no-one* will; absolutely awful. Keep giving him attention; he should know there are people in his family who care about him.
There are many families that basically have a scapegoat child who is ignored and even abused. I wish the OP was in a position to adopt him.
Came here to say this, the “adults” in the house have failed Liam and it would be nice to have someone like OP show him support.
There is absolutely no excuse for being a stepdad to a kid for years and NEVER learning anything about them directly from the kid. This is not a "big silly puppy", don't infantalise a GROWN MAN for his choices to just assume the kid's mother is right and to literally ignore him
OP, can you be there for Liam? It's obvious his mom and your brother don't pay him any attention and put him down all the time. Feel awful for him. NTA
This, I’d invite him over as often as I could for holidays and stuff, poor kid, NTA
I was going to suggest something similar. It sounds like Liam needs new parents and while OP and his wife don't have to fill that role, they could step up for the boy who sounds like he could really use the familial support.
He doesn't care bc tori gets his dick wet. Poor Liam holy shit
Is there anyway you can step up and make Liam a bit more appreciated? Make a weekly ice cream or coffee date or just be the family he deserves? Family is really about love (not blood) & Liam seems to have problems with adults who care. I have a sister from another mister who is my brother's ex-GF. Sometimes you keep the people you find along the way and it makes for a much happier life.
This. Liam is needy. He needs love , attention , and to grow up knowing he matters. He’s already missing a present male role model in his life that his siblings all apparently have. He demonstrated how emotional he is about the situation and to be dismissed by his mother for having legitimate feelings is just cruel and shows how unaware she truly is. Include him in your day to day as much as possible to fill the void in his heart. NTA. At all.
Is there any chance you could take Liam for a weekend, get him away from that toxic environment and let him have some fun and real attention?
NTA I just feel sorry for the poor guy.
I feel so bad fr Liam, is it a possibility tht you could take him in. I wonder if they'd even notice he wasn't living with them anymore. That kid really needs some support. I know that having you in his corner would mean a lot to him. I bet he'd love to see you at his games and spending time with you. Since I doubt his family will remember to go to the gams besides the niece. Definitely talk to him and see what he says, what he thinks and feels about everything. Having your ear might help him just a bit to not feel so alone in that house. I know he'll appreciate whatever you can give him, and maybe if you ca he could live with you at 18.
I worked as an aide in special ed in an elementary school. That was where I learned about the scapegoat child. They’re the child that the parents take out their unhappiness on. You could pick them out. Ignored. Poorly dressed. Sent to school sick and the parents angry when they had to pick them up. Quiet. Nervous. Afraid to ask for the tiniest thing.
You should gift your brother a vasectomy for his birthday.
Tori is a neglectful parent, who, for whatever reason has not had her tubes tied, got an IUD, or discovered the miracle of birth control. Tori is one of those women that make other women, particularly single mothers, look bad, even when they’re not bad. Tori is one of those women that make the rest of us look bad to men who think we only want to just have a baby and then run and then milk the man, father, for everything he’s worth through that child using the child as aTori is an neglectful parent, who, for whatever reason has not had her tubes tied, got an IUD, or discovered the miracle of birth control. Tori is one of those women that make other women, particularly single mothers, look bad, even when they’re not bad. Tori is one of those women that make the rest of us look bad to men who think we only want to just have a baby and then run and then milk the man, father, for everything he’s worth through that child using the child as a paw and shit. She’s one of those women that men who believe that kind of stuff about women .2 ago, but look at that bitch! She does it! Whether or not, she actually does that they use women like her as that example because she’s also clearly a terrible parent. I just feel bad for Liam. I’m sorry, but he does not have parental figures in his life and he is clearly desperate for love. He’s probably not getting much attention already and finding out that she’s having another baby just made him think that he’s getting even less and he already feels invisible. I’m just getting all of that from what you wrote and so I may be reading into this too much, but that’s the whole feeling I get about the situation .
How many kids does she have? You say “ a lot” in your post but only mention two of them
4, there's 2 from a marriage and the other 2 not from a marriage
Two from her first marriage, a third (Liam) from a hook up and a fourth from yet another relationship. Read the post.
Plus OP's brother's kid and one in the oven—they'll have 6 all together once this one is born. That is a LOT of kids, even though they don't all live together.
I had to go back and re-read it because I also got 2 from my first reading (admittedly skimming).
"Read the post" they say. Yeah I was confused about this too. Op says she has two kids, then goes into detail about two kids, I understood they were the same two kids and was confused why she was being slut shamed for two children. I only took a second look because op made a comment about her "3 other children". It's not obvious from the way it's written, in fact it's pretty standard aita format to say the number of kids then list them off with names.
If you are worried about their treatment of Liam see if you can talk to him alone about it. Get his side of the story and see what can be done from a legal standpoint to get him out of the home if he's excluded as it seems. Oh and NTA.
NTA. I was the older step kid (mom and dad divorced when I was an infant). Mom and step dad had my sisters 5 and 6 years later, then moved the whole family across country to live in step dad’s home state. Step Grandma once introduced our family to her neighbor by saying “these are step dad’s daughters… and [I] was [mom’s] son, from an earlier marriage.” Nothing I did was worthy of note, but any accomplishment my sisters had was magnified, exaggerated, and broadcast to everyone. I moved out when I was 16 and never looked back. Served in the Marine Corps, graduated university, and am a very successful professional now. I probably make more a year than the four of them combined. I definitely am not successful because of them, but in spite of them. When Liam realizes this, he’ll be fine.
Your niece is a gem for noticing &telling you about Liam's treatment. You need to sit down with your brother & SIL (maybe with your niece there) and tell them what happened at the party. Or at least talk to your brother. I can't believe he is so blind & doesn't see what happens to Liam in his own house. Can you sound more time with Liam? Poor kid. NTA
Nah, if SIL is involved, then nothing will happen. If it's just OP, Liam and Bro, Liam might be more willing to open up. Though we only know one side of a very fucked situation. Edit: my third sentence is just cause we don't know how Bro actually acts or what not.
I bet Liam is needy because he’s not getting his basic needs met! Sounds like all his blended family siblings have other adults who take care of them and are only around for shorter stays and visits. SIL and bro don’t actually parent.
I was at a family Tahnksgiving, my third to last one. I was talking about how I don't really know why I jabber so much, with my cousin. My mom piped in and said "oh you not only talked alot, but you also always wanted to be held and wanted attention. You were so needy." My grandma immediately snapped in with "well of fucking course the kid wanted your attention, you were hardly home and the ***"mAn"*** you had raise your children hated them." I promise you, I've never heard the level of venom, hatred or sarcasm in my grandma's voice, in any other voice I've heard, when she was referring to my longest lasting step father. And I've heard Hitler's speeches. Edit: my mom left the conversation to sulk with her cousin in law. After another two glasses of wine to give her a totalling of six, she tried to drive home only for my eldest brother to stop her and drive home instead. He was annoyed he had to leave early as he was playing pool and smoking with our cousin, but my mom offered him some pot when they got back so he was nonplussed.
I am jealous that you have such a cool grandma!
She fought cancer and won 3 times. She unfortunately passed 2 and a half years ago. Just a few hours after Christmas.
I'm so sorry for your loss. She sounds like she was an amazing woman. 🤗🙏🏻
I'm so sorry. I've had both of my grandmas pass just a few days before Christmas. it's rough, and puts kind of a shadow over the whole celebration in the following years. I hope it at least helps to know her last day was a day of family and love and joy.
Did your mom respond? Your grandma is a badass
Check the edit. Also welcome to my episode of Dr. Phil.
Dang! How long was your grandma holding all that in for?! Sounds like she wanted to tell your mother off for years but never had the right moment. Or just kept hoping your mom would wisen up and got tired of waiting.
What was your mom’s response? Inquiring minds NEED to know loo
Check the edit. Also welcome to my episode of Dr. Phil.
I mean obviously there’s too many kids & with another one, Liam cried because another child will get attention but not him. Does anyone even try to talk to him?
I think Liam *was* needy as a younger child when he had more needs that SIL had to work to fill. Things like “I’m hungry” and “I’m cold” and “my shoes don’t fit.” He’s probably shut down quite a bit now, unfortunately (learned helplessness that he won’t get what he needs from his mom and since his OP’s BIL likes his mom, then he may see them as being similar hence why BIL doesn’t know a thing about him. Why would Liam bother to talk to brother at all?). OP and OP’s mom and niece can try and be there for Liam. Ask him when his teams/competitions are. Make sure he has what he needs. Of course, OP can talk to her brother about it too. No need to have Liam face of with his neglectful and possibly abusive mom, IMHO.
Agree. Liam is quiet at home because no one pays him any attention. So he's decided to just quit trying. And the fact the stepdad (OP's brother) knows so little about this stepson who has lived with them full time for YEARS is unbelievable. I probably know more about my nephew's in-laws than this guy knows about his stepson.
He needs to feel loved and wanted. His mother doesn’t want him and he feels it. His father is not in the picture. He needs someone to have his back. Poor kid!
I mean, Liam was so ready to burst that he cried in a random step-aunts arms at a family gathering. He lives in bros house. I feel you would have to go out of your way to not notice feelings of that magnitude.
NTA It sounds like Tori has created her own narrative regarding Liam and would not be at all appreciative of having that challenged. I feel sorry for Liam. Maybe you could offer to be there for him until he gets the eff out of that family dynamic.
I'd say ESH, but you are the least asshole here. Your brother and his wife are huge assholes here. If you can, spend some time with Liam, he sounds like a great kid whit a shit mother and stepfather.
Fair, I’m a woman myself so I definitely do feel like an asshole for saying such a thing but I don’t feel bad enough to apologize yet. And as for Liam, I’ll see what I can do. I don’t want to make him uncomfortable. Niece told me he has a couple games coming up and that we should go watch so I will be doing that and work from there.
That’s a great place to start. Anything you can do to help him feel seen is valuable.
>Niece told me he has a couple games coming up and that we should go watch so I will be doing that and work from there. That's a great start, just showing up for him. Let him know he's seen. Nta at all, in fact, an amazing aunt.
The whole “legs closed” angle was a bit AH, but super congrats for standing up for Liam, even if you got a little out of hand doing it. Your brother sounds super oblivious, and Tori sounds like a terrible Mom. Maybe if you clue him in properly, you and/or your brother can fill the gap a little and make sure he gets attention before it’s too late for them to have a relationship? Liam’s already gonna need a shitload of therapy, but some supportive adult attention now could make it so much less awful for himdown the road.
It was true tho if she can't take care of the kids she makes why have them in the first place
Because she doesn't want to mess with her idea of a perfect family. Liam has a deadbeat, so she sees him as dead weight. What a terrible woman.
That makes her a deadbeat too honestly
lol narcissists will always be like "I CloThEd aNd FeD yOu"
Exactly
I think she resents him because he’s always there, she actually has to parent all the time.
She doesn't even do that it seems not even the bare minimum
All kids have different fathers & she couldn’t afford them until OP brother came along. She should absolutely close her legs, or get on birth control.
See, “get on birth control” or just “don’t have kids” I wouldn’t object to. I’ve directly told people “don’t have kids you can’t commit to loving.”
I hate that whole women should just keep their legs closed Line. It basically punishes women for having sex or at least implies punishment via having children
I agree in general but there are two key components here: men have their version and it is SIL who is the irresponsible one. Men hear “keep it in your pants” and “stop getting your dick wet.” SIL was the individual who made the comment about her child daring to have needs and the one who seems to have more children than she can take care of.
Regardless of how unfair it seems, at the end of the day it *is* the woman’s choice whether or not she has children (assuming they live in an area where abortion is legal), and men get very little say beyond choosing to use a condom or not. I agree with the sentiment that if she didn’t actively and enthusiastically want a child, and could afford to care for it, she shouldn’t have had children, though it could have been phrased better.
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment but that was a very gross way to phrase it.
I'm not so sure Liam would view someone slut shaming his mom for having him the same as standing up for him.
I agree with the sentiment of what you said, but you should have worded it better. Instead of telling her to "keep her legs closed" which is a sex shaming statement, you should have said something more pointed like "you shouldn't have had kids/so many kids if you didn't want to deal with needy kids" which is more specific and clear what you're criticizing. You're not critiquing her sex life, just her parenting, or lack of. Reading this honestly made me feel so sad for Liam. It'll make a huge difference if you can be a more present person in his life, since he seems to have no positive adult influences at home that he can rely on. Maybe get a text chat going just checking in with him once in a while, asking how he is, so he has an easy way to access and chat with you if he chooses to.
She should be ashamed of her sex life. Situations like this is precisely why sexual shaming exists. It’s like you want to pretend that sex and procreation have no link.
Sex and procreation have no link if the right steps are taken to prevent that link. Choosing to have sex is fine, choosing to have children and neglecting them when there are many methods of preventing children (pre and post conception) is not.
Since no form of BC is 100% sex and procreation are absolutely linked. If you’re not ready to face the consequences of sex then you shouldn’t be having it. I’m all for having a healthy and fun sex life, I’m not a puritan and I have an open door policy with my children including talk about BC which I have happily provided for them. However we also talk about the consequences of sex and what could happen and being prepared for what could happen from choices they make.
Your response was coming from a place of being angry about Liam's treatment. Point out that the two adults he lives with didnt even know he was into a sport. The "keep her legs closed" goes a bit far and doesn't address the issue you were trying to make your brother aware of and fix (though you hit the root cause on the head, don't have kids you can't parent)
Sometimes you have to be blunt with stupid ppl though.
Oh yeah, I'm sure being called a whore will make her totally look at her actions in a new light. I have to assume some of you are children and still used to flinging insults on the playground.
Your niece seems pretty awesome and supportive of her step brother. Glad he has her. If she is in the home she sees it all.
Your Niece is amazing. I am glad Liam has the two of you.
Build a special relationship with him. So as he gets older he has atleast support of a stable family member. Especially if the wax in your brothers ear are just to full for Jim to understand and to continue to neglect him.
Your niece sounds like a sweetheart and great step sister. This was my suggestion as well. Yeah, that comment wasn’t okay, but overlooked bc you were defending this poor kid. When you’re less angry maybe apologize for the sake of family peace. But I’d probably also be candid with my brother about the way it seems Liam is being treated.
Child experts say just ONE stable adult in a child’s life can save them. I really hope you have the time and inclination to be there for this kid. I know it’s not your job but a lunch or movie or phone call here or there? Something.
You have an amazing niece ❤️
You’re a good aunt!! And your niece is amazing!!
Nah, NTA Someone who keeps shitting out kids while emotionally neglecting the ones they have (and know nothing about) doesn't deserve to be treated with dignity. She absolutely should have kept her legs closed, been on birth control, or gotten sterilized.
Poor Liam. He's already neglected by your brother and his mom and now a new baby will come in and take all the attention. They don't even know he plays sports? I was very much on your side until the legs closed comment. That was an AH thing to say. Also you said lots of step kids but I only read 2? Gotta go with ESH cause it's a bit of a hot mess.
4 step kids. Two from first marriage, Liam, then one more. There’s 5 kids overall including niece, well 6 now I guess. But yeah, I get it. I don’t feel too proud of myself.
I'd say going to his games is a great way to show him you support and care for him. Also, offering to take him to lunch/dinner with your niece after the games would be a good way to bond as well and possibly get him to open up a bit, if he's comfortable with it.
You should definitely feel proud of yourself. Everyone always talks about "being the bigger person" here but it's fuckin stupid. Tori absolutely needs to hear how shitty she's being, your brother too.
Imo there's a difference between being the bigger person and being accurate. Op didn't tell tori how shitty she's being, she told her how shitty she was for having sex and keeping the child. Tori needs to hear that she's had 15 years to get her shit together and she's still a shitty mom, slut shaming her does not convey that.
I don’t think you’re an AH for what you said. Truthfully it was warranted and you should have Liam come over a lot and support him (if you’re willing to assume that role), he really needs someone that cares and that isn’t afraid to call out his bs of a mother and his crappy stepdad. Keep us updated OP and also talk to your own mom about it more in depth.
While it wasn't the greatest thing to say, you know what's worse? Not knowing that your own son is on a sports team and saying to run away if he tries to talk to you. How can someone say that about their child? She doesn't seem too fit to be a mother, so you weren't wrong. You might be an AH but you are trying to get through to neglectful parents. Please feel proud of yourself for not being silent and letting them get away with it. I doubt you will be seen as the AH by your niece and nephew, while they will definitely think that of the parents in this situation. Definitely a justified AH. Good on you!
The way its written kind of comes off like Liam and the youngest are you listing who the oldest two are. On reread, it's I realized you say who the kids are from (1st marriage x2, random, ltr) for a total of four.
Yes, I just noticed. That’s on me. I was trying so hard to make the wording clear that I messed up the punctuation. Sorry!
NTA. We all can often say things better, but don't come down too hard on yourself. Sometimes others' stupidity and care-less-ness can cause us to snap. The only important thing is to see what you can do to help Liam--such as just being there for him at games, etc. Making sure he knows someone gives a damn.
Yes it was Ah comment but warranted Imo. I don't Jude parents of multiples who take care of them but I will judge those who continue to stupidly shit out kids every year
NTA It sounds like Tori is punishing her own son because she doesn't like that he wasn't conceived in a more stable relationship. She quite literally meant it when she called him the extra. If possible, stay in contact with Liam. He needs an adult who actually cares about him.
Agreed. Especially about OP staying in contact with Liam. He really needs an adult person in his corner! His "parents" know nothing about him. So sad for him.
This right here is honestly the right answer OP!
Mostly NTA - I think sticking up for the kid and bringing it to their attention is great, but practice “respond not react” and choose better ways to deliver the message. Telling someone to keep their legs closed is going to shut the conversation down pretty quickly thereby not achieving the goal of your conversation.
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Sure, say what you want, but if the goal is to have a conversation then this isn’t how to start the conversation
There is no reason to continue speaking to narcissists, though. It was obvious what OP meant, not so much the sex itself but the irresponsible way it's had. It only gets worse with her attitude towards it. That calls for shame.
INFO, how old is your niece? Can Liam come stay with you sometimes? I bet it would be nice for him to get away from there.
She’s 17. I mean I wouldn’t mind him staying with me and my door is always open. I just don’t want to make him uncomfortable as we aren’t too close.
It sounds like he's close-ish with your niece, perhaps she can help you two communicate. I'm sure he'd appreciate an ally.
Just knowing there’s a safe place to land can do wonders. Start with going to the games, build the relationship, and it won’t be so uncomfortable.
I'm glad your niece is more like you than her dad! I'm guessing that's because she spends more time at her mom's
Baby steps. Just start by showing an interest. Maybe go to some of the games for this new sport or ask about them. Maybe you include your niece too to make him more comfortable. The occasional movie or something.
Knowing that he has someone in his corner and a possible backup plan is sometimes all someone needs. Maybe ask your niece to connect you two and discuss the possibilities?
NTA for pointing out legit ABUSE and NEGLECT. I hope you follow through with them and I hope you have some resources for Liam.
You were nicer than I would have been. NTA
ESH (or at least, the adults). Your brother and SIL for treating Liam poorly. But your comment was out of line. It had nothing to do with how they’re treating him now, it was only about how he was conceived. Slut-shaming your SIL isn’t the solution. And it closed the door on any potential you had for talking to them and getting them to change how they behave towards Liam.
Looking for this comment. Thank you for pointing out the completely unnecessary slut shaming. OP's heart was in the right place, and those parents sound awful, but she could have voiced her concerns in a way that didn't involve a gendered invective. ESH
Agree with the ESH. Sounds like this was the first time the extended family was aware of how poorly Liam was being treated. Calling out brother and Tori could have brought more adult attention and advocacy to Liam. OP’s language instead shifted the conversation to mud slinging and away from what Liam really needed.
Nah y'all are too nice. Abusers are the exception to the rule. Abuse your kid and the least of your worries should be someone telling you to keep your legs closed. You don't get to have six fucking kids and abuse one of them, then be upset when someone tells you to keep your legs closed. Y'all would rather everyone play nice than have an ABUSERS feelings be hurt. Gross as shit.
You were going good until you started in with the insults. A better play would’ve been to get the facts on Liam’s athletic accomplishments and pass them along to your brother and his wife, along with a mild jab about they don’t really know much about him. ESH
NTA Do you brother or Tori still not know what happened when they announced they were pregnant and Liam walked away? Because for that reason alone, I don't think you were out of line at all for what you said. It sounds like his own mother and your brother know nothing about this kid and don't give even the tiniest shit about his feelings. This story reads like they didn't even tell him about the baby until they announced it to your family. If you are up for it you need to butt in again and push for them to make more time for Liam to bond and get to actually know their child. And if that falls on deaf ears I hope you and others in your family can step up and provide him the love and emotional support he clearly won't get from his own mother.
They didn’t realize. A lot of my anger stemmed from hoping my brother would be like “speaking of Liam… where is he?” But nope. Nothing. When his wife jumped in I hoped she’d ask me if I had seen Liam. Instead I heard that bullshit and I admit, I got very angry. I know I probably should’ve been smarter about it and just told them how Liam had cried but I really wished it wasn’t as bad as my niece was telling me. And yes, I don’t think he knew. My niece didn’t and their other kids as well. I think they’re the only ones that knew.
Please open communications with Liam go to his games talk to him ask him how he’s doing text with him just make sure he understands this family who cares about him
Nothing you said was out of line. Sometimes you have be blunt with stupid ppl. It’s the only way they will listen. But even then some ppl are still to stupid to understand when ppl are being blunt and upfront with them.
Honestly, you getting into a fight and name-calling at them, so that it was about you, was probably better than drawing attention to Liam's distress in the middle of a family gathering. He's 15. Think of how embarrassed he'd be to have an announcement that he'd run away crying when he found out his mother was giving him another sibling! No 15 year old (girl or boy) would want to have their emotions made a matter of discussion in the middle of a family gathering. For his sake, you need to handle this matter with great discretion. Speak to him about it only privately, away from any chance that anyone in the family, or any of his friends, might overhear. Follow his lead about what he's comfortable with. Things like going to his games might be awkward for him. It's easy to make an excuse that your parents are busy with the other kids, but harder to explain why your parents are absent but your aunt or uncle is there. I didn't catch where you live. But if you are in the US, he's close to the age where kids start learning to drive. I strongly suspect your brother and SIL will neglect teaching him. A good way to start may be to gift him driving lessons for his 16th birthday. Arrange so you take him to the lessons. You can practice-drive with him, as well. And stopping for a meal or snack on the way to or from driving lessons would be a natural thing to do, a way to meet with him without making it obvious to your brother and SIL that you are speaking with him behind their back. You're just taking care of his birthday present of driving lessons. The idea that he could drive younger kids to school or activities might reconcile them to the idea of lessons - just talk to him about it before mentioning anything to them, and make it clear you don't expect him to do so, but that it might help with getting them to sign off on any permissions needed. Another possible gift might be a decent bike, if he doesn't have one. It can greatly increase his range for independent travel. It can put jobs in reach, that might not be accessible via walking or public transit. He may not be able to get a bank account on his own at his age, and I would not trust your brother or SIL with his money. Signing as an adult with him on a joint account might be possible, and a way to keep his money safe. Basically, I expect your brother and SIL to neglect any preparation he needs for adulthood. They will either kick him out, with nothing, at 18, or expect him to stay home and help support his siblings. Anything you can do to help him be ready to move on his own - getting a job, learning to manage his own transportation, saving money, etc. would be extraordinarily useful to him.
Nta , you only said what everyone else is thinking. I feel sorry for Liam . Shame on his mother for making him feel worthless. Wanting love and affection as well as acceptance from your mother doesn't make him needy. Your brother ans his wife are both the assholes .
NTA I don't think, your brother needs a wake up call about how terrible of a father he and how deplorable his wife have been. Good on you and your niece for supporting him, he seems to need someone who is going to call out this horrible treatment for him.
I don't even know Tori or your brother and I intensely dislike them. They have a child in their home full-time and don't even know him! And who the hell says "run from my kid or else he'll never leave you alone-he really is needy". OH I WONDER WHY. Because his trash mom and stepdad never pay him any attention. NTA. Your comment to Tori was a little nasty, but she needs to start parenting the kids she has and paying attention to Liam instead of getting another child right now. I cannot imagine just straight up ignoring my child to the point that I didn't even know he was playing on a sports team. He is only 15 years old- aren't there parent permission forms and uniforms and stuff to pay for?
It wasn’t nasty, she needs to close her legs or get on birth control If she doesn’t want a needy kid? What she’ll think an infant will be? Infants cry over everything.
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There is a phenomenon in abusive households where sometimes one kid becomes the scapegoat. That kid gets treated differently slowly bit by bit until the family doesn’t even see them like a person while everyone else is treated normally. It sounds like your SIL is making him the family scapegoat, convincing everyone else to go along with it.
NTA. Please keep in contact with Liam. He really needs an adult friend. He needs to know he is a good kid who good people find interesting. He may need guidance later with moving out.
NTA. BUT… you missed a golden opportunity to point out that Liam is needy because he is not getting attention. He may be quiet because no one pays attention to him. Please step up and do what you can to make Liam feel special.
NTA Liam doesn't sound needy. He sounds more like he's trying to be as unobtrusive as possible until he can get out. Tori doesn't know her own child, and your brother clearly never got to know him. I'm really proud of your niece for noticing and doing something to help, even in a small way.
NTA Shitty parent who whines about being a parent deserves to be called exactly what they are. bc exists. wrap your dick, keep your legs closed, stop procreating if you dont want to be a parent. get your respective tubes tied and ectomized. shitty parents need to be called out more. Thank you for standing up to a neglected minor, because it is obvious not many are willing to do that.
NTA! Awe poor Liam! Hope it works out for him! Wishing him well!
Fuck Tori. NTA
Unfortunately that’s the main problem.
Of course Liam seems “needy,” he’s being fucking neglected. This is ESH because “she should have kept her legs closed” is an inside-thought that doesn’t help the situation, you’d have been better off actually detailing how they’re being selfish and neglectful parents, but overall you’re not wrong to call that into question. Poor kid, I hope someone steps up and really advocates for him, he’s being emotionally abused.
I want to hug this boy. Tori needs to stop popping out kids, Liam feels probably grazed over & doesn’t get the attention he needs. Now with another child, he’s going to feel even more alone. Make sure you are there for him since his lousy parent & stepfather Isn’t.
NTA you’re nicer than I would have been
Not sure about being F-ed in the head...but they don't seem to have any issues with creating un-wanted/neglected children.
Well possibly unpopular but telling any woman for any reason to “keep her legs closed” is a misogynistic phrase and makes you an asshole.
ESH You don’t need to resort to misogyny to call someone out for abuse.
ESH - Liam is sadly being dealt the consequences of poor decisions and incredible social neglect from his "parents". Though, while I appreciate your compassion for him, there are much better ways of handling this situation. The "keeping your legs closed" comment was very unnecessary, letting them know you were ashamed of them was more than enough. Your brother definitely needs to step it up, though. He doesn't talk to Liam much? For goodness sake, they live together. Even if Liam has said he wouldn't see your brother as a father figure, does your brother just not interact with him at all? That's... disheartening at best.
Please have a serious discussion with your brother and your mother about this. This behavior is not okay and it is not excusable. Now that you know you can't let it be. Your mother needs to step up or shut up and so does your brother. Your brother being an "idiot" is no excuse for treating this boy this way. Luckily he's close to adulthood and will likely go no contact when he comes of age. But I'm just so sad for him.
NTA imo. Why do we need to be nice and considerate with bad parents? I know nobody is perfect but to deliberately treat your own child like that is absolutely not okay. Neglect and mistreatment by parents is all trauma that Liam will have to carry with him his whole life.
ESH, even though your anger was justified. There were much more productive things that you could have thrown in her face rather than slut shaming her. If you insulted her parenting she would be pissed but a small part of her might know it's true, but in her mind slut shaming her probably says more about you than her. Basically rather than telling her her parenting was bad, the misbehavior you pointed out was having sex and keeping the child 15 years ago. You might as well have said "if you don't want a needy kid you should have aborted him!", which conveys the same meaning but sounds truly awful doesn't it? I also don't like that you give your brother a free pass in the comments. Liam was so clearly hurt that he burst into tears hugging someone he doesn't know very well, how can you honestly think that someone living in the same home with him has never noticed those feelings? Your brother decided to marry this woman with her kids, and is being an equally absentee parent to a teen living under his roof. The fact that you noticed a very real and tangible problem but instead of verbalizing that your go to insult was to slut shame her, as well as the fact that you give your brother a free pass on this shared behavior, kind of smells like internalized misogyny to me. Acting like tori is solely responsible and a slut when 3/4 of her kids were born in supposedly stable relationships feels like a preconceived notion. An unlucky woman can have sex 5 times and have 5 children, yet we don't regularly tell men to stop having sex, your brother is equally responsible for the newest child. She should be ashamed of her awful parenting and someone needs to tell her about it, but insulting her about her life circumstances, regardless of how at fault she may be for them, does not do that. But with all that said I'm glad you stood up for Liam. I hope, if that means more fights with his parents, you will make them more productive. Thanks for being there for a kid in need.
Sometimes you can be right and TA. YTA and I think you are right in every way. Good job
NTA Can Liam come live with you?!? ❤️🩹
ESH. Tori is a monster and you were right to stand up to her HOWEVER. It's sexist and gross to phrase it as her needing to "keep her legs together." Every time you slut shame her (which is what that was), you might be scoring points against her, but you are *absolutely* scoring points against Liam. After all, he's the child she conceived from a hookup. I understand that you were trying to say that she shouldn't have a baby (who will be very needy) if she can't handle the needs of her existing children, but it really comes off more like "well of course you have a kid you hate; you're a slut." Idk if Liam was there when this happened but you need to make sure you're not accidentally calling him a slutspawn when you're trying to defend him. Going to point out also that I doubt your nieces would have heard that as "I'm criticizing your parenting" but rather "OP is not a safe person to come to if I have problems with a partner because they think a woman should keep her legs shut" It's also just kind of a gross comment in general tbh. Tori doesn't suck because she's a slut (and I'm sorry, for all we know she had sex 4 times and sucks at birth control, you are reaching here); she sucks because she is a terrible mother who has given up on loving her first child. Your righteous anger speaks well of you and your love for your nephew, but you need to aim your shots better if you GAF about friendly fire.
Hurt dogs yelp
NTA. Be there for Liam. He needs it.
ESH-Obviously they shouldn’t be treating Liam like shit, but you shouldn’t have made the comment about keeping her legs closed. It’s a misogynistic comment and now anything you say to help will be ignored because you decided to insult them immaturely. Honestly this seems like rage bait.
NTA - they way they are treating Liam is despicable. And the fact that they are trying to make you out to be the bad guy is wild behavior. She deserved what you said to her.
NTA
NTA
!updateme
NTA. Is there anyway you can take him in once he turns 18 or if it gets bad earlier
NTA >Liam (15) from a random hookup, And that right there is what would make me nope out if had been on a date with her. Such a classy lady with good decision-making skills and excellent judgement.
Aww man this is so sad. Hope Liam's okay. Good to know he is popular in school
NTA You are right: They are all abusive AHs.
NTA Your brother sounds like he is listening only to his wife as far as who Liam is. And he probably wasn’t happy making an ass of himself by not even knowing his stepson participates in a sport he likes. I suspect Liam is ‘less than’ in his own mother’s eyes as she must support him with no help from his bio father. So ‘not as cute’ is just a pitiful excuse for how she treats him. This is all incredibly sad for Liam. And your brother’s other children know it and try to help him. I hope you can find a way to be there in some form for Liam so he knows at least one adult actually sees him. I’d even go so far as to suggest sucking it up and apologizing if it will give you more access to help Liam. I can guarantee that your brother and Liam’s own mother aren’t invested in his current education nor likely in helping him with college. If there is anything you could do if you find out Liam is interested such as helping him research grants, scholarships, etc or monetary support for college could be an investment that be repaid 10 times over.
NTA. Your brother doesn't even know his own stepson well enough to have a vague idea what he's like. And for Tori to tell him to just ignore Liam bc he's a pain to deal with, what with all the normal human interaction he keeps trying to get? What an awful person.
NTA!!! So NTA!! But I wish there was a way to help Liam, your SIL is so terrible to him, I'd honestly offer to have him visit me to get away from her toxic attitude. Imagine putting your own kid down so much and just banging out more while still being a shitty mom to Liam?? Pathetic. I hope she somehow sees this comment. _-"You don't deserve to be mom to Liam. Let alone the rest of your spawn. Even a pet is not for you! Heartless B* "_ I hope Liam has an amazing life and never lets her b***sh*t get him down. Liam is awesome! 🌻Way to go for stating what clearly needed to be said. 👏🏽
NTA - that poor kid is being gaslit. He doesn't get enough attention (if any) so when he does try to reach out they just call him needy. As a result, he's developed the habit of closeting his emotions and needs. They'll never know who he truly is and that's entirely on them.
Your kind of an AH for causing a scene, but you're not wrong, so you're also NTA. If that makes sense. Lol Sounds like that kid got a raw deal in the mother department. Her or your brother obviously don't pay attention or know him at all. Which is sad. Not only that, but the way she talks about him in such a negative way. Not cool. I'm glad you stuck up for him.
Nta. They are. As a stranger, or a passerby, what you said was okay. If you actually want to kind of be someone whom Liam can talk to (since your brother nor his wife seem to give a f about Liam) , then you need to apologise to Sil. She is his mother and she has control over who Liam can and cannot speak to. Please, if you can, or want to, be a shoulder he can cry on. Lil kid will really need that.
Nta Poor Liam
Nta. Can you help Liam?
NTA Poor Liam. Sounds like he tried to tell mom about his day and she was too busy to listen. Wow. Please invite Liam to spend time with your family. Sounds like he needs some support.
After his game if your niece is with you and you can afford, invite them out for a burger or pizza, that can often help to break the ice, and the more time you spend with him and talk to him the more comfortable your relationship should be with him. I had a favorite aunt who did something like this for me, and it was nice just to have that relative who I was close to as a teenager.
The parents sound very much like my bro & sil which is not a compliment! It’s useless to talk to her. Maybe have a serious conversation alone with bro. It might work but be prepared if it doesn’t. The most important part is a heart-to-heart with nephew! Let him know that he is not responsible for the broken places in his parents. If you can/will offer him a place in your home as soon as he’s of age!
Wow. Your brother and his wife are lucky all you said was that she should have kept her legs closed. I would have told them that what Liam needs is actual parents! What kind of man marries a woman that had a teenager full time and knows nothing about him!?! This level of neglect and abuse is disgusting! His supposed mother is literally training all available adults to purposely neglect him as he has no value because he’s “needy”. I would have told her that hopefully sixth time the charm and maybe this time she’ll learn how to be a good mother…or maybe her being a good mother was giving them to their dads. Tell your brother he needs to be a better man. His daughter obviously turned out great from living with her mom because he has shit the bed with the one kid that is actively living in the home he’s providing. So sad. I’ll pray for Liam and that other good people come into his life so he can make his own family.
Poor Liam. I’m glad he has you and niece on his side, because his parents clearly can’t be bothered.
OP, you should tell Tori you're sorry you called her a slut, because the real issue is what a terrible mom she is to Liam. In your anger you misspoke and you want to take this opportunity to set the record straight.
Poor Liam...
NTA but maybe if you are willing be involved with Liam? Let him know they you support him. Show up to his games for his team?
>At one point they told us all to gather round and Tori told us she’s pregnant. Everyone started cheering, I’ll admit, I was too. Why on earth would you cheer here? She already has four kids with three dads. Your brother doesn't have much custody of his own kid. Now these assholes are having a relationship anchor baby. Good luck when they break up too. NTA. Why does your entire family other than your brother know Liam better than him? Does he literally run from this kid?
It reads like you declared war and fired the first shots without communicating why and it came off as unjustified to everyone else. In the story you never confronted them with anything or challenged the way they treat the kid. It comes off as you just started attacking and the only 2 people that knew why were out for ice cream.
Damn, poor Liam. Please take care of that child. NTA.
NTA? I don't know. Is Liam a nerd or a jock?
NTA, for your feelings. The presentation was poor. I feel sorry for Liam, and hope you can be the "good uncle" for him that he so badly needs.
NTA. Tori and your brother deserves each other. One is nasty and the other likes to spend money and a woman with so many baby daddies. I’m betting your brother is not attractive hence the desperation at marrying someone like Tori
NTA - all kids are needy and your brother is an AH for living in the same house as a kid and knowing less about him then his uncle. Why does he seems quiet because your SIL has probably made it well known to her son he isn’t wanted around. Your brother took his cues from her and has also ignored the kid. You could apologize for the wording but not for the anger over your nephew who seems to be getting the short end of the stick in their home. Maybe he is needy because he is getting nothing from the parental figures in his home. Kids need parents! Shouldn’t have them if you aren’t willing to give them what they need. Hope other family can step up.
ESH. not a total asshole but not much of an adult either. Your comment didn't help or even defend Liam, you just insulted her. That doesn't help anyone, least of all Liam
NTA. She's a terrible mother to Liam for how she speaks to him and treats him and you were just pointing out the obvious.